A Real Estate Developer on Deal Making, Community Opposition, and Building Trust as an Outsider

Vance Crowe [00:00:01] As the crow flies on the Vance Crowe Podcast, welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. When I am in town and I'm having a great conversation, one of my favorite questions to ask is, who is one of your favorite conversationalists? Who is somebody you love running into? And you never really know whose names you're gonna hear? And it's kind of fun. You can actually watch people get excited when you ask this question. But there's one name, a guy named Mike Sansone that I've heard, actually several people in the city of St. Louis bring up. And so for a long time, I've wanted to spend more time with him. I've run into him before. We've actually been on a couple of video calls, but I'd never actually sat down and talked with him. And it was really a strange and exciting experience because it was like talking with somebody you knew really well, even though I'd never really met him before. Mike and I talk all about real estate and some development work and how he thinks about grit and moving forward, and how at such a young age, he's built up a real estate company. And we're gonna get to that. It is a great interview, but I have two things I wanted to bring up. The first thing is thank you, thank you, thank you to the group of people that raise their hand to be beta testers. I am full, full, full, so thank you to the people that asked for another spot. I'm gonna try and find a way to maybe create a second set of testers. I have a whole bunch of people in the network right now, and it's exciting because they're just getting started. They're starting to meet one another. They're starting to watch some of the content and even hearing a little bit of feedback here and there.

Vance Crowe [00:01:35] So I'm gonna start making changes, and I wanna make it so it's better for the next set. And maybe what I'll do is now that I'm not accepting beta users, if somebody wants to put their hand up to be in the first wave of users that I'll have used once, I've made some updates, and hopefully I'll have another class in there. So if, if you're still interested, what I'd like you to do is go visit Vance Crowe dot com and there, as soon as you get there, it'll pop up. And if you're a person that wants to put your name up to be in that first wave, just go to that website, put your name in that list, and then you'll automatically receive it when we open it up to the next wave. Thank you. This is exciting and, and it's really pretty cool to see people from all over the country start connecting. So looking forward to seeing more of you joining the network and seeing the classes and stuff. And that is all a result of people saying they wanted to support the podcast. If you didn't hear last week, what I talked about is I am starting a program where there's gonna be classes and a subscription model to be introduced to people that are just like you, people that are fans of the podcast, people that care about communications, people that wanna get better. So I'm in testing mode right now. I'm not actually talking too much about it or showing anything about it, but I'm just saying if you're one of those people that would like to get involved with that, I would love to have you there. There was a really, really amazing thing happening so far. Anyway, now onto the second thing. You do not have to be in the network to be a member of the book club, but we are right now reading the Thomas Jefferson Bible.

Vance Crowe [00:03:10] This is a really interesting recommendation so far in the book club. Every time we've had a different month, we've been able to experience some crazy new thing. And the book always seems to match with what's going on in the world. For example, we read The Naked Sun, right as Coronavirus was coming in. And the premise of the Naked Sun is that these people are too afraid to be in contact with one another because they've lived in such a futuristic society that they only see each other over video. So it was really weird and interesting, and this book was suggested last month, so we're gonna do it. And it turns out that right now there's all kinds of really intense pressure throughout the United States. People demanding change, people saying, we don't need any change. And it's probably a good idea to go and read some Lindy books and people that are talking about things that happened a long time ago. So we are gonna read the Jefferson Bible, if you're not familiar with this, I am told, although I haven't read the book yet, that it is about the life of Jesus with all the mysticism and the things that couldn't be proven taken out. Now, I think to some people that is blasphemy. You know, you're not allowed to take anything outta the Bible. I heard that Thomas Jefferson didn't want it published till after he had died. So other people might view it in the way that it's a really interesting way to look at the Bible and maybe to study some of the teachings and the philosophies that can be hard to decipher through stories sometimes. So I'm looking forward to reading it. I'm gonna leave a little note right here of a quote that I read right on the very first page that I'd like to share with you, and you can stop it and read it if you'd like to.

Vance Crowe [00:04:49] So now I am on to the podcast with Mike Sansone. Thank you so much for being here. Michael Sansone, welcome to the podcast.

Mike Sansone [00:05:04] Thank you, Vance. How you doing?

Vance Crowe [00:05:05] I'm great. So you are here in St. Louis, and you're actually in a totally different realm than I am, although we run into one another every once in a while. You are in real estate, particularly with multifamily, and I think this is such an interesting market right now, because I look at trying to get into the world of apartment buildings, and I think, man, that is scary. There are, the government is saying you don't have to pay your rent, and they're giving people money and people are outta jobs. Are you like at the edge of your seat, gripping your chair, you know, with white knuckles right now? What's going on in your head?

Mike Sansone [00:05:40] Yeah, I mean, it's, it's definitely an interesting time for us. I mean, I think that if you're in the business that I'm in, which is again on the, the multifamily, but specifically really on the development side, you, you have an appetite for risk anyway. So I think that as you know, issues like this come up, you, you, I would never have diagnosed that we were gonna be in a pandemic and that there was gonna be, you know, a virus that was gonna shake our world. But I, I always sort of internally prepare myself for bumps along the way. I mean, it's just, it's going to happen in the business that I'm in. And so there's, there's actually a kind of a, a rule that I follow the, it's, it's called the Stockdale Paradox. And it's basically like, you know, you, you, you have a problem. You can't really necessarily diagnose, you know, the exact problem or when it's gonna end or how you're gonna get out of it, but you believe that you're gonna prevail. That's kind of how I, I look at this. I don't know when we're gonna come out of this. I don't know exactly how we're gonna come out of this, but I do believe we'll get through this. And, you know, history suggests that we will, and I believe I'm in an asset class that has, you know, long-term potential to be a viable business and a sustainable business with, with real long-term, with growth, growth opportunity as well. But specifically related to, you know, people not paying rent and, you know, the government's, you know, tone or, or other people's tone on, you know, not maybe being required to pay rent. I, I think that's been a little bit overblown.

Mike Sansone [00:07:12] We've done a pretty good job of collecting most rent that we're involved in. Really where I've seen the biggest problem is really on the capital market side, you know, so for new projects where there's, there's, because of the uncertainty, there's so much fear from a lender's perspective or an investor's perspective. And, and that creates, you know, that, that creates a, a, a lack of, of opportunity for people like me to, to do new projects.

Vance Crowe [00:07:40] When you're looking at projects, are you staying in the St. Louis area, or do you look at multifamily all over the country?

Mike Sansone [00:07:47] Yeah, so I'm in, so, you know, I'm, I'm relatively young, so I've, I've not, I've been in this business for about 10 years, but I'm in two markets. I'm in St. Louis and Nashville, and intend on really kind of growing throughout the southeast. The predominant metric that I really look to is jobs, you know, where's job growth? Nashville has seen a ton of it, so, you know, and it's, it's close to home. Real estate's a local business. I mean, so you can't just follow jobs and not understand local government, local politics, you know, have relationships, have a network. So that takes a while to build St. Louis being home is a reason that, that it's, again, a local business. I'm able to develop here and compete here. Nashville, it took me a while to break through that market, finally have broken through, have a have a few projects going there, and then, you know, have an intention of taking that and, and really kind of moving towards this, towards the southeast,

Vance Crowe [00:08:42] The jobs component of what's happening is always important in an economy. But I think that there's this weird opportunity that may only come around once in a generation or once every several generations with the, with the wildness that happened with Coronavirus, right? All of a sudden, the allure of the city, like I used to live in Washington, dc I, my wife and I, when we first got married, we had a 480 square foot apartment that looked out on a brown brick wall. If I had just spent the last two months in that apartment, it doesn't matter how much I love my wife, there's no chance I want to ever let that happen again. And so I wanna move to a place where, you know, I, I can get more space, more square footage, which means I think the job markets are likely to change, or at least have an opportunity to change. What do you think of that, do you think?

Mike Sansone [00:09:29] Yeah, yeah. That

Vance Crowe [00:09:30] Happen?

Mike Sansone [00:09:30] No, I, I I, I contend to, you know, with what you're saying, I mean, I agree with what you're saying. It's, it's an interesting perspective because a little bit of that was happening before Corona hit anyway. I mean, if you look at, let's just take really urban, you know, large population coastal cities, I mean, there has been a trend where there's, there are people moving out of those cities to, to kind of spread out a little bit. You know, there's affordability reasons. You know, in certain states like California, there's state tax reasons in places like New York. There's tax reasons, but there's also, you know, people want to have a little bit of a higher quality of life as it relates to kind of being able to spread out. That doesn't necessarily mean that you just need to have a bigger home or a bigger unit. It can mean how, you know, how is that apartment building designed? I mean, does it have amenity space where you have coworking options? You know, does it have amenity space where you have a nice gym, a nice pool, you know, you've got a dog park, you've got a rooftop garden, whatever it may be. So I think that, you know, we as apartment developers can only make units so big and be able to, you know, make a return on our investment. We're never gonna, you know, have a 4,000 square foot apartment on a, you know, mass production scale, but can we have a 800 square foot apartment, or a 700 square foot apartment and have, you know, really kind of world class amenities or high class amenities that, that I think is, is a way to kind of accomplish the goal that you're talking about, where people are still able to have a high quality of life.

Vance Crowe [00:10:59] Yeah, I mean, I, I, when I think of apartment buildings, I think of the, the very cheap, like whatever I could get into when I was in DC

Mike Sansone [00:11:06] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:11:06] 'cause rent was insane. In fact, I, I'm fond of telling people the rent that I paid for that 480 square foot apartment was double what my mortgage was when I moved to St. Louis, where I then had a backyard or whatever else. And I remember going and visiting apartments that were in the same price band as what we were looking at when we were in dc And all of a sudden, you're in a palace, you're in

Mike Sansone [00:11:27] A place

Vance Crowe [00:11:28] That can have a swimming pool. It can,

Mike Sansone [00:11:29] Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:11:30] The exercise equipment would be worth more than having your own gym membership. So it's interesting to me, because I think everybody has this image of the, you know, the real, real estate moguls are the ones on the coast. They're dc New York, but it seems like the action is happening in the Midwest.

Mike Sansone [00:11:46] I mean, there's no question those larger markets are incredibly active, and they're incredibly, they're incredibly liquid in the sense that, I mean, if you own a piece of real estate in the markets that you're referring to, whether that's a DC Miami, San Francisco, New York, Boston, whatever it may be, you know, the avail, the availability of capital and liquidity of that investment is phenomenal. I mean, if you wanna sell an asset in Boston, I mean, you can sell it today. I mean, it's no problem. You own an asset in St. Louis, you know, there may be some hiccups, a lot. I mean, you're not gonna see the high highs, you're not gonna see the low lows, but it's not as liquid. I mean, you cannot, you know, you cannot realize that investment as quickly or as safely as you can in some of those other larger markets. So, I mean, I think that's kind of the, the, the big difference between those. But there are other secondary markets that have experienced, you know, very significant job growth. Yeah. I mean, Nashville, for an example is, is a place that, you know, it's a couple million people and it's, and it's growing, you know, more than 3% a year, and it's adding, you know, it's added tens of thousands of jobs. I mean, that, that directly correlates to not only new apartment development, but new industrial development and new office development. So it really, you know, kind of back to where we started, it really is, it is jobs.

Vance Crowe [00:12:59] What do you think makes Nashville the place where jobs are growing so quickly?

Mike Sansone [00:13:04] I, I mean, I've often wondered that, I mean, there's a few things that I can, that I have been able to diagnose relative to where I live. And I don't know if it's, you know, predominantly the reason for it, but it's, it's a difference. And as a developer coming in, I can tell you why it's been easier for me to develop in Nashville. One of the reasons is, is they, they do have a, a single government structure. I mean, they have, you know, Nashville Metro covers a very large region. There's not necessarily a difference between, you know, the city limits of Nashville or the, you know, the kind of the outstanding or outlying counties of Nashville. Okay? They're all governed by one government system. So for me, if I want to go in and I want to, you know, look at a piece of property or purchase a piece of property, I'm able to quickly understand what it's gonna take to rezone that property. I'm able to quickly understand to, you know, the, the land use that that property is currently entitled for. You know, there's, there's a lot of information in a central system that's easily obtainable. Okay? They, the, the state of Tennessee, I mean, it's a, it's, there's no state taxes. I mean, I think that that helps. The city of Nashville has been extremely aggressive with companies looking to relocate there, incentivizing them to do so. Some people agree with that, other people don't. But that, that has clearly brought jobs. And I think now too, a lot of this is self-fulfilling because if you look at it, their educational system, I mean, whether it's you have, you know, Belmont or Vanderbilt or, you know, name any number of colleges that are there, they now have a structure to where you have high, highly educated people that now have a place where they can stay as opposed to highly educated, highly educated people that are now looking to, you know, graduate and move to New York or Chicago or whatever it may be.

Mike Sansone [00:14:55] So now it's almost circular, and, you know, each one is fulfilling the other, and, and it's pretty robust because of that.

Vance Crowe [00:15:02] Yeah. And once, once you kick off that cycle, once you get into it, it can, yeah, it can feed on

Mike Sansone [00:15:06] Itself,

Vance Crowe [00:15:06] But you have that challenge of you could have the greatest universities, I mean, St. Louis as fantastic universities, but if you can't have the jobs that cover the sort of price that it costs to go to those universities, that's

Mike Sansone [00:15:20] Completely, yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:15:20] You gotta leave. You've gotta mind you,

Mike Sansone [00:15:22] You have to leave. Yeah. And, and, and people, I mean, it doesn't necessarily mean that people, I mean, there's again, it, there, there's probably some things that exist beyond just jobs, you know, in that, in that example. But I, I totally agree with that. I mean, if you look at the retention rates of, you know, take Washington University, you know, a phenomenal university that's located here in St. Louis, and you'd look at Vanderbilt, okay, which is a phenomenal university in Nashville, you know, two high quality, strong, reputable universities. If you look at the retention of Vanderbilt versus the retention of Wash u, it's, it's very significant. I think the retention in, for the universities in Nashville, not just specifically Vanderbilt, it's like north of 30%, which, I mean, if you're taking, you know, three out of every 10 kids that are graduating and you're keeping 'em in your local economy, and you're providing them opportunities and jobs, and, you know, that's a, that's a very educated workforce that's now kind of growing up, you know, in the environment that has been created.

Vance Crowe [00:16:18] St. Louis is an interesting, like, weird microcosm. So for people that are living out in the countryside, not anywhere near Missouri, St. Louis is actually made up of some 60 some odd municipalities, something like that.

Mike Sansone [00:16:31] It's like

Vance Crowe [00:16:31] 90, 90, 91, 92. Yeah. So that's a, that's a,

Mike Sansone [00:16:34] I'm roughly that. Yeah. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:16:36] That's a town hall, that's a police department, that's a fired district. That's all of these things that every single group. So it, you could be traveling one mile over and all the rules are different. All of the a

Mike Sansone [00:16:47] Hundred percent

Vance Crowe [00:16:48] Building codes are different. Everything has changed. And so it, when I hear you talk about a place like Nashville, I'm like, oh, that's a great idea. What we should do is just centralize it, bring it all together, make one system. But there could be a huge value in not doing that. It's just never been realized. Because you could have a little federalist system here. You could have little towns that like open up and let people

Mike Sansone [00:17:10] Do all Yeah, totally

Vance Crowe [00:17:11] What they want and try out different rules and see what works. But that's not at all how it works. It, it ends up, at least from the builder's perspective, much more complicated than that. What do you think

Mike Sansone [00:17:21] There don't get me. Right? There are municipalities within St. Louis that are pro-development, that wanna see development, that are friendly to the development community. And then there are those that want to remain as they are. And you really get a, you get a, a different response on just about every municipality that you go into. I mean, it's, so you take a, a business that's local in nature and you almost make it tribal. Like, I mean, it is, in some of these cases, it's, it is really, I mean, it's just not worth attempting to develop something in certain communities because you could spend a couple years attempting to, you know, rezone the property, you know, legally to a land use that would afford you the opportunity to develop what you think is best for that property to potentially have a group of citizens, you know, rise up against you and, you know, let's just say you're even successful in your efforts, potentially even sue you and, and deal with that. So, I, I, I mean, that's an extreme example, but in a kind of township environment, kind of town environment that a lot of these municipalities have, have become that, that's not, I mean, it's just not that uncommon. It happens.

Vance Crowe [00:18:37] The, I I'm gonna keep talking about St. Louis. 'cause it's not very often I get to talk with somebody like you, but the, I the fascinating thing about this place is we have more plant biologists per capita than anywhere else in the world. Yeah, yeah. And we have schools that are cranking out, like Wash U, cranking out biologists. People don't realize that Southern Illinois University actually cranks out computer scientists that are doing unbelievable things. And so you've got this confluence of these different schools, and there's a whole bunch of different ones. And, and the biotech world, I think that there's a ready made environment for this to grow in some huge way, whether it's because cannabis is opened and you're gonna have a whole bunch of research that goes into that, or just the more that we're able to do with plant biotech at all. But I don't know how you blow oxygen on that fire. How do you take a thing that's potential like that and make it burn?

Mike Sansone [00:19:28] Man, I wish I had a a better answer for you on how to, on how to do that. It seems like to me, you know, removing, I mean, if we go back to the comparison that I was using earlier, you know, if from, you know, you take one, you know, government structure to where things are as black and white as possible, they're not, they're not subjective. You remove that subjectivity from it. So for example, if you have a specific land use plan for St. Louis city and county, you know, that plan really should be the, the guide. It doesn't matter if a mayor likes it or a council member likes it, or an older person likes it, if that plan was, you know, voted on and approved by staff and by, you know, city council or by plan commission, whoever, you know, is involved in that, you know, that should really kind of be the governing document for development activity. And not just it, it shouldn't be a political issue because some municipality has a new, you know, city council member running against this particular development that's in, you know, that, you know, that's in their next to their friend or whatever it may be. So, you know, from my vantage point in order to, you know, try to try to grow that side of things, it's, you know, I come from a pro-development perspective and, you know, pro-development means, you know, less, less government regulation. So that's how I'd look at it. But it, that's, that's probably a more complicated answer than, than, than just what you asked.

Vance Crowe [00:20:57] So 10 years ago, you said you've been in the business for about 10 years?

Mike Sansone [00:21:01] Yeah, I've been in the, yeah, I've been in the multi-family side of it for about 10 years. I've been in the real estate business for about 13 or so. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:21:07] What was the first real rude awakening that you got about like, I thought business was gonna be this one way, but actually it's this other way?

Mike Sansone [00:21:16] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I definitely, so I, I mean, I grew up in the, in the real estate business. I mean, my grandfather was a developer, my father was a developer. My uncles are developers. And it's just, I mean, I've been around it my entire life. And there were things that I learned about it and knew about it that I didn't really, that I didn't realize I, I even knew, or it was, it was almost second nature. I mean, it was just through pure osmosis. I mean, just being around the people in my family, it, but I always thought it was sexier than it, what it would, than what it was. I mean, I always did. 'cause like, you know, my dad would go to work in a nice suit and he'd look good and, you know, I just kind of thought, you know, that's kind of what I wanted to be. Like, my grandpa was a in, you know, in my eyes, a a larger than life figure. I mean, he was just, he was so stoic. He was incredibly impressive. He was, you know, just the perfect gentleman. And I, that's what I, that's what I saw and that's what I thought, you know, business was. Well, there's a lot of details and there's a lot of stuff you gotta, you gotta do. Well, that isn't fun, that isn't sexy. Whether that's, you know, run in numbers on a particular development opportunity, whether that's, you know, having to get in your car at, you know, four o'clock in the morning because of potential opportunity shows up and you need to get to a development site by, you know, eight 30 or nine the next day before you miss out on the opportunity. Whether it's, you know, sitting down with like a neighborhood group to kinda lobby them for a particular development that you're involved with, and having conversations that aren't necessarily rational, but trying to be as diplomatic as possible.

Vance Crowe [00:22:48] Oh, tell me more about that. What do you mean?

Mike Sansone [00:22:51] Well, I mean, you can, so imagine, you know, where you live and somebody like me comes along and they wanna build an apartment building, and you're gonna say, Hey, you know that, that's great. You know, I, that, that, that's good. That'll be good. They'll, they'll be, you know, that's, that's good for the area. There's a need for it. It'll, you know,

Vance Crowe [00:23:10] More restaurant will

Mike Sansone [00:23:10] Get created, more people around, it'll increase the tax base. You know, the schools will see better funding, whatever, whatever your, your reasoning is for it. You know, you may take that perspective. You also may take the perspective, like, this would be horrible for our area. You know, this, I, we don't wanna bring that many people into this area. You could overcrowd the schools, whatever the, whatever the rationale is, you could, you, you hear both sides of it. And in certain instances, it really doesn't matter what you say. Certain people's minds are completely made up. I mean, they, it just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if, you know, you're able to prove to them that the value of their home is going to be increased. I mean, if you're able to, you know, rationally prove to them that that can happen. If their argument before you sat down in that room was, you're gonna devalue my home, oftentimes they take that position no matter what. And so it's, it's, you know, being respectful, showing that opinions do matter, you know, in a process like this and letting people feel that they're heard. And while at the same time, understanding you're not necessarily going to convince certain, it's, it's the ones on the fringe that you're really working to convince to, to help lobby your project forward.

Vance Crowe [00:24:23] Yeah. And it's gotta be such a weird position to be walking into a place saying, Hey, I've done all this work. I believe I can make money and create value. And then to have people deeply doubt your, your intentions or deeply doubt where where you're go, like, I think a lot of people go most of their lives where the only time they have those kind of run-ins are with their family members or maybe with a coworker. But when you're in a position where you're actually arguing with the public writ large, it's a, it's a, it's a really uncomfortable feeling to be so disliked for something that you're trying to put into the world.

Mike Sansone [00:24:56] Yeah, it is. It is. It is. I mean, you definitely can't, I mean, you can't argue 'cause you can't win by arguing. There's no question about that. But it is, it is a strange feeling because I mean, I, you know, I'm a, I'm a nice guy. I mean, I got, I have a nice family. I mean, I care about my community and, you know, I, I try to live life the right way and, and all those things. And you know, sometimes you go into these places and I'm just trying to make a living and people, I mean, almost, you know, they think your intentions are completely different than what you're communicating, you know, or they're very suspicious of you, or it's, you know, what, what, what they're, you know, what this person is saying is not what they're going to do. And it's, and that's a tricky, because it's like, I've never, you know, mis I don't mislead people, you know, I don't lie. I don't, you know, cheat. It's, and it's, and, but they don't, they don't know me. And so I have to kind of reconvince that re reconvince folks oftentimes when I, when I want to get a project forward that I'm not, I'm not evil.

Vance Crowe [00:25:57] Yeah. It's so hard for anybody communicating anything to remember I'm the stranger, right? Yeah. Like, I am the person that everybody that looks at me right now, they see me as in, in Swahili, they use the word Jenny, which just means like, person that doesn't belong here, some, some kind of stranger here. Sure, sure. And if you're referred to as Jenny, nothing about that says, trust this person more than

Mike Sansone [00:26:22] Yeah, yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:26:23] Than a perfect stranger. But it's hard to remember like, okay, I'm coming into a new place, even though I was running at a hundred miles an hour at my last job. Now I've gotta come in here and start over with square one. Yeah,

Mike Sansone [00:26:35] Yeah, for sure.

Vance Crowe [00:26:35] I'm not, not trying to get ahead of myself, not rush any of it.

Mike Sansone [00:26:37] Yeah, absolutely. And there, I mean, don't get me wrong, there's a lot, there's a lot of people though too that, that appreciate people coming into their community and attempting something that is, that is going to enhance their community. Okay. So there are, there, you know, for, as for folks that are skeptical of it or, you know, are are suspicious of it, there are, there are also those that are welcoming and, you know, really wanna help and really wanna see, you know, really want to, you know, see your vision, you know, come to reality. And in certain times, you know, our vision is incorrect. And so, you know, listening to the community and, and understanding, you know, their desires, I mean, it is still a good, it really is still a good process to go through,

Vance Crowe [00:27:21] Through, you were talking about the, you know, waking up at 4:00 AM to go leverage on an opportunity. It really strikes me as there's a saying that our, our mutual friend Travis Liebig from St. Louis Bank always talks about, which is, which is basically saying, you, you are still waiting at the starting line because you never heard that the gun went off. And most people think like, well, I'm waiting for the opportunity to come my way. I'm waiting for my chance to do something. Not realizing that chances are flying by you all the time. There's just some people that say, well, if I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna have to get up at 3:00 AM to get down to Nashville in time. A lot of people hear that and they just think, well, I can't do that. Yeah. And instead the people that do, it's, was that something that's naturally inborn in you? Did your father teach you that? What, how did that come about that you were able to spot the opportunities so you could get off the starting line?

Mike Sansone [00:28:12] Yeah, that, I mean, that was, that was ingrained early for sure. Again, you know, come from a family of entrepreneurs. And so I, at some point always did wanna be in business for myself. And I recognize that if you're going to be in business for yourself, it, it's, it truly is up to you. I mean it, in, in every sense, it's up to you. You have to be a self motivator. So, you know, the, there's, you know, there's no like, you know, paid time off, like days that you submit to the HR department or anything. I mean, there's just none of that that exists. So, I mean, if you, if you want to be successful and you wanna be fulfilled, I mean, that's a lot of it for me too, is that, you know, I wanna feel like I'm realizing my potential. And so the only way to do that is to put forth the effort to feel like I'm, you know, outworking or outthinking or outmaneuvering, you know, those that I compete with or, you know, some of my peers or whatever it may be. But, you know, I would say though that by far the most profound influence to start my own business and, you know, to, you know, reach for a, a successful life and a successful enterprise was, was my grandpa. Like, not even a, a, a question. I mean, you know, he was someone that, you know, I was, I mean, I was born into a family that had had some success. My grandpa, you know, was born into a, a, a family of immigrants, you know, that couldn't speak English and had no money and had no opportunities.

Mike Sansone [00:29:45] I mean, none to where like, I won the genetic lottery. He did not. And he went out and, you know, basically through sheer determination and willpower and grit, you know, accomplished all that he did. And, you know, I would, I would, you know, if I, if I didn't go attempt to do the same thing, you know, or try to do the same thing, I mean, I, that would be, that would be a disappointment to, to him and his legacy and all that he stood for and taught us. So it's important to me that I live my life that way.

Vance Crowe [00:30:14] If you're a person that has any sort of competition in you, and, and it's not even always competition. It's, I think for me, it's like a level of freedom, right? Totally. I, I love the ability to be like, Hey, I thought I was gonna do this thing today, but now I realize there's something more important over here. And the act of going into business for myself allowed me to say, I am going to live every day what I believe totally. Do I believe that hard work is gonna take me further down the road today? Or do I believe it's better just to hang around and do nothing? And thank God that during coronavirus, I is already out on my own. I think a lot of people could look at it and be like, well, that's, you know, scary. You don't, you know, you're not making any money. Who knows what's going on. But like, if you're in your, if you are running your own company, you now can pivot that business to be whatever you want. Totally. You don't have to go to somebody and be like, would it be all right if I changed this up?

Mike Sansone [00:31:05] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you said the word freedom and that, I would say that's pro, I mean, that's probably number one on the list of why being entrepreneur is so gratifying. I mean, if you, like, if you told me that I could go make, you know, double the money that I'm making right now, but I'd, I have to kind of go work in a bureaucratic organization, or I'd have to go work in a specific structure that I don't necessarily control, I wouldn't do it. I mean, there's just no way. I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't be able to, I enjoy my life the way that I enjoy it. I wouldn't be able to be as stimulated as I can be. I wouldn't, you know, I mean, there's so many things I think about, you know, when you are, you know, ultimately responsible for the success of an organization, you know, or your wellbeing or your family's wellbeing, you're able to think strateg strategically. You're able to think, you know, long term, you're able to really think deeply about, you know, how you wanna live, and you know what you want to do and how you want to do it. Where if you're in a specific structure, which is fine, it's just not for me. You, I, I think you, you, you, you don't have to do that, and you don't necess, and it's not necessarily welcomed to do that. So for me, it just, it wouldn't, it wouldn't work at all.

Vance Crowe [00:32:14] So when you think about what it took to develop your skills to be able to move just from St. Louis into going into Nashville and down to the southern areas, it had to be mindset or thinking that changed along the way. What do you think prepared you to go from being like, I'm gonna be a developer here and get this down to expansion?

Mike Sansone [00:32:33] Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, it's, you know, in our business, track record really matters. And so it's really hard to do your first deal because everyone that you come in contact with says, well, what's your track record? Well, shit, I don't have a track record. I mean, I, this is my first deal. So you, but what, you know, you not, you knock hard enough and you knock long enough. Eventually you kind of break through and you do that first deal. Well, then the second deal, you're able to look, you know, you're able to say, well, hey, you know, whether it's a seller of a property or whether it's a banker, whether it's an investor that wants to invest in your deal, you can say, well, I did this last one and it was successful, so, you know, come along with me here and do this one until you kind of start to do 3, 4, 5, 6 of 'em. And then once I was able to do that, the next, you know, rung on the ladder was, let's go out of market and do that. And so now I'm able to, you know, I was able, it took me a while to break into another market to do that and be credible, but it was kind of the same philosophy and the same mindset. I just kind of, I kept pushing, I kept pushing, I kept pushing. And then I finally, I, I had an opening and I, and I took it. That's my intention too, to continue to move into the, into the southeast as well. But I also recognize that I, I ha I do, I do have to be thoughtful in how my, my business grows. You know, pace does ultimately win the, win the race here. You know, I don't, I don't wanna rush it. I don't wanna overexpand, I don't wanna attempt to over expand, because that'd be, that's a very costly mistake because, you know, for every transaction that I work on, it's, it's capital intensive.

Mike Sansone [00:34:05] You know, whether that's a, you know, a travel budget or whether that's architectural drawings or whether that's a lawyers or consultants or, you know, you know, certain things that are third party reports that are required to put a property under contract. It's all very costly. So I have to be, I have to be cautious. But ultimately it's, it's the mindset that someone else has done this before. Are they really any smarter or any better than me? I don't know. So let's go ahead and, you know, try to do it too.

Vance Crowe [00:34:36] Yeah. I think I'm the exact same way. Yeah. It is not that I think that I am particularly intelligent. I think I have seen people that are not particularly intelligent, succeed, and a hundred, and I'd rather emulate what they did as opposed to whatever innate intelligence they had. But that takes you a while to learn. 'cause when you're a kid, you think, oh, I just wanna be the smartest person. Yeah. Not, I wanna be the most observant that figures things out.

Mike Sansone [00:35:01] Yeah, yeah. No, I, I, I totally, I know, I know. I remember kind of specifically, I, when I graduated college, I had moved to Cleveland, Ohio, and I worked for a, a large public company that was headquartered there called Developers Diversified Realty. And it was a real estate investment trust, and they primarily owned power center shopping centers across the, across the country. And in, and, and, you know, other parts of the world too, like Brazil, Russia, there were some other countries they were involved in. But I had worked there for almost four years, you know, was living in a city that I, that wasn't, that wasn't going to be home. And I had turned 27 years old, and I remember like, at like, like it was yesterday at that age, I was like, I am done just training and trying to just gain knowledge to then be ready to potentially take advantage of an opportunity. It's like, I, there, I'm never gonna know everything, so now's the time to go try and make something happen. And that, and so it was at that point that I realized there's not like a, an end when you like, okay, I've now learned this, so therefore I can go do that. You know, you kind of have to start doing it to be able to, you know, ultimately realize it.

Vance Crowe [00:36:14] And nothing about the way that most children are educated prepares you for that. At least in the formal education system, the system is sit down, be quiet, we will tell you what you need to know, and then your job is to retain the questions that we are going to ask you on the test. And then if you get past that, we're gonna give you an award and that means you're ready. But it turns out it doesn't matter if you're valedictorian. Yeah. Because

Mike Sansone [00:36:36] You

Vance Crowe [00:36:36] Still gotta go do something out in the real

Mike Sansone [00:36:38] World. For sure, for sure. But don't you think like, I mean, so much of that though is, is at home, I mean, like, you know, having grit, I mean, like that's, they're not teaching you about grit or resiliency or anything like that in school, you know? So

Vance Crowe [00:36:50] I think, I think this, the, the, you're totally right. And one of the biggest things is when you push kids to go after grades, what you end up doing is telling them that failure is going to mess you up, right? Yeah. If you're

Mike Sansone [00:37:01] Going

Vance Crowe [00:37:01] For valedictorian and you miss that one class, all is lost. Whereas if you're like, Hey, better to fall down and get back up. I think it's the opposite lesson of what you wanna be teaching kids.

Mike Sansone [00:37:11] See, I think for me, I, I, I grew up in an environment where I had such supportive parents that my only validation was not school. I mean, I wasn't a great student and, but I was, I was validated as, you know, by my parents as, you know, being a good brother to my little sisters or older brother, or being a good friend of my friends or being, you know, responsible around the, whatever it was. I mean, I had validation from, from them and realized that, you know, that there were things that kind of, I got, you know, I, I'm kind of thinking out loud as I'm, as I'm talking to you about this, that

Vance Crowe [00:37:43] That's good. That means we're at the edge of chaos when you're,

Mike Sansone [00:37:45] When you're

Vance Crowe [00:37:46] Thinking you're saying it for the first time.

Mike Sansone [00:37:48] Yeah. And when you think about, I mean, that's probably, you know, I guess why I was able to learn, you know, some of those skills and, and, and that mindset to that I've learned to ultimately kind of propel me into business on my own and, and do things, you know, that are outside of just an organizational structure.

Vance Crowe [00:38:07] When I think about leaving the, the organizational structure that you set up in, and you're just an employee, the, the challenge is, unless you're in a sales role that's facing outward, if you're an internal person, everything flows in the information hierarchy, right? There's one person that has a group of people that then they cascade information down. But one of the things that I noticed with Coronavirus is those information cascades that are in those standardized networks, like a business, they all got disjointed, right? Yeah. So if you were used to being the type of person that got a bunch of information at the water cooler, but you didn't know how to text appropriately,

Mike Sansone [00:38:45] All

Vance Crowe [00:38:46] Of a sudden you are sheared off of all of that information. Do you think this lasts, do you think the shift that we did to have information cascades not be hierarchical, but be through your network of who you text message and email and do those things, do you think it

Mike Sansone [00:39:00] Stays

Vance Crowe [00:39:00] The same? Yeah, I,

Mike Sansone [00:39:02] No, I think that they were cha I think that was changing anyway. And I think that this probably expedites that change. Something that came to mind is, I have a friend who has developed an app and, and developed it quite some time ago, and it's been very successful. It's called Bonfire. And it's really, and it's an, it's an employee engagement tool, and it, it, it really was, I mean, it was initially meant for really sort of large businesses. You know what, if you're a, you know, Marriott hotels and you've got hotels all over the world, and you've got people from housekeeping staff all the way to, you know, a regional manager or whatever it may be, there has to be a, a way to sort of communicate and understand, you know, what are ground level people saying, what are, you know, mid-level people saying, and then maybe what are some of the executive level people saying? And really sort of take that information and everybody and make sure everybody's kind of cohesive. So I think that was, that was happening, you know, anyway. But I think that that's going to, I, I think organizations are probably be gonna become a little flatter, you know? And I think that that chain of communication is not gonna be as, you know, it's not gonna necessarily like waterfall down as you were kind of explaining it. I think that it's gonna be, I think it's gonna be quicker. I think it's gonna be more direct. And I think that it's gonna be, you know, less, there's not gonna be a lot of telephone involved, you know, I think it's gonna be more direct, more honest and more accurate. So how have, have

Vance Crowe [00:40:23] You adapted to this new video conferencing? How are you liking this? Like, it seems like you've, you've adapted Well,

Mike Sansone [00:40:30] It, it took a little while. I mean, I, I, we did not have a subscription to Zoom when this all broke out, had to get a subscription. But it's, I mean, for me, specifically related to some of the development activity I have going on in, in the Nashville market, it has been really beneficial because other things that would have required me to travel there, there's no expectation now for me to travel. So, you know, if I were to meet with a, a, a, a planner at the Nashville, you know, city offices, they, it was always meet in person. I mean, that's how it always was. And now, I mean, they're not even allowed to be in the, in their offices. So now it's, you can only meet by Zoom or conference call. And so, you know, in that way it's been, it's been beneficial. But for me, I have a small, you know, there's, we have 10 employees or so, so it hasn't been that, that disruptive, but it's been, it's been a useful tool and I think that it's a part of it is gonna stick around for quite a while. I really do.

Vance Crowe [00:41:27] Well, it's shocking to me when you get on a meeting and you see that people, they haven't fully adjusted to the fact that this telepresence is actually how people see you. It is actually how they will remember you. And so you look at like, you know, a person that would spend thousands of dollars on a wardrobe, you know, having shiny shoes in a nice suit, but they get on these calls and it looks like their phone is in a garbage can and they're looking down in a hole on you and like

Mike Sansone [00:41:54] Yeah. All you see is their forehead. Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:41:56] Yeah, yeah. And like, it's so, so you can tell that people haven't adjusted yet, but I think it's because we went through such a, normally telepresence would've been young people are doing it now, they're doing it in college. Now we're doing a but we went from like zero to 60.

Mike Sansone [00:42:10] Yeah. And

Vance Crowe [00:42:11] It's,

Mike Sansone [00:42:11] It's

Vance Crowe [00:42:11] Amazing to me who's adapted and who hasn't and who's been upgrading and who's just been like,

Mike Sansone [00:42:16] I know, I didn't

Vance Crowe [00:42:16] Know there was anything I could change.

Mike Sansone [00:42:18] I know, I know there is, there is certainly a lot of that going on. And there's, and don't get me wrong, there's some, you know, people in my industry that have not taken to this, you know, new way of, of doing business. And, and it'll be interesting to see, like, does it ha does it really have a material impact on 'em or not? I don't know. I mean, it, it could, it may not, but it's, it's certainly, you know, I I I welcome it. I think it's a thing of the future.

Vance Crowe [00:42:43] So you are, if, if you, if somebody were living in St. Louis and they knew Mike Sanso, you have a reputation for being one of the, the nicest, most congenial people. I, I could meet somebody random on the street, and if I brought up your name, it would be like, oh my gosh, he's so nice. Development is a, you know, knockdown run around, fight, fight, fight. Kind of, at least that's my impression of it. How do you bridge these two things between the, the, the personality that people know you as and this world that you live in?

Mike Sansone [00:43:14] I don't know if everybody would say that about me, but I do appreciate

Vance Crowe [00:43:16] Everybody I've

Mike Sansone [00:43:17] Ever met. I appreciate, I do appreciate. No, I appreciate that. Thank you. I think, you know, for me, you know, I've, I really kind of, I look at the bus again, at the age that I am at, I look at my business really from a long-term perspective. And it does not behoove me to, you know, treat people improperly to win a deal. You know, because that one deal may cost me five down the road. And so I also, I think kind of come from the, the, the perspective that I, I really try to have an abundance mentality in the sense that if this deal doesn't work out, there will be others. Whereas if I had a scarcity mindset, I would really look at this and say, if this deal doesn't work out, I'm screwed. And so therefore I've gotta do whatever I gotta do to win this deal. And there's, there are people that are in my industry that have that mindset, and, and I don't. And so I guess that's probably the best answer to that question. But there's still, don't get me wrong, there's, there's a lot of people that are in the real estate business that are really good solid people that are honest and easy to work with and, and, and understand that, you know, the long that, the long understand, the long-term nature and the long-term relationships of it,

Vance Crowe [00:44:34] Yeah, the abundance mentality is a tough one because you can wrap yourself around in that of like, Hey, things are gonna work out. They're all gonna be fine. But that then can lull you into laying down in the couch and feeling nice and warm and comfortable instead of being like, oh man, I gotta keep going. I gotta, this didn't work out. I got, so what's the balance between the crazed, I gotta get business done, I got 10 people in a family relying on me. And the abundance mentality.

Mike Sansone [00:45:01] Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that there's, you can also have that mentality be very tested as well when you've, you know, maybe lost out on a few deals and you're like, oh shit, when's the next one coming? You know, you're saying, oh, don't worry. There's, you know, be, be positive. You know, there's plenty of opportunity out there. I think, like for me, what I've tried to do is I've, I've had that concern multiple times throughout my career, is I, I look back and I now have enough of a track record and enough time under my belt to really look at history and look to see kind of how it played out and rely on that and say, there's a, it, I will, it will probably look like that in the future too. So remain calm, don't, don't get concerned. But you gotta, you gotta keep your foot on the gas. 'cause that can happen. I mean, that, that can absolutely happen. There's a guy, you should interview him, actually, there's a guy named Ja, Dr. Jason Sk here in St. Louis, and he's a performance coach. He was, he did a lot of the sports performance work for the Cardinals, like when they won in 2011. I mean, he was involved with that team. He works with a lot of professional athletes. But I mean, he is a, I mean, he is a mindset coach. And you know, one of the things that, you know, that he taught me was that when things are going well, that, that is the easiest time in the world to take your foot off the gas and say, God, everything's going great. You know what, this is, this is awesome. And for me specifically, like if I do a project, you know, that's, that's, I, I got about three years of, you know, where I'm making, where I'm making money.

Mike Sansone [00:46:38] So it's really easy to let off, you know, it's not like I gotta like, you know, get back in the game in 30 days. But, you know, from from his perspective, you know, the second, and I've done this before, you know, the second you let off the gas like that, you know, you miss an opportunity, you miss another opportunity. And it, it takes, it's hard to, to climb out of that. So I try to be intentional about, you know, when things are going well, enjoy it. But, but, but you push even a little bit further.

Vance Crowe [00:47:07] Yeah. I mean, I, I always have this constant fear, you know, so much of what I do is just creative, right? It's coming up with a new idea. And I think that's probably development too, right? It's, it's some combination between physical work and capital, but creativity,

Mike Sansone [00:47:20] Yeah. Yours is more creative for sure. But yes,

Vance Crowe [00:47:23] But I always imagine, like, that was my last good idea, right? Because you

Mike Sansone [00:47:28] Can't

Vance Crowe [00:47:29] See beyond the creativity that you're having today. Very. So you can't be like, I'm gonna be confronted with a new problem and I will again be creative. And I would say if there was one thing that made me lose sleep since I was probably 20 years old, that's when I'm like, oh God, what if I don't have another creative idea ever again?

Mike Sansone [00:47:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. It's, it's the same thing for a project, the exact same thing. I mean, I know that exact feeling, but then you've, but you've come up with a lot of creative ideas, so you can now look back and say, I did it. Then I had that concern, then I have this concern now, and it'll, it, you know, there's enough of a track record to where this will probably work out.

Vance Crowe [00:48:08] So you are looking at the world and you're trying to imagine not the way that it will return to, but the way that it will be, the, the, the changes that are gonna be dramatic enough to have an impact on how you do business and how business gets done in not just six months, but three years, five years.

Mike Sansone [00:48:26] Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:48:26] What's the, what's the heterodox view you have? What's the change about the world that you think is gonna happen that most people are like, nah, that's, nah, that's either too far out there, or not far enough or,

Mike Sansone [00:48:37] Yeah, I don't know if I ha, I don't know if I have like a, a completely contrarian perspective then the masses. But I do, I try to remove myself from today's environment and look at you know, what does 2023 look like? What does 2024 look like? Because for me, if you, for example, if you take a project that maybe I started building a year ago, or two years ago when I started building that project, and when I expected to deliver that project in July of 2020, and, you know, rent that to people that were looking to rent an apartment, if you would've told me that I was going to be delivering that project into a global pandemic, and there's people that are quarantined, that are quarantined, that are not leaving their homes, you know, the economy is seeing, you know, 20, 30% unemployment, you know, there's additional government stimulus. I mean, I would never obviously do that transaction. I mean, I would never have done that. I would've never done that. So for me, I also, so now take that to the, take that to the complete other side of the example. Do a 180 and say, okay, here we are, global pandemic, high unemployment, very uncertain times, you know, protest on the street. You know, you know, we're talking about inequality issues, racial issues. It's, it's a very, very uncertain time. I also cannot assume that that's going to be the case in 2023 or 2024 when my next projects will be delivered.

Mike Sansone [00:50:09] Okay. So I kind of have to try, I try, I have to sort of remove myself, you know, from that, from those bias. But I do think, you know, specifically related to the business that I'm in, I really do think that having, this kind of goes back to where we started having an apartment or a place to live that affords you the opportunity to have really kind of a holistic life there is, is critically important. You know? So whether that's having, you know, the appropriate amenities for coworking, you know, people are probably going to be working remotely more frequently. I mean, that, that's already been announced. And I, and I do think that some of that will revert back to kind of the, the way it always was. But I think that there is a contingent of industries that will remain, that will remain working remotely. I, I, I absolutely believe that it's been too effective and efficient. And, and so therefore for us, you know, when we develop a place where people are going to live, you know, and as of right now, you know, living in a home or living in an apartment is not being disrupted by the internet. You know, working is being disrupted by the internet. You know, shopping is being disrupted by the internet. You know, certain certain experiences are being disrupted by the internet, but you know, like where you live is, is not been heavily disrupted by the internet. How you find where you live has been dis disrupt, been disrupted by the internet. But, you know, so for us it's, you know, how do I, you know, provide a place where someone can work there, live there, be happy there, and wanna stay there.

Mike Sansone [00:51:39] And it's, and it's, you know, and, and you do that through not just the physical unit that they live in, but the, you know, the amenities that you're offering as well.

Vance Crowe [00:51:49] I have a good friend named Randall Comfort that is an architect, and he does architecture work a a lot of times for executives that are also have some kind of art, you know, fascination that okay, typically he finds people that like they are fascinated by something and they're also, you know, doing well enough to be able to have architecture services. And he said the big change that's happened to him is everybody wants a space for telepresence, or whatever you wanna call it, video conferencing in their house. They want their office to be reconstructed. They wanna think about how does it sound? And you think about like, there's no way three years ago you could have predicted that, but, but now you would say there's no way, three years from now is almost certain that there's gonna be more of a demand for that sort of building and thinking and, and what absolute's brilliant.

Mike Sansone [00:52:34] Yeah. Yeah. No, you're, you're exactly right. And like, some of the, and not to say that that's obvious, but that that's, you know, that you can easily understand what you're just saying right there. I'm trying to figure out, you know, what are some of the things that are, that's not intuitive. You know, what are some of the items that people are gonna really need that are gonna really want, that we don't know we want or need yet, specifically in my area of concentration in the, you know, in the multifamily business, you know, so it's, it's easy to understand and it's easy to design a building to say, we need to have some coworking space. 'cause people are gonna be working remotely, you know, more frequently. Okay. But now you take that one step further and it's like, okay, but we also have to have, you know, maybe a little like, you know, nook in their individual apartment unit that has the, that has the ability to have, you know, strong that ha that that where someone can take a zoom call, you know, and have good sound quality and have soundproofing

Vance Crowe [00:53:30] Sounding soundproofing. Soundproofing,

Mike Sansone [00:53:31] Yeah. And so all that, you know, so it's, it's those kinds of things that I, that I, that I need to think through a little bit more too, because it is certainly a part, it is going to be a part of our future. Well,

Vance Crowe [00:53:39] This is a fun game. 'cause as you're talking about that, I think about like, what were some of the most valuable things, and one of the most valuable things to have at my house right now that I would've radically underestimated before was an outdoor place to easily work out. Because you think about like spring and summer, I, I, if I'm gonna have people over to workout with, I can't go to the gym. If I'm gonna have anybody work out, we're gonna do it outside. How do you set this up so that you can do this even if you're in a global pandemic? And that was one of the most valuable things that I had at my house, was the ability to work out outside.

Mike Sansone [00:54:12] Yeah, yeah, for sure. I would've got, if I would've had a home office that was actually dislocated from my home, you know, where, 'cause like I have a, I have a detached garage and I have a space above my garage that I'm currently building out for an office. Like, when that is done, that's gonna be really useful. 'cause I have four little kids and they don't care if I'm in my home office in my house. I mean, they don't respect those boundaries. They don't, they don't, they don't, they don't recognize what I'm, what I'm trying to do or how distracting it is.

Vance Crowe [00:54:42] So you stay incredibly fit. You are like, you know, shiny and sharp and look like you're in shape. What do you do to be both a professional, have four kids and, and stay on top of this

Mike Sansone [00:54:55] Man? Well, thank you. That's a nice compliment. I, well, my wife's into work. My wife's pretty into fitness, so it's probably a, you know, a family value that we, we both follow, but I think is really led by her. And I try to work out anywhere between, you know, three, four days a week. And I, I'm not trying to, you know, win any competitions or anything like that, but I am trying to have, you know, basic shape and basic fit and a basic fitness level because I think it's important for me, you know, I like the, I want my kids to look at me as, you know, a strong energetic father. My grandfather was that way, my father was that way. So, you know, again, a a good example, you know, having four little kids that are 6, 4, 2 and almost one is, you know, it is, it's certainly, I mean, it is really busy and it's chaotic, especially during this quarantine, my gosh. I mean, I wouldn't wish that upon anybody. It's been a little tough. But we, you know, try and keep 'em active as much as possible. I try to be intentional with them. You know, like for example, when I get home from work, I am generally tired and I don't really feel like playing with my kids all that much. But I try to set aside, you know, 15, 20 minutes. And if you just do that every, you know, every night for kind of a long period of time, that that adds up into being a, a meaningful relationship as a father to my daughters and my sons. And then, you know, from a hobby perspective, I, I love to play golf, so that gets me outside. And I'm able to do that, not as, not as often as I'd like, but I, I enjoy it.

Vance Crowe [00:56:31] Well, one of my favorite questions to ask is I, I picked up during coronavirus because everything was moving so quickly, and then I was kind of under the impression that this was not a great question because things were slowing down. But I, my intern this morning was like, Hey man, you gotta keep asking this question because it's, it's so, things are changing so rapidly. So the question is, what do you think the world will look like in two weeks? And I put, I poit that because, you know, two weeks ago when I was asking people this, nobody said, we're gonna have riots and protesting and, and racial inequality is gonna be one of the highest things that people are talking about. So what's your, your prediction on two weeks from now?

Mike Sansone [00:57:13] I really have to answer that. Yeah. Because I have no idea. All right. My prediction on two weeks from now, you know, what, is there gonna be more police departments defunded, you know, I guess that's one that I could, I could take.

Vance Crowe [00:57:28] My friend has a very interesting analysis of those defunding of the, the police departments. She, she started throwing up budgets for some of the cities that were doing that. And she was saying, you know, there's a correlation between cities that were already running in the red and had a bunch of trouble funding their police, and now who are saying it'd be a great idea to defund the police to defund

Mike Sansone [00:57:49] The police. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:57:50] I, I mean, and I don't know how legit or how right, or how accurate or thing is, but I do know there are a lot of cities that were running into the red and no

Mike Sansone [00:57:58] Question

Vance Crowe [00:57:58] It would never be a chance to be able to, to, you know, maneuver those contracts under ordinary circumstances.

Mike Sansone [00:58:04] Yeah, that's good. That's gonna get very political though, and I think that's gonna change quite a few different times before there's, before that's ev whatever decision is made is ever on solid footing. And there's gonna have to be some sort of, I think, national response to what that's going to look like as well. Because, I mean, it's one thing for a small municipality to defund a police department. It's another thing for a major city to defund a police department and not refund it. That's a, that, you know, assume that it doesn't get refunded or refunded at the level that it was currently that it was previously funded at. That's that, I, I, I think some of what we're seeing right now, you know, there's, it could be, there could be some, some politics in play right now. And so it's just, it's just hard to detect, it's hard to detect what that's gonna look like in the future. I have no idea. I don't try to predict what the future's gonna hold at all. I try to kind of understand where I am currently, you know, I take the information. I mean, really if I look at my business, I try and take the information that's available to me today, and I try to make the best decisions based upon that information, you know, because if I start trying to analyze what the future may hold, or if I start trying to predict what the future may hold, again, back to my example of what I have known, what we're in now, I mean, had I thought that I wouldn't have done the, a pro, you know, a certain project that's gonna deliver, but I'm still glad I did the project, so,

Vance Crowe [00:59:21] So yeah, now it's gonna deliver, it's gonna be done. You have,

Mike Sansone [00:59:23] That's, yeah, and it'll be fine. It'll be fine. It'll be fine and it'll be fine. Yeah. It'll be, I mean, it won't be as successful, you know, as I would've liked for it to be, but it'll be successful. It'll just take a little bit more time to get there.

Vance Crowe [00:59:33] And if, if you were talking to a young person that says they wanna get into real estate, but they've moved into a new city, they don't know anybody, they don't know anything, what is the first step of somebody that wants to move into this realm?

Mike Sansone [00:59:45] Yeah. Well, I would definitely work for a na a, a company with, you know, some sort of national scale. I would work for a large organization. There's no question. You just get exposed to a lot of people. You get exposed to a lot of information, you get exposed to a lot of details and have resources that if you were to just go work for, for me, for example, I wouldn't be able to, I wouldn't be able to provide a young person, you know, the, the, the same amount of information or give them the same headstart that a larger corporation would be able to give. There's also, you know, in certainly larger cities, I mean, there's real estate groups and things like that. There's Facebook forums, there's LinkedIn forums. I mean, there's all sorts of ways to get connected to people. And I would just start, I would just use, I would use those three things. And you, it's amazing what you can, what you can do in a, you know, a one or a two year period as a young person, the people that you can meet. And if you show eagerness and hunger and the ability and willing to work, I mean, you know, that's a really attractive quality for, for people that are seasoned in our business.

Vance Crowe [01:00:42] Yeah. I think that the most underrated thing that a, that a young person can do is write a letter to somebody and say, this is why I am writing you. This is what I'm willing to contribute and this is why I'm willing to contribute it, because I think I can learn or get these things. Yeah, man, that letter take, don't think about it if you take you everywhere. Yeah, I did. I got it. And I got an intern, right? Like,

Mike Sansone [01:01:03] He

Vance Crowe [01:01:03] Wrote me that email and I was like, man, whatever you want, I'm willing to help you because you were willing to put that out there. Yeah.

Mike Sansone [01:01:09] But, but what you just said though, too, letter. I mean, if you got a handwritten letter from somebody though, and, and they like, I mean, they physically took the time to, you know, write on a piece of paper and put that in the mail, get a stamp. I mean, that's not, it's not as easy as it once was. That, that, that means a lot too. That's very personal.

Vance Crowe [01:01:25] Yeah. I think handwritten letters are, are deeply important. And I often think of it as like, by putting this ink down, I am, the ink is the equivalent of my soul going on there. It's just a little bit of who I am being pushed into that. Yeah. And there's something different about what you write when you have a pen in your hands Totally. Than what you type. It's, it's different.

Mike Sansone [01:01:44] Yeah. Yeah. Well, it takes longer, it takes more focus and it, yeah, it almost takes like a bigger commitment too. I mean, you almost, you have to like sit down and focus. I mean, yeah, I could rattle off an email pretty quick, but to physically write a letter, it does take a little bit more time and thought.

Vance Crowe [01:01:58] Do you keep a journal?

Mike Sansone [01:02:00] I, I have in the past, but I, I'm, I'm not consistent enough with it to where no, I don't, I don't, I don't do a, rather,

Vance Crowe [01:02:07] It is the best habit. It's better than running, it's better than I've wanted to The best happy.

Mike Sansone [01:02:12] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:02:13] Like if you, if you're just like, Hey, I don't drink my first sip of coffee unless I've written two sentences down, all of a sudden you'll start getting two sentences down.

Mike Sansone [01:02:20] Yeah, yeah. And is that what you do? Oh

Vance Crowe [01:02:22] Yeah. First

Mike Sansone [01:02:23] Thing in the

Vance Crowe [01:02:23] Morning. Okay. As much as I possibly can. There's a rare circumstance where I don't, and, and I, I often talk about it being like letters from my past self to my future self. Because you start to be like, and particularly like you think about a three year project, right? You're like, yeah,

Mike Sansone [01:02:37] I

Vance Crowe [01:02:37] Don't know what I was thinking when I did this,

Mike Sansone [01:02:39] Or

Vance Crowe [01:02:39] I got involved with this person, or why I was so enthusiastic about this. You go back and you read this manual that you've created about yourself and you're like, oh, that's because he did me a favor and I wanted to repay him, and this is how I did it. Sure,

Mike Sansone [01:02:51] Okay. Yeah. You just, you can't

Vance Crowe [01:02:52] Believe how much you, you pull out of those letters.

Mike Sansone [01:02:56] Yeah. I've never, I just, I've never, I wanted to take the journaling, I understand the value proposition in journaling. A lot of people say what you say and how important it is with, you know, just as part of their daily routine. I don't know what it is, like why I haven't been able to do it. I think part of it is like, I don't know how to like properly write to myself. You know, sometimes I feel like I'm writing myself a note. Sometimes I feel like I'm just documenting a day, you know, so I can remember it later. You know, other times I feel like I'm, you know, thinking about, you know, something that may be deeply emotional to me. I mean, it's just, I just don't have a, I guess I don't, don't have a great playbook on how best to journal if there is one.

Vance Crowe [01:03:36] I I, so for me, some, so I did a series where I was kind of talking about this a lot and so I've, I've definitely thought about it a lot. One of the things that I think you can do when you're first starting is just say, the very first thing I'm gonna do is write down the emotion that I have right now. And the reason this is so powerful is most of the time we have sensations and feelings and things that we think and feel that we don't have a word for. And so we start to be like, I'm unhappy. Right? But unhappy is like a really

Mike Sansone [01:04:07] Broad

Vance Crowe [01:04:07] General Yeah,

Mike Sansone [01:04:08] That's a really vague word. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:04:09] Right. And if instead you're like, I'm nervous or I'm, I'm, you know, feeling anxious, and then you write that down and then just say, gi gimme two sentences. That's all about why you think that is. Sure,

Mike Sansone [01:04:20] Sure.

Vance Crowe [01:04:20] And the very act of just doing one word and two sentences pops you into a different space. And

Mike Sansone [01:04:26] When,

Vance Crowe [01:04:27] When I did this, I was going back and you realize like, man, I don't actually like the person that is the raw emotion. Me. And I, I found that I liked the person that wrote the two sentences after, or maybe the sentences after the sentence I had written, because that person was more thoughtful about why do I have these emotions and what's going on as opposed to just inhabiting the

Mike Sansone [01:04:50] Sure, sure, sure, sure. How often do you look back on it?

Vance Crowe [01:04:53] Not very often. Okay.

Mike Sansone [01:04:55] Not,

Vance Crowe [01:04:55] Not very often. You know, I had this experience where my mentor, before I was a journaler, I would always write him letters, his name's Pete. I would send him letters. One time I went to visit him and I saw that he had this file cabinet of people that had sent him letters. And it didn't really dawn on me until he pulled out my folder and handed it to me. And I'm reading these letters that I had written him, and I started being like, wow, look at how much I remember now about the past. I wish somebody would write letters to me. And then I was like, oh, you idiot.

Mike Sansone [01:05:23] Gotcha.

Vance Crowe [01:05:24] That's what a journal is. That's you writing few letters to future yourself.

Mike Sansone [01:05:27] And do you, do you keep a physical journal or is it electronic? I mean, is it electronic?

Vance Crowe [01:05:30] All physical. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Sansone [01:05:32] Got,

Vance Crowe [01:05:32] And that was a big transition too. I tried to do like electronic journals. I know there are apps out there, but I have my, my workbook, like this is the thing that throws every, all of my notes in what should I should do. And then I have another book that's kind of put away that is just, Hey, these are my emotions. This is what I'm going through. This is what I'm afraid of. And that one, I mean, I almost don't go looking through it because it's so when you get good at it, it becomes so close to these like nerve points that you're like, I can look at that and I can feel good or I can feel sad or whatever. But it's a lot. So you, you just, it's almost becomes this like power book that you have. Sure,

Mike Sansone [01:06:11] Sure, sure. Got it. Now, do you like, so if you have a physical journal, if you're gonna read a book, I mean, do you read it on your iPad? Do you get a physical book? How do you do that?

Vance Crowe [01:06:19] I, for years while I was traveling, I did a ton of audio books. And then I started to realize that I could not recall the story nearly as well a year later or two years later. So I, I read it, I try and read a book or two books a month and I, I always get the physical copy. Is it much, much more likely to keep coming back to it?

Mike Sansone [01:06:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's kind of how I am too. Yeah. I like the physical copy. I find that, I mean, it's obviously more convenient to, you know, not have it and just read from my iPad and things like that, but there's like something that's kind of romantic also about actually owning the book and having the book and having it on a bookshelf and you know, looking back to it and things like that. But just when you

Vance Crowe [01:07:01] Set up Yeah, that, that, that right there. These are the books I have from this year. Right. And it's just like a little log of what did I do? Where did my mind go? Yeah.

Mike Sansone [01:07:08] Yeah. That's cool. That's cool.

Vance Crowe [01:07:10] Mike Sansone, this has been a blast. I am so glad you came on. I'm sure we'll have you on to talk more about real estate, both in St. Louis and across the the South. So thank you man.

Mike Sansone [01:07:20] Alright. Alright man, thanks a lot. I appreciate it, Vance.

Vance Crowe [01:07:23] That's gonna do it for today. Thank you so much for being here. I am so excited to be doing podcasts at a more frequent level and a lot of that has to do with still being at home for Coronavirus, which has given me the time to make this new network and set of classes that I've been doing. I'm really pretty excited about 'em. Thank you to all the people that raise their hand to be beta test users. I don't need anymore. If you'd like to be in the first wave of people to subscribe, I'm gonna try and chunk it out from fixing the corrections that the beta test users spot, then having some of the loyal fans and listen longtime listeners of the show kind of come in there, see if it's valuable, if you like the network, if you take the classes, if you think they're valuable and then we'll open it up to the general public. So if you wanna be one of those groups in the first wave, just go to my website, Vance Crowe dot com and put your email in and then that way I can send it out to you. So thank you so much for being here and we will be back very soon. I have some really fun people coming up to do some interviews, so looking forward to it.