Montessori and the Independent Child | Kerry Moran

Kerry Moran [00:00:00] When I see a 15 month old able to sit and delay their gratification, that is the ultimate problem solving. And so many times in life there are adults that I just wanna put in the waiting chair and come on, you can delay your gratification. Watch this 15 month old do it.

Vance Crowe [00:00:18] Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Today I sit down with a Montessori educator, Carrie Moran, to talk about how the child's mind learns, how they have a connection between what they touch with their hands and what they remember and understand in their minds. This is a fascinating conversation that stretches everywhere from the philosophy of Maria Montessori all the way out to the future of education in a world of ai. And we're gonna get to it in just a moment. But first, I wanted to tell you about Legacy Interviews. Legacy Interviews is a service we offer right here in our studios in St. Louis, Missouri, where we sit down with your loved ones, either an individual or a couple, to capture their life stories so that future generations can know their family history. We have a wonderful conversation that spans everything from your childhood, your career, marriage and parenting, and the wisdom that you've learned along the way. If you're interested to learn more, we'll talk a little bit more about it in the episode, but you can visit Legacy Interviews dot com. Alright, let's head to the interview with Kerry, the Montessori educator. I thought Montessori and Waldorf were like adjacent and now I realize, no, they are literally the opposite.

Kerry Moran [00:01:28] Pretty much they, it, it's like a different interpretation of freedom, like what freedom is. I would say more adjacent is Regio. Have you done Regio, Amelia?

Vance Crowe [00:01:38] I've a little bit read about it, but tell me about it.

Kerry Moran [00:01:40] That they're both from, they're both from Italy actually. It's more like, I would say Regio is a little more, it's more following the child, same as Montessori, it's more involved in teacher preparation. They're more multiple intelligences theory, like everybody has a gift and that should be celebrated and honored. And you know, like rather than like, oh, this child's bad at math, it's like, oh well this child's an artist and look at how they interpret the light and that kind of thing. It's a little more artistic based than Montessori. Like there's an arta who's like in charge, like there's like a whole studio they go to and things like that. So natural

Vance Crowe [00:02:24] Art. How did you get on the Montessori worldview?

Kerry Moran [00:02:28] Well, so I am an Irish dancer and musician, so that, my story kind of comes at it from that. Like my, my whole family has massive Irish pride. My grand, I'm named after county Kerry Ireland. So my grandmother was from a rural farm in tri, actually outside of Tri. And she came to this country, she met my grandpa during World War II in London. And they, and he was from St. Louis and she was legendary. My grandma, four foot 11 thick Irish brogue, the best storyteller ever. Like every time I hear a good story, it like gets to my soul. It, it makes me think of her. So she actually lied to my grandpa about her age. She was eight years older than him, but she didn't wanna be like this old spinster. So she said, oh, I'm only two years older. So then he married her and she came to the US and she would just, she had, so she lived next door to me, so she would sit, like I would go over, she'd be like, Carrie, get your fiddle. Come on over and liven up this neighborhood. So I'd go over and I'd sit on the swing with her up on her hill and she would tell me stories and then she'd say, okay, now we'll have a tune. And then I'd play music for her and she would sing. And so I think like the Irish current is underlying everything that I do.

Kerry Moran [00:03:59] And so anyways, I won St. Patrick's Day, well actually many St. Patrick's Day, one of my best friend's mom owned the Montessori school in Webster Groves Faith Academy. And we would go and perform at the school. And I rem, I will never forget, I was in high school, probably 15 years old and a 3-year-old brought me a little wooden chair and said, oh, you may sit here while you perform. And I was like, what is this? Because I came from Catholic, Irish Catholic, so Catholic education where the teacher was in charge, she stood at the front of the room and you jumped into that box. And so that kind of piqued my interest and I think it just, and I was always asking my friend like, what did they do? How did they do that? Like how did your mom get them to do that? And it just kind of grabbed a hold of me. And I knew I wanted to do early childhood education because I have always been drawn to younger children and just the way they perceive things. And I'm an observant person naturally. But finding Montessori just took the observation piece and just ignited it for me. I think.

Vance Crowe [00:05:14] Wait, that's curious. What, what do you, why is observation in Montessori so tightly tied together?

Kerry Moran [00:05:19] That is the foundation of a good Montessori educator? It's like not possible to be a Montessori educator if you don't have that observation piece. The ability to sit and watch and not pass judgment and see what the child's doing and try to understand why they're doing something the way they're doing. So it's that. And then self-reflection is the other piece. Like in Montessori, you're, well, so you go through rigorous training and it's the spiritual preparation of the adult. And actually at, at our school, we just did a lot of professional development before the school year started on understanding that spiritual preparation. And it's, it's not like I know because I'm the adult and I have more experience and you're three years old. It's more like, what can I learn about this individual? And I, I've been doing this for, gosh, I found KCH when I was 19, so I've been doing this 20, 23 years.

Vance Crowe [00:06:24] Wait, okay, so you are in high school and performing. You find out there's this new form of school, you knew you were gonna do something with the young kids, you then go to school to become a Montessori teacher.

Kerry Moran [00:06:35] So I went to Mizzou and I got early childhood. They didn't have a Montessori specific degree. And I was, I like to have fun too, so I wasn't, I, it's so funny. People who knew me then and people who know me now, 'cause I, I had a very good time when I was young and I think that's why I can handle the responsibility that I have now because I kind of got all that outta my system. So anyway, I'm at Mizzou, I'm doing early childhood education and I knew in the back of my mind I wanna, I wanna do something with this Montessori, I need to know more. I just, it piqued my interest in such a way that I knew I was gonna go for that in some way. So I started researching and I had found an international Montessori training program in New Zealand and I can't even remember, it's been so long, it's like all kind of hazy to me now. But, so I had applied there and then shortly after I received an email saying that their international student funding fell through. So that was, no, and, and that was, well we can get into a MS versus a MI too. But that was the international branch of Montessori. So then I went back and started researching and the exotic city of Cincinnati, Ohio came up as the next best thing. There was a master's program there at Xavier University. And so that's where I went. I knew nobody, I just kind of showed up.

Kerry Moran [00:08:06] I, that was during the good old Craigslist days, I found my roommate on Craigslist and she and I had an apartment together and Hyde Park, really great neighborhood in Cincinnati. And I just kind of like threw myself into Montessori. Like it was like I ate, slept and breathed it all the time. For two years I worked for an amazing Montessori school called Montessori Center Room and like the Montessori language guru, Carol Woods was her name and she just passed away last year. It was her school. And I just kind of fell into it. Like I, I got so lucky. 'cause in Cincinnati there are Montessori public schools, there's a Montessori high school that's public. That would be something pretty fascinating.

Vance Crowe [00:08:59] Just really, it just took root there and then

Kerry Moran [00:09:01] Spread out. Yes, so there was a woman named Hilda Rothchild, and I believe she came from Germany and she had studied with Maria Montessori and she somehow, I, well Cincinnati's a very German area, so she ended up in Cincinnati. So she really, you know, had a lot of strength behind her. And so she developed a lot of schools and I don't know if she was involved specifically with Xavier University or not, but, so Cincinnati became kind of a hub of Montessori in the, in the us.

Vance Crowe [00:09:35] Alright, we're gonna take a break for just one moment to talk about Legacy Interviews. A service we offer both here in St. Louis or online.

Kerry Moran [00:09:44] I grew up with my dad and my uncle all the time and I heard all the old stories like my mother not having electricity and water. It's one generation removed today's world just so, so different. And that gap is there. We always talked about it with my dad, but we never really did it. I would've liked to have had it of my parents, you know, we always wanted to do something like that, but somehow we never did. If you keep waiting so long, the memories do fade. I'm not saying I'm getting old. You take the opportunity when you can,

Vance Crowe [00:10:14] When you show up there, how is Montessori different than what you're expecting? What surprised you about it once you get there?

Kerry Moran [00:10:21] So, that's a good question. Well, so I I I'm gonna be all over the place. I kind of dart from thing to think. While I was at Mizzou, I worked for the Children's House, which was a Montessori school in Columbia right across from campus. And that was different. So push I there for, no, I was at Kirkwood, Kirkwood Children's House was my very first experience of Montessori. And so I didn't really know what to expect. And I remember, so I was living in, in Ireland at the time and I was like a OL instant messaging. My mom in St. Louis, like, I really wanna work at a Montessori school when I get home. And I was coming home in June and I was like, can you send my resume to, here's some schools I found, just send my resume to all of these. And Kirkwood Children's House was one of them. And Florence Kramer was the founder and she was Irish. Her, her maiden name was Hughes. And she called my mom and she was like, I, I just think this is a match made in heaven. I wanna meet Carrie. And my mom said, well, she's in Ireland right now, she'll be home. And she needed someone to start, like, I think I came home June 1st and she needed someone to start June 2nd. And so she called, I remember Florence calling me, I was, was it spring break? I was in London for a week, like with my cousin. And she called me and I chatted with her on the phone and she had all this energy and very like, very kind of like me, I guess started from one thing to the next and I just felt like a familial connection with her.

Kerry Moran [00:12:02] And so I came home and started a KCH the next day, walked in and it was a house, it was like a mid-century house, like a big ranch house with this beautiful backyard with tons of mature trees. And children were just like engrossed in it and there were climbing trees and you know, it's like no one was stopping them from climbing. And they knew about the, like, I remember morning doves flying by and children being like, oh, that's a morning dove. And I just remember thinking like, well this is even more amazing than I thought it was. So I, from KCHI knew that there was a nature aspect and I, like my family's big into national parks and hiking and camping and all of that. So I think that reached my soul as well. So, but yeah, so KCH was first then I worked for the Children's House in Columbia and that was a much bigger operation, but also more, more like hippie like, like the children were always barefoot and the teachers were just very like earthy people. And I, I really enjoyed that. And then I went to Cincinnati and worked at center room. And center room was very like buttoned up and very like buttoned up in a good way though. Like, it was like you walked into the classroom environments and it was like, you could hear the angels singing. It was pristine and every like the, all of the adults were, even the parent volunteers were specifically trained and they wouldn't let you go in there until you had that training.

Kerry Moran [00:13:43] So it was just like highly, highly respected. And I remember my friends at Xavier being like, how did you get that job? Because, so there's, there's multiple training centers there, there's a university with a master's degree and a bachelor's degree in Montessori education. So you've got assistant teachers all over the city with master's degrees who can't even get like a lead guide position. And I had just kind of like stumbled upon it. Like I met the director and I, I, she and I just kind of hit it off I guess. And so I was working in there in enrichment program. And then who was in the classroom? There were three Montessori guides and one left for some reason. And I remember like the board president's children would come to the afterschool enrichment program and I just like waited for her like a spider. I was like, all right Jen, I want that job. Like I know I'm not totally experienced, but what can I do? And she was like, okay, well we'll interview you. And the whole time she's interviewing me and, and the head of of school was interviewing like, they were smiling and I was like, they love me, like this is happening. And it did. And so I taught there and just, I think I realized the magnitude and the importance of Montessori when I lived in Cincinnati. And so then Gina Lof Quist was the director at Xavier of the Montessori program.

Kerry Moran [00:15:14] And she, like she and I were connected as well and she was kind of like, well if you stay in Cincinnati, you know, we'll give you a position at Xavier, you can keep teaching at center room. And I was just so honored by that. But at the same time, Kirkwood Children's House just like had a hold of my heart and I was just, I think I was like never not gonna go back there. And so that, like, I, I did turn that down and I left center room and it was heartbreaking. I remember I cried the whole way back to St. Louis when I graduated and moved on. But then it was like, I took a little bit of that like fun hippie playground thing from the children's house and the like highly regarded philosophy of center room. And I brought that with me back to that like home base nature that Kirkwood Children's House already had. I don't know if I even answered your question.

Vance Crowe [00:16:16] Oh, I mean, so this is a good story. And then eventually you, you went from being a guide at KCH to running the program.

Kerry Moran [00:16:24] Yes. So, well I was, so she, hi. So Florence hired me to kind of run the summer camp 'cause I was still going back to Mizzou at the time. And so I started as, you know, an assistant and then I went to Xavier and then I decided to come home. And then I remember I was either, I think it was the first summer, so I was 19 or 20 and Flo I remember telling Florence like, I love this. Like I love this. The concept of, so Ma Maria Montessori talked about the children's house, everything there is for the House of Children, you know, it's like the children have access to everything and the environment, everything in it is prepared for them. And we can definitely get into that. 'cause that's a crucial part of Montessori. And it was like seeing it in a house in that way just embodied what I knew. And I said to Florence, like, I wanna do this someday. And she was like, oh, you totally can't. I wish, I wish we could imitate her. She talks really fast and you'll do, maybe you'll totally do this. Maybe you'll just buy this place someday. And when she said that, I was like, okay, yeah, that's what I'm gonna do. And years later, I actually interviewed her last year for our 40th anniversary and she said, you know, I regretted telling you that because once I said that you were gonna do that and I

Vance Crowe [00:17:46] Couldn't stop you.

Kerry Moran [00:17:47] And she was right. And it was something about, I'm gonna take this off 'cause it keeps making noise. Something about I, it's like I, I do think that I am, I can be a fearless person and a bit of a risk taker. And it was like, I, like Montessori just engaged me in such a way that it, it was like I was fearless. It was like I just knew like I was walking this path and I just, I felt like I knew exactly what I wanted just because it was such a powerful movement.

Vance Crowe [00:18:21] So you've now talked about the magnitude of it, the power of it, the spirituality of it. A lot of this is very abstract. How do you explain Montessori to somebody that doesn't know anything at all about it?

Kerry Moran [00:18:34] Okay, I will give you my prospective family to elevator speech, I guess. So for our school, I would say the three things that I always talk about are the hands-on materials. So Montessori materials are very hands-on. Like math is a great example. Like mathematical concepts are pretty abstract, but Mon Maria Montessori created these materials over a hundred years ago and they are so concrete and children getting their hands on them just like, and, and myself too. I remember sitting there in graduate school with my mouth hanging open because I was never good at math. And seeing A plus B plus C cubed in a concrete form called the Trino meal cube, just like opened a whole new world for me it's, it's that hands-on experience that it kind of like gets into the child's body. Maria Montessori called it muscle memory. So it's like experiencing these abstract concepts in a very concrete way that can like light up the brain in a different way. She talked a lot about how the hands through the purposeful activity that you do in a Montessori classroom like that is how your brain develops. So that, so the materials, they're very high quality, they're very respectful of the child. Like I, I just cringe when I see daycare settings and I don't subject myself to that very often, but you know, when you read about it or see photos or something, it's like these pl everything's plastic and nothing can be broken and everything's super washable and it's bright colors and it's loud and we're the opposite of that.

Kerry Moran [00:20:20] It's like high quality wood, real glass, beautiful metals. Like things are very aesthetically pleasing and that draws the child in very naturally.

Vance Crowe [00:20:30] Yeah, I would say that Montessori, my experience of it is that it respects your attention. Like if your attention is the most valuable thing that you own, it lets the kids be like, which thing do I wanna play with?

Kerry Moran [00:20:41] What

Vance Crowe [00:20:41] Is it that I am drawn to? Yes. And I think that like the very core of learning is curiosity and curiosity that is driven by the internal, you know, wave or whatever's going on in the inside. Yes. As opposed to you've grabbed my attention over the other things at the expense of grabbing me. And Montessori to your point is exactly that. Like you get kind of curious, you get closer, you can pick things up. Yes. Everything has a place, there's not, you're not trying to sort through things.

Kerry Moran [00:21:11] Yes. The order, the environment's very ordered and, and you also touched upon, it's like children have these innate sensitive periods that they are drawn to something intrinsically. And so it's like that's where our observation comes in. We are sitting watching these children, seeing what they gravitate to or seeing what their needs are. And our job as the guide. So we don't call ourselves a teacher, sometimes that slips out because you know, that's the lay language or whatever. But the guide, the Montessori guide is the person connecting the child to that environment. Like maybe they're, it's, it's always funny when you see like a two and a half year old just want to do the movable alphabet and it's a box with all of these letters and you know, it can quickly become a chaotic mess if you don't know what you're doing. And they just wanna do it so much like the, the red and the blue letters. They see the older children and we'll get into that next 'cause that's another cornerstone is the multi-age, but the guide's job. So I would say in a traditional setting, a teacher would say, oh no, no, you're not ready for that. You haven't had a lesson on that. You don't know your letter sounds yet. You don't know the names of the letters. No, no, no, we're not gonna do that. Let's go do this really simple task. But no, that child is drawn to that material for a reason. So it's our job to guide them. So with the movable alphabet, if we'll go with that example, when you have a two and a half year old, like we would have them take out the first sound of their name from the box.

Kerry Moran [00:22:51] So maybe it begins with B. So then it's like you have 'em lay them all out. And I said, okay, now thank you. Let's put all the book back right here in the box. And then you have like honored what they're innately interested in rather than taking the wind out of their sails.

Vance Crowe [00:23:09] I completely appreciate and understand this, like for me the most, the thing that drives us is how do I grab the goals that I want and avoid the obstacles that I can't want, that I don't want, you know, like that I wanna avoid. And when you're talking about like a kid wanting to be with the older kids, well if they're doing movable alphabet and I'm doing movable alphabet, there's something going on with their brain that is going to allow them to understand and accept that information way more than everyone get out your letter sheet. Now we're all going to do the same thing over and over and over again.

Kerry Moran [00:23:46] Yes. And and I've seen, and so the next piece of Montessori for someone that I always, I always explain to prospective parents or people who are like, what is Montessori multi-age classroom? So you have, so at our school it's two and a half through six mixed in during that morning Montessori work time, which is a long stretch of time. So at our school we try to get started at eight 30. Sometimes nature is just keeping us out there. I I was just on the teachers this morning like, it is eight 50, like why aren't we doing work time? But we try to get started at eight 30 and then we go till about 1115. So they have that uninterrupted work period where they can engage over and over again in a cycle of activity. But So you,

Vance Crowe [00:24:33] So that's when they're doing like movable alphabet or the mat? Yes.

Kerry Moran [00:24:36] Or it might be art, it might be, they might be scrubbing a table, they might be preparing a snack for themselves. Really anything, there's a whole environment that they have access to. There's reading, there's math, there's sensorial materials, there's cultural materials, there's practical life. And our art curriculum goes with practical life. And I mean, I can delve into anything you want me to about that, but, but yeah, so a as people often see a young child is drawn to other children, like they, they're way more interested in seeing what other children, even a baby, an infant will just be watching. Like if there's a child in the room, they're looking at that child. It's some kind of innate thing within them. And so we have those two and a half year olds and they are watching those five and six year olds do the movable alphabet or these big math works or reading or, or anything. And they wanna do that too. And over many years I've seen time and time again, the two and a half or 3-year-old watching that five-year-old just absorbing what they're doing. You know, it, it might be like absorbing the sounds. It might be the, the order of the letters or the math materials. And then when it comes time for them to actually do it, they're already halfway there just from absorbing that. And then on the flip side, those older children, they're the models of the classroom environment and their own learning is reinforced.

Kerry Moran [00:26:14] Like they know that they've got this leadership responsibility and they've waited from when they were two or three till that time where they become the leader of the classroom and they give lessons and their own learning is reinforced. And you know, like you hear time and again, like it's not hearing someone impart knowledge. It's like it like you can, your own learning is reinforced by explaining it to others. So I see that as well.

Vance Crowe [00:26:45] And there's something really deeply important about not making children wait until they're much older to become leaders. Right? Like I, so in Legacy Interviews I've interviewed some like people that were a lot older that were even a teacher inside of a one room schoolhouse. And one of the teachers said to me something that struck me, she said, you know what we lost when we got rid of the one room schoolhouse was that teachers all of a sudden became the most important person in the room. And she was like, before it was a one room schoolhouse, it was the other three kids that were expected to make sure you learned your mathematics. Hmm. And the other people that were teaching you about your grammar homework and they were able to explain it to you in ways that were really relevant to you. The teacher was more of a coordinator in that role.

Kerry Moran [00:27:29] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:27:29] Whereas when we got to a certain point and we changed over to it being more of a factory system, now the teacher is preeminent. There is nothing that goes on without the teacher.

Kerry Moran [00:27:38] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:27:38] And Montessori is more like the one room schoolhouse.

Kerry Moran [00:27:41] Yes. And and like sometimes I think parents are like, oh well I want a really low ratio of students to teachers because I want my child to have a lot of attention. And it takes, it's kind of the same thing it takes away, it's like the adult is always there hovering when you have these like tiny little classes and the child just gets accustomed to going to the adult for help. Well, in, in our primary classes you have 30 children and we do have two Montessori guides and an assistant. But when you walk in those rooms, the adults are down low, you can't immediately see them, which is exactly what you want. And the children look around and you know, it's like they problem solve in a way that they wouldn't if you had that helicopter constantly around you available to answer your questions and help you fix things. And I think that's a massive piece of Montessori too, is the ability to problem solve. And, and even, and that always makes me think of in our toddler community, those children are 18 to 36 months and they, you know, they are very motivated to eat toddlers love to eat, but they, so there's food preparation work in there and they sit and wait in what it's called the waiting chair. And they can decide if they're able to sit and control themselves and wait until it's their turn to peel the clementine or if they just can't handle it and they're gonna go do something else.

Kerry Moran [00:29:15] And when I see a, I mean even as young, the youngest we've had is 15 months when I see a 15 month old able to sit and delay their gratification. That is the ultimate problem solving. And so many times in life there are adults that I just wanna put in the waiting chair and come on, you can delay your gratification. Watch this 15 month old do it. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:29:40] I mean, what is, what is adulthood more than delaying gratification for as long as you possibly can to continue to create things. So if you can embed that into a child,

Kerry Moran [00:29:49] Whereas

Vance Crowe [00:29:50] In the authoritarian system, it's who can get the attention of the teacher

Kerry Moran [00:29:55] Most

Vance Crowe [00:29:55] Effectively. Yeah. So we, we said there were three things you say on the tour, the materials, the joined classroom,

Kerry Moran [00:30:05] Multi-age classroom, and then nature is the third thing that I always hit. And that, and, and I feel like, and then I always offshoot and we talk about community, we talk about respect for the individual, but nature is a huge aspect of our school and Montessori in general. And it's spending time in the outdoors. It's kind of again like finding your limits. So our playgrounds are very large, there's tons of climbing opportunities. Everything's very natural. I'll just go ahead and compare it to a daycare where everything's plastic and has rounded edges and there's rubber under everything.

Vance Crowe [00:30:49] The thing that gets me about other daycares, and I understand they have to operate within constraints is there is no natural shade. So there's

Kerry Moran [00:30:57] Shade

Vance Crowe [00:30:57] And shade and light. That's what makes you wanna be outside in the middle of the day is like, is there a place for me to enjoy the breeze but not be beaten down by the sun? And I like what, when kids can be in a spot where they don't have to think about being out in the blazing heat,

Kerry Moran [00:31:15] Then

Vance Crowe [00:31:16] It's not hard to get them to be outside. But if you're like, Hey everyone go play out on the asphalt. Like nobody wants to do that. Well,

Kerry Moran [00:31:23] And that is funny you say that because like other schools I visited, it's like there's no green space or there's no large space for gross motor and for climbing and for just discovering yourself and your abilities. And that, that's always really sad to me. And it's also a remind like I said, KCH was my first experience and so that's what I know. And so then when I see what's out there, even at other Montessori schools, I am like, come on, like, like I was on an accreditation visit an a MS accreditation visit, which is the American Montessori Society last fall. And it was like a very well done. Like the, the teachers were highly trained. There was actually a training center in the building for Montessori education. But the, the playgrounds were just pathetic. And so that was my, and so we always have to write recommendations and it was tricky, this location, like there wasn't a ton of space, but within, with what they had, it could have been more green. They could have planted trees or, you know, made it a priority.

Vance Crowe [00:32:37] It's, it's fascinating 'cause I remember going to a Montessori school actually impacted a decision I made just this weekend. We had giant trees cut down in my yard. Mm. And I was like, Hey guys, will you leave a 20 foot section just right at the base of the tree trunk? 'cause I don't care if it's sitting there as a log. And now my girls were out there playing on it for like an hour last night

Kerry Moran [00:32:57] Because

Vance Crowe [00:32:57] It's like, hey, there's a physical thing, we can jump off it, we can climb on it, we can pretend it's not a part of the, like in the driveway or near the house. Like it was so cool. But I don't think I would've thought of that had I not been around Montessori schools. 'cause that's exactly what they do. You cut down a tree,

Kerry Moran [00:33:13] Leave

Vance Crowe [00:33:14] The stump to climb on,

Kerry Moran [00:33:15] Make that stump just high enough. So it's not a total safety hazard, but it's still a little bit of a risk. Yes. So the, and and they're getting their hands on like real wood, you know, they don't need this like plastic play structure. And, but yeah, so climbing, I've

Vance Crowe [00:33:33] Also noticed, like Montessori does a really good job. In fact, I'm trying to do this in my backyard. We'll see if my wife will let me do it, but where you can have a slide, but it's integrated into the ground

Kerry Moran [00:33:43] And

Vance Crowe [00:33:43] So there's no access to fall off. But if you find a steep enough hill, you can have quite a slide there. Yes,

Kerry Moran [00:33:50] Yes. And yeah, I, without going into specific detail, but, but yeah, so I think our school, like that makes me think of our school being a bit scrappy. Like there are some Montessori schools in the area that have these high budgets and just endless amounts of opportunities and materials and access to carpenters who will build them anything. And our school has an old, I don't even know how long it is, 20 feet maybe from an old park in Chesterfield. And one of our dads at KCH was like, Hey, I've got this big old slide from this park that my dad, the park was closing, they were shutting down the playground. My dad and I just took it and hauled it to our farm. Would you want that? And right away I was like, yes, I want that. Like here's a hill, we are gonna stick that thing in the hill and they can go down it and yeah. And so, so yeah, so it's like using what you have too, like using the resources that you have and kind of like, you know, like that goes back to respecting nature and recycling and, and like composting and gardening and just like being aware of how living things work and how the earth is all interconnected. Like all of that is garnered from spending time outside our school. Like we have a, we have two B colonies and the children observe throughout the year. Like they take a walk. We have, we have a wooded trail and it goes down into the woods.

Kerry Moran [00:35:23] There are again fallen logs in there and we've, you know, we've asked our landscapers or or whoever's and even we've even become very close with our neighbors and they'll say like, what do you wanna do with that treats? Like, throw it down. And then our 15 month olds are using their entire body to scale over these logs on the trail. So, so that's there. But, but so then while they're, they walk the trail and then they come along and they, so there's chickens. So our primary children, so two and a half through six, they'll go in when it's their turn and they'll collect the chicken eggs and bring it in. They'll give the chickens water, they'll give them food. They'll, sometimes they'll throw more hay down if that's needed. And then they stop by the bees and they kind of just observe like, are the bees active? What's the weather like? What are those bees doing, where are they going? And then as they get to that, like the being the oldest in the school, they get to be involved in harvesting the honey. They don't, you know, we have an art and science director who ha is a beekeeper and has the, i I guess you call it the beekeeping suit. She wears and they get to observe on the hill from afar as she collects the honey and then they help her siphon it into jars and they make their own labels for the jars and they sell the honey, which is absolutely delicious and as local as you can get. And they sell it for, we have a scholarship program for families who wouldn't have access to Montessori otherwise.

Kerry Moran [00:37:01] And our five and six year olds, so I think it was two school years ago now, they raised $800 for the scholarship themselves. And so that's Montessori, that brings in nature, it brings in real life experience, it brings in concept of money, it brings in like love for others and, and community. And community is another big piece of our school particularly. And that's something as I've grown as a school leader, that's something that has become more and more significant for me. And, and I, I've seen the power of that and how if you have a good community and you have that sense of belonging, like you can't go wrong. So that's something I've grown into I think or realized in more recent years.

Vance Crowe [00:37:52] When somebody comes to Montessori, if they are a teacher that came from the old school way, what would be the hardest thing for them to adapt to,

Kerry Moran [00:38:01] To be passive? I would say to sit. So, so I work for the teacher training program in Lake St. Louis Hope Montessori, it's called, I teach classroom leadership there. And I always tell my students, you have to sit on your hands. Like you watch a three-year-old going to pour a whole bin of soapy water into a bucket and it is not lined up and it is going to go everywhere and be a huge mess. And your inclination as an adult is to be productive and get up and no stop. Let me help you. But you sit on your hands and you watch that happen because if you don't, you take away that learning opportunity from the child and as an adult, like, we've learned all of this already, but they have never experienced this before and we need to allow them to experience that so they can grow and learn.

Vance Crowe [00:39:00] Yeah, I think the best example of that was in our house, we got rid of all the plastic cups for our girls and we gave them glass. They don't drop the glasses anymore.

Kerry Moran [00:39:10] Like,

Vance Crowe [00:39:10] And people will come over and be like, oh, oh, oh, I think your kid got the wrong glass. And you're like, no, no, let him, let him do it. And I, they have, I I don't think any of them have knocked over a glass or, and you think about like the plastic cups is, is just as an example, is like setting them up for failure because a plastic cup falls over easier, it spills easier. And so now you're thinking, oh the child's a clutch or, or like a clutz or they're, oh we've got this mess and it's distracting. Whereas if you just gave them a glass endured the one time when they broke the glass, now the problem's solved.

Kerry Moran [00:39:44] Yes. And they are learning to coordinate their movements. Like it's kinda like you said, if they have a plastic cup and it falls and there is no natural consequence for that, they're not gonna learn to be more careful. But if you're giving them something glass that's going to break, if their movements aren't careful, they will learn that lesson and they, they will be more careful. And that, you know, becomes a coordinated body that otherwise maybe wouldn't happen in the same way.

Vance Crowe [00:40:13] So one of the challenges of Montessori is if you make independent children, then they come home and they make independent decisions. How did that go at your house when you were raising your kids as Montessori and now they come home and they're like, I should just be able to go to the refrigerator and get what I need out of it.

Kerry Moran [00:40:29] Yes. So that's where you have to have limits too. But, and, and that's kind of one of the, the key phrases is freedom within limits. At my house it's, it's so funny. So I have three children. It's totally a game of temperament I think. And they all have. So all of my children went to Montessori from toddler through the kindergarten year and they all have these Montessori traits that I still see. My oldest is now almost 15 and she is so incredibly astute and I think, and so our home was set up very Montessori from the start. Getting my extended family on board with that was a challenge. 'cause we had a floor bed on the floor from the time that she was a tiny actually. So when she was, we had the Moses basket in our room for the first three months and then she moved to a floor bed. So I spent weeks preparing this perfect environment where everything was safe and everything was beautiful and everything was high quality, but it was a low mattress on the floor. And the idea is she, you know, she would wake up, she would roll out of bed, she would crawl to her little Montessori shelf and she would find something that interests her at, you know, seven or eight months old. And I have videos of my oldest, I mean she, if the second she could sit up, she had a basket of books and she's turning them over and she's studying them.

Kerry Moran [00:42:06] She never put, she, she was like born wise I think. So of course with her it was like, well I'm the best parent ever. Then my middle child came along and she is movement to the extreme. So we did the floor bed with her and when she was about a month old, she was like scooting herself headfirst off of the floor bed. And then when she started crawling and like, she was trying to climb on the dresser. And so it was a different, it was a different experience with her, but it's, the spirit of her was always appreciated and respected at KCH. And I still think that she's got a lot of self-confidence. And she, and the funny thing is, is she is the most like me. So it can be painful to raise her because I know she's gonna do something before she even does it because she thinks like I do, but the spirit and the individuality is there for her. And then my son, he kind of like split the difference of, of the girls I would say. But we did the Montessori floor bed with him and, and my husband would like lose sleep. So I will say that at some point our younger two were in a crib for a period of time. But like the, and I was observing them every day. And the second I felt that it was time we went back to that floor bed.

Kerry Moran [00:43:39] But him, like his, the big thing I see in my son now and he's now nine years old, his respect for nature and his, like, he wants to stop and explore. He wants to look up what kind of insect that is. He wants to take that avocado pit and make it into a tree. Like we have many avocado seeds on our window sill that are sprouting roots right now that we can't wait to transplant. And when there's a fly in our house, you know, like the girls and, and my husband, everybody's like swatting at it and he's like, no, no, that's nature. Like we have to capture it carefully and put it back outside. So I think that they have this foundation and even though they're all very different and they got different experiences, I they got those experiences because Montessori is so individualized and because those guides observed them and put things into the environment specifically for their needs and their interests.

Vance Crowe [00:44:38] You had mentioned your, your family, did they think you were like a barefoot hippie in the way you were trying to do

Kerry Moran [00:44:43] Things? Oh yes. And your husband's

Vance Crowe [00:44:44] Family

Kerry Moran [00:44:45] Thought I was crazy? Yes, I I gave them the book Montessori from the start. My mom and my mother-in-law before our oldest came. And then the funny thing, so my brother who's a year and a half older than me, he's a freelance jour or he was a freelance journalist at the time. And so he actually had time. So when my oldest was a baby, my mom, my mom was still working for another company. She eventually became the office manager at the school. So then she was with me every day. That was a whole thing too. But, so she watched my daughter once a week. My mother-in-law watched her twice a week and then my brother watched her twice a week and my brother was the most Montessori one of all. 'cause he didn't have any children himself. And he read the book and he did what I asked him to,

Vance Crowe [00:45:30] Easy to implement.

Kerry Moran [00:45:31] Yes,

Vance Crowe [00:45:31] You're not unlearning things.

Kerry Moran [00:45:33] And like the pictures of that time, like my daughter just thrived with my brother because he followed her lead. Whereas the, the grandmas were like, I am not putting her on that mattress awake. I'm not gonna walk away and listen to her cry or I'm not gonna wait for her to crawl out of bed and start playing. So they would rock her to sleep and then set her down. So that was a constant battle. But you could see the difference with my brother and the grandma's. And at the end of the day, it's all about love. And so it was a totally fine experience.

Vance Crowe [00:46:09] One similarity between Montessori and then my own house is that there's nothing electronic. There's no electronic noises, there's no lights. And so very early on I made the authoritarian decision that like if it has batteries or lights, it doesn't come into the house. And like, you know, you have people that are like, I know you have that rule, but look at this really shiny, bright, loud thing we wanna bring in.

Kerry Moran [00:46:33] Yes. And you'd

Vance Crowe [00:46:34] Be like, thanks so much.

Kerry Moran [00:46:35] And

Vance Crowe [00:46:35] That thing would be out the door the next day. Yes.

Kerry Moran [00:46:38] And that

Vance Crowe [00:46:38] Has made my life so much better. And I don't think took anything at all away from the children to not have so many lights, so many

Kerry Moran [00:46:49] Right.

Vance Crowe [00:46:49] Cheap speakers trying to grab your attention

Kerry Moran [00:46:52] And making them passive. Like they, like I think the battery operated toys and thi it makes a child passive. Like you push the button, something happens with like three dimensional hands-on simple materials like wooden blocks, like the brain gets to do its thing. The the, you know, again, like I think we talked about a little bit, movement is so important and you're moving and you're building and you're growing and that's taken away and your brain doesn't have to work hard. And it's just a completely different experience when that happens.

Vance Crowe [00:47:26] Now, when your kids finished Montessori, did they go back into the regular public system? Were did you find a Montessori for older kids?

Kerry Moran [00:47:34] We went to an exper experiential learning school with a lot of outdoor time. So they, they went for elementary. They, you know, they were tapping the maple trees and making maple syrup. It was very beautifully aligned with Montessori. So they, they went there from KCH.

Vance Crowe [00:47:54] What do most people do?

Kerry Moran [00:47:56] We've seen it. We've seen it all. We people go to the public schools, people go to the parochial schools, the independent schools. There's a Montessori elementary school in Kirkwood that people will go there.

Vance Crowe [00:48:10] So let's talk about the spirituality side of this. 'cause that was one of your early things. What does that mean in the context of Montessori school?

Kerry Moran [00:48:18] I think it means, i I would say first and foremost is self-reflection. Like not assuming that because you're an adult, you know, or that you've got more experience so you know this child or you know, better than this parent. It's like, it's it kind of a sense of humility. It's, it's like understanding that this child's path is like this for a reason and you're going to honor that and you're going to protect that. And so really like I, the best way I can self-reflection, self-reflection is the best way I can describe that. So you're, you know, like you're making a decision or you're creating a material or you're giving a lesson to a a an individual or maybe a small group and then you're stopping and thinking about it. Why is that happening? What could have gone differently? You're never, you never stop learning. And so I think you're committed to understanding that

Vance Crowe [00:49:25] Sounds to me like to do that requires the most difficult thing, which is all of your attention, right? To be present with the child instead of being like, I'm frustrated about what you just did. I'm worried about this other thing. I'm concerned about the future. You are intellectually with them, right there, you are giving them all of your attention, which as, as, as an individual may be possible to do. But to run a program where that's what you're getting your teachers to do, your guides to do day in and day out, that's gotta be a, a thing you had to learn.

Kerry Moran [00:50:00] Yeah, it, I think in some regards, it's easier in our school than as an individual in the outside world. 'cause you know, in your family it's like you've gotta get dinner ready, you've gotta get out the door to work, you've gotta get your child to school. Like we have this beautiful, like, oh, we have all the time in the world now we do have to get to lunch and, and nap and things like that. But you can give them that uninterrupted time to do things. Like if you have a child who takes longer, maybe they're learning to tie their shoe, you're not rushing anywhere. So they can stop and spend that time tying their shoe and, and you can give them that knowing that like they're on their own unique timetable and development. And your role is to support that.

Vance Crowe [00:50:53] What do you think is the least understood part of Montessori from people on the outside?

Kerry Moran [00:50:59] I think people think that children in Montessori classrooms just do whatever they want. I I think they miss the significance of the classroom environment and all the preparation that goes into it. So the, the guide spends time before the children come in there making everything perfect. All of the materials are in a very specific place. Everything is in that room for a purpose. It's not just, oh, these look fun, let's just put this out and see who chooses it. It's, you know, like you've got your most simple material at the top left and then it goes, it becomes increasingly more difficult and abstract as you go across the shelf. So just like the words on a page. So everything is very specifically laid out in a certain order.

Vance Crowe [00:51:51] No kidding.

Kerry Moran [00:51:52] Yes. And

Vance Crowe [00:51:53] Do they know that the children, the are they kind of figure it out or into it?

Kerry Moran [00:51:56] I think initially it's kind of there, but they maybe don't realize it. And then I think as they get older they appreciate that and they also just notice like, I am going for the bottom thing on the bottom right. You know, so they realize that the more challenging things are there for them, but it's also, there are a lot of expectations within that environment. Like they can't just get something out and mess, mess around with it and then just put it back anywhere. Like the expectation is that they complete that work cycle. So they choose a material, they bring it either to a table spot or to a rug, which is their workspace. They manipulate the material, they put it back how they found it on the tray, and then they put that tray back where they found it because, and, and so it's like that is giving them an external sense of order and that's ordering their brain in the process. So yes,

Vance Crowe [00:52:53] The order that's at Montessori is amazing. I have often wondered how does one begin that? I mean, it's one thing when you have like, hey, the, the kids that are four to six have been doing this for so long that they just kind of go along with the program and we're gonna have to, but if you start from zero, how does one implement that level of order? Because it requires teachers to be on point. Everybody understand time to get it done. It seems overwhelmingly hard to have that much organization.

Kerry Moran [00:53:29] I think that the Montessori environment and all of its order and all of its beauty and all of its high quality materials, children just gravitate to it and they fall in love with it. And they feel, I think they feel like, like you you feel this energy like a, oh I'm meant to be here. Like this is, this is created for me. And they just respect it. And there are a lot of like simple, like every school year in the beginning of the year, we have what we call the phase in period where you're kind of going back to start where, oh, when I'm finished with the work, I always push my chair in or I roll. Like I always say like, oh, let's make this rug a tightly rolled cylinder. And then we, we talk about it and we pat the ends and I Montessori described the adult as the actress on the stage. And so you, you kind of hone this light. I I like to, I like to picture Mr. Rogers and how when he was taking off that sweater and hanging it up in the closet, it was like, Ooh, I wanna do that. Or I wanna tie my shoes like Mr. Rogers. And so I think about that when I'm with a child, like my voice and my movements are all very slow and calm and beautiful. And when you speak softly, the children are leaning in because they wanna know what you're gonna say and they're excited about it. And I think like that's where the preparation of the adult comes in.

Vance Crowe [00:54:55] How much of that stuff should reasonably be transplanted into the home? How much of that can be done in a, in a world where parents are picking up kids that have been patting the edge of their mats as they roll them up and then they take them home and book bags are going everywhere. And

Kerry Moran [00:55:11] I think that the, the order can be brought home and the beauty and the high quality respectful materials, but the lessons themselves, like I have seen families try to, I don't know if I'm close enough, I've seen families try to implement that in the home and the children can get burnt out. I think if you're like overly regimented at home, like home should kind of be the place where you can let it all hang out to a degree. The expectations should still be there and the movement and the order and all of that should still be there. But I don't think that the pedagogy itself needs to be in the home, if that makes sense.

Vance Crowe [00:55:53] Let's talk about the origins of Montessori. Where did this come from and what is the, what is the guiding principle that makes it so people know what it is to be a Montessori school?

Kerry Moran [00:56:05] So, so Maria Montessori was the first woman medical doctor in Italy. She got her MD I think in the late 18 hundreds. And she also had a background in anthropology. And so studying human beings was already a part of her. And then she was appointed, like, I don't know exactly what the title was, but she, she was, I don't know if you'd call her a director or what of there was a, a slum actually where migrant workers children were. And she was kind of put there to figure out what to do with these children. And they were, you know, as young as two and as old as 10 I wanna say. And there were so many of them and their parents were working and she was just expected to figure out what to do with them. And she kind of used her anthropological background and observed them and figured out, wow, they are really drawn to tiny objects and they're not really interested in these, you know, big colorful toys. And you know, they're, some of them are really small and they can't be successful in these big chairs. Like she was actually one of the first people to have like children child-sized furniture built. And, and she was influenced by, I don't know if they're, I think psychologists, Atard and Sagoon.

Kerry Moran [00:57:36] He, I believe they're both French and they had created like hands-on materials for people with like cognitive disabilities. And she kind of brought that into the fold and realized that typically developing children are thriving on the opportunity to use the materials. And so I think it was like through trial and error and she realized movement and she was very big on gardening and like she just kind of stumbled upon it and kept adding to it and adding to it. And, and people heard about her, these children who were from the slums in Italy and how successful they were. And they were tested at some point and they were performing higher than children going to like higher end schools. And people just kind of wanted to know more about it. She spent some time in India and that's where peace was very highly regarded. And so then she started bringing peace and cultural materials and understanding the geography and what happens in all places, all around the world. And it was brought, I, I wanna say like Alexander Graham Bell was super interested and wanted this for his own children and he brought her to the United States to bring the Montessori movement there. And so that's, it kind of just exploded.

Kerry Moran [00:59:07] And she was a very dynamic person and her writings are just fascinating and it's, it's tricky to read some of her writing because it's like all Italian and very flowery language and it was all translated. So I remember, you know, the fir my first crack at some of 'em, I'm like, what is she talking about? But then it's like, as I've grown older, I try to, every time our school's closed in August, I get one of Maria's books and read it again and I get some new little nugget of golden information from it still. And so just like, you know how people ask, like if you could have dinner with one person alive or dead, who would it be? It would definitely be her because she really just was a trailblazer

Vance Crowe [00:59:55] Outside of just wanting to resonate with a person that you respect and are implementing her work. What do you think you would talk with her about?

Kerry Moran [01:00:03] I would just, I would wanna know like, what do you think is the most important aspect and, and why? And, and I think I, I would also just wanna hear her tell the story. Like I've read it and read it and read it and heard it so many times from different professionals. But I would like to hear from her point of view, like, how difficult was this? Because she was like banned from Italy during World War I, I believe like Mussolini at first was all about Montessori and then he threw her out and I think that's when, when she ended up in India. But like, you know, it was hard. And she talked about how, you know, she was the only woman in these medical classes in the, in the late 18 hundreds in a very traditional country. And like I, I remember in being fascinated with this, like the men, like she wasn't allowed to work with the cadavers with the men because of, you know, they were naked and all that. And so she would go by herself at night and work in like in the basement of this medical building

Vance Crowe [01:01:08] With a

Kerry Moran [01:01:08] Ca cadaver. And it was so long ago and like the body would not smell the best and she would smoke a cigarette while she worked just so she didn't smell it. And like the men were always taunting her. And I remember like reading once that she said like they would all like, like blow at her and she would say like, the harder you blow, the higher I go. And she just was like fierce. And so just to understand all of the adversity that she came, you know, that she made it through throughout her life, I think I would love to hear about from her.

Vance Crowe [01:01:44] Now it seems like I've heard people say, well she did not successfully patent or trademark her work and so therefore anybody can claim anything Is Montessori is this right?

Kerry Moran [01:01:56] I think she was like fiercely trying to protect it and she wanted to be involved in the training of every teacher possible. And in doing that, I think it kind of like she, it would've been nice if she would've patented the Montessori name because there are daycares in St. Louis that have Montessori in the title that are just not Montessori. The teachers aren't trained. They've gone on Amazon and just bought the cheapest version of the material. They're not affiliated with any Montessori governing body. So I think in her like rigor to protect it, she didn't protect it. Like she, so she was training people in London, she was training people in India and she trained people in the United States and a lot in Italy. And then she wanted to know every trainer and her son Mario Montessori ended up taking over from her and he was training people, but nobody got the Montessori named patented. So yeah, I'm not exactly sure why, but

Vance Crowe [01:03:01] I mean, I know that was a problem. This is like a big contentious part. I remember the first time I ever encountered Montessori, it was in Mendocino, California. So to me the Montessori people were like the hippiest of the hippie, hippie people. And if you would talk to the woman that I knew, her name was Athena Melville, she was an instructor out there, really interesting lady. And she would become incensed if she heard some of these schools were calling themselves Montessori because they weren't doing it the right way. And in some regards I would kind of roll my eyes and be like, ah, what do you need a governing body for? But as a subject of a governing body, why does one need a governing body for Montessori,

Kerry Moran [01:03:44] For quality control? I mean, plain and simple, like having affiliation with the American Montessori society, I know that I can get support, I know I can get advice, I know that my teachers can attend their conferences and learn more. And that the research is there, all of it access to quality individuals who can provide professional development for us. This sounds

Vance Crowe [01:04:10] So different than regular teaching. Like do you really need advice from people? Like is is like, tell me why this

Kerry Moran [01:04:19] For continued inspiration? I think,

Vance Crowe [01:04:21] Okay,

Kerry Moran [01:04:22] So, so I lead a cohort of, there's like, I wanna say there's 42 heads of school around the country who are all affiliated with a MS. And we talk about school leadership once a month. And some, I love my cohort, it's become like this almost like friendship and it's all on Zoom and then we'll meet up at the conferences and stuff. But I, it's just like with that multi-age classroom, I learn as much from working with them as I do give them advice. And, and one of the assistant head of school at our school, Kim, she teaches the math and the sensorial curriculum at the training center in Lake St. Louis. And she comes back to us just like floating on air because she has imparted this wisdom and these adult learners have asked her these questions that she's never thought about before. And so it's like in giving back, you're getting just as much. And so I think that's, I don't know if that's answering your question, but it's the consistent inspiration. And there are like, there's always more than one way to look at things. And I think that seeing these schools and still being a part of these accreditation visits to make sure these schools are upholding the standards, I am constantly taking pictures and like texting our teachers back home like, Hey, we should do this with our food prep table. Or Oh, look at this, look at this outdoor structure they have that would be so simple to create.

Kerry Moran [01:05:53] So just inspiration, I think

Vance Crowe [01:05:55] When you get accredited, I, I assume you get accredited.

Kerry Moran [01:05:58] Yes.

Vance Crowe [01:05:59] Are you worried, are you nervous when people are coming by to visit your school?

Kerry Moran [01:06:03] I'm nervous but I am also like, it's, it's a combination of like, I want it to go beautifully and I also like feel excited for them to see. And I love the feedback, like even the negative feedback. Like I like to hear what we could do better. That that's what we're all about is like continuing to grow. And if, if we were just gonna be in a silo and not continue to reach, then we shouldn't be doing what we're doing. And so it is a nerve wracking experience and it is a ton of work, but it is so it's like a shot of energy for our community.

Vance Crowe [01:06:41] So in your position you have, i I very complicated work. It would seem to me, 'cause not only do you need to find the parents that want to bring their children to that school, but you also have to find the employees to that are either wanna learn the system or know the system and integrate them into your world. What is more difficult about being an employer than you expected?

Kerry Moran [01:07:06] Hmm. Well I would say that has changed over recent time. Like the pandemic definitely changed the landscape of being an employer. People, you know, need more than they used to. And it's sometimes more challenging to inspire people than it used to be. But I, I, I don't know, I I think that, wait, I lost my train of thought.

Vance Crowe [01:07:37] I personally think it is a lot harder to find new people than it used to be five or 10 years ago. It may just be that in my own bubble has gotten much, much smaller.

Kerry Moran [01:07:47] It can be, I think when someone sets foot in our school, I am like observing them and I'm like, who is this person? Like who, like Kirkwood high school child development students come and they are there for, you know, once a week for an hour and I am watching them. And one of my lead guides right now was a child development student in 2018. And so I am like the same with the children. I am looking at this person for the possibility of who they could become. And I'm like showing them the moon and the process like look at, like look at what you could do. And if someone's just like really lovely, I'm like, you and I are driving out to Lake St. Louis together, I'm showing you the Montessori training center now so that when you finish your education, you can go do this.

Vance Crowe [01:08:41] Is that what it requires? So you go, a normal Montessori teacher goes and gets their teaching certificate at college.

Kerry Moran [01:08:47] Any background? Montessori actually, Dr. Montessori actually said that she thought it was ideal for someone to come from a non-teaching background because they were more open and flexible. So the assistant head of school has a background in biology, I think biology, biochem, I don't know, I can't remember, but she has a back plant science, Kim's background's plant science. And so she stumbled upon it when her daughter was two years old and kind of had a complete career change and hasn't looked back. So you can come from any background. And then the Montessori certification program, the one that we work for in Lake St. Louis is a minimum of a year. So you're doing a rigorous, it's like nine weeks of the summer you're at that training center, you're learning the curriculum, you're learning the materials, you're learning the philosophy, and then you're doing an internship that's a school year and you have like hundreds of hours of observation. You make your own materials, you write papers about each of the areas of the pedagogy, and then throughout the year you have four day seminars you're attending. It's a rigorous process. And I ha that's another thing since C-O-V-I-D-I have found that it's taking teachers and training more than a year to complete the training.

Vance Crowe [01:10:10] Why do you think that is?

Kerry Moran [01:10:13] I think people are, I don't, I I feel like again, people are just like burnt out or they are just not the, the world has just changed in such a way. And I was at a a, a leadership lab POS in January and I was talking with some very experienced heads of school that I've looked up to since I was really young. And they were saying like, your inclination is to be like, well, when I went through training we had to make our own, you know, we had to color each picture of the materials by hand. And now you're just given them an album and you just have to put it in, put it together in sheet protectors. But you can't view people like that anymore. Like I think something I've come to know as a school leader is you, you see the person for who they are. So it's almost like a parallel, and I'm actually speaking about this at a conference next month. It's a parallel between the, the guide in the classroom. So the guide with the children like me as the head of school, it's like those guides are like my children. And so it's like seeing them for the individual that they are and meeting their needs and helping them to be inspired and to continue their growth and like finding what their strengths are and figuring out how I can plug that in at our school.

Vance Crowe [01:11:38] Was it difficult to move from being a Montessori teacher to being a Montessori administrator?

Kerry Moran [01:11:45] Yes, it was. I I was young, so when I took over the school, I was in my twenties still and all of my employees were older than me. Oh

Vance Crowe [01:11:56] Man. Like

Kerry Moran [01:11:56] All of them. Yes. And and many many of them knew me from my earlier fun days, like I talked about earlier. So, and it's, it's funny because they, you know, I would come back from college every summer and I married my high school sweetheart, so ev so they knew about him and they, they called him the old ball and chain. And so I would come home and they'd be like, you still got the old ball and chain. So they knew me as this like young fun college girl and then all of a sudden I was their boss. And so that was a learning curve. But, but I also, like, I had their respect and like they believed in me and they believed in what I was capable of. So I think the hardest part was on my end, not theirs. So it was like, it was lonely. Like suddenly this person that I had this rapport with, the rapport had to be different. It had to be more professional and I had to make decisions that they maybe wouldn't always like. And so that's where that like building that community and appreciating those people for who they are and like, like checking in on them. Like I remember early on when someone would start at the school like, and they'd tell me about like, oh my dog. And I'd be like, oh, what's your dog's name? And then I would like go write it down in a notebook. So then later I could be like, how's Benji doing? Like what's going on with that? Because those personal touches are what make people feel loved and appreciated. And I think that's when, and so like during, so when I took over the school, I remember Florence being like, well you're probably gonna lose somebody because, you know, people just get used to things in a certain way and they, you know, they want.

Kerry Moran [01:13:40] And and I remember her being like, it'll probably be Kim, like Kim's probably, she probably is gonna go do her own thing. And I was like, okay, well that's really sad. 'cause Kim's really cool and Kim and I became so very close and she ended up, she's my assistant head of school now and we've worked together for years and developed just a, a very unique and very cool relationship. And then same thing, like I moved our school's location. So we were in that mid-century house on Big Bend for 32 years, I think, or 30, yeah, 32 years. And then in 2018 I was trying to buy that property and Florence and I could not agree on a price and I could not get a loan for what she wanted to sell it for. And in, in the meantime I had discovered our, our Sugar Creek location and it was a church I, and I used to just drive by it and think, gosh, that's so cool. Like that would be such a neat space for Montessori. And then I remember when I couldn't get, I was devastated, like I could not get Florence and I, we couldn't get on the same page about the, the cost of the building. And I drove over to Sugar Creek and I sat in the parking lot and I said, oh, please be for sale. Please be for sale. And I remember I went home and I opened my laptop and started searching commercial properties in, in Kirkwood. And it was the first picture that popped up and I was like, oh my gosh, this is ha this is meant to be.

Kerry Moran [01:15:14] And my husband was like, no, stop. You cannot afford that. Like that's not gonna happen. And I was like,

Vance Crowe [01:15:20] Yes

Kerry Moran [01:15:21] It is.

Vance Crowe [01:15:21] And that

Kerry Moran [01:15:22] Again, that's where that like fearless, like I just had this intense inner drive and it was happening. Like, and so I remember Kim at one point saying like, if you ever needed help, like financially or otherwise, like just just say, and I remember like calling her and being like, you're never gonna believe what I just saw. And it's, this has to happen. And right away she was like, yes, like we're doing she and her husband. And so then we formed an LLC and it was, so it was community covenant church and it was an older congregation and they're starting to dwindle and we went over there, I re I made Kim come with me and the whole board was sitting there in this sanctuary space and they were trying to figure out what they were gonna do. And I was like, I just feel compelled to tell you people like tell you about Montessori and tell you about our school. And I remember I took the class picture, our, our primary class, set it on the table and I talked about Montessori and I said, this is us. And they like, so then we left and I was kinda like, I I again, I kind of knew because they were like smiling and nodding like

Vance Crowe [01:16:38] Yes we're seeing a pattern,

Kerry Moran [01:16:39] Like we are loving this person. Yeah. And the realtor was in the room and he called me like right after we left and he said, okay, they're in love with you. They really believe in what you're doing. They want something that's good for the community. And he's like, and I wanna get my kids on the wait list there immediately. And his three children went to KCH.

Vance Crowe [01:16:58] Wow.

Kerry Moran [01:16:59] Yeah. And

Vance Crowe [01:17:00] That's a sales pitch right there. Good for you.

Kerry Moran [01:17:02] Yeah. And what else? I mean the whole experience was just serendipitous. And we were the lowest bidders too. There were developers that were gonna tear it down and put, you know, million dollar houses on it and they just, I mean they just believed in what we were doing. And then at also another little side note, that's interesting. Our school was a licensed childcare facility at the time and we were moving and in order to move into this space, it was zoned for a school or a church. And technically we weren't known as a school by the state of Missouri or recognized as a school. And I just said like, oh, we're, we're a school. And then I'm like, Kim's always like, you just leap and figure it out as your free falling.

Vance Crowe [01:17:54] And I

Kerry Moran [01:17:56] Think I just, I just know it's like, I just think if you believe in something so strongly, like you can manifest it. And so I applied with the state to be recognized as a school. We found out we got school status like the day before we closed on the property. So it worked out.

Vance Crowe [01:18:16] So you've been doing this for how many years? So

Kerry Moran [01:18:18] I've been a part of Kirkwood Children's House since 2003. So 23 years.

Vance Crowe [01:18:26] So this may seem like a non-sequitur, but I think it leads to the future, which is have you used AI very much?

Kerry Moran [01:18:34] A little bit. I am pretty analog, so I avoid a lot. But Kim's always like, come on, you can chat GPT, that and it and it'll, it'll you know, be more smooth or quicker or like, like we're writing a scope and sequence for our school that's like very like the developmental milestones and the curriculum and it's kind of a black and white situation and I've been really stubborn and I'm like, no, I'm writing this myself. Like I want it to reflect who we are. And Kim's like, if you just put that in chat, it would very quickly come up for it, come up with it for you. So I am warming up to the idea, like I, but I always want it to be like our voice. So I don't ever just like carte blanche ask Chad to come up with something. I usually say like, here's my thoughts, can you clean that up for me a little bit? That kind of thing. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:19:31] Which is, there's something deeply important about taking your ideas and putting them into words because that is the act of thinking, right? Yes. That's where you're converting emotion and kind of nebulous thoughts into these are logical thoughts that we can deal with and if you skip out of that step, there's some amount of that thinking that just didn't occur. There's like a cleanup, there's like an self editing, there's all kinds of things. The step that I'm think a lot about is when intelligence or if intelligence becomes a commodity, anybody can have it at as much as they want. You know, you can have Einstein level. Well then what will the role of education change into if you're not trying to make, you know, kids that have absorbed tons of facts or kids that know how to do specific things. What do you think the future of education is? Is it going to change in the world of ai?

Kerry Moran [01:20:26] I do, I do think it is, I am very hopeful it doesn't touch our little early childhood bubble very much because it's the, it's the body, it's the physical body and the movement that that brain, the brain needs that foundation and, and it's the heart. It's kind of like you said, it's like, it's funny because like I'll put something into chat to clean it up and then it cleans it up and gives it back and I'm like, yeah, no, I'm gonna change that again. So I probably spent as much time as I would if I just did it myself because I wanna make sure that the emotion is behind it still. And I just don't know that AI will ever have that. And the physical side,

Vance Crowe [01:21:07] It's pretty shocking to me how good AI has become. Like I was prepared for it to be like really cool,

Kerry Moran [01:21:15] But

Vance Crowe [01:21:16] I have now done enough with it. So I took almost 500 podcasts and transcribe them and then had to analyze them. So now it has thousands of hours

Kerry Moran [01:21:27] Of

Vance Crowe [01:21:28] Me talking to people and other people talking back with me and I put in all of these speeches that I've given. So it has this like knowledge of my work and the way that I think when I ask it a question, it gives me an answer better than my wife could

Kerry Moran [01:21:43] Because

Vance Crowe [01:21:43] Like it has not just like, oh I've listened to 20% of your episodes. It's listened to every single one of them and knows every single thing about it.

Kerry Moran [01:21:51] Yes.

Vance Crowe [01:21:51] And so in this experience, it's been kind of scary to me because I start realizing, I don't know what you can do to prepare your children in a world where a computer can, anything that's ever been digitized, any aspect of your life, all of those things can immediately be grabbed onto and presented back to you.

Kerry Moran [01:22:16] So

Vance Crowe [01:22:16] My thought, and I'd be interested to hear what you, what you think about this is I think education will be about creating preferences because the thing that emotions give you is preferences

Kerry Moran [01:22:28] And

Vance Crowe [01:22:28] That like you actually need to have preferences in order to have a sense of style or design or that you are putting things into the world. What are we, other than our knowledge and our preferences? Well if knowledge is now knocked out, now we're preferences.

Kerry Moran [01:22:44] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:22:44] How is this explanation jiving with your

Kerry Moran [01:22:46] Understanding? So what do you mean by like, so what would preferences like it discovering your preferences mean in like what would that look like in early

Vance Crowe [01:22:54] Childhood? Well, okay, so I'm using the example from Steve Jobs, right? So he said the hardest part about designing the iPod was you couldn't just go get engineers and say, Hey engineers build me the best way to listen to music that you can in a small device.

Kerry Moran [01:23:11] Because

Vance Crowe [01:23:12] They would focus relentlessly on the engineering part of it. They would focus on like, can we make it smaller? Can we get the the board to work properly? What you needed to do was find engineers that had a crazy obsession with music. They loved the way that guitar sounded. They care about resonance and the, and he is like, so you have this thing called the design paradox. The only way you can know which engineer to hire is if you actually have knowledge of music to Yes.

Kerry Moran [01:23:40] And

Vance Crowe [01:23:40] So to me this is like, this will be what what humans will be. You'll be able to make the AI do anything,

Kerry Moran [01:23:47] But

Vance Crowe [01:23:47] You have to have a strong enough preference. You have to have some sort of pull and understanding of music or art or how things work.

Kerry Moran [01:23:55] Yes.

Vance Crowe [01:23:56] In order to tell the AI what to build so that it's not always just building you the median of what every everything else has been.

Kerry Moran [01:24:04] So, but still, so, okay, I, I hear that, but the, I I guess I still come back to like the, the child needing and, and maybe I'm missing the point here, but the child needing that, like that experience with touching those materials and feeling that inside their brain and their body, like I don't know how AI can do

Vance Crowe [01:24:28] That. I don't think AI can do that. That's what I'm Okay. I I'm, we're aligned on this.

Kerry Moran [01:24:32] Okay.

Vance Crowe [01:24:32] That I think like the human needs experience climbing their tiny body over a log because that's going to give them a visceral experience to be able to describe what happens when your chest gets all scratched up. Yes. Or I, I now know that I can get dirt on my clothes and that will make me look a certain way. Like all of these things you have. But I, I think the model that I grew up with, the one was like, alright, you're gonna learn dates because you gotta have it on the test and you're gonna learn, if you're a medical doctor for example, we're gonna teach you chemical interactions up to this point and then we're gonna have the pharmacy do most of it. I think there's just a whole bunch of knowledge that we've spent a whole lot of time Yes. Cramming into human beings.

Kerry Moran [01:25:15] Yes.

Vance Crowe [01:25:16] That will now be virtually worthless.

Kerry Moran [01:25:18] And

Vance Crowe [01:25:18] That what will actually matter is can the human being extract certain concepts of those knowledge and then have preferences to say, I wanna build it this way as opposed to that way. Yes.

Kerry Moran [01:25:31] Okay. Yes, I am an, I am agreement with that.

Vance Crowe [01:25:34] Yes. Okay. Because I, I think education's going to have to change very, very quickly. And I have friends right now that are going to homeschool their children and do it almost entirely with ai.

Kerry Moran [01:25:46] How

Vance Crowe [01:25:46] Does that strike you?

Kerry Moran [01:25:48] What about the social piece that you just still being in community with other people? I, I definitely agree with you. There is a place for it there. Like it can be utilized, it can save time, it can, you know, definitely change the landscape of education, particularly when you're older, but you still need people, which I know you're saying that too, but I, I still come back to like someone who's homeschooling. Like there's something about spending your day with people who aren't your family and learning what's acceptable and learning what's not acceptable and learning how to engage with others that I don't think you'd get from homeschooling unless you are very intentional about it, I guess.

Vance Crowe [01:26:29] I mean, so I guess what I'm abstracting out of your answer is there's a whole lot of the way that human beings interact with one another that like, that is going to be important. Whether AI is filling the knowledge void, it is the human interactions and how to deal with problems and things like that.

Kerry Moran [01:26:45] Yes.

Vance Crowe [01:26:46] I, I agree. I wonder, I wonder what education looks like when rote knowledge is, is gone,

Kerry Moran [01:26:58] Is

Vance Crowe [01:26:58] Free.

Kerry Moran [01:27:01] Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I, I would love to see that with my, my, so my children, like my oldest is a freshman in high school now and she is using AI a lot and she, you know, math is a, not her favorite I guess. And so she's using AI a lot for math. And I do want, like, I, I think it's, it's helpful but it's also like, I don't know, I guess I think about like what, and I've said this to my son before, it's like, what if you were like stranded on an island by yourself and you didn't have a, like what would you do? How would you think? Like there's something about that like self-reliance that I, I like to like keep in the, the back of my mind with all of this. I don't know if that makes sense.

Vance Crowe [01:27:49] Well I guess I'm not saying this would be one or the other. I'm trying to say if I'm going to make sure my children are prepared for an AI future, what is that path?

Kerry Moran [01:28:00] I dunno, I don't know.

Vance Crowe [01:28:03] I'm, I'm confident that the years up till six years old, probably nine, maybe even 12, need to have very little computers in them.

Kerry Moran [01:28:12] And

Vance Crowe [01:28:12] In fact, I had the, the not great experience, like the, the stomach churning experience of my daughters and I were talking about trees and I love trees. I mean, I, I have an obsession with trees. And so my daughter was like, why don't we just ask AI how those roots grow in that tree? And I was like, 'cause I don't wanna ask ai, I want,

Kerry Moran [01:28:33] I wanna

Vance Crowe [01:28:33] See it dead, this answer. And then you realize like, oh man, this is actually a new problem, which is AI knows more than your parents. Right. It knows more than your spouse. It knows more than your friends. It knows more than all of the teachers that you know.

Kerry Moran [01:28:48] Yes.

Vance Crowe [01:28:49] And so there's, I I spend a lot of time thinking about like, if you know these, if you can predict that these things are going to happen, it's just going to continue to get better, it's going to be more ubiquitous than what should we do? And I'm very open to your ideas.

Kerry Moran [01:29:05] I don't know, I need to think about that more. I, I guess I, I am fearful of it and just, I, I don't know, I'm very like anti-technology, not overall, but since I spend so much of my time in the early childhood realm, like I am ki like, I feel like I'm fiercely fighting it all the time. And so I, I kind of have like put that in a little box that I'm scared of, I guess. And so I know that it's coming. I know that it's happening. I I just wanna,

Vance Crowe [01:29:44] You may be in the one spot that won't be impacted by it in the same way. 'cause I think, like I don't, I can't imagine that there's a lot that AI could do for your sub 6-year-old that you'd be happy

Kerry Moran [01:29:57] With. No, it's more the adults that are, it's more like the pre like I do wonder about the, like the Montessori training aspect of the adult. And I do, I know that that can be enhanced. But I guess like thus far my experience with the, like the training of adults with Montessori, I have like, like last, this last school year I had, or or last summer I had a, a woman who English was not her first language and she wrote a paper for me and I know how she speaks and I've seen like shorthand emails and things, right. And suddenly there's this like perfectly eloquently written paper and I was not cool with that because I wasn't sure how much she actually learned from it. Right.

Vance Crowe [01:30:49] Yeah.

Kerry Moran [01:30:49] And so I did kind of say like, I, I, you know, I took points off for her. I, but then I also, I guess I sympathized with her because sh you know, she does have a little bit of a disadvantage not speaking English and writing this paper. So I kind of was like, thank you and I'm taking points off because it's not totally your voice and I know that. So I don't know.

Vance Crowe [01:31:16] And it'll be interesting to hear. Are your conferences, are they a, are they now starting to have sessions on AI in the future and

Kerry Moran [01:31:24] A little bit Yes. The, the a MS conferences are slowly having AI integrated and I don't, so the, the regional conference that's coming up next month, I don't recall seeing anything about a MI or not a MI AI in that. So yeah,

Vance Crowe [01:31:42] I, I mean I would actually advocate that Montessori should keep as much AI out as they can, but that, but that like this will be what the, the, you know, the children are gonna walk out from this experiential learning into a world filled with everything made by ai.

Kerry Moran [01:31:57] Yes.

Vance Crowe [01:31:58] Okay. So maybe we should wrap up not in the AI doom world. Yes, please. But instead, if somebody was like, Hey, I like the idea of this Montessori school, how would you recommend to somebody living anywhere in the country, anywhere around the, the world, like how would they go about deciding whether a Montessori school was a good one and the right one for their kids?

Kerry Moran [01:32:19] I always say go observe, you know, go into the school, meet with the head or meet with the admissions director and just get a sense of what's happening there. Who's the community? Who are the people? I'm a pretty big believer in, I know that there can be like chain schools that can be done well, but I think it comes down to the individual. And I think like smaller high quality, it's, it's easier to maintain high quality when it's a smaller individual, you know, like small group of people or organizing the school. So I, I believe in that, but that's not always the case. And I think just going in there and picturing your child and can you see your child in there? And I, I think your parent gut, like you need to listen to it. Like if your gut is like, something's off about this or, yes. Like, so often when I give a tour, like I'll ha like I remember there's a, a new toddler family that just started and I re I had written in my notes about them. The mom was like, I want this for her. Like, she was gushing about it. And like so many parents are like, I wish I would've had this when I was growing up. To which I always say, me too and that's why I'm creating it for your children. So I think just going and just getting the feel of the school and what it's about and also doing your research and asking, are these teachers certified?

Kerry Moran [01:33:56] Like who are they certified with? Because there are of course online Montessori training programs that are just not authentic. And I don't, I, again, going back to me being analog, like you have to get your hands on the materials in person. Like how can you learn about the triennial cube when you're on a screen with someone who's in another country or another state or something. So like, are those teachers certified? Who are they certified? Is the school affiliated? Because I, again, I think if you're in a silo and you're not learning from others or like going to conferences from a MS or a MI, then, you know, you're probably not continuing to grow. And so I, I would say those are the things, like what

Vance Crowe [01:34:42] Are your thoughts on the Montessori education beyond six years old?

Kerry Moran [01:34:47] I think it depends on the school. I, I think it's great, but it has to be done right. I, I do also think sometimes children need to start to integrate into the world as they get older. And not everything is about following their instincts. When you get to a certain point, like you have to be able to, and, and again, like talking about ai, this could all change very rapidly, but currently, like you do need to go and be able to, you know, listen to an employer or do what the group is doing or, you know, be successful in a career as it currently stands, I guess. And so I, I, I love Montessori Elementary. I haven't found a perfect fit, like for my own family locally. We do have some of our families who have gone on to the Montessori elementary schools around St. Louis and have really enjoyed most facets of it. But I don't know, I, I I think it depends on the school.

Vance Crowe [01:35:59] And if people wanted to get a tour of your school, how would they go about doing that?

Kerry Moran [01:36:04] They can call the school, they can email me and then we, we do all of our tours on one morning a week just because I don't want adults traipsing in and out of the classroom environments all the time. So our school does Wednesday mornings. We do have a pretty lengthy wait list. So to it, it's, it's kind of sad because like I, I want everybody to know about Montessori, so I will talk about it passionately to everybody and then they get excited and then it's like, yeah, your child might not ever get in though. So it's like knowing the mo because

Vance Crowe [01:36:44] There's so much demand, there's

Kerry Moran [01:36:45] So much demand and they, you know, there's other, and, and we do kind of like, I like I'll pass them to other schools in the area that I know are good, that might be bigger and might have more openings. But it, it comes down to timing and you know, I'm, again, like when a prospective parent is sitting with me on the couch at my school, I'm kind of like, I'm observing them. I'm, I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm evaluating them, but I'm thinking like, do you understand the culture here? Would you fit into that culture? Like, and, and the the quickest thing for me to, to gain is like, is this person respectful of early childhood or are they just an adult that's way up here in the corporate world that just wants a 10 hour place to stick their kid while they're working? And so, and I, it's like a combo of like educating them and like figuring out who they are at the same time.

Vance Crowe [01:37:39] Wow.

Kerry Moran [01:37:40] Yeah, that's

Vance Crowe [01:37:41] A, I mean, and you mentioned earlier about community being important to you, that's the curation of the people that are in the community.

Kerry Moran [01:37:47] Yes, absolutely. And you know, like just telling them like, like it's, but then I also like to think of like, oh, those are daycare people and I'm gonna save them. Like, I, I think about that too, like, oh no, no, like we're, and and anytime someone says like, well we're looking for daycare for our, and I'm like, oh, well we're not a daycare, we're a school. We just happen to serve children of that age. And, you know, and then I always say like, we are not open as much as a daycare either because you don't want your child like at a place that's stale, that has no breaks and no time to inspire. And so it's like we do close our school a few times a year to do professional development and to take care of our teachers and to make sure and, and also to really clean things and, you know, continue that high quality. And, and I always think to myself, if I am not providing that high quality that I've always set out to, to provide, then I don't wanna do this anymore. And so, you know, depending on that, what that looks like, I'm making sure that I'm telling those prospective parents the second they set foot in the door, what that looks like.

Vance Crowe [01:38:58] And if you have so much demand that you can't get people through your waiting list, what keeps you from opening Kch two?

Kerry Moran [01:39:06] Because I, well, I've thought about it, I have teetered on that so many times. Last year I had a, a friend of mine who is a contractor come and like, walk the property and tell me where we could bump out and have another class. But it's like every I, I'm guided by this internal thing again. Like I'm, I think there's a Montessori child trapped inside me, but

Vance Crowe [01:39:30] I'm,

Kerry Moran [01:39:31] I am like, I can't bring myself to do it. And I think it's because I want to make sure that I am maintaining the quality myself. And so it's like, I wanna know the teachers very well. I wanna know the children, I wanna know their parents, I know their grandparents, I know their stuffed animals names a lot of times and I know their pets. And so it's like that's how I can make sure that I'm providing an education for those people. And if I get too big and I am too far removed, then I can't do that. And you know, I know you can rely on others and I've definitely hired some really great people and that's, that's been a big thing too. Like I remember in, in grad school taking a school administration course and the head of school who led it said Hire good people and get out of their way. And I definitely subscribe to that, like I believe in that, but I, at the end of the day, like I think the individual who's like creating it all, being involved in all aspects of it, you can't go wrong with that. So.

Vance Crowe [01:40:42] Well this has been a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much for

Kerry Moran [01:40:45] Coming back. Thank you too. Thanks for having me.

Vance Crowe [01:40:48] That's gonna do it for this week's episode. Thank you so much for hanging out till the end. We have been running these interest

Ad segment / testimonials (multiple voices) [01:40:54] Based communications courses and they are going great. If you have been thinking about how can I improve my skillset on how I negotiate, how I talk with people about conflict and how I present, then go to Articulate Ventures slash IBC to learn about interest based communicating and some of our upcoming classes. We'll be back next week with another great episode with an interesting person. Good negotiation is one where both parties walk away slightly disappointed. That was probably my default world model BV before Vance. Well, Vance had a lot of these models that he created. I ingrained a lot of these models so deeply from working with Vance for a long time that I started to recommunicate them to my friends and my friends' eyes had the same sort of LightUp of understanding of like, this is a thing that could help me be more effective in life. Whenever Vance let me know that he was working on sort of putting this into more of a workshop form. I was like, yeah man, I want that for my team. Like now if my first two employees go through this so that we have this shared set of context and a shared set of language that's gonna create value for my team going forward. I wanted to get better at communication myself. I knew I had good ideas in my head that I wanted to be able to communicate to potential investors and I was not super confident in being able to do that before. I thought that negotiation was basically for people in a boardroom, like CEOs, words like shareholder are involved. So I thought that you had to have a lot of resources at your disposal to even care about negotiations.

Ad segment / testimonials (multiple voices) [01:42:29] Both People had to lose or both people weren't happy in the end. I found that what you both want is achievable by understanding the needs of the other person more. A negotiation is really a way to solve a problem that you have. You can rearrange the world in such a way where all parties get something that they're happy with. So you don't need to possess great resources to be involved in a negotiation or to really benefit from knowing how to negotiate. RJ and I initially were two different businesses. It became clear to us over the long term that we would be much more bullish on our shared future if we like found a way to like actually be one entity, one whole working together that required us to have what to many would be very hard conversations because we are both CEOs of our own independently funded businesses. But we were able to have conversations and get to the root of what our actual interests and what our actual skill sets were. Having both people understand this pattern of communication was useful to pull out those tools when we needed them the most in like difficult conversations. It's very helpful to have that quick language to do something more productive than continue to like misunderstand or whatever, whatever else you're doing. Building relationships isn't just you communicating to the other person. It's also figuring out how to let the other person communicate to you so that they trust you. Getting into a real conversation and, and diffusing tensions before you, you know, get to business. A lot of people have a default model where they're like, I wanna raise my own money. I wanna start my own business. I wanna do my own thing.

Ad segment / testimonials (multiple voices) [01:44:01] We find that they have specific interests that could help us. We become allies instead of competitors. I guess the course gives you tools to know that you can say the right words to like extract those things out of the ether and put them in your life. Learning interest-based communications from Vance might actually be the single highest leverage skillset that I ever developed before starting this company. I'm by default an introvert. I think that I've developed the ability to interact with people in such a way that it's energizing and it's fun and I look forward to interacting with strangers on a regular basis. You should just take it, do it already. Yeah. I feel like you should just do it like, no, I don't know. I feel like it's life content. It's like definitely fun life content. I am doing exactly what I want to be doing with my life. Interspace communications did that for me more than anything else that I've learned.