Father Tells 9-Year-Old Son About Pulling Gun on Abusive Boyfriend: Parenting After Trauma

Jason Bockman [00:00:00] This guy cut me off and I leaned out of the car, and what I was thinking is I was gonna grab his bumper and flip his car over, is what came to my mind. And sometimes it's like, you know, like we went to New York and I was like, look, when we're there, I need you to stay with me. There's a lot of people. And they're like, well, somebody take us. And I was like, that's why you gotta stay with me. They're like, what? What happens when they take you? I'm like, people kill kids and put penises in their butts, you know, like, and they're like, what? And I was like, yeah, that's what happens. He pulls up, I go into the parking lot, I was like, Hey man, you're not welcome here. I'm like 13, 14 years old. And he said that he was gonna like, you know, he's like, fuck you bitch. I'll slap you or whatever, spank you or something like that. I lift my shirt up and hit you like, look like you saw a ghost. You know? I was like, get outta this car. I'm shooting your face leave. Do you believe in God? Yeah. I believe there's a God. It's not like a, like I am Jeremy Osh, a retirement community, CEO, living in Eureka, Illinois. And you are listening to the Vance Crowe podcast.

Vance Crowe [00:01:07] Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here today. Jason Bockman returns. If you're a longtime listener of the podcast, you know, I had Jason on five years ago, and during that bombshell conversation, we heard about a childhood that most of us can barely imagine. It was chaotic and troubled, and Jason ended up having to escape a cult and almost got sent to prison. This conversation was really amazing, and I remember thinking, wow, this guy who looks like this giant Jim Bro, is actually a really philosophical, thoughtful person that has figured out how to connect with others in a way that most of us could only dream of. Jason has become a successful businessman and in respected and admired member of the St. Louis community. I know that over the years, as we've done interviews, and Jason and I have seen each other outside of this studio, I've come to really admire and respect who he is and how he thinks about things. So what you're about to see is a conversation of two men, two friends that don't get to see each other very often, but have shared a lot over the years. And I hope you feel like this is a chance for you to sit down with some friend that you've gotten to know over time. We talk about a lot of things. We talk about God, we talk about my mentor Pete, but ultimately the conversation really gets interesting when we talk about fatherhood and how Jason is preparing his children to leave the Garden of Eden.

Vance Crowe [00:02:38] We talk about innocence and how much you should protect it versus preparing your children for a world that can be cold and uncaring. This is an unparalleled conversation, and I think you will see that it is really something special. If you like this, I hope you'll send me a DM and tell me about what you thought of it, and maybe even better than that, if you would consider giving us a five star review and writing positively about not just this episode, but the podcast in general that gives us a chance to grow, be seen by more people, and helps us find more guests like Jason to bring on. We're gonna get to that interview in just a moment, but earlier this week, I had kind of a profound experience. I had two of my friends and a complete stranger talking with me about Legacy Interviews, and they were all saying the same thing. It was approximately, I just keep putting it off. I know I wanna do it. I've talked with my wife about doing it, I've thought about it. I've even gotten my siblings to think about it, but I just haven't gotten it done. Now with my two friends, that's okay. I'm never gonna do a hard sell whenever it's right for them. I know it'll be right, but the stranger that called me actually wasn't telling me that he's gonna do it now. He said, I'm calling because I was too late. My mother passed away about a month ago, and I should have done this interview. And now in hearing the podcast, I wanna reach out to you to say, you gotta do a better job of convincing people to overcome that procrastination. Now, I don't really know how to do that.

Vance Crowe [00:04:10] I know that many of the reasons that people don't do it are around. I don't know if I can afford it. I don't know if I can get my siblings on board with it. I'm not sure if my parents will like it or if it'll make 'em uncomfortable thinking that maybe they're gonna pass on. And that's the only reason I'm asking for these stories. Whatever your objections are, whatever the things that are keeping you from it, maybe a way to get past them is to give us a call here at Legacy Interviews. I've talked with hundreds of people about this, and almost every one of them decides, you know what, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna overcome these challenges in this way or that way. But most of the time, the reason that we procrastinate is 'cause we don't know what the next step is. So the stranger that had called me up said, you need to do a better job of helping people know what that next step is. So the next step for you could either be to go to Legacy Interviews dot com or check out the show notes where I have the phone number for Legacy Interviews. If you pick up the phone and call, you'll either get me directly or you'll get our admin, Jessica, who is one of the best conversationalists out there, and she can talk with you about what challenges you're facing and how we can best prepare a legacy interview for your family members. I'm telling you this because I think it's gonna help you. I think that if you've had this sense of dread that you wished you'd gotten it done, like my friends have talked about, that this will make you feel great. And with the holidays coming up, you have the perfect reason not only to get it done now because you can give it as a gift, but also if we get it done in enough time, you'll be able to watch it over the holidays with your family.

Vance Crowe [00:05:49] Alright, enough about Legacy Interviews. If you're interested, go to Legacy Interviews dot com or call the number in the show notes below. Alright, without further ado, let's head to this powerful interview with my good friend, Jason Bockman. Jason Bockman, welcome back to the podcast.

Jason Bockman [00:06:07] Glad to be here. Dude. Good to be with you,

Vance Crowe [00:06:08] Dude. You're looking huge.

Jason Bockman [00:06:10] Yeah, I, I don't know, I swear everybody's been telling me lately like, dude, you're huge, Jack, look like a spartan, whatever. And I, I trained for an Ironman like a couple years ago, and I don't know if that like changed my body. I've been like staying on some of that stuff. But like my body, I don't know. I've been taking testosterone for a few years, but not like anything crazy. Not like I'm juiced up, but yeah, I'm big and strong

Vance Crowe [00:06:35] When you got on testosterone. Yeah. Do you feel like it changed the way you thought about things? Because I think about it as being like, you could give yourself the testosterone of an 18-year-old, but isn't that why an 18-year-old makes bad decisions?

Jason Bockman [00:06:51] I don't know that it, like, at the time in my life when I started doing it, I was having like panic attacks and shit all the time. And like before this point, you know, I don't know that it ever really changed, like the, like the baseline of the way I thought and stuff. And those things don't have, I think some of that stuff was circumstantial, but like outside, I, I, I, I slept better, right? Like, which I, I didn't sleep for like, you know, 20 years. Like, I'd sleep two, three hours a night, sometimes, like no sleep three days at a time. And then, I don't know, like I feel like I regulated some, some of that, I don't know how much of that is placebo or whatever, but I've like, or just I'm older and so I'm sleeping better. And, but I, there was some time, I'll say this, so this isn't, you know, argue is a steroids, whatever, I don't know. I'm sure it is. I don't know the definition of steroids, what I'm taking testosterone, right? There was a point where I didn't know that I was taking steroids. Like in my twenties, my friend was like, here, dude, these are whatever. He was just, we were just taking these pills right? And working out. And I gained like 30 pounds in a, in like a month and a half. And my bench press went from like 180 5 to three 15, right? And I was like, I was like, dude, I had a, an FJ 40 at the time, a 1972 FJ 40. It didn't have any top sides, nothing. Not even seat belts, you know? And I was driving with these two girls and this guy cut me off and I leaned out of the car and what I was thinking is I was gonna grab his bumper and flip his car over.

Jason Bockman [00:08:22] This is what came to my mind. And I was like, and the girls were like, terrified. And I was like, yo, what? I just thought I could flip a car, you know? And I was like, dude, what is this? So he's like, well, this is, it's called trend. This is steroids. I was like, what? And dude, I, I got, I got off it like immediately. And then like, my dick didn't work for like eight months. And I was like, this is horrible. I'm never doing that again. I didn't know. I hon I, God's honest, I thought I was taking like a men's multivitamin.

Vance Crowe [00:08:54] Well, I mean, I don't, I mean, steroids, that's like very clear. Hey, you learn and dare hey man, these, all these bad things will happen. But TRT has been something that's grown and grown and grown. I meant, you know, we're at the age where there are a lot of men that are like starting to do it. Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:09:08] And

Vance Crowe [00:09:08] My experience has been, the two people that I knew that got on it, their risk tolerance went way up. Really to the degree that you're like, hold up. Why are we making these risky decisions? We're not, you know, 18 anymore. We don't have to be. And, you know, so I drew those two points to be a straight line, but it may not be. Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:09:26] It hasn't been my experience. Yeah. The, I did, I was listening to this story on NPR about somebody transition, and this girl said that she got on testosterone to transition and started having like, she's like, I hate that I'm even saying this out loud, but like, he or she, whatever, like, I started to have like taking an interest in science and math, right? I don't know. And they were like, I think there's something to that anyways.

Vance Crowe [00:09:51] Who knows? You know, like the human mind is so crazy complicated. I, I've, as I've started to learn more and more about nutrition, every time I get to this new level and I'm like, ah, now I understand. Yeah. You know, macros, oh, now I understand proteins, carbs, and fats. But every time I'm like, oh wait, I, I found this new thing out that completely obliterates everything. Yeah. I thought I knew. And so really

Jason Bockman [00:10:11] There was three, three ingredients in those macros and just need to be one ingredient and yeah, it needs to be from Scandinavia, whatever. There's always like deeper stuff with that. I'm like, drink a bunch of water, keep your body moving. Don't eat trash. Well,

Vance Crowe [00:10:24] You're around donuts all the time. Yeah. How do you keep yourself from just inhaling donuts and sugar?

Jason Bockman [00:10:29] When I eat 'em, I go bananas, right? I'm like, I'm going to eat some donuts that I, I'll eat 12. Like instantly. Like, and I don't know, I just, I love sweets and stuff and so, but I just, I know that for me, being around it all the time, it's not worth it. Like to go hammer time.

Vance Crowe [00:10:49] Yeah. I'm like such an on off switch, right? Like, it's really hard for me to have two drinks, but it's very easy for me to have zero drinks. Right. It's really easy for me to have no donuts. It's very hard for me to have one donut. So I only do like all or nothing. Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:11:04] That's what I do when I go on trips. I go hammer time. I was all over California this summer with my kids. I went on a bunch of trips, but the, I was going to this bakery every day spending like 60 bucks and it was Fire Arsal Bakery in San Francisco. It was so good. And I would eat, like, literally I'd probably eat like eight chocolate croissants and like a couple of almond croissants. And I go Hamburg, my kids are like, dad, what are you doing? And I'm like, this is what I do on vacation. Some people, you know, drink and do blow. I go for croissants. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:11:37] My wife and I call it carb ca where you're just like, I can just eat whatever carbs I want. We,

Jason Bockman [00:11:41] I'm on vacation. Yeah. Well,

Vance Crowe [00:11:43] I, I, I got to the point with carbs 'cause I, I will eat, you know, pizza to no end. If you give me, if there's a pint or whatever, a gallon of ice cream in my freezer, I will eat the whole thing. Oh yeah. Until it's all gone. And I think I was like pre-diabetic. I think I had like gotten to the point where it was like I would have this stuff and then I'd be like 45 minutes later I'd be asleep on the couch and my kids would be like, slap me on the face, being like, wake up and play with us daddy. And so I had to make some, some pretty wild changes. Yeah,

Jason Bockman [00:12:12] I get it. I, I'm that way with life in general, doesn't matter really what the thing is.

Vance Crowe [00:12:18] So you, since we last spoke, you've now put up this totally different restaurant that's serving the late night community.

Jason Bockman [00:12:25] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:12:26] I've seen you all over the news people talking about it, but what's it really like behind the scenes?

Jason Bockman [00:12:32] It's cool. I have a partner in it named Nate, and he's like, he does, you know, a lot of the day-to-day stuff, it's going really well. We open the first store is like bananas. Like if you figure like a restaurant has like 30 tables and they try to turn those tables during dinner like two and a half times. Right. So what is that? 75 tables? Right? So you would have what's called a check, 75 checks. And we're doing like, you know, between three and 400 checks a night. Whoa. Which is insane, right? So like a busy restaurant would do a hundred and we're bananas. We opened a second location and it's going well. It's not like the first location, but there's like some thing, you know, it's not that old of a restaurant. And so there's some things that we're doing to change it. And I don't know, it's like, it's fun, it's interesting, it's cool, it's invigorating and I'm like, I want to keep pushing it. So it's interesting.

Vance Crowe [00:13:30] I found myself saying something about you the other day. I was telling Sean the editor, Hey, my buddy Jason Bockman's coming in, we're gonna do a podcast. And I said something and as soon as I said it, I was like, oh,

Jason Bockman [00:13:39] I

Vance Crowe [00:13:39] Regret saying that. I was like, man, everything Jason touches turns to gold. And the reason I regret it is because it like totally diminishes whatever it is that you do to make things work. But it does, I will say, seem easy that everything you do is just like, oh, that one worked. Oh, this other thing Jason did worked. Is it like that?

Jason Bockman [00:13:59] Yes and

Vance Crowe [00:13:59] No.

Jason Bockman [00:14:00] I mean, I think about this, I'm like, you know, I've been doing this in some capacity for like 25 years. So when we, like, when I was like, we're gonna do this concept, it was easy. It was like I didn't need to make as many mistakes, right? So I know which mistakes to avoid. And so I'm still learning some things on how to be better. I will always will be. But it, I know upfront if I do these things, this is the outcome. So it seems easier now. It is easier for me.

Vance Crowe [00:14:28] Point what were the mistakes that you were hard to learn?

Jason Bockman [00:14:31] Oh, being arrogant. Get a little bit of success and think like you're the man. And then like, start shitting on the people that support you. You know what I mean? Like, you need me, I don't need you. Like, no, I'm like, you know, I work for every customer, you know, you are my boss. You know, some stuff with marketing, staying out of like, during, like, I have a friend who owns like a bunch of restaurants here, right? And, and like when political things are going on, it seemed like all these people are commenting on 'em with stuff. And these people are like, cheeseburger, we got a cheeseburger. You want this cheeseburger? You know what I mean? Like President Trump assassination attempt. And people are like, good, fuck 'em. People, some people are like, man, we need to stand behind Trump. And they're like, we got a cheeseburger. You know? And, and I was like, what is the deal with that? Like, some people would like say things to them, but like so rarely, like, you know, why don't you get behind some of these, these, these pushes are, you know, social issues. And they're like, we have cheeseburgers. That's what we do here is we sell cheeseburgers. We will sell a cheeseburger to you regardless of who you vote for, what you look like, who you like to have sex with. We have cheeseburgers. And I like used to mix those two. And I think that when I get behind personal social issues in my business life, I alienate my customer base. You know? So that was like a, that was a big one.

Jason Bockman [00:16:03] And there was a big mishap that happened with me. I mean, it was all over the news. Like Tucker Carlson tried to interview me. I don't know if it, like, it was, it was crazy. No. What happened, dude, the, it was in, I, I thought about this last night and I forgot about it. Like, we had a store in Columbia. It was like, where like a lot of like the Black Lives Matter stuff really jumped off. And you know, I have a furniture company also, so I get like these reports of like incoming student numbers, right? So I know to tell them how, you know, like, you should be planning for this many new mattresses, dorm pieces, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you know, you bought these 400 couches five years ago with this many people coming in, you probably are gonna need to replace, you know, half of them. So the store already wasn't doing the best. And then I get this report saying there's 45% less returning students. And I was like, shit, if it's not going well right now on our customer base is these people and it's cut in half. Now it's our most expensive store. Probably best to just cut and run, you know? And so I made this post and the thing that I messed up, I just was walking into a meeting and I said, get out of Columbia, right? And the image that popped up was this girl, oh, I remember this. Get out. She was, and you clearly was saying, get out. And I was like, oh, perfect. Right? So I posted that picture and I said, Hey, you know, not working out here. Like, thank you guys for these two years or whatever. We're focusing our efforts on different stores. And we were in the middle of like starting to open stores in Mexico. And so I was like, I'll just use, I need to use this energy over here, you know, no big deal.

Jason Bockman [00:17:36] I went in, dude, and I got out of this, this meeting that I was in and my phone was, I turned the phone off, my phone was going bananas. And I was like, what is happening here? And it was like, you know, you raised this piece of shit, like, all this like crazy. And I was like, yeah, what? And then it was spiral. Like, it was crazy. I was liking everyone's comments, every person's comment just 'cause like I couldn't get to 'em. There were so many, but I wanted to let them know. Like I,

Vance Crowe [00:18:05] I saw that, I

Jason Bockman [00:18:06] Saw that, I saw that. So every comment I liked, right? And, and then it was like screenshots taken of the likes and it was like, you know, owner Jason Bockman cuddles up with extreme supremacists or whatever it was. And

Vance Crowe [00:18:23] This was the journalism school, whatever, like doing that circle and the woman, you know, being like, get out of here. Was that the image you used?

Jason Bockman [00:18:31] I just, I, my hand to God, dude, I'm not this inflammatory dude. Lemme shake some stuff to piss some people off. I'm just not that dude. I thought I was like, oh, perfect picture. You know what I'm saying? This is perfect. And like it's recognizable and I didn't know, you know, it was so charged. And, but yeah, I like these PR people were like, dude, you need to like, what, what I wanted to do is like, take a video of me being like, Hey man, this is what happened. You know? I didn't mean to offend anybody. I picked this picture 'cause I thought it was a perfect picture. If I offend people, I'm sorry. Like, I love you, I like whatever. And they were like, do not, do not do that. You need to make an apology immediately and blah, blah, blah, blah. So I wrote this apology and when I wrote the apology, people were like, you know, like, not good enough. Kill yourself. Like straight up. And then there were some people that were like, I will never support your business because you apologize to those people, you know? And I was like, man, I was in a hole. I felt so alone, dude. It sucked that, that was like, that sucked. I, I realized last night, 'cause somebody told me about this thing that we were talking about earlier that like, I realized last night, 'cause somebody told me what was happening here locally with somebody who's like a, you know, a very visible figure in St. Louis. And that it doesn't sting me anymore. But like until recently, it still was like a pain point for me that like, man, I'm not that dude. And I wish it wasn't taken that way and I wish that I could like go back, but now at this point, it just doesn't matter.

Jason Bockman [00:20:03] I think the person who I am and the person who I've consistently been has erased any of that or diminished like the negative repercussions of it. It's

Vance Crowe [00:20:14] Just wild, right? Like, you, you say things if you're on camera enough or you're trying to do enough in social media, if you're trying to ride that wave, I mean, if you're doing anything of substance, you are going to get burned. Like a couple weeks ago I was on this podcast called Farm4Profit, and I was just saying, Hey, I think when we were in school in the nineties, we were being propagandized, that having children meant the end of your life and the way that the clip was cut and the way I said it, right? There were all these women that came outta nowhere to be like, look at this misogynist saying that, you know, and like took what I had said and turned it and you, and like, as I watched the clips, I'm like,

Jason Bockman [00:20:54] Well, you

Vance Crowe [00:20:54] Know, you probably could take it that way. That's not what I meant.

Jason Bockman [00:20:57] But

Vance Crowe [00:20:58] People being so angry right? Trying to spike up that attention. And you're like, but that's not me. And I'm pretty sure if you and I were sitting down and having a conversation, you would probably agree with what I'm saying here, but you're like either getting your jollies or like e expressing some kinda, I don't know, extreme emotion, but it, it's wild. Like I'm 42 years old and I'm sitting there being hurt by what some woman, you know, 500 miles away said,

Jason Bockman [00:21:24] Right, I get it because you like what you do. Right? And it's important to you. Like, so I do think about like, yeah, it's not, I'll think about people slamming McDonald's or Jack in the Box or Walmart or whatever it is, and I'm like, man, that's a real dude on the end of that, that's responding to all that stuff. Oh,

Vance Crowe [00:21:42] I knew the whole team that did the social media for Monsanto.

Jason Bockman [00:21:45] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:21:46] Imagine what that was like. Oh,

Jason Bockman [00:21:47] Forget about it.

Vance Crowe [00:21:48] Right? Where people are showing you like dead babies and, you know, poisoned people. Like the worst images you can imagine. People are bots in a lot, in a lot of cases, but some guy has to sit there. And the guy that I knew for most of the time I was there, his name was Wes, he's like the nicest quietest, like, you know, Hey, I just want to do some social media just every single day having a hell of a time with what he saw.

Jason Bockman [00:22:14] I'm gonna go get a Slurpee after work. And that's just a real dude. Right? It's crazy that we forget that stuff. It's easy to, it's easy to like dehumanize. I've, I've, I've thought this like, as I've gotten, like, I don't, I, part of getting older is getting a little set in your ways. Right? And I like try to fight that by like staying open and listening to like, you know, more people's opinions. And you know, if I listen to a podcast, I try to listen to like the counterpoint of the podcast, you know what I mean? Like if it's politically charged or whatever. And it's, it's easy to start like disassociating from people. I feel like.

Vance Crowe [00:22:48] Yeah. I think that we probably talked about this before. I pretty much have quit trying to do the, I'm gonna do left and right. I, I don't, I'm just like, I don't have enough time, so I just listen to what makes you the most comfortable. Right?

Jason Bockman [00:23:00] And

Vance Crowe [00:23:00] Then you wake up six months in and you're like, I wonder if like the other side has any idea that this is what I think of them or they think of me like I I'm certain that, and now I know that I have a giant bubble around me and I only see what's inside of it. Yeah. But the effort and energy and value of trying to find the other side seems insurmountable when you have a 2-year-old and a 4-year-old and a business and a wife and a

Jason Bockman [00:23:27] Yeah, I'm deciding you're trying to get a slurpee after work is what it comes down to, right. Like, but like people will put Yeah. Anyways, like I think everybody understands what we're talking about and like everybody can relate to that for sure. I don't know something. Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:23:41] I heard a line the other day. I, I wonder how this strikes you. It is wisdom is knowledge that doesn't change.

Jason Bockman [00:23:52] Hmm. I think that might be, you know, why, why I opened successful businesses, right. I've learned stuff, you know what I mean? Like hard learned lessons that I know that, you know, regardless of what's going on or what trends there are, these things always work. And it probably comes back to like very basic, you know, religious text stuff, be good to people, work hard. I don't know, wisdom is knowledge that doesn't change. Yeah, for sure. No, I think there's some basic things that I adhere to that probably everybody does. You know what I mean? Good or bad. Like wisdom doesn't mean it has to be good. I don't know.

Vance Crowe [00:24:40] Oh, interesting. Yeah. Wow. I guess put in that case, if it's knowledge that doesn't change, the dark side is the same thing,

Jason Bockman [00:24:45] Right? It has to be.

Vance Crowe [00:24:47] Have you seen a rise in religion recently?

Jason Bockman [00:24:50] Yeah. Which is wild. I have

Vance Crowe [00:24:53] Where do you see it?

Jason Bockman [00:24:55] It's, excuse me, with younger people bible studies and just people like in their like clothing and stuff. Like I see like, you know, religious text on clothing a lot now. And I'll ask people, you know, one of the first questions, not first questions, but like, when I get to know somebody, I'm asking if they believe in God. And it's usually people around like my age and stuff. And it just seems like so many more people are like involved in like, you know, church or temple or their, whatever the respective religion is. But I think like a lot of young people, there's like less drinking, right? There's less like sex now premarital or whatever. There's like less young people having sex, good or bad. I don't know. But I feel like, you know, people are always looking for something and it seems like there's been in society such a swing away from religion that like the rebellious thing is to be religious.

Vance Crowe [00:25:55] Yeah. I thought about that the other day that like, and that it's now within the Overton window for somebody to, to wear clothes that, that have a religious thing on it. And it's not like, oh, that's the weirdo that's like, oh, that's the guy that doesn't care what people think of him, but Right. That wasn't the case a few years ago. It doesn't seem like

Jason Bockman [00:26:13] I agree completely. Yeah. And the, it's funny that I still like, and I don't, you know, whatever this is, I need to apologize for it. I'm still, I'm like,

Vance Crowe [00:26:22] Oh,

Jason Bockman [00:26:23] Kind of weird, man. This is, that's weird to me. I don't know.

Vance Crowe [00:26:27] Do you believe in God?

Jason Bockman [00:26:28] Yeah. I believe there's a God, it's not like a, like I do, I pray every day. I actually do. Here I have something for you.

Vance Crowe [00:26:37] Oh,

Jason Bockman [00:26:38] This is your book back.

Vance Crowe [00:26:40] Oh

Jason Bockman [00:26:40] Wow. Yeah. I've had it for a couple years. I've read it several times and it's like, and I really appreciate it. This is only

Vance Crowe [00:26:47] An Irish boy by Horatio Alger. So my, my mentor Pete was a Horatio Alger orphan. And so he always talked about that. I I gave you this book like years ago. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:26:58] And I, I was in Meine this year, a couple months ago, and there was a, there was a, a building, right? There was all these Botero statues, and I was talking about, like, I went and saw Pete in New York and I opened the door, it's like crazy, but like, he had all these Botero paintings and I was like, is that, and I didn't, I couldn't pronounce the guy's name, but he was like, oh my friend, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he said his name and I was like, he had all these original paintings from Botero.

Vance Crowe [00:27:27] Oh, that's right. You went to see Pete, didn't

Jason Bockman [00:27:30] You? Yeah. And it was awesome. He was awesome. He was so cool. And like

Vance Crowe [00:27:37] I had forgotten that

Jason Bockman [00:27:38] It was like, I went, it was like, you know, when Neo goes and talks to the Oracle?

Vance Crowe [00:27:42] Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:27:42] He seemed that way to me, man. That dude was so interesting. But that, yeah. So anyways, I was in Columbia and I saw, and we get back to that, whatever, but I saw Botero and then there was in this building that I guess used to be the capital building. Now it's an art museum. And there was a Horatio Alger plaque, and I think, I can't remember if it was like the building was dedicated to him or dedicated to Botero, but then there was like this long, I I think he was, I think Botero might have been one of the recipients of the Horatio Alger award.

Vance Crowe [00:28:19] Oh, that would make sense. Yeah. And

Jason Bockman [00:28:21] I was like, oh, that's why they were homies.

Vance Crowe [00:28:23] Yeah. He, I mean he used to talk about, I we're not pronouncing that correctly, but right now, off the top of my head, I can't think of it. He's the guy that makes the oversized statues right of, of, at the time they were grotesquely fat and now you look at em and they're, you know, kind of just a

Jason Bockman [00:28:35] Little

Vance Crowe [00:28:35] Normal. But yeah, th that's Pete was the one that introduced me to art. I was a total like, ah, art doesn't matter. That's just for those other people. And he opened up a whole world to me. Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:28:48] I opened, he, he knocked, I, he knocked, I knocked on his door, one World United Nations Plaza. I was like, what a badass address this dude

Vance Crowe [00:29:00] Has, right.

Jason Bockman [00:29:01] Opened the door. He's like, good evening, Jason, how are you? I had some candies for him and he started laughing and, and then he handed me some candies, like almost the same box of, of chocolates, right. And then, so he was standing in my way of my line of sight and he moved. And this painting in his entryway was

Vance Crowe [00:29:20] The man, the man with the apple.

Jason Bockman [00:29:21] The man with the apple. And I was like, I'm looking at, I'm like, yo, this is a real Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:29:27] Magritte. Yeah, this

Jason Bockman [00:29:28] Is, I've never seen anything like this outside of, I mean, including art museums. I've been to some like cool art museums. So I was like, this is crazy. And I was like, this this is, and is this on his table, on his dining table? I'm like, is this, he's like, that's a, that's a Remington whatever the sculpture. I was like, this motherfucker is a, like the and most interesting person I've ever met in my life.

Vance Crowe [00:29:50] Oh man, I can't tell you. This makes me so happy to hear. Yeah, I'm, I'm so glad that that connection happened because yeah, it's impossible for me to describe for people and I try as much as I can to like, share all the things that he taught me. Because like, you're right, I got to go sit with the oracle for

Jason Bockman [00:30:08] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:30:09] 10, 15 years or something like that, how much it changed my life. So I'm, he was the man, I'm so glad you he loved

Jason Bockman [00:30:13] You so much, dude.

Vance Crowe [00:30:14] You make me cry. Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:30:15] I got this other book for you speaking about God here, I wanna give this to you for a few years. It's been pivotal in my life.

Vance Crowe [00:30:21] Okay.

Jason Bockman [00:30:22] As you can see, it's all beat up around the calendar with Emmet Fox. So like, Emmet Fox, if you're not familiar with him, was CS Lewis. They were like best friends and they were like, early on, like Christian, they, they were thinking way outside of the box with Christianity. And so he's written these books that are like very dense and they break 'em down into daily readings. And so you end up, during reading that book will read like six of these books. And there's like, been some real pivotal stuff that I've like incorporated into my life. Like, there's something in there, like these people, he was just like a psychiatrist also. And so he is religious, but he was like leading like this thought revolution in the early 19 hundreds. And, and so like a guy comes to him who owns a grocery store chain, right? And it's a small, small store, and like this big box company moves in and he comes to him like, I'm ruined, you know, the sort, he's like, no, pray for their success. And he's like, what are you talking about? Like, if they're successful, I'm gonna be smashed. You know? And you'll come to that reading I'm sure at some point. But he talks about like, you know, about the abundance in life and if I am thinking I want someone to fail, it invites, it opens the door for failure into my life. But if I'm like, I want you to be successful, then I'm inviting that stuff also. So I've done that. Like, and this guy who was like a mentor to me still is awesome guy. He reminds me a lot of Pete, the older dude who's an artist and like awesome guy.

Jason Bockman [00:32:00] I had a hot dog stand and this hot dog store was opening, you know what I mean? And he was like, pray for that. I'm like, fuck, are you talking about Mike? Like I'm, I won't be able to eat. And he gave me that book and I read it for a while. So it's, it's cool. And it goes like daily. So

Vance Crowe [00:32:15] Thank you man. Yeah, I will, I will read it and we will, we'll talk about it after. Cool. Thanks man.

Jason Bockman [00:32:19] Yeah, dude, you got it.

Vance Crowe [00:32:21] So on the God conversation, yeah. I find this to be very stressful for me to talk about because I am very comfortable changing my view on this all the time. You know, like some days I'm like, nah man, we're just a speck of dust in the infinite universe that nothing matters. And, and then other times I'm like, how could you possibly be a speck of dust? Where did that speck of dust come from? Yeah. But imagining something could be above the universe, looking down on all of it is like, so far outside of my spectrum that I can't understand it. And I don't find solace in listening to ministers or priests or pastors or rabbis. In fact, I sit there arguing relentlessly with them because I'm so averse to like, let's all gather up and do a movement. Like it, it just doesn't fit me. Right. So anyway, that's, that's, you know what I,

Jason Bockman [00:33:14] I do not like, like cool, tag it up young preachers, yo, this is what we're gonna do, guy. I was bad too. I smoked cigarettes once. I'm like, I, you know, I, I'm not Catholic, but it's like, I went to Catholic church several times and I'm like, man, it's been said this way for thousands of years. And that, that's like the wisdom of his knowledge. It doesn't change. I'm like, these people are still saying the same thing. I do think like, people who are like extremely religious, it like simplifies life a lot. Like I don't need to like go, you know, build a thing today to be successful. I just need to glorify God. And I think about some of that stuff and sometimes like, I'm like, man, those people are dumb. But then it seems like those people are successful. And it,

Vance Crowe [00:33:55] I mean, more than once I have taken things I learned while growing up in the Catholic church and applied them to my life. Like, it's very easy to ask yourself, does this bring me closer to God? Or whatever that image is, or further away. And if it takes you further away, then probably don't want to do it. Like, like,

Jason Bockman [00:34:12] Right.

Vance Crowe [00:34:12] And that's a pretty good heuristic. Like the, I don't think that heuristic is gonna lead you down a path of that, you know, ends your marriage or destroys your business. It's gonna take you down a path where things get better. And so in that regard, I'm like, well then I'm pretty foolish not to believe in God.

Jason Bockman [00:34:26] But

Vance Crowe [00:34:26] At the same time, all the things that just get packed on and onto religion and, and faith makes it, it's just hard for me.

Jason Bockman [00:34:35] Yeah. I like it. I, I talk to my kids. This is what I do with my kids at night. Tell me something you're proud, you know, that you're grateful for today. Some what you helped somebody else and something you're proud of, like grateful for, proud of, and did help. Right. And so, like, that's basically prayer, right?

Vance Crowe [00:34:54] Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:34:55] Is saying those things out loud. And so I'm trying to lead them to like a, a religious life without, you know, religion. Just a and a a a

Vance Crowe [00:35:06] Foundation.

Jason Bockman [00:35:07] A foundation and a relationship. Saying something out loud to something that's bigger than you. And like, I'll, I'll tell I'll, 'cause sometimes I'm like, God, I need some fucking help here. You know? And like my kids are like talking about like how I pray and like I pray I say, you know, help me be the man you'd have me be is basically like the only prayer that I say. Right? And then sometimes when it's real thick I'll say that, like, I need some fucking help, you know? And my son was like, you cuss at God? I'm like, yeah, God is like my friend, you know? And like I cuss with my friends, so there's not like, I used to think, you know, that like, God hated me, you know? 'cause my life was so bad, you know? I'm like, no matter what, I try how, you know, like life is gonna shit on me and God picks certain people and doesn't pick others. You know? I just, I've in my life, that's just not true. I do think that there's like something like between us all around us and above us that wants good for us. And I like started, like there's this thing that I was reading for a while and it talks about like, you know, the goal is to become like that, to recognize that our parents are instruments of our existence and that God is our true father, right? And then we become our own loving parents as I grow into adulthood, right? And like, that just brought me some comfort, you know, like, I think you can be a man and still feel like a child, you know? And look for other people to like correct things in your life.

Jason Bockman [00:36:40] And I'm like, I'm my parent. And something happened, like I used to, I don't know if you do this, but, you know, meeting somebody and I'm like, Hey, what I, I say something and I'm like, why? Why did you say it that way? You know what I mean? And be thinking about it for like weeks, you know, and see that person again. You're like, oh, I fucking talked about hot wheels with that guy. You know what I mean? But like, there was something happened in my life that was like, as I started trying to go down this path, like something happened that was truly embarrassing that I really messed up, you know? And like there was this, I had this thought and I'm like, okay, I need to be my own parent here. And what would I say to like my kid? And I was just like, I understand why you did that, dude, let's not do that again. Okay bud. It's all good. And I, and I responded to myself saying like, alright, thanks.

Vance Crowe [00:37:25] I, when you become a parent, the, like, for me, I always viewed it as before I was a parent, that my kids were like mine, I'm in charge. Right? And now I realize like they have entrusted themselves to me for 18, 20 years to take care of them and to guide them. But they are entirely their own person. Yes.

Jason Bockman [00:37:47] And

Vance Crowe [00:37:47] That they're not mine. I don't own them. I'm responsible for them. Anything that happens to them that's within my spectrum of control I have to be on top of. But like, when my daughter does something to be in trouble, it it now it used to be like, oh, a parent, you know, you get 'em in trouble 'cause that's what you do. I don't, I don't have a framework for it. And now it's like, what is the way I can discipline her so that she understands what happened and doesn't want to do it again, not a punishment, because I need to extract, you know, something. Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:38:17] Because

Vance Crowe [00:38:17] She did bad make

Jason Bockman [00:38:18] You shame, right?

Vance Crowe [00:38:18] Yeah. And it's, it, you, I couldn't have known this perspective, but now it's like, I understand now why it's difficult to discipline your kids as an adult because you're not trying to punish them. You're trying to get them to learn.

Jason Bockman [00:38:34] Yeah. And I've messed up and punishment because I'm upset. Right. I I point on what you're saying. Like they are not a blank slate. Right. My, I used to think that like, kids are a blank slate and you download all your like, morals and values and thoughts and ambitions and, and and, and, and, and talents onto them. They have their own thing. Like my kids are, you know, similar to me, but like they're their own individuals and they see a different path than I do. And I know now, I mean, me and my son, my, both of my kids are smarter than me. I know that for sure. Like, they have higher IQs, they understand things quicker and like in different ways than I do. And I think I, my, I I know like they're way more intelligent than I am and I'm not smarter than my kids. So sometimes I really like, Hey, can you help me with this? And it's cool to have a different perspective on stuff, but I've like, definitely like punished them. Like it, like they could do the same thing one day and depending on where I am in life, you know, what's going on with me, I'll treat them different. Then the, the next day, I dunno, my kid yesterday, my son, he got upset. He kicked the ball inside the house. He's like, he was just, he's been like having a temper lately, right? I'm like, I remember like one day I, I grabbed him, I'm like, what are you doing? Why are you acting like this? And he's like, I don't know. And man, I remember that, you know, I was much older than him, like doing crazy shit. And like, I did not know why, you know, he's not old enough to process that stuff yet.

Jason Bockman [00:40:05] But then the next day, like, and then he like felt shame that I was like upset and all this. And you know, he was like, I hate you and whatever, all this stuff and the next, and I was like, man, I don't like the, and I talked to him, I said, I don't like the way that happened. I don't like the way I responded and I don't like the way you acted either, are you okay? You know? And like, you know, and I said like, if you don't wanna talk right now, that's fine, but whenever you're ready to tell me about how the way you feel, I'm here to listen and I'm concerned for you. Right. Love you. You know that I love you. Right? Yeah. Cool. Have a good day. And the yesterday, something similar happened and he, and he got mad, kicked the ball at this glass door, think, you know, it didn't break. And I was just like, I had that like, well up in me, you know, like snatch him, you know? And I just said like, Hey man, it's okay to be angry. Everybody gets angry. It's not okay to act like that. It's not okay to like, you know, break stuff around you because you're angry. You doing all right, man. You know? And what was like several hours of like, reparations right before turned into like, it condensed into like 15 seconds and was like, I love you. And he didn't need to walk away feeling bad about what happened.

Vance Crowe [00:41:20] I love that man. Yeah. I, my, my daughter is four and like, her verbal ability is just off the charts for four year olds. Mm. It's just truly incredible. And it prompts me to think that she is much older than she really is. Yeah. So like, I don't always, I'm not always like, it's like the boy that's, you know, taller or bigger, right. That gets treated way older. And like it has expectations. Same thing with her. And what she does is she knows there's words around the house that we just don't want her to use. I just don't think they're very ladylike. I don't think they help, you know, endear her to other people. But I found that she would use these all the time. And I was going insane. Like, why are you saying poop? Why are you yelling this around the house? I hate it. It's hard for me to even say that word here.

Jason Bockman [00:42:01] Okay.

Vance Crowe [00:42:01] And I heard a line that really helped me, and it was, children cannot distinguish between attention and love. And so it is the same thing to them. So if they're not getting love and affection, they are going to seek out attention. And they are not able to, to determine between the two.

Jason Bockman [00:42:19] Have you heard this? If we do not spoonfeed our children love, they will learn to lick it from a knife.

Vance Crowe [00:42:27] Wow. That's, that's even, it's a little more harsh, but I'm

Jason Bockman [00:42:31] Like, but they will learn. I, yeah, I think that's what it says that that's, that's what the saying. I'm like, it sums up what you're, they'll get it somewhere else, right. Saying crazy words, acting wild, you know, like, yeah. If I'm not like giving them the attention, you know, and also I'm like, man, also I'm not raising a child. I'm raising a man. You know what I mean?

Vance Crowe [00:42:53] Yeah. I have two girls and that's been something to figure out. Like animal. Animal. Yeah. One of the hardest things for me, I, like last night, I have tremendous benefit that two nights a week I could look at it as a terrible thing or great thing is that I go pick the girls up and we don't want the girls sitting at their school for any longer than they have to be. So I have to leave work a lot earlier

Jason Bockman [00:43:12] Than

Vance Crowe [00:43:13] I want to. And I got a lot of stuff to do. And, but if I can embrace it and be like, well, I'm here, I'm gonna make 'em dinner and I'm gonna try and find a way to interact with them. But the hardest thing for me is I am so tired at the end of the day that my daughter wanting me to chase her or wanting me to dance with her, I'm like, I want to, but like, can't, can't we just do this later when I have more energy?

Jason Bockman [00:43:37] But

Vance Crowe [00:43:37] I know this flower blooms only one time. Yes. And so it's like, get your ass out that chair. You're not gonna be happy that you were flipping through YouTube shorts instead of playing with your girl. But

Jason Bockman [00:43:48] I also have some grace with myself because I'll do the same thing. I'm like, if I don't go throw the ball one time, I'm like, you know, you piece of shit. Like, you should have been, you know, you should have been doing that. And I think that it's normal. Like, man, imagine I, I don't know, I can talk about this stuff forever. Being a, being a, being a dad. And I do think, like, I don't know if this is like inherent in me, but I feel like it comes easy to me when people complain about their kids. I'm like, how could you, you know, like this is the, there's nothing better than this. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:44:24] There's nothing that's more interesting or engaging or worth your attention after you get the kids down. Right. It's only things that you like are deriving pleasure from, but it's not more important, that's for sure.

Jason Bockman [00:44:35] I just love it. I love it all. I've never like, get me out of this or like get me away from them. One time they were going crazy in the car and I had like, I just came from like shooting rangers or something. So I had some ear muffs and I just put 'em on my, I'm like, they'll work it out. And I feel I was like, you know, spread super thin. And, but man, like I can use like gratitude as a weapon against myself sometimes, or like positive thinking as like a weapon against myself sometimes. Like, what

Vance Crowe [00:44:59] Do you mean?

Jason Bockman [00:45:00] Like, you should be grateful. Why aren't you grateful that your kids wanna play with you? You know? Oh, And that does nothing good for me. I'm like, man, I'm tired. Like, excuse me, there was something last week I was like, man, I am exhausted. You know? And like, I just like turned something on and laid down for a minute and I could say, you know, I wasted that time. And I, I would do that in the past, but like, I'm also a, a human. And I tell, I'm like, open with them about that. Like, we had a conversation, you know, I'm single and they found out that I was like talking to some girl, you know, and he was very upset about it. Like, my kids are like, and I talked to him. It was, it was, I'll tell the whole story, whatever. So I'm talking to my son and my daughter and they're asking these questions that are super personal. You know, are you kissing her? Are you having sex? Are you wearing a condom? You know what I mean? Like all this stuff. 'cause as soon as my kids were able to like, ask the question like, where do babies come from? I just told them, right. I'm like, you put your penis in vagina. You don't have to love the girl, it'll make a baby. So be careful where you put it. And you should be wearing, you should wear a condom. You know, a condom is a bag that goes over your penis and it keeps babies from coming in. Like,

Vance Crowe [00:46:15] How old were you when they were,

Jason Bockman [00:46:16] I mean, my daughter was going to preschool and my son was on his way to kindergarten.

Vance Crowe [00:46:21] Wow. Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:46:21] Yeah. I mean, and then they were asking, you know, like, can boys become girls? 'cause I was like, in the ether, you know what I mean? Like, and I'm like, no, like you're born a boy and that's what you are and whatever. Like, so like these questions that they ask, I try to give them real answers in ways that they can understand, you know? And sometimes it's like, you know, like we went to New York and I was like, look, when we're there, I need you to stay with me. There's a lot of people. And they're like, well somebody take us. And I was like, that's why you gotta stay with me. They're like, what? What happens when they take you? And I'm like, people kill kids, put penises in their butts, you know, like, and they're like, what? And I was like, yeah, that's what happens. You know, this. And I was, when I said it, I was like, man, should I have told him that? But I'm like, this is the reality of some of the situations, you know? Anyways, dude, my son's asking me this stuff and I, and I was like, man, I want to tell you the truth, but I don't know that it's like they're able to understand what's going on. Like, are are you afraid of something? Like, is something wrong? And he is like, like what came out of it? And I, I told him, I was like, this is uncomfortable, right? And he is like, yeah, this is weird. And I was like, have you ever had this conversation before? And he is like, I haven't. And I was like, I haven't either. I've never talked to my son before about, you know, having a girlfriend. This is my first time doing this. So like, you're gonna have to give me like, some understanding also he's nine that I don't know what I'm doing either, but I need you to understand that I love you.

Jason Bockman [00:47:55] And I never, and I can as it like, as we talked about the way that he was feeling, he was thinking, I'm gonna have a girl of a, a baby with this girl that I'm gonna love that kid more than him. I'm gonna love this girl more than him. He's afraid of her mistreating him and then me not being there for him. And he's alone, you know,

Vance Crowe [00:48:17] All totally reasonable things for him to consider actually probably a lot of foresight. Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:48:22] And so I have to like, so I tell him, and this is the God's honest, you know, you know, it's true. Like there's nothing in my life that I care more about than them. And they come first and he was like, and it was wild. Like, I'll tell you this story and it's graphic, but whatever. I'm on the, we were in California, it was awesome. We're flying back home, you know, we were there for a few weeks and we did all this crazy stuff. You know, went to Sequoia, went to, you know, we were in San Francisco, we're in LA Universal Studios, Anaheim doing all this wild stuff, you know, on the boat to Alcatraz, renting cars and driving crazy. And you know, we did all this stuff. And on the trip I said, you know, what was the best part of your trip? And he said, you know, just being in the car. They said both. They're like just being in the car with you, right?

Vance Crowe [00:49:07] Wow.

Jason Bockman [00:49:09] I'm like, man, like I feel this pressure to like do all this stuff and provide for them and like keep them entertained, but really they just want me, you know? And that's fine. I, I, I'm so appreciative that I can do all those things and expose 'em to that stuff, you know? They've been more places by the time they were five than I was, you know, almost like going into my thirties, you know, I just didn't grow up that way. Anyways, we get on this flight and it comes like, so while I'm on this trip, you know, like, anyways, like it comes up again that they think I'm dating this girl and the questions come up again, and this guy, I'm gonna try to condense this. So they said, let me get straight to it. So he, my son says, you know, would you ever, like, what if a girl, what if like a girl you marry hits us? And I was like, I would never marry anybody that would mistreat you. I've never talked to anybody that would mistreat you. And if they did, like you come first, you know? And, and then I, I was like, he asked me a question that I did not know how to answer, and I just stopped for a second. I said, God, please help me. I look to my left, there's this dude who's huge, had to play in the NFL, right? Like, massive man. And I look over and he's reading this book that says How To Tell the Truth. And I go, I'm like, Hey man, what's that book about? So my son asked me this question, God, please tell me, Hey, what's that book about? He's like, it's about like, you know how to hell tell hard truths to people in a way that they can understand them.

Jason Bockman [00:50:42] And I was like, he tell me a little more about that. And he is like, and he starts talking about like, you know, the only thing we have is our experience. And I was like, boom. Got it. Like, I don't need to ex, I can just tell you what I went through. I say to my, my son, listen man, my parents got divorced and I was 14 years old. I was 13, 14 when it happened. And my mom dated like some, some crappy people. And there was this one guy that was like physical with her. And like, he was upset. And I, I remember this story in the moment. I think it's like something that I like blocked out. My mom's upset. We lived in this like low income housing and this, this dude was, I was like, I was like, what happened? She wouldn't tell me. And then I'm like, she wouldn't tell me in the, like, she finally told me, she's like, you know, Rick, you know, hit me or shoved me or something. I was like, when is he coming over again? And I tell him, I, I'm telling, I told this story to my son when I, he's like, he's coming over to pick me up in a little bit. And I was like, when he gets here, I just need you to stay inside. And so he pulls up, I go into the parking lot. I was like, Hey man, you're not welcome here anymore. I'm like, 13, 14 years old. You're not welcome here anymore. And he's like, what? And I was like, you know, I don't want you coming around here anymore. My mom doesn't wanna talk to you. You need to leave. And he's like, fuck you. And I was like, now fuck you. He opened the door and I closed his door and he said that he was gonna like, you know, he's like, fuck you bitch. I'll slap you or whatever, spank you or something like that. And I pull up my shirt. I had a pistol, right? I was carrying a gun at that point in my life. I'm like selling drugs and wild, I lift my shirt up and hit you.

Jason Bockman [00:52:17] Like, look how you saw a ghost. You know? I was like, if you get outta this car, I'm shooting in your face leave. And he pulled off and he said, you know, he cussed at me on his way out. And I went back in the house and I'm like, Rick won't be here anymore. And my mom was like, thank you, thank you so much. You know? And I like felt like a man, you know, like I got praised for this protection, you know? But really like, it was like violence, you know? And like, and I told my son that story and I was like, now when I met Grandpa Stan, who is his step-grandfather now, I was like, I was like, so those things happened and I'll never put you in that situation. I love you. You know? And I'm like, I know that my mom was looking for like a partner and love and, and sometimes maybe she looked in the wrong places. When I met Stan, Stan had a talk with me and he said, I love your mom. She makes me happy and I think I make her happy. We don't have to be friends, but I would like us to be. I think you're a cool kid. And I, and I told him, I was like, it was all very confusing to me 'cause it was weird sharing my space with these men. But I knew, I, I'm like, I understood at that point that this guy made my mom happy and I want my mom to be happy and it had nothing to do with me. And we ended up becoming friends. And, and he said that he understood that and he started crying a few minutes later.

Jason Bockman [00:53:49] And again, I said, like, you okay? And he said, I asked him if he wanted to talk. He said he did. And I was like, whenever you're ready. You know, this has been a cool line that I use with my kids. Whenever you're ready, I wanna know how you feel. So whenever you feel comfortable talking to me, I used to pick him up from school. How was your day? They wouldn't talk. And I'd be, and I would like give him shit for it, you know? And like I learned to say like, Hey man, seems like you're not ready to talk when you are though. Lemme know. So then, you know, a week later I was like, Hey, I wanna ask you about something. He is like, I know what you're gonna say. And I was like, what's up? And he is like, wow. I was crying on the plane. I was like, yeah, I want, I wanna know. And he goes, it's just sad to me that like, you know, you could love mom and say that how much you loved her and, and now like you can love somebody else that much also. I just don't understand how that works. And I'm like, yeah man, it must be confusing and I wish I could explain it to you, but I can't.

Vance Crowe [00:54:48] Sounds like you took him as far down that path as you can. And the rest of it is 'cause

Jason Bockman [00:54:52] He doesn't have that experience yet.

Vance Crowe [00:54:53] Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:54:54] You know, he will. And I think that he'll understand then what he is missing now. But if the feeling is I love you and there's patience here, it'll get 'em to that point hopefully with like, as less scarring as possible.

Vance Crowe [00:55:11] As I hear you describing this, I think of my own orientation to try and keep my kids in the Garden of Eden for as long as possible where I'm trying to preserve their innocence as much as I can. And I come into conflict with questions like, should I tell them about Santa Claus? Not about the time I showed pistol to my mom's boyfriend. Did you tell your kids Santa Claus stories?

Jason Bockman [00:55:34] Yeah. Yeah. They still believe in Santa Claus. So like I do, me and my son, I, I, I feel like again, I'm like, I am raising adults, you know? And I don't need to be like, this past St. Patrick's Day, I was coming back from the farm, we have a big farm coming back from the farm. I put some my gold dust in the house at the, at the farm. And then I paid somebody to like go to my house and like deck the place out. There was like leprechaun footprints and all this stuff. And they went bananas for it, you know what I mean? They like loved it so much. And that like imagination, enthusiasm, and curiosity for life. I try to foster that, you know. But when they bump up against reality, it's not like I'm like, Hey man, lemme tell you about this time I pulled a gun. You know what I mean? But whenever they have questions, I try to meet them as realistically as possible where they are, you know? And what I was trying to tell him with me, you know, talking about going out to that car and like showing that dude a gun is like, I was so confused and angry. I was, you know, I was angry enough. Like, and I, I understand your fear 'cause I was afraid and this is what I did with that fear. So I try to like, I try to be, 'cause imagine like, you know, everything's great. The world is beautiful and nothing bad ever happens and then you fly the coop and reality smacks you.

Jason Bockman [00:57:11] You know, like I feel like that is harder for a kid to adjust to like, than knowing this world is real. There's good and bad. You know?

Vance Crowe [00:57:22] I mean, as I hear you talking about this, I think I'm a better father now for having heard that story. Because the truth is not you're the best parent for keeping your kid in the Garden of Eden for as long as you can. It's keep them in the Garden of Eden and then show them the path out. Because I definitely got my ass handed to me. I was naive for a significant portion of my twenties and, and probably even thirties of just like, oh, the world just works out. Because that's the way I saw it in the movies. That's the way it was presented to me. And then you, you find you encounter truly malicious people or, or, or situations where people do not have your best interests at heart and you are not prepared for it, then you get your ass kicked.

Jason Bockman [00:58:01] Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Know my son, he, he's, he's like an elite soccer player, like one of the top couple kids in the state, they rank these kids and he's always like one or two. He tried out for this team that's like big, big, big. And he made like the B team, you know? And he was like, devastated. And I was like, you know, you, you didn't make the team because like when you're in the huddle, like you're outside the huddle, not talking to the coach, you know? And he is like, I wanna quit, I'm not doing. And I was like, oh, you thought this was easy dog? You thought having like, you know, all this property, you know? 'cause I owned a bunch of crap, you know, not crap. I own stuff. I'm grateful for the things, right? I wanna talk bad about the stuff, but I, some stuff, I have a bunch of stuff. I'm like, oh, you thought this was easy? You thought like, you know, open a business, successful. You know, like, this is what, like, you're gonna learn this lesson over and over and over. And I was like, there's two things that Amanda does. He shrinks up and says, I quit. Or you square your, oof. I cried telling him, I was like, you square your shoulders up, you know, you look at it and you say, I'm gonna fucking kill you. You know? And you go get it, so you, you ready to go get it? And he is like, I am. You know? And like I'm like, those are our two options and you are gonna come to that every time as a man, you know?

Vance Crowe [00:59:19] Fuck. I mean, it happens to you when you're in your forties, right? Like,

Jason Bockman [00:59:21] Dude, I'm in the middle of it right now. I wanna run from some stuff, you know, out to shrink. I'm like, man, I'm just gonna sell everything and move away, you know?

Vance Crowe [00:59:30] Yeah. I quit. I'm just, I just can't do this anymore. Yeah. I'm, I'm tired, I'm, I'm done with this. Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:59:35] I'm

Vance Crowe [00:59:35] Gonna go do something easier. Yeah,

Jason Bockman [00:59:37] Exactly.

Vance Crowe [00:59:38] Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:59:39] And so, I don't know, I think those are the lessons that like, I try to explain to him as best as I can, you know, and before that, I knew I could see it coming that he wasn't gonna make this team because he wasn't doing what they were telling him to do. A coach doesn't want the best player, he wants the most coachable player, right? And I'm like, I'm leaving one of these tryouts, you know? And I was like, you know, Michael Jordan didn't make his high school basketball team, you know, Elon Musk like slept on top of the Tesla building for, you know, four months or whatever. Like, and who, who is Elon Musk? He's the richest man in the world. I'm like, he was like down

Vance Crowe [01:00:15] And still probably runs into all sorts of problems and things he can't solve. And

Jason Bockman [01:00:19] Who's Michael Jordan? He was one of the best basketball players in the world. Yeah. He didn't make his high school. He wasn't good enough to make his high school team.

Vance Crowe [01:00:25] Yeah. And wasn't even really that big of a deal in college. Like, they kind of knew about him, but like, what do you think about raising girls? You know how to raise a man 'cause that's what you are. But yeah,

Jason Bockman [01:00:34] No, it's different. It's like I have to, it's different and I, it's made me like a softer person and I try to meet the, like, bring up the same lessons with her. She's not asking as much. I try to like give, I try to model to her what a man is that she should look for, you know? And that's like my main thing. And I try to love her and like, I ask her, you know, I ask my son too, but like, I ask her much more often, like, you know, how did that make you feel? And like, the attention that I give her is different. The attention I give her is, you know, we get our nails done, I try to do her hair when she wants to do something with me. I'm like, yes. You know, and I mean, she asked me yesterday, like one of, I tr I, I dunno if this is answering your question, but just yesterday was at practice, my son's practice. And like, it gives us an hour and a half to like be alone together and like we play. And I was like, do you mind if I make a phone call real quick? And she's like, God, you're always on the phone. And I was like, one of my friends having a hard time. He is getting divorced, you know? And, and she's like, oh, he's sad. And I was like, yeah. I'm like, I'm just gonna call and check on him real quick. Call left a message thinking about your dog, love you. And she's like, you know, were you sad when mom and you got divorced? And I was like, man, I was, I was very sad. It's, you know, I was, I still get sad sometimes.

Jason Bockman [01:02:08] And I, and so I tried. And so she said, you know, would you be, would you still be sad if you were together? And I was like, look, I just think that like, me and your mom fought a lot and I thought that it was like a, it would be better for me and you and Blade. And I was like, about to leave the mom out of it, you know? But I was like, and your mom, you know, if you weren't like growing up around all this fighting all the time. And she's like, that makes sense. I was like, are you happy? She's like, yeah, I'm happy. And I was like, cool. I don't know if it was like, I was like, I'm just doing the best that I can with her. I, I try to put women around her. Like I try to be the model of a man and I'm like, there's like two people that watch my kids, right? Like, and that's it. I don't, like, I leave them with people that I don't know or like, and anyways, there's like two women that are awesome, moral, fun patient people. And I get jealous of the way that she talks with them.

Vance Crowe [01:03:09] Ah,

Jason Bockman [01:03:09] You know,

Vance Crowe [01:03:10] I

Jason Bockman [01:03:10] Like, she's a ba

Vance Crowe [01:03:12] Like

Jason Bockman [01:03:12] All this crap, you know? And I'm like, man, I want that with her, but I'm not a woman, you know? And like, I can't give that to her. Her mom needs to, her grandma needs to, and some of these women that she's around her friends. I don't know how to like, I don't know what it is. I haven't, I don't know. It's a different relationship. I go get my nails done with her, you know, and I take her to salons and I don't know, I just try to treat her the way that I hope the person that she picks, you know, that, that's modeled after that.

Vance Crowe [01:03:44] Yeah. And the hardest part is it's has very little to do with what you tell your daughter about what she should want in a man and has almost everything to do with like, what kind of man are you, right? Yeah. Like that, that imprinting is like you, this is the challenge of children in general. Like, they're a perfect mirror of you. And like, they don't, they don't, they don't have the filter. Like they, their love is not filtered through like, oh, is he nice or not nice or is he tired or whatever. But like what you're imprinting on what it is that they should want, what should they aspire to, what is is all in what you do.

Jason Bockman [01:04:17] Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a cool trip.

Vance Crowe [01:04:21] Well man, I know you gotta get outta here. I would talk all day about this, but thank you so much for coming. I always love going on here, dude. Awesome. This is great, man. You're the

Jason Bockman [01:04:28] Man. Thanks.