Pakistan's Inflation Crisis: How US Dollar Printing Devastates Developing Countries

Sharoz Khalid [00:00:00] It only obey the rules and regulation that America will give us. David America will give us, this is it. You can follow this. Okay, Kala, my name is Roha, an electrical engineer living in Pakistan, and you are listening to the Vance Crowe

Vance Crowe [00:00:16] Podcast. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Today. We're going up the graph and sometimes in these kinds of interviews it requires a little bit of effort on your part. We're gonna interview a man named Shiraz, Khalid Shiraz lives in Pakistan and actually has done some work for Ben and I here with Articulate Ventures, the company that owns the Vance Crow podcast. And during the interview, you'll hear this thick accent of a man living far away with a rough internet connection. But what you will get from enduring some of the noisier parts of this interview is an experience of what it is like to live in a country that is going through inflation right now. Khalid, when we start the podcast, it goes straight into how mobs have been forming, how the political system is gearing up to have people be outraged and angry over the fact that their inflation has gone so high that people at the bottom are no longer able to feed their families. He talks about how decisions made in the United States are impacting people living in his own country. And you see the stark nature of what happens when the value of money decreases quickly, that you're going to get access to a person living around the world experiencing something totally different than what you are. And this is the value of the internet. The promise that we had was that when world events happened, we'd be able to pick up the phone or get on the internet and connect with people far away. And that is exactly what you're doing by listening to this podcast.

Vance Crowe [00:01:50] The way we support this podcast is the Legacy Interviews, and we are now in our studio. We are excited to be capturing the family histories that people have put together their stories, what they find important, the values that they wanna pass down. And if you are interested, then go to Legacy Interviews dot com and sign up for an interview. We are booking out the month of August now, so if you're interested, hop on and sign up at Legacy Interviews dot com. Now, without further ado, let's head to Pakistan. Shiraz Khali, welcome to the podcast. Welcome,

Sharoz Khalid [00:02:24] Welcome, Evans. How are you?

Vance Crowe [00:02:26] I'm doing really well. So you work with my business partner Ben Anderson, and you guys were figuring out the price of things and you, he said that you guys are facing such serious inflation that the prices are changing very quickly in Pakistan. And since we are just beginning to feel that in the United States, I thought I would have you on to talk about what's going on in your country, what is it like to see inflation rise? And just kind of get an update on, on where you're at.

Sharoz Khalid [00:02:54] Ben, thank Venus. Thank you so much for inviting me. And first of all, recently I have watched your video around related to inflation cause moves and you know, actually it's happened in Pakistan, actually, moves are happening like two, two days ago. There, there will be Iran Kan, there is a biggest party in Pakistan named PTI Pakistan Ika in south they call, they, they call for protest all across the Pakistan for inflation because you know that recently the fuel prices, education prices and all over the commodities there are gone rises. We the politician like they are doing to in decrease the like commodities prices but unable to do recent six to seven month ago. And this the, during this current currently period, I think that this USA print more than 40% up the dollar that the total, you know, in all over the world. So it's mean that USA down these like developing country to 40% like to down to the poverty. So I think that, that this is the main cause of inflation. They are in Pakistan, but if you are talking about inflation, inflation may be not subjected to rise in the prices. Inflation is also subjected to the decla declaration of unemployment and the declaration of education.

Sharoz Khalid [00:04:29] And moreover, these, moreover the inflation may directly affect to the daily wage person. You know, it is very serious issue in Pakistan that the every daily wage person only earn less than $5 a day. You can imagine only $5 a day. No. How they can survive. This is the main issue that we are focusing that people are Pakistan are worried that how we can survive less than $5 in a day.

Vance Crowe [00:05:02] It's interesting because the United States, it's hard to imagine that the printing of money for the US results in impacting Pakistani prices of food and how much fuel is going on. But when you're saying, hey, when you guys printed 40% of all of the dollars you have in circulation, just in the last, you know, two years, this has really impacted us. My general impression of Pakistan is that you have a vast majority of people that are in poverty and that their ability to feed themselves even during good times is rough. You have a very high city populations with lots of poor people. But how, what is different about what's going on right now than what maybe has gone on in the past?

Sharoz Khalid [00:05:51] Like if we are seeing the past, before the Zari came, Zari, the politician asked if Ari from people's party before the the came, he came, the situation was very good. And the per the inflation rate, it is very less like I think two to 3%. But now if we compare now the inflation rate is more than 30%. So what, what are the reason, the reason is the only stability in Pakistan, you know, when the per muha of the Journal of Pakistan army, they left. So they are like shuffling, like they are shuffling. Like first you will rule. Then after that we will do, and the main main the problem of Pakistan is corruption. So I need to put an example here that how they can describe Pakistanis and I need to put now one difference between like ordinary thi and a political thi like ordinary thief. You know, he's still like a, a similar thing like a wash cloth bag, like a minor thing, a commodity things. But if political things, political thief, he thief your education, your career, your happiness, your joy. And you know the common, there's a common ordinary thief. He, you know, he he locate any place where they can rob, but the political thief, they, they are chosen by us. You know, we word them, we word them, and we are choosing a thief to rob us.

Sharoz Khalid [00:07:28] This is, you know, alarming situation in Pakistan. And we can't understand our, our youth is not understanding like why, why we cannot raise our wives to upper level that we must get rid of it.

Vance Crowe [00:07:41] Yeah, when you describe them as thieves, I mean that's exactly right. Right. Inflation is one of those things that happens because a politician can, can put give, start printing more money and it, at first it doesn't feel like they're stealing from you. Sorry

Sharoz Khalid [00:07:56] To disturb you. I'm not considered that the politician are the main responsibility of inflation. The we are, we are also responsible. Why, why we cannot start our own business. Why we cannot like, make small industries to help the government. Why we cannot improve our, you know, exports. We always imp import things. That's why, that's why in our, you know, the asset are decreasing. That's why we, we are totally responsible. We are not blaming that politicians are totally responsible. We are responsible also. But you know, the main, you know, upper upper faculty that, that are, you know, that make the rules, that make the way how we can do export, you know, they, they implemented so much text on like, like it export, like we are doing it like, you know, with a band and you know, there is so much text there. So if we earn a hundred dollar you, we can, we can get like $60 to $50. There are so much tax cutting there. So if we, if the government imply implement so much tax on the its export, then you know, then this is not a solution to get out of these activities like inflation and poverty and unemployment like these activities.

Vance Crowe [00:09:18] An interesting thing about the Pakistani government as far as I understand is that much of it is drawn, the, the power of the politicians is often with the military because if you're a military leader in Pakistan, you are somewhat a political leader. And then you also have a very large judiciary. And that kind of stems from just culturally there are a lot of judges, there's a lot of courts. It seems like more when you look at the, the ability to influence judges and people running the military. How can you as a population do that? You say there's people trying to create strikes or, or protests. Is that what's going on now?

Sharoz Khalid [00:10:00] Currently they are, but okay, so you know, a narrative built in past like two to three month ago that there is a conspiracy by the American that they, they changed the regime of Pakistan government. You are familiar with this?

Vance Crowe [00:10:20] No, this is totally not, not something we know about at all that

Sharoz Khalid [00:10:24] Iran can government, but changed by American, by, by putting, by investment money on the MPAs MNAs in the Pakistan and they meet also in the embassies and they change their mind so that they leave the MPAs of PTI leave their, you know, their party and they said our, we are, we are engaged with them politically part another political party like PML and like Narif, maybe you are familiar with Narif? Yeah, you can everyone know about this. So the main culprit, you know, whole, all, all across the Pakistan, they are considered the na, Sharif and Ari, they are the two main, you know, in you are, you can consider them that they are two main thief of Pakistan that are currently involved. And I'm, you know, I'm a hundred percent sure every Pakistani like 95 Pakistani will consider them a thi and you know, like previously when the regime chain happened in Pakistan and you know that we have a cipher from American embassy, embassy that if you cannot, you know, ibr if cannot, if Iran cannot leave the government. So it'll be a so much serious consequences for Pakistan. And if Iran leave the government. So we can, you can forgive the Pakistan and the main problem that happen, what will be happen from initial when American says that give us the air base of Pakistan so we can directly involve with Afghanistan situation, you know, then when American leave from Afghanistan, so Imran Kan said that absolutely not, we cannot give air bases to American because we cannot involve in other war.

Sharoz Khalid [00:12:21] So, so you know that Imran kan thinking is that that, and America says, and according to American, they said that our enemy should be Pakistanis enemy so they can fight. So our like Americans say that our friend is whole across the friend of whole the world. So how, how can, how, how it can be like American friend is our friend and American enemy, enemy is our friend. You know that they said that Afghanistan in the Taliban are the enemies of American, so we cannot consider that they are enemies of us. So they are the main problem of Europe and American. They said that our enemy should be the, the enemies of the, our allies. So that are the main factor that that will be affected. The Pakistanis and economy, pa economics of Pakistani. And you know that basic, like every situation in every situation, like you can say that if consider this the American when they, you know, they ask the our ambassador about conspiracy, conspiracy about like they are, they are, they send the cipher to our ambassador that you must leave, you must ask the Imran to leave the government as soon as possible and it'll be better for Pakistan. So our army and our judiciary, they are directly involved with the American and you know very well about this, that the, when the Afghanistan situation creates our army was directly involved and you know that during the, the war with Afghanistan and America, we lost over 80,000 casualties.

Sharoz Khalid [00:14:10] You know, that we, we we face 80,000 casualties. All this like

Vance Crowe [00:14:17] Pakistan lost 80,000 people during the Afghanistan US fighting is what you're

Sharoz Khalid [00:14:22] Saying. Yeah. And more than 7,000 army person died during this world, this whole war.

Vance Crowe [00:14:30] Why were they fighting on the border? Did the Pakistanis go into Afghanistan?

Sharoz Khalid [00:14:34] No, that our, our fighter, this are tribal region where most of the PTO lived and like we are saying that the Taliban are directly involved with it. You, you know that there is a no borderline initially between Afghanistan and the, our tribal area. So they are currently shuffling their location like this and this like in Osama den you can say that they are, they they was lived in aba. You maybe you are familiar with Osama? Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:15:06] Heba, yeah, sure,

Sharoz Khalid [00:15:08] Yeah. So you know that these a ese refugees, they are living in the Pakistan. So America say that maybe these a ani people, most of them are Taliban. So Pakistan army need to fight to them. So in order to fight with the Taliban, so Afghanistani people considered that the Pakistanis are our enemies. So they do like bomb blasting. You know that our past two decades we face so much, you know, of the problem about bomb blast that not came, came in Pakistan. And these are like, these are activities are not happening in Pakistan. So now the situation of of peace is very good, but you know that you know everything, that the peace is everything. If peace is is in the country, then you know that investor camps then the tourist camp. So this is the main fact you need, we need to be focused on it. So our army are fo currently focusing on peace and we need, we are achieve almost everything about the peace. So the main problem that is left in insulation. So I think that we are not controlling this and the main problem is that, that when our, when other countries are currently involved in other, in our personal matter. So this will, you know, create a damage to Pakistan and the mar crash and that, so on, so on, you know, these are happening in Pakistan there.

Sharoz Khalid [00:16:45] So,

Vance Crowe [00:16:45] So when we started, you mentioned that you had seen inflation call mob cause mobs. How does that work? You know, is is it that people show up for protests? How, why, why is this causing mobs and what does it look like?

Sharoz Khalid [00:16:59] Like you are no better. That if, let's suppose that you have a hundred rupees and your expenses are more than a hundred rupees, how you can manage, i I am asking to you that how how you can manage, you cannot manage,

Vance Crowe [00:17:12] Sell whatever you have. That's it. Yeah, you can't. So,

Sharoz Khalid [00:17:14] So how you can manage, you can manage, so the ma so only the two solution will be left whether you suicide or whether you protest for your right. The only situation too will be left whether you quit the life or whether you protest for your right. So mob, the mob that basically they are occurring and they are the inflation creating mob because they fight for their rights like a common Pakistani need the basic commodities, not, they do not need a luxury life. They need a 2, 2, 2 time meal. Only you can get, you are getting my point.

Vance Crowe [00:17:58] So you're saying that the, that the, they really view themselves as at the point where we either get the government to change or do something about this or we're dead.

Sharoz Khalid [00:18:07] Yeah, that, you know, that only possible solution is that, that if we increase our exports, so the dollar, the dollar rate that is around about currently 212, you know, 212 rupees, $1 is for 212 rupees rues. So you know that everything we buy from outside is in, we are trading, trading with the dollars. So if the dollar prices increases, so it mean that the c the basic items that people are using will also increase. Like you can say that basic floor in previous government, the floor rate was 800, now it's 1400. You know that. And if the, and the rate of bills, electricity and gas, the bills are currently rising. First in initial previous government, the rate was 13 rupees per unit. Now it's around about 38 rupees per unit. So these are the basic things that we need to be reduced to, you know, do overcome the inflation. You know, that if a common Pakistani, like they are doing a job, they are round about 25, not more than 25,000 rupees. And you know that my neighbor, he receive a bill of 32,000, his income is 25,000 and he received a bill of 20, 32,000. You can manage how, how they can manage.

Sharoz Khalid [00:19:40] He has a seven children, he has a seven children, one wife total, they are nine. So whether they pay a bill or whether they try to eat what, you know, this is the alarming situation in Pakistan. So we are very worried. And,

Vance Crowe [00:20:01] And and how, how, how, like is it in a crisis mode right now? Or are you saying it will become a crisis soon?

Sharoz Khalid [00:20:09] It it is currently, it is currently a crisis. Is it is it is a currently crisis that are, you know, our, that are flowing throughout the Pakistan.

Vance Crowe [00:20:20] We know nothing at all about this in the us right? Like no matter how much you're following what's going on in the wider world, all we hear about are what's going on in Europe or th the, you know, the battle between Russia and the Ukraine. But people's countries suffering from the inflation prompted by the way the US treated the dollars is not something people are talking about here.

Sharoz Khalid [00:20:42] I need to add one thing more that after when the COVID impact was down, was getting down after that Ukraine and Russian, you know, the war started and you know that the main major reason all across the world, the inflation rose. I think in American I have read about the American, you know, the commodities of prices in America also rises the gas prices and fuel prices in America also rises. So, you know, inflation, this will inate all the, you know, the subcontinent, whether which in Asia, whether in in Europe and whether, whether it is in Europe. So the how you know that Russia, you know, they are currently talking with the broan that you can buy the petrol or diesel or these fuel items in lesser price. But you know that, how, how can I tell you that American, you know, American push the pressure on Pakistan that do not buy anything from Russia. You, you know that the main problem, they said that Russia is our enemy, like American said that Russia is our enemy. So it could be enemy of Pakistan also that they, they do not want that Pakistan will trade to America or, or sorry, trade with Russia or Iran. So that is the main problem.

Vance Crowe [00:22:10] And do you think that it's possible that Pakistan would say, you know what, the United States, you've not been our friend, our we our problems are so bad that we're going to go out and buy from Russia. Do you think that that's a possibility?

Sharoz Khalid [00:22:25] You know, that the only possible solution that if we are slave, then we cannot buy. If we are independent, then we can buy, you know, the current new government is slave. Literally it's a slave. It only obey the rules and regulation that America will give us. They America will give us, this is it. You can follow this. Okay, ka

Vance Crowe [00:22:49] Well, and that's kind of a function of how powerful your military is and the United States gives a lot of money to your military. So if all of a sudden that military aid stopped coming, then the people that are in charge in your country would come out of power. And that's probably not something that they, they want so willing to enslave their population in order that they stay in

Sharoz Khalid [00:23:09] Power. No, you are, you are talking about that America gave aid to us in previous years.

Vance Crowe [00:23:14] Well, I mean my understanding is that we sell a lot of military armaments to Pakistan and that we definitely prop up the, the military there, which then makes it so the people that are in charge, which is largely done by the, by the military, they wanna stay there.

Sharoz Khalid [00:23:31] You know, previous two decades the damage in Pakistan was more than one 50 billion. But America I think only gave us a round about 20 billion or 25 million. I'm not sure, but round about this. So if you lost one 50 billion, so someone give you a 20 billion, that, okay, okay, you can take it, take it, take it as a gesture. So no, you know when the meeting, sometime the meeting held and the some conversa conversation conversation leak between the American authorities and Pakistani authorities. So American will also say that we are paying for you, you can war, you can war with this terrorism, you can war or yes we can, we are currently involved in this that we are currently demolishing the terrorism throughout the country. So it doesn't mean that that America give us a aid to fight for them. Joe. That that's I brandan, you know, he, he told throughout the parliament that if someone gave you 10, suppose round about $10 and he said that you can play with us, okay, play with that us and we will, we will fight together. But you know that Iran in addition also told that America will did more than 400 drones in Pakistan and they kill Pakistanis, innocent Pakistanis, 400 drones.

Sharoz Khalid [00:25:03] How you can,

Vance Crowe [00:25:05] They fly drones in the United States, flies drones in Pakistan and drops, they drop bombs on them.

Sharoz Khalid [00:25:11] Four more than 400 drones to innocent people. You, you search, you, you search, you will see that. So like roundabout, I'm I'm sure more than this 80,000 casualities happen previous two decades.

Vance Crowe [00:25:29] I think that if I were in your position and I felt like the another country was, you know, harming us financially and bombing us and costing us money, I think that I would not want to talk with somebody like me, right? I would think, hey, you are an American, you're doing this too. H how do you feel about regular Americans?

Sharoz Khalid [00:25:50] Listen, I'm I'm just specific for specific for government, you know, if you think that I'm, I'm asking that or I'm telling you that Americans do, I'm not, I'm saying that maybe government official like Barack, sorry Bush you George W. Bush from the bush, the this casualities happen and you know, drones attack and you know that terrorist rose up after nine 11, you know better that after nine 11 this all situation was happened. And now I think that the situation is good when after the, they leave from Afghanistan, the peace in Afghanistan is currently good, but unfortunately like yesterday, you know, the earthquake happened there and more than a thousand casualities happened in Afghanistan. You didn't know,

Vance Crowe [00:26:43] I don't know, no, none, none of this.

Sharoz Khalid [00:26:45] You can say none of more than a thousand casual, none of this happened there and Pakistan send an aid and so other countries also send aid there. So they are, they are below the poverty line. You know that after when the American leave, you know that there is no infrastructure in Afghanistan, you know, that we can relate them also. They, they're our brother. We can relate Afghanistan and Pakistan equally because you know, we are, we are similar facing the situation that in Afghanistan previously and now there here in Pakistan. But I think that we need to stop this wire because if wire will not stop, then we do not, you know, focusing on other issues.

Vance Crowe [00:27:27] What is your sense for why Russia attacked the Ukraine?

Sharoz Khalid [00:27:32] If you can go to previous year, you know that Russia, Russia subjectively told American that your NATO is currently increasing, increasing to our border and they're, they're, you're not, they're currently increasing to our border like Ukraine and Russia told American that you do not, you do not do not enter in genome this Ukraine. So American, you know, the police in American is do not change, do not here the American say that no, no, if you can stop through one thing, we can do this and they enter the Ukraine. So you know that Russia feel insecure and they defend their their land. So I think that it is, it is, you know, that the, so many death happen in Ukraine. We also condemn this, but the American should think, and Joe Biden should think that if this death are happening, so why they cannot stop their activities of NATO in Ukraine, just go back that will be situation is solving. But they are, you know, they are sending military items and military arms to the Ukraines to fight. So who, which is the damage like Russia is facing the damage and Ukraine is facing the damage.

Sharoz Khalid [00:29:09] What about American? American are, you know, currently in their home and they are watching the movie like this, like, oh good, good, good. Like this, like Don you heard destruction happening in Russia and Ukraine only, you know, is there is any, any effect in America? No, I think no. Like only isolation happening, but other than this, nothing.

Vance Crowe [00:29:36] Yeah, and I think that when you listen to the politicians here in the United States, what they say is look at what's happened to our gas prices. This is Russia's fault. Look at what's happened to our food prices. This is Russia's fault. And so the, the inflation is being blamed on them, but there's very little conversation about how much money was printed and you know, how they treated COVID. There were many things that went on like did you know that in the United States during COVID if you owned an apartment building and your people stopped paying, the government said you're not allowed to kick them out of their apartment. And so you had people that just stopped paying rent. Well, you know, maybe they needed that. Maybe they were so poor they they wouldn't have a place to live, but that costs things, right? And so the government would say, don't worry landlords, we'll pay you money to if they don't pay you. And it, it is just, there's so many things that have happened in our country that are so different than what would've happened maybe 10 years ago or 15 years ago that Americans are watching the movie but they have no idea why things are happening

Sharoz Khalid [00:30:44] The

Vance Crowe [00:30:44] Way that they're happening.

Sharoz Khalid [00:30:45] No, I do that. Who is the responsible for increasing the gas prices and these commodities like after the, after the war started between Russia and Ukraine? So who is responsible behind this war? You could you think that who is responsible for this war?

Vance Crowe [00:31:01] I mean, I, I believe that Russia is not crazy. So in the United States they will say, oh, we support the UK Ukraine, they fly Ukrainian flags. They say Russia's terrible. But when I listened to the speeches by Putin and what he's saying, look, not only have you continued to put armaments on our borders, but there are thugs in the Ukraine that want to control the region right between the Ukraine and Russia. And they did some pretty terrible things and the United States kept propping up those governments. And so when Russia attacked the Ukraine, it was not, you know, with clean hands that the United States sits there and judges them. They they, they played a role in this. And I think that the Ukraine, Russia situation as far as the gas prices are only one tiny piece of why our gas prices are going up. We, we have refineries. We haven't built a new refinery in the United States since the 1970s we've made it. So you're not allowed to bring oil in from Canada via pipeline. There's, you're not allowed to move gas from port to port inside of the United States by ship. You have to put it all by truck. There's just many, many things that don't make any sense at all unless you're a politician being able to extract value out of it.

Sharoz Khalid [00:32:21] Russia is, you know, just defend their boundary line. They do not want that NATO will directly involve with their, you know, boundary line. They are insecure. So that's why they are just defending their, you know, their homeland. So as far you are concerning the gas prices, you know that if the Americans are currently banned their cards, their assets in other countries of Russia, so how they can, you know, manage their expenses. So that's why they increases the gas prices and they searching for new clients for their gases. So ShareLink also buy the gas from I think Russia and India also. So my question is that that why they are stop Pakistan to buy these communities from Russia, India also buy whole Asia, also buy from the Russia then, but the more important thing that America should, America also asked the Pakistan that do not trade with Russia, do not trade with Russia. And that is a mean consequence of Pakistan towards the Americans.

Vance Crowe [00:33:28] You know, when the United States came off of the gold standard, right? It used to be that if you wanted to print a dollar, you had to have the equivalent amount in gold when they got rid of that. And then eventually inflation went wild. One of the tricks that the United States played was they went to Saudi Arabia, they flew over there and they said, look, we will provide you all of the military support you need. We will give you, you know, tanks and if anybody ever attacks you anywhere close to you, we will protect you. But you have to in exchange only sell oil denominated in US dollars, which then made it. So if somebody wanted oil, they had to have US dollars. And the United States made a very serious mistake, I think a few months ago when they decided they were gonna cut Russia off from the banking system and they pushed the euro to do that because they didn't imagine that there would be enough countries that would say, well we'll just buy gas in rubles from Russia. And they didn't imagine that this could happen. And it was a terrible mistake on their, on their part. They, they really underestimated why a country like yours would would

Sharoz Khalid [00:34:34] Switch teams. I read an article about this and they, they, they put a clause that the patrol dollar, they, they asked that they a patrol dollar. You know, if the world stop buying a anything in a dollar, then you, do you consider that America will became a superpower? No, because America only believes strong because of dollar. And I think that mom kafi, you are familiar with mom Kafi sen why they are resonated. Who they are. Sure who who ated them

Vance Crowe [00:35:08] Because they didn't want, they didn't wanna denominate in dollars. Exactly. So,

Sharoz Khalid [00:35:12] So they are trading in, you know, they are trading the oil in Euro. Saddam Hussein introduced the, this process to deal with the any other countries in Euro. So America did not want the,

Vance Crowe [00:35:28] So let me ask you a question. You are a tech savvy guy. There is a new form of currency out there, the Bitcoin, how is that being received in Pakistan? Do you see, do you see people using this? Yeah,

Sharoz Khalid [00:35:41] Our young people are currently involved and they are, you know, they are sometime getting knowledge about Bitcoin and I think in the future Russia will trade in Bitcoin because Why? That

Vance Crowe [00:35:56] You think so? Yeah,

Sharoz Khalid [00:35:57] Because you know that they are, they are get rid of dollar, they stop to trade in dollar because you know that Pakistan, China and Russia, they are making plan about this, that we need to be deal with the, our own money. Like they are, they are currently planned to deal with their own money. But you know that Pakistan, I seriously say that if we have a slave government then we cannot deal with Russia and China about this. So if we are independent, then we will make, then we will give you a tough time.

Vance Crowe [00:36:33] What is China's role in Pakistan right now?

Sharoz Khalid [00:36:36] You know that China invest around about $62 billion in a cpac and I think that they are currently, you know, investing in Pakistan in the worlds in the electricity and the power generation and power distribution systems. But I think that previous government that are currently involved in the CPAC authorities, you know that they take money from the China and they build the powerhouses of very huge cost. And I think that this is not the right way that they are dealing with China, that they are making, they're making to con to they're making these like electricity project in Pakistan. But if you think that Pakistan, PMLN, this is the political party that are directly involved in the CPAC authorities, they do not, you know, the, the series about the Chinese investment and you know that recently I have read about the article that China is now limit their cpac you know, the activities in Pakistan until, and unless the better stability of political situation in Pakistan happen. So a little bit they are angry with Pakistan also. I think that when this regime chain happened, according to Imran kan that the American chain, his regime in Pakistan, so Russia also agree with his, his statement that yes, America regime chain in Pakistan.

Sharoz Khalid [00:38:19] So China and Russia, you know, they are, they do not want that America will lead any, you know, any situation in Pakistan. So that are the main reason they limit their activities in Pakistan after soon after they resume, when the political inter interference of and the political situation will get better than the American, sorry, than the Chinese will resume their activities. But recent, you know, recent like two to three month ago, you know that there are so many one, one to two bomb lost and sorry the Chinese are targeted by terrorist, you know, in Karachi, four, six teachers of Chinese teacher, you know, they are as associated by I think terrorist and in the daud them the Chinese engineer were ased by this terrorist. So they are a little bit afraid of political situation. So soon after, when the political situation will better, then they will make some investment also and they'll resume their activities in Pakistan.

Vance Crowe [00:39:34] Well this has been a, a fascinating conversation. I've learned a tremendous amount about what's going on. What do you think Pakistan will be like one month from today

Sharoz Khalid [00:39:44] Worse than this? Because you know that I I'm saying worse than this because you know that if you will be in Pakistan you will observe that you know that people are so depressed and you know that they need a better shoulder to get rid of these like inflation poverty, you know that after the independence, some few, some few leaders work for the Pakistan, but most of them they do not. They work for their own self. They make their buildings, they make their asset outside the country, not inside the country. They money laundering their money and they turn their black money into white through and they're getting through all the money from Pakistan and shift their money to outside. So according to report, I'm not sure about the report, but they said that if the all money that are money launder from the Pakistan, if it'll be returned back so we can pay our own whole loan and we can, we will be in a better solution situation if we can pay their loan, pay our loan and the Europe and Europe will, if the Europe will cooperate with us through the, these money laundering money.

Sharoz Khalid [00:41:15] So if they return our money of money laundering so we can return the loan to the IMF and maybe IMF will resume our plan. Like you are, we are currently, you are talking about the IMF plan throughout the Pakistan end, but IMF is not giving us a loan scheme. So I think that if politically stability will happen, then we'll see that after one month Pakistan will grow.

Vance Crowe [00:41:46] Well Shiraz, you've done great work for Ben and I. If people had editing work or or work that they were interested in, in you doing, where would they go to find you?

Sharoz Khalid [00:41:57] Yeah, you can, I, you know that Ben is a very cooperating guy and I think that yeah, initially they guide me well about this, that you can do this, you can do this because we are, you know, in new, in business and when seriously he guide me so much. Well, and sometime, you know, that misunderstanding happening, but you know, that extremely is a very cooperative guy and no, you know that a legacy interview was created by us and we are currently working on this SEC website and I think that he is the best teacher also. Maybe he is listening.

Vance Crowe [00:42:37] Oh, of course. Yeah. But, but Ben is is like, loves working with you guys. So if people wanted to work with you the way that Ben has, how would they find your business

Sharoz Khalid [00:42:47] In nowadays we are, you know, that currently talk with the, the client on WhatsApp and email through email. We do not have any like personal and company email. Company email. So we are currently developing our, their own company. So when it'll be established then we can, you know, interact with the people through our official email. But now I have a personal email like share rose itech@gmail.com. You can contact me there.

Vance Crowe [00:43:21] That's, I'll put it in the show notes. Thank you so much for, for coming on today and talking about it and we'll check back in with you to, to keep tabs on what's going on with Pakistan.

Sharoz Khalid [00:43:31] Okay? Yes.