Mark Spewak; Running coach on talking to pain, reaching your goals and getting started with running

Mark Spewak [00:00:00] I, I know the formula. So the form, and I'm sure an Annie sees the same thing when it comes to physical therapy. If you do the same, if you do the exercises and you follow us and you trust us, and you know the tendencies of how people are gonna go in their recovery process, obviously everybody's different in a training process, but you pretty much know you've seen, you've seen a lot, and you know that if they stick with you, they're gonna be successful. I'm Bruce figure, a veterinarian living in Sylvia, Kansas, and you're listening to the Vance Crow podcast.

Vance Crowe [00:00:30] Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Well, this starts a new thing I'm gonna try out, I had a listener request that I start doing some series. That way we could deep dive into a subject from a bunch of different angles. So the first series I wanna do is on exercise. So I have invited on a running coach, my wife, the most extraordinary physical therapist that I've ever met, and a woman that runs a bootcamp. So we're going to do these interviews and let you kind of experience a way of thinking about exercise from a whole bunch of different angles. And today's interview is with a man named Mark Speach, who is a well-known running coach here in the St. Louis area. In fact, he is a beloved running coach that is highly respected by people that I deeply respect, including my wife, who has a very discerning view of people in athletics. So we sat down and had a fantastic conversation about why in the world somebody would hire a, some, a coach for something as simple as running. We have a really interesting conversation about psychology and mental models and how to get yourself to push through things. It's really interesting and one of the things that comes out during this conversation is the concept of journaling. This is something that listeners have requested that I help them out with many, many times if I could put out journal prompts and if I could help them get a pattern of doing a journal. And so that's what we're doing this month coming up for our the, in the Articulate Ventures network, we are going to have journal writing experience for everybody.

Vance Crowe [00:02:07] So every day everyone is expected to write in their own journal for five to 10 minutes. And we will be providing journal prompts that can get you going to try and think about how do I take this blank white page and turn it into something that's valuable, something that helps me reflect on what's going on in my life and help me project forward about what I should be doing with my life. So if you're interested in doing that, you can always join the Articulate Ventures network. We are a small group. We purposefully are trying to grow slowly, but we would love to have more Vance Crow podcast listeners in there because we know that every person that comes and joins our community makes the whole place better. So if you're interested in doing that, you can go to Network dot Articulate Ventures and sign up. You can sign up for a month, or if you're ready to commit the whole way, you can sign up for the whole year. Either way, it's a great way to meet an interesting community of people and to push yourself to do new and interesting things, which is something that we're going to talk with Mark spi, walk the head trainer at SP Walk training about running. So I hope you enjoy this interview. I know I sure did. It was inspiring and exciting and I hope you like it too. Mark SPI Walk, welcome to the podcast.

Mark Spewak [00:03:23] Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be here.

Vance Crowe [00:03:26] So you are the first person of this exercise series that I'm doing, and the reason I'm interviewing you is because you are a running coach and on its face running Coach seems like a crazy profession to me because doesn't everybody already know how to run?

Mark Spewak [00:03:43] Yeah, that's, no, that's a really good question. I think that a lot of people think when they hear Running Coach, like they, they obviously think, okay, why would somebody need a running coach? Because like you said, to your point, you should know how to run or like, don't you do that in other sports? It's punishment. And then two, I think people just don't understand. It doesn't make a lot of sense to them. And so how I describe it to people is think personal trainer and think about if you are specifically, you know, working towards a goal with your personal trainer, but now get rid of the, I mean, you're gonna do strength training as a running coach, but think, take away the strength training component to it and add running to it, and it's basically the same kind of thing. So that helps people kind of understand it. But for the most part, yes, they're, it, you would never, I mean, the amount of people that, that they start off their email and they say, I don't think I need a running coach, or, I can't believe I'm contacting you because I'm not even really sure, like, you know, when I'm gonna get, you know, if like I'm even the right fit. And I'm like, the reality is that I actually think like most people would benefit from a running coach because a running coach is kind of a running coach, a therapist, a health coach. We're kind of all things in one. So it it's more, it's more specific than you would think, but yes, you're right. It's, it's chaos On paper,

Vance Crowe [00:04:54] I became a runner last year and it was, it was actually like a, a journey that I had to go on because I never saw myself as a person that was a runner. And then I had to run so much that I ran past hating it and get to a new different way of thinking about it. But there is something really deep about running in that you are there by yourself in your head in a way that you aren't with any other activity that you do.

Mark Spewak [00:05:22] Yeah, no, I, I, I agree with that. And I think that's like the hardest part for people when they first start is they're so worried. Like, I, I don't know this if you can attest to this, but when you first started running, you, like, you really don't know what you're doing. And a lot of it is pain at first, you know, you're working on, you know, going through new boundaries. But to your point, once I think you start to become consistent and you know, like where your happy medium is, that's when you get those benefits from the, you know, the endorphins and all those different things from the mental side where people will say like, you know, men, you know, running is the cheapest way of therapy. And in, in a lot of ways, I mean, I, I don't know, can you attest to this, where like you felt a certain way and then you went for a run, you had a totally different attitude afterwards.

Vance Crowe [00:06:00] Oh, a hundred percent. Like I have come to the conclusion that when I hit a mental wall, I should go for a run, and then all I'm trying to do is overcome the voice of resistance. It's like, no, you can do it without the run, don't worry about it. The run will be hard, don't do that. But once you then get past that, then it totally can clear out your brain. I I often say that it's the first three miles are what I'm paying into, and then after three miles, then I get whatever amount I can run after that I get in clear thinking.

Mark Spewak [00:06:30] Yeah. Yeah, it's, I mean, it is such a mental, I mean, I think most exercise, there's obviously a huge mental component to it, but running so much is, you know, you, you have to do it outside and the conditions are not always the best when you do it. I mean, and obviously you can do it indoors, you can run on treadmills, but for the most part, like you're convincing yourself to go do something really hard as a choice of fun exercise. And so like, I'll use the example of, you know, in the wintertime, a lot of times people really struggle to get out the door for a run in the wintertime just because it's, you know, when you're inside and you're in your bed, it's super warm, you know, it's, you're very comfortable and you hear the alarm clock go off. And even if you felt away the night before, like, oh, I'm super excited about running the next day, it doesn't matter. Like, I still feel this way and I've been running for 15 years. Like, I don't, you just don't want to get out there. And so I just tell you,

Vance Crowe [00:07:17] So I, I call that the voice of resistance. Do you have that? Yeah. Like, can you name it? Do you know that voice?

Mark Spewak [00:07:22] I don't think I've ever like labeled it like that. That's a really good, I might have to steal that because I, I love that you can actually like, you know, like narrow it down and see that I, I think that the way I've always looked at it is it's just that it's negative temptation, you know? It's, it's a, it's something that's gonna try to distract you from your overall goal. One of my clients always says, there's a nighttime version of you and there's a morningtime version of you, and don't let nighttime version of you piss off morning version of you. And I love that because he'll say that like he, you know, he kind of talks about just an, an effect of like how, you know, you stay up a little bit later and you're like, oh, this is fun. I'm gonna have another beer, I'm gonna eat chips, all this different stuff. And in the morning you always regret it. So it's, I try to think like in those situations where you're struggling to get out the door, think about like, mark in an hour, think about Mark down the road, what's best interest of Mark down the road? And that's kind of how I try to convince myself and encourage people to kind of think of it.

Vance Crowe [00:08:17] I think that that's one of the benefits of journaling that is, that I think went hand in hand with me running a lot was journaling A allows you to think about your future self in a way that you can't if you're just inside of your head, right? So if you write a letter to yourself of these are the things that I want to do or the person that I wanna be, it allows you to bring forward and, and like, you know, I was mentioning the voice of resistance. I, I actually think you, any single human being is made up of all these different vs or all these different marks and they're all competing for your decision making capacity. And so the only way that I can get, you know, future Vance to be as happy as possible is if I'm contemplating in a deep way how I'm going to get past the voice of resistance.

Mark Spewak [00:09:05] Yeah, no, I love that. I, I think that you're just like in a really healthy spot, especially because you're willing to do things like journaling. Like you're going back and you're reflecting and running, like there's actually a lot of runners who journal because they log their miles, you know? And so they do it like in a lot of ways they're journaling without even knowing the journaling, you know, they're writing, okay, like this is how the run went today. And the, the goal like normal journaling is to look back and if you have a bad workout or something happens, you can say, okay, well I, you know, ate pizza the night before this workout, or Oh, I noticed like the last two weeks I've only gotten six hours of sleep when I typically get seven and a half. You know, and so there's a lot of value, but having that, having that perspective, like actually be able to look at it and say, okay, I can, I can define these things, I can understand that I'm, it is a very, very healthy approach and I think a lot of people struggle with that. I mean, I think that's not even just running, I think that's all areas of life. It's hard to kind of be able to see that,

Vance Crowe [00:09:58] You know, as a person that's a running coach. You were mentioning before that you're kind of a therapist, you're kind of a personal trainer or a weightlifting coach. When you're thinking about somebody having goals, like how do they arrive at the goals that they have? Because I think there are a lot of people that are like, I don't have any goals for running. I don't want to get faster. I don't wanna get, why is it that somebody ever comes up with a goal that they want? What have you learned about that from working with people?

Mark Spewak [00:10:24] Yeah, no, I, goals are, you know, and so like I'll clarify like, you know, my, my job is, is running specific, but I kind of wear different hats in the sense that, you know, we're gonna incorporate strength training, we're gonna incorporate, you know, the mental side of things. But I always, first and foremost, I always stay in my lane, you know? And so if there's something like that, a runner needs that I coach, they need more specific instruction on strength training. They need more specific instruction on mental strategies and we're gonna refer that out just like referring out to your wife when it comes to, you know, somebody having an injury and they needing to work on something and strengthen those areas. But what, to answer your question, you know, I think when it comes to goals, a lot of people in life have specific goals that are like, okay, fans, like your goal might be, I want to run, we'll just make up a time. I wanna run a 15 minute two mile. Which you might go out the door every single day and work towards that 15 minute two mile, which is great. But a lot of it, like when you run that 15 minute two mile will depend on, is the weather nice? You know, did you have the right conditions? Did you have people to run with? And so there's a lot of things that have to go right for you to be successful in that goal. And so if you only measure on one specific goal on that specific day and you don't hit it, then all that work you put in might not be, you know, like what you thought was, you know, beneficial, you might not have that same confidence in yourself. So I always encourage people to have more process goals. And so when somebody's coming to me, they're like, I don't know what kind of goals I should have in this sport. I ask them, okay, so like, what are you looking to get out of running? Like, what are you looking to get outta exercise?

Mark Spewak [00:11:56] And most of the time they're gonna say like, yeah, of course I wanna train and I wanna run the Boston Marathon, or I wanna train and I wanna, you know, do the best I can this upcoming race. But a lot of times they're gonna say, I wanna be happy, I wanna be healthy, I wanna be able to do this consistently for a very long time. And so a lot of the goals I suggest for people are having process goals. And that's something that we can control. You know, obviously, you know, you know, if you break your leg, you're not gonna be able to meet a process goal, but it's gonna be something like, okay, I just wanna run five days a week for a month straight and I wanna feel healthy doing it. And if you do that, you get through a month, I promise you they're gonna get faster and they're gonna get faster without even thinking about having to get faster. They're gonna be thinking about, oh, I wanna be healthy, I wanna be strong. And so, so many of the goals that I encourage people to have is just based on doing your best to have these goals that are empowering yourself opposed to setting yourself up for disappointment. If you have one specific goal, it doesn't go that way. 'cause we've all been there, I think we've all had that, we've had a great, you know, training cycle or personal training, whatever that is. And then we can't see the value of success in ourselves. And the reality is that no matter what happens on that given day, there's always gonna be another goal. And if you want to have a confidence to be able to continue to excel in your life and progress, you've gotta be able to keep building yourself with positive momentum. And I think that's why process goals in a lot of ways are beneficial for everybody.

Vance Crowe [00:13:15] Man, I really resonate with process goals. I, I think that those, because you can fall into that false trap of like the person that says, Hey, I wanna run a marathon, or I want to do an Iron man. And they imagine that their life will somehow be better when they're done doing that thing. And so they, they forget, they, they're just trying to endure the journey in order that they can get to that thing so that that way life will be better. And and I realized when I decided that I was gonna run 500 miles and it was just a totally like pulled it out of the air because I was like, how would you ever become a runner? Because I'm not a runner, I don't see myself as a runner. I know how you would become a runner if you ran 500 miles in a single year, then you could call yourself a runner. And I was like, okay, then that's what I'm gonna do. And, and over time, by just trying to fulfill that mileage, I quit being, once I knew I could achieve it, then it was just like, all right, I'm just gonna go out there and keep doing this. And it was what I became that made running far more enjoyable than any other time I'd ever run where I was like, I want to get this mile time, or I want to get this far. It was really, really different for me. So I really like your process goal idea.

Mark Spewak [00:14:26] No, and it, it's cool even just hearing that from you because you know, I think, you know, for the most part, a lot of the people that I work with, they're finding the sport later in life. They're not, maybe they didn't necessarily run for fun, you know, growing up or in high school they might have this negative connotation behind it because it was a punishment and then they get, you know, down the road and they need to choose exercise and they're like, okay, like I wanna run. But then like you said, they don't consider themselves a runner and it, and to get that perspective to see how everybody kind of falls into their journey. And I, that's something I always tell people when they first start. It's like, stop being so hard on yourself of what you think a runner is and what a runner isn't. Because some of the best runners in the country right now, you know, some of them have crazy untraditional stories, like they didn't all run in high school and college, you know, some of them picked some of our best marathoners, like they picked it up later, you know, they played other sports and they transitioned later in their career to doing this. So I think that's what's so cool about our sport is that you can do it for a really long time. And running doesn't have to be about competition. You know, like I train, yeah, a lot of people who, you know, are looking to get faster, you know, or looking to improve their goals, but there's tons of people out there that would rather have goals like yourself, like you were saying, like I just wanna run X amount of miles and I wanna be healthy doing it. And I think that's something that at least for me, I feel like, you know, like my thing that I feel like I'm overly, you know, passionate about, you know, on my soapbox about is just trying to share this sport outside of just people thinking of it as running. You know, I want to, I want people to really feel like it can be whatever you want it to be and let it empower you in whatever way that is.

Mark Spewak [00:15:57] And that doesn't have to be, you have to train for a marathon. It doesn't have to be that you run two miles. It can be whatever that is. But anybody that's participating in this exercise and building a routine around it has their own journey and that's what matters most.

Vance Crowe [00:16:10] So my wife Annie is a technical like expert and she loves other technical experts. And when she brings you up, when your name comes up, she just lights up. She just loves talking about what Mark does for his runners. And so what is it that you do? Like why is it that somebody would call you up and say, Hey Mark, I wanna hire a running coach?

Mark Spewak [00:16:32] No, no, I appreciate that. I think, you know, like what makes our, you know, Annie and I work so well together is that I think we both have this like insane amount of passion in helping somebody reach that end all goal for whatever that is for that person. And so like, you know, she's completely different than me in personality, but when it comes down to work ethic and it comes down to like wanting to like win, I feel like we're on that same wavelength because, and I, and I, I, so I'll use her as an example. Like I was so blown away when I found this out, but I had a, I had an athlete who needed help and my first call was over to, you know, to Annie and Jesse and I was like, can you get them in? And she got her in on a 3:00 PM on a Sunday and even in the email it says 3:00 PM on a Sunday. And what I saw from that was just dedication. And I know that when she's working with that athlete, 'cause I've seen the experience of just with her, with other people, I know that she really cares about it. Like yeah, like she's gonna miss out like being at home or you know, being with her family, you know, with the baby violet and everything. But when she's at her job and she's working, she's in a clear head space and this is what she wants to be. And that's how I feel as a running coach. That's how I feel with people. It's like, you love what you do and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to go above and beyond to make sure that whatever that person wants out of this is gonna be able to be put in the best position possible to have a shot at, you know, being successful. And so, so much of what I do, I would say is just I try to over communicate. I try to do my due diligence, so do my research, you know, if, if I don't have an answer, best thing I ever learned, I feel like when I worked at Bigger River Running Company selling shoes was like one of the best lessons I ever learned early in my professional career was if you don't know the answer, don't tell the customer what you think, you know something just to say that you have an answer, go find out the answer and tell them, Hey, I'm gonna get back to you and then follow through on that.

Mark Spewak [00:18:24] And I just remember thinking like, wow, like you actually probably get even more of a value in somebody's head if you don't know the answer, call that person back, tell them you actually have the answer and give them more feedback. And I think that's what Annie does so well with. Obviously she, she clearly has the answers right off the bat, but we're both, I would say we're both similar in the sense that we're gonna do whatever it takes to get the right kind of information. And so like for me, like if I can't help somebody, they, they come to me, they're working with me, they have an injury or something happens, then I'm gonna make sure that I'm surrounding myself with the best resources possible. And so, so much of my job, yes, is me trying to provide the best customer service, trying to be, provide the best coaching. But a lot of my job too is I wanna make sure I surround myself with the best experts and the most educated people possible. So that if you call spew out training and you're working with us, then we're gonna be able to refer you to other great, you know, opportunities as well.

Vance Crowe [00:19:19] I think you maybe have a little bit of the curse of knowledge here because I think when I say what is it that you do when you help somebody, you're like, oh you know, we do all these things. But I think for the most part people think, well if you wanna run faster than you just have to tell your brain run faster. And so what is it that a coach does that's other than go faster?

Mark Spewak [00:19:40] Yeah, no, that's a good question. I would say that you have to figure out like you do the training, so like did you play other sports like growing up or anything?

Vance Crowe [00:19:48] Yeah, I played football and a little bit of soccer. Yep.

Mark Spewak [00:19:50] Okay. So playing football and playing soccer like you practice plays and practice, correct? Oh

Vance Crowe [00:19:55] Yeah. Yeah. So

Mark Spewak [00:19:56] Then you get to the game and you're gonna probably, they're probably gonna call a play that you've worked on and if you're special teams you worked on that specific special teams play. And I think in running, people forget that we practice every single day. You know, it's not the same kind of workouts every single day, but we practice, we get out there. And so running, if you're mentally in a good spot and you have the right kind of training program and that means balanced miles, you know, things that are gonna put, you know, speed, workouts, long runs, all these different things and you're, let's just say you're training for a marathon, you're gonna be ready for that marathon. Where a lot of runners to your point struggle is that they put in all that training and they don't define any of those practice days. So they just put the training in and then they show up to the race. I'm like, I'm expecting to run well today where like if you went an entire week, we're getting ready. Like I'll use the New England Patriots as an example watching first take ESPN, I watch it a bunch at lunchtime. And they were saying like, you know, one of the main reasons why I think the, they feel like the Patriots are struggling right now is that their system is so much about preparation and because of COVID VID and because they've actually had to shut down their facility, not having those practice days is why they're underperforming in these games. And I see that so much with running is that like, I know it's different because we're actually getting in these runs, but I think a lot of times runners do not take the time to actually think about what they're doing and build confidence from it. So where I come in to to your question is I come in and say, okay, this is what you're doing, this is what we're gonna reflect on and this is how we're gonna work on this.

Mark Spewak [00:21:28] And so I like to actually have speed workouts that are gonna simulate what a race will feel like. Obviously you don't do it the same way, but you have different types of workouts that give your mind that same kind of stimulation that you're gonna see, you know, maybe really hard in the middle of the 5K or what it's gonna be like to be at the end of a long run or be into a, you know, a long marathon race. We're gonna simulate that in a long run where we might run the end of a long run at marathon pace just to simulate what that's gonna feel like. And if we can practice these specific things, yeah, you're gonna be nervous when you step on that starting line, but you're gonna have a game plan, you're gonna understand where you're at. So, so much of my job is the mental component of helping people learn how to speak to that pain, speak to the hardships, all those different things with a positive attitude to be able to help that person be successful when the moment comes. Because the reality is in any sport, you know, be, I look at Steve Kerr with the Chicago Bulls, you know, he said he took that shot. I mean how many times before he took that shot in the, I think it was the 97 finals hit the game winning shot. But when he got that ball and he shot that, you know, he won the, won the NBA championship with the three pointer, that was just another shot for him because he's practiced that over and over again. And obviously there's higher stakes, but I know it's a silly analogy, but it's the same with running when you're in a race and it gets hard, the people who want to take a shot, like who aren't scared to be successful, take that shot

Vance Crowe [00:22:47] And

Mark Spewak [00:22:47] You make it. And if you're afraid of the pain and you're afraid of what that outcome's gonna be, yeah you're gonna be the one that speaks negative to yourself and falls back. So, so much of my job I would say I'm different from a lot of running coaches and I really, really emphasis the positivity. I really emphasis the mental side even as much as I'm gonna be doing the training side.

Vance Crowe [00:23:05] Let's talk about that. You had a really interesting turn of phrase, speak to the pain, what that is. What do you mean by that? Yeah,

Mark Spewak [00:23:12] Yeah, so what your running, do you ever, like what do you do in terms of your running, you had the goal of 500 miles, like what else are you doing?

Vance Crowe [00:23:20] So I like now I have a goal that I'm gonna go with one of my buddies, we're gonna run from our house down to the arch. Okay. And that's, that's where, so we're now we're trying to build up that we could do one long run, whereas before I was just knocking out four or five miles every time I went out. So I'm trying to build up the distance.

Mark Spewak [00:23:37] Okay, awesome. And so in this process, have you had any like all out efforts would you say? Like have you ever gone for a run that's like incredibly hard, like mentally and physically?

Vance Crowe [00:23:47] So what we do is two days a week we, we do a longer run and we increase by 15% each week. 'cause that's what Annie told me was, okay,

Mark Spewak [00:23:56] Yeah, what we can do

Vance Crowe [00:23:57] Without getting injured. And then we do one run where we do basically a mile of sprinting, but that's it. There's no plan there. It's just like it's rather than run four miles, we're gonna sprint a mile basically uphill too.

Mark Spewak [00:24:08] Yeah. And you're getting, you're getting that, that hard effort from the fact that every single week you're increasing that long run so your legs are more tired every single week, I'm sure you know. And so that you're being pushed and having that person next to you probably is helpful from the accountability standpoint. And that's very similar to how a runner's gonna feel like if they're doing a really hard speed workout or an all out, I'll use the example of an all out 5K, when you run to your fullest potential and a 5K, you're gonna be a, a pain that you've never felt before. And I, I always say this, it's like, it's funny but you look at the professional runners in our sport who are running the fastest, we have some of the toughest people and we're like 130 pounds, you know, it's like you look at these guys in, in gals and you think, oh, like they're not an NFL linebacker or things like that. The amount of pain that they're willing to go through, but being willing to, to endure, but also like the fact that they can speak to it, like you said positively is why they're so successful. And so the way that, the way I view it is that any, any person in their life is gonna hit hardship. I was actually talking about this with my girlfriend last night because she's in law school and I believe in the thir like the three, like three quarters end concept for anything you do. That's law school, that's running, that's your job. Anything we all, if we set ourselves, like if we set up ourselves to follow some type of journey or have some specific goal in that process to hit that goal, you're always gonna get three quarters in. And so in a race, three quarters in is the hardest part, but if you think about it, three quarters in like in your normal life is really hard too. And so the people who overcome three quarters in and finish strong are the ones that get three quarters in and say to themselves, you know, this is really hard.

Mark Spewak [00:25:46] And I'm recognizing to your point, they journal that they understand it. I recognize where I'm at, I'm present. This is actually where I have to put more effort in because this is where most people go backwards because everybody's gonna have something when the end is in sight. But when you can't see that finish and you're in the biggest part of like especially in running, when you're in that part where you can't see the finish and you're in the hardest part, it's so easy for yourself to mentally want to check out and just take it easy because you're like, what's the point? And then what ends up happening is that you get close to that finish line, there's people, you know, pre COVID cheering for you, you hear the music and all of a sudden you have this extra burst of energy. And that could have been, you know, you could have actually had more energy to push through in that hardest part if you knew how to attack that. And with running, because you're running so fast and it's so hard, you don't have a lot of time to think because I know it sounds funny like you're overthinking and you're under thinking at the same time. And I know that sounds kind of like contradicting itself, but the point is that when you're in that really difficult stage of like all out racing, your head is almost to a default in a really negative spot. I don't care how positive a person you are, you can't, you cannot fight that. So on the backend as a coach, we work outside of running to follow strategies, bring mantras up, whatever that is like, you know, work on visualization, all those things so that when that moment comes in the race, you have some type of tool to kind of knock yourself outta that moment and still gonna be extremely difficult. But if you have no game plan for three quarters in, then you're gonna just do what you're probably gonna do and and kind of fall into your thoughts that are typically gonna be negative opposed to be positive.

Vance Crowe [00:27:24] Man, this speaks to me on so many levels. Like I, I think you're exactly right. Like when we get into something at first you get the euphoria of I'm trying something new and then you get a little further in and you're like, hey look, I'm doing it, it's working. And then you start on that long march downward to the trough of disillusionment. And then, and then like I know for me when I was do doing the 500 miles, I got to about 350 miles and I was like, oh, I could clearly do this, so what's the point of doing it at all? Yep.

Mark Spewak [00:27:56] Right?

Vance Crowe [00:27:56] Like I know I can, so now do I have to? And the hardest part was continuing going at the rate or faster than I was before. 'cause I was like, I'd already like taken all the happiness off of the, I'd already taken all the winnings off the table.

Mark Spewak [00:28:13] Yeah, no, I love that. And when you hit 500, like did you think about how you felt during three quarters end? Or did you think, oh my gosh, I hit 500 and now I wanna celebrate it?

Vance Crowe [00:28:23] Yeah, I mean like the, the, it was so much happier to finish 500 than whatever I was feeling like when I knew I could do it, but I hadn't done it. Yeah, but there's no way you could hand someone that, like, you can't hand them the sensation of finishing unless you've actually finished it.

Mark Spewak [00:28:39] And that's the hardest thing about being a coach because I, I know the formula. So the form, and I'm sure an Annie sees the same thing when it comes to physical therapy. If you do the same, if you do the exercises and you follow us and you trust us and you know the tendencies of how people are gonna go in their recovery process, obviously everybody's different in a training process, but you pretty much know you've seen, you've seen a lot and you know that if they stick with you, they're gonna be successful. And so I always laugh, I say a month out of my goal raise for my athletes, I'm spend most of my time just trying to convince people who are really fit, that they're fit. I get the craziest emails, the craziest thoughts. Like I had a guy, he had the most negative things to say about himself and like two days later had the greatest workout of his life. And it's like it because your mind is telling you, to your point, your mind is telling you, ah, what's the point? I don't know if I'm really that good. You start to check out because like anything, you've been doing it for a while, it becomes boring, it's monotonous also, you're tired, you're fatigued in a training program, three quarters in because you're working so hard, you're so mentally fatigued. And that reflects in how you're gonna just approach life. I mean I think unfortunately with training, I think at any level of any sport, we're always battling that line of over training. And so even if you're not over training, you're on the line and you know, just a result of overtraining is just kind of default into more kind of depressive behavior. It's pretty normal for people who are working at a really high level because you're using so much, you know, store in your body to be able to get the endorphins, get the juice flowing for the actual workout itself.

Mark Spewak [00:30:12] So only naturally the rest of your life, your mindset is gonna be impacted by it. And so that's why it's important to have a coach because they can monitor, you know, where you're at and help you. But the reality of it is that this is the best parallel for what it's gonna look like when you get into a race. And so to your point, like you get across that finish line and you're super happy and you're super pumped up and you don't even think about that. And so I think more than anything, for most people, they just have to, if you have a coach, trust them. If you have a physical therapist, trust them. You know, if you have a personal trainer, trust them. If you're doing the program, trust it and go with it and just keep grinding. If you don't have those things, take that, let it resonate with you. Really work on that. But the reality is you just have to learn this for yourself.

Vance Crowe [00:30:55] It's fascinating that we have this concept that we're in control of ourselves, right? But then in reality you have these competing voices, you have these things that are telling you just give up. And it's, it's, it's so interesting to think about why that is. And from your point of view, you know, you've got people that are achieving, they're so close to getting something they wanted so deeply and they're like, huh, it's just not working. I'm terrible. I'm never gonna be successful. Why do you think our brains work this way?

Mark Spewak [00:31:27] Yeah, that's, it's a question I, you know, it's like why I really love hearing about just sports psychology and the mental side of things because you know, I think that's a part of sports that's, you know, now a lot more, you know, appreciated. I think that that the conversation's more out there, people are speaking about it more just because I think mental health is more of a, you know, prevalent, you know, conversation going on. But I, I think that, I think we go there kind of to my point because we're overtrained, you know, like we're not overtrained but we're, we're working so hard that like we're our emotions and our thoughts are only reflecting how we're feeling. And so that's why I feel like three quarters into your training cycle is a great parallel for three quarters into a race because you're still capable of doing this, but you've actually hit the point that's supposed to be really difficult. And so that's why we have to, on the back end, work on these specific things to kind of help you stay positive. And what I'll do is, I'm, I'm, I'm kind of a jerk about this, but I will actually quote people. So I'll take what they wrote to me a month out. And so when they run their prs, I'll send them a follow-up email just as a joke and say, Hey, do you remember when you said X, y, Z? You know, 'cause they're, you know, they're super fired up. And I say, look at what you said, like you said, I want to quit or I'm not capable, all these different things. And I, I do this because I want somebody to build confidence, but also remember, these are the thoughts that you had about yourself and if you wanna be successful in life and running and whatever you do, that attitude is sometimes gonna propel you. Of course it motivates you. Like, oh, I feel like I suck all these different things.

Mark Spewak [00:32:58] But in the long run, that's not sustainable. Like we have to have more positive thoughts from ourselves if we want to be successful. We have to be the ones that stay away from the negativity and find ways to bring negative situations into something positive. And so what I will ask for my athletes is find a way to reflect on how you felt like three quarters into a race or three quarters into training, whatever that is, find a way to reflect on that and find a way to move forward in the future and have more positive mantras and build confidence. And even if it sounds cliche, which they're like, oh, it's too cliche, I can't do that. I'm like, figure out a way to do it because the people around you who are gonna have excuses and they're not gonna be successful are gonna be the ones that are saying to themselves those things over and over again. And you don't wanna be that

Vance Crowe [00:33:39] Man that is, man, you are really hitting on things that really resonate with me right now. And I think like the hardest journal entries to go back and read are the ones when you are feeling sorry for yourself for sure, right? Like when you go back and you're like, wait a second, why did I think that everything was unfair and it wasn't working and all these other people were the cause of my problems. But you, you will not be able to make those realizations unless you write them down and like in your case, bringing them back up to people. I often talk about, you know, one of the mindsets that I have had to build into my life to help me improve is I think about what if heaven and hell is you? Eternity is just you watching a movie of your life over and over and over again. And the hell would be those times when you felt self pity and you were, you know, wallowing and eating chips and doing all these terrible things. And the the heaven would be, when you're watching yourself do something really difficult and you get through it, like to me you could have a, like you really genuinely would be heaven and hell if all you were doing was rewatching this movie over and over again. And to your point, like you can't have those observations unless somebody is pointing them out to you or you are very diligent about doing it on your own with the journal.

Mark Spewak [00:35:02] Yeah, that's, that's, that's so cool. I I, that resonates with me. I mean I think, you know, there's a, there's a theory behind there, there's a sports psychologist that was talking about this, but he was saying that like, you should have a highlight reel for your life. You know, I think he works with a lot of professional NBA players and he, well his point behind that is that you should be looking at yourself every single day in a positive way and seeing what you did well at, you know, I think for most of us it's like we wanna spend our time on thinking about all the things that we're not doing well with and we don't spend enough time seeing what we do well with. And if, I don't know, it's silly. Like sometimes if you go down the rabbit hole and you like look at something that, like you look at your positive journal experiences, doesn't that make you feel better about yourself?

Vance Crowe [00:35:43] Oh yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah,

Mark Spewak [00:35:44] Exactly. Yeah. And

Vance Crowe [00:35:46] You think, how can I get back there? What do I have to do to get back to that spot right there?

Mark Spewak [00:35:50] Definitely, definitely. And then that's where, if you're a motivated person, that's where you find that, oh, I'm gonna call my running coach up 'cause I want a plan. Oh, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna go do X, y, Z. And so if we're not incorporating enough of those highlight moments, you know, the positive moments to your point heaven, then we're not gonna be as motivated. And how could you be motivated if all you did was just tell yourself that your environment was, I suck, can't do this, blah, blah. I'm behind. And the people I've been around who I've trained with or who I've trained who've had that attitude, they never, if they're unwilling to do the work and that, that I would say, I love that you journal, I love those specific things because I think that's the, that's the training of life on the mental side and the physical side. If you want to improve, you gotta put the work in. And the people who don't do that are the ones that will always stay on the other end. It'll always be cloudy for them and they'll always feel the way they will. And then when it things get hard, they're not gonna be able to overcome the adversity the way that somebody else is gonna just dive right in. I've, I kind of, I mean I kind of have that like Michael Jordan mentality just in the sense that like, sometimes I have to create a narrative in my head that somebody's against me to be successful. I just am very much a, like in sports, I always played upset. I was always somebody that like had to feel like people are against me. And yeah, it comes in my own racing too, where my coach will actually spend a whole week of just kind of like getting in my head, upsetting me, things like that. It didn't take me, it took me like four years to realize that my coach was messing with me, but I,

Vance Crowe [00:37:16] I just,

Mark Spewak [00:37:17] I have to be fired up and then I, I so much live my life on the comeback. Like, 'cause because I've had so many moments of adversity in my life where I've been rock bottom or I've had to overcome something. I've always been that person that said, I would rather go through this and experience it and take it head on and do what I need to do and come back out fighting opposed to just doing kind of tiptoeing around that and letting that be my, my story. And so I think so much of what I try to incorporate in my own life, I try to hopefully impact my athletes with that. And so I think for most athletes, we're, and people in general, everybody's gonna go through a setback. It's what are you going to do when your setback, when your back's against the wall and people might be counting out, you might be counting yourself out and there's no really reason for you to get back out there or want to go experience that success again. You might be in a totally horrible spot when you read that positive journey, how can you get your mind to say to yourself, I want to be successful, I'm gonna do whatever it takes. I don't want to be here sitting on the couch, you know, eating chips and being upset with myself. This is not who I want to be. And I think a lot of people are in those shoes and they just don't know how to get there. And it's not that they're trying to be, that they just don't have the resources. And so I think that's why there's benefits in like, you know, therapists, coaches, all these different things. Because at the end of the day, we all need that help to be able to get our mind in the right spot possible to keep fighting.

Vance Crowe [00:38:44] Yeah. And I act, as I'm hearing you talk, man, you really, I'm, I'm convinced more and more of the idea of a coach being, it's something transcending being a therapist, right? Because a therapist is somebody that says, oh, they're there and they have, there are good therapists out there, but like the the conceptual model of a therapist is, I'm gonna come in and share with you my problems and you're gonna help me think through them where a coach is gonna be like, Hey, get out there, we're gonna go do this thing and you're gonna get out there and, and progress.

Mark Spewak [00:39:16] Yeah. Well, and I think that's, that's a good point. I think that's the biggest difference is that, you know, the, unfortunately for a therapist, they don't have the liability kind of to be able to have like the follow through with the action pieces. You know, they're there for that session to listen and advise and guide, but they really, a coach, honestly, we kind of have a boundary that we're able to jump over just by the fact that this is how coaching's always been. And I'm not the kind of coach that will choose somebody out or cuss somebody out or yell or overreact to things. But I'm not gonna be the kind of person that's not gonna tell you what it is. It's, I'm gonna say exactly what I think needs to be heard, but I'm gonna try to have the most positive spin behind it. And so addressing it with an athlete, if they're going through something or they have a pattern that they're going through, instead of saying like, oh, I don't know why you suck, or I don't know why you keep, you know, messing up more of, hey, here are the tendencies, you know that I'm seeing from X, Y, Z and here's the environment that you're living in currently. Here's what you're doing and I know you have this specific goal, you want to be here and I'm here with you and I want to help you. And I can see that you're struggling through this and we see it in your workouts. What do we have to do together to just start getting some little wins so that we can pile up some more consistency to overcome these little battles? And I think so often coaches, parents, teachers things, you know, anybody in a leadership position, you overreact because you're not seeing the positive outcome. So you just yell at somebody for, I don't understand where I think the art of coaching, to your point, the therapy side of it is that you just sometimes have to just listen.

Mark Spewak [00:40:48] You know, like I was upset because recently I felt like a client wasn't listening to me enough and I realized that, you know, they're not reading a lot of the stuff that I'm writing because there's a lot more in their life outside of just what I'm doing. You know, the, the running is a part of their life, but they have other stresses. You know, I work with people who have families, I work with people who, you know, are going in, you know, full-time school, you know, full-time work, all these situations. And so if a coach or parent teacher doesn't factor in those life stresses, then you're gonna be at a disadvantage. And so it's like how can we work together to meet that end all goal? And I think that's the most important part. And I'm sure Annie feels the same way with how she helps people progress. But I know from her experience, 'cause I've seen clients work with her, she does the same thing and she does it so well. She finds a way to keep you on path and motivate you and be on you about doing this, but doing it in a positive way that doesn't degrade you. And I think that's the big thing, like with your own running as you've kind of like guided into it and you're doing what you're doing with your brother or your friend.

Vance Crowe [00:41:51] Oh, I have just a, a buddy of mine that we're doing it with now. Yeah.

Mark Spewak [00:41:55] Okay. So when you're doing this, like, would you say that like every single week you're getting out there, are you experiencing like different emotions doing it? Like are you fi as you've increased your mileage now you have different goals? Like do you find yourself kind of evolving as the process goes?

Vance Crowe [00:42:13] Yeah, I mean thi this time of running, which, you know, 500 miles was last year. And then I had some time where I was just kinda doing my own thing and then we came up with this goal. So we're doing it and it's a very different experience to be running with another person because there's one part competition. 'cause we're both kind of like always running to be out ahead and there's one part of like, ah, he's not doing the workouts we agreed to and kind of struggling with that. And then there's all the internal dialogue that happens that's completely by yourself. So it's a really different mixture to be doing now that, that I didn't anticipate. I thought we would just go run together. I didn't think it through.

Mark Spewak [00:42:52] No, and and I love that and I ask that because I think that's the thing. There's so many moving parts, even just having a training partner, you know, it can be the best friend possible, it can be family, whatever that is. And that adds in another level of stress. And then on top of it, you're dealing with your own internal stress while trying to manage how can I collaborate with a person next to me? Oh, and we both have this same specific goal, but you know what your friend actually, his tendency might be, you know, this goal is important to him, but he's all right missing every other day. Like he was gonna say, oh, I don't wanna miss every other day, but he's all right and his head missing every, every other day. Or you might be like, if I miss every other day, like I'm unsuccessful. And that's the thing as a coach I have to accept is that some people I work with are okay going through an entire plan with me and being 60, 70% consistent. And that frustrates me because I'm like, I would never live my life that way. Like I could never be okay with that. I would, I would just not be that way. The same way at all

Vance Crowe [00:43:43] Way. Yeah, exactly. But the truth of it

Mark Spewak [00:43:45] Is that without you maybe, without you training with your buddy, that person might be 20% consistent. So I think that's where you have to kind of, even going back to your goals question, you kinda have to measure where somebody's at. And you can never assume that other people are gonna change in the sense that, or they're gonna be the same as you. But can you inspire somebody to do this more? At the end of the day, we're looking to get people to run more because we want people to be healthy. We want people to exercise for a longer period of time so that your employer doesn't have to pay as much in health insurance, you want it from the factor of we want our society be healthier, we want to have more positive people. We know there's studies behind more exercise, better behavior, just in all areas of like work productivity, just to mental wellbeing, all these different things. And so at the end of the day, if you can trick somebody like with your friend to being 70% consistent when they might have only been 10 or 20%, that's incredible. And think about the impact that you made on that person's life. And here's the deal, that person might never be super consistent, but there's somebody like you who's watching that person and they're thinking, man, I probably could do that. Like I could probably do that. And they bring it and then now you've just impacted somebody else. People find me as a coach because they watch their friend guys. It makes me laugh with guys, guys do not ask for help. Guys are like, yeah, they, you know, I don't need to running coach all these different kind of things. And I get guys after they watch their friends do it 'cause they see their friend do it and they're like, oh yeah, I need a running coach. Where like, they won't admit it, but like they, if they just asked initially for help, you know, right off the bat they'd be running just as well as their buddy.

Mark Spewak [00:45:18] But it has to come to me and my buddies kicking my butt and now I'm gonna finally accept the fact that yeah, I could probably use a little extra help.

Vance Crowe [00:45:25] I mean I, I would've deeply discounted the value of a coach had I not had a personal trainer. And I got a personal trainer when I was, I was like 250 pounds, I, I weighed a lot more and I had joined a gym and they give you this like free trainer, right, for like two sessions. And I remember saying to him, and God, I'm so embarrassed of it now, I remember saying to him, I don't care what exercises we do, I just don't want to get on the ground so we can't do any exercises on the ground. I was like 30 years old and I was refusing to get on the ground. And then you realize like by having this person that you would see regularly and they would say, Hey, this is where I want you to try and get to. I think you can. And having another person being like, I think you can. And accepting, you know, when I think a lot of things, a lot of times guys, I don't know if women do this, when you start running, you're like, Hey, I'm gonna go out and run 10 miles today and then you go out and get injured or you do too much or it doesn't work. And so by having that consistent progress, then all of a sudden you're getting up and down on the ground and doing all kinds of crazy stuff, but you didn't even realize that's where you were headed.

Mark Spewak [00:46:34] Yeah, no that's, that's a, that's a great point and I think, well congratulations on your journey because I think that's amazing for you to take control of your life and then be able to create such positive habits that you've been so consistent since. That's amazing. And I think when it comes to personal training, like I'm sure when your trainer heard that you didn't wanna get on the ground, it probably infuriated him. He probably thought in his head, but he probably also knew, oh yeah, he'll be on the ground in six months or three months, but it'll be on vance's time. And I think that's the big thing is when somebody tells me, I'll use the example of rain, okay, people hate running in the rain. I had an athlete say this to me the other day. He's like, man, he, we did a workout together in the rain, need an awesome workout. And he said afterwards, yeah, I would never have a year ago done this in the rain, but now that he's listened to me, I'm, I would've been. And I said to him, man, you got a lot nicer version of me a year ago about rain runs than you do now. And the truth of it is that you know, like on race day you, you cannot control the weather forecast. So if it's safe and it's not lightning outside, get your your butt out the door, but how is that message gonna be, you know, delivered to that person. And so if they've never run in the rain their entire life and they're worried about all these different things, I'm not gonna come at it on day one and be like, stop being such a wuss and get out the door and you know, run in the rain. You're gonna say Okay, here are the advantages of why we get on a door light today. So you missed today, not the end of the world, but let's try for the next day and then two years down the road, it's no exception. But with you now I'm sure you doing ground exercises, you doing these different things like you got to that point because you built trust and why would you on first day the one thing that probably scared you the most, why would you just jump right into the water and expect to be able to swim there if you had no trust in the person next to you?

Mark Spewak [00:48:10] I mean it's just like, you know the analogy of like jumping out of a plane, you know you're gonna do it for somebody who you know is gonna be able to hold, hold you accountable, be able to help you in that process. And I think that's the same thing when it comes to training is that why would you expect to change something that is so fearful in yourself and like something that you do not want to do on day one if you don't have trust in the process and trust in what you're doing. But I promise you that in a couple months if you trust that person and you're very consistent with it, you're gonna do things. I'm sure you did things with your training that you probably never thought you'd ever be able to do.

Vance Crowe [00:48:41] Oh yeah. It's

Mark Spewak [00:48:42] Like I know the, well did you think like I know the idea of having a trainer is gonna help me, you know, theoretically, but you probably didn't at that moment, like didn't have the success yet to be able to say, I know this is definitively what was gonna happen.

Vance Crowe [00:48:54] Yeah and I think that there's just things that you, like I thought I knew, right? I had played football, I had lifted in high school and so I was like, ah, what's there to know? You take the the bar and you go up and down and you put more weights on it and you just keep going. And I had no idea how much more there was to know, to your point about running in the rain, I had developed when I had that 500 miles because if I didn't run today than I was gonna have to run more tomorrow in order to be able to make it all work. So for me, I had to have some sort of a mindset and I got to the point where I was like praying for miserable weather because then you only see other people out when you're running that are also, there's like some special bond when it's five 30 in the morning and it's pouring down rain, it's like 40 degrees out and you see another person and you're like, I see you, you see me, that's all I need. It's like some form of fulfillment and gratification. So I mean it's, I don't, I'm not praying for a cold rain, but I do definitely try. I found a way to embrace it.

Mark Spewak [00:49:54] Yeah, there's unity in it and I, I love that. I, I think that's, that's something that like is so fun when you learn how to push yourself and you learn how to do this and it becomes your lifestyle, you don't even think about it. Like you don't even think it is not even a thought like yeah of course I'm getting out the door today. But to your point you're like okay, it's gonna be a little bit harder today 'cause it's raining, you know, I don't want this but there's no like, you're gonna get out there no matter what and then you see somebody else doing it and you appreciate that and Strava, I don't know, do you use STR at all or heard of it?

Vance Crowe [00:50:22] I know of it but I don't use it. Yeah. So

Mark Spewak [00:50:24] Strava's become kind of, I would say the social media of fitness, you know, for biking, swimming and running and so much blown up in the last couple years. But Strava is one of these, you know, apps that like you can see all the people in your area who are doing these different types of workouts and it's so funny on a day that it's like, you know, 10 degrees outside and it's snowing. Like if I jump on a treadmill and I see that like 2030 other people on my feed get outside for a run, I feel like the biggest loser. I'm like, are you serious? Like did you just go on a treadmill on a day like today when the weather, like when 20 other people who are clearly capable of getting out there running your same roots, we're out there. And it's to your point, it's like you're missing out. Like you want to be in that experience where you can see that person and like have that moment of like nodding. But it's, it's, I think that's the joy of what we get to do. Is that like when you played football and you were in the trenches, like wasn't there that unity with your brothers because like you were doing something that was so hard that you guys felt like, yeah, we're together in this,

Vance Crowe [00:51:19] Unity is a really powerful word that's that that describes something very precisely that I would not have imagined. So if people are listening and they say, I wanna be a part of this unity thing, I wanna start running, what is the path that you help people get on that go from I'm overweight, I, I don't even own a pair of running shoes, how do I get started?

Mark Spewak [00:51:41] Yeah, that's a great question. I always tell people from the start, you know, start as simple as go to your local running store, which a running specialty store where they're actually gonna be able to fit you for the right kind of shoe. They're gonna take you through a process, they're gonna watch you walk, they're gonna see you run. How you move is how like it's going to, you know, you're gonna be put in the best kind of shoe. And so if you don't have the right gear, it's like, it's like basically if like if you're, you know, trying to swim but you don't have swim trunks, you know, it's like if you're gonna run, you need the right equipment for it but you need the right kind of equipment that fits and the right kind of equipment that's gonna keep you away from seeing, you know, Annie right off the bat maybe. So I think that that's the important part from the beginning is go somewhere like a running specialty store, get yourself fitted and then from there find maybe there's a club, find something where you can start very small, very simple. So there's couch to 5K programs online. There are, you know, groups in St. Louis that do these kind of, they call 'em start five Ks and all these different kind of things. So find a way to to get yourself out there, you know, do it in a healthy and happy way. And if that's finding services like what we do, that's great and if it's finding somebody else and finding a group or just starting small on a phone app, that's awesome too. And then once you've kind of gone through that process and you build some confidence, then that's kinda the next step for a lot of people. They're like, okay, I've done this, what do I wanna do next? Well a lot of people think, okay, I'm gonna go from 5K to half marathon and I'm always like, nope, nope, nope. How about you try to get a little bit faster at the 5K first and consistently run a little bit more and then when you move up to the 10 K you have the mileage under your belt to be able to go run a 10 k.

Mark Spewak [00:53:16] You know? And so it's about really having a smart progression and if you can do it in the sense of like the 15% rule where you're going very, very small, short, kind of, you know, not overloading it, then by the time you get to each step, yeah is it gonna get harder? But it's not gonna be in your head like this is so difficult because you're gonna be ready for the next jump. And where people struggle with running is that they try to take these big jumps too fast too soon. And so at first those first couple jumps from 5K half a marathon might not be too aggressive, but that person then might try to go run a marathon in that first year and now that jump has just gone up exponentially higher and now they're injured. And so I think that's the big thing from the start is just finding yourself a routine that you know is gonna keep you healthy, happy in the process, find the unity, find the groups, people who are gonna empower you in that process. And let's say you've never run before, don't even think about running it at the start. Think of it, this is your fitness journey so maybe you walk a couch to 5K program instead of running it, maybe the first thing you tell yourself is like, you have no exercise at all. I'm just gonna get myself up to the point where I can walk three miles a day, you know, and then go from there. So I think it doesn't have to be one specific thing, but finding a way to have a really positive experience with it so that way as you progress you want more opposed to want less. And then I think people find a running coach, somebody like myself a lot of times in those situations, but a lot of times after they build that confidence in themselves and they realize okay, I can't do a lot of these things and just expect to get better at this point now I need a little bit more guidance.

Vance Crowe [00:54:48] Yeah. So one of the questions that I ask people, and it usually is around a political concept, but since you're so deep in, in running and coaching, I think I'll be really interested to hear your answer. It's called the Peter Teal paradox. So the Peter Teal paradox is, what is one thing that you think is true that almost no one agrees with you on? And the reason it's a paradox is because if you say something people already agree with you on, then you failed. And if you say something that you, that people don't agree with you on and now you've gotta talk your way out of it, you've gotta convince us. So as a running coach or as a person, something to do with sports, what is your Peter Teel paradox?

Mark Spewak [00:55:27] Every human being, if they've been born, you know, with, you know, I would say, you know, the fortune of having, you know, a healthy body and you know, being able to walk, being able to, you know, have, you know, full use of their legs, all those different things. I really believe if those circumstances are line up, every human has the ability to consistently train in some type of exercise. So that doesn't have to necessarily be running, I don't think every single person can run. But I believe that there is an exercise out there and every human has what it takes to have consistency in that. It's just gonna take obviously, you know like we, I use this in like running, I actually have one specifically in running and I don't know if it'll resonate with anybody that listens, but if you are a runner and you're listening to this, it might resonate. I've said this to somebody the other day. I said on a high school cross country team, if like you ran a ton of miles at like every single person on the team, which isn't advisable 'cause you just overtrain the kids and it's, some programs do this like in, you know like some of the best schools in the country will like run, they'll have like a hundred kids on the team, like the bigger schools and they'll just see who can survive. But they have a very successful program now, long term it leads to injuries, it's not sustainable, those athletes don't develop in college. But to my point is you see a lot of fast times. And the one time I believe that like every single cross high school cross country kid can get to if they run high miles and they're consistent for long enough is that I really believe that most like 99% can run six minute pace for 5K, which is 1830, like six to six 10 I would say like 1830 to 19 low 5K, I think everybody's capable of that.

Mark Spewak [00:57:08] I really believe, I have no scientific backing of this, but I believe that like from what I've seen with the running with the mileage, all these different things, I've seen people who've worked their tails off, they have zero ounce of talent, you just see it. But they can run an 1830 and that's where it's at. And that's a respectful, if you think about that's, so that's why I've always kind of felt like if you run, the human body is capable of six minute miles for three miles, it just, for some people that is gonna be, they do that on week one and they're allowed of talented and for other people that's years and years grinding for it. But that's one of the things I would say is specifically a running that I think is true to a t.

Vance Crowe [00:57:43] So Mark, tell us about your coaching program. Like how do people get involved? Who does it?

Mark Spewak [00:57:49] Yeah, yeah. So it's called Spewak training and we are personal coaches for, for running specific. We do walk, we do work with some walkers, people who like have more fitness goals to themselves. We have a dietician that works with us as well. We have three, three coaches on staff and then as well as a dietician. And then myself obviously being the head coach, our programs just really vary from person to person. So we have different types of services that kind of all option for people that you know, might need specifically more hands-on instruction where it's like actually in person or need more communication or some people just find us and they just need a specific plan. So, so much of what we do is very based on the individual. My philosophy with everything has always been that we're not training professional athletes, we're training professional humans. So we have to do whatever it takes to make sure that this training fits these individuals lives and that we're factoring all the things that they're going through to make sure that they're healthy, happy in the process. Because we don't wanna see anybody cross the finish line. And let's just say for you example, you meet your 500 miles and then you think to yourself, there's no way I could ever do that again. Or that wasn't worth it. If that's a thought that you had, even if you were successful then we were unsuccessful. So that's so much of our, our coaching now. We do like in-person things like we have group events pre COVID, we had group runs, you know, meetups for different workouts. We do social, you know, events in terms of, you know, parties, you know, happy hours, all these different fun things to kind of cultivate that team culture. And I think what I'm most proud of, of our team is that we've built on really positive people.

Mark Spewak [00:59:24] So we're heading into our fifth year birthday in November. And what I've seen the most out is every year we just add more positive people. And I really believe that's because the culture's so positive that those people that work with us, they're positive, they meet other people, they bring their friends in and that's just how we continue to grow it. So it's just a really positive group of people who are dedicated to bettering themselves. People think when they need a running coach, oh you only work with people who are competitive. The only people who are super fast reality is that if these people are running fast, it's because they've worked really hard for it. They started off in your shoes, so give yourself a chance to go get a running coach because you could actually be that person. And there, there's tons of testimonials on my website that will speak that as those people didn't think they, they, they always write that line. It's like, I never thought I could do this. And that's what most people think, but they don't wanna reach out 'cause they're afraid. They're like, oh I can't do that because that person did it. So, so much of what we do is just trying to help people's dreams become a reality. I know that's cliche, but really help somebody get to another place. And I think a lot of people find coaching services when they're at a plateau in their training or they're just kind of stuck in a mental fatigue. And so more than anything, just that change of environment and having positive influence from professional coaches who understand what you're going through the day to day is very beneficial.

Vance Crowe [01:00:39] Well Mark sp walk of speed walk training, it has been a pleasure man. I have really enjoyed this conversation and we went into some wild places. I did not imagine. So thanks for coming on man. Yeah,

Mark Spewak [01:00:49] Thanks so much for having me. It's awesome to be on the podcast and I just appreciate the opportunity.

Vance Crowe [01:00:55] We'll have you on again, mark.

Mark Spewak [01:00:57] Awesome. Take care.