How to Plan an Accessible Home for Aging Parents Before a Crisis Hits

Vance Crowe [00:00:00] What is it that you're looking at in a house that's allowing you to be what? That's gonna be a problem? Or you need to think about these things.

Gretchen Kingma [00:00:07] The statistic is 2035, which is essentially tomorrow there'll be more people, 65 and older than 18 and under for the first time in US history when the world was in shambles, my dad was diagnosed with stage four cancer just to add on to the whole pandemic mess. And so one morning my mom called me in 2021 and said, dad, can't do the stairs. We've gotta sell and we've gotta sell fast.

Vance Crowe [00:00:32] Hi everyone. I'm Oliver Crowe, a second grade student and an aspiring YouTuber and you're listening to the Vance Crowe podcast. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Today we have Gretchen Kingma. Gretchen is an occupational therapist that turned into a real estate agent. She is an interesting woman that you, if you're on Instagram, you'll see her doing really interesting and innovative ways to engage her audience. But what she specializes in is something that is relevant to probably every single podcast listener out here, which is, how do you help your parents or yourself get ready to live in a home that you want to go the distance in maybe age gracefully or even live out your final days? Gretchen is somebody that I met at a very interesting event where they were teaching us all about the Passover and Hanukkah and I sat at a table with her and thought that her insights about what you could change about a house so that mom and dad could live there about how you could make it so there were less opportunities for them to trip about how you could set it up so that if mom or dad had to be in a bed, you could still have their spouse be able to care for them or be able to have somebody come in and live in the home. I know that this is one of those subjects that is not as exciting as the quick news reports and all the things that are in the headlines, but Gretchen really has a great way of describing what it is that she's thinking about and what you can do to prepare your own family for the way that they can live in their own home.

Vance Crowe [00:02:09] So I'm really excited to have this interview. We're gonna get to that in just a moment. But first I wanna talk about Legacy Interviews. This has been a very wild summer. We've had so many people come in from all over the United States. We've had out from Minnesota, California, all the way up in Canada, many places I can't even think of. And the way that we do this is that we have, you get a legacy interview for a loved one and we put the time on the calendar. Oftentimes, I think putting that time on the calendar is the most important thing because it says we are going to reserve this space. We're gonna make sure that we take the time and the energy to capture mom and dad telling some of their most important stories, maybe talking about where they grew up and how their family is structured, how they made different business decisions and what they hope for for their family. By setting up this time, we overcome the chaos of life. Many people could record their own family members talking about their life stories, but when you try and do it at Christmas or you fit it in among all the other things you have going on in the world, it never seems to quite work out. So by scheduling a legacy interview, you can be sure that these stories are captured and can be passed down for generations. If you're somebody that says, look, it's just not feasible for me to get mom or dad to St. Louis, then consider using a legacy online interview where we do the same interview the same time. We could ask similar questions, but we do it online in a system that's just like this one right here and it looks beautiful.

Vance Crowe [00:03:46] We get great sound and we capture the stories of your loved ones. So if you are interested in having one of your loved ones, do an online legacy interview, go to Legacy Interviews dot com, go to shop and click on the online section. Alright, without further ado, let's head to the interview with Gretchen Kingma. Gretchen Kingma, welcome to the podcast.

Gretchen Kingma [00:04:07] Dang.

Vance Crowe [00:04:08] So an occupational therapist turn real estate agent. This makes you have a unique perspective, but maybe before we get too deep into your weird perspective of life, what is it that is more difficult about being a real estate agent than people realize?

Gretchen Kingma [00:04:24] That's a great question. I think a lot of people think that realtors merely open doors. Oh, they just let me in a house and that's it. There's a lot more than that under the surface. There's a a, a ton of hilarious memes on the internet right now of like, oh yeah, I, I decided to go into real estate to work less hours and to have more freedom, and now I like work 24 hour seven and have zero freedom. And that's how I think of real estate. It's a super invested process. A good realtor anyway is going to take it super personally and navigate their client through ups and downs, negotiations, inspections. You need to know a lot about construction in order to be a good realtor because you're negotiating what for most people is their largest asset. And so fiercely protecting people's money is not just opening doors. So there's a lot of behind the scenes that that happen.

Vance Crowe [00:05:20] You know, my sense is that if everything goes right, the real estate agent seems really superfluous. It's like, oh, we got together, we go into price, we sold it. But if things start going wrong, if you don't have somebody there, then you are now in an, in an area where there's deep law, there's already a lot of interested parties involved. And if you don't have somebody there, you're like, could be pretty lost on the woods. Yeah.

Gretchen Kingma [00:05:42] And leave a ton of money on the table. So it could be dangerous if you don't have a professional on your team. For sure.

Vance Crowe [00:05:48] How long have you been a real estate agent?

Gretchen Kingma [00:05:50] Seven years.

Vance Crowe [00:05:51] And how did you come to this world?

Gretchen Kingma [00:05:53] Yeah, so I know seven years because my daughter was born when I decided to get licensed in real estate. And it's because my background is in occupational therapy. And as an occupational therapist, I merely work in adult rehab, inpatient rehab, and senior living. And just to rewind, just so e everybody knows occupational therapists are very similar to physical therapists. We help people with cognition, strength, balance, endurance, all, all sorts of physical functions in order to live out what you want to live out at home or in the community of your choice. And so as an occupational therapist, I worked merely in the senior space and it was maddening to me no matter how independent we as the therapist got somebody during their hospital stay or their skilled nursing stay, we would see so many repeat offenders. So many people would come back to the hospital. And it dawned on me that it's because the environment never changed. Home never changed. So I was going on maternity leave, looked down to hand my caseload over to the OT who was covering my maternity leave and realized I had 101 patients and four codas, which is an occupational therapy assistant, all under my responsibility. And that's very much so pushing the ethics of the state of Missouri. And so I, I told my therapy director, I'll see you in 12 weeks after I have this firstborn child of mine. And I went home and told my husband, I'm never going back there.

Gretchen Kingma [00:07:23] And we have 12 weeks to figure out a pivot. So with a newborn, I got licensed in real estate with the idea that if ot, if occupational therapy job is to keep people happy, healthy, and thriving at home, then why are we not proactively looking at the built environment of home more proactively?

Vance Crowe [00:07:41] And is, did you know anybody else that had been like, I see occupational to real estate? I

Gretchen Kingma [00:07:46] Wish because then it would've been a lot easier. I just kinda had this mindset and I should add, my husband and I had just bought our first home and it wasn't the best experience. So we thought, wow, if this person can crush real estate and make a career out of it, I could probably do the same and have a niche that I'm passionate about. So

Vance Crowe [00:08:06] Yeah, my favorite line about starting a new job or a new business is we don't, we don't do this because it is easy. We did it because we thought it would be easy. Yeah.

Gretchen Kingma [00:08:15] So

Vance Crowe [00:08:15] You like get involved in something and you go a little ways into it and all of a sudden you're like, everything that I thought was going to be just like one step ends up having hundreds or thousands of problems. So I also had a child a few years ago, and remember how chaotic it was, how in the world did you birth a child, keep them alive, insanity and study and do all these things?

Gretchen Kingma [00:08:38] Yeah, shout out to my husband, he was super supportive. I remember telling him, I know I have six figures of debt from this medical school career that I've pursued, but trust me, I think I'm gonna go into real estate. And he was like, what? And so when I unpacked it and the reasonings of why, he's like, oh, that makes a ton of sense. So he was super supportive. I was home with the baby all day and then at night I would go to class and he would come home. He's in corporate finance, my husband is, so he'd come home from his job, keep the baby alive, feed it, and I would go to night class and just knocked it out in a three week span and got my, got my license.

Vance Crowe [00:09:17] And then when did you start really specializing in this space of, I'm gonna take what I know about people falling and people tripping and these kinds of things and turn that into the way that they buy houses?

Gretchen Kingma [00:09:30] Yeah, so it's interesting because I had a lot of imposter syndrome, which is so overused in culture today. But I thought, gosh, I, I have this advanced degree to work in the hospital to serve people that have fallen, that have had strokes, that have had spinal cord injuries and now I'm slinging houses. So while I went into that line of work, knowing that it made sense to marry the two expertise, it took me quite some time to really embrace like, this is what I'm doing and it's not crazy and this business has legs. And so while, while that was my initial reasoning, it was probably three years, four years to really get the brand off the ground.

Vance Crowe [00:10:11] Well that's funny. 'cause like I believe that when people do a really good introduction of themselves, the best introduction is a Venn diagram where you're like, I am this thing

Gretchen Kingma [00:10:19] And

Vance Crowe [00:10:19] I am this thing. And that overlap creates a story that another person can remember and see and if it's good enough, it seems like it was always obvious. It was always there. So I always describe, my wife was an aerospace engineer turned physical therapist. Mm. And then you think, well those two don't go together until you say, well it's that everything is about movement through fluid, you know, through air. Yeah.

Gretchen Kingma [00:10:41] And

Vance Crowe [00:10:41] So now she uses her understanding of how people move to be a, you know, a unique physical therapist. It makes total sense. You are the only other person I've ever seen that has such a great Venn diagram because as soon as you hear it, you're like, well of course if I'm buying a house for mom and dad or, or mom and dad are trying to figure out how can we live independently for as long as possible without going into a retirement home, you would want somebody with this expertise.

Gretchen Kingma [00:11:07] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:11:08] When you first started to embrace it, did the, did the world respond positively?

Gretchen Kingma [00:11:12] Yeah. And I think the world responded positively from the get go. I just had to get outta my own way. And it's still, when I meet somebody on the playground with my kids and they ask, what do you do? It's still a little bit of a struggle. But I've recently like zeroed in on a positioning statement that I can tell people very easily, I am an occupational therapist turned realtor, and I help seniors answer the question, where do we go next? I marry healthcare with housing and I educate and equip seniors so that they're empowered to experience joyful aging on their own terms.

Vance Crowe [00:11:44] That's good. I mean, it's a story that somebody else can repeat, which I think is,

Gretchen Kingma [00:11:48] Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:11:48] Most important part of an introduction because if somebody can understand it and then they can go tell that story to somebody else, you know, I've nailed it. So now answer the question, why, what kind of housing choices does this mean? If you wanna live in your house for a long time, you better buy a ranch. That's kind of the

Gretchen Kingma [00:12:04] Yes and no. It's interesting because I, I have wavered. When I first built the brand and really went out to do this type of education and work, I thought aging in place, aging in place, aging in place. But the social component of life is so important, especially if somebody's experiencing cognitive decline. So I went from saying like, you have to stay in the community forever and ever avoid senior living at all costs to kind of going to, it just depends on the person. And that's a true occupational therapy approach is person specific. It, there's no cookie cutter. So if somebody has mobility deficits, a ranch home is gonna be the best option. But there are homes that are two stories that have powder rooms and dining rooms on the first floor where the family has stopped using the dining room. And you can easily modify it to be a primary bedroom and you can expand your powder room to have a shower. So as long as you have flex space in a two story home that allows for renovation down the road and then have a bank account where you're saving for said renovation or a long-term care insurance policy, something that allows you to have that pivot plan, I would say it depends on the person. So a ranch, a ranch might not be for everybody and they're few and far between. They outsell two stories, three to one in today's current real estate market. So you can make a two story work or one and a half story. So it just depends on the person.

Vance Crowe [00:13:30] You said something really interesting there so people can get insurance that allows them to do in-home care.

Gretchen Kingma [00:13:37] Yeah. Long-term care insurance policy. And in my thirties I am not looking at long-term care insurance, however I should be. And because it's super affordable and the, the payouts are huge, so many, if not all nowadays long-term care insurance policies and I'm not an expert in long-term care insurance, find somebody that is. But many of those policies have an allotment that you can use for aging in place. So if you're making a bathroom renovation, and by the way your bathroom renovation doesn't have to be ugly, like it can look like the four seasons, not the rehab hospital. And your insurance policy has monies for that. So definitely knowing about your policies.

Vance Crowe [00:14:15] Yeah, my wife, when we were doing our renovation in our house, we'd lived there for, I don't know, five years and it was time to do a renovation and she's physical therapist, so she put bars up everywhere.

Gretchen Kingma [00:14:24] And

Vance Crowe [00:14:25] At first I was like, this is gonna look like we're, you know, in a retirement foot. But now it's awesome. Yeah,

Gretchen Kingma [00:14:30] Because

Vance Crowe [00:14:30] When we're giving our kids a bath and 40-year-old dad has to stand up, I just grab on the up and you're like, why doesn't everybody use the things all the exhaust?

Gretchen Kingma [00:14:40] Yes. And like I always joke when I, I, I speak a lot and educate a lot on this topic and it's not just for a 90-year-old that had a knee replacement, like I'm 34 and love a good beer league softball game. Like I'm sore if I'm getting in the shower after, you know, playing beer league softball. It's so much safer to have something to grab onto that's not your towel bar. So,

Vance Crowe [00:15:02] So gimme some like scenarios, some places where people like you know, didn't know what was possible and you figured out how to solve a problem.

Gretchen Kingma [00:15:10] Yeah, so my favorite story, and if anybody has heard me speak, they've heard me talk about it, is my parents, my own family situation. It's wild that I had this career path on my heart and in my trajectory. And then in 2020 when the world was in shambles, my dad was diagnosed with stage four cancer just to add on to the whole pandemic mess. And so one morning my mom called me in 2021 and said, dad, can't do the stairs. We've gotta sell and we've gotta sell fast. And this was a two story home that my sister and I were raised in. My parents still lived in, we were deeply embedded in the community, the neighbors, the block parties. And so it was more than just a physical, oh crap, I can't get up the stairs. But it was a whole emotional web to untangle. And so I was thrown into having to help somebody downsize out of pure necessity and not preparedness. And now I scream from the rooftops necessity, terror or preparedness trumps necessity every single time. So my mom had always wanted an in-ground pool. We found a little bungalow in Webster Groves and a normal realtor would've seen this house from the street and said, no way. 'cause it has so many steps to go up. But with a little bit of, you know, extra thinking, I realized on Google Maps that the grade of the lot sloped downward towards the house. So the, the back patio had two steps to go into double doors that entered into the primary bedroom that had an attached bathroom with a step-in shower.

Gretchen Kingma [00:16:45] So if we could find a way to tear out this dinky patio and create a beautiful living space, mom would get her in-ground pool, dad would have the accessibility he needs to get into the bedroom and we would all live happily ever after. So we got that house under contract before it even, I think we were the first showing in we, I called the agent built rapport. I said, this is the situation. We made a great offer. We got it under contract. We tore out the 10 by 10 dinky patio and put this beautiful outdoor living space that had a sloped concrete ramp. So I don't like to call it a ramp because ramp means disability in my opinion. So I like to say like a sloped walkway up to the main living space that went into the bedroom. So then my dad could just drive his F-150 because he was stubborn as a mule and drove his truck till he couldn't anymore up to the sloped entry right into the house. And he was able to stay at home and that's where he passed. He didn't have to go into a hospice house or a hospital at the end of his cancer battle, he got to, he got to literally age in place and and pass away at home. And that ramp served as the aisle for my sister's wedding because she got married in my parents' backyard so that he could be present. So truly universal design where we still enjoy today. So it was one of those things that normal realtor would've said, we can't, if you're trying to get rid of steps, this isn't the house for you. But with a little bit more forethought, planning and background, I was able to identify this could be awesome and it gets you everything you want.

Gretchen Kingma [00:18:22] And my mom still lives there today.

Vance Crowe [00:18:25] Wow.

Gretchen Kingma [00:18:26] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:18:26] And when you think about your dad being able to be stubborn with his F-150 and, and like you reflect back on that, like tell me about what it felt like to watch them be able to be in place for the rest of their

Gretchen Kingma [00:18:38] Yeah. I would say in the moment, because we were all so like, oh gosh, dad is actually dying. And we didn't wanna accept that I I in the moment I didn't have like, oh this is great. Now looking back it was like the most beautiful thing ever. And we had backyard, we had a backyard party with live music for the deck opening, like when we finished the deck after its completion. And dad had all of his best friends. We've had crawfish boils in the backyard, we've had Cardinal watch parties, was able to watch the Cardinal's dies slow death in 2022, fall of 2022 when Pujols and Molina were in their last season, sat out there. They have a TV on this wonderful deck that I speak of. But we were able to do all of those things with dad in his final days. And so just a beautiful place to enjoy end of life.

Vance Crowe [00:19:33] When people encounter you, do they know what skillset you're bringing to the table? How do people find you?

Gretchen Kingma [00:19:39] So social media is a huge place for people to find me as well as person to person referral. Last year when looking back at my business, 98% of my business was sphere of influence referral. So a lot of word of mouth.

Vance Crowe [00:19:53] So people that have been like, Hey, mom and dad didn't know if they were gonna be able to find a place and then they found you.

Gretchen Kingma [00:19:58] Yeah. I have a current client who I adore and I wish I could find who referred me, but their occupational therapist at Barnes referred them to me. And so that's an example of another professional heard about what I'm doing and they referred me, this is a family that lives in University City here in St. Louis. And a two story brick colonial husband had a stroke following brain surgery is now fully dependent and in a wheelchair and they are having to check into a hotel once a week to get him bathed because they don't have a shower on the main floor. So an OT in the hospital refers me, I am able to help them. We found a condo that's fully accessible. So I helped them purchase that, negotiate our way through that, and now I'm helping them sell their two story. And that's like a, a real time example of how somebody found me and how I'm using my expertise in the housing space

Vance Crowe [00:20:50] It seems like to me. So there's like a very, there's a set of jobs that they are going to be there no matter what. Right? So garbage collector, that's always gonna be there. As long as we have running water in the country, we're gonna have plumbers, but also funeral home directors, right? Like we are gonna die and somebody has to enter the body. It seems like you have found a spot that I wouldn't have said was an absolute necessity, but it is inevitable.

Gretchen Kingma [00:21:16] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:21:16] That people have parents that were totally functional and then they grow older and they have to choose between two paths. And if mom and dad aren't gonna go the the assisted living community or whatever that is, then if you don't find a good house for them, you are now going to also endure all the things you're talking about. The the, the falls and the, you know, not being able to bathe dad and all these things. It seems like an incredible niche.

Gretchen Kingma [00:21:45] Yeah. And it's super fulfilling. I went into OT school very naive, like I just wanna help people. And then we learned the business side of healthcare and the bureaucracy and the red tape. And so this allows me to actually help people and have a business and not be mandated by Medicare and insurance.

Vance Crowe [00:22:05] Oh yeah. I mean right now our healthcare providers seeing two people at the exact same time, only being able to give certain types of therapy because this is what's allowed within the very narrow definition. So by being creative you got to do what you're need. Yeah,

Gretchen Kingma [00:22:19] Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:22:19] Yeah. So you mentioned social media is a big thing for you. That's actually, so we met at a thing at The Gatesworth, which is a retirement community here in St. Louis. And they were doing a Hanukkah like

Gretchen Kingma [00:22:31] Yes,

Vance Crowe [00:22:32] Like discussion and kind of like showing you how the whole

Gretchen Kingma [00:22:35] Cedar

Vance Crowe [00:22:36] Meal work. And that was really fun. But then I followed you on Instagram and your stuff pops up on my Instagram feed like at the top

Gretchen Kingma [00:22:44] For go. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:22:45] I don't know what it is, but like I know. How in the world do you make the time to do that and be as creative as you are on there?

Gretchen Kingma [00:22:53] Yeah, so great question. And working with my counselor, counselor simultaneously to not be on Instagram all the time because it does take away from my family. So it's a very natural place for me to connect with people because I use social media to be social. A lot of people use it to be consumers and just scroll. But I have met some great friends, which my husband will make fun of me.

Vance Crowe [00:23:19] Oh yeah, you're in out friends. Oh yeah. I get, I get made fun of that.

Gretchen Kingma [00:23:22] It's in St. Louis who have, who have gotten coffee downstairs at coma because we met on Instagram. So I am an extrovert, I treat social media exactly as I would if I was at a cocktail party. Instead of consuming other people. I'm entering into conversation. I wanna know what people are doing. I follow your stuff. I think what you're growing currently is really fascinating and something I wish we would've known about before my dad died. 'cause I would've loved to have done a legacy interview. So I think it's coming from curiosity the same way as it is in relationship, finding out what people's pages are about, what do they stand for, and then sliding into their dms and asking, Hey, who are you, what are you about? How can I help you? Is there, do we have any way to work together? Do you wanna grab coffee and chat about it? So I just treat social media to be social and not a, a creepy consumer.

Vance Crowe [00:24:16] Yeah, there's a huge amount of energy in your, in your stuff. Like how do you like sit down and plan these things out? You would,

Gretchen Kingma [00:24:24] That would make me sound so much more sophisticated if I had a, a content calendar that I planned and had a theme. That's not the case. I am very much a go go, go type person. I think I probably have a DD it's never been, you know, diagnosed or prescribed anything, but I'm pretty sure I have a DD And it's really just, I commit to post one time a day every single day. Don't miss a day. And it has to be focused towards my niche. So I will say to your earlier question about when you embraced OT in real estate on social media. If you scroll back a year, a year and a half, it was very confusing. I was talking to my first time home buyer friends. I was talking to my downsizers, I was talking to seniors that maybe were moving into senior living. Now everything I post is towards the sandwich generation. 'cause we're not gonna find seniors on Instagram, but we're gonna find that that generation that has aging parents and they also have kids that they have to care for. So they're caring for two generations and they wanna find engaging content on how to help mom and dad in a accessible way. So that's my target audience and I'm just posting once a day towards that audience.

Vance Crowe [00:25:39] I mean that's, it takes discipline to do that, right? Because we're in, we kind of have the natural sense, I'm an extrovert, probably a

Gretchen Kingma [00:25:47] Yes

Vance Crowe [00:25:48] DHD, whatever the difference is, but of like, but I can reach all these people so why don't I try and do all things. And then a little bit later you come back and you're like, nobody feels like this is their home. Everybody feels like this is a generalist, but it takes real discipline to say, this is exactly who I'm going to talk to in this medium.

Gretchen Kingma [00:26:07] Yeah, and I'm sure you've heard it, everybody's heard at some point, like the saying, if you speak to everyone, you sell to none. But if you speak to one, you sell to one. And I think that, I don't think I have data to show that that has been true in my business. So I'm super passionate and it takes not only discipline, but like a little bit of getting over your fear of, well, what if my best friend from high school that's selling her first time home buyer house that I helped her buy, but she doesn't call me because I only work with seniors. And so getting over that fear of like the relationships are deeper than the media I'm posting on on Instagram, they'll still come to me. And so once I got over that, I did see both my numbers on social and actual business grow.

Vance Crowe [00:26:54] It's wild that you're saying this because it really resonates with me. I I have been like, oh, I live in St. Louis, I should be trying to get Legacy Interviews to people in St. Louis, because I look out these windows and I'm like, look, there's hundreds of thousands of people. But I was giving a talk at an ag credit conference just the other day, and these are all people that are doing succession planning. And so it's the parents and the kids that they're passing the farms down to. And these aren't like young kids. These are people in their fifties.

Gretchen Kingma [00:27:23] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:27:24] And it dawned on me like these are the people that are 80% of my customers, maybe 90%. And they are, they come from farms or land owning situations and they love their parents and their parents want to pass the land down to their kids and they want their kids and grandkids to be home with them. So I had been, I'm doing some ag advertising, doing some with people in St. Louis, some with retirement communities. And I realized just recently, like our niche, who we really do well with are people that are in agriculture that are passing something down. And it's because of my background, like my background is in communications and in ag and those are the two circles that

Gretchen Kingma [00:28:05] Yeah, that's your Venn diagram.

Vance Crowe [00:28:07] That's exactly right. And then with Legacy Interviews it makes the most sense because there's something about those families that really, really care about the story about their farm and about how they got there and about what they believe in. And, but it is really scary to do that because you're sitting there being like, but there's an opportunity going right past.

Gretchen Kingma [00:28:27] Yeah, I feel that.

Vance Crowe [00:28:29] So you mentioned that you give talks or you do education stuff. Tell me about this. Who are you talking to?

Gretchen Kingma [00:28:35] Yeah, so I, I took a little bit of a, a hiatus once dad died. I, so actually part of my career, I took a job with a tech startup outta New York City that was in the real estate space. And they wanted to build senior living in the home, threw a sale lease back. So they were targeting seniors that lived in their home forever and ever and had a ton of equity, but they didn't wanna move into senior living. And that was an eye-opening experience because I got to work with brilliant people and they're really good people. Yet in a startup you have to do the things that your investors want you to do. And they didn't always align with where I wanted to go in my professional career. So when my dad was put on hospice, I quit that job altogether and stayed home and cared for him. I did not work the rest of that year. And then I relaunched my business in 2023. So in a sense I'm kind of new at this kind of restarting, re redoing myself. And so it was through that and I forgot your question. Where, where were we going?

Vance Crowe [00:29:45] Oh, we were talking about you get invited to give talks.

Gretchen Kingma [00:29:48] Oh, talks, yes. So before, before that break, I had a course that was approved by the Missouri Real Estate Commission on Universal Design and Residential real estate. I taught it four times a year, one a quarter, and each time would have 150 to 200 realtors in the room and they would get their continuing education credits. And I had an opportunity to, to speak. Most recently I'm working with some amazing senior providers around the country. Two in Florida, one in California, four of us total. And we're building a platform for senior providers that want this level of education. How do I get on Instagram every single day and talk to my audience and reach them? How do I do seminars to speak to a larger room in order to educate and equip people so that I can grow my business, but that I'm also leaving the campsite cleaner than when I got there. So how do we make our communities better through education, but also allow that to grow our business? So we're building that real time virtual platform where we'll be doing a lot of educating.

Vance Crowe [00:30:51] And, and who do you imagine will be the people that'll come join this?

Gretchen Kingma [00:30:55] Yeah, any, anybody that wants to serve seniors. So occupational, physical speech therapist, realtors, financial planners, elder law attorneys, anyone that has identified that silver tsunami is coming and wants to serve from a, a servant heart actually wants to serve. I think anybody that sees the senior numbers and industry as a business opportunity and doesn't have the hearts won't fit for our community. But if you truly have a servant heart and love serving seniors because of the stories that they come with, because of the legacies that you get to be, that your eyes get to be open to when you serve those families, then those are the people that will join our platform and disciplinary professionals.

Vance Crowe [00:31:40] Silver tsunami, this is interesting. What, what are you describing there and how will the world look different after that tsunami has passed? Yeah,

Gretchen Kingma [00:31:47] There's a book, so I didn't come up with the term, but there's a book called Silver Tsunami. Read it yet. The statistic is 2035, which is essentially tomorrow there'll be more people 65 and older than 18 and under for the first time in US history. And so that there's a huge opportunity to serve people well. And that's what I am aimed to position my real estate. And I, we haven't even talked about my construction consulting business, but I launched that last July. So just having a business where we can help families understand all their options because baby boomers are growing in number

Vance Crowe [00:32:27] That's, I've not, I mean, I knew that the numbers were changing, but so half more than half of the population will be over the age of 65 by 2035.

Gretchen Kingma [00:32:37] Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:32:38] That's an inverted pyramid That seems very unstable.

Gretchen Kingma [00:32:42] Yeah, it's very unstable. And then you look at housing and you'll look at senior living. So just to, just to break it down, my, this is what gets me outta bed every single day. Last time HUD did an announcement or a, a census on housing, they stated that current construction built housing, existing housing in the US less than 1% is accessible less than 0.2%. So it's like 0.15% is accessible for somebody with a mobility deficit. So if you use a walker cane or wheelchair, there's 0.15% homes existing in the US that you wouldn't have to touch or do renovations. On the flip side, AARP who everybody knows and loves as a wonderful resource, does a year over year study and over 85% of seniors say that they wanna stay in their homes. So you have these homes that seniors are living in, but they don't work for them. So there's a, there's a true housing crisis on the Brinks, but most people, our generation look at it as, oh, that's out there, but it's really coming tomorrow.

Vance Crowe [00:33:50] And so what, what do you, you own a construction company or Yeah. So this is to create the sort of houses or modify the sorts

Gretchen Kingma [00:33:58] Of Yeah, so I own Custom Joy Construction with another occupational therapist that I met on Instagram. And we were, we were talking about how we were so aligned. She comes from a design and construction background. I had the real estate background and I was like, where, what part of the United States are you located? And I would love to connect. And she said, St. Louis, Missouri. And I was like, what? Me too. And so we launched our business July of 2023, started really consulting and doing accessibility consulting, giving people what we call an aging in place plan, a design for, if they're already working with a realtor and I'm not the real estate professional, I can come on the team with the real estate professional. Just like a home inspector inspects your home for the integrity of the home. I give reports and inspections on how you can plan for making this work forever and ever. Or you can't plan for this and you, you should probably move on to the next opportunity.

Vance Crowe [00:34:57] Oh wow. Let's talk a bunch more about this. 'cause what is it that you're looking at in a house that's allowing you to be

Gretchen Kingma [00:35:02] Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:35:03] That's gonna be a problem where you need to think about these things? Yeah,

Gretchen Kingma [00:35:06] So we boiled it down. There's a, a committee of people that are all passionate about this. And Tiffany, my business partner on the construction side, started an organization called the Inclusive Design Alliance. And we started that maybe five years ago now. And we came up with a criteria working with architects, builders, OTs, PTs, realtors, couple home health agencies, a bunch of, a bunch of stakeholders in the space. And we boiled down to what we call universal Design Ready UDR criteria. We presented this to the Governor's Council on Disability and Aging at, at the Capitol. And we got their stamp of approval to move it forward. And we're trying it's uphill battle to work with Marris, which is our MLS. So when you go into Zillow, realtor Redfin to look for a home, they're getting their data from the MLS, that's the governing board of real estate listings. So we brought this to them and they basically told us, not yet, they didn't say no, but they said not yet. So that three criteria that we would love to see in the MLS that makes it super simple for people to search are as follows, number one, two or fewer steps to enter a home. So if you have a home up on a hill and you have 5, 6, 7 steps, it's going to be very costly to create some sort of alternative, whether it's a platform lift, whether it's tearing those stairs out and doing a switchback ramp that goes around five times.

Gretchen Kingma [00:36:37] So two or fewer steps to enter a home is the first criteria for a forever home. Second criteria is that a bedroom, a bathroom and kitchen would all be on a level of entry. And we don't say the main level because we've seen in the market beautiful homes with walkout basements that have all of those things. A kitchenette somewhere where somebody can sleep, eat, and bathe should be all on the level of entry. And then the third is 34 inches or greater hallways and doorways, 36 inches is ideal, but that's very, very much so only attainable when you're doing new construction or full remodels. If you're buying a 50 sixties ranch and Crestwood use city, et cetera, Creve Coeur, you're not gonna be able to attain that 36 inches. So 34 would be ideal. So again, 34 inches, hallways and doorways, bedroom, kitchen and bathroom on a, on a level of entry and two or fewer steps to enter.

Vance Crowe [00:37:35] And what you're suggesting is if you were to make that a standard, then you'd be able to go on Zillow and be like, I want to click on the ones only, show me the ones that mom and dad are gonna be able to live in for the next 20 years. Yeah, that's brilliant.

Gretchen Kingma [00:37:48] And and that way the modifications, the retrofitting that they have to do can be client specific. So they're focused, they're spending their dollars on what is specific to their needs and not reconstructing a front yard because of the crazy differential steps, step differential. So that's our, that's the thinking around it. And that you would be able to cast a wide net. Currently the MLS has probably 35 search markers, like some universal design features, accessible entry, accessible parking, blah blah blah, blah, blah. So our hypothesis is if you boiled it down to three main things, you would be able to cast a wider net and it would be person to person discretion if they wanna entertain that house or not. Instead of now the way you search, you get zero, zero options that come up because the filters are so wonky.

Vance Crowe [00:38:40] So if somebody is working with their parents, they know, hey, something's gotta change. 'cause right now mom is taking care of dad and he's 200 and some pounds and mom's 110 pounds. And what is the conversation that they have just before they find you or they start talking with you?

Gretchen Kingma [00:38:59] The unfortunate thing is that nine times outta 10, we find the conversation is sitting in a hospital bed because someone fell and broke a hip. Many families are not having a proactive conversation about this. Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:39:14] We're not having it in my house. You like, there's no either. It's hard to talk to you, Dan. Well, it's

Gretchen Kingma [00:39:19] Until it's a problem. And I think that's, I think that's our parents' generation. It's just really hard to talk about hard things. And so I offer a ton of educational opportunities where, again, on Instagram, I'm marketing those to the sandwich generation, the people my age that still have dependent children who we care for and feed and pay for and take places, but we also have our parents that we have to check in on and sometimes feed and care for and get bathed. And so really just offering free strategy sessions, free seminars. I am starting one in the fall called the Downsizers Club to try to appeal to more proactive the 60 year olds that are playing pickleball every day. Like, it's okay for you to talk about downsizing. You'll actually research shows have much more longevity and quality of life if you do it now when you're in good health than if you wait until you're bedside in the hospital because of a broken hip. So I would say nine times outta 10, it's reactive. But I love a good proactive family. So

Vance Crowe [00:40:25] When, if somebody's listening to this and they have their parents and they're thinking, ah, an ounce of prevention will be worth 10 pounds of cure later. What age do you think start talking to your parents about this? You mentioned 60.

Gretchen Kingma [00:40:39] Yeah, I think if, I think if somebody has health background, the sooner the better, 55, 60, if somebody has diabetes that maybe they weren't the best at maintaining, no judgment at all, just it is what it is. They have neuropathy that they're working with every single day that they don't realize puts them at a super high risk for falls. And so it depends, again, it's not a black and white answer, but typically by the time somebody is 60, you should definitely be thinking about your real estate plan. That doesn't mean you have to move when you're 60, but you should have a plan if X then y, then Z, so that your children can help you get there. And you're not implementing a plan that doesn't exist out of sheer necessity when the o crap moment hits.

Vance Crowe [00:41:25] So tell me about this, you know, the, the talk that you're preparing to give, the one that you're setting up for people, the downsizing, how is that different than like, hey, get rid of your stuff and move into a smaller apartment or something?

Gretchen Kingma [00:41:38] Yeah, so I feel, and maybe I'm wrong, but just my personal opinion is that I feel like community is on the rise. I think that that is coming out of COVID where we were all in isolation. So I aim to build a community where others can kind of go through this together. So I'm building a seminar series where participants will graduate from the Downsizers Club, but they're not gonna be just stiffy like seminars. It's gonna be fun, upbeat, maybe music, maybe not, I don't know, I haven't gotten there yet. But something where people are feeling like they're bettering themselves. Like they go to yoga and they feel great after yoga, they go to pickleball and the endorphins are just raging because of all the exercise. So I wanna create an environment that's non-judgmental, purely educational and super proactive to give people or adult children if they want to attend the, the tools and resources to have the hard conversations to plan for the future. And it'll be a series, maybe a quarter, like four, three or four seminar series and then a graduation. And if clients do decide to let go of the 3000 square foot home that they raised all their kids in, then we'll throw a big party to celebrate them. They're graduating from the downsizers club and have, have all the options available.

Vance Crowe [00:42:58] You are uniquely matching your personality with like, like bringing people in. It's, it's very unique. Yeah.

Gretchen Kingma [00:43:06] Yeah. When was the last time you went to a graduation of somebody that was like 50 or 60? We, we graduate high school, we throw these huge parties, you graduate college, you throw these huge parties, but then like, then you have a party when you die at your rule. Like let's celebrate people proactively taking the bull by the horns and, and, and planning for their future. So that's what I envision.

Vance Crowe [00:43:26] Yeah. I was approached by a couple of different retirement groups that said, Hey, the problem that we actually have before getting people to move into assisted living where they can be a part of where they can be safe, they aren't gonna be a burden on their children, is that people are so afraid of giving away their stuff.

Gretchen Kingma [00:43:45] Hmm.

Vance Crowe [00:43:46] And so like Friendship Village for example, built out storage space that's like, you know, the, the same thing that you would have with like a garage, right? And they're like, that's not only filled up, it's filled up for the next five, 10 years and we can't build enough storage. And it's because people have this very strong connection with their things. Hmm. And so they were approaching us to say, can you help us with this? And I think that a lot of what is going on with people storing their energy and objects is that those objects are as close as they have to the stories of their life.

Gretchen Kingma [00:44:19] Hmm.

Vance Crowe [00:44:20] And so by telling the stories of your life, like going back and expressing, hey, this is what these metals were about or this hutch came from somebody, you know, further back in our family, by being able to articulate those stories, you're then able to convert this knowledge into wisdom and start moving towards another phase of your life. And it sounds like that's what your graduation is doing. It's helping figure out how do I turn that page. So it's not something I'm dreading, but it's something that I'm progressing forward with.

Gretchen Kingma [00:44:52] Yeah, exactly. And a side note there, which you didn't ask, but my husband and I are also real estate investors and there is a ton of opportunity, I know a lot of your listeners are landowners. There's a ton of opportunity in that storage space right now because of that phenomenon that people are storing so much stuff.

Vance Crowe [00:45:10] Oh yeah. From

Gretchen Kingma [00:45:10] An investment perspective,

Vance Crowe [00:45:12] I think it was maybe 15 to 20 years ago, there was something like eight feet of rented storage space for every man, woman and child in the United States. Yeah. And it has to have just

Gretchen Kingma [00:45:22] Exploded

Vance Crowe [00:45:22] Since then. I

Gretchen Kingma [00:45:23] Think after CO now it's like the boats, the RVs because people bought toys so they could get out. So yeah, buy storage. Buy storage units.

Vance Crowe [00:45:33] So you're the construction company that you've done, so like hammers are being thrown, nails going into walls, things. Yeah.

Gretchen Kingma [00:45:40] Everybody always asks who's swinging the hammers? And that's a great question because it's not me. So Tiffany is amazing. Tiffany Dill, my partner on the construction side, she is the operating principal and genius with space planning, CAD software, doing floor plans. And then she's also the project manager. So we have subcontractors and we work as a gc. The client will get a bid from us on our letterhead, and we are the client's fiduciary, we're negotiating with all of our subs to get them the best price. And Tiffany doesn't take no for an answer. So she's a really great project manager because she stays on top of, of, of the deal. And when we're working with seniors, we realize not even seniors and people with disabilities, we just did a kitchen and bathroom in Ladue area, ranch veteran who has MS. And contractors know, if not all contractors, I'm sure there are some, most contractors view it as just another job. They don't realize this person is a wheelchair user, this bathroom is the only bathroom on their main floor. They can't just hobble down the stairs and go shower in the basement. Bath. Like time is of the essence. And we can't put this person out for more than what we've promised them. And so we have to do what we said we're gonna do. And so we act as a general contractor and project manager to keep all of our subcontractors on pace to deliver the best not only product, but experience for the client.

Vance Crowe [00:47:06] Man, you are on the nose on this, like very tight on what people truly need. What have you discovered about what people need that you didn't know when you started?

Gretchen Kingma [00:47:18] I would say I knew it but didn't realize the magnitude. Funding is what people need and there's such a lack of resources and it's, it's a huge bummer. I I was at a cardinal game this Thur this past Thursday with the Starkloff Disability Institute, which is a local nonprofit that does great work in this space. And I was talking to a wheelchair user who is very fortunate and has all the resources and he was, he was saying like, I just love the work that you do and it's so needed. And he said, I don't mean to sound like a big D bag, but even with all the resources, it was nearly impossible to find a place that worked for, for me. And so, resources, financial resources, funding, just like legal and federal, like tax advantage that goes across the board. Like some states have great incentives for tax, tax incentives, other states don't, funding is all over the place. Every packet's different for Medicaid by state. So just adhesive funding across the whole United States would be a huge win for, for people in this position.

Vance Crowe [00:48:29] And when people are looking at doing either a renovation to their home or to move into an assisted living community, they certainly must be looking at the dollars and cents of this. Is there a way for them to think about what's gonna be better on their long-term finances?

Gretchen Kingma [00:48:46] Yeah, I always, I always love a good napkin math situation. And while it's, again not a black and white answer, it's, it depends on the person. If somebody has dementia, early onset of dementia, we, we know that the way that their disease is going to progress is they're gonna need the utmost care in a memory care unit. So that's gonna be more expensive than if the home can be modified and you pay somebody to come in home. So it's just very dependent on, on the family situation and what the person wants. Do they, if their goal is to stay at home, then what could we do a one-time renovation of $75,000, $90,000 might be more economical than moving into the most expensive senior living community in St. Louis and paying somebody private duty on top of that. It just depends. And

Vance Crowe [00:49:36] Are people also then putting in like living quarters for people to come in and, and stay with them for a little while?

Gretchen Kingma [00:49:42] Yeah, it's interesting because local municipalities in St. Louis, for those of that don't live in St. Louis is so bizarre in the sense that we have a million different municipalities as far as governing bodies. But that's one thing municipalities are being pushed on right now. Is there laws and regulations around accessory dwelling units because there are so many residential lots, especially the further out you go into the suburbs that have space for a very nice garden apartment or accessory dwelling unit that would be perfect for, for a caregiver or for or reversing for mom and dad to have an accessible unit in, in eyeshot earshot of their caregivers. So it is fascinating to follow the rules and regulations and laws around that because on the west and east coast, people are building accessory dwelling units, granny pads, whatever you wanna call it, left and right, but the mighty Midwest hasn't quite caught up because of the rules. And

Vance Crowe [00:50:41] It's such an interesting failure in, in the government to block that because research is very clear that grandparents that spend time with their grandchildren live a lot longer. And like being able to have that resources, somebody that can look over your kids and tell them stories and all those things. We have one house in my neighborhood that has that and you can tell like the relationship with the kids and their grandmother is something you can only have if you are living together.

Gretchen Kingma [00:51:09] Yeah. Go to Europe and that's how every family lives and that's how they've always lived. So it's very interesting.

Vance Crowe [00:51:15] Yeah. And people that are building like the, you know, proverbial McMansions, those seem to still be going up quite a bit, foresee that to change because that's the generation, you know, the people that are building 'em. Yeah.

Gretchen Kingma [00:51:28] 55

Vance Crowe [00:51:29] Years old. Yeah. You're talking about 60 being

Gretchen Kingma [00:51:31] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:51:32] Start thinking about it.

Gretchen Kingma [00:51:33] Yeah. It's interesting. I went and looked at a house, I went and looked at two houses this weekend that were new to the market. Both brand new construction, both in the eight 50 to million range, both in the central corridor here in St. Louis. So very desirable neighborhoods. One was a ranch, one was a two story with many, many, many steps. I made an Instagram video, it's gonna go live today about how you could make the one with many, many steps accessible forever and ever. And I don't understand why it takes me to point that out to a builder. They're the expert. If, if a builder would just have a plan when they build those McMansions to put two closets on top of each other, you have a built-in elevator shaft and then you can market in your, in your materials. Residential elevators are no more, it sounds like a ton, but if you're planning over 10 years, $50,000 max, you can get a nice one for 30, 35,000. You can still build the McMansion. Just be proactive about having a flex space on the main floor, having two, two or three if you wanna go to the basement closets all on top of each other and that's gonna become your elevator. There are ways to still build the McMansion and be proactive, but many people aren't.

Vance Crowe [00:52:45] Oh, that's brilliant. Right. That's like even those small things that even if you don't use them, then

Gretchen Kingma [00:52:51] They're great closet space. Yeah. And

Vance Crowe [00:52:53] Then on top of that, they're even increase your resale. Yeah.

Gretchen Kingma [00:52:56] Because

Vance Crowe [00:52:56] Now you can say, oh by the way the, the number of people that can move in here goes way up because yeah, the disability won't keep them.

Gretchen Kingma [00:53:03] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:53:04] So if people are out in the world and they are interested in finding out more about how they can either redo their house for parents or look at going into real estate, how would they find you?

Gretchen Kingma [00:53:16] Yeah, so I have a website, www.empoweredhomes.com. No crafty spelling exactly how it sounds. Empowered homes homes.com. And then I'm super active on Instagram just at the homegirl gk, which is my initials, Gretchen Kingma.

Vance Crowe [00:53:32] Well, Gretchen Kingma, thank you. So much for coming on today.

Gretchen Kingma [00:53:35] Thanks for having me. It's been a lot of fun.