Retired Police Officer Shares Stories from 20+ Years on the Force

Vance Crowe [00:00:00] You know, I still work for the National Hockey League. When I first started, we sat in the penalty box during the game, which is kind of neat to sit in the penalty box with like Tony Twist or Kelly Chase after they fought some guy, you know, on the ice, sat in the bullpens, sat in the dugouts, shook hands with President Bush first, president Bush on the detail. Spent the day of John McCain. An old saying on the police department is, you know, this badge is a, you know, first road ticket for the greatest show on Earth. 'cause you get to do all these things. I'm Steven Fairbanks, a writer and teacher from St. Louis, Missouri, and you're listening to the Vance Crowe podcast. Welcome Back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Today we're gonna do something a little different than a regular interview. I had a man named John Frank, a retired police officer into the studio to record a legacy interview. What you're about to see are excerpts from that interview where John talks about is childhood, his career, how he raised his family, and some of the wisdom that he's learned along the way. Normally Legacy Interviews are deeply personal things and it's been very difficult to even want to share this with the broader public. I want people to feel completely relaxed because one of the things we do best at Legacy Interviews is we help people show who they really are so that the future can know who they really were. John was gracious enough to let us share parts of his interview and what you're about to see. And if you're only listening on audio, I would encourage you to go to YouTube is a really amazing experience.

Vance Crowe [00:01:31] If you are interested in having me capture your loved ones as they really are, go to Legacy Interviews dot com to find out more. Alright, onto the legacy interview, open session with John Frank. To start off, would you say and spell your full name? John Frank. J-O-H-N-F-R-A-N-K. And where Are the Franks from? On both sides of my family. We have German and Irish and I don't think we have a whole lot of other in, in there, but You know, I don't go Too far back in my genealogy. None of my family members have taken an interest in it. So I know my dad's side of the family came from camps. Camps, Phil, Illinois, small town. But we lived in the city of St. Louis for, you know, generations now. And what's your mother's maiden name? She's a Powers and her mom was a Kramer. My dad was German Irish, you know, Frank is German and my grandmother was McKnight. We, we celebrate October Fest and St. Patrick's Day, so. So if they've been here for generations, what kind of work were they doing? You know, my dad was an attorney, you know, personal injury attorney, mom. My mom was a housewife, but my grandfather on my mom's side was a St. Louis police officer from 1930 to 1970, I guess I get, you know, the, the gene from him. But when I was a kid I had no interest in his police stories.

Vance Crowe [00:03:05] And you know, he, he'd like to sit down and tell these long stories and, you know, I wasn't interested at all until I got on the department. Then he was really old and I kind of missed out on, on that. 'cause I wish I would've talked to him more about, you know, his time on department back in those days. What kind of man was he? He was a tough, you know, Irish cop, you know, he was a hardheaded. He never got promoted even though he was on for 40 years. And he would, you know, he'd admit, you know, if he thought something wasn't right, he would stand up and speak his mind. And, and, and later my dad became a police commissioner, which was appointed by the governor back then. And I think his main motivation was to help people, police officers like my grandfather who worked their butts off for all those years and never got promoted. And I, I've had a lot of people tell me over the years how good of a police report writer he was. And he loved to write. And even when I go over to his house, my brother and I go over there, he had a typewriter and he'd, he'd type out stories just for, for fun. He was a really good storyteller, really good, really good writer. But they would put young coppers with him to, to learn, you know, to teach him how to write good police reports. Young Coppers. Right. That's a term that hasn't Been used in a while. What kind, what Did a cop do back then? How was it different than now? Back then, the, they didn't, they were more centered on walking a beat.

Vance Crowe [00:04:42] They didn't have miniature radios back then. The technology wasn't even there. They, they had the call boxes, but you know, you walked the beat and you knew everybody on your beat. And I remember my grandfather saying back then they only had two days off a month and no vacation. So basically you got 24 days off a year. And I asked them one time, I said, wasn't that kind of hard or didn't, that kind of sucked only having two days off a month. And he's like, you didn't want to be off 'cause you didn't wanna miss anything. And two, you know, he had a f you know, he had a, you know, fairly large family and cops didn't make any money back then, Harley, but on your beat there would be a butcher that would give you a roast to take home. And, and you know, the clothier would give you a suit and you would, you would get these things from all these business owners on your beat, which helped supplement your income. And you didn't want to be off 'cause you didn't want some other guy filling guy getting your, your hat or your, or your pot roasts. But there was a lot more cops, there was a lot more, probably a lot less crime. It seems like. They, they maybe they even had a little bit more fun back then 'cause they had time to get out and meet people and get to know the neighbors on the beat. You know, we tried to do that when, when I was on, we were in the housing authority unit, which was a new unit that had four public housing complexes and we walked every day.

Vance Crowe [00:06:14] And it was, 'cause if you're a bad guy, you can see a police car coming three blocks away. If we park in an alley and walk through a gangway, they don't see you coming. But what also, the neighbors see you walking around and it makes them feel better. And you get to use all your, your senses. You, not only do you see things, you smell things, you hear things, you, you can know a lot more what's going on. You know, hear dogs barking, you know, maybe, you know, indicate a prowler in the neighborhood or, or whatever. But you know, I know they don't have enough officers now to, to where they can walk a beat like my grandfather did. And they're busy handling calls. But I, I wish they would get back to it. And if they do get to the point where they have extra officers, let 'em walk the streets, let 'em let, let 'em meet some of the neighbors, let 'em get to know some of the business owners. I think it's really important, you know, as far as that rapport, because a lot of people don't call the police 'cause they don't trust the police. They don't either they think they won't do anything or they, they're afraid they're gonna get in trouble or somebody's gonna find out they called. But once you have that, whatever level of trust, people are more apt to cooperate. And like down in the housing complexes, we got to know the people who lived there and we knew who belonged and who didn't. But once these people know that you're, you're there to help them and, and that you're not some kind of crazed police officer.

Vance Crowe [00:07:48] They, you know, you, you would get calls later, you know, hey, the guy that you really wanted to, you know, to, to stop had the green shirt on. He's walking this way now and you don't get that if, unless you have that rapport. What was your grandmother like? My grandmother, my mom's side. She, she was a nice little lady. She, she took care of the family. She didn't say a lot. I I I, I never really got to know her that well because she, my grandfather did all the talking, you know, so, but she was very pleasant, the good cook, you know. But she was quiet. We spent more time with my grandmother on, on my dad's side, so like if, you know, like for babysitting and stuff like that. So just nice person. What was your other grandfather like? Never knew him. I think I was probably one or two when he passed away. But he worked for something to do with the trans, you like buses and and whatnot in St. Louis. But my grandmother, who we call granny, she, she's the one that, you know, we'd go over and spend a weekend with her all the time. She's a real fun loving lady and you know, great sense of humor. And she was Irish. And I remember my, especially when I got to be like, you know, a little bit older that a couple times my dad called me and said on St. Patrick's Day, she loves St. Patrick's Day. It was like her day. And you know, my dad says like, well your grandmother, we can't find your grandmother.

Vance Crowe [00:09:21] Go out and hit some of the bars, see if you can find her. And I, and I go in some Irish bar and she'd be holding court at the end of the bar and, you know, just laughing and having fun and she'd lost track of time, you know, she didn't know. But she's having such a good time. And, and my aunt lived with my grandmother at the time and she was real fun loving too, you know, and she was single and, and we'd go over there and we'd just, we, we had a lot of fun. My bro, my brother's three and a half years younger than me and I, you know, we spent almost every weekend with them. They lived down at Miami and Michigan. So it was kind of a neat neighborhood. You could, back then, you could walk down Chippewa Street and they had confection areas and, you know, little bakeries and butcher shops and stuff. It was, it was, it was, it was neat, you know, it was a nice, we looked forward to the weekends and my parents looked forward to it. 'cause they, they got rid of us for 48 hours. It was, it was, it was a neat time. Was she a good cook? She wasn't a, I don't remember her being a, a great cook. It was simple stuff that she got one, even before, like those George Foreman girls, she had this little hamburger maker and she'd make us hamburgers and, and which was, when you're a kid, that's, that's all you want anyway. And we, we didn't need anything fancy, but, and just stay up late watch movies. Just, it was, it was, it was, it was fun. And my aunt just passed away last year. She ended up getting married, like when she was in her forties.

Vance Crowe [00:10:53] And, and, you know, met this great guy and they, they were married for 40 years and, and both of 'em passed away within the last year. So they, they were a big part of our family. 'cause my, my mom died when my kids were real little. And then my dad died three years later. So, and my wife's mom died before they were born and then her father died. So my kids really didn't have any grandparents other than my aunt and my uncle. So they were surrogate, you know, grandparents for my kids, which was kind of neat. You know, we got a small family. You know, it's just weird to me, like when you talk to people about Thanksgiving and say, well we're having 30 people over. It's like, we, you know, it, there's like five or six of us usually. And I just, you know, it's hard to kind of fathom that for me. 'cause we've always just been small and kind of a tight knit family. What was your dad like? You know, he was, he was a neat guy. He, and the word like a lot of people use when they talk about him is he was larger than life. You, you know, I know it's a cliche, but he, you knew he was there. He, and he wasn't like loud and obnoxious, but he just had a very strong personality. Like I said, he was a trial attorney, very successful. But he never moved outta South St. Louis, you know, we grew up down around Francis Park and you know, all the other lawyers seemed to live out in West County or Ladue or whatever.

Vance Crowe [00:12:28] But we stayed in the city and my brother and I went to public school and, and I think it was a, a neat part of our upbringing is instead of going to, to a fancy private school, to go to a public school. 'cause it was kind of a, a diverse group of people, but back then you didn't think of it in those terms. You know, it's just, that's Joe, you know, wherever Joe's from or whatever Joe looks like, Joe is just Joe, you know. And, but it was, it was a fun atmosphere. It was, it was a safe atmosphere with great teachers. And, you know, I really think that helped. And a lot of us became cops even though none of us ever talked about being policemen when we were in, in high school or grade school. But, you know, it just was kind of a natural, natural progression for a lot of us. Why do you think your parents chose to go that route as opposed to the private school West County route? I I think, you know, my, my dad went to Roosevelt High School. My mom went to Cleveland High School, you know, they were public, you know, they always lived in the city. I lived in the city till I was 40 and I moved out just 'cause my kids were little. And I, I was the opposite. I was like, I wanna take my kids. And, you know, we went out to Wentzville area and just, it was, I just thought it was a safer place for them to grow up. But, but my dad was always, you know, he liked living in the city.

Vance Crowe [00:14:03] He liked, he always said that that's where a lot of political power is. Not that he was a politician per se, but he, he did like to have some say. So the, just like being on the police board, and he was on the Port commission for a while. He, he was on the, the stadium commission when they were trying to get a football team here. And he, he was part of all that negotiations of building the, the dome downtown and going out to LA and, and luring the, the Rams here. You know, he was a big part of that. So he, he was, he was, he was involved in the community and I really think that he, he felt like he had more power, was more involved by living in the city rather than being in the county. So what was your mom like? My mom was great. Sh she was a housewife, but very good nature, very, you know, fun person. My dad was this big, larger than life figure. And she was just the calm, you know, fun loving, just the counterweight, you know. And, but my dad did whatever my mom, you know, told him to do though too, you know, you know, so it, it was, they had a great marriage. They had a lot of fun together. They, they traveled a lot, but they, they had parties at the house a lot. They had their friends over. We'd go to, you know, nothing pretentious about him at all.

Vance Crowe [00:15:39] My dad did, you know, his one thing, you know, we had just a normal St. Louis Hills house. Nothing extravagant. You, he, he loved to work in the yard and you know, he won a couple like lawn and garden awards from the neighborhood. But he, his one extravagance is he won some big case and he ended up going over to London and he bought a Rolls Royce and had it shipped back. And that was, that was his extravagance. And he had to have a, a, you know, we had a two car garage. He had to have another, you know, slot, you know, built on longer ones so he could pull his big roll Royce. And, and he only drove it, you know, eight or 10 times a year probably. But it was always a big deal, you know, you know, seeing dad or, you know, he'd go, he'd go down, he'd go to Ace Hardware in his Rolls Royce, you know, and get a bag of mulch, you know, and people, people would stop what they were doing to see. But they know they, both my parents had a good sense of humor and they were fun loving people, fun to be around. And my mom and my dad were really good cooks. So we, you know, we ate well. And what do you remember that they cooked? You know, my dad liked to fry chicken. He liked, he liked to barbecue. My mom made more of the casseroles and the pot roasts and things like that. They always had a big corn, beef and cabbage, you know, and St Patrick's Day, as you can tell, it was a big, still is a big deal in our family.

Vance Crowe [00:17:16] And I always say St. Patrick's day's, it's the only day of the year. It's cool to have red hair too, because everybody loves a redhead guy on St. Patrick's Day. But no, it, you know, on Sundays my dad would make chili and grow some hotdog. We'd watch, you know, when football, you know, football cardinals. And later when the Rams got here and, you know, when pay-per-view first started, he'd get those pay-per-view. Like Mike Tyson fights and, you know, he'd say, Hey, you know, get all your buddies, have 'em come over and you know, he, those Tyson fights before you got your first bite of your chili. It was over usually. 'cause you know, iron Mike would knock 'em out in the first couple seconds. But it was just great memories. And my, my my friends always seemed to love my dad. 'cause he was down to earth and he'd sit there and talk to 'em and ask 'em about, you know, their jobs or their girlfriends or, you know, whatever. But he was just one of the guys. And he always had a big refrigerator full of beer. He didn't drink beer that much, but he always kept it for us. And, and it was fun. It was, it was, it was a great, great upbringing. You mentioned your mom was a housewife. What were the appliances like back then? What was she using? You know, I remember they didn't ha they had a dishwasher, but it, it wasn't the under counter type. It was the one that was on wheels and you had to roll it over. You, you ever see one of those, I guess it was an earlier one. You, you would sit in the corner and it would be on wheels and she would roll it over to the sink.

Vance Crowe [00:18:49] And then it had a hose that you would put on, you know, the spout and you plug it in and it would do wash your dishes. And then you would, I, I remember that when we were little, we had the first, my dad had to have the first VHS, you know, v you know, VCR Rec, you know, recorder. And you know, back then I, you know, there was only like 10 movies you could rent because, you know, it was, it was so new. And the thing was huge. But he, he, he liked electronics, you know, you know, he always had a nice stereo and ni you know, he always upgraded his televisions and, and things like that. So that was, that was kind of neat too. But yeah, we had, we'd always have a lot of people over, you know, kids come over to see, 'cause we had videotapes and, and to this day, like when movie slap shot comes on, we, my brother and I can re recite it word for word. 'cause we watch it, rewind it, watch it again. We might watch it four times in one day. And we did that for a whole summer. So that's, you know, indelibly etched in my mind, that whole movie. But, but it, yeah, but mom, you know, she kept a great house. They had a greenhouse added to the side of the house. It was really neat. It, we had a double lot, which was, which was really cool because that's like, when we were little kids, that was our football stadium and our baseball stadium and that.

Vance Crowe [00:20:26] And it seems like the neighborhood kids would all end up at, at our house. 'cause we would, we played sports every day, you know, according to what season it was. And, but then they put on this, this greenhouse, which was really neat. And then my dad got a, ended up buying him a car. It was named Big Red. And you know, you could see, you know, when you drove by, when people drive by, they could see the macaw in there and stuff. And he had all kinds of exotic plants in there. And it was, it, it was really cool. You know. So the neighbor Sounds like quite a character. Yeah, the neighbors knew we were around, you know, 'cause you, you know, he'd, he'd have big parties, you know, he had a luau one time and you know, you know, he'd have his whole office over and, and the friend, you know, it'd be like a two two day event. I think one day he'd have the whole office over. And back then he was with the Verson firm, H Verson Verson Frank. So they probably had, you know, 30, 40 employees and, and their spouses. And then the next day he'd have the friends of the family and the neighbors. He'd have a band. I remember Mayor Shael was at one of the, one of the parties, which was kind, he was at the luau. I got a picture of my dad and the mayor and a couple other people in the grass skirts, you know, doing, you know, hula dancing and stuff. So that it, it was fun, you know, fun loving guy. And, and one thing, the thing that amazes me and I tell my kids is when you went out to eat with my dad, he'd go to like the Ruth Chris Steakhouse or something, or he had a couple different favorite restaurants.

Vance Crowe [00:22:09] But it was, it, it was epic. I mean, you met at his house and, you know, for drinks beforehand. And then you sit there for a while and talk and then, you know, we get in the car, we drive to the restaurant, and then he would get furious if they tried to take your order too soon. 'cause he had to have, you know, two or three, you know, cocktails before. And then, then he'd order the appetizers and more cocktails. And then finally you're there like two hours and now you're ordering dinner. And then he had to order wine with dinner. And then you ate these huge meals. And then he would order like a black Russian or white Russian after, after dinner. And then look at the, you know, the dessert menu. Then you go, you know, you get done there. And you know, he'd buy people at other tables, drinks and, and you know, you like you knew everybody in the restaurant by the time you left. And then you go home, then you go back to his house and then have another, you know, another beer or something before he went home. And luckily at one point we lived right next door to my parents. So that, that made it a little bit easier. Same thing with lunch. You go to lunch at, at 1130, you know, lunch would be over at five. You know, so he was, and he'd talk to anybody and, and he was a great storyteller and just a gregarious guy, but down to earth.

Vance Crowe [00:23:44] And I remember when he died, you know, a lot of the people who showed up at the funeral home were like busboy. And, and that from these restaurants he would go to, 'cause he, you know, he would tip 'em real well, you know, they kept his water glass full. And, and he, he was a down earth guy, you know, he never, he never lost that south side kind of everyday guy persona. You know, if he drove by there on a Sunday, he'd be out there in his, you know, with his headband on, you know, digging a hole, you know, planting something, you know, working in his yard. He had a fountain in the backyard. And, and a, he was a character. He was definitely a character. It's a lot of drinking. Was it an advantage or a vice? My dad, I would never see him drunk, was, I'd see him drink a lot, but he, he was always under control, wouldn't slur his words, didn't, you know, get angry or, or goofy or anything. He just, he was always in control. And I, I think he kind of just mastered it, you know, he just, and I remember Father Tulsky was a, a teacher at the berg of my brother, friend of the family. And we were never like a big religious family. We didn't, we didn't go to church regularly or anything. But Father Tulsky just was a good friend of the family through my brother, neat guy.

Vance Crowe [00:25:21] And he, he decided one day he was gonna, he could out drink my dad and he brought like a case of beer over and they sat down and, you know, an hour and a half later Father Tulsky was snoring and, you know, in, in my dad's living room. And, and my dad was like, you know, watching something on tv. So mini, mini challenged dad, but I don't think, I don't think anybody ever beat him. And then what year were you born? 62. And what kind of kid were you growing up? I th you know, I was a good student or I was smart, but I wouldn't say I was a good student 'cause I, I didn't really apply myself as much as, as I probably should have. I liked school for the social part of it and I didn't enjoy studying and, and, and that, so I got good grades for the most part. But I could have applied myself more. I don't have any real regrets 'cause they kind of took me on my path that I, I ended up on and you know, I never did graduate from college. And my dad always said, you know, you'll, you'll never be anything unless you have a college degree. And, but a lot of that's luck. I fell into the, the police job and I, I would like to tell the story of how, how that happened is I was at Mizzou and Mizzou was way too much for me.

Vance Crowe [00:26:55] 'cause there was 900 opportunities every day to go out and do something fun. Had a lot of good friends. That's where I met my wife. But it was like my junior year and the midterms for the day after Halloween. And I was supposed to stay home and study for the midterms, but there was like 10 Halloween parties going on, you know, so I, anyway, I went out, I went out for Halloween with my buddies and didn't study at all. And the next day I, I lived off campus. I woke up and I was driving in campus and I hadn't studied for any of these tests and, and I knew I was gonna flunk 'em anyway, so I, and I remember this clear as day, I just sitting at a stoplight, I rolled my window down and I threw my books out the window and just made a U-turn and went back home and went back to bed. Right. Well, I ended up staying there for the rest of the semester and I live with my brother and he's an attorney now. My brother Joe and Joe got straight a Joe never had anything lust than an a i, I don't think ever. And so he kept going to classes and getting his ass and I, I just, I was just kind of floating around in Columbia, hanging out with my, my buddies and that. Well, we get home for the summer and report cards came. So I got the mail. Well, I left my brothers in there and I took mine and you know, my mom's like, well, your brother got straight A's and he's, congratulations Joe Frank, you've attained the dean's list and blah blah.

Vance Crowe [00:28:33] So she goes, where's yours at? And I said, you know, I took a couple classes. They probably didn't turn the, you know, the, the grades in or whatever. So finally she just stops me like a few weeks later says, where, where's your report card? You know, and I said, I go, I got all Fs or incompletes or whatever. And so my dad kept saying, you either gotta go get back in school or you gotta get a job. You're not just gonna sit, sit around here, which is correct. And so I didn't really look too hard for a job either. So one day my dad was on the police board and a good friend of the family, George Hoecker, who was a captain on the police department, would come over and he'd take my dad out at night, like on a Friday night. And they'd go ride around the city, you know, listen, 'cause my dad had, back then the police commissioners had police cars that they would give him unmarked cars. But, but we'd just ride around and, you know, George would take us on calls and stuff. And this one particular night we drove way up by Calvary Cemetery and we pulled in the, the parking lot of this gas station. And George turns on and goes, you, you know why we're here? And I said no. And he goes, well I found you a job. Your dad told me to find you a job. I know the guy that owns this place. Well this was Friday night and it was, there was people out everywhere, you know, there was rats running around and, and, and there's guys hanging out out front selling drugs and stuff.

Vance Crowe [00:30:10] And he goes, yeah, you know, next week you start working here from like, you know, 10:00 PM to like four in the morning. And I, and I got, I was sick to my stomach and I'm like, I'm looking around 'cause I never seen anything like this before. You know, it was just that this, this, this really crazy place. So we got back in the car and I'm like, I said, I'm, I'm sick to my stomach and I'm like, oh my God, they're gonna kill me up here. So we went to, you ever heard of Recinos restaurant? It was at Sarah and West Pine over there, just west of St. Louis University. It was a great Italian place, not there anymore. It was in the basement of this apartment building. And you, you would like hit your head on the, on the rafters and stuff if you didn't. But it was a great place and a lot of policemen hung out there and George took us there first time I had had ever been there. And so I'm sitting there and I'm just sitting in the booth with my dad and George and I'm like, ah. And so right then the Skywalks in with Smiles McDonald, he's a liquor control agent. Every, everybody in St. Louis knows Miles. So, so anyway, we're sitting there, I meet him, he sits sit the booth with us and I said, Hey Miles, do you have any openings at Liquor Control? And he's like, a matter of fact we do, you know, somebody just quit or whatever. So Miles got me an application like that mon following Monday and like a month later I was working for the state division of Liquor Control, which saved me from this job up in, you know, in the gas station.

Vance Crowe [00:31:44] But I met all these police officers doing, you know, 'cause we'd worked with, you know, like the device division and the detective bureaus and that closing down these, these bars and that, that, you know, into nefarious things. So I really got interested in, in police work and I, you know, I just met a lot of interesting policemen. So I went to my dad and said, you know, do you think it's a good idea I if I apply for the police department? He said, yeah. And so I did and I got in, you know, and I never looked back from there, but it, it was, it was just a fortunate set of circumstances. I loved my time at Liquor Control. That was a lot of fun. I was like 23 years old and, you know, to have all that power and that, but I learned from great people like Miles and Kevin Klu and Bill Torn were my bosses. And, and, but it, I really, they had a lot of good relationships with these good, good police officers. And it, it, it just, you know, that light went on for me. And like I said earlier, it just, it was a perfect job for me. You know, being a policeman. I love being out, you know, you have a certain amount of freedom. I don't, you know, don't wanna work in an office even though, you know, there are jobs in the police department where they're more office related. But, but most of the time I spend on the street, you know, you get that, you know, you become, a lot of us become adrenaline drunky. So several times a week, you know, you get, you know, or you really get, you know, everything gets, you know, call for a hold up in progress or something like that or shooting and you get that adrenaline rush.

Vance Crowe [00:33:26] But then there's a lot of times you just meet so many neat people. Police officers to me are interesting and, and there's so many fascinating, funny people. You meet in the public and you get to help people out and you get to do and you get to go places. Other people don't get to do go, like we talk on our podcast is sometimes we ask the question, what is something that you did as a police officer that you probably never would've had the opportunity to do if you weren't? And you know, I still work for the National Hockey League doing security. I'm like an alternate representative for St. Louis. But back in, you know, when I first started, we sat in a penalty box during the game, which is kind of neat, you know, to sit in the penalty box with like Tony Twist or Kelly Chase after they fought some guy, you know, on the ice, you know, and then they sit around and talk to you like, how's your day going? You know, it's like, well, not as exciting as yours. But you know, we, I've worked the baseball games, you know, my last day wearing the uniform, I was in the Cardinal's dugout working secondary, you know, and you know, they played the Cubs on a Sunday and Jerry Leach put me in the dugout, you know, just 'cause it was my last day. But sat in the bullpens, sat in the dugouts, shook hands with President Bush, the first President Bush on the detail, spent the day with Billy Graham protecting him, Jesse Jackson. Spent the day of John McCain, which was really neat.

Vance Crowe [00:34:59] So got to do a lot of things, see a lot, you know, go, go backstage at the Fox, you know, during a show. You know, stuff that people don't, don't like I said, don't get to do all that. Maybe you get the chance to do one or two of those things. An old saying on the police department is, you know, this badge is a, you know, first road ticket for the greatest show on earth. 'cause you get to do all these things, you know, you know, driving a hundred miles an hour down Kings Highway is, you know, pretty, you know, pretty adrenaline pumping. And back when I first came on, they, they didn't have as many restrictions on chasing cars as they do now. I personally had my own restrictions on, on it. 'cause it is, it's terrifying. But the thing is, the end doesn't always justify the means, especially if somebody gets hurt. Some innocent person gets t-boned by a, you know, a fleeing felon. You know, it's not worth it. Sometimes you can catch these people, you know, the the offenders in, in another way, you know, we to chase 'em for a block and turn our lights off like we gave up. But, you know, but we, and a lot of times you just kind of have to guess which way they're gonna go, but, or you just follow 'em until they get out and because I think they lost you and then you just grab 'em when, when they get out. So I I, I never liked the, the police pursuits and, and once I became a sergeant, I would cancel most of 'em.

Vance Crowe [00:36:30] Unless it was something really somebody wanted for some, something really heinous. It, it is just not worth it. When You were first starting out, there's a time after you get done with training and then there's a time when you're first in charge that that badge gives you, you know, power but also responsibility. What was something you saw that really knocked you back a little bit? The one thing that it hit me is that if you grow up in a normal kind of nice neighborhood and you have a, a normal functional family and you live in a nice house and, and orderly house, which you don't realize and it hits you pretty s pretty early on is when you go to work, you leave your nice neighborhood and you go into neighborhoods where things aren't as nice and you go in these houses that are, that you couldn't normally imagine if people live with the, the cockroaches on the floor, the walls, the ceiling. You open up a cabinet, they're on the inside of the cabinet door and, and, and you know, you know that there's things out there like that. But when you start seeing it eight times a day, you know, every day and you're used, you're just used to living that, you know, beaver cleaver lifestyle. And then you see how, you know, disadvantaged. Some people are how messed up some people are or are just like, if you're a kid, kids are kids.

Vance Crowe [00:38:08] But you grow up in different environments and you know, we're lucky enough that we grew up in an environment where, you know, we had money, we had, we had nice things. Our our our families kept the house nice. And, and we, our had everything we needed. You go into other environments where this kid's just an innocent kid, but you know, he sleeps on this dirty mattress on the floor and there's roaches and mice running around and he doesn't have enough to eat and he doesn't, or the right things to eat. But after a while, seeing that day after day after day, it, it gets, it gets kind of depressing. And that's what I told my son. I go, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna be excited when you first start and every day is gonna be the coolest day of your life. But then you get to the point where it's, you know, it's like, I, I don't wanna look at this stuff every day, all day anymore. And but then you, you just learn to, you know, I, I won't say learn to live with it, but you, you adapt to it and you go beyond that and just say, you know, they, they called me there because there's, there's a problem. They called the police and you try to help people out and, and do the best you can, you know, and or refer 'em to somebody may, that may be able to help him. But it's, it's usually you, you get called 'cause somebody emotions have gotten outta control and, and some two people, or two factions of people or whatever are upset with each other and, and they end up calling the police 'cause they can't resolve themselves.

Vance Crowe [00:39:47] And, and, and that gets, you know, and that gets old after a while. But you, another thing you realize though, and my advice to young cops, including my my son was the best, one of the best qualities you can have as a, as a police officer is learning how to chill people out and, and is if you can get people calm down in a quick manner and that's by not losing your temper and not not getting upset and it doesn't always work. Some people are just so hyped up that they, you know, that they're not going to, or they get more hyped if they see you being calm, they get more. But most people, if you're calm and you talk to 'em directly and calmly and say, Hey look, let's figure out how we can help you. I I can't do that while you're screaming. You know, and people take a deep breath and then they'll, they'll talk to you and then you'll, you'll find out what it is. And then, you know, you leave and hopefully everybody is, you know, calm or, and if somebody needs to go with you, if some, you know, if you find out, you know, some kid assaulted his mom and she, you know, and she wants 'em locked up, well then you take him with you. But, but if, and sometimes you have to calm your partner down, sometimes you have to calm other officers down. You know, you know, it's, but you, it's a part of police work. There's a lot of things you learn in the academy that you can't, you know, you can learn the laws and the rules and regulations and, and certain skills, but most of it you have to learn by, by doing it.

Vance Crowe [00:41:26] And, and you know, there are, there's some decent role playing in that, but it's being in, in an environment. And that's always the disadvantage cops have is you walk into a, a place, everybody there who lives there knows where everything is, what the situation is, who's who, who's the hot head, who's, you know, who's normal, who's dangerous, who's crazy. You don't know that you, you have to make an assessment in a very short period of time of what's going on here. And you can't just say, well this is too complicated. I'm gonna leave. You have to come up with some kind of resolution. So that's, that's the skill you, you need to learn. And that's what, you know, hopefully a lot of people who, if you're critical of the way an officer handles a certain situation, a lot of times it's just, you don't, maybe you don't make the right assessment. Maybe the person that you think is the instigator is really the victim just by the way everybody's acting. But you, and you can figure a lot of that out later. But if you get things calm right away, it makes it a whole lot easier to, to sort those things out. How Did your career progress? You know, Vance, I was lucky 'cause I, I, the moves I made on the police department were either up or lateral, but I never really went from like a, a glamorous position back to the street.

Vance Crowe [00:43:02] You know, I always, you know, I was in the ninth district, which is in Midtown, which was a neat place. We hit the central West End midtown all the way down to Jefferson. So it was a, and it was a good kind of a diverse area. You know, you, you're in a mansion up on the west end and then an hour later you're, you're at a liquor store down at Dr. King in Jefferson. So you got to see a lot, you know, a broad spectrum. It was, it was really neat back, especially back in those days. But then I gotta go to Mobile reserve, which is, you know, you, you ride the whole city high profile or you know, you're looking for guns and drugs and stickup men and things like that. So we got to do, and that was a crazy time. 'cause that was back when homicides, you know, gang violence was really prevalent back then. And, you know, a lot of people were getting shot and killed. We, you know, in mobile we got in shootouts a lot just 'cause we were going from the worst neighborhood in the city to the second worst neighborhood in the city. You know, we were in all the hotspot. So you just naturally ended up getting involved in a lot of things. And, and we didn't handle radio calls. We, we were just looking for, wanted vehicles and wanted people or people doing, you know, hand to hand drug transactions or, so we all, and a lot of times we just pull up on, on things that we had to get involved in.

Vance Crowe [00:44:39] And my first night in mobile, so a guy was, one of our officers was chasing a suspect up an alley. And, and we pull up and I, I go to run down the gangway to help him. And my partner says, don't go down the gangway. He goes, he's, 'cause this particular officer, this guy had a gun. And he goes, he's gonna shoot this dude. 'cause you know, he's, he, this copper was an old school cop and if you had a gun, you didn't drop it. He, you know, he'd shoot you. And, and i, I ran halfway down the gangway and I stopped and all of a sudden heard bang, bang, bang. And the officer shot at the su I don't think he hit him in this particular case, but, but that's, you know, you know, I shot two people and I was in mo reserve. 'cause you just pull up on both of them, both times. It was just, you pull up on something in progress and you have to intervene and, and if the person doesn't drop the weapon or do what they're supposed to, you, you do what you gotta do. But did they die? No, the, the first guy I shot was fe out was a police officer's son, but he, it was a domestic thing. He, he and these two women were fighting and he, he, you know, he chased him up the staircase, outdoor staircase. And so I like, we're like, you know, we got on the air saying we got a disturbance here.

Vance Crowe [00:46:10] Me and my partner and I went up the staircase to figure out what's going on. 'cause it, they went in the, the house, the apartment he comes out and the one lady, he throws her down the steps and I'm on the steps. And, and this gal like rolls past me, then here comes the second gal. He throws her down the steps and she rolls past me. So, so now, you know, it's like, well the, you know, this is pretty serious. And so he's out there and he's screaming at me and he, he, he looks, he didn't have a gun on him, but he looks down and he pulls out this on the ground with a claw hammer. And I'm like, four steps down from him. And I said, Hey man, drop the hammer, you know? And he's like, I ain't dropping the hammer and goes, I'm gonna kill you. And I said, drop the hammer. And my partner, it happened so quick, my partner's still like getting out of the car, you know. And so he, he, he just said, he's looking at me with, he's got this hammer and he's frothing at the mouth. I mean, the guy's outta control. It turns out he was on drugs obviously. And he pulled that hammer back and started to, you know, throw it at me. And I said, I'm not, all I could see was this hammer sticking outta my forehead. And I said, no, screw that. And I, and I shot him and he fell off the balcony. And, and he lived, luckily he lived and you know, I, I called his father the next day. I said I was, I didn't apologize 'cause I, I wasn't sorry I did it 'cause I, it was either me or him.

Vance Crowe [00:47:44] And he says, nah, I'm just glad my son's still alive. And he's, you know, we're gonna get him help. You know, he's, we gotta get him off that he's on drugs. And you know, the homicide detectives came to, you know, to, you know, they handled the police shootings and there was a couple, you know, hardcore looking gang member looking guys across the street. And they waved this homicide detective over. And I'm thinking like, all these guys are gonna make up a bunch of crap that I shot the guy for no reason or whatever. And the detective talked to him and took down some stuff and he came back over and said, those two guys, I just, I go, what do those guys say? He said, well, they said, Hey man, we don't like the police. But that, that officer had no choice but to shoot that guy. So that, that kind of gave, gave me some faith, you know, that, you know, that it was such a bad situation that even these guys who don't particularly like police officers ca you know, they voluntarily came forward and, and, and made a statement. Then the second, the second time I shot a guy, it was like seven months later, not too far from where this one happened. And it was just a call for a bunch of guys in the alleyway with guns. And the seventh district got the call. We didn't get the call, but we were right there. So we stopped. And every, every police shooting I was involved in, I, and I've been involved with, with where my partner shot somebody and I didn't shoot, but it was always, every one of 'em was when we separated and we were like on the first one, my, my partner was there, but he just wasn't with me.

Vance Crowe [00:49:27] You know, he, he hadn't gotten around there. The other two times is like on the second one, my second shooting there was a cut through. It was on page avenue. Like what west of Union. And they have, you know, those long like double blocks. They, you know, they have like acro a walkway that goes through the, you know, the block, you know, we can go, go across the alley and you know, my partner lets me out and he was gonna go around to the other side and the, and the district coppers were coming from the other, the next street over. Well I'm looking and there's like six guys out there and they all got guns. They're like showing 'em to each other. And so it's like, alright, well they see the police car pull up. Well everybody starts going, you know, scooting, you know, go in different ways. Well the one guy came down my gangway and he didn't see me. I was like, I was around the corner and when he came up, I grabbed him, I said, you got a gun on you? He says, yes sir, I got one in my jacket pocket. And so I went to get it, it was like a Letterman's jacket type of jacket. Well he wasn't fighting me or anything, but he was, but the gun was caught in the lining of this ratty old jacket. And I couldn't get it out. So I said, Hey, you know, get down on the ground, you know, I'm gonna handcuff you and I'm gonna get this out. He's cooperating. Well right then I hear boom and I look up and here comes this guy running at me with a gun and I'm, I'm on top of this guy trying to get this gun out of his pocket.

Vance Crowe [00:51:05] And I had holstered my gun 'cause I needed both hands. And he was, he was handcuffed. I wasn't worried about it. Well this guy is running it first he doesn't see me 'cause I'm on the ground with this guy and the guy's running it. All of a sudden, the last second he sees me and he comes up and click and I, I get my gun out. And you would think it was like, for me to you in this gangway, the first two shots I shot, I missed him because, I guess 'cause I was still pulling my gun. But then the, the, the next shot, I hit him and it turns, I think I hit him in the elbow. But normally you'd think point blank range. You can't miss, you can miss from point blank range. And plus I still got the guy I'm kneeling on who's got a gun in his pocket. Luckily he was handcuffed, but same thing, it happened in a flash. And in the guy shot, he fell down, he dropped a gun in the street 'cause there was steps going down. He rolled down the steps and then he popped up and ran across Paige, ran through another gangway and lost sight of him. And by then, you know, my partner and the other two coppers, you know, they heard the shots and they came and you know, and we called for our sergeants and called for homicide. And we filed my, myself and one of the homicide sergeants filed the blood trail a couple blocks and then at the stop in an alley.

Vance Crowe [00:52:36] So you must've got in the car and somebody must gave him a ride or something. And where did you go in your career after being in this pretty intense role? Well, after my second shooting, chief Harmon thought I had to that be a good idea for me to chill out a little bit. So he put me in the fugitive unit, which one day I was up working in these bad neighborhoods. Next day I was driving to Greenville, Illinois to pick up a, a prisoner from penitentiary. And it was so, it was so nice, you know, I, you know, you know, just to be out there. It was a nice day. And we're, we're driving through the countryside and, and I, I really enjoyed do doing that, picking up prisoners. 'cause you learn how to, I learned how to talk to, to prisoners 'cause they're, they're, they're already in custody. They're not, you know, they know, you know, it's not like on the street where they're trying to get away or, or trying to convince you they didn't do whatever they, you know, you're, you're locking 'em up for, they were like, well, you know, I'm, I'm being transported. 'cause we picked up, people had warrants in St. Louis felony warrants. So if they got arrested in another state, it was all outta state fugitive runs. And so they, they knew, you know, they were good for it or they had a court case coming. And, but we would fly a lot of times and, and most of the people I brought back had never been on an airplane. And even if they were as a badass on the street, they'd never, they'd never been on a plane.

Vance Crowe [00:54:09] So these guys would be nervous and they didn't know how to act, you know, and they didn't know what it was like. Plus the first time you're being on an air, you're, you're, you're taking an airplane flight, you're in handcuffs. It is gotta be kinda weird too. But, but these guys would talk because they were nervous and, but you got to see, you know, this guy's not just a, a rap sheet and a picture. It's, it's a human being. 'cause you don't get a chance to converse with the bad guys on the street. You know, you're, you know, usually you lock 'em up, you read 'em their rights and they say, I don't, I, I don't have nothing to say. So you don't, you don't have conversations with them. And the last thing, if you're a drug dealer or something, what you wanna do is stand on the corner and talk to a cop, you know, so, but when you had 'em in custody, you know, they're calm, they're, they're sober, they're, they know that there's no way they're gonna get away or whatever. They tell you all kinds of stuff about where people in the neighborhood, you know, keep the drugs or hide their guns and stuff. So it was, it was a really neat experience. And then I went from there to, you know, to the fast unit, which is where we went out and looked for fugitives locally. And then I ended up, I ended up in intelligence eventually. I was in a violent crime task force during that time too, which was a, a a, a new unit at the time. It was kind of, it, it was a temporary unit pretty much, but we made a lot of good arrests. Went to intelligence.

Vance Crowe [00:55:40] That's where I gotta do a lot of the cool stuff, like with the guarding, you know, dignitaries and, and things like that. But we did a lot of corruption cases. We did gangs, we did public corruption. We, we did a lot of details like that. How'd you meet your wife? Just sit in Mizzou in, in the dorm. She lived a floor below me and just, we hung around. It was like boys floor, girls floor, boys, and the floor she lived on, you know, our floor kind of hung out with that. You know, a lot of the gals on that floor and just, we just met at a get together like on a Friday night or something. And What attracted you to her? Oh, very attractive, but, you know, but she just had a really cool demeanor about her. You know, I, I don't like real loud, boisterous people. And then I don't, I also don't prefer people like that don't say anything or, you know, kind of wallflower people. So she just had a really cool demeanor and she just, you know, you want to do something, you know, she, yeah, sure, let's do it. You know? So, so it's worked. All these, all these years. How Long after you were married, did you have kids? We didn't get married. I was 29. She was 28. We dated all that time. And it was kind of off and on. There was times where we weren't dating and, you know, it was, it was a roller coaster ride, but we always got back together, you know.

Vance Crowe [00:57:16] And so finally when, you know, 20, I was 29, she was 28, we got married and then we had our first son like the following year. And then my other son was born two years after that. Were you ready to be a dad? Yeah. Yeah. You know, by the time you're 30, I think, you know, it was, it was time and no, it, it's, you know, it's the best thing, you know, that's ever happened to me. How So? In my, you know, just, you know, I'm really proud of my kids, both of them. But it, they were fun, you know, it was fun raising them. They, they were always good kids. They never really got in trouble or, you know, they didn't talk back or rebellious, you know, you know, you know, maybe a little bit here and there, but not really. But it's just fun watching 'em grow and, and being an influence on 'em, you know? Do you see yourself in the voice? They're a good combination of their mom and, and, and me. And they both have really good sense of humor. They're both laid back. I said they're both really smart and proud of, proud of both of them. Was there ever a time when they got sick or injured? Yeah, you know, not really. My younger son, Matt was, he, he, he was more wild, you know.

Vance Crowe [00:58:48] He, he used to like to jump on furniture and I usually woke up every day with him when he was real little. He'd run, jump on the, there was like a, a like a little ottoman in front of the, of the bed. He'd jump and then like, land right on your chest and, you know, that's how I woke up like most days. But he broke collarbone and things like that. But, you know, luckily nothing, nothing big. And as you look back on what they've accomplished, what are you proud of? You know, I'm proud that the, they're, they're good people. I think that's the main thing. They treat people, right? There's an old saying, like, if, if some, you know, if you're out, go out to dinner with somebody and they're nice to you, but they're not nice to the employees of the restaurant, they're, they're not nice people. And I think that kind of, you know, that fits in a lot of situations, you know. And I, and go back, you know, talking about my dad with the, you know, the bus boys and bus girls showing up at his, you know, at his wake. It, it, that meant, meant a lot to me. 'cause, you know, my dad would spend a lot of money in these restaurants. I expect, you know, it, it kind of expected to see maybe the, you know, the owner there or some, which I also, I, you know, appreciated. But, you know, he treated these other people well enough that they took their time out of their, their day to come, you know, pay the respects that, that says a lot.

Vance Crowe [01:00:18] And I see a lot of those qualities in, in my sons, which that makes me me proud. Because, you know, any, a lot of people, you know, can have good paying jobs are have good, you know, whatever. But if you're an asshole, then it kind of negates to me, mo most, I don't care how much money you got or, or what you can do or what, what's, what's in your garage or whatever. It's, it's how you treat other people. A lot of people either try and parent like their parents or they try and do things really differently. What were you like? Like, my parents. I think my dad would get more mad at us when we messed up. I tried not to show that. Like, if my kids did mess up, I, I didn't wanna show that anger. And I don't think it really even made me angry. 'cause I, you know, nobody, nobody has a good day every day. How many years have you been with Chris? I guess we met 40 years ago. We've been married for 32. That's a long time. Yeah. Yeah. What'd You learn about yourself being married that long? A lot of little things that used to, we used to argue about or, you know, used to get mad about or I'd stew about, weren't that big a deal, you know? And, you know, vite, I had a, you know, kind of a revelation one day, but we had a, a defensive tactics class in, in, in, on the police department.

Vance Crowe [01:01:57] And the whole point of this one exercise was if somebody runs at you, like charges at you, like they, you know, aggressively, you know, your, your natural instinct is to run up and try and hit them harder than they hit you. Well, what you end up doing is like, you both get hurt. You know? So, you know, the, the instructor taught when somebody runs at you, what you do is you let 'em come to you and you take their body weight and force them down to the ground. You know, you kind of back up And then Kind of ride 'em to the ground. And then you end up on top. You got the advantage. You know, one day I'm thinking like, every time my wife and I are arguing about something, well, my instinct would be like to say, well, you did this, or, or no, I didn't. You know? But then I just learned like, Hey, take a, take a deep breath. Take a step back and say, well, you know, I didn't mean to do that. Or if I did do that, I'm sorry. You know, I, I didn't do it to, to piss you off. I just, you know, whatever. But you end up arguing about little things that don't matter. And, and I, you just learn over the years is, is just like, let let the little things go. You know? And it is all right if she's mad at me about something, it's something that may not be important to me, but it, it, it is important to her, you know, if it's something small, you know, it like leaving a towel, you know, on the whatever on the floor, you know, it, it's, it's all right for her to be mad about that.

Vance Crowe [01:03:29] 'cause it's, it, it's annoying her and, you know, she has to pick it up and, and I shouldn't have done it. And, but don't get, you know, I, for me, don't get defensive. Just say, I'm sorry. I won't do it again. Let's move To the last segment. This is what we call the wisdom or legacy segment. What is success? I really think success is sitting here, 61 years old and being happy, comfortable, satisfied with your life. So far, I think, you know, just treating people right and being able to look, you know, in the mirror and say, man, I wish I wouldn't have done this. I wouldn't have done that. You know, I, I think success is just having that ease that, that comfort with your, your life. You know, I don't have a bucket list, you know, because I don't, I, I mean, there's a lot of stuff I still wanna do, but I feel like I've done so many things during the course of my life that I don't need this to, to top things off or this, or, or whatever. I, I'm kind of more of an opportunist too. You know? I just, if an opportunity comes up to do something fun, I'll do it. I, I'm not as much of the plan maker is. I'm, I'm the guy that goes along and maybe hopefully enhances the experience, but I may not be the guy who, you know, puts it all together. So, so I think success is just, you know, being happy with, with your life, you know?

Vance Crowe [01:05:02] And you know, you don't really realize it probably while you're doing it as much. 'cause we, like we just said, you're worried about your career. You're worried about your kids growing up, right? You're worried about having enough money to, to sustain. But when you sit back, you know, I I, I I'm completely happy with my life up to this, to this point. What was a difficult lesson to learn that was valuable to know? I, I think it, it's something that I learned recently dealing with, you know, I was the primary caretaker for my aunt and uncle in their, you know, in their later years. And they both had a lot of medical problems and, and in and outta the hospital dealing with this, the, you know, the anguish of getting old and being, you know, you know, I, I think the lesson is don't wait for the golden years. 'cause you're, you, you know, when you're 80 isn't the golden years 'cause you're, chances are you're, you're old. Even if you're in relatively good health as an 80-year-old, you can't do what you did when you were 60 years old or 40 years old, obviously. And you just, by seeing them go through that, I think it, it really taught me to appreciate what, what what you have, you know, when you have it, and you can get to the point where you, you don't, you're alive.

Vance Crowe [01:06:36] You're fighting to stay alive, but you're not really living life the way you want to. And the natural thing is to fight, you know, every, get every breath outta life as you can. But toward the end, I could see they both were like, I'm, I'm waving the white flag. You know, it's so, I just wanna live my life, you know, to the fullest. And you know, I, I, you know, when you get to that point where you, you just, you can't do the simplest things that you want to do. You, you know, you can't go where you want to go when you want to go there. You don't, you don't know when your next trip to the hospital is gonna be. I, I, I just, I, I think at that point, I'm, I'm not gonna fight for every breath. I, you know, I, it sounds kind of morbid, but I I just, you, you just, the sole purpose of life is to enjoy it. When you think about it, you know, no matter how hard you work, no matter whatever, at the end, you, you, you, you die. You know? And, and if you know, you just, you know, I, I just wanna kind of go out gracefully, hopefully. And, but that's, that's the lesson I learned. 'cause that that really kind of, you know, it, it was hard going through that with them, just seeing how much it hurt them and how, how unhappy they were. What do you think happens when you die? I, I don't know whether your life energy goes, you know, you know, it's, I I, I don't really think that I'm gonna float up into, you know, the clouds.

Vance Crowe [01:08:08] You know, maybe metaphorically, maybe, maybe there is something that your life passes on or your energy, but I, I don't know. I'm, I'm not a big religious person, so I can't really, you know, I believe in a higher being of some sort, obviously, because there's, there's no way you can explain for why all this is here, you know, and why you and I are here. But I, I don't, I mean, I don't think anybody obviously knows for sure everybody has their beliefs, but I think maybe in, in the end we're all kind of believing the same thing. We just call it different things. And it's almost so mind blowing. I don't, I don't waste too much time thinking about it. 'cause I'll, I don't think I'll figure it. What should your future generations know about what it is to be a frank, You know, to work hard, you know, to, you know, to get good grades, you know, to, to learn things. But what I, what I try to teach my kids and what I hope that they, they they continue is, you know, when I, when I go out or my wife and I go out, a lot of times we took our kids, we, we'd sit up at the bar and the kids would sit at the bar with us and my son would turn and talk to some old guys sitting next to 'em. And because I taught 'em that, you know, my wife taught 'em that if you're sitting next to somebody, say hi to 'em. You know, you can always like get up and walk and get another seat if they're rude or they're angry or something.

Vance Crowe [01:09:39] But, you know, get to know people, you know, it, it, that's one of the things that, that the cool experiences in life. It, it doesn't cost anything to be nice to somebody. It doesn't, you know, when you go up to, I, I like listening to people rather 'cause I know what I've done, you know? I like to learn. 'cause sometimes you meet somebody, an old person, they look kind of crabby, but you start talking to 'em and they've had this like, amazing life and you would never know if, if you didn't take some time to talk to 'em. And that's why I like, like doing interviews. 'cause I, I, like, I don't want, I don't think I should have to talk very much on interview, you know? 'cause I, I want to hear what they have to say. I, I know what I know. And interviewing prisoners, you know, you just, you are suspects. You, you, you let 'em talk. You know, you let 'em, you know, you, you, but, you know, not just get 'em to say what you want them to say, you know, but let them talk about themselves. You know. So I, you know, I think that's the thing that with my, my kids have that, that knack. Especially my younger son, Matt, is when he was a little kid, you know, we, we'd go to, to like my, my hangout down on Hampton Place called Bruno's. And, and he was like, you know, 13 years old, we'd go to a hockey game and he'd just start talking to patrons at the bar. He is like, get that guy a beer. You know? And, you know, it, it, it was, it's, it's just neat, you know?

Vance Crowe [01:11:10] So, you know, enjoy life and get to know people. I, I think people are what makes it interesting. Was there any question that I didn't ask that I should have? I didn't really give a lot of thought to this interview before I did it. 'cause I just wanted to see what, you know, see what flowed. But I think I really got out the things that I, I think it's important that somebody watches this, you know, after I'm gone that, you know, kind of captures, you know, kind of what my life has been about to this point. So I appreciate it. How do you hope Your family and friends commemorate you when you're gone? Everybody just to get together and, and, and, and, you know, just have a party and just, you know, talk about, you know, the good times. You know, I, I don't, you know, I I, I think that, you know, in a lot of cases nowadays, people don't want the big, you know, morbid, not morbid, but you know, the, the, the funeral and all the sadness and stuff is, hey, everybody's going to, you know, when, when people, like when my aunt and uncle died, when my mom and dad died, you, you know, you grieve on your own. You grieve with your family and that, but I don't, I don't really, I think people are getting away from this long, drawn out, you know, you know, when I was a kid, I remember, you know, there was like two day wakes and, and, and you spent the whole day. You know, you know, you know, on the funeral day and the burial and all that.

Vance Crowe [01:12:42] You know, I, I think I just want people to look back and say, you know, you know, he, he, he was a fun guy to be around or, you know, he, you know, whatever he, you know, he was a good friend, loyal friend. That, that, that means most to me, I think. So maybe the last question. When was the last time you laughed really hard? Like I said, you know, and that's the one thing about police department. I laughed my ass off at least once a day, every day because something funny happened either in the station, policemen are funny, a lot of police officers are funny and there's a lot of funny people out there just in the public that, that you come across. But, you know, I left, we, we had a, a, a guy on the podcast who, you know, we do a zen moment every time. And, and he was our fill in Zen guy. So he got into the role 'cause he, he, he, he put these like Chinese outfit on and, you know, and stuff. And it was unexpected and he just really pulled it off. It, it wasn't disrespectful or anything, it was just really funny. And, but I laugh all the time, you know? I, you know, pink Panther movie came on the other day and I was, I was rolling on the floor laughing, you know, you know, it just, you know, you, you, you gotta laugh every day. It's something, you know, it might be a chuckle, it might be a, a gut laugh, but I, I, yeah, I probably laughed hard yesterday at something, you know?

Vance Crowe [01:14:13] So, and I think that's the best medicine in the world, you know, you get good, good laughing every day. You'll, you know, you'll be a lot better off, you know, mentally, I think. Well, John Frank, who's an honor doing this interview with you, thank you very much. It was an honor being here and I, I really appreciate it. It it, it, it was fun. And I, I didn't do any research on, on, on the subject matter like I usually have to do, you know? 'cause it's easy talking about yourself, you know, so I appreciate Vance. Well, before we go tell everybody about Your podcast and what you talk about and how it all works, It's called the Brighter Side of Blue. There's three retired officers, myself, Tom Sawyer, who I worked with, I've known him for years. Dan Howard, he's a retired major and he was my brother's best friend growing up. So I've known Dan since he was a little kid. And then Jimmy Joiner call him jj, he, he's still an active lieutenant on the police department. He's the commander of the Mole Reserve. So it's, it is a neat perspective based on our kind of varied background, but we try to show positive things of law enforcement and law enforcement officers. We also use it as an opportunity to, to kind of archive and memorialize different, we talk about incidents, crimes.

Vance Crowe [01:15:44] We had the south side rapist and national food murders from years ago. But we, but we also just talk about different officers characters. So it depends. It is very free, you know, flowing. Some just, we've had some where we just sit around and tell war stories, you know, our own war stories, you know, but we've had people like Joe Bergon and Harry Hager like kind of legendary figures, you know, during our career that, but it's a chance to preserve these stories and preserve the, and actually hear these stories from people who lived in and who were involved in these different ex escapades. So it, it's, but we don't, you know, we try to stay out of politics. We try, we try not to gripe and, and, and bitch about things. We try to have a few, we, we have a few good laughs we pick on each other. You know, we're normally, we drink beer the whole time we're doing it, you know, it's just, we, we do it from a bar, from Colombo's Bar, but it's supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be informative, but we do get into some serious things. You know, we had an officer talk about his partner getting killed in the line of duty. You know, he, and you know, he told, it was the first time he's told it in a public kind of form. It was pretty poignant. And then we also heard in a later episode from that officer that dies widow.

Vance Crowe [01:17:19] And, you know, hearing how that, from her perspective of how she found out and how she's coped and how, you know, where she's at now with her life. We've talked to some old school guys, we've talked to some younger people. But hopefully it's, it's, it's entertainment and I, I think it's a, it's a neat look, but into the lives of, of police officers and, and, and if you are an officer, I, I, I think a lot of the older officers like hearing these stories. Again, retired guys like to hear these names and, and, and hear about these events, but it, it, it's brighter side of blue. And we're on Spotify. We're on YouTube. We have, we do video with them now. The first five or six were probably all just audio. But then Jack Milliken, who you know very well, came on board and Jack does an amazing job, you know, putting us on film and he does all our editing and just a really kind of brilliant, talented kid as you know him. And he's helped us out a lot. And he takes our calls, you know, when we can't figure out how to play the, the video and stuff like that. But, Well, I, I, I for one, love your podcast. I've, I've listened to the ones on stakeouts and intelligence stuff and I really have found that it illuminates the side of the world that I am try and stay away from.

Vance Crowe [01:18:50] And I, yeah, I think it's, that's a powerful thing. So thank you for putting that on and thanks for sitting down to do this. No, you, we, we really enjoy doing the podcast. And now we're big Vance Crow Vance. Thank you.