Sean Thiessen, Screen Writer and Legacy Interviews Creative Director

Sean Thiessen [00:00:00] Watch movies with your family, watch movies with your friends is a powerful thing. And so, again, we kind of created this movie to be like the Ultimate Youth Group movie. It's, it's like a, a movie that teenagers will actually want to go watch that families can go see together, like a, a church or a school would be comfortable showing. And it's a fun movie to watch with a group of people. So the more people you get to go see it, the more fun you'll have. Howdy. I'm Hannah Newin Wonder, a production lead at a soybean seed facility in central Illinois, and you're listening to the Vance Crow podcast.

Vance Crowe [00:00:39] Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Today we're gonna interview filmmaker Sean Thon. There's a little bit of a backstory to having Sean on the podcast. First of all, you probably noticed I haven't done interviews with another person for quite a while. We had a few weeks where we were trying to get caught up on so much of the work that we were doing that I decided I would just do individual things that I put together. But now that we've come back and we're doing interviews, I wanted to do one with somebody that was really special, somebody that had a point of view that you, the audience always tells me you love people that you would never encounter in your regular lives, but somebody that has a lot of interesting things to say, and that happens to be Sean. I met Sean a couple of years ago when I started Legacy Interviews. Every once in a while there'd be some kind of editing problem or some kind of video challenge that I just didn't know how to get past. And I would call Sean, who was out in LA working in the film world, and I'd get his help on some things. A few months ago, I came to the conclusion that I needed to bring the Game of Legacy Interviews up a little bit. So I invited him out for a week and I had him just do consulting. This was an amazing experience for me because Sean showed me things about the way our cameras work, the way we set things up, the way we make people feel when they're in the studio. That really revolutionized the whole business. So I did what any good businessman would do. I said, Sean, what would it take for you to come out to St. Louis and work with Legacy Interviews?

Vance Crowe [00:02:12] Now, he didn't say yes right away, but after some time, we came to the conclusion that this would be a great fit for a guy that writes movies. So you're about to watch an incredible interview with a guy that just wrote a movie that is going to be shown in theaters all across the country on October 10th. I am really excited for his movie called What Rhymes With Reason. But even more than that, I'm excited about this conversation. There's so few people in the world that can deconstruct a story, that can understand why does this story make you feel a certain way? Why do movies feel a differently than books? This conversation with Sean is one of the ones that I'm most excited about, and I'm so glad that we're back doing in-person interviews. So, we're gonna head to this interview. If you are interested in Legacy Interviews, having us sit down with your loved one to be able to tell their story, to be able to capture all of those meaningful moments, those things that really changed them, the things that they overcame and the things they're most proud of, then go to Legacy Interviews dot com to find out more. All right, without further ado, let's head to the interview with my friend Sean Thon. Sean Thon, welcome to the podcast.

Sean Thiessen [00:03:25] I'm so stoked to be here. This is cool.

Vance Crowe [00:03:28] So what is the difference between an author that writes a book and a screenwriter?

Sean Thiessen [00:03:33] Oh man. Well, I think the biggest difference there, there are a lot, but the biggest one is probably that when you're writing a book, you're creating like the final output, right? Like people are going to read the book. Nobody reads the screenplay. The screenplay is, is a document that's more like a blueprint to make a movie. So that's, that's probably the key difference. It's just like people read books and people don't read screenplays.

Vance Crowe [00:04:00] Then why does somebody ever get into doing screenplays?

Sean Thiessen [00:04:04] 'cause you love movies and, and screenplays are, so, Alfred Hitchcock has a really fun quote. He is like, the most important part of, or the three most important things in making a movie are the script, the script and the script. 'cause it really is like, that is where everything begins. And when I say that people don't read screenplays, I just mean like audiences. But for the people making the movie, the screenplay is invaluable.

Vance Crowe [00:04:27] So tell me about that. How did you even get into writing screenplays if nobody reads them?

Sean Thiessen [00:04:33] So I, I guess I've been like a storyteller, I guess my whole life really. Like when I was a little kid, you know, just playing on the playground and playing with toys and stuff, there are always these like epics unfolding around me. And I've always been a movie fan too. Like, movies are a huge point of connection for me and my family. And so we, we watch a ton of movies always have, and that storytelling, I get that love for storytelling. Started out, I want to be a comic book artist. I'm family friends with this guy. He's, his name's Javier Saltar, and he drew like ghost writer in the 1990s. I mean, he's, he's drawn everybody, but he's been a comic book artist for years and grew up around him and like, wanted to be a comic book artist who's drawing all the time. That interest evolved into animation, and then I found that animation was extremely tedious, and I was like, I don't think that this

Vance Crowe [00:05:28] Is

Sean Thiessen [00:05:28] For me. And that evolved into a love for live action film. And so I started writing scripts really as just like a means of just having something to shoot. 'cause that's, that's actually what I was more interested in, was like directing and, and shooting things. And so then I started writing stuff in high school and I really liked it, but I didn't ever feel like I knew what I was doing. I always felt like there was something missing. I was like, I'm sitting down to write this, but I don't know, it feels like I should be basing this off of something. And then whenever I got to college, I took a screenwriting course, introductory course that completely changed my life. It's like, it, it opened the world of screenwriting to me. And finally I understood like structure and the, the purpose of structure, where it comes from, and just, it was so enlightening that I fell in love with it. It's, I really, really, really enjoy it.

Vance Crowe [00:06:23] I think most people's perspective, or at least mine would be that you go to write a screenplay, you write the character's name colon, and then what they say. And maybe there's like a

Sean Thiessen [00:06:31] Line

Vance Crowe [00:06:31] Above it that says, scene, you know, a dark CD pub.

Sean Thiessen [00:06:35] Right? What

Vance Crowe [00:06:36] Else is there?

Sean Thiessen [00:06:37] No, you got it. That's pretty much it. No, I mean, really that, that is kind of like the basics of it. The actual like page that you're looking at. You have your scene heading, sometimes they call it a slug line, and it, it denotes where you are. So it starts with interior, exterior, and then where you are, and then the time of day, day or night. And these are purely like functions for producers when they're breaking down the script. Like, what, what does this scene need to be? Right? And for anyone else reading the script, like, where, what is this? And then from there, yeah, you have like your action descriptions. So that's describing like what characters are doing, what you're seeing and hearing, and then you have dialogue when characters are speaking. And that's essentially it. I mean, there's, there's supers and stuff like, like whenever you're superimposed a title or something, you know, there's, there's like little stuff that comes up here and there that deviates from that. But basically that's, that's it.

Vance Crowe [00:07:37] And so when you talk about this structure, where does that come in?

Sean Thiessen [00:07:40] So structure, This is a, a huge conversation and people, people talk about this, people write books about this, right? And like, the, the most common thing that we're used to talking about probably is like three act structure. Like probably most people have heard of that. And that's what most like Hollywood movies are. It's just beginning, middle, and end. And like, there, there are different ways to do structure. And to me, like I'm a proponent of structure is born out of character. And like the way that a character is needs to get from point A to point B, basically, like you have a character who they, they believe one thing at the beginning of the movie, and by the end they're gonna believe something different or they're not. And you're gonna see what the effect of them not changing was, right? And so whether it really, its stories are about change, right? And whether that change is good or bad, you know, it just depends. But over the course of that change you have, it'd probably be easier if I use like an example. So you have a movie like, like Shrek, right? Shrek is like a very well structured movie, right? So you have Shrek who at the beginning, all he wants is to live in his swamp and he doesn't wanna be around anybody else. But then he is forced into a situation where in order to have that goal, like his swamp gets invaded, right? By all these creatures, fairytale creatures, because they've been kicked outta their homes. So in order for him to get what he wants his swamp back, he has to go on this journey that brings him out of his swamp.

Sean Thiessen [00:09:12] And the whole time he's sort of like caught in the tension between like wanting to just be by himself and his swamp and like opening his heart up to like friendships and love. And by the end of what you'd probably call like the second act, he gets his swamp back, but he's not happy. And so now he has to make a choice. Do am I gonna hold onto like what I thought that I wanted? Or am I going to make a choice that brings me into like a new, new normal? I guess

Vance Crowe [00:09:43] I think that change is the thing that makes this all so addicted to stories, right? Totally. Yeah. People wanna know,

Sean Thiessen [00:09:48] You

Vance Crowe [00:09:49] Know, like, oh, what, what were they faced with? Like, and then how can I apply whatever that change is to me? And would I, do I agree with their decisions? Would I have done the same thing?

Sean Thiessen [00:09:58] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:09:58] Did I fail in this way as well?

Sean Thiessen [00:10:02] I think so too. It's, yeah, it's empathy, right? It's, it's stories, watching movies, reading books or whatever. It's, it's an exploration of other people, but it's also an exploration of ourselves. It's like wish fulfillment. Like I, I love the Harry Potter movies because especially as, as you go and he gets older and the situations become darker, you're like, could I do that? Like, could, could I be as brave as Harry? You know? And like, you start relating that to your own life. And so like, it's, it's, it's escapism, you know, but it's also like something you can carry into reality, which I think is cool.

Vance Crowe [00:10:39] Yeah. And there's also something like with Harry Potter is a good example. He was like this forgotten child and like, you know, somebody came and took him to where he rightfully belonged and that he was special. That's something that every little kid kind of feels right, like arm special, right? Right. Like, maybe those aren't my parents. And maybe, maybe if somebody really knew and could train me in how to be more special to be this wizard that I know is inside of me

Sean Thiessen [00:11:06] And

Vance Crowe [00:11:06] That, but it's funny because it's so far from reality, and yet it's like totally tied into the connection with being human, being like

Sean Thiessen [00:11:15] Who we

Vance Crowe [00:11:15] Are. Yeah,

Sean Thiessen [00:11:16] Absolutely. And, and I kind of think, this is just how I think about it with stuff like Harry Potter, star Wars, Lord of the Rings. These things have created these like really extravagant worlds that are so unlike our own, they're they're more than ours, right? I think that there's a draw to that for the same reason that we have like a draw to ideas of like religion, you know, it's, it's this sense that there is like this world beyond our own that like where we're living here on earth, like isn't good enough that we're like longing for this other sort of life. And I think that stuff like Harry Potter, Lord Rings and Star Wars like kind of taps into that and sort of gives us a glimpse of like a reality that's like higher than our own.

Vance Crowe [00:12:08] What do you think is different about watching a movie versus reading a book

Sean Thiessen [00:12:13] With a book? Of course. Like you're, you're imagining everything in your head, so you get to interpret the story that's being laid out with a movie. That story is kind of being interpreted for you. There's still interpretation to do, but like, it's a, it's a much more like, like physical experience, right? It's like you can see it, you can hear it. I, to me it's more visceral and it's more sensory than reading a book is, which I really, really like. I I, I just think that there's like such power in it. And it's also like, it doesn't have to be, but like the cinema is a communal experience. And like, you can have a book club or you can like read aloud to, to other people, I guess to have a communal experience, but it's not the same. And by the way, I love books and I love reading. I think that, that, that's awesome. But that to me is, is kind of the difference.

Vance Crowe [00:13:11] You're, you're unique in that many times I think people put themselves in the position where they're like, oh, I like books better. I like the imagination part of it.

Sean Thiessen [00:13:20] Yeah. But you

Vance Crowe [00:13:21] Like the creation part of, of movies in a, in a way that gives, it's made me respect movies more because it's very easy to be like, oh, I'd rather have the dance with the author and, you know, my imagination participating in all of this. I get to create the rolling green grass.

Sean Thiessen [00:13:36] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:13:37] But the, but when I watched movies with you all of a sudden I'm like, oh, you're right. Somebody had to make every single one of those decisions. There's literally no accidents in here,

Sean Thiessen [00:13:47] Right? Yeah. And so, like, you know, reading a book and getting to sort of create all that in your head is a really like wonderful and rich experience, but like, seeing people express themselves and like express their voices and their visions in such, because you're right. Everything that you see on screen is a choice, whether it's by the director or by the actor, by the production designer, the cinematographer. It's a culmination of all these different people's choices expressing themselves and expressing this story and their point of view about the world. And I think that that's cool too. You know, that that's a different kind of experience, but it's a valuable one.

Vance Crowe [00:14:26] So you are one of the rare people that goes from like, I wanna create movies with my friends to actually creating a movie. What does it take to get a movie made in today's day and age?

Sean Thiessen [00:14:40] Boy, that's a really big question. I don't even know if I'm qualified to answer it. Just because, like, I, so I wrote the movie that I have coming out, it's called What Rhymes The Reason Comes out on October 10th. No, but I, I wrote the screenplay for it. So, so from that perspective, it just takes like the will to like push through, because like writing a feature link movie is hard. It's, that's a lot of pages to get through the script for what rhymes at threes was, I think right at about a hundred. But we wrote so many drafts and it's not just about like writing those a hundred pages, it's about all the work that you do beforehand, like figuring out like, who are these characters? And like, where's this story going? And like, what are we saying here? And, you know, going through the iterations. So I think that like to, to really get it done, get the screenplay done, it just takes like a, a will to do it. And I also had, so my uncle, his name's Kyle Roberts, he directed the movie and we've been making films together since I was a kid, which is super cool. And then it's just evolved and over time. But I had him too, to like bounce ideas off of, and we sort of like developed it together, which was super helpful. And he was like, kind of holding me accountable to, to, to hit deadlines and things like that.

Sean Thiessen [00:16:11] When it comes to actually like, making the movie, like for a feature film, there's no getting around. Like you have to spend money on it, right? Like you have to, you have to get money. Movies are really expensive to make because you have to pay tons of people to help you make it. So as far as like actually raising the money, putting together like a business plan for a movie and, and all of that kind of stuff, I was sort of at arm's length from all of that. That wasn't really my job. That wasn't my role. Other people were doing that. So I can't offer as much insight into that as I wish I could. But,

Vance Crowe [00:16:48] But you do have the insight of like, I wrote an idea down on pieces of paper. Yeah. And then eventually it became like a full on movie where people are doing, acting in Oklahoma and they're, you know, on an adventure and soundtracks are laid down in movie posters and previews and you know, all of the things going around it.

Sean Thiessen [00:17:10] Yeah. It's, it's kind of like a mind boggling thing because like, when you're writing, you're, you're by yourself and your room and you're just like coming up with these ideas and you're like, I think this is cool. I think this works. But then whenever you actually get there and, and you're gonna bring it to life, people have to bring it to life. Like e every single, this was a really valuable lesson that I learned. 'cause I was fortunate that I got to be on set. And I also, I doubled not only as like the writer on set, but as the script supervisor. This was a very independent movie.

Vance Crowe [00:17:42] So what are these roles?

Sean Thiessen [00:17:43] So the, the script supervisor is bas they're keeping track of continuity. So, so they're, they're watching the monitor, right? As everything is being filmed, they're, they're going through each page of the script, like as it's being filmed, making sure that all of the needs of the script are being fulfilled. We're not skipping any lines, we're not missing any key details. And they're also keeping track of like, performances and like, even the way that like people's hair is laying and makeup and clothes and all this stuff. Props, you know, arranged around the set. Like making sure all of those things are consistent from take to take from shot to shot, right? Because like whenever you shoot a scene, you do the same scene like several times to get what they call coverage. So you have like, you know, if if we're doing a scene together, we'll shoot it where we shoot your lines and then we break it down and we move the camera and we shoot it with my lines. That was, that was challenging one because like, I'd never like formally done that role before. And also I was so, I was so wrapped up in like, how are the performances turning out? You know, and, and keeping track of like the storytelling, because I was so involved, of course in the story that some of the technical stuff, it was hard to like do both at the same time. But I think we, we pulled it off. There's not, there's not a ton of egregious continuity errors in the final cut. So I think we, we made it out. Okay.

Vance Crowe [00:19:11] And so on the, on the set, you have actors and all these people, and you hear this like the action, what all is going on behind the scenes that if you're not making a movie, you don't, you don't understand, hey, you need a person that does this thing?

Sean Thiessen [00:19:29] Oh, that's a funny question. Well, the, the first thing to realize is like, even in like the quietest, most intimate scene between two people, there are tons of people standing all around them and like, it seems like an empty house, but it's not, it's full of people. They're, they're somewhere around, right? Because it takes a village to, to make a movie makeup and hair and wardrobe like these things, you shouldn't notice them. And like, you shouldn't really notice the cinematography or the editing because you're wrapped up in the story. But like someone like going back to that thing about choices and making decisions, like someone is making choices about every single little thing, like every shirt that everyone is wearing in the movie. And like the way everyone's hair is styled and like, do they have dirt on their face? How much, you know, does, does the amount of dirt on their face change over time? And it's like people are keeping track of that. And like, I was keeping track of some of that, but I have to shout out to like the makeup and hair and wardrobe departments because like, they were all really, really good about keeping track of their own continuity and they had all of that, like how, how dirty people are supposed to be and stuff mapped out across the movie. It's crazy.

Vance Crowe [00:20:44] So let's talk about it. Why are people getting dirty in your movie movie? Tell, tell me about the what rhymes with reason.

Sean Thiessen [00:20:49] Yeah, that was a great segue. So what rhymes with Reason is a coming of age adventure film about this kid named Jesse Brant, who, he's a high school senior and he has a tragedy in his life that sends him and his friends on this quest into the Oklahoma wilderness to find this mythical location. And this quest was something that his dad left for him. And so as, as they're going out and they're doing all this like adventury stuff, it's like very Goonies esque type of adventure. You're also dealing with grief and depression and anxiety. So talking about Kyle, the director, he's had this vision for a long time to make this movie about essentially like teenage mental health. Like he, he we're both big fans of teen movies like The Breakfast Club, big John Hughes fans, like stuff like that from the eighties. And so there's a lot of that influence in there, but we wanted to make something that was timeless and timely. Something that addresses, like social media, something that addresses the, the epidemic of depression and anxiety that especially teenagers are going through today because of this changing world that we're living in. People are so inundated with technology and comparison and 24 hour news cycles and all of these like, existential threats around us. So yeah, that, that was the goal is to like, make a movie that is fun and fun to watch and accessible, but also does dig into some of these heavier themes.

Sean Thiessen [00:22:32] Because again, going back to stuff like The Breakfast Club, that's what that movie is to me, is like, that movie is a blast to watch. It's so fun, it's funny, it's relatable, it's goofy, but it has some very real moments. You know, where you're talking about Brian, the Anthony Michael Hall's character is, is talking about like he was contemplating killing himself, you know, in the Breakfast Club. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:22:58] You don't think about that, do you?

Sean Thiessen [00:22:59] Right, right. But like that's a part of that movie. And, and that's a part of our movie too, is the main character Jesse wrestling with suicidal thoughts. And, but we wanted to treat that in a way that was, that was cinematic. And so when I say that, I mean, that was, that was visual, but not in a, not in a, in a graphic way at all. We, we wanted something that like was accessible to younger people where we're, we're talking about this, but we're not doing it in such a graphic way that it's gonna be violent or, or, or

Vance Crowe [00:23:32] Him fisted. Right? Yeah.

Sean Thiessen [00:23:33] Like I can

Vance Crowe [00:23:34] Think of all those silly like afterschool specials where like

Sean Thiessen [00:23:36] Right, people

Vance Crowe [00:23:37] Are overwrought or you think of the Saved by the Bell dealing with drug addiction. It was so hamfisted that it was a joke, right. It was. Right,

Sean Thiessen [00:23:44] Right, right. Yes. And so Kyle uses this expression a lot. He wants to earn the right to be heard specifically from, from teenagers or by teenagers I guess. And so that's, that was our goal the whole time is like, how do we be real, but still be approachable and, and not so dark, you know, that like parents are afraid to let their kids watch this movie. And so an interesting thing about that, we got raided by the Motion Picture Association. The movie is PG 13 for thematic content because it goes there. Right.

Vance Crowe [00:24:22] And did you know going in, like were you like, we're shooting for a PG 13, like how does this work? No,

Sean Thiessen [00:24:27] No. Well, so I don't know. We were kind of conflicted about it, honestly, because I really thought the movie was gonna be PG to me. It, it plays like a PG movie, but I guess because, you know, it brings up some of those heavier topics. They decided unanimously that it was gonna be PG 13. So you're kind of surprised and you're like, oh man, is this gonna turn people off? Is this gonna make parents afraid to let their kids see it or take their kids? The movie also has, like, we, we can get into this in a second, but the movie has like a little bit of, of like a faith angle on it. And so we're, we're like, are churches and youth groups gonna be afraid to, to bring their congregations or youth groups to the movie? 'cause it's PG 13, but we got approved by, there's this organization dove.org, I don't know if you're familiar with this. I, I grew up like watching Jurassic Park and The Matrix and stuff when I was a little kid. So my parents were not afraid of that sort of thing. But there,

Vance Crowe [00:25:31] My parents definitely were like, they really, that was something that was important. Well,

Sean Thiessen [00:25:34] And I'm realizing more and more that like my experience is not the norm that like a lot of parents are like, we really wanna monitor what our, what our, especially young kids are watching. So dove.org, they like, they give their like stamp of approval to things and they gave a stamp of approval to what rhymes with reason for for 12 plus. But we really think 10 plus is, is is appropriate, but what

Vance Crowe [00:26:00] Is the process? So like, let's go back and if somebody is applying for a pg that so, so people sit around and they watch it and they like have a scorecard or like how, how do these movies get rated? Yeah,

Sean Thiessen [00:26:10] That's the, the Motion Picture association. So like every time you watch a movie trailer, you know, that green banner pops up. It's like this, this preview has been approved for all audiences or some audience mature audiences, you know, whatever. All that's done by the, the Motion Picture Association, NPA and yeah, they, they rate movies, so I don't know what that process exactly

Vance Crowe [00:26:35] Looks like. And you send it off and then they like come back to you and they're like, all this is what it is. And presumably you can appeal and, and there's

Sean Thiessen [00:26:42] You can Yeah, but the, the choice on ours was unanimous. So I I don't think we could even appeal it. Maybe they did appeal it. I, I don't remember. But in any case, it didn't

Vance Crowe [00:26:51] Work. So let's talk about the, the faith angle because like, you know, my initial thing is like, oh no, this is gonna be a Christian movie. Same. Not because I'm like anti-Christian, but because Right. Oftentimes those subjects are handled really hamfisted. Right, right. Where, where you're like, alright, or, or the movies just aren't done well. Right. They, they're just like not good movies.

Sean Thiessen [00:27:13] Yeah. Yeah. I, so I, I want to disclaim what I'm gonna say here. Everything has its place. There are a lot of movies I agree with you like that, that I do not care for personally. It, it doesn't speak to me. There are some people that love that stuff and so teach their own. But that said, I, I set out, Kyle and I both set out to make the movie that like, to me was, is like the movie that I wanted when I was in high school. So we were kind of talking about this the other day, but I'm a huge fan of the band Switchfoot. And they're playing in St. Louis in a few days. Actually.

Vance Crowe [00:27:53] I should know that. Try

Sean Thiessen [00:27:53] And go see em. Yeah, I

Vance Crowe [00:27:54] Would probably go to that. Yeah,

Sean Thiessen [00:27:56] Let's talk about that later. But anyway, so Switchfoot, I I've always loved them because they were like, not a Christian band, but like a band of Christians. And so their, their faith like came through in their music, but so did their doubt. They were like very real. All their music is very honest, but it's uplifting too. And it's really positive and and empowering, but it's not afraid to ask hard questions and it's not really trying to like fit in a, in a box. And I think that like for them, that has been the challenge, like throughout their entire career they've talked about that. They're like, when when they sign to a major label, they're like, people don't know where to put us. They're like, do we go play at these Christian festivals? Like, I don't feel like that's who we are Exactly. But that's where people wanna put us. And so I wanted to make like the switch foot of movies basically. Like, that was kind of my goal was I, I want something that is coming from that perspective but isn't so in your face about it or like has has this agenda about it. It's just natural in it because that's the perspective that the story is coming from. So that was kind of like my approach to it. And we sort of encountered the same, like the switch foot problem. We sort of encountered that we were trying to raise money for the movie because they're like, people are like, what is this? And Kyle finally came up with describing it as faith adjacent because like it has elements of faith in it.

Sean Thiessen [00:29:27] It is coming from that perspective. It is positive, it is uplifting and life affirming, but it's not a, you know, we're, we're gonna pray our problems away kind of movie. And so people, people had a hard time grasping like, what is this movie? You know, when we're talking to investors, I mean like, what, what is this? Where does this belong? But it's interesting now that the movie is made, whenever we approach people about it, who, who actually watch the movie and people who enjoy it, they're like, this is a really underserved market. Not not the faith market necessarily, but like the teen faith market and like something that is honest like this and like really is geared toward the youth. I sound like old guy calling them the youths, but, but really like aim toward, aim toward the youth of today that is coming from a faith perspective that isn't like super duper cheesy and like our movie has some cheese. But I like to think that it's like the cheesy on purpose that it's fun to watch. Not the like cringing how cheesy this is hopefully. But yeah, that, that was kind of our journey there.

Vance Crowe [00:30:41] Interesting. It's a, the, the Christian angle is such an interesting one. My audience, like I hear from my audience all the time, this is a very Christian, there's a lot of people that have strong faith, but when you start talking about that with general people right, you'll get warnings about like, hey, just don't, don't just don't bring that up.

Sean Thiessen [00:31:00] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:31:00] I was talking to my buddy the other day, Sean Newman, who has this podcast and he's exploring his faith. So he's been interviewing all kinds of ministers and people that just have different backgrounds and he's like, I've run on people that have been banned from, from YouTube, people that have been like, are under prosecution by the Canadian government, maybe go to prison for years and years.

Sean Thiessen [00:31:21] Nobody

Vance Crowe [00:31:21] Complains that I bring them on, but I bring a Christian on and people are like, Hey, can you knock that off? I can't share this with my friends if I if you, if you do this. Wow. And so you, it's, it's a really interesting thing. Yeah. And I think there's like, because I know you, I'm more like, ah, I'm sure whatever it'll be is fine. But there is that kind of like, what am I getting myself into? Right. Totally. Am I gonna go to a movie and be proselytized? Yeah,

Sean Thiessen [00:31:46] Right. That's the perfect word for it. That has been like, that's the uphill battle that we're climbing. But I will say, so we premiered the movie in June at Dead Center Film Festival in Oklahoma City and got comments from several people who were not Christians, not people of faith or whatever, who were like, Hey, I, I really liked the movie. Those elements, like, were there. I I could tell that they were there, but I didn't feel like I was being preached to. And they're like, I really appreciated that. And I was like, great. That was the goal the whole time was because of course that's gonna be there, but like, I'm not a preacher and that's not what I'm here to do. I I didn't wanna make a cinematic sermon, you know, that's not what anybody here wanted to do. We wanted to actually tell a story and tell a story that one of the things about stories that are so great to me is like it, you're gonna bring yourself to it. When, when a good story, a good story invites you to bring yourself to it and bring your own life experience to it and relate to it and engage with it and draw your own conclusions about it. And so we didn't wanna wrap everything up in this like totally neat bow where it's like, well, everyone's happy now. It's like, there is sort of like a bitter sweetness to the ending of the movie, but that's life, right? And like, we didn't wanna shy away from life that like hard things happen and like they can continue to be difficult for a long time.

Sean Thiessen [00:33:16] Like if you experience a loss, even if you're a teenager, you know, even if you're like, you're too young for it, but it comes for you anyway. That happens. And that can hurt and that can hurt for a long time. But whenever you have a community of people around you and you, you face it, it can get better in time. And like that, that was kind of the, I guess what we were trying to say with it. So,

Vance Crowe [00:33:46] You know, I was watching almost Famous not that long ago, it's one of my favorite great movie favorite movies and the character played by Philip Seymour Hoffman. Yeah,

Sean Thiessen [00:33:56] Yeah, yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:33:56] You know, so he's in that movies, he just has these like little bit parts, but in one of 'em he says like, oh man, the artists are all the people that have, you know, been hurt and we're not cool. We, we have to suffer.

Sean Thiessen [00:34:09] That's

Vance Crowe [00:34:09] Why we're able to create this art. What suffering have you endured that's enabled you to create great art?

Sean Thiessen [00:34:17] Oh man. Well, I don't know. I, I have lived a, a privileged to life. I have, I'm really thankful for that. But so the hardships, I guess my, my parents got divorced whenever I was 16 and that was like a, that was a bombshell for sure. Like that, that was a big one that really, that made an impact. That's probably the most difficult thing that I've ever gone through was coming to terms with that. And, you know, I think that, so I, I haven't, I have not personally experienced like, bouts of like suicidal thoughts or anything like that. N never, never anything that was like a serious consideration of something like that. But I know people that have, and like we, we did some interviews with lots of people from different walks of life about different mental health struggles. And that was really enlightening to try and like, bring some truth and reality to the story that we were telling to the characters in it. I did a couple of years ago, experience a panic attack and is the first one ever. And, and I'm in like, in my late twenties at this point, and I'm having my first panic attack, and that was like a really weird, I didn't know what was happening.

Sean Thiessen [00:35:51] I was like crying uncontrollably and like hyperventilating and I get under control for a second, then it would just come back. And I was like, what is going on? And that, that was terrible. I never want that to happen again. But it was also insightful. It was like, now I know what this is. And so it happens to a character in our movie. And so writing that scene and, and doing the scene on the day and the, the actress Katie, who who does is unbelievable. But in, in crafting that moment, I had like the context of that experience. And so yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:36:38] Man, panic attacks. Like there, there've been a couple of times. So I, I had a very close friend in graduate school have several of them.

Sean Thiessen [00:36:47] And

Vance Crowe [00:36:47] If somebody had told me about them, I'd have been like, yeah, okay, just like, get yourself together, man. Right? Like, just, just

Sean Thiessen [00:36:54] Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:36:54] Just stop. Right? Yep. But like, I watched them and this dude was a hard dude. He was like not, he was a serious man. And when he was having that panic attack, he was indistinguishable from him having a massive heart attack.

Sean Thiessen [00:37:10] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:37:10] And like, the sweat was real, the breathing was real, the like clutching yourself. And I see this increasing in society and, and to the extent that you're like, hey, this is a, a subject we need to cover in a movie because it's Yeah. So ubiquitous and most of the teens that are watching movies don't have th this. Right. The things they're being exposed to, to have somebody recognize it in a, in a real and authentic way.

Sean Thiessen [00:37:38] What

Vance Crowe [00:37:38] Do you think is going on in culture that is making this happen more frequently?

Sean Thiessen [00:37:45] Well, it's, it's really easy to point fingers at social media. And I don't think that's totally off base. I don't think that social media is like the devil or anything. I don't think it's in inherently bad, but I think that it offers an opportunity for, for young people, really anybody to like constantly be comparing themselves to others, which I don't think is healthy like com and you can do that at high school or whatever, but this is on a whole other level. And you're getting like the, you know, the highlight reels of people's lives that you're, and you're like, well, why am I not, you know, on vacation in Mexico? Like, why don't I have a boyfriend or a girlfriend? Or, you know, why don't I have a cute dog? Like, whatever, you know, and why aren't I in that good a shape? You know? And so, so that I think has an effect. I also think that like the way that we interact with social media, like actually affects the, the chemistry in our brains, like dopamine overload, right? And like throwing off your dopamine baseline. I think that probably a lot of kids who are depressed, like that is part of it. That's a probably a big part of it. And it's really, really hard to break out of those cycles, especially like, you know, when you're, it's hard as an adult to break out of the social media cycle if you're in it. But as a kid when it's like, I mean, I remember when I was a teenager and like all my friends were reading cell phones and I didn't have one.

Sean Thiessen [00:39:16] It's like, I don't even know what I'm gonna do with a cell phone, but I need one. And like, you know, same with like fashion. Like all these kids are wearing these cool clothes and I'm in these rags. Like I need those clothes so that I can fit in. Right? It's like that, that sense of identity still being formed and, and you're trying to find ways to fit in. And so like if all your friends are on social media, all your friends are, you know, Snapchat and Instagram and TikTok and all this stuff, and you don't have it, like you're gonna, you're gonna feel alienated even if you're actually healthier for it. You know what I mean? So. Well, and

Vance Crowe [00:39:51] When I talk with dad, you know, for dads all the time I'm talking about parenting and one of my questions, I think everybody asks this like, well, when are you giving the kids a cell phone? How's that all going? Yeah.

Sean Thiessen [00:40:02] And

Vance Crowe [00:40:02] Almost universally they say the same thing, which is, well, all the other kids had 'em. And by us keeping 'em away from our kids, then they were left outta things. Right.

Sean Thiessen [00:40:12] And

Vance Crowe [00:40:13] It's funny because somebody has to be the first one to give their kids this cell phone, but, but like, the truth is, like the parents are saying, I have empathy for my child, or I I don't want them to be left out.

Sean Thiessen [00:40:26] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:40:27] And, and like, it seems like we're by, by giving kids access to social media and cell phones, it's like creating a pipe that's going into the Garden of Eden where you should be like slowly walking towards the tree of good and evil, where you're kind of beginning to understand, but social media, like just plunks that thing right in there and you can see the whole world and compare yourself to other people's little childhood at Garden of Edens. It's, it's

Sean Thiessen [00:40:55] Interesting.

Vance Crowe [00:40:55] It's a really complicated thing.

Sean Thiessen [00:40:56] It is. And, and like I'm definitely not casting any judgment. Well,

Vance Crowe [00:40:59] You, you know, you and I do Legacy Interviews together. Yeah. And one of the questions that I ask people all the time is like, what was one of the most difficult lessons to learn that was the most valuable to know?

Sean Thiessen [00:41:10] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:41:10] And one of the things that I've heard many, many times over, particularly from older women, was I wish it hadn't taken me so long to not care what other people thought of me,

Sean Thiessen [00:41:21] But

Vance Crowe [00:41:21] These are people that are like 55, 60, 70, 80 years old. Yeah. Right. And they're talking about how they just recently overcame, you know, the, the need to make it so other people thought well of them and, and that they, you know, were in the right circles or whatever that is. Yeah.

Sean Thiessen [00:41:41] And

Vance Crowe [00:41:42] You're talking about this growing mind that's

Sean Thiessen [00:41:44] New.

Vance Crowe [00:41:44] Yeah. It's gotta be so overwhelming when

Sean Thiessen [00:41:46] You're a teenager. It's like all your nerve endings are exposed. I mean, everything just hits harder, right? And so yeah, including this and, and social media is just, it's, it's making it tough. But at the same time, you know, we're growing, we're growing up in a world where they're growing up in a world where technology is more prevalent just in every walk of life. And so, like, technological literacy, digital literacy is important. And so like, they need to know how to use devices and things like that. And like social media, again, I don't think it's an inherently bad thing. It's a tool that a lot of people use for great things, like for their businesses or for their, their causes or whatever. So it's, it's really tricky. It's really tricky.

Vance Crowe [00:42:36] So speaking of technology, ever since you've come out to do Legacy Interviews, I've been asking you for updates on something that I think has been really important in your world. But in my world, if I didn't know you, I would know literally nothing at all about the writer's strike.

Sean Thiessen [00:42:52] Ah, yes. The writer story.

Vance Crowe [00:42:54] Tell me, tell me about the writer strike.

Sean Thiessen [00:42:57] Okay, well, let me preface this all by saying like, I, I am not a member of the Writer's Guild of America. I, I do hope to be one day that's the goal, but I have been following it because I know people that are, and again, it's like, that's my, that's my world, right? So the WGA, the Writer's Guild of America went on strike at the beginning of May. The strike is against an organization called the A-M-P-T-P. Basically it's like a, the Council of Movie Studios in Hollywood, right? So it's, it's like Disney and Universal and Warner Brothers and Netflix and Paramount and a couple others. I think maybe Amazon and Apple are in there now too because they're movie studios now, which is crazy. But, so the, the strike is basically, it is just total work stoppage writers. They're, they're not writing any projects for these studios and they're not promoting any projects for these studios. And then sag after the Actors Guild went on strike like a month later or month and a half later. And the issues for both guilds are a little bit different, but there's some overlap. One of the big ones for both is artificial intelligence. So actors I think are, are even more concerned about it because there, there was like a legitimate proposal from the A-M-P-T-P that they would like have the ability to scan background actors faces when they came onto set for a day of work and then like own and use that, their likeness, like in perpetuity without compensation.

Vance Crowe [00:44:39] Meaning if you were in like the stands during the Batman movie Yeah.

Sean Thiessen [00:44:42] Then

Vance Crowe [00:44:43] They could grab your face and put it at you in a rodeo and put you in Yep. Some other scene or, yep. Okay. Exactly.

Sean Thiessen [00:44:49] And people are just like, what the heck? Like, there are people that make their livings as background actors, they're like, hold on, what? But, but the, the issue comes up for even stars too, or like actors who have already passed away. It's like, can we just like recreate them in movies? Those are people who are making a living off of their likeness. For writers, it's more about like, I don't know, there are lots of different ways to use ai. I don't think AI can write a feature length screenplay right now. It might get to the point where it can, I don't know that it will ever be able to do as good a job person, but that's another conversation. But, you know, it can be used to like develop concepts and, you know, all this kind of stuff. And so it's like, we just need to create some guidelines here. Like how, how are we going to regulate this in a way that makes sense that protects artists? Because like, it's these movie studios really, they're, they're just huge corporations. They're, they're multinational conglomerates. All they care about really is the bottom line at the end of the day. And I don't, I don't know, this is kind of, this is my perspective, but it just feels like they, they'll they'll do whatever they can to like save money and they'll, even if that means like abusing people or taking advantage of people, and you've been seeing that trend. Like,

Vance Crowe [00:46:11] And the other big part of this is that when the contracts were all written up, they were set up for an age where you made a movie and it went into movie theaters and then it went on to DVDs.

Sean Thiessen [00:46:22] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:46:23] And, you know, maybe played on Cinemax or HBO, but now there's all these movies being made and they go into, they maybe go into movie theaters and then they go streaming.

Sean Thiessen [00:46:34] Yeah. So for writers, streaming is the other like, big thing. Like you said, it's totally disrupted the model for how movies are made and distributed today. So residual pay, and this, this is true of movies, but it's especially true for television writers. Like, it used to be like, if you're a writer for friends, right? Right. You're, you're still getting money from those episodes of friends that you wrote because they continue to be played. Right? And so, like, that's how you continue to earn a living in your downtime. Like, like when you're bet because you're a freelancer, right? So when you're between seasons or you're between shows, like you can continue to get paychecks from the work that is, is still being shown out there. Right. Which I think makes sense. But with streaming, like there's, they're not transparent about those numbers. And like the residual deals are different and they're much worse. And so like, it's much less of a meritocracy. So like if you write an episode of like Stranger Things or Wednesday or like, you know, one of these like mega hits that everyone in the world is watching on Netflix, you're not necessarily being compensated in the way that, in the way that you should. Like, you're not being paid more because your work was popular. And so like that, that really like de incentivizes good work, first of all. But it, it also is like, well these streamers are clearly making loads of money from these projects.

Sean Thiessen [00:48:10] So like, where's this breakdown happening? Like, where are you just keeping that money for yourself? Like how, how is this, this doesn't seem right and this is not how things have been done for like decades. Right? So that's part of the problem there. The WJ is also talking about like minimum staffing requirements for shows and minimum like work periods for shows. So like, 'cause with streaming, a lot of times, almost all the time the seasons are shorter than they were back in like the, the network broadcast days where it used to be like 24 episodes a season for every show. It's not really like that anymore. So writers don't get to write as many episodes. They just don't stick around as long. And so they're like, we're, we're not making as much money. And, and then we go into this like period where this in-between period and we're still not making as much money because the residuals are worse. So we can't support ourselves.

Vance Crowe [00:49:11] But, so it's funny because the strike's been going on, it's not like when airline pilots strike and the planes stop flying. Right? Right. Like, everybody's still been watching their streaming shows. The the TV is still running. So when does this start to like squeeze people?

Sean Thiessen [00:49:28] Well, it's already starting. We, you know, we don't really know. We don't have a good look at like the studios books. Right. We don't know how long they can last. I, I know, like I have a lot of friends in Los Angeles who are not working and it's hard. I think the WGA is trying to appeal to the state of California to allow striking workers to get unemployment benefits to just write something about this. But I think that like, we're really gonna feel it this fall. Like, you, you, every day you're seeing like more movies getting pushed because actors aren't around to promote them. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:50:08] They're not even allowed to do anything 'cause they're on strike. So normally they'd be going to movie premieres and sitting on panels and Right.

Sean Thiessen [00:50:14] Doing

Vance Crowe [00:50:14] Interviews with media

Sean Thiessen [00:50:16] And doing like the Jimmy Fallon like late night thing. But those shows aren't running either. So like, we're not gonna be getting new episodes of those kinds of shows like the fall season. Like if you are someone who still watches, like any network TV shows, like they just won't be there in the fall.

Vance Crowe [00:50:36] Probably starting now, now that it's after Labor Day.

Sean Thiessen [00:50:38] Oh yeah. I guess it is the fall just about right. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:50:40] So,

Sean Thiessen [00:50:41] So yeah, we're already feeling that. It's crazy. Expect to see a lot more reality TV shows in the coming months. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:50:50] There'll be a whole bunch of American Ninja warrior and, and I stranded my, my wife on a beach and we'll see if she was faithful kind of shows.

Sean Thiessen [00:50:59] Yeah, right. Which is, I don't really even want to get into that. I don't have a high opinion of reality tv. I, I did some work in reality TV when I was in LA and I was like, it just, I don't know, felt kind of grimy being there.

Vance Crowe [00:51:16] So speaking of LA you were living out in la whenever you hear it talked about on Joe Rogan or any of these shows, they're all like, LA is burning down. It's horrible. What is it, what what was it like out there?

Sean Thiessen [00:51:30] I really like Los Angeles personally. I like, I enjoyed living there a lot, but it's, it's like anywhere, like, it has pros and cons and the cons of LA are the cost of living. It's, it's very crowded and in the film industry, like, it's, it's very saturated market. Market. And I think too, like people kind of have this image of Hollywood in their heads and I think it's an outdated image. That was kind of my experience. I I miss it. I miss my friends there probably more than anything. I don't, I don't miss the traffic. I don't miss how much my rent was. And what

Vance Crowe [00:52:14] Are your friends saying about how life is now that all this stuff is coming to a grinding halt with the strikes?

Sean Thiessen [00:52:19] Yeah, I mean, peop it's hard. Like, like some of my friends have been able to, to get by still. Like some of them, you know, they found other types of day jobs. I have a friend who's like a very successful makeup artist, but she does like model modeling shoots and stuff like that. So she's not super reliant on film. But yeah, it's tough. Like, I, I have a few friends who work in writer's rooms who's not working, not getting paid. It's tough.

Vance Crowe [00:52:55] And you came out to St. Louis from LA to join Legacy Interviews. So like, what has your experience been like? How have you, how, first of all, why'd you do it and what have you found since you came here?

Sean Thiessen [00:53:09] It's been really good, you know, working, working for Legacy Interviews is like definitely the, the opportunity that I needed, that I, that I do need right now. It's, it's so cool to hear the stories that I get to hear. I really enjoy that. It's great. So my family is from Springfield, Missouri, so I'm only three hours away from them now instead of like halfway across the country, which is great. I I really enjoy that. I enjoy being in a city that is like St. Louis feels, well, it's way less crowded for one, but it's also, it feels like hungrier in a way. I think,

Vance Crowe [00:53:47] Oh, this is super interesting.

Sean Thiessen [00:53:49] I feel this way about Oklahoma City as well, which is where we shot what rhymes with reason. And these, these cities have chips on their shoulders, I think because they, they tend to get overlooked by the quote unquote coastal elites. You know what I mean? And there's a little bit of like a, a chip on the shoulder, like that's cool. That's a different kind of energy. There's a ton of energy in LA too, but it's a different kind of energy. And this is cool. Like, it feels like there's, there's building happening here. Missouri recently passed a film tax incentive tax credit. So basically that's why like a lot, lots of movies shoot in California, in Atlanta, like in the state of Georgia. That's

Vance Crowe [00:54:38] Why they shot Ozark in Georgia and

Sean Thiessen [00:54:40] Yes, exactly. Yeah. If you've ever wondered like, well, why wouldn't they just shoot it where it's set? It's because Georgia has an incredible tax incentive program. So it's like every dollar that you spend in Georgia on like Georgia labor, you get however many cents on the dollar back from the state. And there's, Georgia is exceptional in that. There's no cap on it. That's why like all the Marvel movies, the substitute there 'cause they can spend like millions and millions of dollars and, and get that tax advantage seems to be working out for them. I guess so. But it's cool. So Missouri has one now. It's not as extravagant or lavish as George's, but it, it exists again. So that's exciting. Hopefully like more production starts coming to Missouri.

Vance Crowe [00:55:22] What's it like being, you know, your late twenties, you're moved to a new city. How do you, how do you find new friends? How do you like integrate into this new place?

Sean Thiessen [00:55:32] I don't know. I don't have any friends. No, I, I have lots of friends that don't live in St. Louis and I have a few that do. And so just, you know, building those relationships and just trying to get out when I can, I guess. But I stay pretty busy. I work a lot, so Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:55:55] You know, we, every, all the Legacy Interviews are confidential, but you do get to like, because you're editing these people, telling their life stories.

Sean Thiessen [00:56:04] What

Vance Crowe [00:56:04] Have you gotten to see from like a backed up view of, of human nature, what people care about?

Sean Thiessen [00:56:12] Hmm. It's interesting to see what's the same for people, but also what's different. People do have different values, but almost everybody s says that their family is the most important thing. And that like, when they, when they look at their life in, in retrospect, their family is their greatest achievement. And like, that is, that is like the defining factor of their lives. And I think for me, like I, I don't, like I mentioned before, I don't have a family yet. And so like, I'm very focused on my career and like, making good work and like, that is what I want to be known for. That's what I want my legacy to be at this stage in my life. But, you know, if I ever have a family then it's like, it's hard to imagine, I guess anything superseding my career right now. Anything like superseding making movies and like dying with like an impressive filmography. Like maybe that sounds like kind of silly, but like, that's what I want right now. And to think that like one day that's gonna change and that's not gonna be the number one priority anymore is, is wild. And like obviously I have, I do have my family, I have my parents and I have my siblings and extended family and I love them and I'm close to them. But I don't know, I just think it's different probably once you have kids.

Vance Crowe [00:57:47] Yeah. There's something like, I mean there's, it's not a mistake that people describe it as a family tree. 'cause I was the exact same way, right? When, when the leaves are coming off the very tip of me that's like your career. But when you add a branch on or two branches on and now all of a sudden you're like, oh, okay. My career, at least for me is in part a way for me to move resources out to these little ones because the, the, the, those branches growing is the thing that I care about. Huh. That's interesting. And you can feel it from like the internal side of it. And I agree, you know, if, if it would be almost painful to do legacy interview interviewing if you didn't have family as either something that you appreciated was really valuable or you have it yourself because you see these people, they're wildly successful in their lives or they've done really interesting things, even people that don't think they've done really interesting or important things. Yeah.

Sean Thiessen [00:58:49] They're talking

Vance Crowe [00:58:49] About their lives and you're like, oh my gosh, look at all this stuff you accomplished. They still come right back to you. And we were so worried about our kids and, you know, in this circumstance or we were so, you know, oh, I remember when they would just laugh and laugh and laugh at this thing and you see like, that was the most meaningful part of their lives. Yeah.

Sean Thiessen [00:59:09] Yeah. I, I just think, I think that's really fascinating. And aside from that, you just get like kind of these, these nuggets of wisdom. People drop some like pretty serious one-liners sometimes in Legacy Interviews and you're like, sometimes you just have to hit the space bar, pause it and be like,

Vance Crowe [00:59:29] Whoa,

Sean Thiessen [00:59:31] That was intense. And like yeah. You just, you take note of those things 'cause it's a front row seat to some pretty serious wisdom.

Vance Crowe [00:59:41] Yeah. I remember being asked one time, like, you sat and did, you know, six hours of listening to people tell their stories. I'm like, this is the greatest movie that this person could possibly create. Right. They sat down and they built their life and like they, and every person in the Legacy Interviews ha they don't know they're telling a story of change, but they're always telling stories of change.

Sean Thiessen [01:00:04] Oh, totally. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:00:05] Like, they, like, they don't, they don't sit there thinking like, oh, I want to articulate this lesson through this thing, but they're always like, and that's how I learned this way that I thought before didn't work or that I thought I could get away with this, but I couldn't.

Sean Thiessen [01:00:19] Well, and see, going back to like story structure being about change, I think that the reason that that resonates when we do it in the artificial form is because that is the rhythm of life. And so it's, that's why we recognize it and that's why we value it. It's interesting.

Vance Crowe [01:00:38] Yeah. And I think like when you're in the first person perspective of change, it's really hard to even point your finger towards like, oh, I'm changing right now, or Oh, I just changed. Right? Yeah.

Sean Thiessen [01:00:52] It's only

Vance Crowe [01:00:52] When you look back that you're like, oh, this mistake that I made over and over and over and over again, it finally got painful enough for me to do something different.

Sean Thiessen [01:01:02] Yes.

Vance Crowe [01:01:02] And the pain is the story, right? Yeah. The pain is like the Ooh, that's what happens. Totally.

Sean Thiessen [01:01:07] Yeah. And like whenever we write drama, like it's, that's exactly it. It's like how do we make this person's life as terrible as possible?

Vance Crowe [01:01:16] Like, like

Sean Thiessen [01:01:17] In this, in the context of whatever story we're telling and like push it to the limit because Yeah. We, we identify with that.

Vance Crowe [01:01:26] I also think that an interesting factor of doing these has been things that people come in initially embarrassed of, right? And they're like, you can tell that they're nervous to talk about this thing, but it was either really important in their lives or it was something that happened to them and like they think I've already worked this out. I know that this is something I should be embarrassed of or something that I had to work through or something that I don't want other people to know. But as they have articulated this story, they themselves are learning something out of that story that's like they've never thought of because they've never told it out loud before or they've never, or if they did tell it out loud, it was like to their spouse as they were experiencing it. But like, it's not fun to go back to the bankruptcy or the, you know, challenges you had with your child. Yeah. But then you go back and you're like, ah, but that's how we, that's how we did it. And not that everybody's stories end, you know, with a bow on them. Right.

Sean Thiessen [01:02:31] But

Vance Crowe [01:02:32] They always end with a and that's how I learned this thing. Like, I changed or I do this thing now.

Sean Thiessen [01:02:39] Yeah. People always kind of, at least, at least from what I've seen, like people always kind of have like a lesson learned from even the hardest times and, and they can sort of see, you kinda see it happening on their faces sometimes, like putting the pieces together, like you said, connecting the dots and realizing I guess like how this trying experience sort of brought them to where they are.

Vance Crowe [01:03:08] You know, I never really thought about it, but like, it's funny 'cause I'll ask questions when, when things get a little heavy, right? Yeah. And you

Sean Thiessen [01:03:15] Need

Vance Crowe [01:03:15] To like bring it up. I'll ask, tell me about a joyful time or tell me about a time, you know, when things are going great. Like they really struggle. Like if you're like, oh, tell me about a time when everything was joyful and, and going, well,

Sean Thiessen [01:03:28] Yeah, that is totally true. They

Vance Crowe [01:03:29] Say all the time like, oh, we had 'em, but I'm trying to think of one.

Sean Thiessen [01:03:34] Yeah. Or like, how do I just pick one?

Vance Crowe [01:03:38] Right. You

Sean Thiessen [01:03:38] Know, because you're just sort of cycling through all these like, like blurry amalgamation of happiness from different times. You know, it's, it's like I'm sort of blending like all these Christmases and things together in my head and Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:03:52] But the one Christmas where things all went haywire and you're like, woo, that that one went bad.

Sean Thiessen [01:03:57] Yeah. That

Vance Crowe [01:03:58] You,

Sean Thiessen [01:03:58] That

Vance Crowe [01:03:59] You remember, you are able to pick that up that you remember. Yeah. That's super interesting. I had never thought of that until now.

Sean Thiessen [01:04:05] I wonder if that's because like in our brains, like, like as we're going through life, it's like kinda like touching the stove, right? It's like you touch the stove once and you're like, oh gosh, I can't do that again. Right.

Vance Crowe [01:04:17] You

Sean Thiessen [01:04:18] Know, and I, I think when we experience pain, even if it's more complex types of pain, we, our brains that like digs into our brain. 'cause we're like, we need to avoid this, we can't do this again.

Vance Crowe [01:04:30] Yeah. Because you're, when you experience pain, your brain is like, what do I need to do to make it stop?

Sean Thiessen [01:04:36] Yeah. And what

Vance Crowe [01:04:36] Do I need to do to make sure it doesn't happen again? Right. And then you get this, like, as you figure that out, you get this rush of dopamine and if you've gone through a phase of suffering where things were not going well,

Sean Thiessen [01:04:49] Then

Vance Crowe [01:04:49] The release of like, ah, I figured out how to get past that. Even if the, like, I figured out how to get past that was really pretty terrible. Like

Sean Thiessen [01:04:58] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:04:59] At least in my own life I can think of like, that's

Sean Thiessen [01:05:02] Interesting.

Vance Crowe [01:05:02] All those experiences where you're like, it wasn't fun to figure it out, but I did figure it out and I get this release of dopamine. I mean, like, that's why the exploration of self right? When you're like, why did this thing happen? And and particularly if you ask the question, why did this happen and how am I responsible for why this happened? Right? Like, because like when you can finally figure out why you were responsible at first it's like, Ooh, I did that thing and you wince, but then you have the like, okay, well at least now I know. But it is hard to go have that level of self-reflection because you have to experience the pain and you're not sure you're gonna get that big dopamine rush

Sean Thiessen [01:05:41] Totally. From

Vance Crowe [01:05:42] Discovery.

Sean Thiessen [01:05:43] Yeah. Yeah. And I, that's probably like, this is fascinating. I think maybe that's like a reason, at least for myself, like, I'm sometimes hesitant to do things that I know are good for me or, or that I suspect will be good for me because there isn't a guarantee and you're like, I don't know, this is gonna be painful. What if it doesn't pay off in the way that I want? Then it's just like paying for nothing.

Vance Crowe [01:06:14] Yeah. But I think like, we're

Sean Thiessen [01:06:14] Constantly making those calculations

Vance Crowe [01:06:16] Some somewhere always like digging deep enough, like, like, you know, we were joking before the interview started about like, what was gonna be my opening question. And you and I joked about like, well, it could be about the worst breakups you ever had. Right?

Sean Thiessen [01:06:30] But

Vance Crowe [01:06:30] Those breakups, like when you really look back on them, there is something where you're like, not necessarily that you did wrong, but like, where did this not match up? And when did I stop noticing? Like, when was I being naive? When did I not see what I needed to see? And in a breakup, like it can be years before you're able to like look back on that experience and be like, oh, she was cheating on me that whole time. And I just, I just didn't, I just didn't know. Yeah. But I should have known. And by learning that hard lesson, then it doesn't happen again.

Sean Thiessen [01:07:10] Yeah. Hopefully. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's totally self-reflection kind of a big deal.

Vance Crowe [01:07:18] How do you write about self-reflection in a screenplay so that the audience knows that there's an internal dialogue going on?

Sean Thiessen [01:07:29] Interesting, interesting question. So like with what rhymes reason? I'll use that as an example. We, so the main character, he's, he's in a bout of depression and he is experiencing suicidal thoughts. So we're like, okay, how do we, how do we show that? Like without him just talking about it or like, you know, you could jump to the cliches of, you know, you could, I don't know,

Vance Crowe [01:07:59] Have a dream sequence or Yeah.

Sean Thiessen [01:08:01] Something like that. Or, you know, be like, pick up like a, a bottle of pills or something. And he's kind, you know, but that's like, again, talking about like, we don't want to be that on the nose about it. That feels really dark, that feels a, a little insensitive, it feels a little cliche. So like, how, how are we gonna do this? And what we came up with was he, he basically has these moments where he's sort of like, is transported out of whatever, you know, situation he is in and he's just in this like dark void and there is a locker. So like in the beginning of the movie, you see at his school, there's a locker of a classmate that took his own life and you know, it's like decorated, you know, with notes from friends and all this stuff. When Jesse, the main character goes to the void, he sees the same locker, but it's his photo. And that was, that was kind of a breakthrough. I I think that it works. We've gotten some good feedback about it, but it's a, it's a way to show like this is on his mind without talk, without saying it, you know, or without being like, graphic or violent or, or explicit, you know what I mean? And so you're kind of putting those pieces together and that, that was like, that was our way of showing that. And I think that that's the trick, right? Is like, so like if you wanna tell a story about internal monologue, about, you know, someone really getting into the nitty gritty of their like self-reflection, maybe you write a novel

Vance Crowe [01:09:41] Yeah. Because novels really are that way, right? Yeah.

Sean Thiessen [01:09:43] Right. That you

Vance Crowe [01:09:43] Can transfer around. I can be like, Hey, what's going on in Sean's head? Not what's going on in Vance's head. Yeah.

Sean Thiessen [01:09:48] And

Vance Crowe [01:09:48] It's indistinguishable from when the dialogue is going on.

Sean Thiessen [01:09:52] Yeah. But for, for movies, you have to translate things into, again, like these visceral sensory terms, these visual and, and auditory terms. So that's why a lot of like people complain about, oh, the, the book was better than the movie when, when they adapt to something. And a lot of times that's why is because like you're, you're getting all this context in a book that you don't get in a movie like this internal context. And a lot of books are like, they really hang their hat on that. And the, a movie just can't, that's not its function. That's not what the form excels at. And so when you, when you lose that, you just, you get something else, it's just not as satisfying.

Vance Crowe [01:10:36] There's a YouTube channel, I'm sure you've seen it called Lessons from the Screenplay. Oh

Sean Thiessen [01:10:40] Yeah, yeah. I love that one. And

Vance Crowe [01:10:41] The one that like, it's an excellent, you know, show, but like he does one where he does Gone Girl. And they, he does a really great job of describing how in a movie you can do things that would be difficult to do in a book or you'd have to do it in a different way, which is, it's the, the protagonist that, that everybody thinks has killed his wife goes and finds the guy that who ultimately his wife kills and Frame, you know, acts like was stealing. But he says, I want to, I, the, the, the movie wants to show that there is a big divide between them

Sean Thiessen [01:11:16] And

Vance Crowe [01:11:16] The way that they do it is he comes to his front door and instead of him opening the gate that's between them, he leaves it shut and they talk through the gate. Right? Yeah. So there's like a very physical thing there.

Sean Thiessen [01:11:28] And it was

Vance Crowe [01:11:29] Really striking to me because so much of that goes on in movies and I'm sure you perceive it.

Sean Thiessen [01:11:35] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:11:35] But you are not having the actual dialogue with yourself. Like, oh, he didn't open the screen, therefore there's something between them, but you feel it in the same way that you do in real life. Like if I'm sitting here right. Like with my arms crossed, you maybe don't even necessarily now you do, but like, you might not have noticed that I was doing it, but you'd be like, man Vance feels really closed off and cold today.

Sean Thiessen [01:11:56] Yeah, totally. Yeah. Body language and, and yeah, just the visual language of, of movies is, is fascinating. John Carpenter director directed like Halloween and Big Trouble in Little China and like all these classic movies, but he said movies is just, it's making the mental physical Oh.

Vance Crowe [01:12:17] Which

Sean Thiessen [01:12:18] Is very simple, but it's pretty profound and it's totally true that that's the trick of it. Right. And like, that's hopefully what what we did in what rhymes with reason, but yeah. That, that is the trick.

Vance Crowe [01:12:30] So you have talked about wanting to have, you know, a whole filmography. Are you, do you wanna be in one genre? Do you have like a certain type of movie or do you, what, what is it that you would like to be creating?

Sean Thiessen [01:12:45] It's funny that you ask that because that's like, whenever you tell people you're a screenwriter, at least in LA this was the case you mentioned you're a screenwriter, people are like, oh, what kind of stuff do you write? Because people want to put other people in boxes, right. When we put everything into boxes and what I, what I ended up telling people is like, I like kids fighting monsters, and that is a lot of what I have written, kind of like Stranger Things esque stuff, you know, and I love et and I love Jurassic Park and things like this, but I think it's really, it is really broader than that though for me, I don't, I don't really have a great answer. I, I think coming of age stories are something that I always gravitate toward, but I want to, that's not always with kids or teenagers. I think we've talked about this and you kind of see it in Legacy Interviews too. It's like people are always coming of age because in every phase of life, like you think you've got it licked and then something else happens and you're like, oh, I've never done this before. Never, never been a parent, never been a grandparent, you know, never sent a kid to school. Like you, you're, you're constantly evolved. I've never been fired before. That came outta nowhere.

Vance Crowe [01:14:08] I've never been single as an, as a, you know, 55-year-old man.

Sean Thiessen [01:14:12] Yeah, right, exactly. So you're always coming of age. And so I think that interests me, that interests me a lot as far as genre. I like, I like everything and I kind of want to do a little bit of everything. I like, I like to have fun though when I'm watching movies, like, I can appreciate anything, but at the end of the day, I like fun

Vance Crowe [01:14:38] Watching movies with you is unlike any experience I've ever had with another person in that you are so free to laugh you. Like you, even if you're, I've, I've walked past a room when you're watching a movie and I've heard you laughing to yourself, which I think is rare, but when you're with somebody else, you're like sitting there laughing and like, I don't know if it's just my, not my culture or what, but like something has to be really funny for me to laugh out loud.

Sean Thiessen [01:15:03] Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, like, I think that's a lot of people though. And like, I've watched movies with a lot of people or even like significant others where like, I'm laughing they're not, and I'm like, oh gosh, they must not be enjoying the movie. And then I asked 'em after and they're like, no, I liked it. I thought it was funny. It just wasn't like, you know, laugh out loud funny. And I was like, I don't understand what you're saying to me.

Vance Crowe [01:15:26] Yeah, because you laugh like laughing like throughout the entire movie. Yeah. Like,

Sean Thiessen [01:15:30] I like to laugh. Laughing is fun.

Vance Crowe [01:15:34] The other thing that you do is you go to a lot of movies.

Sean Thiessen [01:15:38] I try. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:15:39] So why, why is that something you put so much effort into?

Sean Thiessen [01:15:43] I think that it doesn't really matter what the movie is, watching it at the movie theater is the best way to watch it. That's just, that's just the reality. Watching it on a big screen with loud speakers is the best way to watch any movie. And there's just something really powerful about and absorbing about the big screen and the dark room and the fact that everybody's gonna stop talking. We're not gonna pause it. We're just gonna experience this together. And you're experiencing it with strangers too, which like some people think is annoying and sometimes it is if those people are annoying. But I think a lot of times it's just really cool. Especially horror movies at the theater are a lot of fun.

Vance Crowe [01:16:29] Oh, that's really interesting.

Sean Thiessen [01:16:30] But, but even a drama, just like a straight drama. I, I went and saw this movie called Past Lives a few weeks ago. It's just a straight, you know, like relationship drama, but like watching it on the big screen is so much more absorbing and powerful. I walked outta there with tears in my eyes just like, that was such a powerful experience. And I think it also, like weirdly mimics, and this is not an original thought, but it weirdly mimics like sitting around the campfire and telling stories to each other because you're like in this dark place and there's just like this single source of light and everybody's just fixated on this one story that's unfolding and it's like just a more technologically advanced version of that, which is kind of cool.

Vance Crowe [01:17:16] I think it's excellent. I like, I, you know, you and I come at things from very different angles, but I hear you coming to, to things about movies and you just, you're not jaded about it. And I feel like it is so easy to be like, ah, movies aren't as good as they used to be. And oh, like I, I don't know. I don't go to the theater, da da da. Yeah.

Sean Thiessen [01:17:37] But

Vance Crowe [01:17:38] Like, you're not that way at all.

Sean Thiessen [01:17:40] Well thanks, but, but I think, so I hear this a lot and I say it too, you know, like the movies aren't as good as they used to be kind of thing, or like, not, there's no original movies anymore. And that, that's what I hear from people more often. And I, a lot of people, even people that are like casual movie goers, they're not like in the film industry and they're not like movie buffs. They just watch movies sometimes comes to me and they're like, where do I get like a good movie? You know, like an original movie because I'm like, I, I'm not into like the superhero thing and I don't, I don't wanna watch Star Wars or anything like this and I'm scrolling through Netflix and it just looks like a bunch of junk or whatever. Like where, where do I get a good movie? And the thing is like, there are lots of really good movies and really original movies being made, but you, it takes a little bit of work to go find them, right? Because like what what we see is like the superheroes and the space epics and the Fast and the Furious and all this stuff because that's where the marketing dollars are. There's like hundreds of millions of marketing dollars, like making sure that we're aware of these things. But then you have movies like Past Lives, which I just mentioned, which not a ton of people saw, but is to me like one of the best movies of the year and very original and very powerful story. So yeah, it takes a little bit of effort to go and find these things, but they are there.

Sean Thiessen [01:19:13] And I, I wanna circle that back to what rhymes the three too. Just a little plug. Like our movie comes out in the theater for one night only on October 10th. It's being released through Fathom Events, which is, fathom Events is like a partnership between a MC Regal and Cinema Theaters ba basically a way for them to like fill their theaters, but they show lots of like classic movies. They show lots of animation and they show inspirational films, which is the category that our movie falls under. And it, it is an event, it is one night only, but the theatrical experience is really valuable and supporting independent films at the theater is really valuable. And if you are a person who's like, I'm tired of the same old Hollywood garbage or whatever, or I am just looking for something original money is the only thing that, that Hollywood, that's the only language that they speak, right? So it's like the way that you make a change is by changing what you support and supporting independent films is a way for those things to become more viable. And likewise, like not supporting the things that you're tired of is the way to make those things go away.

Vance Crowe [01:20:38] Yeah. I mean, ever since you told me about this, like, and, and the fact that you guys got in it was really cool, but the, these in theaters all over the country, they open them up like on a, like for yours it's a Tuesday night October 10th, right? And, and like, hey, we're gonna play this movie all over the country and, you know, people can find tickets to it and people can go to this movie that they've would not otherwise see. And they'd have to wait for it to come out on streaming and then it'd be buried among a bunch of things. And like you guys got chosen to be one of these videos that gets played in all these theaters all over the country. I like, I've been excited about it ever since. Like my, I have a buddy that's releasing like a, a real movie Yeah. That's

Sean Thiessen [01:21:22] Going

Vance Crowe [01:21:22] Out on big screen.

Sean Thiessen [01:21:24] Yeah, yeah. It's gonna be awesome. And again, like I already kind of gave my spiel about why the theatrical experience is so important, but watching movies with your family, watching movies with your friends is a powerful thing. And so we have a way, again, we kind of created this movie to be like the Ultimate Youth Group movie. It's, it's like a, a movie that teenagers will actually want to go watch that families can go see together, like a, a church or a school would be comfortable showing, you know. And so like we have ways to do that. I've got, we have our website, it's just w rwr film.com if you find me on Instagram or you can find the movie on Instagram. Like we have links in our bios to our website and to places to get tickets and places to book group tickets. So you can get your youth groups together, you can get a school group together. You can even have it shown at your church or at your school if that's something that you're interested in. There are ways to set that up. So yeah, it, it's, it is an event like, it, it's a really cool thing and we're just trying to get as many people as we can out there to see it and, and enjoy it together. And it's a fun movie too. Like we've, we talked a lot about like the serious elements, but like, it is fun. It is an adventure. There's, there's lots of comedy elements to it and it's a fun movie to watch with a group of people. So the more people you get to go see it, the more fun you'll have.

Vance Crowe [01:22:55] Have you picked out what theater you're gonna watch it in?

Sean Thiessen [01:22:58] Yes. I, I'm gonna go see it in my hometown of Springfield, Missouri at the a MC theater there. And I'm trying to set up a, a way to do like a q and a there just kind of a special thing for my, my hometown, so.

Vance Crowe [01:23:12] Oh man, that's fantastic.

Sean Thiessen [01:23:14] Yeah. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:23:15] Well I am definitely gonna go see it and I'll watch it in the movie theater and this will be the first time I've been to a movie theater in probably, I don't know, maybe 10 years. I don't know, like a long time.

Sean Thiessen [01:23:25] What,

Vance Crowe [01:23:26] Maybe not 10, but, but not quite as long as I've been married. But I think Annie and I have only gone to see maybe like three movies since we've been married. But Yeah. But I'm excited about it and, and I'll put all of the, I'll put a link to the, to the trailer, which is fun.

Sean Thiessen [01:23:42] Yeah,

Vance Crowe [01:23:42] Yeah, for sure. And, and like where to buy tickets down in the show notes.

Sean Thiessen [01:23:45] Fantastic. Ah, that's so exciting.

Vance Crowe [01:23:48] Sean, man, thank you so much for coming on and thank you.

Sean Thiessen [01:23:51] This is great. Thank

Vance Crowe [01:23:52] You. You know, actually like one last thing, like you've made a huge difference with Legacy Interviews. Like, you came in and, you know, you watch what we were doing. You'd been an editor from afar for a while, but like you came in and were like, Hey, I think we can make these upgrades. I think we can make these changes. And our whole team has gotten better. And, and yeah, I, I love what we're producing even more than what we were doing before. And I just thank you, man. I'm so glad to have you on the team. Well,

Sean Thiessen [01:24:17] Thank you. I really, really, from the bottom of my heart, appreciate the opportunity. It's, it's been a big deal for me. It's really cool and I gets to do cool stuff like this. Yeah. This is awesome.

Vance Crowe [01:24:27] All right. Thanks for coming on.

Sean Thiessen [01:24:28] Thank you.