A Bay Area Copywriter on YouTube Censorship, Cancel Culture, and Living Through Lockdown

Vance Crowe [00:00:02] As the crow flies on the Vance Crowe podcast, Chad Fred Lot. Welcome to the podcast.

Chad Fred Lott [00:00:11] Thanks man.

Vance Crowe [00:00:13] So you are out in Oakland, California, and how are things going with Coronavirus Pandemic right now?

Chad Fred Lott [00:00:21] Well, we are pretty shut down man. And people out here kind of took it seriously early. Not that other places aren't taking it seriously, but we got, I think San Francisco is one of the first places to shut down. And then so many tech companies and like the company I work for, had the means of having people work from home early. So they kind of did. I mean, I remember the last few days before they told it's not coming in anymore. Like the, the bus that I ride in every day from Oakland to San Francisco was just completely empty. It was just weird. 'cause usually it's like standing room only by the time I get on it. And just, those are weird little things, you know, they just, the echo that Denberg movie contagion, I mean, just so many cues from that movie just seem accurate to the experience out here.

Vance Crowe [00:01:02] There've been some really weird books that I've gone back and read or thumbed through that now have totally different meaning to me. So I just as a start so we don't jump over it. You and I have known each other for, I don't know, six or seven years back when I worked at Monsanto, you were working at Whole Foods and doing like their branding and marketing, like their writing for how do they marketed their products, right?

Chad Fred Lott [00:01:28] Yeah. If you went into a Whole Foods on, like the West Coast when we first met, you read a bunch of shit I had written probably, you know,

Vance Crowe [00:01:36] Which like as for in, at that time in my life, there was nobody that was more polar opposite than me than than that. I now have since gained a different point of view. But I remember talking with you thinking like, I wonder if anybody's gonna see me. Like,

Chad Fred Lott [00:01:50] Yeah, well I think for me, like people were real. Like I, I've always been kind of like a, a like a cantankerous like contrarian type dude. So I think people probably would've expected it of me, you know? But you know, I I people just did not understand why I was interested in you as a person and your, your, your title that you had at the time, director of Millennial Engagement. I was just fascinated by the whole thing. And then we, we had talked before about how, like, I, I don't think I would've rocked it like that if I was in charge of Monsanto. I would've just changed the name like Blackwater did a bunch of times. But I mean, just from what you said, you know, it seems like it was a lot more innovative than we thought. And I think like from the outside, whole Foods was a lot more conservative on the inside than I think people would've thought. I mean, the Amazon thing made perfect sense to me when it went down.

Vance Crowe [00:02:38] Really?

Chad Fred Lott [00:02:39] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:02:40] Like not a surprise to you?

Chad Fred Lott [00:02:43] No, and honestly, I, I kind of respect the move in a weird sort of way. 'cause John Mackey, I've met him a few times and I got to interview him. He's like a real deal genius. Like he, but like a troubled genius kind of, you know, he, you know, he's a weird dude. Like all super Ayn Rand fans are, you know, like you don't get this like Yogi Ayn Rand Fam fan di then diagram thing that he is without like some pretty original thought. And for a long time there were all these conventional grocery stores that were just always nipping around, nipping around at the edges, like always trying to buy. And then there was that activist group, the Janet Investors group, and they were made up of like a really, a type of person who I, I find deplorable, which is somebody who's already made all their money, they made their money doing evil shit and they become vegan late in life and it changes their whole outlook on everything and they get religion on it, you know, and then they think they could do it better than other people. So they kind of like, were launching this like, activist takeover. They wanted to force a sale to Kroger. And then I think John Mackey's perspective was like, he's been in opposition to those people his entire life. Like the natural, the conventional grocery chains stood in his way the whole time. And then when it flipped over and like you can get organic everything at Target now and stuff, I think it's awesome. Like, 'cause target's close to my house, I go shop there, but I could just see him selling the ammo, Amazon, like talking to Bezos and being like, you know what, fuck these people. Like, we're gonna destroy everything that conventional groceries to tour. And you know, it's interesting, like, especially since like when they bought Whole Foods, their stock price jumped up about the same amount that they paid for Whole Foods.

Chad Fred Lott [00:04:21] So they pretty much got Whole Foods for free, like just, just a baller move. You know, you have to kind of respect it. So

Vance Crowe [00:04:28] I don't know if I ever had told you this, but I was doing a project internally at Monsanto with my buddy Rob Long, and we were asked, Hey, how would you disrupt Monsanto? If so this is super innovative place. So they would play these

Chad Fred Lott [00:04:41] Games. Yeah, that's so that's such a cool idea. That's such a cool,

Vance Crowe [00:04:45] And so I would

Chad Fred Lott [00:04:46] Love to work on that.

Vance Crowe [00:04:47] So Rob and I were invited to go up against a room of tech people and we had to present our idea ahead of time. And first we said, we think Google might try and kind of vertically integrate part of food and I won't go into our details of our crazy plan. And then a couple days later we were like, no, no, we think it actually would be Amazon. And so we laid out this plan and the night before we were supposed to do the exercise, the leaders were like, we think this is too unrealistic. Funny. We don't funny think that that Amazon will do that. And, and we had gone so far as to say, imagine that Amazon vertically integrates like the same way that Costco vertically integrates their chicken, where they, they actually have their own growers. They send them the chicks, they raise them to specification and then bang, the Costco chicken shows up. We were like, imagine if Amazon did that, but for everything. And then they started having a playlist of food where you sign up for Taco Tuesdays and they send you the food for that and you sign up for different playlists. And they were like,

Chad Fred Lott [00:05:48] I mean,

Vance Crowe [00:05:48] We don't think that'll ever happen. And then they let us do it kind of as a game and we totally destroyed everyone. 'cause nobody could come up with a way to stop it.

Chad Fred Lott [00:05:57] I mean that's, I mean, that's what it's going to be, you know, like, have you ever seen Idiocracy, like there's this giant Costco and it's like, this is how we all ended up working at Costco. You know, like our, everybody's jobs get destroyed. I mean, I know people who are bartenders who are looking for jobs at Whole Foods or who used to work at Whole Foods, went to Tech, lost their jobs, and now are going back to Whole Foods. I mean, it's just a big weirdly stable industry. Groceries, you know, people have to eat, you know?

Vance Crowe [00:06:25] Well, and now we live in an even more bizarre world because something like a third to a half of all the calories that people were eating in the world we're done at restaurants. And that has become way, way lower. Yeah. Did you guys, during Coronavirus, did you continue to eat at restaurants and have pickup things like that?

Chad Fred Lott [00:06:44] You know, my wife's like a hardcore vegan, so it, it is often times like there's not that many restaurants we both enjoy. So we had this like little stable rotation of like four places that we would order from. And we just did. And you know, we we're, we try to get on that like saving money Dave Ramsey kick. So we do a lot of cooking at home. So it, it definitely, yeah, we don't really go out that much. Like we, we didn't before, but like years ago we were like out every night we lived in this great food neighborhood in San Francisco and you could just like spin a globe, touch a country and go find that cuisine within like a couple blocks.

Vance Crowe [00:07:21] It blows my mind that you just mentioned Dave Ramsey. That was like one of the most important things to ever happen to me is to come across Dave Ramsey. Oh

Chad Fred Lott [00:07:29] Yeah. People like, you know, I, I, I'm kind of like in my like friend circle I read a lot of books and some people are like, oh man, like, like, you know, recommend a book. What's the book that changed your life? Like Total Money Makeover has had more influence on my life than any single other book I've ever read.

Vance Crowe [00:07:46] Yeah. The debt snowball, all the, all the ways you should think about like, taking on debt, how to understand money is like for guys, like I, what I think you and I have a lot of similarities. You could be really high on your verbal ability and your ability to think creatively and abstractly, but a lot of times the numbers, it's not like you couldn't sit down and do them. It's that it doesn't make intuitive sense. And that's what he was so good at. It's like giving people an intuitive sense of how money works.

Chad Fred Lott [00:08:15] Yeah. And then he brings it down to like, just like basics, you know? And, and like the way he explains things on his show, on his podcast is how I aspire to explain things in copy. Like I want people to just get it right away, trust where it's coming from, and ultimately like, have a positive result from it. Like, I mean, I don't know what it would be like to work for that company, but in my fantasy, like I go work for this company in Nashville just 'cause it made such a difference for me and it's made, you know, even like the ideas trickling out to my friends, like the number of people that I've talked out of getting leases in their cars, it has to be at least like 10 at this point. You know, just huge shit like that. And, and following that stuff, like I have, I followed the whole thing. You know, I have an emergency fund, so it's why I'm not freaking out right now. You know, if I lost my job tomorrow, I could weather six months of, of not, and then I, dude, I, my, I've been poor my whole fucking life other than a few up until a few years ago, you know? So it was something that I changed late in life and just got really got on top of is huge.

Vance Crowe [00:09:19] And of your friends, you've talked about having a lot of bartending friends, people that run nightclubs. What are they doing in, in the absence of of Safety Net?

Chad Fred Lott [00:09:30] Man, a lot of 'em, you know, like the, the, the community there is a really strong community here. So people are kinda rallying around it a little bit. And then I think a lot of people, you know, at least in my generation who've been in the Bay Area for a long time that are in tech or trying to support things. Like there's a bar for example that's like rotating its beer stock right now and they're just selling out all these cases of beer, like super cheap. And so they just, they organize like a real small scale. It almost reminds you of like country town living or something like that. It's like people are rediscovering Mayberry in these metropolises, but most of 'em, you know, they live like I did, you know, they spend all their extra tip money on drugs and motorcycles, you know, like my, my 401k was like a bunch of two struck motorcycles, you know, that was a terrible idea. You know, it's hard, but it's fucking hard to get ahead when you live like that man. Like, 'cause you, you, you're sick for a couple days, you miss work and then all of a sudden you're like under, you know, you, you're under the gun just for rent. Like, I remember saving up that first thousand dollars felt impossible to me at, at the time, you know?

Vance Crowe [00:10:37] Oh yeah. I mean the, the, when you're first realizing how much your tiny expenses have taken up of your life and you like start to have those realizations, you have this pit in your stomach. But the only way out of it, I, I remember I was, I was working at the World Bank and I was working with just like regular line people and I showed this guy how compounding interest works and like basically was talking about his credit card debt and we were kind of going through stuff and that was the first time as an adult I was talking to another adult that had that realization about like, oh my God, look at how much money I've spent, or look how hard it's gonna be for me to catch up and, and having him literally break down in my office and be like, wait, you're the adult. You're the guy that's in his forties, you're supposed to know this stuff. And then realizing like, actually people don't know this stuff at all.

Chad Fred Lott [00:11:30] Yeah. And a lot of it's behavior too, you know, it, it's like, okay, am I going to put away 15% of my income into this 401k right now? Or is it like, you know, 2020 Harley Street glad time, you know, you know, it's like, I want that bike so bad. But, you know, I, I had these, these these goals that I'm like committed to. And then, you know, it, like, one of the things I like about his show is there's like an aa quality of it. Is it like, you hear the stories of people who have fucked it up way worse than you ever would and yet came out of it. And then there's people who were where you were a few months ago. I mean, I, I know you do juujitsu, it's kind of like being like a semi experienced white belt and when somebody new comes in, it's like you get to feel that that, you know, there's like different, you, you recognize where you were and you see where you've gone and you're like, see where, thank God I wasn't at, I, it, it's just amazing to me. And it's actually, even as a copywriter, it's made me look really closely at the way people of faith communicate their messages generally. And like, what's, what's sticky about those messages. And you know, and I, I think for brands it's an interesting space to look at. Like the whole evangelical entrepreneurial scene is interesting to me. 'cause it like, often it's like the wire they buy for a nickel self for a dime and it's like real simple businesses and they're probably mostly fine compared to the bullshit tech shit around here, man.

Vance Crowe [00:12:56] Do you get the sense that tech is about to get walloped?

Chad Fred Lott [00:13:01] Well, I mean, I feel like, you know, their pockets are so deep. I don't think it's gonna happen in the next year or two or anything like that. But I think the type of things that people invest in, I know it's hard to say, man, there's so much hubris, you know, like, people are like, well this shit worked for like 20 years, so why is it gonna, it not gonna keep working in the future? You know? I, I think any, any company that was like in need of a fast round right now is probably gonna be in trouble. But I, I imagine it'll be just like bankers, we'll just keep doing the same thing. Like terrible 2008, you get kind of bailed out, you don't learn your lesson, you keep going, you keep doing the same thing.

Vance Crowe [00:13:41] Well, it's kind of interesting with the way that bailouts have gone, I mean, on some level the people that still believe in gravity are the ones that look foolish at this point because it's like, you could print all this money, you could give it away. Now we've done 2 trillion, the stock market's still doing well, like people still have their jobs. And so it starts to be like, maybe we can do anything we want and nothing bad can ever happen.

Chad Fred Lott [00:14:07] Well, it's just like, look at the s and p 500. It's not nearly as low as I think it should be. And I'm not an economic, an economics guy, but I do know in 2008 some people did some shady paperwork and now people are dying in hospitals. Like, what, you know what, why isn't it reflecting the seriousness of the situation? I don't know.

Vance Crowe [00:14:30] So there was a rumor going around for a while that was people are looking to move out of San Francisco so much that it costs $200 to take a a U-Haul from Las Vegas to, to San Francisco, but it costs 2000 to get one from San Francisco to Las Vegas. I don't know if that's true. Is that your impression?

Chad Fred Lott [00:14:53] I mean, I don't know about those numbers, but I can't imagine it's not true because first of all, like there's no place to have a U-Haul place here. So there's probably not that many trucks here. So it's like supply and demand and you know, you would have to be like crazy to move here now. Like when I moved to San Francisco, I was basically homeless. I was driving across country in Vespa with a bunch of my buddies that worked, I worked with at this, at this C cafe. And when I came to San Francisco, I had a backpack, like a jean jacket and a a 30-year-old scooter, you know, and I just fell in with people and, and made a go of it. I don't think you could do that now. Like now, if you're a young person moving here, you probably have a skillset where you're like, okay, my first job outta college, I'm gonna make like 85 grand a year. You know, like with no experience, which is crazy to me. And then you're just gonna set it all on fire and rent. And the idea is that like within a few years you'll be up to like 160 and be able to work from home and then you can move someplace like that seems to be what people are into. But I don't know, man, it, it's such a weird dystopic feeling city. Like, it, it, it feels it. I always would say, Ima it reminds me of what I imagine like colonial in India was like, there's like all these like, you know, colonialists and then a sub layer of people who serve them and are disgruntled like that. That's just what it feels like here.

Vance Crowe [00:16:15] And it was feeling like that before Coronavirus.

Chad Fred Lott [00:16:18] Oh yeah, yeah. And then I kind of like lived on both sides of it. You know, I was a bartender up until, I don't know, like 10 years ago. You know, I, I, I, I just, I think I, I still had been a bartender longer than I've been involved in marketing or was or whatever. And you know, I, I lived through, I was here during the first.com, I remember I'd be bartending and 40 people would come into the bar and I'd be like, whoa, what's going on? It's like a total windfall for my quiet ass happy hour, you know? And people would say, well, we all just got laid off. We all just found out we got laid off. And I was like, oh, this is terrifying. And then after a few months, there was none of those parties anymore. But I remember all those dudes would come downstairs and there's always dudes, they'd be like, well, maybe I'll just bartend. Like, you don't know how to do this. Like, you have no idea what this entails. Like, you, you're not gonna be able to do it. And there's not that many spots for it. So it's weird to see like, have lived through like, seeing tech collapse and now seeing like service industry collapse. I mean, it's just, I don't know. It it, it's weird to be here.

Vance Crowe [00:17:25] Yeah. I mean, and it's, it's one thing to be like, well these are the brush fires that happen and then a new forest can grow. But you're like, if you've ever been in inside of a forest fire after it's happened, everything's black. And yes, there's green shoots that are coming out, but it is bad.

Chad Fred Lott [00:17:42] Well, yeah, it's like, it's funny you hear like a lot of the people who are a little bit more cavalier about reopening the economy, and I'm definitely probably a little more cavalier than say like, Gavin Newsome might be, you know, like I, I, I'm kind of more like, let's open it up kind of. But like people are like, just burn it down. It's like they all think they're gonna be the person in the Avengers movie that like just dusts off their shoulder and like rebuilds. But like, you could more than likely be the dude that gets crushed under whatever the Hulk knocked down. You know? It, it's like, and and then like, you don't care about your friends, you don't care about marginal people. I mean, it, it's, yeah. And then nobody knows. Nobody has any idea or like, really along, you know, every day I read some news story that makes the previous news cycle stories look ridiculous in some way.

Vance Crowe [00:18:30] Yeah. On some level. Like, it appears to me that what's going on at the White House and Donald Trump and Nancy Pelosi, it seems like one giant WWF wrestling match. And so on one level it feels like a complete waste of time for me to pay attention to it at all. But then on the other hand, you're like, well those are the people that ushered in the, the, the ability for my county government to lock me in my house for an indefinite amount of time.

Chad Fred Lott [00:19:01] I mean, that's a thing. I mean, it it, like, our politics is basically roast battle. Like that's pretty much what it is. It's like, so who got the sickest burn today?

Vance Crowe [00:19:09] And

Chad Fred Lott [00:19:09] Then,

Vance Crowe [00:19:10] You

Chad Fred Lott [00:19:11] Know, like normal people are just like, in that way, you're like, kind of like the audience, which is weird to this whole thing, but it affects you for real. You know, like they, like, they just shut down the whole economy. I mean, and to think about like how passive everybody's been, like there has been no major civil unrest. I thought for sure it would've been shotgun time here in Oakland by now. Like, like of my whole lifetime reading like about apocalyptic scenarios and reading doomsday books and being sort of like prepper adjacent. Like I, I thought it was gonna be on, but you know, crickets outside, you know, or a shopping cart

Vance Crowe [00:19:52] In my sense that, that the right would've, in this scenario, the right would've been the people that would've pulled out their shotguns to say, we're not gonna go do house arrest. But because Trump was at the helm and because they were saying, you know, you don't have to do this, but you really should and this looks bad that people walked in there. Do you get the sense that unrest is building now or you think now we're gonna probably get through it without it?

Chad Fred Lott [00:20:20] No, man. And it kind of reminds me a little bit of like the really hardcore, like anarcho left is critique of UBI like universal basic income is that if things are soft enough, people get a check and like weed is available enough. Like people will just be passive. And it feels like that might be true that, you know, the the key to just a peaceful pacified population is just like, here's some money, we're gonna keep the basic shit running. You can, you can have Netflix, like you can go buy edibles, you can do whatever, you know. And I mean, I mean, could you imagine in the nineties with no internet how this would've gone?

Vance Crowe [00:20:59] Well, I think the cannabis one is a big one too. I don't think the government wants to stop marijuana from going around the country. I think they've kept open specifically cannabis dispensaries. And that is a surefire way to make people be like, eh, you know, I guess this isn't so bad. I'll just, you know, hang out, go for a couple walks, smoke some weed, and

Chad Fred Lott [00:21:19] Yeah. Until tomorrow. You know, it's always, you know, that it's always been legal in North Korea.

Vance Crowe [00:21:26] Weed has

Chad Fred Lott [00:21:26] Been, yeah, it's always been legal there.

Vance Crowe [00:21:29] I didn't know that. No.

Chad Fred Lott [00:21:31] Yeah, yeah. They're just like, it's just a thing that they've just always allowed.

Vance Crowe [00:21:36] I think that's the scariest thing that anybody's brought up on the podcast so far.

Chad Fred Lott [00:21:41] But I could just roll out all kinds of terrifying facts. But like, that's just one that it feels relevant to now, you know?

Vance Crowe [00:21:47] Yeah. Because I mean, it feels like that's a good way to make people in a bad situation more passive to, to put off like what they know they should be doing to today, for tomorrow.

Chad Fred Lott [00:21:58] I mean, look at Soma and Brave New World that, that as an example, like, you know, it's part of it was part, it's like the lubrication that keeps the machine running.

Vance Crowe [00:22:09] So what is the, you know, we had just talked about books and things we had mentioned like books that really grabbed your attention. The one that grabbed mine recently that I have read before, but I'm reading now, I do this book club, we're gonna do it on Sunday, actually this week. But we're reading The Naked Sun by Isaac Asimov, which,

Chad Fred Lott [00:22:28] Oh, I've never read any Asimov. I feel like such a bad sci-fi show.

Vance Crowe [00:22:31] Oh, and this would be the perfect one 'cause it's super short and it's talks about, there are, it's, it's in the distant, distant future where, I don't know, most of the solar system and, and the universe has been colonized and there are spacers that are more advanced than humans. And these are the people that left Earth and they moved out to the outer planets. And they have been so successfully living in, they're so few of them that they live for like 300 years and they have really good genetics, but they never see one another in person. They only talk via video chat. And they're terrified of being in contact with other people because they think that they're diseased in particular, that the humans are diseased and the human that they have come up to this space, people's world, he lives on earth where everything is enclosed. So he is not used to outside spaces. And so you're talking about these phobias that I read this book being like, I cannot imagine people being so worried about germs that they wouldn't want you in their house. And I'm looking at my world being like, there's not very many people I would let in my house right now. And so yeah, we have, you know, this book from 30, 40 years ago was dead right? About how people treat

Chad Fred Lott [00:23:43] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:23:43] Disease.

Chad Fred Lott [00:23:45] We had to have an, an electrician come in, 'cause one of our sockets caught on fire during this whole thing. And then my wife was like, well, what's he gonna do? I'm like, well, he's gonna come in and fix it and then we're gonna Windex any, or wipe down anything he touched, you know, like, what else do you wanna do? Like that, the whole idea. And then there's people in my building, like none of us, as far as I know, have coronavirus, you know, and we're like, the, the distance that we stand away from each other in our little courtyard when we're talking is just, it's just odd feeling. It's like, if you're safe and I, I mean this is like, you know, early dating logic, you know, if you're safe and I'm safe, like it's

Vance Crowe [00:24:20] How,

Chad Fred Lott [00:24:21] It's how you end up with herpes, I guess. But yeah, it, it, it's, it's interesting to see people, like when I walk past people, there's no comradery, you know, like, 'cause you often somebody's wearing a mask, which is weird, you know, you're cut off from most of it. It makes me feel like, what I imagine like people who are autistic go through the world of feeling like there's like no emotions that you can read and you're like distant and it feels weird all the time. And

Vance Crowe [00:24:53] Yeah, I think that the, the, I have not had that much contact with people wearing masks. 'cause I have almost no contact with people. But in my neighborhood, people that I know, it is very unusual to engage in a conversation knowing we are going to stay separate. We're not going to shake hands, we're going to be suspicious if you come, if you take another step closer to me, I am going to take a step back. And that is a weird way to look at not just your fellow Americans, but the people that live in your neighborhood you can't even stand close to. It's weird.

Chad Fred Lott [00:25:27] Yeah. I mean, talk it, it's, it's, it's just so bizarre. And you, like, you have to wonder like if somebody in your building had coronavirus, like are they gonna be like shunned for like two weeks or whatever? Like how do you deal with that? Or like, do you tell people in your building? I, I don't know.

Vance Crowe [00:25:44] Yeah. I mean, and, and I wonder what's going to go on with a culture that was call out culture and woke culture, what that's going to look like in the age of coronavirus where you can throw around that you breaking the rules, leaves blood on your hands. And I, I wonder, you know, does woke culture go away because we're focused on more things? Or does this hugely amplify coronavirus shaming?

Chad Fred Lott [00:26:10] I mean, I think it just gets more specific, you know, it felt like a couple months ago it was just the wild west for getting canceled. Like you just never knew, like, what could it be? And then now it's like, oh, you know, you could be an anti-science person or, or something like that. You know? Or like all these people who, I, like some somebody shared an article in this Slack channel that I was on about, basically said, Hey, we shouldn't just immediately jump on scientists that have different opinions about this shit right now. Like, you just like light them on fire. And then people in the comment section under the, the article being shared, we like, actually there's, this is not the time for acceptance. It's like, what are you talking about? Like, is acceptance just not a thing? Like this is how science happens, man. Like people come up with different ideas and run it back and forth and, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm, I might be timid to share my findings if I thought that some mob was gonna light me on fire and ruin my career. You know?

Vance Crowe [00:27:05] And, and like I think that's definitely going on. And then you have like the weird YouTube Twitter world where in some regards you're like, Hey guys, we don't really want a whole bunch of crazy conspiracy theories going around that can run rampant and prompt people to do insane things. But on the other hand, if two doctors put out some ideas that doesn't jive with the rest of the medical community, can't we let the public decide whether or not they wanna listen to these people? Why, why do we have some videos that are being taken down and removed as not, not deemed safe? It seems to me like we're looking for trouble there.

Chad Fred Lott [00:27:43] Yeah. I'm so glad you brought up that video. It's like, for people, I guess who are watching it, that Dr. Erickson video from those two doctors in Bakersfield, California, which is not too far from where I'm at really. I, I guess it is, but I mean, it's in California. But you know, they had this press conference where they just presented what they're seeing, you know, and then made a case for how lockdown should be handled in the future. And, and it's like, you know, as like a student of rhetoric, it's a really interesting thing to look at it. And it's totality, you know, people tend to call those types of press conferences. They, they tend to be kind of quacky, you know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of quackery, it's like almost like self-publishing your own book or something like that. But I watched it and the information that they presented seemed really credible to me because like their two doctors who are in the middle of it, you know, and I'm not thinking about the fact that they own urgent care centers and they want them to be open or whatever, or, you know, they're definitely like dropping little hints. Like at least one of them has like a gadson flag t-shirt somewhere in their closet. You know what I mean? Like, like it just has that feel. But, you know, and then in between the time I saw it and today YouTube took it off, so it's gone. Right? So immediately my first thought was like, holy fuck, you know, why did this get pulled off? It seemed really reasonable to me. Why can't you just tell me what's wrong with it instead of just pulling it away? And then I went and found an article, which, because I'm not an epidemiologist or a statistician that I could barely understand. And I sent it to my friend who's a, a, a nurse.

Chad Fred Lott [00:29:17] And he was like, yeah, this rebuttal makes some pretty good points about like, the way they, they, they looked at it, but like with, you don't have the video up there, you can't have any debate. Like it was pulled down before that debate broke out in the comments section, which is usually a, a dumpster fire. But still, you know, like if, if I was less curious and more conspiratorially minded, I would've just gone with Yep. Proof. They didn't want you to hear it.

Vance Crowe [00:29:42] Well, and I think I know that that is happening. Like I know

Chad Fred Lott [00:29:45] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:29:45] That whatever, whatever doubt people had in the back of their minds, the, if they're not living, like when you live out in the Midwest, you're kind of suspicious of, of California. You're kinda look at the tech companies and say, why is it that they think they know better than me or better than the people in my area? And so, yeah, if you go through and find a video that for the first time in a month people have felt like, hey, I maybe don't understand the numbers, but these people talked to me as though I was an intelligent person, as though I could follow their point. They moved quickly. They, they, you know, they didn't pander. To me that made a lot of sense. I like that. And somebody told me why I shouldn't like it. And in, and instead of having like a really clear, articulate person, what I saw was a whole bunch of people jump in and say, well, this is wrong and bad and stupid. And you know, by the time it went from, I saw it at about 800,000 views and then it got up to 5 million. What is the point of taking it down at that point? At that point, taking it down turns it into a sacred object. That guy's gonna be more famous than the Tiger King.

Chad Fred Lott [00:30:49] Yeah. I predict that within two weeks he will be on the Joe Rogan show. Like I'm sure you know, or you know, Dave Rubin I saw was trying to get him on his show. Like, that guy's kind of a kook, but he's got a big platform, you know. And then, you know, like to your point about people have seen other things like, like, you know, we've all been going through the CNN news cycles where we're seeing, we see a thing and then the reporting on it is drastically different than what we just saw with our own eyes. I mean, like the, the Joe Biden thing, I don't know if he's having mental decline, but I can know that I can go find a whole bunch of videos that don't look great. And it's like, your job, it's your job to tell me why I'm wrong there. You know, like, I like, I'm, you know, you're not supposed to believe your lying eyes. I mean, what what's going on here? Like, I, it's, it's just super weird. And then you deal with something that's inherently technical, like a global pandemic. Like you sort of have to rely on this scientific priest class, but when they're lying to you in other places, you can't ever really trust them or, or at least, or if you feel like they're lying to you or, and then like the word, my approach to, it's like, I have no fucking idea. Like I'm just a regular ass dude, you know, how am I supposed to figure this stuff out? And I have more time than most people. I don't have kids.

Vance Crowe [00:32:06] Yeah. I mean like my and my situation, this is exactly why I started this podcast. 'cause I was like, I happen to know a lot of people with a whole bunch of different perspectives. I'm gonna call them up and find out. And it has made me a way more humble person because I hear an idea from somebody that I respect, somebody I like, they've explained it to me. I'm like, all right, I'm going to follow that way of thinking. And then a few hours later I talk to somebody else that thinks something totally different and I'm like, man, that also sounds reasonable. And I have the option of making no decision. I'll just stay in my house for a while longer. I can do that. I can do a lot of my work from home. And it's not ideal. It's not my favorite, but like, not that big of a deal. I I am actually doing pretty well. And so then you have to start asking yourself, like, if I were facing the fact that I had to go out and I needed to find something to give me courage is, is taking away that courage. I don't know, man. I, I feel so I'm angry about the fact that YouTube took that down because even if those guys were wrong and I liked it, what they had to say, it made me feel good. But even if those guys were wrong, where, why does Google want to step in and start saying we are gonna be the arbiters of truth and not truth?

Chad Fred Lott [00:33:23] Yeah, it's weird. Especially when you don't really have native expertise in the area. You know, like Google, like I'm sure there's very smart people there, but you know, they're just relying on a cabal of scientists just like we are to, to parse this out, you know? And it, it's, you know, like I'm not a person who's like, you know, ignore experts or anything like that. But I, I definitely don't think that the people who consult experts always have your best interests at heart. You know, or the people who do the interpretation. It's just like the Bible. Like some people will tell you, you know, this is cool. Other people will say, this isn't cool. And if you're not an expert or you haven't read it yourself, like you don't, you're at the mercy of these other people, you know. And then when you're like, I can imagine if you're like a flyover state type dude and you know, the person on television has been shitting all over your lifestyle in every other possible way, and then he tells you to shut up, retard, stay home. But you know, like you're, you're not gonna respond to that.

Vance Crowe [00:34:22] Yeah. And I think like the, anytime you have a crisis like this, you're gonna have the Overton window opens up the ideas that are acceptable in a given society. And definitely the countryside was wary of the people in the city thinking that they could rule over them. But the other day people started talking again about taking away the electoral college and making it so it's just a popular vote. And I can tell you that the people that are going to work right now that are going in and planting crops and getting their fields ready, they hear you talking about like, we're gonna get rid of any kind of control you have over your life is a bad, this is bad time to bring that up. Well, maybe it's a good time if that's what you wanna do is be provocative, but this is gonna cause real sparks.

Chad Fred Lott [00:35:10] Yeah. I mean, I, it, it's so weird too. I, I'm glad you mentioned farmers 'cause it's like those are people who have their hands deep in it. You know, like, they, like I, I like a person who has like a practical perspective like that. 'cause it's like, Hey man, I feed this thing, it grows, I sell it. You know that that's, that's how the world is. And, and like, as soon as you start adding like weird, you know, people, like people don't understand the Smithfield food chain. Like what? Why that's a problem. Like, people don't get it. 'cause they think that, you know, bacon just shows up in their grocery store. Like they have no context for it. Like, like that's, that's a huge deal. Like the fact that we're still hearing about, you know, Trump told somebody to snort some bleach when like there's a, like a, that crisis on the horizon that should be the top story every day is like what to do about the food system right now.

Vance Crowe [00:36:00] Yeah. And like, that's, that's a crazy thing because farmers have been trying to say for a couple of weeks, Hey, if we do not solve this packing problem, I'm going to have to kill tens of thousands of pigs. This is like, dig a hole in your field and back the truck up to it and, and kill the pigs coming off of the truck like in the tens of thousands. And we run into a real problem because the market needs those to be cleaned out. You can't save them. That's not, that's not an option. Well it, it is an option, but it, it comes at huge cost. You have to keep feeding them. They're not prepared to walk in those conditions. They're not, you know, raised that way. But like, we are gonna have to face some really serious challenges because we need to clear out the added amount, the efficiency outta that system. There are animals that are gonna have to get cold and it's not gonna be pretty

Chad Fred Lott [00:36:56] Yeah. Part of me just wants them to just release them into the streets of New York.

Vance Crowe [00:37:02] I bet they do it. I just don't think the New Yorkers would like very much.

Chad Fred Lott [00:37:07] Yeah, it's tough. Like, I don't know what to make of that. Like, we, I think you had mentioned earlier, the executive order to reopen Smithfield. It's Smithfield, right? Yeah. Am I getting that right?

Vance Crowe [00:37:16] Yeah. Well and they're among others. Yep.

Chad Fred Lott [00:37:18] Yeah. I mean they're, they're, they're always the headline probably. 'cause the Peter always makes 'em a headline. But, but yeah, like it's like, okay, you guys have to reopen. It's just, it's weird. Like is there an executive order to like open everything? Is that like a, or is it more like

Vance Crowe [00:37:35] A work hours thing? Yeah, my sense is that they were using that executive order to say, and, and this could be totally wrong. I, I spoke with a couple of my friends that are pretty familiar with the packing industry, but they said the big issue right now is those companies are afraid of liability. So somebody comes into work, they get coronavirus and then they die. Is the company gonna be responsible for that? And so the companies have said, if we are, we need to shut down. We, we can't take this risk. But if the government comes in and says, no, you're not liable, well now you've got another issue. Because now you've just said these people are essential, but we are not responsible for them. And like you and I have talked before about how this population, this is really, really difficult work. They're oftentimes living with their families in these tight confined conditions. It doesn't matter how good of a job the processing company does to try and keep them from being, you know, socially distanced. They're living in situations where they're likely gonna pass it. I, I don't know how how you get outta this, but I think the force of opening those things up is really, really uncomfortable.

Chad Fred Lott [00:38:41] I mean, well what about this? Like, you just have a population, right? And you, you know, say you have a a a, a processing facility, you test everybody and now you lock them out down. I mean, it is basically foxcon at that point. You know what I mean? Like, you could lock them down and say like, okay, nobody can come in and out. You have like a closed herd system almost for people. I mean like, is that what people want? I mean, a lot of people never,

Vance Crowe [00:39:04] Certainly doesn't seem sustainable for a US system, right? Like we don't live in that world.

Chad Fred Lott [00:39:11] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:39:12] Or at least we didn't. But I also never imagined that I would get the kind of hate that I got when I suggested people should be able to go to church. Not that I was going to go to church, but that I didn't wanna stop other people from going to church. I think that's the thing I've said that has gotten me hated the most and I've been hated before.

Chad Fred Lott [00:39:31] Yeah. I imagine as a public facing figure of monsta, you probably did consume taking some

Vance Crowe [00:39:37] Heat on the

Chad Fred Lott [00:39:38] Internet. But the church thing's weird too, man. 'cause like I don't have, okay, I, I live out here. This is liberal mor door basically. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know anybody that goes to church. I don't know, like anybody who's even actually I do know one person that goes to church and she just got married, but like, I don't really know anybody, you know, back home like in New Orleans, like Catholics don't take it too seriously, you know? But like there's a lot of parts of the world there. Like that is people's lives. Like that is an essential thing to them. Just in the way that like, you're right to have drag queen story hour at the library is, you know, it's probably even more serious. 'cause there's like, you know, you know, you feel like you're gonna go to hell if you don't do it. I mean like how do you tell somebody whose belief system is so wrapped up into that, that they can't do a thing and the government's gonna tell you you can't do a thing. I mean, that seems like how we got pilgrims over here in the first place. You know, like the government telling you what you can't do regarding your religion.

Vance Crowe [00:40:34] Yeah. And I mean like in, in many of them they felt like, is this an actual religious test? Am I being tested because I know I could go to jail, I could get sick. I don't want to go spread the disease out among other people, but if this is a test, I don't wanna have to say I failed it.

Chad Fred Lott [00:40:52] Yeah. But, and you know, so that's one. But the other side of me thinks is like, like when you think about how, how the Jews handled religious ceremonies during the Holocaust in death camps, you make amends, you know what I mean? Like maybe like yeah, you're not gonna make your, your big, you know, easter's basically the Super Bowl for a lot of these mega churches, right? Like it's like their biggest money making their biggest cash gravity or

Vance Crowe [00:41:18] That's a pretty cynical way to look at it. But okay, I'll take

Chad Fred Lott [00:41:21] Your point. I

Vance Crowe [00:41:21] Mean, I'll take your point.

Chad Fred Lott [00:41:22] I mean, it's just a fact. I'm not saying that they have like ulterior, I'm just saying that like, if you're running a church and you do all your good works with a lot of the money that comes in on that weekend, you're kind of incentivized to want to keep that window that that weekend open. You know? But why can't they become QVC salesmen like every artist friend of mine now, you know, why can't you have it online? Why can't you just pivot like a tech company does? I'd be like, a lot of these big organizations have like decent av you know, we're on a phone right now having a podcast. Like why can't I be preaching it? It, so it seems like the leadership's a little selfish. I mean, look at the, the gathering of the juggalos. Like it got shut down by the insane clown posse. You know, they were like, Hey look, we have a, a pretty big population of people who love us and we're kind of in charge of this. Like flock sort of, they made the decision to put it on pause and they took a lot of their acts online and they're, they're basically tending their flock remotely. Like if the Juggalos can do it, I feel like the evangelicals could,

Vance Crowe [00:42:21] I I agree that people could, and that all of the, you know, ministers probably should, right? If you're trying to be responsible for this. But the question is like, is there a way that the majority can take away that right from the minority that that can make it so you can, you know, use force in order to, and and I'm told by a whole bunch of people that like, yes, it is in our rights and yes, we're allowed to tell those people those things. I'm just saying this does not come without a cost. The people that lost their opportunity to go to church when they wanted to go, when they felt like it was their duty to go, they're not going to forget this taste in their mouth. And it's not gonna be like, yeah, but we're past that, that was from three months ago when we did that. They're gonna be like, this happened to us, this right. Was trampled and it's gonna turn into something eventually.

Chad Fred Lott [00:43:09] I totally agree. I mean, and imagine if like, the people who are the most like gung-ho in the whole, it's not that bad. It's not the flu or Right. You know, I, I'm not saying they are, it doesn't look like they are, but imagine that this is, this is African killer bees or Y 2K or what, I mean people are actually dying. So that's not a great comparison, but imagine it's the scale of it in retrospect didn't, wouldn't have warranted it. Especially in an area like, you know, like Idaho where people, there aren't really that many cases, you know, like you shut down Easter when there's nobody sick around. Like, that doesn't make any sense. Like, you know, the, the whole one size fits all solution thing is, it does get a little weird at scale, you know?

Vance Crowe [00:43:51] Yeah. And I think it'll be interesting to see how all this plays out. I mean, if there's one thing that we should all be deeply grateful for is that Sweden was, is a national or is an international treasure for us now because they took a chance and we're gonna get to learn a whole lot about what happens if you, if you didn't do anything at all.

Chad Fred Lott [00:44:11] Yeah, it's wild man. I, I can't even imagine the type of pressure and balls those people must have to like, just like go totally against the grain with a huge population of people. 'cause like shutting it down makes a kind of sense. You know, like if you don't know how bad it is, even those doctors in that video, they said like, look, we would've done exactly the same thing, but you have to reassess, which I completely agree with, but like, man, like I, I, I wish I could see some of those meetings, you know, like 20 years from now I'm sure we'll get an HBO series about it. But, you know, for now it's just like, I wonder like what those discussions were like, like do they have different scientists or,

Vance Crowe [00:44:51] I, I mean, I think probably my, my, this is my wild guess and it's not entirely mine. Somebody told me, but I wouldn't, I I don't think they'd want me to say it. They basically said we had spy services, so do things like people like the Israelis and they saw what was happening and how strongly China was reacting. And so Israel, which never shuts down their beaches, you know, they, they live through all sorts of terror, shut everything down. And it's likely that they went and took their intel and showed it to Trump, who, you know, went from being like, this is not a big deal to bang, this is a big deal. And my my guess was if you have a hyper military, you have good intelligence services, you are really high in the, in the world of like security. Yeah. It's probably something you were really tuned into. And if you were Sweden, I don't get the sense that their military is, you know, a superpower that's, you know, constantly going around surveilling people. They probably had less pressure. That's all conjecture though.

Chad Fred Lott [00:45:51] Yeah. Who knows, man, you know, to me though, it, it's interesting to see how different people are navigating it in their personal lives. Like how do you, okay, you know, if you're just adrift like myself and this like sea of nihilism, like what do you do? You know, who knows? You know, get a kettlebell, I guess

Vance Crowe [00:46:11] Do you think people are becoming religious there now or having some sort of organizing philosophy?

Chad Fred Lott [00:46:18] I seriously doubt it. I mean, I, I think that, like, I I just finished reading that book, A Year of Living biblically by AJ Jacobs. And it's the one where he like tries to live the Bible like literally for a whole year in New York. And he, I i, I don't think that he would've had the results and the positivity that he experienced from it. He didn't net out as a religious person, but he netted out as a more grateful person, a person with more like active gratitude practices. I feel like without a cultural connection, it, it's really tough. You know, like, I'm not looking at my yoga teacher for leadership in this moment. You know, she might have like a cool video posted with a quote from somebody else who was a leader for their moment. But, you know, like who's, who's like, who's laying down like the righteous statements to guide us like Elon Musk. I mean, I don't know. You know, who, who do you look for? Like what system do you, do you tap into? Like, I I don't have an answer.

Vance Crowe [00:47:25] Yeah. I mean I just, before this crisis broke out, I was reading the, the Unconscious Mind or the Undiscovered Self by Carl Young. And I was struck by how much he talks about, about how if you don't have an organizing principle, like believing in God that you will replace that with something else. And he was saying all the way in the 1930s that he believed that people that didn't believe in God would, would substitute the state and they would start saying, the state is the one that is our savior. They're the ones that'll care for us. They're the ones we should trust and move down the path towards. I think what we consider socialism or communism. I see that now probably clearer now that Coronavirus has gone on than, than I have before. Because really people did turn to the state and say, I don't know how to decide if I should go out or not. You tell me if I'm allowed to go out. They wanted the stay at home order because that made their lives simpler.

Chad Fred Lott [00:48:25] Yeah. I mean I definitely know people who are like, you know, they're happy living on debt. They have low, low income, they're stoked to not be at work right now. They're just waiting for that UBI check. You know, I, I went really deep into reading about universal basic income. 'cause I, I, I saw Andrew Yang speak here in San Francisco and I was just really impressed with the way he comported himself and the fact that he's very funny and his crowd work is excellent. Like from a like comedian standpoint, he's just really good on stage. And I liked that he felt a little bit like a science fiction president, like the things that he was talking about. And he wasn't president, but a candidate. You know, he's talking about automation and what's gonna happen because of that. And you know, what's the proper way to use Silicon Valley to not like tamp it down and allow China to surpass it, but to like let it be free. But also like collect, like basically milk it, it was, it was all really interesting stuff. And you know, there's this movement called fully automated gay space luxury communism, which is kind of the more extreme version of Andrew Yang's, UBI. And I think we're gonna end up with something like that where the state is basically like harnessing the power of its most productive, useful members of society. Like you say an Andrew or like an Elon Musk type, we'll just use him as an example. They'll say like, go ahead, go run your companies the way you want to go. Fucking nuts. You, you are gonna pay a tax. And then that tax is gonna trickle out into some sort of UBI. I mean, it, it's already like, like more mainstream politicians are talking about it now than they did three months ago.

Chad Fred Lott [00:49:57] I mean, it's really, it's really interesting.

Vance Crowe [00:50:00] Yeah. And to me, when somebody brings up UBII, I would interchange that word synonymously with, with communism is, is, is my reading of this incorrect? Is there some nuance there that is, that is UBI that, that is different than communism.

Chad Fred Lott [00:50:21] I mean, it feels like to me like it's communism, you know, it feels like a by the books, and I don't mean that like in a negative way. Like you should be scared of it or you go fully red down on its ass, but you know, you are taking things from one thing and moving it over to another. Like where, where it gets weird to me though, is when you start talking about like tech and data collection being the driver of the economy and then it feels like a little bit more like whatever Alaska has going on. Like, if you're gonna be sucking up all this data from all of us and it has value, shouldn't I get a cut of that value since I'm producing a little bit of that data? But like, you know, I, I don't know what that amount would be. That's

Vance Crowe [00:51:02] Really interesting. Thinking of it as the oil reserves. If, if data is as valuable as oil as everybody says it is, and may it probably is now. 'cause oil's so cheap.

Chad Fred Lott [00:51:12] Yeah. And data's like a commons, you know, like the whole internet is like a commons and, and you could read Google and Facebook's complete overtake of it is something like a, something in the neighborhood of a tragedy of the commons, like overfishing or, or something like that. Or, you know, they, or another way to look at it is that they represent like when people want to like, sell every patch of ocean so that nobody pollutes everywhere, like somebody's responsible for it. Like they're responsible for the whole ecosystem. So it's really not, it's like not Mad Max online, but, you know, the UBI thing is, is I think our most likely future because it, it, it sort of harnesses like exceptionalism and the desire to be taken care of together.

Vance Crowe [00:52:00] I don't know how you keep meat packing plants running. If you have UBII don't know how you get lettuce picked if you have UBI unless it's you collect UBI and then if you wanna work on top of that, you're welcome to, to make more money. Because at the end of the day, like people don't want to go do that work. Americans don't want to do that work. We hire people, we set up all sorts of elaborate immigration schemes in order to make it so Americans don't have to do that work.

Chad Fred Lott [00:52:30] Yeah, dude, selling meat that's packaged at a farmer's market is hard. I can't even imagine like the brutality. I mean, I can, 'cause I've been to farms, but like the, everything that happens before that is super tough. And then, you know, like I, I had a lot of friends that were like very enamored with the whole Michael Pollen Joel s lifestyle. Like, I, well like I'm gonna give up being a tech guy and I'm gonna go live this farm life and you know, like, oh, I'm gonna do backbreaking labor for $18,000 a year. Like I made more than that working at a coffee shop. You know, like you have to want to do that shit. And I think like Andrew Yang's perspective would be that eventually no one will be doing those jobs because robots will be doing those jobs. It'll have like DARPA robot cowboys running around and I mean, that seems sort of reasonable to me.

Vance Crowe [00:53:19] Well then there is no better time for you to read some Isaac Asimov books, man, because that is what that is all about. And the interesting thing, he's the guy that wrote the, the Naked Son. The interesting thing is his books read like crime noir, like that kind of 1950s, but it also has extreme logic dressed up in dialogue. So it's like this very, very interesting if you like logic games or logic puzzles and, and robots. It's, it's a good book to be reading right now. Dude, I know I have taken up your whole evening. It still looks like bright and sunny there, but this has been a blast. Thank you so much for coming on.

Chad Fred Lott [00:54:00] Yeah, thanks man. Like I, it's such a pleasure to talk to you finally. 'cause I feel like, you know, it's like, you know, like a sniper in Germany could only like really be understood by like a sniper in America or something like that. You know, it's like you're, you're in the jo in the the, you run into so few people who are in the roles of like communicating these like ag ideas and where they overlap with culture and you know, you like it. It's just a weird skillset. Like you gotta know a little bit about a lot of stuff, but ultimately, like, you drop me on a farm, I'm gonna die. I don't know how to do anything, you know, but I could talk to somebody about it. It, it's just weird. It's like, it's like, you know, we're sos of the modern day.

Vance Crowe [00:54:38] Well you have been nothing short of an inspiration to me and like how open you've always been to me living on the other side of enemy lines for a while there. But you were always like, you noticed things. I did. You cared about it, you wanted to talk about it. It meant a lot to me. I think you were the quintessential person that taught me how to reach out to other people online.

Chad Fred Lott [00:54:58] Thanks, man. And like, you know, I, we didn't talk about it earlier 'cause nobody listening to this probably wants to listen to my show. But like, I have a horror movie podcast that I do called Scary Thoughts and Horror Movies Aside, like, what the show is really about is me and this other dude who are very different being friends and talking about a thing that we love. Like he is a hardcore, like literally a satanic feminist Canadian. And I am a, like, I'm a southerner and like my favorite movie is Fort Gump. You know, like very, like very different. But you know, like we come to each other with respect and curiosity and you know, we recognize it and we're just joking around and we, we say awful shit to each other because it's fun. And I, I think that people should really go more towards that. Like, you know, instead of trying to like get you or like debate all the time, it's like, why do you have to have a debate? Like all these fucking new school like right wing dudes of all this sudden like, what about decency and debate? It's like, ugh. Like why not just hang, just hang out, stop debating, start hanging out.

Vance Crowe [00:56:01] Yeah. It's always struck me as odd that people go around looking for other people to fight with on Twitter instead of like, Hey, there are these people out there that they know things that I have no idea about. And if you ask them, they'll tell you anything you wanna know, but all you gotta do is show up and be cool.

Chad Fred Lott [00:56:18] Yeah, ask a question. It's the whole like classic, you know, I'm reading this book of Bruce Lee's aphorisms right now called Striking Thoughts. Hilarious. And he constantly refers to the empty cup thing. Like, just show up with an empty cup man. Like if you show up with a full cup, you're just gonna spill your bullshit everywhere.

Vance Crowe [00:56:35] That's a great point, man. And if people wanted to find you on Twitter, how would they do that?

Chad Fred Lott [00:56:41] It's just at Chad Fred Lot. I'm not super active on Twitter. Just people there. I don't know, I just, it, it just seems toxic. I like Instagram a lot more 'cause I like following illustrators so you know, I like interacting with artists and stuff online. Twitter

Vance Crowe [00:56:57] To me has been so much better since I tightly honed who I followed and, and I just slice it all outta there so if there's somebody putting poison in, I just cut it right out.

Chad Fred Lott [00:57:09] Yeah, the poison's so addictive. It's like the most fun part of it. Like I have to cut myself off like a drinker, you know.

Vance Crowe [00:57:15] That's is Instagram for me too. I just sit there and drool so I just like, I gotta get off it. Alright man. Thank you so much. We'll talk later.

Chad Fred Lott [00:57:24] Later bro.