Alberta Independence Movement: Oil Money, Federal Control, and Separation Explained

Vance Crowe [00:00:07] Welcome to the podcast. I'm your host, Vance Crowe. Today I decided that I was going to interview somebody that was talking about things that I'm curious about. And everyone saw all over the news yesterday that Alberta independence has been thwarted by a liberal judge in Canada. This is what all the headlines were saying. And as with everything, if you're just watching stuff on X, you don't get the whole story. And so I thought, Hey, why not just call up one of my buddies from Canada and have a conversation with him about, is al Alberta's independence? Is that a real movement? Is it actually stopped? What has gone on with this judge? Who is that? Why is all this going on? And I thought there would be no better guest than my buddy Dustin Newman. Dustin owns an oil company up in Alberta. He has been involved with the Wild Rose Party and was actually one of the people collecting signatures to get the ballot measure on the, on the table to be able to allow Albertans to say, we maybe don't want to be a part of Canada anymore. So Dustin, welcome to the show.

Dustin Newman [00:01:16] Thanks for having me be.

Vance Crowe [00:01:18] So maybe I could just kinda lay out my understanding of what's going on here and, and then you can kind of correct where, where I'm right wrong, and just kind of that way we can kind of outlay this. So Danielle Smith last year sometimes said, Hey, if Albertans really wanna break away, I'm going to give them the opportunity to sign a petition. They only have to sign. I, I think it's like, it's not, it didn't seem like that many 150,000 people need to sign this from Alberta, and that will get it on the ballot to be able to vote. Do you wanna be a part of Canada or not? And there was a big movement. There were nine questions that were gonna be sent to Canadians. And one of the questions included, do you wanna be a part away from Canada? And just yesterday, a judge from Alberta said, wait, wait, wait. You guys got the required signatures and this is supposed to be on the ballot coming up in the fall, but in fact, before you do this, you should have consulted with the tribal nations in Canada. And you didn't do that. And because you didn't do that, this is not allowed to be on the ballot. So we can go into the nuances of this, but how, how accurate is what I'm saying here?

Dustin Newman [00:02:32] So there's two different things there. One is Danielle Smith, she's gonna have a referendum in October. She's the premier of Alberta, and she put a bunch of questions that she wants people to vote on in October of this year. The independence question is actually not coming from the premier. What she did last, last year, it actually was a, a prior process, a citizens led initiative for a referendum. And Jason Kenney, the premier before brought it in. But the, this, the timeline and the amount of signatures you needed to collect was too many. It would never happen for any petition ever. Essentially, when she came into power, she re, she expanded the time limit to four months to collect the signatures and reduced the amount of signatures down per down to 10% of the last provincial election. So last provincial election was 107. 1.77 million people voted in Alberta election to, to gather the signatures. You needed 10% of that, which was 177,000. So she made the process available to the, to the people of Alberta to actually happen. What, what the state Free Alberta Group did was collect 300,000 signatures over that four month period and submitted them to Elections Alberta. Now, in the meantime, the, so Danielle Smith has not said that she'll put it on the ballot or not. She said she let the citizens decide whether they wanted it on the referendum ballot in October. What the courts did though, and you're right that these are liberal appointed judges in Canada.

Dustin Newman [00:04:08] The, the federal government appoints the judges for the entire country. So the judge is not from Alberta, and it is pointed by the federal government, which at the moment is liberal and has been for quite a while, is they came out and said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You can't do a citizen initiative on independence because you need to consult with First Nations beforehand, which obviously citizens can't do. We cannot go to the, you know, who's gonna talk to the chiefs from these nations beforehand. But what they're actually doing is saying, well, can you actually have a citizens led initiative on anything then? Because if you wanna vote on, you know, there's a citizens led initiative right now by BL that says, we don't want to develop coal in this one part of the mountains. Well, did they consult First Nations first? Like, can we actually have a citizens led initiative on, on for a referendum at all at this point? So the courts have kind of stepped in and squashed some direct democracy essentially on what Albertans care about. So that's where we sit at the moment is the, the courts have stopped the process and the Alberta government says they're going to appeal because they obviously want citizens to have the ability to have a referendum that's, that's citizen led. But obviously the way the court system work in Canada, I'm sure it's similar in the US where that could take months if not years, to actually have the appeal go through.

Dustin Newman [00:05:40] And then what's the result of that to the, we have a lot of activist judges in Canada, you know, if they turn down the appeal, what then? So if you're relying on the courts to actually make this happen, it could take years and the results still might be that Albertans can't actually decide what they wanna vote on. Now having said that, that doesn't mean the process is dead. The courts didn't say that Alberta can't have this vote. 'cause Quebec's had two of them in the past 40 years. What it's saying is that the Alberta government can call this referendum in October. And this is really, what does the Alberta government do at this point? Do they go forward with it or do they allow the courts to, you know, the appeal process to play out? Danielle Smith and the Alberta government at this point could go ahead and put the independence referendum question in October, still if they so choose.

Vance Crowe [00:06:38] So I think because I did a little bit of research on this and had my mind blown, and I think there's some context here for an American audience that, that without it, none of this makes any sense. Because to the American mind, when you think, hey, the First Nations, or they call 'em Native Americans here, you know, we had the, the Americans vanquished them, right? They were put on reservations, there were some treaties, some of them are still in play. Sometimes the native populations get things like you can run casinos or you can sell tobacco without having to get a particular tax stamp on it. But there's not huge differentiation. Now people out in the western part of the country may disagree with this, but for the most part, but in Canada it's totally different because in Canada, when in the 17 hundreds when the United States was pushing on the northern border trying to come in and, and take over Canada, the Crown made deals with individual tribes and they said, Hey, we wanna be allies here, can you help us? And there were many battles that without the native populations, it's entirely possible that Canada would look very different today. And there is a certain continuity between the crown that still exists today and those treaties that they signed with those native populations, your First Nations. And so to an American, you're like, Hey, we don't really abide by things that, you know, treaties that were signed in the 17 hundreds, but to the Canadian mindset or culture or society or law, these treaties are still in force.

Vance Crowe [00:08:12] And some of those were, you have special rights, you have protections. And what the judge in this case is saying, if I were gonna steal man, the argument is, hey, the, the, the native populations here have some treaties that say you can't just relinquish their ability to be an independent nation within the nation of Canada. And if you move this referendum forward, like this is unfair. And we are actually not meeting the obligations that the Crown has with the, those populations we're tell, this is my like, you know, first blush read on this, where, where, where do you, how do you respond to that?

Dustin Newman [00:08:50] So, so when the treaties were signed, they weren't signed with the Canadian government, 'cause Canada wasn't around at that point. They were actually signed with the British Crown and it was transferred to Canada later on when Canada was formed. Essentially all the land in Alberta is, is under treaty. So there's three different treaties that it's under. And all the land was seated to the Crown at that point. So it's not like the, the, the First Nations can come in and say, no, this is our land. That's, that's not what the treaties actually say. When you look at the, the Clarity Act in Canada, that covers off what happens if a province actually votes to become independent or separate from Canada. There's a whole process laid off, which includes consultation with the First Nations because they have a stake in this whole deal. They've got existing treaties with the government of Canada that would have to be transferred. And what does that look like? What kind of deal can be worked out at that point? So they're part of the process, but they don't have a veto over every, over anything. They, they can't say, no, this can't happen. You know, the 3% of the population that's that's First Nation in Alberta doesn't get to say, no, we don't agree to this deal. So it can't happen. Do they get consulted? Does a deal need to be worked out? Sure, yeah, it absolutely does because it affects them. And can those treaties be transferred? Yeah, if they want to keep the same deal that they have with Canada, that, you know, that could absolutely happen. But to say that they have a veto, no, they don't have that, that, you know, 3% of the population cannot be above the rest of the population when it comes to a referendum vote.

Dustin Newman [00:10:23] The other thing with this is that if you look at the First Nations, there's a bunch of chiefs which get money from the, from the federal government and and activist groups have funded some of these chiefs in, in different First Nations to oppose certain things or to take certain positions. So does the average First Nation person wanna stay under Canada or not? Like how it works in Canada right now is those First Nations people live on reserves and they don't own their own property. The government of Canada owns the property that where the reserves are. So they don't own their own, their own own land, their own property, their own houses, none of it. Which means, you know, if, if you're a First Nations person living on a reserve, you can't sell your house and move somewhere else. You have no property to sell and the government funnels you money. But you know, they're, they're little communist enclaves essentially. They're, they're words of the state because, you know, the Canadian government runs everything as an oil company. If I have oil wells on a, on a reserve, the money doesn't go to the reserve for payments. It goes to Indian Oil and Gas of Canada who then takes the money and all their bureaucratic processes and eventually gives some to the, to the reserve or the wells are, but they don't run their own society. They don't own the land where it's under. And, and the deal was signed 150 years ago or more with the, with the First Nations. So do they wanna stay under that system with Canada or you know, does the average First Nation person want to change what happened 150 years ago and look for a better deal essentially?

Vance Crowe [00:12:02] It's interesting 'cause Canada, you guys' mineral rights are so different than American mineral rights. It's like it's apples and oranges or something, right? Because my understanding is, you know, one millimeter underneath the soil, you as Canadians don't o own. So if, if you owned a, a property and you happen to be digging out there and there's gold in the ground, that gold, that oil, that whatever belongs to Canada. So how does this, like the reservation perspective change that? 'cause nobody owns anything under the soil in Canada right now.

Dustin Newman [00:12:34] So, so the Canadian government clawed back the mineral rights back quite a while ago and then eventually gave them to the provinces. The provinces back in the thirties clawed the mineral rights away from the Canadian government. So the Alberta government and the Saskatchewan government, if, if you're on the Saskatchewan side, own the mineral rights for the most part, some of the farmers actually do own the mineral rights on their land. And my grandfather actually got offered to buy the mineral rights back when he was first starting out. But money was very tight back then and he didn't buy them 'cause he couldn't really afford 'em or, or couldn't find the money to do it. And if you would've bought them, my family would be very, very wealthy because there's a bunch of oil wells on there now. But that's essentially how, you know, the system worked where the Canadian government clawed it back and then gave 'em to the provinces. So Alberta government actually owns no rights under most of the province now where the reserves are, most of the reserves own the mineral rights. Now that's something that they've essentially taken over, but it's not like the, the First Nations manage all that. That's still through Indian oil and gas in Canada, which is a, a bureaucratic entity of the Canadian government.

Vance Crowe [00:13:48] So we've kind of already jumped down a rabbit hole. This is because I actually, in my several visits to Canada and Alberta, I've gotten to talk with people that are a part of the, the movement for a free Alberta. But maybe we should step back and talk about like what is going on in Canada that Albertans like yourself even want independence and what does independence even mean? You guys gonna go be an independent nation that's landlocked, you're gonna become a a 51st state of the United States. Tell me a little bit about the background.

Dustin Newman [00:14:19] So, so the system in Canada is different than the US in, in the us not that everything's perfect in the US but you guys have a balance of power in the US between the state and the federal government, between the states and the federal government in Canada, all the power is centralized. And if you look at the roots of Canada, that goes back to the, the British government. Obviously you had Quebec, which was French at the time, and they want to centralize power so that they didn't have to worry about the French essentially taking over power in Canada. They wanted to state English. And so if you look at the Canadian system, we don't vote for our senators, they're appointed by the federal government. The federal government, when you elect them, they have almost unlimited power. Like in a majority, they almost have unlimited power. They appoint the judges, they appoint the senators, the government controls, the federal government controls almost e almost everything essentially. So when you look at the power in Canada, and this is why Alberta's had problems and it's not a problem that's happened just now. This goes back almost to the Alberta and Saskatchewan joining Confederation is elections are decided in, in Quebec and Ontario. They have enough votes. If, if you wanna win a federal election where you get all the power, you have to win Quebec and Ontario. Once you win those two though, the rest of provinces almost don't matter. So if you look at how Canada's run right now, you win Albert, Ontario and Quebec, which are very left-leaning provinces.

Dustin Newman [00:15:54] Think of something like California. If Cal, if you voted in, if, if your entire election was decided by California and you got ultimate control out of it, all you'd do is appeal to those people. Now where does all the money come out in Canada to run everything? Well, you have lots of oil and gas in Alberta and Saskatchewan, Alberta being the primary one. All that money goes to Eastern Canada and then they pay for services in eastern Canada, Ontario, and Quebec. The billions of dollars that leave Alberta to pay for programs in the east is obscene.

Vance Crowe [00:16:27] And what do you mean by that? That leaves there because I mean we, we were just talking before, the minerals for the most part aren't Albertans, right? It's not individuals that own those mineral rights. It's the, the, it's the government. So when you're pulling oil and gas out of there, what it, why does, why is it that it is being pulled out of there? Isn't Canada just getting what Canada's owned?

Dustin Newman [00:16:48] Yeah, so on the Alberta side, yes our federal, our provincial budgets mostly run off resource revenue for sure. Without a doubt. When it comes to the federal government though, the amount of taxation we have there have here all the taxes go to the federal government and then rather than sending the taxes back to pay for healthcare or other services, they get spent in other provinces. And we have equalization essentially. And, and the eastern provinces play different numbers to manipulate their numbers so they can get more of that money. But you're talking billions of dollars a year leaving Alberta to pay for stuff in Quebec. And in the Maritimes, when you're talking about something like employment insurance, we have a federal employment insurance. Alberta makes a lot of money, has lots of jobs, so the money gets pulled outta EI and then sent over to places that have less jobs like the Maritimes. And not only that, they changed the rule in some of those maritime provinces. So you have to work less before you qualify. Where in Alberta you don't get the, that luxury. So we end up paying for that and we end up paying more into CPP than what our, our, the people in Alberta actually receive in payments. So we're

Vance Crowe [00:17:55] CCP

Dustin Newman [00:17:55] We're over CPP.

Vance Crowe [00:17:57] What is that?

Dustin Newman [00:17:59] Canadian pension plan.

Vance Crowe [00:18:00] Okay.

Dustin Newman [00:18:01] Yeah. So we overpay into something like that Alberta does, 'cause we have a younger workforce that works more pays into CPP, but all the people pulling out are in eastern Canada. So we end up overpaying for everything. Which, you know, you go back 20, 30 years ago, it wasn't a big deal. Alberta didn't mind that what's happened in the last 20, 30 years, which is really sparked not that it, the movement was there before, but what has made it more mainstream is essentially what's happened around carbon taxes. This whole net zero talk, which affects Alberta, so eastern Canada that doesn't have, you know, oil and gas loves the idea of clean and net zero and all the rest of it. But what they're actually doing to Alberta is they've made pipeline regulations so cumbersome and so expensive that no companies actually want to build pipelines. Then they put a, a west coast tanker ban on. So we, part of the west coast, we actually can't bring tankers into load oil and ship oil out, which obviously that's the closest point for Alberta to sell oil to. But on the east coast they pull in oil off tankers from Saudi Arabia and that's not a problem. There's no tanker band there. It's only on the west coast. They do this. So when they actively fight our industries, which make us prosperous, that's when the Alberta people go, wait a minute, why are we paying for everything?

Dustin Newman [00:19:32] And then you're at the same time you're telling us we're we're bad people for, for producing the resources that pays for everything.

Vance Crowe [00:19:40] Yeah,

Dustin Newman [00:19:40] It's, and

Vance Crowe [00:19:41] When, when I was in Alberta, I remember, so you're in Lloydminster, right, right on the edge of, of Saskatchewan and Alberta. And so you got to hear people from both perspectives. And I remember one time I was there and I was talking to a bunch of your like local leaders, elected officials, and they were telling me, yeah, when Alberta first became a province in the early 19 hundreds, 1905, when they started running train lines out there, they said, we're happy to run these train lines out there. But if you grow grain for example, and you ship it east, we'll let you ship it at one rate if it is not milled. But if it is milled, we're gonna tack a tariff onto it to pay for these rails. Meaning that all of the actual value add that you could add to that grain, which is where you really make money in the food, in the food process, was going to be taken by the east. And this is what I understand is kind of also going on with oil. You, you can pump it outta the ground, but you gotta send it east because if you refine it, we're gonna put on so many regulations that makes it impossible for you to do. And you know, you could look at it and say, well this is just the way the country was set up. Your people decided to move to Alberta, that was the deal and you don't like it a hundred and you know, 120 years later, why should you be able to change it? This is the way everything was set up.

Dustin Newman [00:21:02] What's actually fun, funny about oil right now is the east actually killed the pipeline project that would take oil from Alberta and take it out east, which is hilarious. 'cause right now obviously there's an oil shortage happening in the world and they're having troubles getting enough oil. So you take care of your own countries, you think what you plan for, but that's not what they've planned for at all. And there's rumblings and, and I can see this happening over the next couple years, especially if the oil price stays here goes higher, is the amount of money that Alberta and the energy companies are gonna start making will be a lot because of the oil price. What happened in the eighties with the National Energy Program is the government of Canada, you know, stepped in and tried to take a bunch of that money. And I can see that happening again where like, well, Alberta's making too much money or the oil companies are, we'll, we'll take our cut essentially. And this all goes back to why there's alienation in Alberta and the, and the west is when you don't get representation, when the central control in, in Ottawa decides your fate, they actively fight your in industries and, and then take the money to pay for services on the other end. It's, it's not a great deal for us. The other point I'll make about the oil industry is we ship most of it to the states. And if you do any kind of number crunch on it, what you realize is that we sell our oil at a discount to the states I've talked to to to people who buy our oil down there.

Dustin Newman [00:22:35] And there's, there's people that buy oil, our oil in the state's for cheap because we have a discount on it because we can't get a, we don't have enough buyers for the oil we produce. They'll put it on tankers and ship it elsewhere in the world for a profit. So we're actually subsidizing the US with our oil and they're making a bunch of the profit out of, out of it, which actually makes Canada poorer. We make less resource revenue that way for the province, let producers make less. And the federal government makes less outta taxes if we shipped it to the west coast of BC where they put the tanker ban in the pipeline rules. So we can't, and and started shipping some of it to China or Japan or some of those other places and have more places bidding on our oil, our price would naturally go up. But the federal government has essentially killed that because of climate change in net zero.

Vance Crowe [00:23:25] So if you guys were to get, first of all the, the referendum doesn't actually just then automatically make Alberta separated from Canada, right? The referendum would just vote like, hey, we're gonna get into the process of fulfilling what these people want, which is independence. What happens then? A referendum, let's say it gets back on the, on the docket, it passes by more than a majority rule. What's next?

Dustin Newman [00:23:53] So at that point, the provincial government would start negotiating with Canada. Now it depends on what the provincial government decides at that point on how they want to negotiate. Because there's a couple different routes that could go about it. One is let's negotiate to remain within Canada but get a better deal. They could realistically do that, especially if they're not, let's say it's a 51 49 vote, 51 in favor of of independence and 49 against. It's realistic to think that the Alberta government who isn't a separatist, you know, you know the provincial party who's in power didn't run on independence, is not a separatist party. Realistically, they could go to Canada and try and work out a better deal that would appease Albertans to stay in Canada. On the other hand, they, at that point, that's one route they could go. Another route they could go is approach Canada and saying, look, we're becoming an independent nation. Let's negotiate our exiting out of this. And if Canada tries to stall or block it at that point, Alberta, you know, elected officials could call up the United States and say, look, will you guys recognize us as a country and, and make a deal on providing some military power to ensure it? Which is probably something the US would be willing to give, would be my guess. And then declare its independence. Un unilaterally. If, you know, let's assume the government of Canada doesn't want to negotiate or tries to stall.

Dustin Newman [00:25:27] That would be the route you could go. The other, you know, the government of Canada, if they negotiate in good faith and obviously you negotiate in good faith and you make the deal and get it done. But there's a couple different paths that go. It can go depending on what the elected officials in Alberta want to do.

Vance Crowe [00:25:42] It's just such a a, a wild idea to imagine that borders would change. In fact, I was talking with my wife about this this morning and throughout my entire lifetime, it's like the, the country borders that exist are the ones that will exist forever. When, when you think about this, you're open to the independence movement. But when I talk to people in the eastern part of the country, they kind of give you the middle finger, fuck you guys. Like, you're not, we're one Canada, we, we, we believe that we should all stick together. Why do you guys think that you're so oppressed that you can break apart the nation? What do you say to people that are in the eastern part of the country saying, you know, we don't want you to have a breakaway from from Canada.

Dustin Newman [00:26:28] Do you believe in democracy or not? Do you believe the will of the people, you know, if someone, if a a group of people want to leave, can you force them to stay? Are we a tyranny? The the funny thing about it all is the demands of Alberta aren't all that obscene or are ridiculous. And it's not like as an Albertan I'm sitting here saying, I hate the rest of Canada. I don't. But at a certain point you have to take care of your own family, your own community, your own province. And if, if the Canadian government's stopping our, our development and the, the ability of our, our children in the future to provide for themselves. Like I, I had this conversation with with someone who's, you know, a boomer essentially, and they're like, well we don't wanna leave Canada. I'm like, here's the pro, you know, you guys look at it, you remember the good times. Your kids have all made it. They have their own kids. For me, I have kids that are 13 and 15 and and the prospect of Canada, where it's at at the moment, it's like, well I'd love to keep my kids near me once they get old enough to start their own lives. But I look at the economic pros, prospects, and if they said, well no, I want to go here or there because the opportunities are better, I probably wouldn't keep 'em here. Ideally you keep your kids close to you, they get jobs and, and have opportunities around you and, and you could, you know, enjoy your grandkids. But with where Canada is at the moment, I look five, 10 years down the road and if my daughter who's 25 at the time says, no, I'm gonna move over here because there's more opportunities, I wouldn't stop her.

Dustin Newman [00:28:06] Now that's not what I want. But I don't see how I can stop her because I know the opportunities that are there and I know where we're at.

Vance Crowe [00:28:15] Another perspective that I've heard quite a few times is that Canada, while it, it has some allegiance to the crown, right? It's, it's a, it's a, it it has to hold the treaties up that the, that the monarch in the in England puts forward that the truth is that it's actually a US protectorate and the US has Canada set up right the way they want it. The fact that you guys have so many climate change regulations, they have so many things that you can't do. To your point exactly. You Alberta is going to ship their oil down to the United States. And so the idea of an Albertan independence is not appealing to them 'cause they're getting a, a firestorm deal on the, on the, on the oil on the other goods that you guys can't send east. What do you think about that?

Dustin Newman [00:29:04] Oh, well I can see it on some hands for, for the us wanting that because they do get our, our products at a discount, which is, you know, for a, for a developing a country like the US that has lots of industry, that'd be great. At the same time, if you look at what's going on with our activist judges when it comes to crime and the effects that's having on the US that's gotta be concerning. The drug trade is becoming a major issue here. Money laundering. Like there's a lot of not good things happening in Canada. And do you want a country beside you that, that is getting worse over time and becoming a, a security issue? Or do you want a strong neighbor that, that you know you can work with and that is competent?

Vance Crowe [00:29:48] Yeah, I mean, I'll tell my experience of Canada, 'cause I've been coming up there for 10 years. You guys have been great to me. I have no foot in this game. Like, I, I don't want, I don't want Canadians telling Americans what to do with our politics and I don't want, I, I definitely don't want to tell you guys, but my observation was when I've gone to Canada, it has become way more woke in the last 10 years than I ever imagined possible. Just, just things that are written at your airport, the way things are set up with flags and what ideology is there is mind bending it, it puts California to shame. And then the other side of it is you can be in the center, you can be in the northern part of some of these provinces and you can walk up and down the streets and there's no white people there. It, it can, you can go, I went into a drugstore where the two people I tried to talk with to converse with, to buy very simple products, the problem wasn't they were speaking French, it was that their Indian accent was so thick that I couldn't understand them. Your country has changed so much just in the 10 years, 15 years that I've been traveling there to give talks that it is absolutely mind bending to me. And I think one of the things that strikes me about it is when Danielle Smith first got into office as your premiere, she was on, I think on your brother's podcast talking about how they wanted to bring millions more people to Alberta. They weren't bringing millions of native Canadians there.

Vance Crowe [00:31:21] They were gonna bring millions more people that are radically changing the, the culture of Canada, particularly Western Canada.

Dustin Newman [00:31:30] Yeah. So what's funny about that is if you look at the history of Canada with, you know, French and English back when Canada was founded, they, they had a big program of bringing English people over to Canada. And what's funny is I watched my son and his social studies courses learn about this. And the reason why they did that was to change the culture. They didn't want, you know, big French places. They wanted an English Canada. And so they brought in all these English people, di dilute the first Nations and the, and the French out and have an English Canada. And then you're like, well wait a minute, what are we doing right now? And Canada's always been a country of immigrants, but it happened at a pace that was slow enough for them to adapt into Canada and not vice versa, where the migrants overtook Canada and changed the country fundamentally. And if you look at the directions Canada have, Canada's heading right now where it's talking about becoming part of the EU or or joining up with Europe where you have tons of immigrants come or tons of migrants, not even immigrants, tons of migrants coming, coming in, changing the structure of Canada. If you look at housing prices in Canada, it's a big deal right now because there's so many people coming to Canada, we can't keep up with housing. And so the pricing on housing is, is gone ridiculous because of that. And no one's really talking about it. And yeah, like the reason why we have a liberal, liberal government right now is because of your US president. Now I don't deal with US politics and, and, and that's not something I'm concerned about. But the whole reason that Carney got in was because Donald Trump came out and said, well maybe we'll just make Canada part of, of the US and one of Canada's biggest ideals is not being American.

Dustin Newman [00:33:14] And what happened in Eastern Canada was as soon as Trump came out and said that Carney, his whole line was elbows up or, you know, don't back down from the us we're not becoming a part of the us you know, the US president's a jerk, that kind of thing. And that's how he ended up winning the, the election in Alberta or in Canada. So yeah, right, right now where we're headed is a very bad place. Being part of the EU is idiotic making enemies with the US like Alberta, 80% of our our exports go to the us We export way more to the US than we do to the rest of Canada. But we're gonna pick a fight with the us That's, that's our grand plan. Like how's this gonna work out? We're also getting a lot closer with China at the moment as well. Canada is in general and we're talking about, you know, making, you know, making a closer relationship with Chi China and getting, kind of getting rid of the US like long term. That's idiotic.

Vance Crowe [00:34:13] Well Dustin, we're gonna continue this conversation, but I do wanna take a quick break to talk about Legacy Interviews when I'm not doing podcasts or traveling to Canada to give talks. I sit down with individuals and couples to record their life stories so that future generations can know their family history. And I wanted to play a little video of a guy named Brian saying it in his own words. We'll be right back.

Legacy Interviews client testimonial (ad segment) [00:34:36] You're doing such a great thing to, to provide people with this future generations will enjoy what you're laying out for 'em. I hope that my anybody in the future looks at me and goes like, oh grandpa, great-grandpa, great-great grandpa. Whatever's like, seemed like cool cat done some nutty stuff. I don't know if we even began to touch on this stuff, but that, well this was just volume one, so we'll get by too in a couple years. Sure.

Vance Crowe [00:35:07] So if you're interested in having me record one of your family members, or you can do it in person here in St. Louis with me or we provided online, go to Legacy Interviews dot com to find out more. You know, Dustin, one of the things that I've perceived is that the, the, the sense of freedom or like wanting to be liberated from from Canada, people make the comparison about like, oh, it's kind of like Alberta is like Texas, but Texas is like, has a long history of being independent. Alberta's is something different and I think probably better described by how, I don't know, there's something very different about your history about who Alberta is and it's not a group of people that really wanna be free. The people that were showing up out in the cold, holding up signs during the trucker rally, the people going out and doing these signups. These are not like people oriented from a culture of like rugged individual independence. Is that right?

Dustin Newman [00:36:13] No, I think you got a dead wrong Vance.

Vance Crowe [00:36:15] Okay.

Dustin Newman [00:36:17] If, if you look, the reason why Alberta is this focal point is because of its history. The reason why the rest of the Canada attacks Alberta is because Alberta is, has an independence mindset. If you look at the amount of entrepreneurs in Alberta, that's what it was founded on. That's why it is what it is. And that's why Canada attacks it. And if you go back to how Alberta was founded, and the same thing with Saskatchewan, my ancestors, how they came here is they took a railway across and, and went to a homestead. So my ancestors, and you can imagine like the winters here are brutal. You got six months, you got weeks, weeks on end of minus 40 weather in Canada. So these people were incredibly rugged. Now they're coming from places like, you know, great Britain,

Vance Crowe [00:37:06] Lots of them had

Dustin Newman [00:37:07] Money in Great Britain, but they left because they were looking for adventure, looking for independence. And they came here on the promise of land and, and starting a new life. So they came across to a, a piece of land that had never been broke, maybe set up a tent for the first winter in minus 40 weather or, or built a sod house, you know, lived in a dirt house. And that's how they survived the first couple winters. Now not everyone survived and not everyone stayed. 50% of the people who came out here either left or died. The people who remained were the most adventurous and the most independent people. Now some of those people were actually Americans. There was a bunch of Americans that came up to Alberta that did that. And so the founding of Alberta, like it wasn't like government people did anything in those days. You're out in the middle of the prairies in the middle of nowhere surviving for years and years and years on end. There's stories like my, my in-laws, my, my wife tells a story about her, how her great-grandfather had this harvest and wildfires burnt it in the first couple of years and he had to start over from scratch. You know, my great-grandfather had a, had a horse barn that burnt down and he had to start over from scratch. Like those people were incredibly resilient and hardy. And so if you look at why the west, the western part of Canada is here, where we're at is because of the legacy that originated from back then. Now if you look at Canada as a whole, yeah it's a little bit different.

Dustin Newman [00:38:37] It's more of a, you know, it comes from a monarchy where Britain set it up and we don't have the rugged individualism that, that the US has because of that. But the reason why Alberta is kind of compared to Texas or is in a lot of ways similar to, to the us not, not that we wanna become a part of the us we don't, we wanna become an independent country, but the reason why we're kind of compared to that because there is a ruggedness that is similar to what you would find in the US in parts.

Vance Crowe [00:39:06] Yeah. I guess I should reframe. I don't mean not rugged. If you've, if anybody's ever traveled to Lloydminster, right? Or you know, flown into Edmonton and then driven anywhere outside of where those oil rigs are, this is like desolate cold. You are out there on your own. There just is something to Canadian culture that even though you're talking with Westerners, I've, I've been to the cattle producers out there, I've been to the grain growers. Like even though you guys are really independent, there's like a community like let's get along. Let's, let's find a way to, to work together that just, it, it's just, it's frankly it's not, maybe it's American. I don't want to overstate that. Like, I don't know you guys have a, like we can take it on the chin a lot more than, than what I see in the us

Dustin Newman [00:39:54] Yeah, you're probably right about that. When it comes to something like the trucker convoy, it, you know, it kind of originated out of Alberta when it comes to actually us working together. Like the other part of, if you look back and, and my grandma used to talk about this, her favorite days were back when she was younger, when there wasn't all the free travel. You know, you, you weren't going to vacation in Hawaii or anything. You, everything was local. And you can imagine if the winters of that brutal and, and it was a hard life, your surrounding community became absolutely crucial to surviving essentially. And you relied upon neighbors and it wasn't like, oh they're over there and we're over here. You had to absolutely work together just to survive. So, you know, could that be part of it? Sure. And then the Canadian culture in general is a little bit more apathetic in general. So that might play a part of it.

Vance Crowe [00:40:52] Okay. So where do things go from here? A judge there just struck down, you're not allowed to move forward with this vote. Does that mean it's dead? Not going anywhere? I saw Danielle Smith say, if you wanna make sure that this referendum happens, tell people they're not allowed to have a referendum and that's gonna piss off so many people. But what can they do? A judge just made the ruling.

Dustin Newman [00:41:15] So the Alberta government can still put the referendum on the, you know, on the ballot on October, which would mean that the UCP government, Alberta, Alberta government and Danielle Smith would have to put it there. If you look at the last five years and what's happened to Alberta, they, they probably will do it even if they don't support independence, they might still do it. And the reason why is this is coming outta COVID. We had a, a premier called Jason Kenney and during COVID I, he said that one thing he would never do is have a vaccine passport. And then he implemented a vaccine passport. And one of the things during that vaccine passport did during COVID was in the wintertime in Alberta, everything revolves around the hockey rink for the most part because it's cold and brutal outside and you need something to do and it's six months long. So hockey's a big part of culture here and I know for our local arena, if you didn't institute a vaccine passport, you couldn't run the concession for the arena. And so larger communities actually had scan, you know, checking vaccine passports essentially to make sure you were allowed in. But for communities that didn't want to do that, you couldn't run your concession. So what happened coming out of that is, is people joined the UCP party forced to vote on Jason Kenney and voted him out. And he stepped down because of that. So that's what's happened in the last five years. The UCP party, they've done a poll in about 60% of members to the UCP are in favor of independence.

Dustin Newman [00:42:52] What could easily happen is that Danielle Smith doesn't move forward on this referendum vote is the membership gets together again, forces a vote on Danielle Smith and votes her out. So at this point she hasn't said she's in favor of independence, but she supports the process. If she doesn't move on this, it's entirely likely that the members will get together, force a vote on her leadership and vote her out.

Vance Crowe [00:43:16] You guys really do have a very interesting politician in Danielle Smith. So my understanding of her was she was a rising star in the Wild Rose movement, which I think ostensibly was an independence movement at least, you know, break Alberta away from federal control. I don't know if it was independence or not. Then she crossed the aisle and and supported some conservatives and basically was thrown out of the party and then wasn't really that successful as a conservative politician. So then she became a radio host that was pretty anti, I don't know if it was anti-vax or anti-vax or like mask during COVID. I, and then somehow found her way as the premier of Alberta, you know, going from a radio host to now and now finds a way to balance between what our large city, you know, voting blocks, Calgary and Edmonton and you know, the independence movement. And somehow she has found a way to stay in power. What are your thoughts on Dan? Is first of all, is that a good analysis? And second of all, how would you,

Dustin Newman [00:44:21] Well close but not quite. As she started out as a radio host and then became the leader of the Wild Rose Party, which was a startup party. She took it to almost within winning the provincial election, very close lost and then some she got surrounded by some people and made the decision to cross the floor over to the ruling party, which was the conservative party. And that fractured everything at that point. 'cause there was wild rose people that left the conservative party 'cause the conservative party was doing a bunch of stupid things and it actually fractured the, the conservative movement on the in Alberta. And the NDP got in for a while, which is a very left-leaning party. And she left politics after that 'cause everybody was pissed at her for doing that. And she went back to radio. You're right Jason Kenney eventually joined the Wild Rose and the conservative party together under the UCP won the provincial election and was obviously empowered during COVID. She went back to the radio and she was always a free me, she's a very smart lady, very free thinking. And she was having discussions on one of the radio stations about alternative therapies, all alternative treatments and, and all sorts of stuff COVID related. And eventually had to leave the radio station 'cause they weren't happy that she was having freethinking conversations on radio essentially. And so she left that and eventually Jason Kenney got voted out because of his approach to COVID. She ran for the leadership, won the leadership, and is now the head of the UCP.

Vance Crowe [00:45:52] Now

Dustin Newman [00:45:54] Where she sits right now is she took the line where at this moment she believes, she stated numerous times that she believes that a strong Alberto in inside of unified Canada, essentially having said that she did change the rules to make a referendum possible. And she's a smart lady who understands the challenges of Canada at the moment. We are very woke in this country, although she's pushed a bunch of policies back when it comes to, you know, restricting treatments for kids that are transgender or, or, you know, wanna stop puberty. She's restricted that she's in for allowed, removed a bunch of the woke stuff from the schools, given parental more control over what's happening, push back against the woke side of it essentially. And she's by far the best premier in all of Canada to do that. But like net zero is a disaster for Alberta. The carbon tax is a disaster for Alberta and you're dealing with the federal government that won't give on any of it. So part of what she says people don't like, but at the same time she's provided an avenue for Albertans to push for a referendum even though the court just struck it down. So

Vance Crowe [00:47:16] Yeah, that probably shouldn't be understated what she did there. Right? She got into power and then was able to change it. It used to be your version of I think counties, you used to have to have like a certain percentage of every single one of what do, what do you guys call those? They're not counties, they're not parishes? No,

Dustin Newman [00:47:32] No, they're counties in Alberta. Yep.

Vance Crowe [00:47:33] Counties. Okay. It used to be you had to have a certain number of the counties that, that would agree with that referendum. And in a, in a province like Alberta, that's huge. It's an, it's an enormous number and a wide spread and she switched up so it only had to be 10% of the electorate, but it doesn't matter which, which county they're from.

Dustin Newman [00:47:54] That's right. Well, before the rules changed, it was 20% in three months you had to collect on a petition, which petitions are hard to gather signatures for. Let's, let's not kid ourselves here, but you're also right, like two thirds of the counties had to reach the 20% threshold as well, which meant there was no petition ever that would really qualify for it. And what happened with this petition was 300,000 votes at a a hundred, 1.77 million people. That's a, that's an impressive number. Now on the flip side of that, the Forever Canada people, there's another group that wanted Alberta to stay part of Canada forever, and they came out with a petition and, and they gathered 400,000 signatures for Alberta to stay within Canada. But now they don't wanna referendum on that question because if the question is we want Alberta to stay within Canada, what happens if people vote? No? What, like what happens at

Vance Crowe [00:48:47] The end of that now?

Dustin Newman [00:48:48] So now they don't want a referendum because, because what happens if they say like, what would happen if you say no to that question?

Vance Crowe [00:48:54] Well, and did the judge strike that down? Because I, I wonder if they went and got the, the, the tribal input on that one?

Dustin Newman [00:49:02] No, they did not strike that down. So

Vance Crowe [00:49:05] Yeah. Okay. So so you, you, you actually went out and collected signatures?

Dustin Newman [00:49:10] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:49:11] Okay, tell me what that's like. You, you walk up to somebody's house, you knock on their door. How are you meeting people? And what, tell me that conversation.

Dustin Newman [00:49:19] So what, what happened for the most part across Alberta? So there was 7,000 people canvassing for, for petition signatures, which out of a province of Alberta, that's a lot, a lot of people got involved. So 7,000 people got their badge so they could collect signatures. But for the most part what happened was some businesses would give you space to sit in their business and you advertise to come there, but a lot of people put, did pop up. So they'd take their vehicle park alongside the road somewhere at a intersec, you know, off a, you know, not an intersection, but somewhere where there's space to, to set up essentially put up Alberta flags and just have people pull up in the vehicles and sign. Now remember this happened over like January through till April, which isn't real pleasant in Canada, but that's how a majority of the signatures were collected was on roadside popups. Now the reason why it was roadside is because a lot of the cities and towns, they wouldn't allow you to actually set up in public places or they'd find rules so that you couldn't set up in their parking lots or in their buildings. We, we tried to have one in the arena parking lot in Lloydminster and the cops got sicked on us and said that we can't set up there essentially

Vance Crowe [00:50:29] In Lloydminster of all places.

Dustin Newman [00:50:31] Absolutely.

Vance Crowe [00:50:32] Wow.

Dustin Newman [00:50:33] You, you have to remember that a lot of these cities and and villages get funding from the federal government. So if you want, you know, funding for your whatever, you better not piss off the federal government. Right. So,

Vance Crowe [00:50:46] So somebody comes up to you, they're already pretty warm. You're, you're not, you're not like ma having to make a pitch to them?

Dustin Newman [00:50:53] No, not for the most part. People who stop in there are, we did do some door knocking, but for the most part it was all popups and we had a couple businesses in town that were where we'd set up kind of permanently. So

Vance Crowe [00:51:05] Did you get any hate while you were out there?

Dustin Newman [00:51:07] Oh yeah, yeah. No, there was people that come in and and be mad at you. We never had anyone too severe in our area, but I know of areas where, you know, there was either threats made or or yelling, those kind of things. So yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:51:21] So steel me on the other side. What, what is the person that is angered about you or you know, one of your compatriots getting signatures? What, what is their fair criticism? What is the thing they're worried about that probably should be addressed?

Dustin Newman [00:51:38] I think for the most part there, there's two things driving them. One is a love of Canada. They've, they've been Canadian their whole life and they like being Canadian. They like what Canada in their mind represents a peaceful, kind people who, who work hard and get along kind of thing. I, I think that's, that's part of what's, you know, especially when it, you look at the boomer generation or the older generation, they, you know, Canada went through some hard times and stuck together and, and it was a, you know, I grew up in a great time in Canada where we were prosperous and, and free. And then the other side of it is, is fear. So the other side either talks, you know, remembers back to the, the times where things were great and what a Canadian ideal was, which is actually funny 'cause the federal government's been talking about how Canada doesn't have an identity for the last 10 years. But, but, so there's that side of it. The other side is just playing fear that if, if Alberta separates, we're gonna be poor and destitute and the US is gonna take us over and we won't be able to defend ourselves and we won't be able to get our products to market. And, and just general fear in general.

Vance Crowe [00:52:49] And where do you think this is going, man? Like if we are, if we're gonna, if we put on the calendar one year from today, what, what will the world look like to an Albertan?

Dustin Newman [00:53:05] So let's, let's assume that October there is an independence vote. That's a, that's a moment in time that's hard to see past at the moment, somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 to 40% of Albertans are in favor of independence. Could it stay like that and, and, and Alberta stays in Canada? Yeah, it could easily do that for sure. And there's lots of people saying that, but if the referendum gets put on October 19th, a lot can happen between now and then. When I look at the independence side, I think a, a message you have to be able to inspire people to show them what could become, what an Alberta could look like and why you want to get there. And if the right speaker, if the right inspiration comes out where it's like, look, do you want to live under the boot of, of Canada where they take your money and tell you what you can and can't do when it comes to your prosperity and your development? Like that's one path to go. The other path is we come from a people who survive 40 below winters with no one helping them. And we're the most rugged and individual people to be able to do that is incredible. And that's our, that's our, that's our lineage.

Dustin Newman [00:54:37] Is this going to be easy? No, it's not gonna be easy. Is there gonna be problems down the road? Sure. But do we want to take our future in our own hands and, and, and try to build something better than what we have right now? We can do it. We've done it before. That's what our lineage shows.

Vance Crowe [00:54:56] You know, kind of as we wrap up, one of the thoughts I have is that is it's hard for me to think of very many movements that successfully separated a strong power from resources that did not require violence. There was Quebec when they wanted to get their independence even, they used a lot of violence to, to bring about at least getting treatment that they, they thought, you know, kept them protected. Where, where, where is violence in this whole conversation that you're having and, yeah, I don't know how to ask this question other than to say, is that an inevitable conclusion? If people really want freedom,

Dustin Newman [00:55:44] It really comes down to Canada. Do they, you know, there, there's, so let's say the, the Referend vote is in favor at that point, Canada has a decision to make. They can decide, no Alberta's not leaving, which violence is inevitable at that point. Or Canada can say, you know what? They wanna leave, that's fine. Let's work out a deal where they can separate. It's kinda like a divorce, right? Decide whose is what and we will separate, you know, they can go their way, we'll go ours and we'll move on. Or you can go, you know what, Alberta's ours, no matter what the people say, and we'll take what's ours and violence ensues after that because you know, do you want independence or not? And if you look at the states, that's what the states did back in the day with Britain, was Britain said, no, America's ours. And the states said, no, we're not going to, you know, you're not just gonna take all the wealth out of America. This is ours. And I think for Alberta that's, you know, if Canada says, no, no, no, Alberta's ours, you go, no, no, no, we live here. This is ours and if we have to fight you for it, so be it.

Vance Crowe [00:56:57] Well Dustin, this has been a wonderful conversation. Thank you for putting up with my very, very rudimentary understanding and all of my, my quips back at you. If people are find, finding what you're saying to be very interesting, where would you suggest they go to learn more, hear about, participate, where should they go?

Dustin Newman [00:57:17] So if you go on Twitter, you can find me at Newman, Dustin. So that'll be one spot. But stay free. Alberta has a website, Alberta Prosperity Project has another website. There's numerous speakers on Twitter that are very good that talk about this stuff. Corey Morgan and Eva Chipiuk and Keith Wilson. There's a bunch of people that that dedicate all their time to it. I dedicate some of my time but I've got other stuff on the go so, but there, there's a bunch of people that are heavily involved with this all the time so.

Vance Crowe [00:57:48] Well thank you so much for coming on Dustin.

Dustin Newman [00:57:51] Thanks for having me Vance.

Vance Crowe [00:57:53] Alright, that's gonna do it for this week's show. Thank you for showing up. I have started to really focus the podcast on just being, hey, how can I have a conversation with people that are talking about things that I think are interesting. Next week on Monday I'm going to be interviewing the one and only Joscha Bach. We're gonna talk about AI and anybody that's listened to the podcast before knows that he is one of the best guests that anyone could have on a subject. His way of thinking is mind bending and his knowledge of AI stretches back decades as he's been something, somebody that's been talking and using AI for far longer than it's been on the public consciousness. I'm gonna wrap up with a little video on the interest based communications course that I've been running. If you are interested in taking this course, we are offering it in July here in St. Louis and you can sign up as an individual at Articulate Ventures slash IBC. Alright, we'll see you next week.

Ad segment / testimonials (multiple voices) [00:58:52] Good negotiation is one where both parties walk away slightly disappointed. That was probably my default world model BV before Vance. Well, Vance had a lot of these models that he created. I ingrained a lot of these models so deeply from working with Vance for a long time that I started to recommunicate them to my friends and my friends' eyes had the same sort of light up of understanding of like, this is a thing that could help me be more effective in life. Whenever Vance let me know that he was working on sort of putting this into more of a workshop form, I was like, yeah man, I want that for my team. Like now if my first two employees go through this so that we have this shared set of context and a shared set of language that's gonna create value for my team going forward. I wanted to get better at communication myself. I knew I had good ideas in my head that I wanted to be able to communicate to potential investors and I was not super confident in being able to do that before. I thought that negotiation was basically for people in a boardroom, like CEOs, words like shareholder are involved. So I thought that you had to have a lot of resources at your disposal to even care about negotiations. Both people had to lose or both people weren't happy in the end. I found that what you both want is achievable by understanding the needs of the other person more. A negotiation is really a way to solve a problem that you have. You can rearrange the world in such a way where all parties get something that they're happy with. So you don't need to possess great resources to be involved in a negotiation or to really benefit from knowing how to negotiate.

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