How Ordinary People Convince Themselves Genocide Is Righteous: Attorney on Jewish History

Isaac Amon [00:00:00] So, you know, I used to think when I, when I went to Europe and I was working in the Hague, or I've gone and participated in panels and conferences, sometimes people said to me, oh, you know, you're so lucky you don't experie. The, the security for synagogues in the Jewish community over there is, I thought in a sense, was kind of crazy because there are bars or security guards, machine guns, it's, it's extremely difficult to be apprentice. You unfortunately, so many parts of the world. I'm Nicholas Barlett, co-owner of the World's first Popcorn Board game Cafe, living in Fulton, Missouri, and you're listening to the Vance Crowe podcast.

Vance Crowe [00:00:36] Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Today we sit down with attorney Isaac Amon. Isaac is an interesting person and is a member of the Jewish community right here in St. Louis. And as a kid that grew up in small town central Illinois, I knew a lot of Catholics and kids from other Protestant religions, but I never really knew anyone that was Jewish as an adult, even though I met people from the Jewish faith and we could build friendships, there was never really an opportunity for me to ask all those questions that accumulate in your mind from knowing about people from afar, whether that's reading about them in the Bible, or watching movies or hearing about them in popular culture. So I got to sit down and ask someone all these questions about their culture and traditions, and it really turned into this beautiful conversation. Quickly, after we get done discussing the different faiths, we get to talk about things like victimization and antisemitism going on in the us. I found myself being really curious about this very different perspective that is not one that I see on a day-to-day basis. And no matter where you are right now, listening to this podcast, hearing Isaac's interpretation of what's going on in the world may give you a clearer picture about the world around you. We're gonna get to that in just a moment. But first, I want to talk about an experience I had doing Legacy Interviews last week. Two people that I interviewed said the same thing. They were in their nineties and they got done with the interview, and they expressed that this conversation was deeply important to them.

Vance Crowe [00:02:13] Not just because they got to talk about themselves and reflect on their lives, but because they got to share stories in context that they've always wanted to talk with their family about. But there was never an opportunity. These stories weren't necessarily bad or good. They were just the stories that make up their life and the things that need to be passed down to have a complete picture of who a person is and where they came from. That's the rare thing that comes from doing these Legacy Interviews by sitting down with me. I'm a neutral third party. I get to ask pro questions, I get to open things up, and we have all the time we need to explore ideas in a way that creates the context so that somebody can pass down the stories, wisdom and values that they have deep in their heart, but they don't always have a chance to talk about. If you're interested in having me sit down with your loved one to collect these stories, to be passed on to the future, go to Legacy Interviews dot com to find out more. Over the last few weeks, I've talked a lot about different ways to listen to the podcast, and one of those is using the Fountain app. Fountain is trying to create what they call Podcasting 2.0. Now, it doesn't really matter to me that much if you listen to us over there, but I believe that this is an important platform because I think it's going to be much harder to censor podcasts over there. Not only that, but instead of running regular ads where I take your attention and sell it to advertisers, instead just the very act of listening to my podcast will accumulate Satoshi those smallest little bits of Bitcoin and they give them to the podcast in exchange for your attention.

Vance Crowe [00:03:53] If you'd like to check out podcasting in a whole new way, download the Fountain app and just check out the Vance Crow podcast there. It shouldn't take very long for us to get high in the charts there, and that helps us spread out to a wider audience. Also, as we're talking about expanding to a wider audience, remember that writing a review about this podcast, giving us five stars, helps the algorithms to know, Hey, this is something important. So if you're trying to help the podcast succeed, definitely take a little bit of time to give us a good rating, to write a comment, and to give us reviews because these are the sorts of things that have helped us really expand the audience in the last few weeks, and it makes a big difference. Alright, without further ado, we're gonna head to the interview with my man, Isaac Amon. Isaac Amon, welcome to the podcast. Thank

Isaac Amon [00:04:41] You, Vance. It's great to be here.

Vance Crowe [00:04:42] So when I was in the seventh grade, I was in my church Sunday school and I made reference to the Jews, and my Sunday school teacher said, oh, you can't,

Isaac Amon [00:04:51] You can't

Vance Crowe [00:04:52] Call them the Jews. That's not proper. And I've carried this around with me as though, like that term, somehow I was using it wrong. Is it improper to call Jewish people the Jews?

Isaac Amon [00:05:06] It's, it's a tough question because it's been used over the centuries in some sort of an attempt perhaps to, to make them the other, because it's always been, again, traditionally they're the Jews, they're not us. So it could have that connotation. I think today, especially in the United States, in the western speaking world, it's okay to say Jews as opposed to Jewish people because of course, Jews are people, and we don't say Christian people, Muslim people, we just say Muslims, Christians. And so I think it's okay to say Jews and personally I would be okay to say the Jews, but just be aware that that's the historic significance that some people might feel uncomfortable with saying just the, the, the Jews. So if, if you wanted to be safe, I think you could say Jews, Christians, Muslims, that's usually how, in fact we talk

Vance Crowe [00:06:01] About it. It's gratifying to me that this is not just a slam dunk, like Oh yeah, or oh no, that there is some sort of like thought that goes into this because I remember being like, well, I'm reading it in my Bible, it says the Jews. Right. And then, but then having that teacher, I, which I, I respect him, he was like a great guy. So he wasn't trying to do anything weird. But I, growing up in small town central Illinois, I literally did not meet a Jewish person that I was aware of until I was 18 or 19 years old. So I had no context for having this conversation. Sure,

Isaac Amon [00:06:32] Absolutely. You know, that also speaks to just how incredibly small Jews are. The Jewish people really are, you know, I mean, I I I'm sure you've done research, but you know most people, right? There's 8 billion people on the planet. They do surveys, studies. How many Jews do you think there are around the world?

Vance Crowe [00:06:52] I really don't know. Several million. I don't, I don't know. The

Isaac Amon [00:06:55] Answer is about 15 million.

Vance Crowe [00:06:57] Okay. So

Isaac Amon [00:06:58] Jews constitute 0.2%.

Vance Crowe [00:06:59] That is really small of

Isaac Amon [00:07:00] The global population. And usually even when I ask people, you know, everyone assumes hundreds of millions or 50 million and and it's such a, like an infinite decimal amount of the global population,

Vance Crowe [00:07:11] Then why with such a small percentage of the population, does everybody know? I mean, there certainly must be other religions that have 15 million people. I don't know. Zoroastrian, do they have 15 million people?

Isaac Amon [00:07:22] They have less, I would imagine. But I think for example, Sikhism in India, they have around the same number of adherence. But yeah. Well, but you know, Judaism is, is certainly one of the oldest religions. It goes back depending on when we date the emergence of it, but at least 3000 years. And it's been foundational to Western civilization. I mean, it's the, the mother religion in some sense, the progenitor of both Christianity and Islam, which are a lot of those same principles and ideals from Judaism. And so through these daughter religions, if you will, Jewish ideals have been disseminated. And, and it's true, Jews have been incredibly prominent in many fields. And I think that gives it the type of, you know, greater, greater publicity, greater prominence to a people that, again, is, is so incredibly small in terms of numbers.

Vance Crowe [00:08:22] Yeah. You know, I think about when I, so I lived with a guy from Afghanistan, Muslim, I knew a lot of Muslims, and they always talked about Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all Abrahamic religions. Right. But I guess until you said this just now, I didn't think of the Muslims as having come from Islam, but that is essentially like the progenitor religion. Yeah,

Isaac Amon [00:08:46] Well, it, Muslims are adherence of the religion of Islam.

Vance Crowe [00:08:50] Right,

Isaac Amon [00:08:51] Right, right. Just like Jews, Judaism, Christians, Christianity,

Vance Crowe [00:08:54] Christianity. Yeah. 'cause Christianity, like we have our Old Testament and New Testament,

Isaac Amon [00:08:57] Right. Well, so they have a different book, a different religious book called, right, the Koran. But many of the stories are the same. There's some differences, but by and large, there's many similar accounts. And the founder, the prophet Mohamed, who, who, who according to Islamic tradition, you know, received the revelation from, from God, from Allah, you know, he lived in Arabia, right? Which is today Saudi Arabia. But at the time it was just Arabia, and there were Jews and Christians who lived there when he was growing up. He was influenced by them, by by ideas. And he actually, you know, when he, when he formed a society in, in Mecca and, and in Medina, those two holy cities in Islam, he included Jews and Christians as part of the community. Not to say he didn't fight them, obviously he did, in some cases it didn't end too well for the j for Jews, the Jews in that case, these Jewish tribes. But nonetheless, you know, the, the three faiths, as you said, the Abrahamic faiths, Judaism, Christianity, and s Islam have a very long history and, and it's completely interconnected.

Vance Crowe [00:10:07] So we should maybe go back to square one, which is, you know, you're a guy that I just started asking questions about, you know, being Jewish and what this means. But like, who, who are you and why are you connected with the Jewish faith here in St. Louis?

Isaac Amon [00:10:22] Well, I'm connected with Jewish faith because I'm, of course, I'm, I'm born Jewish. I I, I was born in Memphis, but I've been in St. Louis since I was a kid. My mom's family is, is from here. So, and this actually goes into something I'm sure we wanna talk about maybe a little later, but just to kind of set the groundwork. So there's at least two different types of Jews in terms of origin, of, of country, of, of ethnicity, which gives rise to difference in customs. So there's the Ashkenazi Jews, which are the, by far, the, the, the dominant number. And these are Jews who come from Germany, Poland, Eastern Europe. So most people, when they think Jews, they think coming from that part of the world. And again, by sheer numbers, it's true. But there, then there are these Sephardic Jews who really come from Spain and Portugal, the Liberian Peninsula, and we can again get into it later, but they were expelled and forcibly converted and created basically a global diaspora. And these Jews, these Sephardic Jews, went everywhere to North Africa, to the Ottoman Empire, to Turkey, Greece, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq. And it kind of created, in a sense, two different, again, type of cultural communities. Obviously both Jews, both having the Torah, the Old Testament, and the foundation's the same. But customs and and culture are a bit different. Languages are different. Any, and the reason it's relevant to me is because my mom's side is the Ashkenazi Jewish family that actually came to Ellis Island in November, 1922 from Ukraine.

Isaac Amon [00:11:57] And that was my, my grandmother on my mom's side. And then my grandfather on that side was, was born here in St. Louis. But his grandparent, or his parents were from Lithuania and Belarus, and actually fled, you know, the, the per persecutory laws of the czars and pogroms against Jews in the Russian Empire. And on my dad's side, my dad was actually born in Istanbul, Turkey, and his parents were from Istanbul and from Aleppo, Syria. But my grandmother on that side grew up in Beirut, Lebanon, when it was the Paris of the Middle East in the 1940s. And so my grandfather, who for whom I'm named on that side, spoke seven languages. That was a professor of engineering. And they moved, my grandparents moved from Istanbul to Chicago in the fifties. And so, and my grandmother spoke five languages and, and worked at the Marshall Field Store on State Street in Chicago for 40 years as a fashionista. So I had this upbringing where I had grandparents from completely different worlds in some sense. So again, my, my Sephardic grandparents had this completely different background than my maternal Ashkenazi grandparents. But it's an exceptionally enriching synthesis. And there's this massive history behind each of these traditions. In a sense. I got the best of both.

Vance Crowe [00:13:18] I mean, it's so fascinating because, you know, in Christianity, I'm well aware, I grew up Catholic, that, you know, there's Catholics and there's Protestants, and these are two different forms would, but I'd never even heard that there were two different forms of Judaism. To me, it was just one large thing. Would you make that comparison between Protestant and Catholicism? Or, or no, it,

Isaac Amon [00:13:39] It, it's, it's similar perhaps to think about it in that way, but I'd say it's actually not the case because my understanding is Catholicism and Protestant system have some theological differences.

Vance Crowe [00:13:48] Yeah. Fundamental theological.

Isaac Amon [00:13:49] Fundamental theological.

Vance Crowe [00:13:50] Yeah.

Isaac Amon [00:13:50] So, so there's not a fundamental theological difference between Sephardic Jews and Ashkenasic Jews. It's more of cultural, you know, values and for example, cuisine language. So my, my one grandfather from St. Louis, who you know, was in the American Army World War II and encountered antisemitism there, you know, he spoke Yiddish, of course, but my other grandfather from Turkey, those Jews don't speak Yiddish. They speak another language called the Dino, which is a medieval Spanish that's kind of been mixed with, you know, Greek, Turkish, French, other languages that these Jews encountered throughout the Mediterranean when they were expelled from Spain and later Portugal in the late 15th or early 16th century. So, so the point is, it's, it's different in cuisine and maybe outlook different, some religious, you know, customs might differ. For example, the big difference we, we always joke about is on Passover, you know, Jews don't eat lemon bread traditionally, right? The Bible says you have to remember the exodus going out of Egypt the last seven or eight days, and you're not supposed to again have these lemon bread or wheat, you know, oat barley spelled, and the question arose hundreds of years ago, is rice. Rice is, of course, is that in that prohibition? Well, obviously it's not weed, it's a distinct substance, but it looks like a grain of, you know, it could look and be mistaken for a grain of weed. And so, you know, a big difference was should you kind of have a fence put up and say, let's not have rice just to be safe, that we don't consume lemon on Passover.

Isaac Amon [00:15:25] And Ashkenazi Jews ended up saying, we're not gonna have rice, and this party juice said, but that's such a staple of our diet, such an important, you know, part of our identity that they do have it. And it endorsed to this day, Ashkenazi Jews don't have rice safari Jews do.

Vance Crowe [00:15:42] Wow. I like the cuisine things. You think like, oh, what a small decision like that or would, would make, but stack it over a few hundred or even a few thousand years. It really stacks up to entirely different ways of life. Because you've gotta grow it. You've gotta right in incorporate it. You've gotta make it, you know, bread, for example, I actually just got back from Canada. I gave a talk on, I said, a conflict older than bread. And it was basically saying the rural urban divide happened around the fact that once people figured out that you could create bread by adding yeast to this wheat porridge right now, you could have people specialize so they could build ovens, and these ovens would make it so now you can store calories for longer periods of time. And then all these things stacking up to it. And I didn't realize until you were just talking, 'cause one of the things I point out in the talk is that the Egyptians actually have hieroglyphics at the tallest part of the pyramids inside of the, of the king's tome, the pharaoh's tome of them with tables of bread, that this was like the highest order thing that you could have at the time. And as you're describing the rice concept of diverging, like food is culture is the people is perception. Exactly.

Isaac Amon [00:17:00] It's also memory. You know, someone I, once I once met, she, she, she has a saying something like, you know, when you, when you have nothing else, you eat in order to remember. And I think that's a great way to express it because food, art, you know, literature, the means of expressing ourselves, again, it's all an attempt to remember this history.

Vance Crowe [00:17:31] Yeah. Tell me more. I mean, as, as you're saying this, I'm like, is that true for my people? And I'm thinking, well, yes, I brought a birthday cake home to my wife. Really the only thing we did was celebrate, you know, her birthday by like, you knew it was her birthday because there was a cake on the table.

Isaac Amon [00:17:45] Right.

Vance Crowe [00:17:46] So tell me, like, where does food and memory play out in your world?

Isaac Amon [00:17:52] Well, certainly it's key in the, in the Jewish speaking world. In, in the Jewish world, I mean, you know, there's a running gag you might be familiar with. And, you know, Jews are very prone to humor. And, and anyway, we, we tend to say that almost all our holidays have, you know, we recount what happens. So there's that recalled memory. We thank God we were saved from destruction, and then we eat. So, so obviously food's very integral to, to that story. And I think, you know, in some of the work also that I do, and I talk about Jewish history, but really this, I focus much more on Sephardic history 'cause it's certainly undertold under, you know, under

Vance Crowe [00:18:34] Yeah, I didn't even know, I didn't even know the word existed before you and I were to talk.

Isaac Amon [00:18:37] So, so for that. So that's what a lot of the work I do in, in terms of promoting and, and trying to preserve it. And yeah, so food figure is very prominently in, in, in, in these stories. And I'll give you an example. I just gave a talk in New York in November on kind of on this history, on my family story, on my grandparents. And after I spoke, they had some singers who, who came, who, who did the songs in Ladino, which is again, that Judeo Spanish. So it's not Yiddish, but you can think of it as kind of the Sephardic equivalent to Yiddish, right? And they sang these songs, which again, are very meaningful for people from Turkey, from Greece, from Balkans, and from the, the it because again, it's, it's a testament to that longstanding Jewish presence in, in those countries. And, and afterwards they made, there was an, there was an Israeli chef and he made Kibei. So food and music very much go together and in fact symbolize narrative for storytelling.

Vance Crowe [00:19:37] Yeah, I think the, just the very act of the dinners that, that happen, I believe it's over Passover, right? Where children are reading parts of this whole thing creates, just like they say that the Catholic, you know, there's a Catholic mass going on 24 hours a day, and you could, you could at any time of day like that creates some kind of connectivity, connective tissue all the way through the fact that you guys have these traditions around your food makes it so you can interchange people. And yet they are still connected with this larger fabric.

Isaac Amon [00:20:09] Exactly. I mean, Passover is perhaps the paradigmatic example because we have what's called the Seder, which is the order, you know, of different steps. Everything's ritualized. Every, every food represents something that happened to our ancestors in Egypt, according to the Bible, right? And, and as you said, kids are encouraged to play a very prominent role in the process. And in fact, it's a tradition that goes back many, many centuries. I'm sure that the youngest child present is supposed to ask, why is this night different than all other knight? And it's at that point that, you know, the head of the household is supposed to take the matza, right? The unleavened or the unleavened bread, and to say, this is the bread of affliction, our ancestors date in Egypt. And then you go into telling the story of the exodus from Egypt. But again, the, the, the, the child plays an incredibly important role in telling the story and actually initiating the, the storytelling that will lead to the or or initiate the questioning that will lead to the story being told.

Vance Crowe [00:21:10] I mean, like, it's really striking me like the the bread being important in your culture and like in, in Christianity, right? Or at least in Catholicism, it's the bread of life. And y

Isaac Amon [00:21:19] You know, and on Friday night when the Jewish Sabbath begins, which it's, we usher in the day in Judaism begins at sundown and it lasts, you know, until the, the following evening. So the Sabbath, the Shabbat starts Friday night, goes until Saturday night. So it's about 24, 25 hours. But you know, when we usher in the Sabbath, it's done through, not surprisingly, perhaps with, with wine and bread, you have the wine to sanctify the, the, the Sabbath. You welcome the, you know, the Sabbath queen, so to speak, coming in, gracing us with her presence. And then you have bread to, to begin the, the meal.

Vance Crowe [00:22:00] I think this is, I want you to tell me more about this. I've never heard the idea of the Sabbath queen. That's a new concept to me. But the thing that I'm really fascinated with this is that by doing this tradition in this way where you're describing it takes 25 hours, the time alone is something that would bind you together. The, the, the act of doing it all at the exact same time. This is fascinating

Isaac Amon [00:22:23] To me. And, and not only that, but in orthodox Judaism, so, you know, more traditional denomination if you will, not saying you can't do it if you don't abide by those rules, but there is a restriction on, you know, electronics, on, on driving. So watching TV, being on your phone, you can't do it. So the entire day is going, you know, having the meal with friends, family, with going to the synagogue, having prayers, reading a weekly portion from the Bible, from the Torah. And that entire day again is free of any outside distraction. It's free of anyone calling you. You're kind of in your own world for this 25 hours where it's just you kind of reconnecting with God with each other and you know, and, and I guess with yourself.

Vance Crowe [00:23:11] Yeah. To me, one of the biggest things that is going on in societies, you look around and you say, there's so many people suffering from anxiety disorders and depression, and I think it is a matter of humans being so disconnected from time, right? Like we have electronic lights, so you can take the day and extend it all the way till 10 o'clock at night. You're completely separated from the climate, right? The changing worlds. Because if you wake up in a warm house, you go to a warm car, you go to a warm office, you're not experiencing the seasons. And I don't think the human mind, you know, in the last 70, 80 years was able to keep up with the fact that you're just able to accelerate time in that way. But this tradition that you have would give it would at least slow you down one seventh of the time.

Isaac Amon [00:23:59] Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's absolutely necessary, I think. And yeah, everyone talks now about taking time off and, and you know, a concept of a weekend if it exists. I know some people don't have one or kind of joking, they work all the time, but I mean, honestly, if you don't take time off to, to recharge your batteries, it's not sustainable. I think in any, in any line of work that you do, you have to have some time to be with your friends and family away from.

Vance Crowe [00:24:25] Yeah. And when I grew up as a kid, there were two times, so Wednesday night was when they did CCD, that was when, and I'm sure there are people listening right now to this podcast. They're like, oh yeah, Wednesday night was when we went and did, it was not Sunday school, but it was like Sunday school on Wednesday night. And then Sunday itself, if you had a basketball game or a soccer game and you went to it instead of church, that was considered like blasphemy. Right now it's not that way. And people have like five days of work, and then you've got two days of kids' sports. Yeah.

Isaac Amon [00:24:56] And

Vance Crowe [00:24:56] It's just a, you know, a constant cycle, like where, where people don't take that break.

Isaac Amon [00:25:02] It's tough. It's, I think it's increasingly challenging in the modern world for, for for sure. I mean, you know, the problem with technology in some sense is that, is it becomes ever easier to connect with one another, which is great, and transcend boundaries and borders and instantaneously talk to people on the other side of the globe. On the other hand, where does that leave time for yourself? And you're expected to be on call 24 hours a day. You know, you can't just, you know, say I'm leaving the office at five o'clock, six o'clock and I'll get back to you in the morning.

Vance Crowe [00:25:32] Yeah. But a religious edict in some ways frees you from these things, right? Yeah. It's a little bit like, hey, I, I, you know, it's not a choice I'm making each weekend. Whether or not I'm going to unplug it is already been made. There's a right value in that.

Isaac Amon [00:25:45] And I think even, even for people who aren't as, I don't know, religious or even aren't as observant in a sense of that, of the, of the, of the edict, as you said, you know, I think, I think a lot of people, a lot of Jews are cognizant of the importance of having this Shabbat of honoring, even if you drive to synagogue, at least you're going, you recognize that what the day means, you go with your family and friends. There's a certain gravitas to the day. For sure.

Vance Crowe [00:26:16] So you mentioned the Queen Sabbath, this is like, what, what, what is that?

Isaac Amon [00:26:21] Well, it's just a, the Sabbath queen, and it's just a, a, a type of mystical tradition that because the sabbath, that that Friday night to Saturday night is, you know, it's holier than the other days of the week is more special, right? As we've been talking about. And so there's a certain sense of holiness that permeates the day when, again, you're in synagogue when you're with your family and friends at home, home and you're sharing meals together. And so the idea is, is that when you, when you have the, you know, the meal in the evening, and some people go to synagogue, of course in the evening on Friday, you, you kind of say, welcome Sabbath queen. You know, again, it's, it's, it's an illusion, it's a metaphor of sorts. But the idea is that you recognize something's changed. The important, you know, spirit in, in a way has arrived. And now it's Shabbat, now it's Sabbath. Something's fundamentally different than the other days of the week. And so we, we kind of call that the Sabbath queen again, to, to recognize that there's some something more spiritual on that day.

Vance Crowe [00:27:22] So when you think about the, you know, one of the biggest differences, I don't know that much about Protestantism. It's just like not Catholicism, right? So I kind of know, and I've had friends over the years, but it's not like we sit down and talk about theological differences. But one of the major differences between Judaism and Catholicism, for example, is the concept of confession, right? So people feel like I've sinned and I've either sinned in these mortal ways or these small ways, but before I can go have bread with everybody else, the Eucharist, I go to a priest, I don't actually do this, but Catholics do this. I, I would sit across from a priest and I would tell them my sins. And then that priest would say, these are absolved and this is your penance. How do the Jewish people handle the concepts of, I've made some violation against God or my fellow man, and I need to alleviate this thing. Because to me, the Catholics figured something really important out is that like, you can't live with this guilt, you can't live with these problems. And even if the priest isn't actually doing

Isaac Amon [00:28:27] Anything,

Vance Crowe [00:28:29] The act of saying it out loud has some real power in letting you move past it.

Isaac Amon [00:28:36] So that's a, that's a great point. And I think that Judaism does agree with that. Now, confession is not made to another person. That's a big difference. So we're encouraged to confess all the time. Some people even, you know, they say, I, I haven't done this myself. I, I, sometimes I think I should, in a sense, maybe, maybe it, it really is cathartic, you know, for your soul, for yourself that they actually confess, you know, before bed every night to God. But probably the most significant date on the, on the Jewish calendar, as you might know, is Young Kippur, the Day of Atonement.

Vance Crowe [00:29:14] No, I don't know, know this, okay. Yeah.

Isaac Amon [00:29:16] So probably the two most significant holidays are, there's Rosh Hashanah, which is the Jewish New Year, and then 10 days later there's Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. And so you have these 10 days from, you basically have a new year, and Judaism holds that God, in a sense is judging each and every person, every animal, every nation. What is gonna be the fate for the following year. You have 10 days to confess to God. There are, are, are a lot of different prayers that are said collectively. So we actually confess together, but not to each other, to God alone, espe for the sins, of course, committed against, against God. Now, in terms of against fellow man, Jewish tradition actually holds, God doesn't forgive those sins unless the other person forgives you first.

Vance Crowe [00:30:06] Really?

Isaac Amon [00:30:07] Yeah. So you can't just say, you know, I've done these horrible things to other people and I'm just gonna go confess to God and everything's good. No, no, no. You have to go ask for their forgiveness first.

Vance Crowe [00:30:20] It would seem that that would give man a lot of power over his fellow men because you could say, I'm not going to forgive

Isaac Amon [00:30:26] You. That's true. And so the, the, the, I don't know, the rule, the tradition establishes, if you genuinely ask for forgiveness up to three times, the other person's supposed to forgive you. And at that point you've experienced as much contrition, you know, as you can, as you've done, again, really genuine.

Vance Crowe [00:30:45] Yeah. And in truth, if you were a person that, that looked past three genuine apologies, you would be carrying a burden in and of yourself that's probably not that different from the sin itself.

Isaac Amon [00:30:55] Yeah, yeah. In some sense. And so at, at that, at that point then, you know, you go back to synagogue, especially in this Yom Kippur, the atonement, which, which is a fast state by the way. So no food, no water for the 25 hours. And, you know, Jewish people around the world are in synagogues, you know, it's one of the most observed days of the year. And at that point, we believe also that the decree from on high, right, from the, the heavenly decree, in a sense is actually sealed. So there's that sense of your very life and you know, is on the line and, and our fates for the coming year for all of us.

Vance Crowe [00:31:33] And if you didn't do that, it would be a bad time to die. Then you, you're like taking some, some, some chance then in, in a way.

Isaac Amon [00:31:41] Yeah. I mean, you, you, you're taking a chance. That's true. But I think also, you know, if you didn't go through that process again of confession, of asking for forgiveness from God and your fellow man, and, you know, a lot of people give charity, you know, in hopes of having a, it's not a bribe of course, but, but you give a charity to a good cause and it's hope of having a better dec, you know, decree or, or tearing up evil decrees that might have been issued, you know, again, in some heavenly way against you. It's all designed, I think, to draw you closer to God and, and to the community, you know, at large.

Vance Crowe [00:32:16] So as a person that has come from two different diasporas and also is focused on things like criminal tribunals and are involved with the Holocaust Museum, you certainly must have a view on why is it that the Jews were targeted or have been targeted over and over and over again relative to other, other faiths or other groups.

Isaac Amon [00:32:41] I mean, it's still a very difficult question. It's perhaps one of the most unanswerable ones. I don't think there's any one answer that, that, that is satisfactory. I mean, what we know is that antisemitism is probably the world's oldest hatred. It goes back to the very beginning in almost every society, every culture. And what I can at least say is that it seems that persecution of Jews is usually a harbinger of worse things to come. In some sense, Jews are like the canary in the coal mine. That antisemitism usually leads to worse persecution

Vance Crowe [00:33:19] Of other people outside of

Isaac Amon [00:33:20] That, of other people too. But Jews, Jews are conspicuous, have been very prominent. And for many, you know, centuries, especially say in Western Europe and Christendom, right? And in the Middle Ages, Jews we're the only minority, right? So it's so easy to define.

Vance Crowe [00:33:35] Oh, that's super interesting. That like in Germany, for example, everybody would've been Christian, right? Except for the Jews and there weren't black people or Hispanics or, or Right,

Isaac Amon [00:33:47] Right.

Vance Crowe [00:33:49] Fascinating.

Isaac Amon [00:33:49] And also, you know, it must be acknowledged that for a long time though, the Catholic church, you know, famously in the Second Vatican Council or Vatican two in the 1960s, you know, absolved all Jews of, of, of, you know, forever being guilty of the, the crucifixion of Jesus. But that, you know, the church unfortunately played that up for centuries. And it's not surprising that that image of the, the Jew and substance being guilty of deac of, of killing Jesus. It, it also stirred up, you know, popular resentment. It was always in the background in, in, in, in Christian countries. And it wasn't easy. It, it was, it, lemme put it this way, on one hand, you know, the church has said for a long time, I think really the, the teachings of St. Augustine, that the Jew must be around the Jew has to bear witness that, you know, we're the eternal observers in some sense. So we have to be, we can't be fully eliminated or annihilated. On the other hand, though, that doesn't mean you can't restrict and punish and persecute. And so I think the church for a long time was caught between these two opposite poles. 'cause on one hand, it's encouraging. The Jews are always responsible for the death of Jesus. On the other hand, we need them to be around. And like I said though, it's not surprising that after centuries of inculcating this type of thinking in the masses, you know, unfortunately, Jews are always been the scapegoat.

Vance Crowe [00:35:14] There's something really important about de describing this, because I grew up after Vatican ii, obviously. Yeah. So my only understanding of the Jews is like, oh no, we, you have to protect them. They are, you know, the god's first people. That's where we come from. So there was no concept that like, oh, the Jews killed Jesus. It was like those olden people did it. Right. But not now. But if you lose that to history, if you lose that context that it, that that this used to be the way the Catholics were, or the way that the Protestants were right then it's a, it's a memory that it means you could repeat your same mistakes again if you don't remember it.

Isaac Amon [00:35:55] Of course. You know, and there are some, I understand some Catholics, you know, who reject the reforms of, of Vatican two Oh yeah. As well. They know, they don't accept a legitimacy of that. But, but, but you're absolutely right. You know, but that's why Vatican II was so revolutionary, because for a long time, even I, again, not that I'm Catholic, but I've read quite a bit and into this, and you know, they even had on Good Friday prayers, there were the famous, we pray for the, the Prophis Jews, they might see the light. And that was only abolished in the 1960s.

Vance Crowe [00:36:24] Okay. Yeah. I was like, that's not any part of a prayer I've ever heard.

Isaac Amon [00:36:27] But again, that's why Vatican two is so, is such a foundational event and the history of Jewish Christian relations,

Vance Crowe [00:36:33] Which actually explains one of your areas of expertise, the Sephardic Jews, which are, I didn't realize until I started looking it up on Wikipedia. Right. So those Jews have been in the Iberian Peninsula, Spain, Portugal, since they believe the time of Solomon. Like this is really ancient. I didn't even realize, I mean, people were in Europe, let alone that the Jews were in Europe, let alone that then they were there for so long that in the 15 hundreds when the Catholic said, you have three options, convert, be expelled or die, essentially. Yeah. And that's the, the diaspora that you, I guess, represent or try and make sure the, the, the story is not lost to history.

Isaac Amon [00:37:18] Yeah, yeah. That's, that's right. You know, as far as we know, they, they may have been around it's speculation, by the way. There's not concrete, you know, definitive proof that Jews were around. But what we do know, and the reason it's speculated back to at least King Solomon is, you know, from the Bible alone, it tells us that King Solomon and King Hiram of Tyre, who was, and what is now modern day Lebanon, were actually very close allies and friends. In fact, one of the books of the Bible, it might, I believe it's two kings, says that Hira actually sent cedar trees.

Vance Crowe [00:37:53] Oh, yes. Right.

Isaac Amon [00:37:54] To help build the temple.

Vance Crowe [00:37:55] Yes.

Isaac Amon [00:37:56] And Fania at the time was a great maritime power and Mediterranean, so they're establishing settlements and trading centers all throughout the Mediterranean basin, north Africa, Italy, Greece, Portugal, Spain. And so it stands to reason because these, you know, kingdoms were adjacent to one another. Right. And because of the very close alliance, there were Jewish sailors who perhaps joined their Phoenician, you know, counterparts and journeyed with them and wound up in these places as early as King Solomon. But for sure, the presence of Jewish communities sated to at least 2000 years ago when

Vance Crowe [00:38:32] I, my very simple reading of antisemitism was that the Christians had edicts against loaning money. And the Islamic way of loaning money is really complicated. It's, it's, you can't loan out large sums the amount that has to be forgiven and how quickly it could go. And so the Jewish faith was, this is what was told to me. I'm, I don't hold the, I'm, I'm open to being wrong about this, but that the Jewish faith didn't have the same rules against usury or loaning out money. And that when people end up becoming indebted to another group of people because of their banking rules, then it's very easy to hate them. Is this something that, have you heard this before?

Isaac Amon [00:39:15] Yes. Now, you know, I, I don't think the Judaism doesn't prohibit, usually I think against necessarily non-Jews. But I think it's, it is frowned upon, but it's not an outright prohibition. But I think in many cases, you know, Jews were restricted from so many occupations and professions. They had no choice but to become the money lenders, to become the tax collectors. You're right. It's not a job that endears you to people. But in many cases, you know, they're the king's Jews. That's what they were called a lot of times because they were collecting on behalf of the World Treasury. But of course, when there's an outburst and there's anger, resentment, well, you know, that image of the Jew, as you know, associated with money and greed, a lot of it does come from that. And it's unfortunately not true. They, again, were forced into these types of positions be or maybe being, you know, peddlers or things like that because, and, and doctors, to be fair that, you know, that Jews have had a long history of medicine, but so many other things were denied to them. And, and they had no choice but to take on those roles. And I guess in some way, they also felt that being, you know, associated with the king would give them a degree of protection. You know, sometimes it works, sometimes it didn't.

Vance Crowe [00:40:24] Yeah. And if you're a minority, finding those things out well before and figuring out what job you can do to be useful in a community is very valuable because people don't like the other.

Isaac Amon [00:40:35] For sure. But, you know, I think utility can only take you so far because, you know, in the course of my research and work on, on Sah, the Iberian Peninsula, you know, Jews were very useful, I mean, economically, socially, politically, to the state. And nonetheless, it didn't stop the expulsion on mass of tens to hundreds of thousands of people who had been there for, you know, 1500 years. And, you know, we still don't know exactly why. I mean, if you read the edict of expulsion from Ferdinand and Isabella, who are the, who are the Catholic monarchs, the ones who completed that Reconquista, the reconquest of Spain and the Muslims, you know, it's, it's actually given as kind of framed in a religious sense that, you know, it's our obligation to make Spain right. One kingdom, one faith. And so the Jews have to go, because at this point, we got, you know, they were useful to us to finish the war against Muslims. Right. But now we're all unified, we don't need them anymore. And you know, and of course when they're expelled, then you know, their property's confiscated too. So,

Vance Crowe [00:41:42] Oh, there you go. Yeah. And that's always like a convenient little side thing that happens in, in all kinds of war situations. Exactly. One of the things that struck me in doing research before this conversation was I kind of had this perception that Christians and Jews were much closer aligned than Jews and Muslims. But you find out in the Iberian Peninsula that when it was the Muslims overseeing that peninsula, they got along with the Jews quite well, that the Jews were allowed to own property. They weren't expelled, they were a part of the community. This was really surprising to me, largely because it, like, it went against the story about like, we're the good guys, we've always been the good guys, and we'll always be the good guys.

Isaac Amon [00:42:25] I mean, it's true. I mean, Jews have, you know, fared, you know, well at times under Christians and, and well at times under Muslims, and sometimes Ill under both. It's, it's not just because they're Christian or Muslim. I will say, however, that perhaps one reason there may have been better relations, at least historically speaking, is, you know, we talked about Christianity has long had that crime of DSI against Jews, Muslims of course, don't have that and never permeated theirs

Vance Crowe [00:42:53] Type of thinking. Now that's right. Because you didn't kill their, their savior. I see. Yeah.

Isaac Amon [00:42:57] Right. So, so Jews were never, you know, accused of that, and that never permeated the consciousness. Not to say they were not restricted or limited, they were, but I think it's a lot easier to overcome and, and, and, and to perhaps make contributions in a society where that's not, you know, where the, the, the, the spiritual authority's not, you know, urging that now and again, not just, there are many bishops, many peds, many people who who've supported Jews, you know, across the ages. It's not always been that way. But again, from like a macro perspective, there's this been this long line of thinking and, and, and, and promulgating this, this, this idea that's just absent in Islam.

Vance Crowe [00:43:38] You mentioned about the Jewish people being persecuted as a canary in the coal mine in popular media. Right now, I hear that antisemitism is running wild. I don't know anyone that has antisemitic thoughts that they share with me. So I find myself being in this weird tension of being like, if there really is a whole bunch of hate out there, I don't want that, that does, that seems like a bad thing. Right? I, and but if there, if, like, you, you also don't want to go chasing after something that is, like, people are saying, there's all these people out there that are bad, that hate these people. We need to go stop them. Because then you start chasing after ghosts. What is your perception? Is, is there antisemitism on the rise? And where could one see that to better understand what's being talked about right now?

Isaac Amon [00:44:28] Well, I mean, I think even if we look at the numbers, for example, the FBI, that tracks hate crimes,

Vance Crowe [00:44:34] Right?

Isaac Amon [00:44:34] Jews constitute against 0.2% of the global population. But even in the United States, I think Jews are about 2%

Vance Crowe [00:44:43] Of hate crimes,

Isaac Amon [00:44:44] 2% of the American population. Oh, okay.

Vance Crowe [00:44:46] It

Isaac Amon [00:44:47] Constitutes 60% of religious hate crimes

Vance Crowe [00:44:50] Wow. In

Isaac Amon [00:44:50] The United States.

Vance Crowe [00:44:51] Okay.

Isaac Amon [00:44:52] Which is an, again, amazing country, and it's founded on religious liberty and, you know, inclusivity obviously there, there not to say that, you know, there, there are sins that even United States unfortunately made, and we're working to through this process, of course, such, you know, with, with slavery. But, but, but even today, you know, it's not like antisemitism's absent, absent. I mean, the other day you might have heard there was a Molotov cocktail Hurd at a synagogue in New Jersey.

Vance Crowe [00:45:21] No, I didn't hear this at

Isaac Amon [00:45:22] All. You know? Yeah. It's, you know, thankfully I haven't personally experienced it really, you know, St. Louis is great. I haven't really, although I will say, I will say, although it's not clear, you know, if it was intentional or not. But if you remember, even a few years ago, five, five years ago, six years, six years ago, the, one of the Jewish cemeteries here in St. Louis was vandalized. Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:45:43] That's right. But a

Isaac Amon [00:45:44] Hundred gravestones were toppled, including, including my mother's grandmother. That was one of the stones toppled over. So it, unfortunately, it does happen, you know, even in the United States now, thankfully, again, I think it's, it's rare in the sense, especially vis-a-vis other countries. But, you know, there was the, the shooting in Pittsburgh at the, the Tree of Life synagogue in 2018 that killed 11 people.

Vance Crowe [00:46:05] Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Isaac Amon [00:46:06] A Shabbat, there was a shooting at a synagogue in Poway, California by San Diego that on Passover, that killed one parishioner there, injured the rabbi, you know, and, and if you might remember just a year ago, the rabbi in the synagogue in Texas was held hostage. That went viral because it was Facebook live streaming. So, you know, I used to think when I, when I went to Europe and I was working in the Hague, or I've gone and participated in panels and conferences, and sometimes people said to me, oh, you know, you're so lucky you don't experience the, the security for synagogues in the Jewish community over there is, I thought in a sense was kind of crazy because there iron bars, there are security guards with machine guns. It's, it's extremely difficult to be a practicing geo, unfortunately, so many parts of the world. And here, you know, it's taken for granted. You can walk into a synagogue, we don't have guards. And unfortunately for many Jewish communities in the United States, that's changing.

Vance Crowe [00:46:59] I mean, to hear you say this is is very good for me because I'm like, ah, you know, I think I heard something on the news, you know, once or twice. But if you're living in that existence, right, it's much easier to forget things that happen to other people than if you're like, no, I mean, like, that was a, if if it were happening in Catholic churches in rural America, I would be like, whoa, no, our people are being persecuted. Right. This is good. I mean, and, and frankly, several of the things that you mentioned, like I vaguely kind of maybe remember these things, but not really. Whereas for you, you're like, bing, bing, bing, bing.

Isaac Amon [00:47:35] Yeah. Well, yeah, I think it's for everyone, you know, we only, we have selective memory, selective recall. It's not an indictment of you or I think anyone else. It's just, there's so many things going on in the world, and it seems like, unfortunately, there are shootings all the time and, and there are killings and, and, and crimes, and, you know, how much can the brain process? But of course, you're right, living in a Jewish community and being a part of it, it, it's obviously incredibly important to my, to my own identity. And it's something of course, I I try to, you know, know more about, and, you know, attacks on synagogues anywhere are problematic. But being, you know, a proud American, it's like something strikes at my, at my gut, at my, or my, my, my heart, my soul. Because, you know, how could it happen in the United States of America? Again, that's, that's dedicated to the promise, you know, of liberty and justice for all. And, and, you know, Jews have been so integral, even to the founding of the Republic, you know, with several of the founders and, and all the procedural protections.

Vance Crowe [00:48:39] Wait, tell me more about this.

Isaac Amon [00:48:40] Well, you know, there were Sephardic Jews who arrived, you know, earlier on to the eastern seaboard of the United States. They, so a lot of them, you know, the Inquisition and, you know, there was one in Spain, one in Portugal. They're established in the late 14 hundreds, early 15 hundreds. They last until the 18 hundreds. I mean, we're talking over, you know, three centuries of a global persecution. So even when Jews leave, they're not free of, you know, over, you know, looking over their shoulder. And really, it's to, to kind of clarify, it's not open Jews that they're going after, but the Jews are forcibly converted to Catholicism. They're even, then, they're kind of distinguished as the other, because they're known as new Christians forever,

Vance Crowe [00:49:32] Forever.

Isaac Amon [00:49:33] They, and all their descendants are referred to by this term. It doesn't matter how many generations passed since the baptism, there are regarded as new Christians. And so a lot of the restrictions that were placed on Jews, you would think, okay, we're, they're converted. They're not Jews anymore. They can, you know, rise to any position in society. Well, a lot of the new Christians start taking over positions that they held, or their ancestors held as Jews. They say, you know what, now Jewishness is not, it's not a faith, it's something in, in, in your biology. It's something that the baptism can't remove. And so these new Christians are persecuted and investigated by the Inquisition, and, and many of them are burnt alive and, and, and, and what's called an auto or an act of faith. And this is not just in Spain and Portugal, but throughout the global Spanish and Portuguese empires. I mean, we're talking in Brazil and Mexico, we're talking in, in India, we're talking in, in Africa. The Inquisitions went around the world. And so when the founders of the United States, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin were, were drafting the Constitution, inquisitions still existed.

Vance Crowe [00:50:41] It's, these are totally separate concepts to me.

Isaac Amon [00:50:46] Well, except

Vance Crowe [00:50:47] I, I'm saying I'm glad I'm, I'm glad your perspective is here. I'm just saying you're the first person to ever merge these two ideas together in my mind.

Isaac Amon [00:50:53] Yeah. Well, you know, I, I try to always, when I look at timelines, I try to see things happening in parallel with one another. You know, sometimes timelines are laid out so neatly for us, and we don't tend to think of like, wow, this person existed at the same time as this person or this society was around at the same time as, you know, as this one. But you know, it, but it's, it, for me, even it was like an amazing kind of, you know, we really tragic discovery to make that, you know, we're drafting the Constitution in 1787, and the constitution's ratified in 1788, and the Bill of Rights come in 1791, and these inquisitions are still around now. They had been sworn of a lot of their power. You know, it was process of enlightenment and reform, criminal justice reform, even for that time. But the point is, it still existed. And, and there were still new Christians who were, who were being persecuted and others Protestants and free thinkers and dissidents. But there again, by the way, you see that Jews in one way or another, as new Christians are the canary in the coal mine. The inquisition didn't stop with their persecution. It went on to other groups that were deemed to be subversive in some way to the state. And so a, when a lot of these Jews, or these new Christians had fled Liberian peninsula, they came to the new world, they settled in Brazil, in the Caribbean, Mexico, and there were some who ended up in North America, in New York, even when it was a Dutch colony known as New Amsterdam. And in fact, Peter Stuyvesant, who was the director general or the governor,

Vance Crowe [00:52:25] Oh, yeah.

Isaac Amon [00:52:25] He attempted to block the admission of 23 Jews fleeing the Portuguese Inquisition. And he said, they're, they're Christ killers. We don't want them here. They're gonna, you know, pollute the, the, the colony. Even then, it's the same tropes being made by him, and it's not just antisemitic. He was, you know, I think a pretty devout Calvinist. And he didn't like Catholics either Papus as he called them. And he says, if we allow Jews, then we have to allow all these religious minorities then. But again, Jews are this, somehow the canary and the coal mine. But, you know, he was overruled by the Dutch West India company, which controlled the colony. They created a synagogue, which endures, to this day, the congregation still exists. So it's almost three hundred and sixty, three hundred seventy years old. And then they went elsewhere in Philadelphia, Charleston, South Carolina, Savannah, Georgia, and they established synagogues and, and, and these other synagogues are congregations again, they endure to this day from the 17 hundreds.

Vance Crowe [00:53:19] And there's something fascinating about being able to endure, right? Like my, my own family, like our name endures as, as you know, half right? Your mother's name doesn't, you know, it goes on, but not, I don't think, we think of ourselves as a people amongst, even among Catholics, right? Like, we're Catholics, but we're all our own, you know, family. And, and if you met another Catholic, you might be like, oh, we believe the same way, but we don't think of ourselves as like a people, you

Isaac Amon [00:53:48] Know? It's interesting. And I think that goes to how do we even define Judaism or, or, or, or Jews, because it's, it's a faith in a sense, of course. But on the other hand, it's a type of nation. I tend to think of it, if you look at the Bible, it looks like, you know, we were a family according to, according to the Old Testament Hebrew Bible, you know, Jews are the, the ancestors of the Jews, the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and, and their families. It was one family, right? So it was a people in a sense, before it became a faith. I mean, even, you know, the Bible tells us in the Book of Exodus about the revelation of Mount Sinai when God gave the 10 Commandments and, and to, to, to the Jewish people there. So even then, it's a sense there's a nation building process going on, but

Vance Crowe [00:54:35] And they were persecuted there too, right? Yes.

Isaac Amon [00:54:37] Persecuted in Egypt. Yeah. In fact, that might very well be the first documented instance of antisemitism, because I dunno how well you know your Bible, but

Vance Crowe [00:54:46] Pretty well.

Isaac Amon [00:54:47] So, so going to that, so what happened, right? Jacob's family and, and, and, and Canaan, they go to Egypt because there's a famine, right? And they get there and they settle on the land of Goshen because Joseph, the brother, the brothers had tried.

Vance Crowe [00:55:06] Yeah. That is the, he was thrown in the pit. Right? They gave him away. And what

Isaac Amon [00:55:09] Happened to Joseph?

Vance Crowe [00:55:09] Yeah. Well then they gave him into the, to the Pharaoh, and he became relatively important 'cause he had dreams and Exactly, he could see the future, right?

Isaac Amon [00:55:16] So he became the Visier, the Grand Visier, the,

Vance Crowe [00:55:18] Oh, you're the special person underneath the king, second,

Isaac Amon [00:55:21] Second to the king.

Vance Crowe [00:55:22] Wow.

Isaac Amon [00:55:22] So when his family comes to Egypt looking for grain, he's in a position, right? And he saves Egypt from famine according to the Bible. And he's, you know, reveals himself dramatically to his brothers at the end. He could, he couldn't hold his tears back any longer. And, you know, he invites his family to settle on Goshen, this part of, you know, Egypt. And they do, and they're apparently very, you know, contributory. And, and, and then it says, right, the famous verses the Pharaoh, who knew Joseph died, A new Pharaoh rose, who knew not Joseph. What, at that point, the Pharaoh says to his advisors, who are these people? They're foreigners in, in the event of a conflict or war, they might side with our enemy. And at that point, we have to basically enslave them.

Vance Crowe [00:56:11] And then they're stuck there until Moses comes along. Exactly.

Isaac Amon [00:56:15] And, but it's amazing, isn't it? The Pharaoh's first thought upon ascending the throne is these people somehow, again, in attempt to make them the other, might turn against us. What possible reason could he have had to think that when they had already been settled there for generations and made contributions? The Bible doesn't give us an answer, but I've always found that fascinating. Again, it's one of the first marked, you know, acts of, of antisemitism enshrined as an official policy.

Vance Crowe [00:56:40] So as a people, you know, you're taught this, it's a part of your culture, it's a part of your religion. Do you think that your people have a suspicion of government that's different than other people? Like I, I, I would think that it would be healthy long term.

Isaac Amon [00:56:58] You know, I, I think in some sense we're always wary of it. You know, certainly Jewish tradition long teaches, you know, you can't place your trust in any man, right. Put it in God alone. Because the thing is that even the most beneficial people are only transitory. And when one person dies, or if there's a coup or something happens, you know, unfor, unfortunately, policy can, can flip on a dime and, and persecution can start. And again, in a place where there was persecution, it's now become a place of refuge. So, yeah, I I I'm not going to say that I think, you know, okay, could this government eventually something, you know, I'm not thinking about it all the time, but certainly from a historical perspective, yeah, we recognize you. You have to move, you have to be prepared for that eventuality. And I think, by the way, that act also goes to why in Judaism education is so highly prized, because it's portable, because it's something that no one can ever take from you. It's something that's transmitted, especially in the household and family schools. But even in the absence of schools, right? Jews were always known for being literate, for teaching. Even girls, you know, how, how, how to write or how to read. You have to be able to read the Torah, Hebrew Bible. You have to be able to read the prayers. And so that's always formed a, you know, fundamental part of, of, of, of Jewish education. And, but again, I think it's partly because we recognize anything that's real estate, quite literally landed, could be taken, could be confiscated, but no one can ever take, you know, what you have in your mind.

Vance Crowe [00:58:27] Yeah, there is, there's a tension that I like am detecting that you would have to both teach your children to be wary of this, you know, man's governance without turning them into we are victims and we were always victims, right? Like, how do you, how do you keep someone alert and not make them feel as though, 'cause I know the times in my life when I am the least good, it's when I'm like, oh, I'm the victim of this thing, or these things weren't fair. And so the fact that you have this long history of all these things, how do you keep that from being an excuse to not succeed?

Isaac Amon [00:59:08] That's a very good question. I think some people would say that's just in, you know, a divine decree that the Jews are going to suffer the brunt of persecution at various times, various ages. But it's all with some sense of the ultimate good that it's all necessary. You know, Judaism does believe, of course, in a, in a messianic redemption and, and the Messiah and in the

Vance Crowe [00:59:30] Really, yeah. Tell me more.

Isaac Amon [00:59:33] Well, I mean, Judaism holds that, you know, again, longstanding Jewish tradition. People diverge on specifics of course, but there is long been a belief that there will be, you know, the first temple was destroyed, second temple was destroyed, right? The first one in 5 86 BC by the Babylonians, the second in seven C by the Romans. And there's a belief that according to some people, a third temple will be rebuilt at some point, and it'll be heralded by the end gathering of exiles of the, of the Jewish exiles around the globe. They will return to the land of Israel and they'll rebuild the temple. And at this point, or before, again, it's a debate, but there will be a Messiah or some type of Messianic age that comes. But, and this is a crucial difference with, with, of course, Christianity is the Messiah is not, you know, is not divine in any way. Messiah's a political figure, king, a descendant of the house of David, but he is still a man, might be the most learned and, and perhaps, you know, a great prophet like Moses. But, but again, he's still a man who will live and die.

Vance Crowe [01:00:40] And when you think about like, family lineages, right? The, the claim that Jesus makes is he's from the house of David, and that's that that whole line, at least that's what Christians believe are lineages tracked so well in the Jewish faith that you believe that you could detect who was a part of David's line in the same way that, that the Muslims have, you know, they track their own faith from the, from the prophet. Yeah.

Isaac Amon [01:01:05] So one, I think it's somewhat easier in, in Islam because it's, you know, relatively later recent in a sense religion. I mean, they claim, of course, it's the original faith somehow got corrupted over time and they restored it. But, but you know, it's only comes about in the early seventh century as opposed to Christianity, right? Which is the first century, and Judaism, which is somewhere in the bcs. So it's harder, of course to maintain unbroken lineage back, back, you know, 2000, 3000 years. I, I've heard, I haven't personally seen, but I've heard of some Jews, especially famous families that could claim a, a ancestry back to some famous rabbis of a thousand years ago, who in turn have a tradition that they, for example, are descendant from King David. So in this sense, you do have people living today in the 21st century who could claim descent from, from King David according to their family tree. And I haven't personally seen it, but it's, you know, I've been told it.

Vance Crowe [01:02:03] Well, we've been having a fun exploration of faiths. But you've been actually in a very different context because you went and worked with the international, well, I'll let you talk about it. The, the work you've done with Yugoslavia and the, the international criminal tribunals. How did you get involved with this? What is it? And, and what, what were you working on?

Isaac Amon [01:02:26] So, great question. So again, so I've, you know, I've grown up here in St. Louis went to school here to do high school Wash u undergrad, and I liked Wash U so much. I stayed on for law school. And in law school I was very much attracted in a sense to the international arena. And, and so, you know, I got involved there, there's a place, it's still there. I think that's undergone some changes, but it was known as the Whitney r Harris World Law Institute. And Whitney Harris was one of the prosecutors of the Nuremberg Trials with Robert Jackson, who was the Supreme Court justice, while simultaneously serving as the Chief American prosecutor there. And, and Whitney only died in 2010 at 97. So he was the last living member of Justice Jackson's original team prosecutors. And I unfortunately never had a chance to meet him. He died before I started law school, but I did meet his widow. And even at the time, I thought it was so cool that we had someone in St. Louis, who was directly connected to, you know, one of the most defining moments of the 20th century. And so, you know, and, and I've had a passion for criminal justice issues and criminal procedure. And so I think it was kind of a combination of, you know, of, of history. We have a person here, a legacy here connected to Nuremberg, and it involves criminal justice, and it involves bringing these perpetrators to justice and kind of a, kind of, you know, coalesced for me. So anyway, when I was in WashU Law School, so I ended up, well, I, I was actually able to do, I was fortunate, a study abroad program, my, my, my one summer, and I had a program in, in the Netherlands and Ure University, and I did a program on, on a course on, on atrocity crimes and war crimes, crimes against humanity and, and genocide.

Isaac Amon [01:04:17] And then I ended up having a program kind of on comparative law, you know, from, from different legal traditions, from, so from common law of England and United States to the European continental to kind of religious traditions that, again, the Abrahamic phase. And so I, I've always been fascinated by it. And anyway, I encountered people when I was in Europe who, who worked at the tribunals and these tribunals, you know, they really date from Nuremberg. So from post 1945 era, there's the famous, or infamous, depending on how you look at it, the international criminal court, which, which I'm sure people have heard of, but that's only 20 years old. And that's a permanent court that's designed to try these, you know, crimes of genocide and crimes against humanity and war crimes. But the, the Nuremberg trial was actually an ad hoc military tribune established by the victorious allies, right by Soviet Union, France, Britain, and the US to try these Nazis. And actually in the Far East, they did with Japan as well. Oh,

Vance Crowe [01:05:20] I didn't realize that.

Isaac Amon [01:05:20] Not as well known, but it was called the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, the I-M-T-F-E. So they did bring at least the highest ranking, living, you know, Japanese and, and Nazi, you know, war criminals to justice. Some people say it was a form of victors justice, you know, there've been criticisms of it. But by and large, again, these are extremely defining moments and obviously in, in, in, in, in legal history and in world history, I think. And anyway, so I met people who had worked in, in the Hague, not at ICC, but there were these ad hoc tribunals. So this is the one you mentioned, the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. So as you might know, in the 1990s, there was a massive conflict between these former republics of Yugoslavia, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia. And you know, it, it is what many people deemed to be a genocide occurred. These countries fought Bosnia, I think apparently, you know, took the brunt of many of these attacks. And it just evolved into gruesome, you know, ethnic cleansing and interneting fighting. And the most infamous moment occurred at Reza when 8,000 Muslim men and boys were gunned down and, and a mass grave. And so,

Vance Crowe [01:06:33] By who?

Isaac Amon [01:06:35] By Bosnian Serbs Serbs. And, and this, these are the, if I can remember their name, it's been some time Melodi and IBC who were leaders of this Bosnian Serb faction, and they gun them down in a mass grave. And again, that seemed to be an act of genocide. And anyway, I met people who had worked on that tribunal when I, when I was doing a study abroad, and I thought, this is amazing work these guys are doing, and is there any chance I could play a role? And I met someone and he said, you know, if you're ever interested, let me know. I'll see if I can put you in touch with someone. You know, I still would have to apply, go through a vetting process, but I could at least, you know, kind of put my hat in the ring. And in the following year, I, I didn't expect it to have it so quickly, but WashU Law School at the time, again, I'm not sure if they still have it, but they had a, a fellowship, it's called the Dagan, Loki Public Interest Fellowship. And I ended up applying for it, and I said, you know, if I get this fellowship, I will be able to apply for this position in the Haas. It was a legal internship, so not like I'm being paid for it, but I'd get experience. And, and this fellowship would help obviously offset costs. And so I applied for this internship and I said, so and so told me to reach out to you. I, you know, I reached out to him first one thing led to another, and they finally said, you know, okay, there's an opening if you want to talk with the team. And I said, okay. And it turned out that I was able to go there for three months, and I worked on it.

Isaac Amon [01:08:06] Now, what's interesting is I actually, the opening was on one of the defense teams. So I got to see what defending one of these accused actually look like at the highest levels. And, you know, it's not easy, it's not pretty.

Vance Crowe [01:08:20] What did it look like? Were they saying No, we didn't do it, or No, we weren't responsible.

Isaac Amon [01:08:24] So you get various defenses. It's actually quite interesting. Some people deny it outright, like

Vance Crowe [01:08:30] Milovich just was like, it didn't even happen. Right? Right,

Isaac Amon [01:08:32] Right. There's complete denial. I mean, complete, and you can see the bones. I mean, you can see the evidence, you know, anyone could go and, and see it. And, but there are others who say either it, it was, it's exaggerated, right? Or it's, again, it's not, wasn't my responsibility. I couldn't do anything. There's an attempt to distance yourself from it. For me, it was more, not trying to say it didn't happen, but making sure the law is, you know, is, is faithfully applied, meaning there's obviously a ground set of rules everyone agrees upon, and the accused is entitled to a defense. I'm not saying I could do that full time, but, you know, we wanna make sure the prosecution is held to a certain bar, to, to proving their case, right? Beyond a reasonable doubt. That's how our legal system works. And I got to see the evidence the prosecution had, and I went through the trial decision, the trial court decision below, you know, it was 2000 pages or something. And I had to say, okay, here's previous cases that set precedent, right? Set the law, did this trial court actually apply the law faithfully? And you know, I, I worked on the appeal with this team for three months. It was quite, you know, it's a, it's exhausting work. I mean, going through papers, but I felt I was doing in a sense of service, because I'm getting experience and I, I want the prosecution, you know, to prove their case. Meaning

Vance Crowe [01:09:55] What a powerful, powerful concept.

Isaac Amon [01:09:57] Oh, it was, it was, and what I mean is, of course, if the person's innocent, I don't want them, but you examine the evidence, you see where it leads. If the person guilty and the prosecution can prove it, justice is served. But on the other hand, if, if the prosecution can't prove it, if there's not evidence, you know, I, I'm a firm believer in, in that maxim that it's better to let you know 10 guilty people go free than to have an innocent person convicted. Because unfortunately, that that happens too. And, and it's important we recognize.

Vance Crowe [01:10:25] I agree. And if you don't have that, then the ability to become a mob that, that has like thirst for blood because they believe that this is the way they will feel justice has been served is so easy. So, so having a, a pure attempt, like a real attempt to defend people, even if you think like, wow, it's obvious they did it, but like making sure that you're not o overstepping because to put an innocent man to death is, or horrible, right?

Isaac Amon [01:10:57] And, and, and not only that, you know, it's interesting and, and it's, in a sense it's shocking looking back on it. But even at the Norberg trials, I find fascinating that when the allies were discussing what to do with the defeated, you know, Nazi leaders, Churchill is the, is the one who agreed or or suggested that we just machine gun, there's no need for a trial because it's guilty. Everyone knows they're guilty. Why go through this long, arduous process? And it was the Americans, it was Harry s Truman, our, our our, you know, from, from Missouri, from from the show me state who said, we need to leave a record. We need to prosecute them, afford them every defense, right? That any accused would get, because we don't. And Justice Jackson was very, I think, prominent in this regard too, as the prosecutor, we don't want future generations to wonder what would they have said in their own defense? They had every opportunity to present, they could cross examine, they saw the evidence, and now we have a lasting legacy.

Vance Crowe [01:11:53] And was it a hundred percent conviction rate in your mind?

Isaac Amon [01:11:56] No, it wasn't. There, there were, there were some acquittals, which also proves that wasn't just Victor's justice and actual few acquittals, others were, the sentences were commuted. There were 10, I believe 10 who were hanged, you know, at the conclusion. But it wasn't a pure conviction, right? It was, you know, decided in accordance with their responsibility culpability. And,

Vance Crowe [01:12:20] And the story is so important, like that historical memory. I, I was just this morning listening to a guy that went to the Canadian trucker convoy, and he recorded people talking about their experiences, and he had one set of tape that he had never released. He hadn't gone back and listened to it. And now it's one year past. And regardless of where you stand on the, on the whole trucker convoy was a good or bad, the, the idea that like, hey, we don't want to forget why we were there. We don't want anybody that's more powerful with their media to be able to describe it in a way that they want, that that maybe wasn't the way we saw it. But if you don't have a way to pass that story down, kind of like the s the Seder, the, with the, the story of the Passover, like you were talking about, then you are inevitably going to repeat those decisions because humans don't change over time. The only thing that changes is the stories that they tell themselves about who they could be if they're not careful.

Isaac Amon [01:13:19] Yeah, no, I would completely agree with that. That's you, you know, and that's, again, Nuremberg is, you know, almost 80 years ago now. But, and by the way, I, I must add, you know, there's one last living Nuremberg prosecutor who's turning 103 next month, Benjamin Frenzi, he was just award of the Congressional Medal of Honor. So, so, you know, hats off,

Vance Crowe [01:13:40] Hats off, yeah. Well, 103.

Isaac Amon [01:13:42] Yep. And he, he still, he still talks as far as I'm aware on his experiences, but he served with General Patton, by the way, invaded is one of the, the, the troopers who landed, I think at Normandy. And

Vance Crowe [01:13:54] Well, coincidentally, right before you call, right before you came, I was actually speaking with my mentor who's 103 and dropped in on D-Day and, and Oh,

Isaac Amon [01:14:03] Amazing.

Vance Crowe [01:14:03] So there are only a few of those people left.

Isaac Amon [01:14:05] Yeah. And

Vance Crowe [01:14:05] He's, you know, that they're still alive, is truly amazing. Right,

Isaac Amon [01:14:09] Exactly. And that's the importance of, I think it also goes back to, you know, preserving memory and narrative and, you know, whose story's being told, whose narrative is being shared. It's amazing that, you know, humans can look at the same event and come away with completely different, you know, interpretations and meanings and Oh,

Vance Crowe [01:14:26] I have that. So I do these things called Legacy Interviews. So when I'm normally in this space, I'm recording people's family stories. And one of the experiences is that people walk in and I ask them, what do you see in that painting right there? And you would think, like, you're looking at that and you're like, well, they would see exactly what I see, but I've asked 80 or so people, what have you seen when you look at that? And I have never, not even one time gotten the same answer. And so you think about that and you say like, this is powerful, right? Because everyone comes at their, their thing. They're looking at literally the exact same thing and what they take away, what they notice, what they remember all different. And when you think about something complicated, like people fighting one another, right? People shooting at one another, all this chaos going on, grabbing those stories and being able to tell them from all these different angles is the only way you'll come out with some amalgamation of the truth, because the, the real truth we will never actually know.

Isaac Amon [01:15:26] Right? And I think that's also, it's interesting, that's one of the legacies even of, of Nuremberg and even of these other tribunals, you know, so the, the international criminal tribunal for the former Yugoslavia closed that it, it wrapped up its work, you know, in I think 2017 or 2018, after about 25 years, it's done. It's a part of history. But you know, there's still people who have different narratives about what happened, who's responsible. And, and even once does the moment of responsibility start, how far back in time are we going, you know, what I did to you or, or, you know, is respons to what your people did to my people hundreds of years ago.

Vance Crowe [01:16:02] This is an important conversation because it's happening in our culture now, right? Where people are saying, Hey, I, I think that my, I, you know, maybe my family was descended from slaves, and we have this burden that we've carried around for the all these years, therefore, you, people in the modern age, we should, you know, rectify that. It's so difficult for me to say no, there's absolutely no validity to that, right? Because like, maybe you are enduring incredible pains and your family had to suffer through things, but at the same time, like guilt over time is the type of thing that your, your people dealt with, right? Where you being accused of killing Jesus, you know, thousands of years ago. So how do you, how do humans get through this, this really difficult, muddy, complex time?

Isaac Amon [01:16:53] It's a struggle for sure. There aren't, there aren't any easy answers, at least. I mean, I I actually ask myself that question a lot. I mean, perhaps we compartmentalize in a sense, and, you know, you, you go through the rituals, you tell the stories, it's important to preserve it at the same time, you know, you're just living your everyday life as well. And, and, you know, I, I don't always think about this as, you know, as hard as I might seem to, to think. But, you know, I I try to give myself a break at times from thinking about these things because I mean, I can't always think of, of the bad things too. You know, one thing I I really like to promote too is the incredible good things that happened. You know, we should focus on the positive. It's not excluding the bad, but, but history and especially, you know, Jewish history, there's a tendency to consider it really just the story of tears, you know, a valley of tears, I think when, when scholar called it, and it's true, unfortunately, there's been a lot of persecution, but there have been extraordinary moments of triumph. You mentioned earlier, Vance, about the golden age of Spain between Jews, Christians, and Muslims living in relative harmony with each other. That lasted for about 200 years. In some sense. I think that's a precursor and to, to maybe what's happening between Israel and Arab nations with the Abraham Accords, in fact, it's called Abraham to signify that, that unity of, of the, you know, we're all descended from Abraham and I, I I think we have to promote the goodness and these, these, these stories too.

Isaac Amon [01:18:28] You know, there's, there's a book that, and you might be familiar, and it kind of, it ties into what we're talking about, you know, in the Holocaust, and of course in every genocide, and tra tragically there are so many genocides, but in the Holocaust, especially, people might be familiar with, you know, there's a concept of righteous among the nations. These are righteous non-Jews, mostly Christians, some Muslims who saved Jews from persecution. And, you know, Yad Israel's Holocaust memorial has designated about 27,000 people, as so-called righteous among the nations, and meaning they risk their own lives, positions, money, et cetera, to save Jews. It could be family, it could be up to is one Portuguese cons. In, in Bordeaux, in France, Ted Deza money saved about 30,000 people. It's estimated Jews and non-Jews, including the, you know, the artist Salvador Dali, and the, and the, the authors of the Manus, the authors of Curious George, they actually brought the manuscript with them when they fled, you know, to the, to the, to the Western hemisphere. I mean, those stories deserve to be told equally, you know, and, and as, as, as this author, he says, you know, it's such a, it's a tragedy and it's a disservice to know the names, you know, of Hitler and Garing and Himler, and not know the names of, you know, Susan Mendez or, you know, princess Alice agrees, prince Philip's mother. So King Charles's grandmother, who's who saved the Jewish family and the, and the royal palace in Athens right across the street from the Gestapo.

Isaac Amon [01:20:05] I mean, their names deserve to be remembered.

Vance Crowe [01:20:07] Yeah. And, and so important because it's one thing to say, avoid becoming this villain, but if you don't have something to go towards, if you don't have some sort of hero to, to emulate and to say, Hey, these other people at other times in their lives risk something that's very easy to be like, ah, nobody I've ever heard of risk things, I, I, you know, my people don't do this. But if you have heroes, if you know the names of those heroes, if you know what they risked, then all of a sudden the, the narrative going on in your mind when it comes time to do something important but difficult Yeah. Is different. You

Isaac Amon [01:20:42] Know, that's one of the missions, I, I don't, I don't work at the Holocaust Museum here, but one of the missions is, you know, to emphasize the importance of, of, of, of not only tolerance, but you know, acceptance, inclusivity, seeing, seeing the, the divine in each other, right? We're all created in the image of God in, in that sense, we're all equal. And, and I think that that's really important to inculcate. And, you know, it's not okay to just be a bystander when these things happen. You know, Ellie Weel, the famous Holocaust survivor, had a quote that neutrality, you know, only benefits the oppressor. It never helps the oppressed. And people think they're good, decent human beings, and yet, if they do nothing, also as Edmund Burke, it's attributed to him, right? Only thing necessary for the triumph of evils, for good people to do nothing. That's all it takes. So we must always make a conscious, strenuous effort to try to fight, you know, for good and to stand up and, and, and the story. And, and if I could just,

Vance Crowe [01:21:43] Yeah,

Isaac Amon [01:21:43] Just add that the story of these righteous, and they're truly righteous, you know, it shows that even in those darkest days of human depravity, there were people who could stand up to the Nazis. I mean, my God, that the Nazis, and, and, and they lived to tell the tale.

Vance Crowe [01:22:01] Well, I think about, you know, how intoxicating the kind, the idea of righteousness is, right? Yeah. Because if you go and look at any of these genocides that are going on, as people were being swept up into the mob, they didn't think, oh, I'm gonna do something and I'm gonna try and get away with it. They thought, somebody is telling me that this is obviously good and that this is what I should do to participate, or this is, and so you can see how people could get swept up believing that they're, they're right. Probably having a voice in the back of their mind saying, something's not right here, but, but being swept up by that concept of the mob. Yeah. So righteousness requires deep thought and really understanding what's going on, because in this age of propaganda, you could be propagandized into believing all kinds of things are righteous, and that we need to go stamp out this evil. But that's how you, that's how people get engaged and participate in genocides to begin with.

Isaac Amon [01:23:04] Absolutely. And you know, it starts, it really starts with dehumanization. And you look across history, really just the 20th century. And, and, and the, the victims are always labeled as cockroaches, as rats, as something worthy of extermination. And, you know, the holocaust or any genocide never happens in a vacuum. These are, they're warning stages. But, and again, it really begins, I think, at, at these moments of how we label each other, how we look at each other. And actually, you know, they did a study of some of these righteous among the nations. And I thought it was fascinating that one of, apparently the core, one of the core commonalities between these people is they were raised in a loving home. They were disciplined, but they were always given a reason why they were disciplined. It was explained to them, their parents, our, our support system, and gave them support. And they, again, saw each other as equal. They had a very open household of people, different faiths, and also they fought for themselves. They what? They fought for themselves. Oh, they had a very strong conscience. So even amidst the maelstrom of getting swept up in destruction, this is not right. I have to do something about it.

Vance Crowe [01:24:21] This is the thing that's important to teach people, right? The, the, like, what is it that it takes to be the type of person that stands up? Because, you know, when I read books about World War ii, the people that got engaged with the Nazis, they were ordinary people, right? Yeah, they were, that's right. They were policemen that, that for five, 10 years before that were just walking a beat. They were firemen that ended up somehow, somewhere down the line, mass executing, you know, children and women and like, but they started off as just regular people.

Isaac Amon [01:24:52] You know, one of, one of a, a, a book that really sheds light on that is called the, i, I think it's may, maybe this is what you're referring to, but there's this like police battalion 1 0 1, the final solution in occupied Poland. And, and this guy goes through and he says, some of these pe, some of the members of, of, of these people, as you said, who are mass gunning women and children in Graves and the former Soviet Union, I mean, they were teachers, they were doctors, they were firemen, ordinary people. Maybe that's the horror of it all. They're not monsters, they're us.

Vance Crowe [01:25:23] And I think that the way that it works is that you start off doing something small that that inner voice tells you, like, nah, I probably shouldn't do this. But you take that one step and then you take the next one, and the whole time you're like pushing that thought into the back of your mind until, you know, you find yourself in this situation where you're doing something horrific, and now you can't listen to that voice, because to listen to that voice means you'd have to condemn yourself and then becomes very, very difficult.

Isaac Amon [01:25:53] Yeah, exactly. I mean, there are moments when, if, if enough people were to rise up or say, this is not right, we won't be a part of this, you know,

Vance Crowe [01:26:01] You'd stop it much faster. Exactly. When, when it was much easier to stop it before the new thing gets going.

Isaac Amon [01:26:07] Yeah. A a hundred percent. I mean, if you wait too long, it's over. It's, it's not possible to put it back in the bottle.

Vance Crowe [01:26:12] So you mentioned the Holocaust Museum here in St. Louis, why does St. Louis, Missouri in the middle of the United States, why do they need a Holocaust museum?

Isaac Amon [01:26:24] So again, I, I, I don't work there, but I can tell you that the Holocaust Museum has been around since the nineties, and it was actually started by Holocaust survivors in the region who wanted of their stories to be remembered. We told, and I think it could serve again, as an effective warning sign. Again, the idea that these are human beings with stories, with fears, hopes, the same as anyone else that came to the United States, you know, as a land of refuge, land of promise. And, but the thing is, the Holocaust is a story for all of humanity. Again, it's genocide are, it's not just the Jewish story. It's a story that, you know, again, you need good people of all faiths and backgrounds to stand up, to step up as, as we're talking the righteous among the nation. So St. Louis actually plays a very critical role because the idea is you want, you know, again, everyone to experience and talking about, you know, coming from rural areas, suburban areas, urban areas, it, it crisscrosses every, I think, conceivable demographic in, in this country. So, St. Louis actually being, you know, a hub of the Midwest, and really at the center, I, I think of the United States. So geographically, it really draws, it draws tens of thousands of, of people, especially students coming from schools as pla in places from rural parts, as you said, that may never have met a Jewish person to kind of break down the barriers to show they're just ordinary human beings who, who think differently. And, you know, the Holocaust Museum did undergo a recent renovation and ideas to do more programming and to have more UpToDate technology.

Isaac Amon [01:27:58] I think one of the coolest things that's happening, you might be aware of, is using AI now to to record, you know, people's testimonies and it'll live on, in a 3D format for generations to come. You know, unfortunately, we're arriving at a point where so many of these testimonies of, of World War II vets and Holocaust survivors are just, they're going, you know, they're departing us and, you know, who tells their stories. And yes, you know, you could have children or grandchildren or people who care about it, but I mean, imagine having these people live on some sense of telling your stories themselves. It's incredibly powerful.

Vance Crowe [01:28:32] Those stories are so important. Not long ago, I had a person in here, they were sitting across the chair from me, and they were like, I, I don't know what the point is. My children bought this for me, of this legacy interview. I, you know, I view my life as like the bridge over the river qua, you know, like eventually that, that bridge just gonna get blown up. And so what does it matter? And the only thought that I had for him was, yes, the bridge doesn't remain, but what does remain is the story and the fact that you and I can talk about something, and we both know what you mean, because we both know that story. And that's why telling these stories are so important. Because the mantra of the Alamo never forget, or, or of the Holocaust museums where, you know, I hear the Jewish people saying, you know, never forget because it's hard to imagine. But I used to work for Monsanto, right? So I have this experience where people think Monsanto is actually evil. And I would go out and stand on stages, and there'd be an entire room full of people that would be like, Monsanto is evil. If I go to a college campus now, and I ask that room, how many of you hate Monsanto? There might be three hands out of a hundred that go up because they forgot it like that. And so you think about these things like the Holocaust or the Alamo, finding a way to perpetuate those stories way beyond when they happened is not an easy thing. And it does require actual, real investment people pushing that forward. 'cause it's natural to forget, not natural to remember.

Vance Crowe [01:30:04] Exactly.

Isaac Amon [01:30:05] And I, and I think it's, I really like your, your analogy to the bridge over the river, quite, which was a great film, by the way. But we still talk about it. And again, the bridge is long gone, but, but the story remains. And I think that's the most important thing. Now, maybe the story will be reinterpreted, you know, in, in coming generations or decades, centuries. But there's something I, I like to think of it as like an echo that, that remains, that endures. And you know, you never know that your story might down the line, even if you're physically not here, it might benefit other people. You know? It's, it's, it's something I do think about, I think about my own grandparents, you know, who who've, who've all passed. But, you know, their stories were so formative to me growing up. I mean, they actually, they, they various times lived with us in the house. So I grew up with them in the household for about 25 years. There was one grandparent who lived there at least, you know, that's a, that's an experience that can't be replicated, of course. And you know, I, I tried to talk to them so many times about childhood and upbringing and their parents, and I thought I asked a lot of questions. And, and yet now that they've gone, I, I feel there's many I never asked. And sometimes even simple ones, you know, what's something interesting or moving that, you know, your grandparent told you, or I, you know, or what were they like? You know, I, I, I regret, I didn't, I didn't think at the time to ask them.

Vance Crowe [01:31:30] I think that's, I have such a unique position sitting in this chair right here doing these interviews, because oftentimes the things that a parent or grandparent wants to tell doesn't have the context to be like, come here, 7-year-old. Let me tell you about, you know, when we lost two of our children to, to drowning in a pond. And it was so horrific and so hard that, you know, we just never talked about it. But this, this is something you need to know and, and, or, you know, positive things or things that explain the way that your family was, but that doesn't feel very good to tell. But if you don't tell that story, then the child that's facing alcoholism now, right? The child that is facing the vices that that took down, granddad, they gotta face that on their own. Whereas if the stories get passed down, you actually, you can make wisdom move. And then that wisdom doesn't have to be learned a second time. And the families can build on that. And, and I,

Isaac Amon [01:32:31] I, I think it also strengthens families. It it fortifies and it, it makes us think of ourselves as part of an intergenerational story, which we really are. But we, we think in terms of that way. And that's, I think also why family, having a supportive family, loving family, friends, mentors, I think is so important. 'cause it's the wisdom, as you said, that can pass on through generations. I, I, I, I, once I think someone, someone said, and, and, and I really agree with this idea that we're merely custodians in a sense of the stories, you know, for just a few generations. I, I like to say that, I mean, that's all we are, right? We're just temporary repositories ourselves.

Vance Crowe [01:33:13] Custo. I think that's right. I think that's right. And there's some amount of fidelity that living and experiencing life and being able to tell that story properly, because it's one thing to be told the story as a child and repeat it. But when you're, I'm like, I'm teaching my daughter Bible stories, like, and she's the one that prompted it. She was literally outta nowhere, was like, tell me about God daddy. And I was like, well, I know a lot of Bible stories and they're not things that, but you, you, you think about a Bible story that you learned as a little kid, and you're like, oh, I, I know this story of Moses. Or Oh, I know this story of, of where Adam and Eve came from. But then because you've lived, because I've lived for 40 years, when I go to tell that story to my daughter, now it's different. It's the, maybe the exact same words, but to me I'm like, oh my God, that would've been so hard to have done that. Or that's what this means. You know, understanding that the Garden of Eden is a metaphor for childhood is something, as a child, you couldn't understand that. But as a parent being like, I'm gonna teach you to name all the animals and protect you from, from the outside world, and there is a knowledge of good and evil, and I want you to not eat it for as long as possible. It's amazing to be that you receive the stories, and then when you go to tell them, you get something else out of them.

Isaac Amon [01:34:32] Oh, that's, I would agree with that. You know, it's, it's forever refracting the world through our own experiences, which is again, why no one interprets that painting the same way. And I think also for the Garden of Eden, if I just might add too, it's, it symbolizes loss of innocence. And I think it's really fascinating too. What's the punishment in a sense, given to Adam and Eve? I mean, it's death,

Vance Crowe [01:34:53] They're banishment, they're not allowed to go back

Isaac Amon [01:34:55] Banishment. But why doesn't God destroy the Garden of Eden itself? Why does he just banish 'em and make it unable for them?

Vance Crowe [01:35:01] It's a good question,

Isaac Amon [01:35:02] Concern. I think the answer is, is because it's the lived experience that makes it impossible for us to return to that state of innocence.

Vance Crowe [01:35:10] That's exactly right. And the, and the angel with the flaming sword, right, is saying like, once you leave, there's no coming back. And the closest you can get is to be a father that puts his children in there. And you get to watch the children walk around knowing that one day they will bite from that apple and and be forced to leave. Yeah,

Isaac Amon [01:35:29] Yeah. No, absolutely. I, I agree with that. But yeah, the, the metaphors are really interesting and, and, and they still teach us. And I think actually regardless of how person interprets it, passages in the Bible elsewhere. I mean, how do you take it? It all has meanings.

Vance Crowe [01:35:44] Before we get started, we were talking about art, you and I, before the cameras got going. Yeah. And you brought up about the Renaissance, and we were talking about sitting there and looking at some painting from this era, having, having gripped you what paintings through all your travels throughout the world have really grabbed you and, and held you.

Isaac Amon [01:36:04] Well, I, what I was saying is that, you know, some of these great renaissance masters, again, Michael Angelo, Raphael, da Vinci, of course fishing. So their paintings are still really renowned or sculptures actually, they're still are, you know, revered to this day. So I had the privilege, for example, seeing the Mona Lisa in, in person at the Louvre in Paris. I gotta tell you, in a way, it's, it's, it's like, okay, amazing to see it. And it again, this is painted over 500 years ago, like, wow, it's here. But in a sense, I have to admit it was a little underwhelming. 'cause it's a lot smaller than you might think. But on the other hand, just, you know, the expression, the way that Da Vinci did it, and it, it just, it gripped me. 'cause it's also, I think when people see paintings, it's a way to kind of enter the artist world. And so, so I think the Mona Lisa's very cool to see. I will say actually in the Louvre though, outside of even their paintings, are you familiar with the code of Hamel? Robbi?

Vance Crowe [01:37:00] I, I know of it. Yeah.

Isaac Amon [01:37:01] I mean, so it's like our first le really legal code. It

Vance Crowe [01:37:05] Is really harsh, right? I, for and I Correct, yes.

Isaac Amon [01:37:07] It's very much is that, that it's a, what we would call the l the eye for an eye. But what's interesting is, I mean, to actually see it that it survived until this day, and it's in the Louvre, I mean, to, you know, you go up to me again being a, a lawyer, having the background. But for me that was like stunning to see this in a sense as the origin, you know, of our, of our legal systems. And in some sense, I mean, it's, it goes back to this and it's, you know, from 17 or 1800 BCEI mean, you know, 4,000

Vance Crowe [01:37:36] Years old to have that level of timelessness is something that's so hard to wrap your mind around. And, and like, what must that person that were was able to paint that thing, what must they have gone through to be able to not just like, I imagine an idea that's timeless, but create it and put it in some level of permanence, and then have human beings just like the memories and the stories being told be passed down so that painting didn't just get shoved up in the attic and torn up and thrown out. Yeah.

Isaac Amon [01:38:05] Well, you know, some of it's actually just uncovered, you know, through excavations, through work. We, we, you know, sometimes there are things that we thought maybe were forgotten, you know, or just vanished to history. And they're recovered. You know, this happened a lot by the way, to ancient, you know, Greece and Rome. Why is it called Renaissance? Because it's a rebirth of classical Greek and Roman learning. It was a rediscovery of what many of them had already said

Vance Crowe [01:38:32] That, that's actually mind blowing. It's never crossed my mind that in order to have a renaissance, you have to have been there before. Exactly.

Isaac Amon [01:38:40] Exactly. I mean, there, there's a Greek philosopher or astronomer, I, I know I blank on his name, but, but he had already proposed in, you know, the fourth or third century BC that the earth, you know, rotates around the, the, the sun and the stars or other suns. So it's mind blowing to think, you know, in the 15 hundreds people are coming up with this, but the ancients that are already deduced, you know, some of these findings earlier, and they were just, you know, lost. They were suppressed and just lost, you know, to history.

Vance Crowe [01:39:09] Yeah. And how much of modern day is just rediscovering what the Greeks knew. Yeah. And then the Romans reinterpreted, and then we somehow got, you know, we're people reading Marcus Aurelius, right? Yeah. Like, we're rediscovering this thing about how to control your own vices and your own problems. And likely he was not the first to think those thoughts. Oh,

Isaac Amon [01:39:28] I'm sure he wast. And again, I think it goes to the importance of really learning history. And I, and I, I think, you know, the humanities, I, I, you know, granted, look, we're in the 21st century stems very important. Knowing technology, you know, grappling with it, what's it gonna be like in 10 years, 20 years, 50 years, whatever. But same time, where do we anchor ourselves and the story of humanity? I think that's very important to know because again, our ancestors face similar questions, moral quandaries. We're not the first generation to go through it. We certainly won't be the last technology might change, but the basic idea remains the same. And, and so I think, again, grant grounded in humanities and you know, one, it allows you to kind of enjoy life. I mean, I'm not saying science and engineering do, but there's, you know, that creative aspect to it. The books and, and the paintings and music, you know? And, and, and that's so important I think to know, because it's also a form of our, again, cultural expression that's likely in a sense to live on too. These things have lasted hundreds of years. And you know, interestingly too, you know, even in, in the, the space program, the Voyager spacecraft, right? They, they actually recorded sounds of earth, nature animals, some of the famous people of the time. That's only 45 years ago. It's meant to last, you know, and endure for thousands.

Vance Crowe [01:40:45] Yeah. The, one of the only songs they put on there was of a man from deep in Appalachia. And he doesn't use any words at all. He is just using these intonations. But if you go hear that, you think this could have been 10,000 years ago. There's no difference between, you know, that man making that kind of guttural sounds and to think it'll probably make sense 10,000 years from now.

Isaac Amon [01:41:12] From Yeah, yeah, exactly. I tend to think the time in a sense is maybe not as linear as we think. It's just a return, you know, it's a cyclical event in some sense. 'cause again, we're all, we're rediscovering things that people knew

Vance Crowe [01:41:25] Well, and in effect we're just revolving around that sun. That's all we have. Well, Isaac, this has been one of the best conversations I have ever had on this podcast. I have absolutely loved this. If people wanted to find out more about what you do or things that, that we've spoke about today, where, where would you direct them to go?

Isaac Amon [01:41:43] Well, I'd say right now, probably the best way is on my LinkedIn is just my, my name. And you'll find me also, I'd recommend, if anyone's interested in the, in the Jewish history, Sephardic history, the, the nonprofit that I work with, cultural and historical nonprofit that also puts on monthly webinars on these topics. That is called Jewish Heritage Alliance. So that's just jewish heritage alliance.com. There's a YouTube channel with previous recordings, but there's a number of initiatives and including, including exhibit that visually depicts the story of ro that, you know, I'm, I'm very much hoping will actually be here in St. Louis at the, at St. Louis JCC, in the very near future. So I think those are the best two ways to be in touch. But if you just type me, you'll, you'll, you'll find me.

Vance Crowe [01:42:31] Yeah. I, I'm, I have no doubt if you'll come back on, I'll have you on, this was fascinating and we could have gone on for many, many more hours. Sure.

Isaac Amon [01:42:38] I, I'd love to come back.

Vance Crowe [01:42:39] Alright, thanks man. Thank

Isaac Amon [01:42:41] You. Ah.