How Conservation Easements Keep Farmland From Becoming Strip Malls Forever

John Larson [00:00:00] As the crow flies on the Vance Crow podcast.

Vance Crowe [00:00:05] John Larson, welcome to the podcast.

John Larson [00:00:09] It's great to be here, Vance. Thanks.

Vance Crowe [00:00:11] So this is a weird podcast because you're not an epidemiologist or some sort of computer researcher that, that discovered the pandemic. You're not in the, in the heart of, of Brooklyn, where the New York pandemic is going on. You are in a position that is maybe further out on thinking with regards to this coronavirus and how is it impacting people, which is that you work at a farmland trust organization that helps people say, we wanna make sure that this land is preserved and it is only used as farmland in the future. And so first of all, did I get that right? And then can you explain a little bit more about what it is that you do?

John Larson [00:00:54] Yeah, I think that, you know, in this, this time right now, people would be, you know, they're, they're probably wondering why, why this guy, you know, why, why, why do you, why do you have me on Vance? And the the part that I'd say is that we're looking at this through a, a lens of, you know, it's not really obvious why we're on, but when you think about the disruption that this pandemic is causing, it's impacting the farmers and ranchers that we work with every day and are trying to protect in the long term, in, in the context of their protecting their farmland for future generations, but then also in the context of the direct markets that have been lost because people are not going to restaurants and, and, and are staying home.

Vance Crowe [00:01:40] Oh, I didn't even think about that. I mean, my reasoning for continuing to have you on, so just in full disclosure, you and I met at the Land Expo, or, or you guys got to see me give a speech, and then I was planning on coming out to do a talk at one of your big conferences on how do societies change, right? How, how does the Overton Window open up and have a different way of looking at things? And a a after your thing got canceled, it was right at the same time that I was going to the grocery store and the shelves weren't full, and there was a run on toilet paper and that you couldn't get all of the meat that you wanted and you couldn't get everything that you wanted. And I realized that I have had a major oversight in my life over the last five to six years, which is, I went from being a guy that was super suspicious of Monsanto to then getting involved in Monsanto and seeing this is the beauty and the power, and really the majesty of large scale agriculture isn't this amazing. Let's go big, big, big efficiency go, go, go. And then something like this happens and you realize, oh shit, you've gotta have both sides of this. You can't just have efficient, large system just in time. You need to have something else. And that's why I was like, John, will you come on and talk about what something else can look like?

John Larson [00:03:00] Yeah. And I really appreciate that because, you know, this is a, just, this is such an unusual time and it's, I I, I don't wanna seem opportunistic in, in, in the way that we kind of approach things, but I I, I don't think that people really have thought too far down the path of how hard is it to make sure that we have that food on the shelves when we need it. And when we look at production agriculture, you know, at, at the American Farmland Trust, we are, we are size agnostic. I mean, we, we do not differentiate.

Vance Crowe [00:03:31] So what is a farmland trust for somebody that doesn't know?

John Larson [00:03:34] Sure. So the American Farmland Trust was created 40 years ago, and really with the intent of protecting farmland from just this kind of unabated development pressure, let's build strip malls everywhere. Let's just pave over, you know, some of our most productive farmland, what was paved over. And, and, and when we think about that in that context of where is farmland, it's where people live. And, and that was, you know, the reason why St. Louis is where it is. It's the reason why, you know, here in Minneapolis where I live, why we're here, it's, it's all these pieces coming together where people at that point in time had to grow their own food. And so the trust really looks at the opportunity to assist farmers to have options and to have alternatives to just flat out selling out to the highest bidder. And, and I, and I get, you know, and this is one of those points in times Z when we really think need to think about farmland is more than just the use we're using today. And, you know, the, the, the best use is something different because some of this farmland is the best use for that land, and that's where we're gonna grow our food. You know,

Vance Crowe [00:04:48] I think the thing that I found interesting about a farmland trust was for a long time I used to just think, well, the market is gonna bear out where if we keep farmland or if we don't, and if we don't want that farmland because it's more valuable as a subdivision suburbs, even a new town, then that's just the way that it is. It had never really dawned on me though, that just like land has mineral rights where you can sell the oil or the the ore that's underneath your ground, or even the water if you have it, you could actually make an easement and say, we are going to, we're gonna sell off the part that says you can use this land for something else. So that, that way the, the farmer gets the benefit of that, of that money right now. Yeah. Because he is now sold the future value of it. But it means that when he or she goes to sell it, they can only sell it to somebody else that's gonna use it for farmland. And that is an interesting way to have a free market solution to a tragedy of the commons kind of issue.

John Larson [00:05:48] Yeah. And it's a very important tool, and it's one that we have, you know, helped to really promote in a FT was one of the initial catalysts and, and, and help to create land trusts since there are, you know, there are about 3000 land trusts around the, the country that, that do exactly what you just said. They, they help to hold easements that have a restriction on what that land can be used for. And in many times, and, and, and we're a little bit of a different land trust in that we're an agricultural land trust, we only do farmland. That's our focus. And so, you know, when we think about that in the, kind of the context of where we're at today with the pandemic going on, I think it really can help to open people's eyes as to, you know, where does my food come from? How are we gonna make sure that we have that assurance? Because, you know, there's certain we can, we could actually go without toilet paper for, for a while, you know, probably forever if we really went back to the, you know, doing it the old fashioned way. And we can't do that with food. Food is an absolute need. It, it, it's just like clean water. You have to have those things and farmland provides those kind of values.

Vance Crowe [00:07:11] Yeah, and it's interesting because I have always been like, oh, I like local farmers and I know people that, that sell their chickens or their a little bit of beef or a quarter, but I'd never really been like, Hey, this is an important part of my own personal supply chain. And

John Larson [00:07:29] When

Vance Crowe [00:07:29] I went to the store and I realized, hey, if I buy up all this meat, there's, the only other option that these people have is, is just to not have meat. So I bought a modest amount, and this was a few weeks before, but then I got online and I found local farms around me and I started ordering from them. And it was a such a feeling of empowerment to know that there was a farmer that's 30 minutes away raising their own chickens and pork and, and beef, and they could box it up and bring it to me. And everybody wins in that scenario. But it doesn't happen if you don't preserve the land.

John Larson [00:08:04] Right. And, you know, that is the, the base that is the foundation of the reason why the trust exists is that we work with farmers to have alternatives and options to just selling to development. You know, one of the, one of the pieces I'll, I'll, I'll take a little rabbit trail on this, is one of the pieces that we helped to get into the 2018 Farm bill that works directly in relationship to this is a process called Buy protect Sell. And, and it's basically so that an organization such as ours as American Farmland Trust can work with a landowner that wants to keep that land in farming that wants to protect that, that resource for future generations to grow food and, and fiber and f and and feed, you know, for, for livestock. And what that process does is it allows for us as an entity to brought by that farmland, put a conservation easement on that land, and then sell it to a another farmer. When you

Vance Crowe [00:09:12] Say put a conservation easement on it, you mean what, what does that mean?

John Larson [00:09:17] So the conservation easement is that restricted title that it has to stay in farming. And so what we would do is we would potentially pay that farmer for the, you know, the, the, the value that it's worth right now today, whether that's development or whatever it is, depending upon their proximity to where development's happening, then we would protect it. Put that easement on there that says, no, this is now protected. The deed actually has a restriction on it that it can only be sold for farmland in perpetuity into the future. And then we would sell it to another farmer or a beginning farmer for that matter.

Vance Crowe [00:09:58] And what does that do to the price of the land when it can only be used for that future? For that future thing? It's, it can only be farmland.

John Larson [00:10:06] Yeah. So it's at, it's at thin farm value and, and many places have an ability to do purchase at, at ag value and, and AV an option to purchase at ag value. And, and many states have those kind of policies in place too that protected in that way also. So it does limit that development potential.

Vance Crowe [00:10:29] I mean, I, I, I think that's fine if, if, if what you've decided to do in the same way that a farmer that makes a decision, Hey, we're gonna go pull the oil out of the ground underneath us. You're making a decision, you're selling that, that right, that mining right to somebody else. I had never seen it this way before and until you and I met and we had a very good conversation when I realized like, that's actually a really ingenious idea. And if the farm owner that sells their land like that drives that money back into the, the way that they're doing their farm operation, you could really double down on it in a way.

John Larson [00:11:02] Yeah. It's been a very, very productive tool for cer and, and again, it's a voluntary decision on the part of the landowner. You, you just said that, but one of, I mean, there are examples across our country of, of folks that have done exactly what we just said. They sell that development value, they get that influx of money. One example that I can tell you is in, in Marin County, just north of San Francisco, wanting to protect the dairies in that region and protect that farmland from, from development people wanting to get outta San Francisco. And so putting those conservation easements on allowed there to be enough of an influx of capital back into that operation that many then converted to organic dairy, which right now is a significantly higher value in, in what they're selling. And they have been successful to the point that they're able to then purchase land next to them to bring into their operation and grow. And so that, you know, when you look at that kind of a scenario right now in ag that's kind of unusual. That's, you know, it's not the most profitable industry. And so there is a, you know, an absolute positive outcome of the decision they made to protect that land and then for it to be made into an extremely profitable endeavor.

Vance Crowe [00:12:32] Where does the money for your fund come from?

John Larson [00:12:36] So there are a number of different funding sources. Many, you know, the Marin County example, they have a local assessment and, and a tax that they do within their county to, to build that fund that then helps to fund those restrictions.

Vance Crowe [00:12:58] Oh, tax dollars are used for that.

John Larson [00:13:01] Yep. Yep.

Vance Crowe [00:13:01] I didn't know that. And

John Larson [00:13:03] And so it, there's a multitude of different ways that the funds are, are, are raised, you know, ourselves. We have had, you know, donors that have wanted to protect land that have donated significant amounts of cash to us to help us to be able to go out and work with producers to protect that land.

Vance Crowe [00:13:27] I could see a city like St. Louis say, Hey, here's a bunch of people in this town and we wanna make sure that the next pandemic that comes, whether it's 10 years from now or a hundred years from now, we've got farmland around here. We want diversified agriculture. Let's invest into this fund for the future of our is is that right? Are cities doing, I mean, I guess that's kind of what you're describing, isn't it?

John Larson [00:13:47] Yes, ab absolutely vance. It's, it, it it's one of those, again, it's a voluntary kind of a process by which people say, no, we want to do this. We wanna have the ability to protect that farmland for, you know, our, our our future. Because that's what it is. You know, I don't know if you have seen our, our, our bumper, our bumper stickers, but we developed this slogan decades ago and it's no farms, no food. And it's, it's a very, it's a very kind of simplistic statement, but it's so real and it's applicable everywhere. It's not just a small farm thing next to a city. It, it's the same for every size, for every part of the ag production industry. And so, you know, we're working hard to make sure we are looking at how as a organization do we help the farmers and ranchers to be both sustainable in the context of not just, you know, the the, the future, but also in the immediate. And, and one of the things that we're doing in relationship to this, this pandemic is we created what we call our farmer relief fund. And it's a, it's a fund that a hundred percent, we have made the decision in the organization that 100% of the dollars that we raise are going to farmers.

John Larson [00:15:18] We're gonna take care of all of the, you know, kind of the administrative work of making that happen. That's, that's gonna be our cost. If you donate to this fund, it goes to farmers. And what we're seeing is that

Vance Crowe [00:15:33] Farmers to do what,

John Larson [00:15:35] So specifically one of the, the, the groups that have been impacted the most are these farmers that have been doing direct sales. So, you know, with no one going to restaurants right now, we, we have farmers, you know, I, I'm in in in Minneapolis now, but for eight years I was in northern Virginia. And so we, we know a farmer in, in northern Virginia where he was providing his livestock, you know, that was pork, beef, chicken to restaurants in the DC metro area. Hi. His market is completely gone right now. And, and so this fund that we've created is helping those direct market folks, and it's not a, it's not a, you know, $2 trillion stimulus

Vance Crowe [00:16:29] Package.

John Larson [00:16:30] Nothing

Vance Crowe [00:16:30] Is, those are imaginary,

John Larson [00:16:32] You know, it, it, it, it is, it's, it's a small amount of money. But our hope is, is that with a small amount of money that farmers, such as Billy that I'm talking about in Northern Virginia, will have the opportunity to create a new market, to look at new opportunities to do exactly what you just said potentially. And that's find a butcher and, and a place where he can now provide that, that, you know, livestock that he produces so that it can go to local communities so they can buy it there. That's,

Vance Crowe [00:17:03] Man, you on something I think is so important. Like right now, one of the biggest impediments to taking these small farms that you're talking about and getting that meat into the hands of people in my community is slaughtering facilities. It's the processing facilities. And man, I hope we can solve that because you're right, the, the, these farms, they do sell, they, we, we spent the last 10, 15 years building up a restaurant system that was soaking up that local food. And if those are shut down, then the very people, the very farmers that are best poised to get us what we need during this time, that's a real vulnerability, man. Good, good for you. So I'm, yes, I go, go ahead, I'm sorry.

John Larson [00:17:45] You know, it's one of those things where, you know, a lot of my colleagues, they had this idea and our CEO John PTI was like, this is absolutely what we need to do. And so we're all working tr trying to not only, you know, raise the awareness for corporate folks and others that have the resources to donate right now, but also for farmers. And I, and I just got an update from John that said, we have over 400 farmers that have signed up. We just launched this the day before yesterday.

Vance Crowe [00:18:20] Oh my God, I didn't realize that. The, I'm the, so I, I guess the only, I, I have one maybe request or thought is if you have guys that have meat and they were delivering it to restaurants, is there a way that somebody could sign up and, and buy it for their community and put a quarter away or anything like that? Or is this a, a bridge too far right now?

John Larson [00:18:42] So I hope so. You know, I think that certain states have different rules and regulations how that direct kind of sale can happen.

Vance Crowe [00:18:52] Let's hope that Overton window is broken wide open and we make that happen more directly.

John Larson [00:18:57] Yes. Well, you think about it in the context of farmer's markets also, you know, we're trying to work really hard with helping communities to understand that, you know, a farmer's market is almost as essential, if not more essential in the context that we're talking about right now, Vince, that the, the distancing and the, you know, essential business aspect of a farmer's market should be part of what they're thinking because that could be the venue where you get some of these producers to sign up and to become part of the market, which then could give them that access and, and, and ability to get those things that they've worked so hard to, to raise to the people that need them right now.

Vance Crowe [00:19:44] Yeah. And you know, when you look at, when you look at the, the number of people or the amount of calories eaten from a farmer's market versus a grocery store, it can seem like a trite kind of thing. And I remember doing the pat on the head of like, oh, it's cute that you do that, but then you think about like the diversification and the fact that right now, my grocery store locally, which has done an amazing job, they have been worked relentlessly. Those poor people are driving so much harder than they've ever driven before. But if I ordered groceries on Thursday night, I can't get 'em delivered until Monday. And if I, you know, I'm in the fortunate position of having a large amount of supplies, I'm gonna be okay. But there are other people that either didn't plan or didn't have time or working or the refrigerator goes wrong. You gotta have those outlets where people can go to and thank God people like you are out there doing what you're doing, man.

John Larson [00:20:36] Well we, we really see this as one of those times where, again, we don't wanna be seen as opportunistic, but we wanna be seen as

Vance Crowe [00:20:44] Providing service. This is the opportunity, right? Chaos is, is a ladder and opportunity and crisis are the same thing, right. So I I want to ask you about your, you and your family, you guys, what is it like up in Minnesota where, where, what is, what's the coronavirus doing there?

John Larson [00:21:00] Yeah, so we're good. You know, it's my wife and I and the dog and, and you know, staying home, doing our part to, to make sure that, you know, we, we both feel fine, but you just never know if you're out and about and you, you get exposed. You know, my, I I was born and raised in Washington state and so I have family, you know, my parents live 60 miles from Seattle and you know, dad's gonna be 80 this year. So it's one of those where we really, you know, and, and, and my daughter lives here in Minneapolis with her fiance also, and they're, you know, she's a preschool teacher, so she's shut down. But really, I I, I had to give her kudos, you know, before we really got into this. And, and people were saying it, she said, you know, social distancing is different than social isolation. And so she and her brother, my son and and myself and the rest of my family are reaching out to our parents who are, you know, they're staying in the house. They've got a big chest freezer and, you know, every, they're, you know, they can make it for weeks. And, and so trying to keep them from not feeling isolated, but protecting that, which is really important right now. And that distancing from, from exposure because I have a, a really good friend who's lost family and, and, and a next door neighbor to this virus.

John Larson [00:22:33] And, and so, oh

Vance Crowe [00:22:34] My God, you're the first person I know that said that.

John Larson [00:22:37] Yeah. And, and, and, and so that's one of those where, you know, it's easy to, and, and trust me, I'm, I I, I wonder sometimes, you know, and, and it's the, the flip back and forth on the remote to figure out who's telling the closest thing to the troop when, when you know people and, and when they share with you such, you know, just devastation. It, it, it makes it so that it's you, you, you can't, you can't discount it and you can't, you know, diminish the, the things that we can all do. And I would rather error on the side of being way more cautious and protecting life than saying, well, you know, it's not gonna impact me very much. So, you know, I'm gonna continue my routine.

Vance Crowe [00:23:29] Yeah. There's been very few times in my life where I've had a pit in my stomach because I over-prepared, right. But there have been times when you realize I, I was not ready, or I didn't, I didn't think it was gonna get that serious. And it did. So final question, I've asked all the guests this, which is, where do you think the world will be in two weeks?

John Larson [00:23:51] Wow. That's, it's a, it's a, it's a great question, Vance. You know, I'm hoping in two weeks that we just better understand where we are because I think a lot of decisions are trying to be made without a full, you know, plate of data. And when we do that, I, I just fear that, you know, I ha I have another one of those situations and, and it's not nearly as bad of loss of life, but my daughter's supposed to be getting married in June and in Hawaii. And, and so, you know, she and her fiance are now trying to figure out how, you know, what, what do they do? You know, Hawaii's in a, you know, the, if you arrive, you get to be quarantined for two weeks right now. And that the understanding I have, based upon what I've seen is a decree that the governor's made through May 20th. Well, they're supposed to get, supposed to get married on June 11th. So, you know, there's not very much separation there. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:24:57] So

John Larson [00:24:58] Trying to help that young couple to figure out, okay, what do we do? You know, we're, we're helping with the cost of the wedding. And, and, and I've already told him don't worry about that part of it, but it's the, you know, the friends and the family, you know, my daughter doesn't want to do the wedding without her grandparents there. And, you know, my future son-in-law, her fiance doesn't want, wanna do the wedding without his parents there. And it's like, I completely understand, but they've already put so much time, you know, over a year of effort into planning and, and making everything perfect for their special day. And now this is impacting that. And so, you know, to, to, to take way more time than I should have to answer your two weeks from now, I just hope we have better understanding of what we're doing, why we're doing it, what more we need to do, and then what that looks like as we move forward.

Vance Crowe [00:25:56] Amen. Well, if people wanted to get ahold of you, whether to learn more about the trust because they're a farmer in the situation you're describing, or they're interested in contributing and trying to help out your project, how, what's the best way to do that?

John Larson [00:26:10] Yeah, so the best way is to go to the a f AFT website, which is www.farmland.org. That's our website. And when you get to that, that homepage, when you scroll down, that farmer relief fund will be right there. And on that, on that page right there will be both the ability to donate and, and be part of helping these farmers and ranchers to get through this tough time. But then also in that same spot is the place for individuals that are impacted, that are farmers and ranchers to apply for this fund.

Vance Crowe [00:26:52] Well, great. I, John, I really appreciate it. You know, you had said something earlier about, you know, trying not to have social isolation and it reminded me that the, my podcast is done a book club, the as the Crow Flies Book Club, and we're gonna do it on Sunday and I'll put out a link on my Twitter. But you're welcome to join us. It's a very simple book, very quick book you've maybe read before Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. I don't know if you've ever read that book, but it is about 60 pages long. So we're gonna keep doing that in order to have some level of normalcy in our lives. And John, thank you so much for your time on this. I appreciate what you guys do and, and thanks for jumping on here, even though it's such a crazy coronavirus time.

John Larson [00:27:33] Yeah. Well, I really appreciate what you're doing, Vance. I think that your podcast is great and I, I really appreciate the offer to come on and to share with you.

Vance Crowe [00:27:43] Thanks, John. We'll, we'll, we'll be in touch.

John Larson [00:27:46] Thank you.