3 Brothers Roadshow at Agribition: Dwayne Faber, Jerod McDaniel & Vance Crowe

Vance Crowe [00:00:00] You know there's more vegans out there today than there are dairy farmers. And so we have Thanksgiving coming up. There's more people that are gonna sit at a Thanksgiving dinner table with an uncle that thinks dairy farmers abuse their cows than an uncle that's a dairy farmer.

Guest [00:00:15] This is the Vance Crow podcast.

Vance Crowe [00:00:19] Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. If you've been listening to the podcast for the last few weeks, you know that last week I was up at aggravation with Jared McDaniel and Dwayne Faber, and we hosted a live taping of a podcast that we were kind of calling the three brothers. The aggregation folks had invited us up to do something that had never been done at Canada's largest agriculture show, which was to record a live podcast in front of an audience. And Chris Lane and I had spoken about this about eight months ago, but it wasn't until just a few weeks ago that we worked it out that I could actually do this and Jared and Dwayne could come with me. Now, Jared and Dwayne were actually the perfect guides for me to go up to this Canadian agriculture show because while I know agriculture over my last five years of working at Monsanto and now working with a variety of different farm bureaus and farm organizations, I know agriculture pretty well, but for the most part, my knowledge has been on grain. Whereas this was predominantly a livestock show. It was really all about cattle and they had alpacas there. And I think throughout the week they were gonna have other different agricultural events that are really on the animal side, things like giant rodeo and I think they did some barrel racing. So in any case, it was a really different event than anything I had been a part of with agriculture before. And I was led there by Dwayne Faber, d Faber 84, the Twitter comedian, the the court jester that is able to say things in an interesting and unique way so that people can hear it and maybe get a new perspective.

Vance Crowe [00:01:52] And it is fantastic walking around with Dwayne if you have a sense of humility because as we walk around, there are so many people that recognize him from his interactions on Twitter that they come over and they want to talk and they want to tell him about how they first heard about him. And some of his favorite jokes, and many of them are husbands saying, you know what? My wife reads your stuff every day and she's always telling me what crazy thing you're saying. And sometimes they'd be young college women that are like, you're my favorite person on Twitter. So I, if you're around that, on the one hand you're looking at your buddy and you're thinking, man, wow, this is amazing. And then you start thinking like, what could I be doing to make people be that excited and interested to meet me? So it was really fun to be there with Dwayne. And in addition to that, Dwayne is actually a dual citizen. So he went to high school in Canada and has kept his citizenship all these years. So he understands what's going on with Canadian politics. He lives in Washington state. So he has this very different understanding and he is really a part of that tribe from the aspect of being a Canadian and being in agriculture. But there at the show we were predominantly around beef cattle. So there's a difference between the type of cattle that you typically raise for their milk and then you have other cattle that are used for their beef. And Dwayne is a, is has a dairy, so he's very into Holsteins. But you could also have Jersey or Guernsey, like they're all, all different kinds of cattle that are good at producing milk. But then on the other hand you have meat cattle.

Vance Crowe [00:03:24] So those would be things like your Angus that you're probably familiar Black Angus or Red Angus, or they could be Charlas or als. I get to see all these different breeds. And the different breeds have characteristics that make them more or less suitable for different types of environments. So certain states might have more Angus and then other states might be better suited for charlas just because of the lay of the land. What is the grass, how, how well do they marble under different conditions? And so this show is all about showing off which of the cattle look the most beautiful, the phenotypes. And I had not really seen anything like this outside of four H and in four H it was just a collection of people doing it for either just my county or my state. But this competition is a national competition. It is one that Canada takes great pride in. It's been around for over 50 years. There is a huge tradition of people bringing their beef cattle in to have them evaluated. And while you're walking around the stalls you get to see like a dairy milking station and there's a section for alpacas and we got to see bison while we were there. So it is this enormous livestock fair with all different kinds of livestock. But the thing that they are truly extraordinary with is cattle. And I happen to be up there with Jared McDaniel who is, you know, in a lot of ways a quintessential us cowboy. And he's running one of the fastest growing agriculture podcasts in in North America, certainly if not the world.

Vance Crowe [00:04:55] And he is really talking about issues that are relevant to farmers and ranchers and specifically he's a rancher of a rather large herd of cattle. And when we were walking around seeing all of these different stalls, the different parts of the show, it was fantastic because Jared deeply understood what are the challenges of show cattle because he used to show cattle and then the other type of cattle the way that Jared does it, where he's running a production, a commercial farm. So he is not just trying to raise cattle just to win ribbons, but he's also running a commercial organization. And a lot of the farmers, the cattle ranchers that were there, they did both too. They were raising some for show and some for commercial where they sell the the cattle to feedlots and those feedlots then, or they feed the cattle in feedlots and then they sell them to the meat packing plants. And so I was actually at this convention with two amazing guides and experts from the United States, but the most interesting thing about this was neither Jared nor Dwayne had ever been to to this event before. And so all of us going there was an adventure that we didn't really know what would happen. We didn't really know how all this would work out. We had met a guy through Twitter named Chris Lane who is the CEO of aggravation, but we didn't know him, right? We had just talked, I had talked to him on the phone. I don't think Jared and Dwayne had ever spoken to him on the phone. Only sent emails. And Chris and I had worked out an an arrangement for us to be able to do this podcast with Dwayne and Jared as well.

Vance Crowe [00:06:27] And it's the first time it's ever been done in aggravation. So he said, look, I can get you a venue, I can get you microphones and good speakers and I can, I can put you right near the bar, which it used to be called The Swamp. It's a really famous place at this convention. And, and so that's what we did. So we went there having only heard what it might be like and then imagining how will we put on a show that'll be worth people coming to watch it. And I have to say that I am really proud of what we put together. I think that this was pushing the envelope of what I personally was capable of doing. I learned a lot about shooting video, about recording audio in new scenarios. But I also learned a lot from sitting side by side with Jared McDaniel who runs a gigantically successful podcast that is listened to by thousands and thousands of people. And I get to learn how do you host things better? How do you become more dynamic and more flexible in how the conversation rolls? I had a fantastic time doing that. But even before that I got to see Dwayne Faber, the guy that is so good on Twitter that people know who he is and they come up to introduce themselves, actually do live standup. And he didn't just do live standup that he'd tried a whole bunch of times and had and been in front of a whole bunch of people. He was doing really specific comedy for the tribe of people that we were going to encounter up there. They were gonna be Canadian, they were gonna be connected with agriculture and they were gonna have certain ideas and concepts that they would find funny.

Vance Crowe [00:07:59] And so Dwayne had to actually gauge his audience, make what he was saying culturally appropriate and then still be able to pull off jokes that Jared and I are sitting behind him and you can watch us looking being like, I don't get it. But the crowd is roaring with laughter. And I hope you can pick that up on the audio that we have here. I am deeply, deeply impressed with how great the audio sound was. And a big part of that was because we got help from a guy that was from Direct Livestock Marketing Systems, which was a a group that get together and they film the cows and they film the bison. And so that way people can participate in an auction that aren't even live and in person so they can be all over the world presumably. So that guy actually saw us fumbling around with microphones trying to figure out how to use this giant AV system and he jumped in and he let us borrow equipment and he let us work on things. It was really great. So what you were about to see is rare and it is unique and it is a first time that we've ever done this and I am proud to have spent time with Dwayne and Jared. I am deeply grateful for Chris Lane who we met at that event and how much he was supportive of what we were trying to do there. And I'm really excited 'cause we get to bring a livestock show to you. So if you are not from agriculture, don't worry, this conversation is going to wrap around how do cattle ranchers feel about things like synthetic meat? Why is it that there are certain reforms that the industry says, Hey, this is the right way to do it, this is the way we wanna do it. Why are the cattle ranchers of the United States pushing back and what does that mean for Canadians?

Vance Crowe [00:09:35] The conversation ranges through a number of different topics and at a couple of different times you hear Jared and I kind of butt heads a little bit because we have a difference of opinion on how things should be done. But that made the conversation all that much more interesting and I was so glad that these guys were willing to come along on the ride with me to do this. And so if you like this and you're interested in seeing more, Jared McDaniel is at Ag Uncensored and he's got a great podcast and Dwayne Faber is d Faber 84 on Twitter. I have got to jump outta here and normally I do a little bit higher production stuff on this, but I am flying out to New York in the morning and I need to get ready. So I've got a lot of packing to do. I've been on the road a whole bunch this last month, but I'm loving it. Work is great and thank you so much. If you find that this thing is interesting, you like this interview, check out Vance Crowe dot com. There is a section on there about different subjects that I talk about, but there's also a contact form. So if you're interested in working with me or Jared and Duane, I can definitely put you in touch with them. So great that you're here and buckle in 'cause you're about to head to Regina Saskatchewan, Canada at the largest livestock show in all of Canada and one of the largest cattle shows in all of North America. Okay, good afternoon everybody. My name is Chris Lane. I am the CEO here at Canadian Western Egg Ion. And this is something special. We have never done this before, but thank you all for lending some time. We've got a few people that are gonna spend some time with us today that are, in my view anyway, leading the conversation around the issues in agriculture on on the newest platforms, including social media and YouTube.

Vance Crowe [00:11:18] It's been, it's been a vision of this organization for a long time to make sure that exhibition is always the best and most important platform for not only the business of agriculture, but the conversations happening in agriculture. We have a unique role to play. We are a platform, we're a window between the industry and the business of the industry and the public who are the end use consumers of what we do every day. So when I had the chance to talk to Vance about, you know, is there a role for someone like Vance to play in those conversations here at Ion? He's a long way from Ion, but through the beauty of social media and and technology, he's leading conversations in the industry that are really global. So we talked about a couple different ways that we could that, that we could do something together and this came together and then he had the idea of expanding it a little bit. So we've got a couple other people here too that are leaders in their own conversations in the world of agriculture. We have Jared McDaniel who's a beef rancher, and we have Dwayne Faber who's milking some cows in just across the line too. They're a unique collection of guys. I wonder you, you may have had the chance to talk to them over the last couple days of the show. They've got some things that I think they want to talk about. We're gonna have some fun doing it. And this is all being recorded for a podcast as well. So not only are we gonna have the conversation here, but I think the most important thing is, is that Aggravation is able to host a conversation that's going to reach a lot more people than are here today.

Vance Crowe [00:12:50] And that's something pretty special. So I'm gonna hand the white mic over to Dwayne Faber here. He's gonna warm us up and maybe we can give these guys an aggravation. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you everybody for coming out. We're glad you came out. Just out of curiosity, who here's on Twitter? Anybody on Twitter? Yeah, that's great. Great Twitter showing who's a beef farmer, beef farmers. We got lots of beef farmers. It seems to be that's the crowd out here. So we're thankful for being here. Yeah, I know it's been a great show for me. I already got 87 pens and so it's been a good show for me. I'm good to go on that. We're excited. Vance Crow is the owner and host of the Vance Crow podcast where he goes and interviews experts in many different fields. And so go and get him checked out on the podcast cast. And then we have the Ag Uncensored podcast with Jared McDaniel, and he's done a few podcasts recently where he's interviewed people that represent the beef checkoff and that can be a fairly controversial subject and he was able to dive into some of that. So go and check all those podcasts out. You did a great job with that. So, and as far as me, I don't have a podcast. I'm not that cool. I do have a Twitter and I have 36,000 people that follow me on Twitter recently, however, I was unfollowed by PETA on Twitter and that left me a little bit sad and confused, not as sad, as confused as the puppies in their kill shelter, but still a little bit sad and confused.

Vance Crowe [00:14:37] And so Twitter has been a great platform for me and I appreciate meeting everybody out here that came from that. I also wanted to mention that we're actually sponsored by the CN Railway. They're a sponsor of this. We're still waiting on the delivery of the check, but it's coming. Yeah, thi this show is impressive. It's a huge show, and I don't know if you guys caught it yesterday or not, but the three of us ran into Justin Trudeau at the conference and the three of us were sitting there talking to Justin and we realized that all three of us needed a passport and a map to find Regina. So we came out, talked to, talked to Justin and he, I told him, you gotta be a little bit careful around here, make sure you get vaccinated, make sure you get your lepto vaccination before you leave. And so he agreed to do that. I am Canadian. I am actually a Canadian citizen. My mother's a Canadian and she was a bit of a hippie and in case there was a Vietnam war, she wanted to make sure she could ship me to Canada. And so I maintained my Canadian citizenship. And so every day I would cross the border and I went to a small private school up in Canada in British Columbia. And so I too appreciate double doubles. I appreciate Crown Royal, I appreciate hockey night in Canada. In fact, I'm old enough to remember when, when Don Cherry hosted coaches corner. So that's that, that's how old I am. And there's a few moments in my life where I remember and recognize how Canadian I am.

Vance Crowe [00:16:16] And I had one of those moments when I went to college in California. And two months after I got to college, I had a ruptured appendix and I was very sick and I had to go to the er. And the state of the healthcare system at that time was that a lot of people who couldn't afford healthcare would go to the emergency room to get healthcare. And so in California there was a lot of Hispanic immigrants that would come and get healthcare in the emergency room. And so while I was sitting there waiting, I was rolling around in pain from a ruptured appendix. And so being the good Canadian that I am, I, I went out and I made sure that all the immigrants had a poppy. And so I handed out the poppies, but then I went in and I had the operation done and the next morning I was waking up and I was getting a shot of morphine every hour and a half. And so I went from the worst pain in my life. I mean the, this, this kind of pain to imagine what kind of pain this is. Imagine a Canadian hockey team doesn't win a Stanley Cup for like 25 years. That's the level of pain that I was suffering. And I was getting a shot of morphine every hour and a half. And finally I came to about a year or a year I came to about, I came to the day later and the nurse walked in and she said, there's something we need to ask you.

Vance Crowe [00:17:53] She said, we hear people say a lot of interesting things when they get put under with anesthesia. And there's a doctor, an anesthesiologist, and two nurses that are very curious because when we put you under and we're preparing for surgery, you yelled out, Hey, that's my gich. And in California we've never heard the word gich before and we're curious, what is the word gich? And so gich has made it all the way to California. And the vernacular from Canada is now understood all the way in California. I'm a father and I have three beautiful, lovely daughters. You can see that on Twitter. And there's a couple things that come with that. And one is, I, I hate all men. And the other part of that, my idea of what constitutes a swimsuit has changed dramatically. I'm a big fan of the one piece. I'm, I'm a big fan of the one piece. And so right now we're dealing with our youngest, well actually all of our daughters now, they want horses. And part of my job as a dairy farmer is to make sure my daughter doesn't have horses. And she said the other day, dad, can we have a horse? And I said, no, honey, as as a poor American dairy farmer, we only have animals that pay for the food they eat. And she said, without blinking an eye, dad, then why do we own cows?

Vance Crowe [00:19:26] And so she may have a point, I, I may need to go get a horse. So we're also potty training our kids or our youngest kid, and she's three years old and it's been a constant battle. And the other day I heard from the bathroom, my daughter say, Hey dad, I'm doing it. I'm peeing just like you. And so I walk into the bathroom and there she is in a puddle of pee standing in front of the toilet. And I was giving my daughter a hard time and telling her that that's not how we do it and we need to make sure that it goes in the toilet and not around the toilet. And my wife walks in and she says, honey, what's going on? And she said, I said, well, look, she, she peed and she peed all over the toilet here and all over the floor. And my, my wife lovingly looked at me and said, easy there. Hot shot. You're only at about 70% yourself. Thank you everybody. So I wanna welcome everybody to today's podcast. I'm certainly glad you're here. My name is Vance Crowe and ordinarily I run a podcast called the Vance Crow Podcast. And what I do on this show is I try and interview experts that are at the black belt level, who is somebody that is clearly a leader in their field, somebody that has mastered a skill. And I've done everything from Brazilian juujitsu martial artists that have won world championships all the way out to people that have developed GMO Cotton.

Vance Crowe [00:21:00] I've had dairy farmers on. And all of this got started because I worked for Monsanto for about five years. And if any of you are, how many of the people in this room are familiar with Monsanto? Now how many of you're familiar? There are some people that have some pretty strong feelings about Monsanto. I was the guy they sent out to go talk to those people. And so in that job I realized that most of what we know, most of what is built around us that is truly wonderful came because there were experts in the world that spent most of their lives trying to learn a trade, trying to learn how to advance your field. And that's why coming to a thing like aggravation is so extraordinary and so special. I mean, we are literally getting to come to one place and see some of the finest cattle genetics in the world. And I can walk through each of these stalls and we did for the last two days and find out why do the Angus people think that theirs are the best? What, what's up with the charlas? How come this is a field that people cluster around? And, and it has been a true honor to see that mastery alongside with me. Of course, you guys have just met Dwayne Faber, but also as Jared McDaniel. Jared runs probably the fastest growing ag podcast in the United States right now. And it is talking about some of the controversial issues that are going on. And I'm gonna hand it over to Jared to explain a little bit about his background. But what I wanna spend most of the time doing is offering a mirror to aggravation. We brought up a dairy farmer and a cattle rancher from the United States, and all we wanted to do was to learn and to be here.

Vance Crowe [00:22:37] So we're gonna talk about what did we see from our perspective? It's not that our perspective has any more weight than other people, but I know that this is something that you all have created over generations and we wanna give some feedback on what we saw, what we think the issues are, what we found you guys were talking with us about, and maybe that that can enrich all of our experiences. So without further ado, Jared, why don't you talk a little bit about your podcast and who you are.

Guest [00:23:03] Alright, I'm Jared McDaniel. I'm from Oklahoma. If you can't tell by the sweet Southern draw that I try to have or not have, I'm I'm, I'm from not here. One, one thing that I think is really cool and Vance pointed this out is what's, I understand this is 49 years old. Next year will be the 50th. That's a really cool tradition that a lot of people, you know, you gotta get through a lot of bumps along the way to get 50 years down the road. But also something I've seen about aggravation that I really appreciate is how everybody comes together. And I hear a lot of stories on of how social everything is, but then I even know people that would talk about the the Swamp. Have you guys ever heard of the Swamp? I know a guy met his wife in the swamp and I was thinking, well what were you doing that you met a wife in the swamp? But Anyway, it's, it's really cool to be here. I do the Agon Censored podcast. That is, it's something that I started kind of a passion project. I just wanted to be able to get out and talk to people and do it in a way that without restrictions. Now sometimes you say things that aren't really nice or maybe not nice for people to hear, but it's sometimes that conversation has to happen. So, you know, in the United States we've had a lot of problems with Packer concentration, a lot of the same things that you guys go through. We battle the same battles. So it, it's really cool to get up here and visit with people about what's happening in their industry. 'cause really it's, it's our industry in the whole North American continent.

Guest [00:24:34] So that's a little touch of what happens in my podcast. I farm, I farm and ranch, so I'm right there with you guys, you know, anything that that happens, it happens to all of us. So with that,

Vance Crowe [00:24:46] So let's, let's start off here. And this can go to either Dwayne or Jared. You guys have been to shows in other parts of the, in of the United States and around, what have you seen here that surprise you, you didn't expect to see it at aggravation? To me, the sheer size of it, it's impressive. I, I go to several dairy expos and conferences and, and, and they're unique and special in their own right. But as far as facilities and diversity here, that was pretty impressive to me is being able to see all of that. So that was the first thing that struck me. And then also the amount of animals here. It's amazing how many cattle are actually here. And, and for me that's not super familiar with the, the beef industry. It was fun to walk around to see the different types of breeds and talk to several of the, the ranchers and the producers. So yeah, it's, it's impressive. I'm, I'm glad we made the trip up here. So

Guest [00:25:37] I'm pretty excited about the sheer volume of coffee and beer. You can't, like, you seriously can't get enough. There's, if you, if you have too many beers, there's a coffee stand real close and it's just really cool that, you know, they meet the needs of the people that are here with that, just in the sheer volume of cattle. It's really cool to see the strength of organizations when you see the, the Angus Charla, the Semial, the Hereford, some old traditional breeds, even some new ones. You know, I saw some black Herefords out there. That's kind of a new thing that's out. But it's cool that people are still willing to go that extra mile to have, you know, a breed specific show. And we're going to keep doing that out of tradition. And also it maintains the integrity of the show 'cause you have everybody come together. And then finally, I guess it's the, the whoever wins the Supreme Award gets it all. And I think that's really cool.

Vance Crowe [00:26:29] So one of the things that happened as Dwayne and Jared and I are walking around is that Dwayne would ask a question and I would kind of wince after I'd heard him do it a couple times because people would either have a really positive response or a really negative response. And I was not expecting that. Dwayne, do you know what question I'm referring to? I'm pretty sure I do. Go ahead. So I, I'm curious, as a dairy producer, I asked everybody, what is your opinion on genomics? And genomics has turned the dairy world upside down. And I have family members that are involved in the registered dairy industry and they watched value in some of their cows and cow families just plummet because they did not test well genomically, they would go out and buy an animal for $75,000 and they go and run the papers and, and now it's a $5,000 cow. And I think that's something that is going to be coming to the beef world. We're still on the front end of it, but it, it's revolutionized the dairy industry and in a lot of ways genomics has been a way for dairy farmers to take back their breed. Because for years we, we kept getting bulls that were throwing animals that were bigger and bigger and bigger and they would win in the show ring, but they wouldn't perform well on the commercial level. And they would be cows that would go down and do the splits in the milking parlor or they would wouldn't get up out of a stall. And and so genomics was us saying, Hey, we want a shorter framed or smaller framed shorter stature cow that produces well and lasts long.

Vance Crowe [00:28:02] And so we are able to pick the traits that are gonna perform well on the commercial herd level. And so to me it's revolutionized the registered breed by us. And, and it's also limited the stud companies need to go and raise thousands of bulls and then breed the cows and then wait for the daughters to come up and see what the daughters look like. Instead they can go and pull a hair sample and a week later they can predict within a fairly close range how well that bull is going to perform and how well that bull is going to compare to his peers. And, and I think that that will come eventually to, to the beef industry and it's something to, to be aware of and to think about. And yeah, so that's kinda what I saw

Guest [00:28:47] And something that the dairy industry is really good about is shoveling all their extra animals that they don't want right into the beef pipeline. So that's something that we'd like to talk about is maybe if, if, if one day we can stop and stem the tide of all the half Holsteins that are coming around. And I know that, you know, beef guys, and I think you guys are probably with me on this, we would like to have higher prices and one thing that keeps the prices, you know, come what stifled is the amount of beef now coming from the dairy industry and something that Dwayne and I discovered, and we've even talked about it, it might be kind of scary what the future would hold for the beef industry from sources of outside things. You've got a dairy calves and then also you've got all the fake meat. And I, I don't even even know how many fake meat companies are there now. It's like if you have some excess dog food capacity, you just shove it over into the meat side. But

Vance Crowe [00:29:42] Yeah. Yeah, and that's something that I can speak to too. In the dairy industry in the United States, we have way too many heifer calves. A lot of dairy producers are using sex semen on their heifers and on their milk cows. And we ended up with a heifer population that was way too big. And so to combat that, now a huge percentage of dairies now are using beef semen on their dairy cows because there's value now in those day old calves, a Holstein bull calf today, probably by us sells for $20. Whereas if I can go and breed or to any of typically either Angus or Char and they're worth $150. And so it's a way for dairy farmers to capture a higher dollar value on these calves that, and also limit the number of heifers that are entering the milk line and entering the pipeline to, to limit the milk in the national herd. And that's some of the reason why we had low prices too, was too many heifers coming in. And so for us to lower that, there's been a natural transition into the beef world and you're a hundred percent right. It does have an impact on the beef market. And I mean a lot of the feeders and packers, they love it because, and they're encouraging it because it's gonna limit the market even on pure bred beef calves. Yeah.

Guest [00:30:55] The, the feeders and packers, well the packers particularly love it as much as anything because it gives them more supply that they could then also use the bottleneck to kind of choke the market. I think that one thing that you have to look at in the, in the current beef setup is where are we at in the industry of cattle versus beef? 'cause one thing that I've, that I've noticed and something that is becoming more apparent is we have two sides of this industry. We've got the cattle industry, the people that raise them, and then we also have the beef industry, the people who process wholesale and sell. And you go to chicken, you go to pork, you go to these other industries and they've already vertically integrated and a lot of the people that work in them are no longer independent. They're basically just somebody who shows up stamps the clock goes to work for the company, but the beef business has been able to maintain their integrity and maintain their independence. And it's kind of, you gotta fight for that. And I feel like that that's something that it's gonna have to happen eventually. We're gonna have to figure out how to straighten out the problem of this bottleneck where all the cattle are basically discounted because whoever has the control can decide what they're worth. 'cause what do you, you're not gonna park the cattle and come back to 'em in a month. You're stuck with whatever you're gonna get. Jared,

Vance Crowe [00:32:06] Do you think the, a big part of the lack of creating one long pipeline is the fact that you can't scale cattle production too much in one space. I mean, there's a limited amount of space that you can, you, you, there's a limited number of cows that you can raise on a certain amount of space.

Guest [00:32:23] Yeah, and I think that maybe confinement feeding, I mean that's gonna be something that is even confinement, cow feeding. I guess I should clarify that. People put 'em up, you go, you know, but we're are we just gonna keep making more of a problem? I don't know the answer to that. That's a question that I've always asked. Like, I mean, essentially we are making cattle just cheap and easy because that's what the consumer wants or that's what we're told the consumer wants, is they want it cheap and they want it, you know, everything's great. But that also means that the people who take care of them have to live cheap and easy. And I'll ask you this, how many packers have you seen with a part-time job? None. Because there, I mean we're, there's a lot of cattle guys that go have a second job to make it work. I'm up here in Canada to make it work. I mean there's, there's a lot of other things guys are doing to try to keep in the cattle business, but

Vance Crowe [00:33:18] Yeah, I do you think there's gonna be consolidation on that level or not? Because I mean, we see in the dairy industry, we've, we've not been like the pork and the chicken indu industry for a lot of years just because of the ability to consolidate that many cows on one location. But you're starting to see it more and more where there's groups now in the dairy industry that control 40, 50,000 cows. Yeah. And trying to work their way up the value chain vertically integrate, start owning powder plants or cheese plants or whatever that may be. Well,

Guest [00:33:47] Who, whoever adopts it is obviously gonna benefit the most, the people that jump on board. But anytime you kind of con consolidate that power, you also take it away from the people that are still in the industry fighting to remain on a, on a smaller scale.

Vance Crowe [00:34:01] Yeah. And

Guest [00:34:01] I don't, I personally think that there's a certain amount of that already built into the business.

Vance Crowe [00:34:06] So why don't packers own cows or why don't they own feedlots or

Guest [00:34:12] Well it's cow

Vance Crowe [00:34:12] Calf operations.

Guest [00:34:13] Well it's easier to let everybody else lose money on the Brian than it is to take the, take it yourself. That's my opinion.

Vance Crowe [00:34:19] Yeah. Yeah. And and the dairy industry for us, I mean these calves, they're byproduct.

Guest [00:34:24] Well, right.

Vance Crowe [00:34:25] And that's the fear too. And that's the risk that these, you know, as the dairy industry in the US we're gonna continue to breed these beef calves and flood the market.

Guest [00:34:33] Well flooding the market with that, but also, it's something I alluded to earlier. What do you think about fake me? Like where do you, where do you guys think this is going? I mean, Vance lives, he, he lives outside of our bubble of my bubble of the being in the beef industry. So like what's your, what's your opinion on advance like that?

Vance Crowe [00:34:50] So I had a chance in the last couple of weeks to go to a major farm organization and they brought in a panel of people to talk about fake meat. And what I noticed was all of the people that they put on there were actually raising their hands really proud that they had never tried the impossible burger. And this like struck me as as pretty odd because if you have never tried something, you have no idea whether it will disrupt you or not. And I, I like my having tried it myself, right? The actual fake meat fans tried the fake burger with, with Dwayne. And I did not, you know, I, I don't, I don't actually like it very much, but I can talk about at, at a very high fidelity why I don't like it. But at the same time, I actually spent the last few years traveling all over the United States talking with scientific organizations like at Harvard and MIT and Berkeley and an organization that everybody here, if you're concerned about fake meat, should look up called I-G-E-M-I-G-E-M stands for the International Competition of genetically engineered machines. Every year, 10,000 students, college students, undergrads that have not been told what they can and can't do with science get together and they push the edges of synthetic biology and they're doing wild things, things that you couldn't imagine but you would love, like for example, I one time saw a, a young team from China that had come up with a way to get bacteria to express a magnetic property. And that magnetic property allowed the bacteria to consume essentially heavy metals in water, collect them all together and then you could go scoop them off of the top.

Vance Crowe [00:36:27] Those same students are ideologically very interested in creating synthetic meat. And the way that I believe that this is going to come about is not through the front door. It is going to be exceptionally difficult to create meat that has the same fiber, the same texture, the same taste. But you don't actually have to do that to really disrupt the meat industry. What you have to do it to disrupt the meat industry would be to create a yeast that for all of the sugars that it eats, it now produces as a byproduct the same way it does with alcohol enzymes and amino acids that equal a whole protein. Once you've done that and you have this, let's just say it's a sludge, you can put that into pet food and now you can start cutting out that part of the market that the beef industry sells into because you have a, a pet food that you can now advertise as humane or no animals were killed for this. And this is the, the reason that I'm talking about this in such long distances is that this is the thing that you should be prepared for. It's the back door, not the front door. The, the steak and the burger is a Rolex that's going to be very difficult to replicate, but those bottom parts of the edges of the margin, that's where the real danger is. I, I I think,

Guest [00:37:41] Yeah, well once you start taking away some of the, where the off all cuts and some of the rendering plants, like where that goes, you're gonna take away a lot of, a lot of meat that goes into the system or you, well let's put it away, you're gonna take away where the system needs the meat. So I think that that's something that definitely you have to watch. Another thing that I, that I know that I'm not a fan of is, at least right now is kind of the push for the RFID, the animal mandatory ID on stuff. I think that isn't, I think we need to get to where you can trace cattle, where you can find out where they came from. But Dwayne has a big deal where, you know, the dairy really loves the id, but I like old school ID wherever, you know, whenever you went to tag a calf and that cow would try to run you in or under a pickup, you remember that's crazy. Number 69. She's, she's crazy. And that was how you idd her from that on forward. There was no fancy chip, you just knew who she was.

Vance Crowe [00:38:40] Yeah, well, and

Guest [00:38:43] Everybody's been there. You've been running from a cow and you look around and you just hope she's not right behind you.

Vance Crowe [00:38:49] I mean, I think, I think the reality is the RFID thing is going to come in, it's just a matter of time in the, in the states we're getting pushed for it. There's a lot of outlets that are trying to fight it. The dairy in the dairy industry, we use RFID probably on 60% of the herds already. And so for us to use it for an identification program, I don't think it'll be much of a stretch. And quite frankly, we, we had an outbreak in Washington state, the state that I am from, and we had mad cow come into Washington State from Canada, we still love you. Oh,

Guest [00:39:21] You're blaming them. We, they're we're our guests, we're guests in their country and you're literally blaming them. Nice. The,

Vance Crowe [00:39:29] And, and so our FID though through that, we have the ability now to track those cows where they come from and stop the spread of a disease. And it's only a ma it's not a matter of if it happens, it's a matter of when it happens, we're going to have another disease outbreak at some point again. And being able to track those animals with RFID is the future and it's where we need to go. And you know, it's a, it's a little bit funny. I was pushed to, to go and get a brand because I had a couple cows I bought, had brands and I lost the papers and I brought those, those cows to the auction market and they treated me like I was a cattle ruster trying to steal these cattle because I did not have a brand. And so the brand inspector said, well just go and get your own brand. And so I did. And the next time I came in, I didn't have a paper, but I had a cow now with two brands and I said, well here's the, here's the cow I stole because as soon as I put my brand on there, then, then now officially she's mine. And, and that kind of a system is antiquated and it needs to be replaced. And to me, RFID is that system.

Guest [00:40:33] Well it it's antiquated and unless you're the guy who likes to borrow cattle,

Vance Crowe [00:40:39] Why, why don't

Guest [00:40:40] You like our, it seems it's, I mean like

Vance Crowe [00:40:42] Just outside's perspective, it

Guest [00:40:44] Doesn't make sense to me why

Vance Crowe [00:40:45] You wouldn't want RFID.

Guest [00:40:46] It, it's easier to trace. Here's, here's why. And this may be a little tinfoil hat, but I think that if you are able to trace that animal back, you can be great. A lot of great things can happen from it. But let's, let's explore the negative things. For example, you now decide that you only want an animal to eat X, Y, z or you only want it to be raised this way, or you want it to perform a certain way. Now you can take this animal and you can say, this animal can tie it back to this producer. They don't meet specs. So I no longer want to take animals from this person. Or you start to backwardly backwards, select in the industry where you can now control the, you can control the supply by not even being part of it. And now you've given somebody absolutely ident identification to go out and then control the supply. So if you look at how the, the packing and the back end of the industry has, they just find new ways to control the front. And this is to me a red herring of, I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, but we should find a way to do it that doesn't then add more leverage to the back end of the industry because they've already got enough in my view.

Vance Crowe [00:41:49] But don't you think the inverse is also true or it gives somebody the opportunity to sell a cow for a higher premium because they've done a better job and, and it it performs better and the packer can track that animal all the way through.

Guest [00:42:02] I I envy your optimism about the packing industry.

Vance Crowe [00:42:07] Well, and, and some of what we're doing now too with breeding, you know, beef on dairy. The packers are keeping the information on every single sire now. And they're taking these carcasses and they're saying, well this sire now is grading out consistently better than another sire. And so that information and that data to them is unique and that's being provided by these animals that are coming out of the dairy industry. And and they don't have that when they're killing cows from a commercial operation that they have no idea who the sire is and, and where it's coming from. And so, I mean, there's value in that data for them. And RFID to me has that ability to separate yourself.

Guest [00:42:47] I'll just hand 'em a piece of paper that says, this baby came from old 69, watch out.

Vance Crowe [00:42:52] She's crazy.

Guest [00:42:53] She's just like her mother. You know, something that, something else that we've noticed as we've walked around and, and I, I've really liked that there's young people at this event, a lot of young people taking care of cattle. And I think it's very important to note that the young people are involved here. 'cause you really gotta start thinking, where are we gonna find our leaders for tomorrow? And places like this, they're a great place to capture the attention and give people the experience. I just interviewed Temple Grandad on the podcast and one thing that stuck with me that she said was, you've got to expose young people to these things. You know, so much everybody's on this, they're on their phone, they look down, they don't even, they walk into the walls because they don't see what's going on around them. They put that down and go out and they're out shoveling manure out of, out of sawdust or, or wood chips. That's a real experience. That's something that they are gaining from a screen. And that's something that is really cool about what is going on here that's tradition that should be preserved. And I think it's great.

Vance Crowe [00:44:00] Yeah, I mean the four HFFA, we were walking around, you know, watching all these kids studying for oral reasons, right? What a valuable skill. I, I did oral reasons in the dairy world and in the dairy industry. Went to World Dairy Expo, went to Europe. And it's valuable to have those skills, to have an opinion and then represent that opinion. And particularly for us in agriculture, we're gonna need to be more proactive. We're gonna need to go out and represent our industry, whether it's via Twitter or via podcast, you know, in the dairy industry, we're particularly vulnerable to that. I mean, really every dairy is one YouTube video away from going out of business or not having a for their milk. You have an employee that films another employee kicking a calf and that goes viral. You, you're out of business. And that's something that every dairy farmer is cognizant of. And so we have to set the narrative. And I mean, even on Twitter, I had it where there was a animal cruelty video that comes out about Fair Oaks, fair Oaks Farm. They do a fantastic job. They're leaders in the industry as far as animal care and animal welfare. And even they had an issue because you're dealing with people and, and you can train people. And yet people still do dumb things. And I was, I had several people reach out to me that weren't involved in the agriculture world and they private messaged me and said, well, what's your opinion on this situation? What, what really happened? What is the truth? And to me that's powerful because it shows that people don't right away go and say, well this video is a hundred percent accurate and dairy farms kick their cows and beat up their cows all day long every day.

Vance Crowe [00:45:38] And so having those connections with people where you lead first with I'm a person first. And then also by the way, I'm a dairy farmer. I make a living with, with cattle, with cows. My kids are involved in the operation and we do our best every day to be the, take the best care of these animals that we can. And, and that's something that we all need to be working on and encourage each other in and build up each other in, in doing that because it's a battle that's fought every day.

Guest [00:46:05] So what about if your kids were kicking the cows? Is that okay?

Vance Crowe [00:46:09] If I kick my kids in return, then it's better. It, it evens out. So do you think

Guest [00:46:15] Activism is something that is

Vance Crowe [00:46:16] Just inherent in

Guest [00:46:17] All of agriculture and

Vance Crowe [00:46:18] It will be forever? Or do you think this is just

Guest [00:46:20] A

Vance Crowe [00:46:21] Fad that will go away over time? Absolutely. It's gonna be inherent forever, right? You, you have, and I think it only grows and I think a place to look is Europe, right? I mean Europe is typically 10 years ahead of us culturally and over there it's becoming more and more of an issue too. And quite frankly in Canada, a lot of the activists are even more aggressive than in the states. I mean, up in BC just across the line from me, there were busloads of activists that roll onto a, you know, a pig operation and basically just set up on the farm and just fill the lawn and fill the barns and try and storm the barns. And we haven't seen that level of activism in the US but that day is coming and it's gonna continue to come because you have people that are so disconnected from us that believe that animals are sent sentient beings and we're never gonna convince them otherwise. And so that's a cultural divide that you're never going to overcome. And so we have to work hard every day to show that we do treat animals with care and respect.

Guest [00:47:21] And I think, I think that's something that we all try to do with our social media platforms is we're all pretty open. And I know that that's something that even Dwayne has mentioned, whenever you are that open, you open yourself up to being a target. And that's something we're all cognizant of. I mean, I don't know what makes those people tick. In fact, if they showed up in one of my barns, I would close it and then say politely, can you just go ahead and clean that while you're in there? Because there's a lot of crap laying around. But I think that, I think one or two days in a barn cleaning it and they'd be like, you know what, these guys can do whatever they want to animals 'cause they have to deal with this.

Vance Crowe [00:47:53] What do you, when you think about the type of person that spends part of their life advocating against animal agriculture, what is it that's driving them? Why, why are they motivated to do this? I

Guest [00:48:05] I think attention, I think it's all has to go back to they want attention for whatever their cause is. And their cause is probably to make money. And that's as simple as it is. Wait,

Vance Crowe [00:48:14] You don't think that there are people that are like motivated by their love of animals?

Guest [00:48:20] No. Well, yes, they love animals, but they also love getting paid to showcase these things. 'cause I don't think you have a whole busload of people that on their own dime went out and like found this farm.

Vance Crowe [00:48:33] No, man, I disagree completely. Like I I I think there are lots of activists out there that are making money, but if you ever read a Peter Singer book where he is describing the deep ethical reasons for being a vegan, like people read that and it, and it is, it is something that changes something inside of them. And they say in, in my opinion, they say, if I advocate for this, cause my life has meaning. And everybody that is involved in advocating for agriculture should understand that meaning because it's the, it's it's not the same, right? They're different things. But the same reason that somebody like Andrew Campbell fresh air farmer gets up and goes and does that is 'cause it gives his life meaning, it, it makes something happen. And so I think you're missing the boat if you think that it's only about money. I I think what's interesting is, so you have the anti or the vegans or the, and and typically it's a left-leaning tribe, but I come from a very green area of the country and it's been interesting to watch because there's been a tribe inside that now that have has embraced butchering. I mean, we have tons of, or several butchers at, you know, long hair dreadlocks and they got big beards. And the cool thing now is to be a butcher. And so we're capturing some of that tribe back again. That's coming back and saying, Hey, I really want to know where my food comes from. I want to to touch, feel, and be able to taste the meat and see the, the, the process from the start to the very finish.

Vance Crowe [00:50:06] And so that is a fringe that that vegan group and it's small, but we're also gaining momentum from every tribe and every group of people out there that are coming to our side saying, no, I want to know more about where my food comes from. I want to know more about the beef industry. And, and I mean there's even commercials now talking about dog food and talking about your dog's not a vegan, you know, feed it like the wolf that it is. I mean, that is an ideology and a and a view that is out there too. That's being pushed more and more too. So we should be proud of it. We should be embrace it. I mean, you, you don't see coyotes going out and, and eating non GMO corn. I mean, they're going out there and, and they're, they're tearing cows or cows or wolves wherever you're at. But I mean, they're tearing animals apart and, and that's what nature is. And, and we are no different. You've

Guest [00:51:00] Never seen a coyote chase a cabbage. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:51:04] Yeah.

Guest [00:51:05] Now one, one of the, one of the favorite things that, that I think we've had a time doing is, is just getting to know everybody here, getting to know, you know, all of the, the different facets. It was really cool when we walked through the, the food aisle, the, the where people were preparing and they even had cool things like you could keep your beer cold in an ice fishing thing. I don't know, to me that doesn't, I dunno how you don't just set 'em on the ice, but hey, it was that kind of like exposure to new things. Also for the people who are here showing animals, they get to see that side of the culture and a ton of little kids walking around. That's, that's the exposure that that needs to happen because if those kids see normal everyday livestock handling and how it all works, then they'll carry that with them. So when you talk about how we can do things, maybe we could just continue to introduce that to new kids.

Vance Crowe [00:51:58] So Dwayne, you are in the Seattle area, right? And so there are people that have pretty strong feelings about what you're doing about dairying and can you talk about experiences that you've had where somebody approached you and they felt one way about a dairy and then your conversation led them some other different direction? Yeah. About 10 years ago I was showing cattle or cows at the fair just outside of Seattle. And a soccer mom came up to me and she said, do you use hormones on your cows? And I said, yeah, we do. And she asked, do you drink the milk from the cows that you use the hormones on? And I said, yep. And she, and then I started twitching and trying to bite my ear and my, my road to the advocate world was a, was a rocky start. But no, there, there, there is that contact. And to me that is the avenue for a lot of people in the city to see cows for the first time to touch cows for the first time is the county fairs, is the fairs just outside of Seattle is aggravation. Right? And we need to encourage that. We need to support that. And, and that is one way that we do it. There's also a lot of farm tours that go on bus bringing kids, school kids to the farms. And, and to me social media, social media is a way for people to, to see and, and get a, you know, a a the buddy seat on the tractor or, or a window into the milking parlor. It's a way for people to get connected. You know, there's more vegans out there today than there are dairy farmers.

Vance Crowe [00:53:31] And so we have Thanksgiving coming up. There's more people that are gonna sit at a Thanksgiving dinner table with an uncle that thinks dairy farmers abuse their cows than an uncle that's a dairy farmer or someone that can speak intelligently about the dairy industry and how well we do take care of the cows that we have. And so that is the reason for being out there and, and for letting people know what we do and, and making those touches.

Guest [00:53:56] And, and I'll say this about, you know, when you talk about getting out there and get your message, don't be afraid to go out and do stuff just like this or go start a podcast or be involved in the world of agriculture because there's so few of us. If you really look around, Dwayne makes a great point. There's there every day there's less and less. I mean, I know where I'm at rural America and I think I've heard the same thing about rural Canadian communities. They get smaller as everybody gets bigger, there's less families, there's less money to the schools. You know, there's just, there's less of everything 'cause people are doing more, we're more efficient, we're doing things better. So all these positive things that happen in the industry also have a negative effect. And I know that's, that's a huge thing is what are we gonna do with the upcoming rural versus urban divide? Because that you gotta ask yourself that it's great that we can all, you know, somebody survives and grows and expands and they become like the farmer or you know, the rancher in an area. What's left? I mean, what do you guys think, what do you think about the rural urban?

Vance Crowe [00:55:00] So I'm on the coast, right? And, and I think in 20 years there won't be many dairies on the coast. I mean, there's too many people on the coast and they're gonna get pushed into the center of the country.

Guest [00:55:09] You think you, you think they're going just, they're shoving 'em out to the dust bowl? I

Vance Crowe [00:55:13] Think so. And I mean it's not necessarily out of, you know, I mean some of it's gonna be just the urban pressure where they farmers can now sell their their land for big dollars too. So they can sell their land for big dollars and they can move to the west where, I mean my corn comes from South Dakota. I mean it has to be on a rail. I mean it's the most expensive corn in the entire United States because we have to ship it in and truck it in and it makes sense to have the animal units in the areas where the feeds are. You know, it's similar to, I was talking to a rancher today and about the cattle here look amazing. And some of it is the cattle are where the grain is and it makes sense to have the cows right beside the grain and on the grain. And I think, you know, you can truck and ship beef easier than you can milk and there's always gonna be a little bit of, you know, there's gonna be a few dairies on the coast, but for the most part, the majority of it, especially all the commodities are gonna be centered in the Midwest. And I think that vertical integration that you're seeing in all these other industries, we're gonna see it in the American dairy industry as well. I think that there's an interesting thing that's happening probably at a place like aggravation, right? Like a huge percentage of what agriculture is about is being slow moving. And the biggest benefit of being slow moving is that it means that your culture doesn't change very fast. And so the places where culture changes really quickly, they are the most flexible. They're the ones where their values are gonna change, what they're interested in is gonna change. But when you think about a 50 year tradition of something like aggravation, you now have stories that stack on top of each other for generations.

Vance Crowe [00:56:51] And as far as I can tell from my experience being in ag for the last five years, but then living in the city for the rest of it is there's very, very few places that are cultural factories that are going on in the city that are like this. So because an event like this brings together people from all different aspects of agriculture, but they all come together as one big tribe of ag. There's no one city tribe, there's no one tribe of just millennials, right? Like you can, they break down into much, much smaller fine grained things. And so there is a cultural staying power that even though the cities, the small towns that are out there might go away, the the rural culture has more staying power than I think agriculture realizes.

Guest [00:57:37] Well. And that's one thing about whenever you walk around these events, especially like with a guy like Vance who is, he understands the ag world, but he also is more of an urban viewpoint. It's really cool because we will be looking at something and he'll ask a question and it might be something we've never thought about. And you, when you open your world and you expand it and you become friends with people that aren't in your tribe, I, I know I personally learn a bunch just hanging out with him. And I think that that's, that's something that social media has allowed is that cross connection with, you know, where I'm from. It's very isolated, it's very flat. It, my, this is like home to me 'cause it's just flat, but there's also, there's no people. And getting out and getting that exposure and getting that connection through social media has been awesome. And it is, it's allowed me to expand my tribe to include people like Vance, which has been phenomenal. So,

Vance Crowe [00:58:31] So some of what we're seeing in the dairy industry too is these massive or dairy farmers basically getting together and forming a big corporation that milks 20,000 cows. Would you ever do something like that where the margins get to the point where you can't afford to, to milk a thousand cows or to to free range 500 cattle and, and join a large corporation and own shares in a company instead of being the the farmer or the rancher?

Guest [00:59:00] I I think, I think me personally, I probably wouldn't probably just 'cause I couldn't play well with others long enough to get it done. But I understand what you're saying. There's a certain point where it's like you can only fight that battle so long and if you can't, if you can't defeat the enemy or the enemy being just the natural progression, yeah, you may have to make adjustments. I mean, I see this in all the businesses. It's like you get consolidations, you join with others, you make bigger and then, you know, it's just like, where is the end of that line? At what point are we out of blood to get from the turnip? I, I feel like we're gotta be getting close to that, but probably every generation has thought, there's no way this can get bigger. There's no way this can get more efficient. And yet it does and it just keeps happening. So those are questions that I ask and try to figure out for like, you are my kids gonna come back? Is there anything gonna be left out here for 'em? I don't, I don't know that I don't have the answer, but I know I keep looking for it. Yep.

Vance Crowe [00:59:55] And I mean all the attacks that are coming to either the beef or the dairy industry, whether it's fake beef or regulation or labor issues, there's always gonna be an industry. And so I think we have to constantly ask ourselves how do we survive and be a part of that industry and how do we survive? And part of it to me is being a low cost producer is finding a niche, either a niche where you're gaining more on the other end from the consumer or also having a competitive advantage where you have lower in input costs, cheaper input costs. And, and some of that may be where you join a, a major corporation that that is able to lower their cost of production. And for me, I try not to remain naive to it. I I'd like to be independent myself and, and have my own operation, but at the same time, if that is the only way to be involved in the industry and I think potentially we're heading that way, then we need to think about that and be aware of it and, and look for those opportunities.

Guest [01:00:52] What, what power would you have as a producer if you were just one of many?

Vance Crowe [01:00:57] I think what you're going to get is when you can fit all the producers in one room, then you have power when, because part of the beef industry is, it's so bifurcated then there's so many individual producers with so many different opinions that they have trouble representing themselves. Yeah.

Guest [01:01:15] You

Vance Crowe [01:01:15] Know, and you have experience with that. Just looking at the groups, I mean there, there's some odd beef representative groups out there that believe some odd things that are completely counter to what the major ones believe. Right. And, and when you can, when when you have somewhat, and it's a bad word, monopoly, when you have fewer producers that control the production, then you have the ability to control market and be able to get the price that you want and have a profitable price.

Guest [01:01:41] So if you can't beat 'em, you join them

Vance Crowe [01:01:43] In some respects. Yeah. I mean, well, and you're gonna be forced into it. Either you get forced out because you are no longer cost competitive or you have to join them, you know? And, and that provides opportunity too. I was talking to a young man earlier, he was talking about first generation, he wanted to get into the grain industry here in Saskatchewan. And and part of that for him was joining with an older farmer that had the land base that was looking to retire that. And so he became, essentially, he owns shares in the company and that's a way for him to get into that industry and, and, and consolidating not necessarily financial resources, but youth and vigor and intelligence and bringing that to the table and trading that for an opportunity and making that an opportunity. Yeah.

Guest [01:02:25] Well and something you just brought up, I think, I know that's something that people have talked to me about here is how do you plan that succession? Like how are you gonna hand this down to the next generation? And that's kind of something that a lot of people don't wanna address because if you're the one there working and you're actually doing it most of the time, you need the, the income, your, your immediate family. And then if you wanna bring in kids or bring in partners, like what, what do you do to bring those in? Can you expand? I mean those are real challenges. Are you? And if you expand at what cost, you know, or are you just gonna take less so that you can have maybe a child come back? I don't know those answers, but I think there's stuff that you really has to be looked at because as we get this generational shift, there may not be a lot of people that want to come back. It may be a simple matter of, Hey, we realize how miserable this was for a little while. We don't want part of it. Or we've seen how great it can be. We're willing to roll the dice and let's see if we can have it and make it work.

Vance Crowe [01:03:22] Yeah. And in the business community, the reality is that most businesses don't make it to the third generation. You know, there's a saying that the first generation rolls up their shirt sleeves, meaning, meaning they work their butt off to get somewhere. The second generation rolls down their shirt sleeves to become more business and more corporate. And then the third generation loses their shirt sleeves. And, and there's some truth in that. The third generations, it's very rare that a business makes it to the third generation. And you think third generation, you have a lot of advantages, particularly capital. You, you've paid down debt, you're in a position maybe where land is paid for, tractors are paid for, but you also deal with maybe a third generation that is not as emotionally invested in the operation or somebody that is not a business person. And today's ag, in today's ag economy, you need to be more of a business person than you do somebody that loves to sit in a tractor seat or, or milk a cow. The margins have gotten so small now that it's more about the person with the sharpest pencil that's able to eke out a margin than it is the guy that works 16 hours a day. Okay.

Guest [01:04:24] Now what, what generation are you?

Vance Crowe [01:04:26] I am second generation

Guest [01:04:28] And you got long sleeves.

Vance Crowe [01:04:29] I got long sleeves. I'm, I'm in Regina.

Guest [01:04:30] Point that out. Dway, Dwayne's, Dwayne's second generation. So we, we'll, we'll blame his, are you gonna blame your kids?

Vance Crowe [01:04:36] Maybe? I think so. Okay. I think so. We'll let it right on them. So, but, so let's, I got one more question for you and then we're gonna try and see if there's questions in the audience. We're gonna try and do this since this is our first podcast and your first podcast as well. We don't know how it'll go. But before we do that, I wanna ask each of you a question that is called the Peter Teel paradox. So this is a question that Peter Teel asks new people that are going, that he's, he's interviewing for a job. And the reason it's a paradox is because when I, well when I ask it, you'll see what is one thing that you believe that no one in this room will agree with you on?

Guest [01:05:13] I think we plant corn too thick. I think that there is, there's seed companies have been able to manipulate the data 'cause they're the only ones actually getting the data off of corn. Or they're the ones that fund the research. And they might be Monsanto, they might not, I don't know

Vance Crowe [01:05:30] Monsanto's gone now, oh

Guest [01:05:31] Well I guess that's not them anymore. But anyway, I think that the seed companies and everybody have basically propagated this myth that you have to plant the, a lot of corn to make yield. And I've been able to go out on my farm and figure out how to plant less with more flex and get better yields with less inputs now that is completely counter to everything that's out there in the culture. So I think that that may be one thing that I say that I believe that I think most everybody would be like, no, that's not gonna happen.

Vance Crowe [01:06:00] I believe that nobody changes their minds arguing on social media. And that's going to be to the chagrin of millions of aunts and uncles that watch Fox News and CNN and get on the old Facebook. But the more and the longer you have a dialogue on social media, the less likely somebody is to come to your side and to your belief. So then why do you spend so much time on social media? Because I don't argue. I put out my opinion and I try and do it in a humorous way and a way that is informative and then I'll walk away. Because to me, if a conversation goes more than one or two responses long, you're not going to win them over and you haven't won them over. So I just like to implant a little seed and to me it's about making a connection with somebody where they identify, this guy's a real person, this guy's genuine, this guy's authentic. And, and I'm I I have a, a lady that follows me on on Twitter from the New York Times, we don't agree ideologically, but she reaches out to me and asks my opinion on dairy trade issues and tariffs and, and we've become fairly close friends. And some of that is because of that, that ability to see and the window into my brain and her brain and being able to see, hey, this is a real person and I don't agree with everything, but I'm willing now to listen to this person and listen to their opinion. That's somewhat contrarian to my own. And and that to me is value. As soon as you, if your blood pressure's up, you're not gonna convince anybody of anything.

Guest [01:07:29] So now the fun begins 'cause we get to turn the question right back to Vance and he gets to do whatever he does.

Vance Crowe [01:07:36] Oh, I man, I I was hoping that we would just take it to the questions with the crowd, but Oh

Guest [01:07:41] No, no, you, you turn.

Vance Crowe [01:07:45] So I don't, I I wouldn't, I wouldn't try and say anything about Canadian agriculture. I've been here a few times, I don't know very much about it, but I, he hates the quota system. I I, I think that in the US that one of the biggest things that is holding back the farmers from moving forward, the conversation is that they accept too much money from the checkoffs and that that money ends up making it. So there are conversations you're not allowed to have because you're not allowed to denigrate another producer. And I I, however that works out, I understand why that goes that way. But I think that it is actually making it seem like every time you have a public forum, everybody gets along, but actually they're, they don't get along, but they've just been, they've agreed, Hey, we've all accepted this money, so we're not gonna have these conversations. And I think there's really, really important things that are not happening in, in that regard.

Guest [01:08:37] So you think it's okay to disagree?

Vance Crowe [01:08:40] Oh, a hundred percent. Like if you don't disagree, if you have nobody in your life that you disagree with, then you are the one that's frozen. You're, you're the one that does not have any ideas that are gonna change and you're not going to move. So you, in order to move your organization forward, you have to bring people that disagree. And, and the thing that you wanna do is prevent that disagreement from becoming toxic. And the way that you make conversations toxic is you tell people you're not allowed to say that. And and that's what I think has been happening for, for a long time. And I I I, I have an outsider's point of view, but I i, I ask people questions naively and they go, they all go like, oh, we're not allowed to talk, we're not allowed to talk about that. You know? So I think that's a real problem. That's why I'm married. Yeah. So are there any questions that we can take from the crowd that anybody would want to be brave enough? I think we can either run a mic out to you or we can try and repeat the question.

Guest [01:09:31] We'll just make questions up. But we'd really like, oh, we got one. For those of you, you,

Vance Crowe [01:09:38] This is Fresh Air Farmer Andrew Campbell, you can introduce yourself. You just did. I don't need to, I'm gonna answer your paradox in the way I'm gonna ask my question. I believe there's too many farm groups in Canada, and you said it before in your consolidation conversation that there are hundreds of farm groups of all kinds in Canada and some have more unique opinions than other. How do we as an industry, the majority, I believe in the industry that kind of fall along the same lines, how do we do a better job at trying to consolidate some of those opinions so that it doesn't seem like that, you know, kind of false bias in that, you know, we as consumers might believe there's really two sides to the story when really 90% believe one side and only 10 might believe the other. How do we as an industry solve that problem?

Guest [01:10:42] Very good. Well, I think that kind of what, if I'm understanding your question correctly, how do we, how do we all get along more? Actually get along. I think you've got to start with the principles behind the disagreements. A lot of times some of the very fundamental things that, that at least in a, in America the cattle industries disagree about are, are just things that are so big that it's hard to find a common ground. For example, I know that a packer concentration or even, okay, let's, in America it's, it has to do with country of origin labeling. I know that's, that's not a really cool thing to talk about when you're in another country because that affects, that affects things here. And you know, as an American producer, I see it one way, but I can also, when I'm here, I can see the side of it from Canada's perspective. And, and maybe we could join together and agree that Mexico is a problem. I don't know. I mean, they just did some agreement as they're supposed to sign it or something. But somewhere in there, you know, that major issues, that there are disagreements. The disagreements are for real. So maybe until we have those talks, like real talks between not just screaming at each other and fighting, but let's sit down and let's hash it out. And sometimes there's not a solution. So I don't know how you make people get along when fundamentally they disagree and, and each of them believes they disagree for the right reasons.

Vance Crowe [01:12:13] I, I think your question is really interesting and is a paradox because on the one hand I'd love to say, Hey, I think, you know, consolidate a few of these things. But what you end up doing when you do consolidation is everybody gives up the thing that they were most passionate about because that's what kept them apart. And so bringing them together causes some really serious issues. I I think one of the biggest challenges right now to organizations is the selection pressure that comes from social media. Because whereas it used to be, there would be a lot of people that would be curious like, oh, maybe I'll go check out that, that Farm bureau group, or maybe I'll go check out that co-op organization because I wanna make friends, I wanna meet people. Well now they're doing it on social media. So you're cutting out a big section of people and there's only a small subset of people that are still joining. And I don't think the modern ag groups or, or any groups, right, you know, you could go to Rotary and they are having the same problem trying to get new people to join. And without new people, it doesn't matter how many you bring together that you're not gonna have the new ideas.

Guest [01:13:21] I I I think a lot of strife in any industry is solved by higher prices. I mean, when things are good, people don't seem to argue near as much. I think that's a, you know, you can, you can raise a lot of issues outta the muck if now everybody makes a little bit more money. So, you know, sometimes if you, the market switches, the cycle turns, some of these problems will solve themselves. 'cause no one's going to argue near as much when everybody's happy. I mean, it's just the nature of the beast.

Vance Crowe [01:13:51] Any other questions? I have one Vance right now, the Beyond Burger is not very price competitive. At what point does that become price competitive and how long does that take for them to get that to the point where it competes with ground beef? So before I came here, I've been on this kick about learning more about synthetic meat because there was a big bunch of hype about five years ago, and then it kind of fell off. And now you're watching what was five years ago being r and d dollars. Now turn in, I I still think you're at least 10 years away from being able to do production at scale. At at least that's what it looks like to me. But I would say the bigger point is from what I've learned and what I've researched, and I've asked a bunch of people that I've met along the way, most people think that right now the texture part of that game is 15 to 20 years off. When you start talking about numbers like that, who knows, right? Who, where were we 20 years ago? I, I have no idea. But I think the more important thing will be when can they replicate the core nutritional value of, of beef or chicken or pork? And that will be the game changer that will seep into the, into the industry as opposed to crash over it like a wave.

Guest [01:15:08] But they've been making soy burgers and they've been making all this stuff. The, the alternative has already been there. All they did was they just slapped a better label and had better marketing to do it. So my opinion is, is that once this runs its course, yeah, they'll be, there might be some people who are just diehard, we want it, but I mean, coyotes don't chase cabbage.

Vance Crowe [01:15:27] Yeah, I mean I I but I think that that is, I think that's narrow minded, Jared. I I think that's, I think that the bigger thing that's going to happen is that it, it's not going to be about taste. You're right. Like the cattle, like they have evolved over the last 10,500 years with humans to, to be really, really efficient. So it's gonna take a while before they become that.

Guest [01:15:50] But, but all you want, all these people want to do is to become beef. At the end of the day. You already have beef. Why do you need to become something? Why do we need to replace it with some inferior product? I think that there's nothing wrong with standing up for what you make, what you believe. And I think it's high time that that, that our organizations got a little more aggressive with saying, yeah, we're okay with who we are. There's nothing wrong with the way we raise beef. There's nothing wrong with the way that we do what we do. And this goes into the animal activists, it goes into the fake meat. It's just simply a matter of standing up for yourself. And I feel like there's a lot of that that doesn't happen in our industry. It's like we've got, we have to, we've got a big brother that we're trying to impress, but we won't stand up to the big brother. I think that that needs to happen.

Vance Crowe [01:16:41] But ideologically you have people that are completely on the other side of you that believe that beef is what's killing the planet, right? And so you are at war with them. And how do you change that perception? You win, do you change that perception? Are you able to,

Guest [01:16:56] You win the war? I don't know. I don't know how you win the war, but I to me, you right now we're just rolling over. If an activist or some group says, this is what we, this is what we believe, and nobody's saying, well, you're wrong

Vance Crowe [01:17:10] Because

Guest [01:17:12] I believe they are.

Vance Crowe [01:17:13] Yeah, but I, so I think that there's a concept out there, and this is not my concept, it's called the intransigent minority. And this is written about by a guy named Nasem Talib, who is no fan of modern agriculture. And, but what he talks about is it really only takes 2% of the population to make a radical change in society because that 2%, all they have to do is be more willing to start fights than most people are willing to have. So one of the examples you could use is you're going to a bake sale and Lucy's mom shows up at the bake sale and throws a fit that you brought the GMO brownies and it is all your fault. And this is terrible. And she's pounding on the table and she says, this is awful. The next time you go to the grocery store, chances are, if you're just a regular person out there that doesn't have any connection with agriculture, you look at that and you say, well, if I pay a dollar 25 more, I can get the GMO version and Lucy's mom's not gonna yell at me. And so I'm gonna give in on here. And that way all the brownies end up being non GMO brownies. And I think this plays to what Jared is saying is you can't just give that ground up. You, you, yes, you do have to fight. You tell Lucy that intransigent minority becomes culture. You tell

Guest [01:18:24] Lucy's mom that she's not invited back to the next party and it solves the problem itself.

Vance Crowe [01:18:28] And I, I had a similar experience. I was talking to a guy that worked for General Mills, and at that time, Cheerios was working towards becoming non GMO and I. No, they had just gotten it done. They had just gotten it done. And so I had asked him, well, what did sales do before and after you went from genetically modified over to non GMO? And he says, he said sales were flat. And I said, well, why did you do it? And he said, because there is a small section of the population that would not buy Cheerios because they were genetically modified and there was a majority that would buy it no matter what. And so that's another example of the small group that's going out and determining what is genetically modified and what is not. And the thing that they had to change in their formula and in their recipe was they had to take about out the fortified vitamins and minerals in order for it to be non GMO. And so here you have a inferior product, but now it has the butterfly in the label because you're trying to appease that small group. All right, we have a question and now we get to see Dwayne jog as well. Woo.

Guest [01:19:40] Run Dwayne run Dway

Vance Crowe [01:19:41] Fat Kids with a mic. Thanks Dwayne. My name is Jill Morgan. I work in ag, but I live in a city. I'm curious what you would suggest then to try and if you're interested in quieting that intransigent minority, how do you motivate and empower that section of the population that is maybe not as invested in agriculture, but they are invested in eating. We all know that, but they're also not activists. So maybe it's not Lucy, but it's Karen or Megan standing in the grocery store trying to decide what they should buy and how do you motivate and, and inspire them to take action and to be a part of the conversation?

Guest [01:20:21] IIII think it starts with allowing, allowing them to be okay with the decision to eat meat and not be shamed into the idea that somehow what you are doing or you believe or you were raised to do, like a lot of people like steak, but yet then they get beat over the head with this climate bat that you're, you know, the cows are killing the world. And it's almost like nobody says it's okay to like steak. It's okay to have what, you know, you can be an adult and enjoy something and that's okay. It's okay. You don't, you don't have to, you know, like I, you see parents that'll control kids by like trying to guilt trip them or shame them into something. And that's fine. You're teaching kids, adults don't have to be taught. They should have some principles and some integrity of this is what I believe and if you happen to believe that I'm okay with eating meat, I don't think it kills the planet, then you have to be willing to stand up and say that. And I think so many people are so afraid to make someone mad because they don't wanna say something that'll maybe offend that group. Maybe you should say it not for the sake of offending the group, but for the sake of having the integrity of your own beliefs. I think that doing that is the first step.

Vance Crowe [01:21:43] So has anybody here ever picked up a bar of Dove soap while it's still in the package and looked at the ingredients in it? It, it says like petroleum and hydro, like all these things in it. And so I, I often tell people this story is that before I came to work at Monsanto, my wife and I had had it in our minds that we were so exposed to toxic chemicals from corporations that how could we possibly use Dove soap? So the answer that we came up with, because if you're not gonna use Dove, what are you gonna do? Right? What you're gonna do is you're gonna make lie soap in your own crockpot. So I'm putting on these like giant rubber gloves and mixing lie and fat because I'm thinking, look how much I'm protecting myself with my respirator on. The reason that we went to those links is because someone had given us a story about the way the world works and they were like, companies are putting chemicals in and it's poison and that's why we're all getting cancer. So that's the story that we had in our heads. Until someone comes along with a story that is more competitive than that one, then that story is the one that I will live out. So this concept that storytelling is deeply important. Storytelling is the only thing in civilization that is deeper and longer than owning dogs and and agriculture, right? It goes agriculture then further back in the past dogs and then storytelling. And that's why that storytelling is so important because unless that mom has another story about why this is good to eat meat, she's in a competition with those two beliefs.

Guest [01:23:19] And, and I'll say this to the storytelling point, I think Vance is a great point at this. Everybody loves to teach your kids how to fix fence, how to clean a stock tank, how to work cattle, how to drive a tractor. Maybe you should teach them how to grab a microphone, how to be out there. And I'm not saying like go do a speech contest. I'm talking about get on there and let your voice be heard and don't be afraid to, to say what needs to be said.

Vance Crowe [01:23:45] Yeah. And I agree with you that we need to be out there and we need to be telling our story. But that pendulum can swing too far too. If there's a 16-year-old girl in Saskatoon that wants to be vegan or vegetarian, don't go on Twitter and yell and scream at her and tell her she's an idiot, right? Because we see that too. Yeah. And, and that is not helpful. That does not further the narrative. I mean, we, we should say, hey, that's her choice. If she wants to be a vegan, so be it. And she has that belief system, so be it. But let's just continue to st tell our story on why we are sustainable, why we're healthy, and why we should be consumed. And

Guest [01:24:19] Well, you gotta be respectable. Of course. Yep. But she's also a vegan. No, I'm just kidding.

Vance Crowe [01:24:26] You don't trust her judgment. She has poor judgment. What do you think? Yeah. Any other questions? Well guys, this was our first time doing a podcast at Aggravation. I think it might be your first time listening to a podcast at Aggravation. So we were all in this together. Thank you so much for coming by and, and doing this with us. We were really grateful that you came. Thank you,

Guest [01:24:50] Thank you,

Vance Crowe [01:24:52] Thank you. Well that's gonna do it for this week's podcast. Thank you so much for sticking around to watch this podcast production with Jared McDaniel of Ag Uncensored and Dwayne Faber, who goes by D Faber 84 on Twitter. So if you miss last Friday's as the Crow Flies episode, you might not be aware that we're gonna start reading books as a, as a part of this podcast. One of the reasons is that I know that a lot of ideas come from books that we read. And last year I read David Goggins Can't Hurt Me in January. And before I was even finished reading it, I had already made the decision that I was gonna run 500 miles to make myself better, to make myself more fit, to have a goal to stretch for. And I accomplished that goal this year. And I realize I'm just gonna keep going with that goal. I'm gonna keep adding that into my life. That brick is firmly in my life along with Brazilian juujitsu, another form of exercise and something that pushes me both mentally and physically. So I've got that stone laid down, but I wanna start laying more stones down. I wanna start putting more things into my life. And I know that January 1st is a really good time to do that. So during this month of December, the book that I want to read that I think might help me think about how can I make my life better is Dante's Inferno. And in the podcast we talk a little bit more extensively about how Dante's Inferno is about the trip of a man from the outside of hell on earth and traveling all the way down into the the worst circles of hell. And as he goes through each circle, he encounters different people that are being tortured for the crimes they committed in their lives.

Vance Crowe [01:26:30] And then it turns out that he, the people that he's having tortured in these scenarios are real people in the world and he was trying to say what their sins they were committing and how they would be punished in the future. The book is trying to illustrate how to think about things that you're doing in your life that are causing terrible pain and suffering. And it's not that hell is in some far off place, but what will your life be like should you engage in these sins? And crazily enough, Joseph Ring actually has completed the book. He got the audio book, he was on a long trip back from Thanksgiving, so he decided he was gonna go all the way through it. And then the parts that he didn't quite get or he wanted to brush up on, he got home and he checked it out on YouTube to get some of the backstory. That is a fantastic way of doing this. It is not to say that everybody needs to read the book cover to cover, but you should find a way to engage with this material as deeply as you can and to try and figure out how can we all learn from the experiences that are put together in this fantastic book. So I hope that if you're at all interested, we are going to read it during the month of December and everybody that reads it will be invited and welcomed to participate in whatever we put together to figure out how to celebrate this and learn as much as we can from it. So I recommend following Joseph Ring four on Twitter. He is an interesting guy regardless, but he is way ahead of the curve on the homework and he's already brought me some insights about the book that I had not read. So check him out on Twitter and tune in on Friday for another as the crow flies.