A Donut Shop Owner on Suicidal Thoughts, Business Pivots, and Getting Through Crisis

Vance Crowe [00:00:01] As the crow flies on the Vance Crowe podcast, Jason Bachan, welcome to the podcast.

Jason Bockman [00:00:11] What's up dude?

Vance Crowe [00:00:13] You, you're running Strange Donuts amidst the Coronavirus Pandemic. You have kept your full-time workers going and man, you're running around like a crazy person. How are things out on the streets of St. Louis?

Jason Bockman [00:00:28] Good. The streets are, I mean, it's easy to get around, dude. The, it's fine. It's, it's funny man, seeing like, you know, everybody gloved up everywhere they go or masked up. It's like, it's weird to see people not, or like, not care, you know what I mean? And, but it's definitely like, there's people that, I'll say this dude, I thought for a while, right? That I kind of grew cynical. Like, I'm like, man, people just want, you know, they say that they want workers to make high wages, they want food cheap, they want now they want quick and they want it, you know, the best ingredients. And I like, kind of like grew cynical with that. But then like, I've seen like an outpouring from the community, then I'm like, man, people just, they care. And it's, it's really, I mean, been like a real benefit of this, like a kind of a silver lining where I've seen like, man, people wanna support, you know, the restaurant community.

Vance Crowe [00:01:32] I dunno. So for people that don't know, you've been on the podcast a couple of times, but for people that don't know, you run a donut shop in the St. Louis area, actually a bunch of different franchises and somehow, instead of just shutting it down like many other restaurants did, you've kept it going. What are you doing? Like what, how are you keeping this whole enterprise up and running?

Jason Bockman [00:01:54] Right. So we, we, we have an online store where you can buy merchandise and gift cards and all that. And if your listeners wanna do that, I'd appreciate it. But the, we, we switched up on the fly. The, the, I don't know, we moved pretty quick on unorthodox, right? And we stay like real lean and to where we're able to adjust pretty quick to almost anything. And the, our model is kind of built for this, you know, that you grab your stuff, you go, you don't touch anything, you point at what you want. There's like, you know, a lot of verbal interaction, but there's very little interaction with the customer. But the, a couple weeks ago when the NBA announced that they were canceling the season, I was like, oh shit. Like this is gonna have some spillover. So I got on my phone real quick, I just did like a, I was like, I posted a picture of my Venmo, right? My QR code. And then I just said like, Hey, our stores are slow and they're gonna be slow. If anybody wants to Venmo me 25 bucks, I'll bring you donuts anywhere in the St. Louis area. And in five minutes I got 71 orders.

Vance Crowe [00:03:00] Holy geez, man. Yeah, dude, that is some social capital you had built up.

Jason Bockman [00:03:04] Dude, I couldn't turn it off quick enough. And I seriously, man, I was like overwhelmed. Like everywhere I went, people were like, keep going, dude. Be safe. You know, like it was, it was awesome. And then people from, like, somebody from Japan, somebody from Canada, somebody from New Zealand like just sent money saying like, Hey dude, we love you, love what you're doing.

Vance Crowe [00:03:26] And the,

Jason Bockman [00:03:26] When I was delivering the donuts, I was telling, I would tell stories, right? I'd like, just get on Instagram live, tell stories, and I don't know. So like that went, it was like drinking from a fire hose, but we, so I was like, okay, dial it back and figure out how to do this better. And so we turned our merchandise store into a way to order donuts so you can order a dozen donuts. And then we, like, every day we add something new or something different where we're like, you know, I pull up to your house with beer and cocktails, you know what I mean? Like literally like canned cocktails and stuff from a local brewery here. And I'm like, you know, would you like to add on any of these things to your purchase? Right? So we're like s slanging booze, and there's a chip company here called Red Hot Triplets. So you can buy a case of red hot triplets. We're doing something we just, every day I try to add stuff on to like from my friends that own businesses that can't have contact or had to close. So I'm like buying stuff from them so I can sell it and still keep their name out in front of people.

Vance Crowe [00:04:28] Man, that's, it's huge. And the fact that you have had the tenacity to keep going, are you afraid at all? Like, are you wearing a mask? Are you concerned about getting Corona?

Jason Bockman [00:04:41] I, I definitely am like taking precautions, right? One of my friends who owns a brewery, they started, they stopped brewing beer and they're only making hand sanitizer now, right? So they're selling like,

Vance Crowe [00:04:55] Who's that? Give 'em a shout at,

Jason Bockman [00:04:56] It's called Four Hands, four Hands Brewery. And they're awesome people and they do so much stuff in the community. And like the first sniff of it, dude, they stopped. So they have a distillery also where they make, you know, so spirits. And they just stopped and they started making hand sanitizer. And he told me, I don't know if he wants anybody knowing this. I, I don't, I don't think you'd care, but like, he shipped like $40,000 worth of hand sanitizer, like within the first couple days. And it's awesome that like, you know, hand sanitizer sold out anyway everywhere. And so he was able to kind of fill a gap, provide a service, and keep his people working. So that was awesome. So I have like a gallon of that in my car. I use it all the time. I have poly gloves that I wear and I change constantly. I don't wear a mask. I happen to find some N95 masks, like a big sleeve of 'em in my garage. I bought, that's kind of a long story, but I bought out like a 12 stores of paint supplies. They consolidated and sold to this big company called PPG. And I bought all the inventory. And in this inventory was like a bunch of N95 masks. And I was like, man, I think I have a bunch of those. So whatever. I kept a couple for my family, I gave the rest, you know, I donated them.

Vance Crowe [00:06:12] Yeah, we had a bunch of masks. 'cause Annie is just, she's just super forward thinking. And she did like five years ago and we went downstairs and we were like, we have so many here. There's just no way that it's better for them to be down here than it is for some nurse or doctor to have 'em, because we're gonna need nurses and doctors at some point. So Right. Get these things out the door.

Jason Bockman [00:06:35] Yeah, there was like, there was like, I can't remember, there was like another, so we have some operations in Illinois also, and the governor of Illinois announced a lockdown before they did in Missouri. And when that happened I was like, oh, wow. I went next door to the grocery store and I bought food for my employees and like, you know, rices and beans and tuna and stuff to just keep at the store in case my staff needed stuff I bought. Like, but that was the first real, like, I felt a little sense of panic, you know, when I went into the grocery store I was like, you know, buy everything. And like,

Vance Crowe [00:07:17] I think we talked that day. I think we talked that night.

Jason Bockman [00:07:19] Yeah, dude. I was like, alright dude, take a breath. Like, I don't know, there's, so my wife is Venezuela, right? And I spent a lot of time in Venezuela. I went to school in China, right. So I've like, it's crazy that, at least now, and I feel like we're pretty fortunate to be where we are, right? That like, the beef might be sold out today, but there will be more beef tomorrow, you know? And I like took a breath, kind of calmed myself down, but like I've really taken a position of like, alright dude, I didn't know how many people looked towards me. You know what I mean? Like how influential I'm, which is like,

Vance Crowe [00:08:03] That's what I told you the first night. That's why we were talking the first night. I was like, man, people are gonna need somebody to step in here and, and do some shit. And like, not to push you out in front of the car, but you're definitely a leader here, man.

Jason Bockman [00:08:17] Yeah, dude, it's been like humbling. It's been flattering, but like, I don't know, man. I went like, I've been on the news all the time. We did this thing where we, you know, there's a ton of furloughed restaurant employees, you know, and we went and

Vance Crowe [00:08:32] 80,000 in St. Louis, 80,000.

Jason Bockman [00:08:36] It's crazy. We have been able to keep all of our people on all of our full-time people. And, and what we did is like, we just, we, so we were doing deliveries. We have, you know, we make a lot of donuts with a few people, you know, they're just highly skilled, highly trained. And we shrunk our hours down to where we're open seven days a week now, where we used to be six days. So we're open seven days a week now, 7:30 AM to 12:30 PM and the, it gives everybody 35 hours right? At all of our stores. We have another store called World's Fair Donuts, that's like a classic donut shop. It's been around since 1940, I think we bought that at the end of last year. And that place has kind of been decimated, you know what I mean? Like, that's around a bunch of hospitals and stuff. And usually we depend on the businesses that are there, but there's no workers at any of these

Vance Crowe [00:09:39] Businesses. Yeah. And it's a whole ambiance thing, right? It's a whole come in, get some donuts, like

Jason Bockman [00:09:44] Kick it. Yeah. Like, yeah, for sure. It's like nostalgia. The donuts are 91 cents, you know? It, it really is. Like we depend purely on volume there. And there's like for a while, man, like, yeah, it's like, it's a little factory, dude. And so I don't know, I've taken the position of like, so we help set something up. There's something called the Gateway Resilience Fund where you can apply, if anybody watches this, you can apply, you know, for a grant, if you're a furloughed employee or if you're a small business that's suffering, you can get money. And we set something up and there was a, it was just, you stay in your car, I'm at a table, you pull up if you need food, you take it, you pay what you want. Right? And two and a half hours, I couldn't tell you how many people we served. We raised $12,000.

Vance Crowe [00:10:37] Wow.

Jason Bockman [00:10:38] In two and a half hours, like with some buddies of mine, you know, there's a place called High Point Drive in and, and I don't know, there it was, it was, and people pulling up that waited in this line, you know, for like two hours, didn't even take food. Some of them, they just threw money in the bucket. And I was just like, I love my city. You know, and people from just all walks of life. And I don't know, it's been interesting. Like, so I've been like trying to put out positivity. I've been like, for the past few years I've been like kind of behind the scenes in my marketing, you know? And I don't know, I was just like, you know, I feel like I have something to offer. And so I've just been like telling stories about me and resilience and things that I've learned. And then just funny stuff too, you know, a lot of just funny, weird stories.

Vance Crowe [00:11:40] I mean, I had to, I was like, I, I've been busy these last two weeks, and I would find your thing and you'd be like, and then there was this dog and it was vicious and it was coming at me. It was a beast. And it was coming at me.

Jason Bockman [00:11:51] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:11:52] So it was you, it's great. It's entertaining. I had to like, put myself on a diet of it,

Jason Bockman [00:11:58] Dude. Like, and I, I get messages from people. This is the cool thing about it, right? I get messages from people and cards from people and emails, people dropping stuff off of the shop saying like, I can't tell you how much it means to laugh right now. Thank you. Like, they're like, man, I just got choked up. It, it was like, I didn't know how much I meant to people, you know? And it's been really cool. And, and so like, but I'm not like, so I have been like, I wake up and I try to do this thing and I started doing something new. So I usually do this thing where I, I, I wake up when my alarm first goes off, when my feet touch the floor, I go,

Vance Crowe [00:12:46] Yes. Right?

Jason Bockman [00:12:48] I, I do that and it kind of like jogs my like confidence or whatever. 'cause like I tell people this and they think that I'm lying, right? But like, I wake up usually and I'm like, you loser, you're gonna fail. You know what I mean? And I've like, I've taught myself or learned from other people, like how to combat some of that stuff, you know? And so I'm being like positive. I don't know. One of the stories that I talk about was, and I'll tell the story real quick. When I was a kid, we were poor, right? And we ate potatoes for like at least two meals a day, right? So we'd lunch, you get potato with like some butter, you know what I mean? Dinner you eat potatoes with. We like, when like, I felt like ranch came out, you know what I mean? I'm sure it was around for a while, but like, we'd eat, you get some cheese and ranch for dinner on a potato and the, and we'd probably eat chicken once a week. And then, but some one time it got real bad and we just had ramen. And my dad framed it in a way that was like, I don't know, I didn't know how pivotal it'll be in my life, but he, I, and I think about it now and I'm like in a different light, but my dad was like, Hey guys, we're gonna make a special ancient Chinese food for dinner. And it was ramen. He's like, and we're gonna tell stories in the round. And when this stuff really started kicking off, I started doing this with my son. So like, we would eat the Chinese food and my dad would say, like, one time I was walking through the forest and I saw a, and then I would say a big bear.

Jason Bockman [00:14:19] And he had blood all over him from, and then my brother would be like, eating a kid. And my kid name was, and then my dad, and it would just go on and on. And I told, and then like, after that first night, I was like, can we do Chinese night every night? You know? And my dad was like, we can, we we're probably gonna do Chinese night for a little bit, but I was so hyped on it, you know, and like, I, two things I think about now, my dad shielded me mentally from how bad things were then. Right? He framed it in a way that I looked forward to eating this 7 cent dinner, you know what I'm saying? Or whatever it was at the time. And I look forward to it. And it was fun. And I think about it now, like it taught me, I tell stories now, I'm pretty good at it. And the, I'm creative and I think that helped out. But I think about now, like how my dad must have felt, you know, like, all I can give my kids is some ramen, but I'm gonna try to give it to him in the best way I can. So, I

Vance Crowe [00:15:30] Mean, it's the best seasoning you could have given it, right? Is it, it made that that way better than anything. You could have added salt or butter or anything.

Jason Bockman [00:15:37] Literally, dude, it was, and I still, yeah, I eat ram and I think about it all the time. Whatever. But dude, so I mean, I'll talk about some, like, whatever, I don't know. You can ask me questions, but I'll tell you like, there's like a flip side to it too, where I was talking to my friend the other day, like, I've stayed positive and, but the main thing that that talk taught me is like how to stay positive for other people.

Vance Crowe [00:16:03] I mean, I've wondered this. I mean, you know, I'm in my house. I'm, I'm bunkered in here. Like my work was shut down and I have a pregnant wife, so I'm like, I can't go out and get exposed and bring it home to her. So I feel like I'm sitting at home during this like time and I'm watching you go out and do stuff. And I'm like, man, how does he just keep going? Like, this is a, it's a frightening time. He is. Got kids at home, he's got workers, he's trying to carry on his back. And I mean like, I'm glad you're doing it, but I gotta say like, I don't know how you're doing it.

Jason Bockman [00:16:38] There's like something dude in me that's kind of always been there. Like, and maybe we've talked about it before, but I'm like, you won't be me. You won't stop me. And of course I'm like, we're following everything. The CDC says, I'm not just being flippant. You know what I mean? It's not like flying in the face of like concern, you know? But like, and I told all my employees, you know what I mean, if you do not want to work right now, I get it. People are freaked out. If you want to go home, like when this ends, you're welcome back. You know, no one's gonna get fired for like, feeling unsafe. But like, I don't know, dude. I have this thing where I'm like, it's served me well. And then I think sometimes it cuts against me where, I don't know, I could be in a house that's burning down and I'm like, you know, like you at least we're not out in the cold, you know what I mean? I'm like, try to find like positive in everything, you know? And like, sometimes I don't know how I'm doing, honestly. People like, like my close friends, like, how are you doing man? And I'm like, really? I don't, I don't even know. I'm just like going like, I, I do know. And it's a reality for this business that I built and I'm like literally blood, sweat, and tears, you know what I mean? And I'm like, if we were to shut down, I don't know if we could open back up. And that's real, right? And so I'm like, I try to do everything I can, one, to serve my family first, the people that depend on me second and my community third, you know?

Jason Bockman [00:18:15] So if by being open and it's crazy, dude. Like I see it every single day now 'cause we're doing like 50, 60, 70 deliveries a day, dude. And I have like people that are outta work right now working for me, doing deliveries, you know, that have kids that they need to support and real bills and, but like, people from out of town will buy donuts and send people to send donuts to people that I assume probably don't have the expendable money right now to be buying our donuts. And when I show up at their house and I have a dozen donuts and a bag of coffee, like I've gotten messages like, Hey man, I can't tell you what that little break meant, you know, that was everything and thank you. And I see it and I know what that's like. So I think that one, it's almost been like a community service. And I don't wanna say like, oh, strange donuts is just like more than we are. You know what I mean? But I think that, and I think people have told me like, can't tell you what it means that I wake up and I see the ear open because there's a lot of places that aren't it. And I don't know, it's like a little sense of normalcy that you can grab some donuts. And so,

Vance Crowe [00:19:40] Yeah, I mean, like, I think every, every person that is going out there and adding something into the economy is making themselves essential. I I had like a fantastic conversation with a buddy of mine this, this afternoon because I was a little bit like, man, I really don't like state lockdowns. I, I like, I feel like you're saying, I don't know, it's, it's, i, it it feels like an intrusion of government in with me. And, and this guy said, wait a second, look at it this way. The government just said, only essential people be out there. And you get to choose if you're essential right now, you get to choose, do I have a skill that can fix problems that people have? And like I, I talked with an HVAC guy LA yesterday, man, I, I, I wanted to like reach out and give him a hug. 'cause he was like, you know what? We're not worried. We're still going out there. We're doing these things, we're getting stuff done. And no matter what happens at the end of today and, and next week and next month, you gotta have people that are willing to go out there, face some risk and get things done. And man, that's, it's huge. Whether you're delivering donuts or putting fiber optic cable in the ground or running cattle, it doesn't matter. Just make yourself essential. That's, that's badass.

Jason Bockman [00:20:56] It's, well, I think that there's some things that I see and I don't know, man, maybe this is an unpopular opinion I would prefer, and I think that it might be easier for some people. Like I got a, a lot of the messaging is, is not very clear, right? They're like, we're gonna have a complete shutdown now there's a lot of like, you know, misunderstanding about what a shutdown means. And I'm like, you can still, I, I was like, man, I'm like, just lock everything down, dude. You know, I, I'd feel like it would be easier, like keep the hospitals open and hey, you gotta stay at home. But like, I don't, if, if there's, it's easy for me sometimes to feel like, you know, my industry is a fact or, but it's not, it's not Jason. It's not strange donuts. It's not the restaurant industry. It's not St. Louis, it's not the United States. It's a comp. It's the whole world, dude. And so I'm like, I, I feel like people are looking for leadership, you know, whether that's from a community leader or a government official, you know, I think that, I don't know, it's crazy right now. But I'll tell you dude, like in knowing like not how I'm doing, like I was thinking about something, there's, I don't know, I have people that work for me, dude, and more like myself, you know, I'm like, I feel like there could be more deaths from suicide and alcoholism and drugs, you know, than, than the virus itself.

Jason Bockman [00:22:28] Like, people losing their stuff, you know? And not feeling like there's a way out. And dude, I gotta be out. Like, I was like power washing my deck. I've definitely had more time. 'cause we're only open five hours a day. I'm running like crazy. You know what I mean? We're, I'm working probably 10 times as hard as I have been to make, you know, less money. And, and I'm okay with that. You know, there's a part of me that knows like, we're gonna come out of this and I'm gonna choose to come out of this stronger. There's a story about Coca-Cola, you know, in the war when they were rationing sugar. And like, it's an awesome story, but Coca-Cola, you know, became dominant because of this, right? And like, being scrappy in hard times. And some, you guys can google him that stuff, but like, dude, I was power washing my deck the other day and I'll have like, thoughts of suicide sometimes, right? Like just in my normal, everyday walking around life, you know? And I don't know if that's like specific to me, dude.

Vance Crowe [00:23:26] No, I mean, I, I I have it if things are, even when things are good, you know, you like, and then you like see something that might go wrong and you're like, I don't know, maybe I just kill myself. And then you're like, no, wait a second. No, I wouldn't. Like I'm not, no, I'm wait. But like, if I'm being totally honest, a hundred percent you, I've had those, those those like inclinations

Jason Bockman [00:23:46] Fleeting thought or Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:23:48] Right.

Jason Bockman [00:23:48] Usually dude. And so like, I was, they're usually fleeting thoughts for me, usually like a negative way of thinking is like kind of my baseline, you know? And I fight against that. And then when I'm like depressed, I do a few things, right? I talk to myself, I talk to like that like depression voice, almost. Like it's another person. I'm like, you know what, bring it. You can't stop me when it gets, and I talk to it and I'm like, Hey, thanks for sharing, dude. You know, but we're gonna keep on moving when it gets real bad. And it like consumes me. I say to myself like, you've been here before, it's been worse than this and you're standing here, you can do it. Keep going. And I try to like, if I can't shake it, I pour myself into service, you know, like, Hey, how can I go help someone else right now? Or I call people that I know have been having a hard time and I check in on them and it like gives me like a little bit of a break where I'm not thinking about myself and like spinning. But the other day, dude, like I couldn't shake it and it was like, it felt like it was kind of out of nowhere. Like I have a, a nice house before all this happened. We were gonna sell the house and like buy a smaller place. My extended family's not living here anymore. They're in Spain and they're in Miami. And so this just my wife and kids here, so we don't need all the space that we have. So I was, by getting ready to sell my house, just doing stuff around the house, I was power washing the deck.

Jason Bockman [00:25:25] And dude, like, I couldn't for probably two solid hours while I was like power washing the deck, I was, it was like, I couldn't shake thinking about killing myself. And the first thought is like, you know, don't tell anybody, you know, or you're fucking,

Vance Crowe [00:25:44] Yeah, that voice wants you alone. It doesn't want you to talk to anybody else. Dude. Keep you away from all those, all those people that might try and talk you out of the thing,

Jason Bockman [00:25:52] Dude. Or like, like people will think you're weak, which is fucking stupid. People think you're weak. If you say you're scared, you know, people will abandon you. This is just how I think, you know, or like, they'll think something's wrong with you or your business and they won't come. And so it, like, it totally like, is like, tries to isolate me. And so I was just like, alright, Mia, finish up. And I felt like I had a panic attack a couple days before that. Just kind of like, when I was really trying to figure out like, where do we cut hours? You know, can we keep everybody on? How do we change our business model? And it got real overwhelming. Like I couldn't almost even see straight. And I, I went for a walk, I wrestled with my kids and it snapped me out of it, but the other day I couldn't shake it. And I don't know, I called one of my friends and I was just like, I forced myself to like get the first opportunity to say like, I just told 'em, I'm like, Hey man, I'm thinking I had thought of killing myself and I couldn't shake it. It's, and I, I can't get it on my head. And I don't know, I thought about like, because I had a brother who kill himself. I dunno if you knew that or not.

Vance Crowe [00:27:06] No, I didn't know that. Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:27:07] I had a brother who kill himself nine years ago and it wrecked me. Dude, I st I still miss him. My name's Jason. His name was Mason, right? And like, awesome kid. And I know, like, I'm not in his head, you know, but I've, I've been on that like precipice, right? Where like when you feel backed in a corner or you feel down and I, and you, when you feel bad, it feels like you always felt bad. You know, when you feel depressed it feels like you'll always feel depressed. And

Vance Crowe [00:27:45] When you're lonely, you think you're never gonna see somebody again. Nobody will ever, you know, be able to make a connection with you again. No will ever love you. And it's the fear of it going on forever. That's what I've always thought. It's, it's not the moment. It's the fear that that moment will last forever.

Jason Bockman [00:28:00] Boom. And people, and I've, I've said this out loud, like, people want to kill the moment. You know? They don't want to kill themselves. They want to kill that moment that they feel like will never end. And so like, man, I like, but it, I don't know, the other day it was like, it felt like a foregone conclusion. You know? Like, man, I worked so hard for all this stuff and it could leave and if it leaves, I'm a failure. You know? And so I'm not a person that's like afraid of success. I'm afraid of failing at a more public level, you know? And I feel like, man, all these people depend on me and all these people think I'm this cool, funny guy and all these people think I'm happy go lucky and if I can't be, you should just end it, dude. And I called a friend, talk to him for a while. Somebody else happened to call and check in on me. This business owner who like, I'm not gonna say who he is 'cause he could share it, but like pretty high profile dude does a bunch of stuff in St. Louis in a different industry. And he was like, man, I'm so glad you said that dude. 'cause I've been thinking the same thing. And I know that it's like completely illogical, but you know, some of that stuff feels like a foregone conclusion. And it was almost like I was strong then. You know, like, oh, I'm strong for talking about this. I'm strong for being willing to talk about the way I feel and think.

Vance Crowe [00:29:33] It's pulling yourself away from that voice, right? That voice that wants to be like, no, no, I, you and me. We know each other and we don't need anybody else.

Jason Bockman [00:29:40] It's good. Yeah, I do, I read this thing every day. It's, it's, it's on Hazelton, like the Betty Ford Clinic, right? They have all these readings every day and there's this stuff that's like a daily reading for men. And I read that every day. So I try to wake up and put some positivity in my head and if like, throughout the day that I'll go back and read that stuff. But then, like, usually, I don't know if people realize this dude, like I, I tweeted some stuff the other day, like, you know, you're not alone. You're loved and cared for. I can't remember what else it said, but I was like, keep going. And most of the time those things get really good responses, you know what I mean? But I'm not writing that really for anybody else. I'm writing it for me. You know, like I'm putting it out there like, I need this right now. It's like affirmation for me. Like, 'cause sometimes, I don't know, I do something in business right now and I've done it for a while where I'm like, okay, what would CEO Jason say? So I like ask CEO Jason in my head like, what do you think we should do? You know? And CEO Jason will say like, I think we should hammer delivery. I think that, you know, you should establish, you know, like some funny content so that people can have a little bit of relief and if it completely shuts down, you know, maybe you could make people laugh for money, you know, and feed your family.

Jason Bockman [00:31:25] And so that's what I do when I'm like really caught up. But like, I do the same, like sometimes I have to think like, okay, dude, what would you say? What would you say to other people? You know, if somebody screwed something up right now, like, would you tell 'em to kill themselves? Like no, you'd probably tell 'em you love 'em, dude. You'd probably hug 'em. You'd probably see like all the beautiful things in their life, you know? But sometimes we just can't do that for ourselves. And it's crazy to me dude sometimes that like a stranger, a complete stranger can love me more than I can love myself, you know? So it's, I mean, I know right now, dude, if I called you in the middle of the night, right? And we're friends, right? Yeah. Like, I love you a lot. I look up to you a lot. I, I think that like, you know, there's a lot of stuff in your life that I try to emulate, dude. Like, you would never tell me to hurt myself, you know? No, no man, you would, you would like lift me up. But for some reason, dude, sometimes I'm like, you gotta go with this alone when it is fucking insane, dude. When everyone in the world right now is going through this That's right. To, to think that I would be the only one that thinks and feels this way. Right? It's irrational times, right? So like, why do I chastise myself for thinking and feeling and maybe even acting irrationally, you know?

Jason Bockman [00:33:02] So I don't know. That's what I try to do is like, I went to the grocery store the other day, dude. And there was only three packages of beef left. And I was like, I should grab all three packages of beef. And then like, there's a dude standing behind me waiting to see if there was gonna be beef left after I moved. So I grabbed two packages of beef, I left one for the sky. And then this girl was like, Hey, where did you find that beef? And I was like, right over there, like, get outta here, right? And then I was like, come on dude. I was like, would you like one of my packages of beef? My initial reaction is usually like fueled by fear, you know? And

Vance Crowe [00:33:45] I've been run by fear in a way that I have never been before. And it's because I'm gonna be a dad. And in the past, I mean, I wasn't reckless, but I lived right there on the edge on a lot of stuff and, and went on a lot of adventures and went to places I probably shouldn't have been. I was all over in Africa and Latin America. Like, but now it's a whole different thing. And, and I feel the sense of selfishness come out and I don't know what's good, selfishness, the thing that keeps the tribe alive and what's the bad stuff. But I can tell you that like, you know, I, I sit here and think I, I know several times throughout this whole thing I've had to be like, no, you should go tell people what you think is actually going on so that that way they can respond and react and, and they may think you're goofy. They may think you're like hyperbolic, but if you don't tell them and you're right, then what did you just do? Like,

Jason Bockman [00:34:45] Come

Vance Crowe [00:34:46] On. Yeah. Get your head out. That's what I mean. My wife and I, when we figured out about the masks, we were like the, you know, if, if everything goes wrong and we need these masks, we need all 80 of these, then I don't want to have lived in a world where we kept them all to ourselves. Like that's,

Jason Bockman [00:35:03] It's

Vance Crowe [00:35:04] Like the, anyway, I don't even know where I'm going other than to say we are living in these times where you have, you're confronted with these questions and you're like, Hey, I, I need to think about this in a different way. 'cause we're playing in a different game than we were before.

Jason Bockman [00:35:20] Yeah. You're gonna be the best dad, dude.

Vance Crowe [00:35:23] I don't know. I, I mean the, the concern I I, and I think that this goes along with what you were saying about all these people that are running businesses that are thinking, I built all this and it could all be taken away and could I ever do it again? And in the back of your mind, you have to be wondering, did I get here last time? 'cause I was lucky. Mm. But you're not. Right? Right. Nobody gets somewhere and stays there. 'cause they were lucky. They've, they worked, they got things done. And that is whatever the new world is. And there will be a new world after this coronavirus. It will be who can go solve problems that other people have. That's, that's what matters. And if you could do it before in old world, you can do it in the new world. And even if you couldn't do it in the old world, you may be able to do it in the new world.

Jason Bockman [00:36:08] Yeah, no, it takes all types, dude. And I thought like that's the, that's the thing. It's like, you know what's crazy, dude, it was a choice before this to be a positive or negative person to divide yourself. You know, because your race or political affiliation or, you know what I mean? You could, that shit was around before Corona, dude. You know what I mean? So I was like, I'm like, okay, so there's this now so I can still make a choice, you know what I mean? To be like positive and serving and whatever. But like the crazy thing is the stuff that you said, you know, coming out of your, you said coming out of this, you know, it's gonna be who, who, people who can solve problems, who are gonna like win. But I'm paraphrasing what you just said, but man, that's been how it is for thousands of years, right?

Vance Crowe [00:37:02] All of humanity, right?

Jason Bockman [00:37:04] Forever, dude. So I think, like I'm looking back, I, I was talking to a doctor who is across the street from me, and he was talking about, and he was like this real stoic man, right? And he was like, in times like this, I go back and I look at a hundred, 200, a thousand years ago, what people did in times of crisis and how they handled it. 'cause the blueprint hasn't changed. You know, I'm trying to do what Coca-Cola did, you know what I mean? A hundred years ago where they like served this is what they, you know, so they had sugar and metal rationed and they converted all of their manufacturing to make sure they could send Coke to, to soldiers.

Vance Crowe [00:37:50] Soldiers, yeah, that's right.

Jason Bockman [00:37:52] And so the, and they had made this campaign called A Taste of Home, right? And I think it was Eisenhower, I can't remember who the president was, dude, but he said he liked it so much. He said, you know what, dude, not only are you gonna make coke for the soldiers who need it, you're gonna make coke for all of the Americans that need it. And so we're gonna make sure that you have all the sugar you need, all the metal you need. And out of that, like the soda machine was made, you know what I mean? And it catapulted Coca-Cola, who was this scrappy company at the time, who had a leader that was willing to think on the box. You know what I mean? Because like, this is what I think too. This is what I really get afraid, dude. Like there were soda companies at that time that clammed up, you know, that like out of fear froze and fear either motivates you or makes you freeze. You know? And I think that when you, if I freeze, forget about it, dude. So I just try to, every day I'm like, okay, what can I do today to provide for the people who depend on me? I close my eyes because I'm like, I, I literally, I like do this, you know? I'm like, it's like a meditation, you know, what can I do today to keep it moving basically? And I do those things and I'm trying to figure out a way right now to give donuts away for free to people who don't, who can't afford 'em right now.

Jason Bockman [00:39:30] And I think that like, you know, as much as I can afford to do it, I'm gonna do it. And we have a plan for it. But like, I don't know, there's a guy who's worked at World's Fair Donuts for a long time named Roger. I should, I'm not gonna talk about that. It's pretty personal. But I'm doing everything I can to make sure the people that depend on me are provided for. I'll

Vance Crowe [00:39:52] Say that. I mean, and, and, and when all this gets done, I mean, even after it's done, even before it's done, the weight that you can pick up and carry is exactly how strong you are, right? And that there's not you, you're a big power lifter, right? Like there's nothing feels better. It's hard in the moment, but nothing feels better than having lifted a heavy weight. And that's what all of this is, right? And if you can pick that up and carry like, Hey, I'm gonna keep my employees going, I'm gonna lead and, and allow them to figure out ways to contribute and, and, and encourage them. Like, then you just picked up a huge weight and you get to let it drop and hit the ground and go rah. You know?

Jason Bockman [00:40:31] Yeah, dude. And the capacity starts to feel normal, right?

Vance Crowe [00:40:35] That's right. You do that again tomorrow. No problem. Then you stack more on

Jason Bockman [00:40:39] Period, and that's it. So imagine like, if I'm doing everything, this is what I tell myself, dude, and this is a little bit of encouragement. If I can do all this right now, what can you do in peace time? You know, like when this is over or different or new, whatever, like no excuses, dude, you know? And so, well,

Vance Crowe [00:41:00] And, and like, the thing that kicked me into doing this podcast, my, my buddy Lyle Benjamin sent me a text after we were kind of going back and forth, I'm sure I was kind of complaining about something and he just wrote Memento Maury, like, remember, you will die. And that's true, you will die, but it doesn't have to be today. And you can decide like, what am I gonna do to maximize just, just to go do something to make something better. That's, and then I was like, well, I have all these questions about the coronavirus. My favorite thing in the world to do is to ask people questions. I'll go do that. That's what I can do. You're figuring out how to deliver donuts, and if donuts gets blown up, you'll, you'll do something else, man.

Jason Bockman [00:41:42] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:41:43] And it'll be a hell of a story too. Like we all, all of us have, certainly you've looked at World War I and been like, I don't really wanna be in World War ii, but it'd been nice to be the greatest generation. Now we get that chance, right? In this chaos. There's a, there's opportunity.

Jason Bockman [00:42:00] I th dude, I've been, I was, when people start complaining to me, I'm like, there's opportunity everywhere, dude. You know? I'm like, man, there's, I try to, and I, I'm not saying it the bullshit or rub it in their face, I'm like, really? Like, dude, there is so much opportunity right now to serve, you know, and like you said, to solve people's problems or to bring people hope or happiness. Like man, it is everywhere and people are starving for it. You know? People are starving for comfort and services right now

Vance Crowe [00:42:34] And things are only gonna get harder. Like, I, I want to be real honest about that because I don't think people are fully prepared for what's coming, but you're not in a better position by not thinking about it because I, I don't know. Like I, did you see what went on? What's going on in Ecuador right now? Man, it's bad. It's bad. Their government didn't step in in time and they are body bags that are just stacked up outside the hospital because they can't, they can't get rid of 'em. Like the, the, they're everywhere. It's, it is bad. And you see that where it's going on in a place like Ecuador could go on in Peru and Brazil, it could go on in Central America. In any case, we also have that potential here, or we have the potential for all sorts of other things. We could have unrest because people are hungry and we don't have systems set up for them. You could have, you could have all kinds of things. So it's good for us to not say like, oh, la la la things are getting better. It's, you know, but it's good to say, look at what's coming and figure out what people need and solve that problem. And now you are an essential worker and you may be an essential worker while watching your kids at home sheltering in place. It's not to say you gotta be out digging trenches,

Jason Bockman [00:43:49] Right?

Vance Crowe [00:43:49] But for real shit is going to hit the fan. There's no way around it now. Like, it may not hit that fast, but it's going to, so being ready to figure out how am I gonna solve a problem? How am I gonna keep my eyes open to be looking for a problem that, that other people have that I can solve?

Jason Bockman [00:44:08] Yeah. I don't know. Maybe I'm like, you know, I say that, I'm like, I, I, I like train myself to find the positive and stuff. And I'm like, I think that we will, maybe it's not gonna be tomorrow. You know what I mean? But the cure a vaccine treatments, and I, I, I just, I don't know, maybe I got my head in the sand, right? But like,

Vance Crowe [00:44:35] I think about this, man, what if we all have to get, what if it is a baptism and we all have to go through, a hundred percent of us have to go through and get it. What if that's the case? I'm not saying I'm not advocating for it. I'm not saying people should go to coronavirus parties. I'm just saying what if that's the end of it? The, the, the, the path, the only way through is, is the only way around this problem is through. And if that's the case, then we will all come out on the other side. Not all of us, but whoever makes it through then went through this metanoia experience and changed as a result of it. You can't tell if you went through Coronavirus right now on any level, a small cold to being on a ventilator, you're gonna remember this for the rest of your life. It's gonna change something about you.

Jason Bockman [00:45:19] No, for sure. I, there's like, there's events where it's, there's before this and after this, you know, and this is definitely one of those things, dude is there was before this and after this. So who knows what it looks like, dude. But I think, you know, what's crazy is like what this does to kids, you know what I mean? Psyche and stuff. I've been paying real close attention to like,

Vance Crowe [00:45:46] Dude, you gotta cough, man.

Jason Bockman [00:45:49] No, I have allergies real bad. Okay. Yeah. I knew I've been trying to not cough, dude, but I smoke a cigar. I've been doing that too. You, you should

Vance Crowe [00:46:00] Knock that shit off. They say that smoking makes coronavirus like way, way higher potential.

Jason Bockman [00:46:06] I know, dude. I'm not inhaling. I'm smoking a cigar

Vance Crowe [00:46:09] Plus 5% comorbidity. Whenever I see somebody doing something dumb, I just, you know, plus five right there.

Jason Bockman [00:46:15] I know, dude. But I'm telling you, it's, I feel like, you know, having a cigar at night is, is better. You know, I'm like, you should, I got alcohol problem, you know what I mean? Better in drinking, better in doing drugs, dude. I'll take the cigar and I'll take the Oreos, dude.

Vance Crowe [00:46:32] All right, I'll leave you alone. Yeah, you do what you need to do. Keep your ass in the game. That's all I'm saying. Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:46:40] But dude, the, I don't know man. I think that, I pray for people, I pray for our country. I pray for the world, dude. And the, I don't know. So there's a part of this dude that's like, you know, it's like, it's cool how much, how many lines this knocks down, you know? Where when, when you don't have something to worry about, it's, it's us and them, us versus them, you know what I mean? Whoever your us versus them is. But it's like, right. You know, I mean, you remember dude the couple days after nine 11 dude, where it was like, we are, we are us. You know what I mean? There was, yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:47:20] There was an us and there was a them and, and we were gonna make sure that they heard us. That's right. And here we don't really have that. It's us versus the virus and the US is way bigger. It's humanity.

Jason Bockman [00:47:31] Yeah. And I've seen like way less stuff online that's like this drawing lines, you know, between people. And I think that, that, I don't know. I choose to look at that, you know, I choose to look at like, the positivity of it and communities coming together to help each other. So I'm not a doctor. I make donuts, you know what I mean? I'm, I'm not an epidemiologist, I'm a furniture salesman, you know what I mean? I'm like, I'm, I'm just some dude. So my opinion doesn't mean anything, dude. But I think that, I don't know, I choose to stay positive and when I can't be positive, I choose to share it. So

Vance Crowe [00:48:17] I really appreciate it, man. I, we were talking on the phone and you were telling me this and saying, Hey, I want to tell people about this because I can't be the only one. I was like, well, hey man, let's do a podcast. And I, I figured you'd tell me to f off like you didn't wanna talk about it on the podcast, but you said yes. So I, I really appreciate it. I know, I know you're running long days and you're getting a lot done and you're taking care of your family. So if people wanted to order Strange Donuts or or watch you on your Instagram, how can they do that man? Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:48:45] It's strange donuts.com shop, and there's all these options. We ask that you live within 15 miles of any of our stores and we'll bring you whatever we have available, right?

Vance Crowe [00:48:56] And if somebody wanted to help you get donuts out to people that can't afford 'em,

Jason Bockman [00:49:01] I'm working on that right now. It'll be the same option. So like one of my friends, he owns this restaurant called Grace Meat three, and there's a bunch of people, and it's some of the best food if you live within an hour.

Vance Crowe [00:49:11] Oh yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:49:11] Drive to Grace Meat three. My, one of my, my best friend Rick Lewis owns this place and him and his wife Alyssa. And it's an awesome story about what they did too. You know, they were about to close and like lay off a bunch of people and they were like, screw that, we're gonna figure it out. And they did. And, but people are ordering meals ahead of time and then they're ordering another meal saying, give this to somebody who needs it. And my friend Rick has all these free meals and his big problem is how do I, you know, there's all these people who are too proud to say, I need some food. You know? So what I think that I'm gonna do is I'm gonna say, I'm just gonna make a video and say, Hey, if you can afford to support us, please continue to, it's keeping my, my, our staff going if you can't. And I think that the number that I can handle personally, 'cause I don't want anybody else to see these people, I don't want anybody else to feel like they're on display or it's a charity thing, you know what I mean? I wanna pull up and I want to give these people stuff, and I'm gonna give them meals, and I'm gonna give them food and coffee and donut. I'm gonna give 'em meals, coffee and donuts. And I have like a coloring book that I put together that I did some illustrations for to give their some stuff for their kids. And I think that I can handle 30 a day right now, and I'll deliver that personally because like, I don't know if it's the people that can't afford to buy my product, I was, I was them.

Jason Bockman [00:50:51] You know what I'm saying?

Vance Crowe [00:50:52] Yeah. Before your hotdog stand, man,

Jason Bockman [00:50:55] I was a little dirt head kid that, you know, whatever. So

Vance Crowe [00:51:00] I'm gonna finish with one last question. And this is the question I try and ask everybody, what does the world look like in two weeks? Today is April 3rd, 2020. It's Friday night. What, what does the world look like in two weeks?

Jason Bockman [00:51:14] Man, I, you know what's crazy, dude, is it's like, I would've not told you, I would've been like a couple weeks ago, I wasn't taking as maybe a month ago. I was, there's, there's a Cardinals Cubs game in London, right? There's a Cardinals Cubs game in London. I plan to go to, and my wife said, this is like the end of December, beginning of January. She's like, I don't think we should go to that because of Corona. I was like, whatever, dude. This is Car Cubs in London, you know, I was born in England and the, I stopped dual citizenship. I'm like, we are going to the motherland to watch God's baseball team destroy the Cubs, right? And the, but then I was like talking to my friend who I was gonna go with, and I was like, but maybe, you know, I was like, this sounds stupid, but maybe she's not so crazy. But there was still a flicker of doubt in my head that this is like a fluke, right? I think two weeks from now, anybody that had any doubts is probably gonna say like, I was wrong. You know, I, but it's changing so fast. You know, like the, the doctor across the street from me said that they, they've tested 4,300 people, they have a thousand cases. He works at BJC. And, and he was like, he said, I feel that I have a little bit of a understanding to what the villagers felt when Genus Kahan was approaching.

Jason Bockman [00:53:00] Holy

Vance Crowe [00:53:01] God

Jason Bockman [00:53:02] Is what he said. And he's a smart, this is the stoic guy that I was talking about. And I was like, so right now you have tons of capacity and you're just bracing. And he is like, yeah, I was up late last night. We changed over all of our underutilized spaces into ICUs, right? So there's a part of me that still thinks, you know what I mean? And this is maybe like my positivity, like that capacity will won't be met, right? And like, you'll have planned well for it, and we've shielded ourselves. Who knows? Dude, I hope that's the case. And I do feel like I, I don't know, that's what I think, but I'm just a donut maker, you know?

Vance Crowe [00:53:56] Hey, I mean, that's as good a good of a guess as anybody's. I mean, I've, I've heard it all over the, all over the board. So it's interesting to see what people will think. And we will, we'll revisit it someday. And this will be going to a time capsule. So man, hey, thank you so much for sitting down and doing this, and yeah, man, I, I, I love watching what you're doing. Just keep going, man. Just keep, just keep going, dude.

Jason Bockman [00:54:18] At Strange Donuts on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. I didn't answer that question

Vance Crowe [00:54:21] Before. There you go. All right, man. We'll talk later. Bye.