Australia's Mouse Plague: Mice Biting Babies, $400K Farm Losses, and COVID Lockdown Failures

Lucy Thackray [00:00:00] And I, I can't explain how it started, but we had, because it is quite normal to have mice in Australia. A few years ago I was living in a house and I had them all through my bedroom and everywhere and I just, I, I could not handle it. I, and just the way that they're all through your food and they're through everything and you can't escape it and it's, yeah, it's a really awful problem to have. Howdy. I'm Hannah Newenschwander, a production lead at a soybean seed facility in central Illinois and you're listening to the Vance Crow podcast.

Vance Crowe [00:00:31] Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Buckle up today because I just did an interview with Lucy Thackray who is a reporter in rural Australia where they are facing a massive mice plague. And when I first heard about this on Twitter, when I went out and said, Hey, I'm thinking about doing some ag podcasts, I'd really like to get your input. What are some of the big issues going on? This came up and so I started watching some videos and probably like you are right now, I had a bit of a smirk on my face and I was kinda like, well that'd be gross, but they're mice. But to hear Lucy describe what is going on in Australia, it will shock and probably appall you. But it is so worth listening to because Lucy is an excellent reporter that does a great job of explaining how did this happen? What are the consequences of this happening and what in the world all the are the Australians going to do to try and solve this problem? So buckle in for this interview. It is absolutely fantastic. We are in the middle of this ag series and we're trying to record these because I'm gonna be heading out on the road in July and August back now that COVID has allowed us to get together. Again, I'm doing lots of public speaking. If you have a group and you would like me to come in and talk about how culture is changing and where you can find opportunities there, if you've had conflict and you want to teach your people how to get past that conflict or to be able to work with your critics or even think about things like succession planning, go to vance crow.com and see if working with me would work well for you and your group.

Vance Crowe [00:02:13] Also, I've been doing Legacy Interviews. These have been something that listeners of the podcast have found to be a very interesting opportunity. So if you have a loved one or a child, a grandparent, somebody that you would like to hear their stories and their perspectives and have it captured, but you know that if you do it, it won't be quite the same because they know you and they won't always answer your questions in the same way. Then you can go to store dot Articulate Ventures and hire me to do an interview with your loved one. We can either do it over Zoom or they can come if they're in St. Louis to my studio and we can record one in person. These have been some of the best work I've ever done in my life. I hear back from people that have done it it that it is a prized possession in their family and I love working on it. So if you've been thinking about doing this, go ahead and head to store Articulate Ventures and see if we can do a legacy interview for one of your loved ones. Alright, now without further ado, we're gonna go to Lucy Thackray on her story about the giant Mice Plague in Australia. Lucy Thackray, welcome to the podcast.

Lucy Thackray [00:03:27] Thank you so much for having me.

Vance Crowe [00:03:29] So everybody can tell from your unique accent that you're in Australia. The reason I invited you on the podcast is because I've been doing an ag series and when I asked about what topics are going on in ag right now, I got pinged a bunch of times about a mice infestation going on in Australia. And so once I got that note I was like, well who can talk to me about that? And your name got brought up by my man John Droppers. So I was very interested to to talk with you. So what in the world is going on in Australia right now with mice?

Lucy Thackray [00:04:03] Well, basically, I mean firstly I find myself in this position because they're calling me the reluctant rodent reporter because I actually started out, it's improved a lot with a huge phobia of mice and I think it was that way that I was so fixated with mice because the whole concept of millions of them running around absolutely petrifies me, which means I've been able to keep right across the issue because I just can't stop thinking about what's going on. But basically what ha is happening at the moment is back in October this mass plague started, it started because we went through an intense drought which lasted the worst drought in living memory, which lasted for about four years. And there was a huge death of a lot of predators, your normal mass predators. But then when the drought ended, it was like a switch flick and all of a sudden just it started to rain. So people went from no crops and you know, absolutely barren landscapes with you know, no rain whatsoever to the best season that many people have had in a lifetime. So that huge switch has actually created perfect mass plate conditions 'cause there's no predators, there's all this food around and I've come to learn that Macer is such a resilient species that just can survive anything now. So they're running around in their millions and it's been going on now obviously since October. So going on almost 10 months and it's just getting worse and worse. There's no end in sight.

Lucy Thackray [00:05:35] They've, from that one good year, they have done so much damage. They've eaten through hay, they've eaten through some of the grain, they're ruining people's cars, they're biting people while they sleep. And what's gotten people's attention is all of those insane videos just of roads blanketed in mice and then when you drive at night, they come out and it, it's just this sea of mice in white and it sounds like bubble wrap when you drive over just this pop, pop, pop and all the next, it's just white everywhere or people, you know, their sheds just millions and millions of them running out into, you know, drums, they've got drums set up and just trying to catch them and people over a thousand a night. So yeah, it's just been an absolutely horrific experience. So, so far and it's not showing any signs of improving

Vance Crowe [00:06:30] When, when this first got brought up I kind of chuckled about it and then I saw some of those videos like I saw where a guy had poisoned a mice and then as he's walking through his barn, they're everywhere. Like you literally could not walk without stepping on them. And I started to be like, this is actually a nightmare. This is actually like a version of hell that somebody could live in. And so if you have a phobia of it, that would make it even a hundred times worse. So how did it even like start, when did you start noticing like, hey there seemed to be quite a few mice running around here.

Lucy Thackray [00:07:07] So there's such a big difference between a normal year and the mice that you would expect and the fact when they're just infesting everything, you know, running around your house, people have mouse problems in their cars so they're having to trap their cars, you know, expensive machinery with you know, almost a million dollars just being absolutely ruined by mice eating through the wiring chicken in chicken coops, their feet being eaten by mice or people reporting, seeing lizards lying in the sun and then mice coming along and picking them up and taking them away. It's just unbelievable the scope of the damage that they can do. Just things that you would never expect. So it, it really began to become noticeable as a worse, you know, a worse problem than we would normally expect maybe in January because normally our summer's here. So I'm in New South Wales, which is on, you know, it's an eastern state in Australia, but I'm in the central part. So what we see here is kind of those desert type temperatures where you have a huge swing from, you know, about a 50 degree Celsius swing. So I'm not sure what that is in Fahrenheit, but a big swing from, you know, freezing to very, very hot. So 45 degrees Fahrenheit, which I think is quite similar to what people are seeing, you know, in some parts of America at the moment, just, you know, that sweltering heat. But we had this mild summer where it wasn't nearly as hot as you would normally expect.

Lucy Thackray [00:08:38] So instead of my stopping breeding, they continued to breed through a mild summer and then they had a really humid autumn and they love humid conditions and so they kept breeding and then they're even breeding up until the beginning of June, which is our winter. So normally they'd have stopped in November, which is the end of spring. And I mean when they breed, as soon as a mouse gives birth it can get pregnant again and they just, these mouse numbers explode. It's so huge. So they can't actually, when people ask how many mice are they, they say in the millions easily, but one you can't count because I don't know why they say breeding like rabbits, well I do, but they should say breeding like mice because it's just on a whole other level. But then as well, you don't see them all the time. So a lot of the time they're hiding in burrows or they're in the walls of houses or they're inside hay bales. So although some people might be thinking or hoping that, you know, the cold weather, there's, it's pouring right now outside and it, we've had some snow but even that won't end a mouse plague because they protect themselves. You know, they're 60 centimeters under the ground in deep in burrows and they're protected from floods, which we've had didn't do it. Snow, rain and yeah, anything.

Vance Crowe [00:09:56] And so like when you say like where you're from, are you living in the countryside or are you just like out in a rural area and this is just like something farmers deal with?

Lucy Thackray [00:10:07] So it's definitely not just farmers unfortunately. I mean they definitely have it worse. I live in next to what they call the grain belt. So it's an area that just the landscape's great for growing grain and so it's literally like a belt across. And that grain belt is where this problem started and where it's most intense, but then it's proceeded to move north to other states south. And we are even seeing it move west as well. So although they say that it's not actually mice leaving one location to the next, but you see those conditions kind of replicated or they, they breed and they move. So I'm in town and it's definitely not nearly as bad as in some of those farmhouses, but the problem is particularly in, in communities as well, so shops, grocery stores, you're saying grocery stores lose thousands and thousands of dollars because supermarkets, you know, you walk in and firstly it's that stench of of dead things and mouse urine. So kind of smells like a really bad public transport, you know, station or a really, do you know what that smell? But then I've seen particularly in the worst supermarket, like the most affected supermarket, just mice running in and out of food, they're running across the aisles. They, you know, they've had to put food all in containers and then big buckets of water under bread stands because, and people are putting their baby's cots in buckets of water.

Lucy Thackray [00:11:44] We've got stories of people who have gone in and there's a mouse next to their baby and their baby's bleeding. So that was one of the more severe kind of things. But you know, people bitten in their sleep. My friend went into her baby and there was mouse poo next to him in his cot. Just some really horrific things where it's not just farmers in that agriculture side of things, but the mental health of people when you know, people are, that tourist come into a cafe and then mice run around so the tourists screams, makes a fuss and leaves. And that's so difficult for cafe owners who were trying to make money after drought and COVID to now have a mouse plague, you know, affect those food related businesses,

Vance Crowe [00:12:25] The child ones. That was crazy. In fact, that's actually when I stopped. 'cause at first I was kind of, I mean like to hear that it's mice not rats, right? If you think about large rats, you're like, oh that's disgusting. They have these terrible teeth, you know, I don't want anything to do with that. But mice you're like, ah, I don't know, I see a mice, I usually catch it in my trap or I stomp it with my boot. But when I saw a little child and they had bite marks around their hairline and they were clearly bleeding. Yeah. And it, and it definitely looked like the, the bite marks of just like a little tiny rodent that was like, okay, I gotta quit looking at this 'cause this is turning my stomach. That was like, and to not be able to get away from it, right? Because what have people been trying to do to be able to stop these mice because like poison only works up to some level and how, how, what are people responding with?

Lucy Thackray [00:13:18] And I mean it's children and older people really impacted. So there have been stories about people in nursing homes being bitten because obviously they're quite, you know, they're not moving around as much so they're just a sitting duck for mice. And there've been people in hospital with a disease called lepto sclerosis and different types of blood diseases like sepsis. And that's not only from being bitten, but just coming into contact with mouse urine is so damaging and so difficult so to, to manage because you know, they, they're everywhere so you can clean and clean but just the, the traces of of urine or feces or just it just a running past, it's, it's a huge thing to manage. So lots of people have been unwell, but I mean managing it so it's been so difficult. It's kind of like with how people go mad for toilet paper during COVID baits have been so difficult to get because you just, you go into any store and all the baits and traps are off the shelves. So people have also been getting quite innovative because there are so many and you have traps that only catch one at a time. That there are all these systems with buckets and beer bottles and cheese and water and you know, flipping lids and all kinds of things to, to be able to catch bulk mice. And that's where you see people catching, you know, a thousand a night, which is pretty unbelievable. But I've also had people say that this impacts their mental health so much and someone said she was so over catching and either killing or dealing with the mouse problem that she just one day set them.

Lucy Thackray [00:15:02] She said she wished them well, which didn't make any sense to her considering you have to catch them. But she said I just couldn't deal with death that day. It was just, she just couldn't do it because it's been, you know, 10 months of it. It's just awful.

Vance Crowe [00:15:16] Yeah, I had watched a video where a guy was getting some heat on social media for I think burning him in a barrel and he was like, well if you have another way to do this, I'm more than happy to use your way but I've got to kill these mice. They're everywhere.

Lucy Thackray [00:15:32] Peter, the organization Peter got some heat as well because they said why aren't people catching and releasing these mice? Why

Vance Crowe [00:15:43] Killing

Lucy Thackray [00:15:44] Mice? And so there was a movement of farmers that wanted to catch them and put them in the mail and send them to people from Peter. So obviously that went down as

Vance Crowe [00:15:53] Well,

Lucy Thackray [00:15:54] Could be expected. And you know, lots of calls for, because it, it's not just Peter, there are quite a few people saying this is really inhumane and why are they killing so many animals? You know, they're just part of the ecosystem too. But it has to be seen to be believed and what it's doing just to entire ecosystems, when it's in this state of flux, it'll, it's just doing so much damage. And the problem is, so breeding has slowed down at this point 'cause of winter, luckily it finally slowed down. Like I mentioned it just kept on going. But in a few months spring, it's spring and that's when breeding ramps up and they're warning that if this isn't controlled or if we don't actually see a significant decrease in mouse numbers, it's all gonna get so much worse because spring will roll around and they're starting from a higher base. So this problem's gonna get worse than it even was before.

Vance Crowe [00:16:49] So what is the historical like precedent for this? Do you have stories that you're able to go back to in the history books and be like, this happened before and this is how they handled it?

Lucy Thackray [00:17:00] Yeah, this is compared to the Great Mouse Plague of 1984. But people have now started to say that this is worse and it's also lasted longer than that one. But during the 1984 mouse plague, there's some old vision of a guy walking around with a flame thrower and the mouse, the, the, the floor was just carpeted in mice and you couldn't see anything else. And he was using a flamethrower to try and control them, which isn't being used this time. That's heavily frowned upon. It looked like that scene from once upon a time in Hollywood it was

Vance Crowe [00:17:34] Pretty

Lucy Thackray [00:17:35] Awful. But what we've heard about mouse plagues in the past is they end with disease. So it's not the cold or the rain like people keep saying, but it's, it's disease and they actually end quite quickly. And experts have said to me, they've actually had farmers call and say my mice have disappeared, they were here yesterday and now they're, you know, where have my mice gone? So a lot of the time they die in their boroughs or you know, something happens that comes through and just completely wipes them out. So the state government of the state that I live in New South Wales, they're working on research with scientists for a biological control. So they're saying it won't help help this mouse plague, but hopefully for future mouse plagues something can be done to either stop them breeding. Peter also suggested that people should be spreading contraceptives for mice rather than poison. So that went down as, as well as can be expected as well. But actually looking at what we can do to on a biological level, stop a mouse plague if that's spreading a disease or doing something to stop them. But at this point there's very little, they actually looked the state government at introducing a poison called brodi at the moment people have been using zinc phosphide on an agricultural level around their crops. And already, despite using zinc phosphide extensively, lots of people have already reported, you know, huge crop losses. So it's July now.

Lucy Thackray [00:19:06] People sowed in around April, may and you know, within a month or two, just as soon as it germinated, even if they'd reported seeing less mice around, they appeared when a crop came through. So whether they came out from pasture paddocks or if they came out from, you know, underground that they came up and they've already ruined for some people 100% crop losses. And that's even with aerial baking and zinc phosphide being spread, you know, multiple times. That's just, it hasn't done the work. So bro island was suggested there was an urgent application put forward to the poisons authority by the government. And what was surprising to the government was most people actually said, we don't want this poison because it's got a high secondary killing rate. Whereas zinc phosphide turns into a gas and then the mouse isn't dangerous or, or as dangerous for other animals that then eat them brood dione basically would turn the mice that eat it into a moving or or dead, another poison, another bait. So there are really high killing rates and that could be for wildlife. And we know that going through the drought there's been so much death and decimation of lots of native wildlife species that could be for birds. We've seen so many owls around at the moment and lots of birds that could then suffer from eating, you know, eating mice.

Lucy Thackray [00:20:39] But even fish, there's been some absolutely incredible videos of native fish. We've got native fish called Murray Cod and they've got mice in their stomachs because mice are actually a really big part of their diet, which I never knew and has definitely changed my approach to eating fish. But they mice can tread water for 10 to 12 hours, they can swim through a river and they've been eaten by fish. And the worry from people was what if we introduce this new really POIs poisonous toxin into the environment. The, the minister who suggested it described it as napalm for mice. What if we introduce that and then we see decimated species, whether it's in the air, on the ground or in the water.

Vance Crowe [00:21:28] So you're a reporter is is, are you so up on these issues because of your work or is everyone around you now become a mouse expert because it's so prevalent?

Lucy Thackray [00:21:40] Yeah, I mean even people in the cities have been very focused on this too because it's, the scale of it is just amazing people's stories, the fact that they, you know, kids' uniforms have been eaten, you know, they've gone to dress their kids for for school and there's just big holes. It's just, it's, it's on every single level. So it has also been very interesting that people have been so engaged on it, on an ecological level as well and wanting to know if we introduce poisons to try and get rid of mice, what does that do to the rest of the food chain if we introduce it and then you eat the fish that's eaten the mouse, it's like what does that do? What, what are the risks? So lots of people have been engaged and wanting to know the solution but also knowing that there's no silver bullet to stop or fix a mouse plague.

Vance Crowe [00:22:32] And are people getting along better during this, like as in like, hey, we're all in this together, or do you see this being a divisive issue where people are really torn about how to handle it or how big the problem is?

Lucy Thackray [00:22:46] I think it's like any other stressful situation where, I mean we've gone through a drought and then COVID and then this and for a lot of people this is going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back because you know, you struggle with your business whether it's an agricultural business or a business in town. 'cause we know that farmers are struggling then the businesses in town are struggling. Just this is like what next? This is just this another thing that people have to deal with. So there are definitely some people that were saying, I know that this, that this poison could do a lot of damage to the environment, but we just, we're desperate. We're absolutely desperate and we need something and there's nothing strong enough. So people are mostly quite united. But there is definitely, for a lot of people that real sense of desperation, there's the mental health impacts of not being able to escape it. You know, it's during the day, it's you go shopping, you try to go to sleep, you go to the kitchen and there's mouse poo through all your pots and pans, all your food's been eaten, there's a mouse,

Vance Crowe [00:23:51] This is happening for you. You are dealing with this too in your own house.

Lucy Thackray [00:23:55] My house is much better now, but it started off so I, I had a big issue and lots of the time. So winter you don't see them as much like I mentioned. And that's even in your houses 'cause they go in for warm dry areas and luckily we're having quite a wet winter, which just means that you're not seeing them as much. But they were, they were running around. I mean I was doing an interview with Irish radio and I yelled in the mid middle of it 'cause a mouse ran out. But I started off with this phobia where I'd sweat and just my hands would shake and I

Vance Crowe [00:24:27] Oh, you legit had a phobia about it.

Lucy Thackray [00:24:29] Oh, absolutely. But then it's, it's just this complete immersion in them. I mean, I mean I, I had to film them at one point because I'm a video journalist and I was trying to film them and in that supermarket where they were running around because I kept screaming and throwing the camera off and I had a little crowd of people watching me because they thought I was so funny. But it has improved because I hear them scratching up my bed head now sometimes. And you scroll over and go back to sleep because you just, you know, but, or you're lying in bed and you hear a snap of the trap or you hear them running around in a plastic trap and yeah, so it, it's pretty awful. And I, but I particularly feel for my friends with children because you know, and there's poison around and there's, so in Australia there is a national shortage of the antidote for dogs and pets that have eaten mouse baits because there's so much that have already been used because all these animals have been poisoned. So yeah, it's just an absolutely devastating situation.

Vance Crowe [00:25:37] So we just jumped straight into this interview. I didn't even really let you introduce yourself at all. Talk a little bit about like what do you do, you're a journalist, you work in New South Wales, which apparently is in Eastern, is it Providence, provinces? You have provinces in

Lucy Thackray [00:25:53] We have States.

Vance Crowe [00:25:54] States. Okay. So tell tell just kinda give a background on who you are and you know, how, how you got into the world of journalism.

Lucy Thackray [00:26:03] Yeah, so I, I grew up on the coast and went to boarding school and all my best friends were from the country. So I travel out to the country and just always have the best time. I was interviewing people from when I was five years old, you know, on a road trip with my grandparents and asking them, what's your favorite color, what's your favorite animal? So it was always gonna happen. I was working in the city and loving it and it was fantastic. But I then would come out to the country and just felt this real affinity with it. I just, I loved coming out here and also there are so many issues that don't get coverage. So I work with the national broadcaster in regional New South Wales and it brings a unique perspective as well because I work in the rural space and it, it is interesting because with things like mice, you know, people have been catching mice for pocket money since they were, you know, five years old. And I, I had a phobia so that was interesting to try and get my head around when they thought that I was such a suck about it. But yeah, it's fantastic. I absolutely love it. And working, I mean, going through a drought and then seeing us go from the worst drought and living memory to the best crop that people had ever had has just been incredible. But now this mouse plague, I mean it's never boring, it's just been the most unbelievable few years for Australian farmers.

Vance Crowe [00:27:33] So most people, if they have a phobia they, you know, navigate their lives so they don't ever have to face it. What have you learned about fear in yourself with having to be so up close with the, with the phobia?

Lucy Thackray [00:27:47] Like I said, I think it was that fixation with the issue where I just, my brain, I could not think about anything but this worsening mouse plague because it was just, and I, I can't explain how it started, but we hadn't because it is quite normal to have mice in Australia. A few years ago I was living in a house and I had them all through my bedroom and everywhere and I just, I I could not handle it. I, and just the way that they're all through your food and they're through everything and you can't escape it and it's, yeah, it's a really awful problem to have. But being with it now, I mean it, there's been a lot of of growth that we were trying to film a TV story and 'cause it was really cold that night. They weren't coming out and it was shaking this hay bale to get the mice to run out and they were running over our feet and everything. And it is amazing how much you can, you can grow and, and learn without it. But I think part of that was understanding that for a lot of people, this wasn't funny. This was their livelihoods. This was, you know, their homes, they couldn't escape it. Or if you go to a cafe or a restaurant and mice run around, you can't scream and have a go because that's, you know, people have made that food, they're trying to make a living and they're losing so much money and their businesses are struggling. So I think it was kind of getting over myself a little abuse and thinking about other people and sure it petrifies me, but it's a very real thing for people that are losing. I mean, people have spent up to $400,000 on baits for their farms alone and they're losing so much money too.

Lucy Thackray [00:29:25] So it's about getting over myself.

Vance Crowe [00:29:29] Yeah, I mean I, when you bring up that thing about a store or a restaurant, you know, like seeing a little mouse and if one person can just kind of get over it, then yeah, it's not great. But if, if it's, if somebody starts screaming, that really changes the whole tenor of what everybody else has going on. It, it hadn't even crossed my mind. And now I'm a little bit embarrassed that I was laughing because the, the mice concept of that being a mice plague, I mean mice seem like that's like having, you know, a Disney plague or something, right? Because we always see mice as these like, ah, you know, they're fast and they're a little bit creepy, but they're not like a plague.

Lucy Thackray [00:30:09] And yeah, they're just a dirty too. Like they're just, there's, I mean there's this video a shed of a man's caravan and he went away for two weeks and he locked his caravan up, which normally is out the back of his house, but he locked it up and he takes the donnar off the bed and all these mice run out. But not only mice is we and poo and all kinds of things. Like it's just this, it's just so dirty. And when you're wanting to have your space clean and you know that there are health issues, it's, it's a really, really nasty thing. But just the fact that people are needing to kill them clean, do all of these things, lose their money and it's been going for 10 months and you know, they're wanting it could go on for two years. Like it's just no way to live. It's really, really nasty. And the fact that there is no, like I said, no silver bullet, it really gets to people

Vance Crowe [00:31:03] Well and so I, I had some friends from Dairy Australia and they were telling me just about how COVID had impacted Australia and you guys haven't had the influx of vaccines. So when, when you start to see a spike going up of COVID, you guys are back into shelter in in place. Didn't you just say a little while, like before we got started that you guys were starting to have like go go back into your homes?

Lucy Thackray [00:31:29] Yeah, so we were doing really well. I mean America and Europe and so many places were really struggling with it and we were managing to get down to zero cases and that was because there were hard lockdowns that were happening, you know, even with just a couple of cases things would go into a hard lockdown. And then we've had Pfizer for people that are over 40, but then AstraZeneca has been available for people that are for under 40, sorry. And then AstraZeneca was available for people over 40, but they said no to a large amount of vaccines. And I mean when you look at New York, which is,

Vance Crowe [00:32:10] What do you mean? They said no to a large amount of vaccines.

Lucy Thackray [00:32:12] So the understanding is that the Australian government said no to a large number of AstraZeneca vaccines wanting another, but the rollout has just that it hasn't been available when it, they said it was going to be, it's been very difficult, you know, where your local doctors or whether, you know, vaccine centers were meant to have started. They've all started a couple of months after they were meant to. It's just been very, very slow and the eligibility has been very slow. So where we had no cases, it's, there's now a breakout and Sydney's in lockdown, so many states are having small snap lockdowns to try to deal with the fact that there's over 20 cases at the moment every day, which sounds like nothing but the fact we had none for so many months. And now we're at that point people were saying we'd been handed this unique opportunity where there was vaccines available but a huge lull in numbers and that was a great opportunity to vaccinate everyone. But what we're seeing instead is, I mean the national rate of vaccination of being fully vaccinated is 7% in Australia.

Vance Crowe [00:33:18] Ooh.

Lucy Thackray [00:33:20] So where the rest of the world is opening up, we're locking back down.

Vance Crowe [00:33:25] So, and, and that's because of availability of vaccines or is there also a movement in Australia of people that don't want to get vaccinated?

Lucy Thackray [00:33:33] That's the availability. There are lots of people that are keen to, so even though the medical advice has been that the AstraZeneca vaccination is basically it's best for people over 60 because we now have this breakout, the prime minister has changed his mind and said that anybody can now have AstraZeneca even they want, if they want to, even though there are those blood clot concerns. And that is going against some of that medical advice. But there are so many people in their twenties and thirties that are saying, I, I don't mind if there's that risk, I'm going to get AstraZeneca because I'm sick of waiting to be eligible for the other vaccine and I just wanna be vaccinated. I mean there's a nurse today in Sydney, HA two nurses have been diagnosed with COVID and they were working at hospitals. So not even, you know, all of our healthcare professionals are vaccinated and they're going to hospitals without having, you know, being immunized. So it is disappointing that we went from leading in the world in terms of getting on top of this COVID situation and then trailing behind and actually seeing a resurgence.

Vance Crowe [00:34:44] So I mean you guys, you sounds like you guys are in chaos and I think everywhere feels like the tension is high. What is the state of journalism in Australia right now? Because here in the US this large conflict, people don't trust the media or they only trust one side of the media? Is that same thing happening in Australia?

Lucy Thackray [00:35:06] We are seeing a lot of that as well and people saying that the media and politicians are working together to, to lead things a certain way in terms of talking about COVID and there are some COVID deniers, but that is, that is difficult. There are people as well that are seeing our whole country open up, close down, open up, close down and are starting to get really frustrated with that and are wondering, you know, what's our government doing? Why has this vaccine rollout been such a mess? And it's difficult too because we are losing a lot of our regional press, so lots of funds are going away and it's just kind of city based press and that can be very difficult too because you have those outbreaks in the cities, but then regions are doing something else entirely. So we don't have as much local media because of funding going out of, you know, media altogether. So it is, it's a very difficult time with messaging and a lot of the criticism has been that the government's messaging has been so confused and a lot of the time that comes back to us in the media and it's trying to make sense of, of rules and numbers and yeah, it's a very confusing time and it's a bit, yeah, it's quite disappointing to see us go backwards after honestly having our country open again for the last five months or so.

Vance Crowe [00:36:29] So when you're not reporting on, on rodents, you're out in kind of a more rural area, what are you reporting on?

Lucy Thackray [00:36:37] So I live in Western New South Wales and that's a mix of all kinds of different types of farming. So we've got irrigated farming, there's cotton grown, which is actually quite contentious to, to grow cotton in such a dry kind of landscape. There's, you know, at the moment we're looking at people that are trying to restock after the drought and they've got such incredibly high cattle and sheep prices. So how they're dealing with that and if people have restocked how they're dealing with, you know, new bloodlines and at the moment they're carving for the first time. So that's another aspect. But then

Vance Crowe [00:37:16] What's carving?

Lucy Thackray [00:37:17] Carving? So if their cows are having calves at the moment,

Vance Crowe [00:37:21] Oh, carving ah,

Lucy Thackray [00:37:23] Ah, that's an accent thing. So carving. So yeah, and I mean a lot of it's water management. We've got rivers that go all through and there's always those arguments about who, who deserves what water and what should be left for the environment, what should we use for agriculture?

Vance Crowe [00:37:46] That's, that's the big one going on right now. So next week sometime I'll interview somebody in the US like places like California might have 50 linear feet of water per minute and now they have 0.5 linear feet. So it's like catastrophic water loss. When you are looking at the news and you're watching about what's going on in the world, what is your impression people in Australia of what's going on in the United States right now?

Lucy Thackray [00:38:13] I mean it has been unbelievable to watch the United States over the last few years and what's been, what's been going on. I mean, at the moment there's quite a lot of envy to see you guys opening up in terms of from a COVID situation because we're locking back down. So it seems we've, you know, passed the bat, the bat on there. But I mean the media situation seems so much more extreme than what we see. We have it to some extent here in Australia, but nothing like what you have over there with that divisiveness and, and that language that people use and, and the fact that people affiliate themselves with one line or the other. It's certain certainly such a, a level of extremist there to everything. It's just that divisiveness in the country is what blows us away. I mean that happens to some element here too, but I think our governments are much more like the two parties are much more similar than the Republicans and the Democrats in the US.

Vance Crowe [00:39:17] Yeah, and it's funny, I was thinking about this the other day that for a long time when I was younger I didn't have like a strong political affiliation in the idea that you would have a team or be on one side. Like yeah you might lean more left or more right? But like not to some extreme. And now there's very, very, very few people that have some middle ground that they stand on. People choose a side and and go towards it. And I think it's because if you don't choose a side, you're not gonna win anything. You're gonna lose everything and, and there it's much, much more polarized than I ever remember it.

Lucy Thackray [00:39:51] Yeah, and I mean we have the Murdoch press here as well. He was Australia's gift to America and you def definitely see that in some aspects of the press where there is a definite view, but not nothing like what you see overseas, you know, with Fox News and things like that. That's just absolutely extraordinary to me.

Vance Crowe [00:40:15] And what's Australia's relationship with China right now from your perspective? That's always been something we've been watching kind of just like distantly.

Lucy Thackray [00:40:25] Yeah, I mean when you look at what is happening with wool and, and when they have, you know, tariffs and things like that and arguments with us at the moment, they've been holding that over us in terms of grain and wine and what an impact that has to our entire agriculture industry over here. I mean, we can pretend that we function without them, but they really can hold so much over Australia in terms of exports. And that has been difficult. I mean, people have been looking at things like wool and manufacturing and wondering, okay, if these relations continue to be so difficult with China, could we move somewhere like India? But it, it would just be so difficult to create that infrastructure, you know, rehaul an entire system. So that reliance there and the difficult relations with the government as well, I think people get quite frustrated when the government does that because it doesn't matter for them. The government gets paid the same, but when that filters through to farmers and the money they can or can't make, and I mean we've got so much wool just sitting, you know, in storage here that isn't being sold or isn't being exported. It's, it's so difficult on that level for agriculture to, you know, any decision the government makes has actually felt in the hip pocket here.

Vance Crowe [00:41:54] Yeah, I mean Australia is such an interesting place because you, it's dry so much of it like is not arable the parts that are produced massively, but you don't have the consumption inside of your own country. So all the sheep that you have have to go to the Middle East, all the wool. I, I didn't know it was going to China and without export partners, Australia's on an island and you just, there's nothing you can do with your stuff

Lucy Thackray [00:42:20] After going through the drought. Goats have actually become much more popular because, you know, they're such a hearty animal and they hope through the drought so well, and the prices, people at the moment are getting better prices for goats than they would for sheep. I mean they're going for $10 each, which is just incredible, particularly considering you can just harvest wild goats and, and make so much money. But so much of that is export, it's exporting that to India or the Middle East and you know, they say that the demand for goats is limited only by supply, it's just limitless. So those relationships, they're so important and that's for some of the driest areas is where you see goats and it's quite bizarre to us because we don't eat a lot of it, but the fact that, you know, it is so valuable and the demand is so high that it absolutely relies on those relationships going well.

Vance Crowe [00:43:18] You mentioned PETA a couple of times and I've had some clients from Australia talk about how much of an impact those animal rights activist groups have had in Australia. I think maybe more profound than they are here, talk about the animal rights activists in Australia. Is that just perception that they're having?

Lucy Thackray [00:43:39] They've had some situations where Peter have been going onto properties, so they had a program where they could work out where people were and what they were doing. You know, they, they used satellite imagery to find properties and send out messages and they're actually going into people's properties and protesting. So that has been very difficult because I think the extremeness of those actions that really creates a divisiveness between farmers and animal activists. So those conversations, they're definitely not constructive at the moment. And I think those types of acts like trespassing, it definitely hasn't it, it hasn't done good things with those working relationships. It's just made it more and more difficult when, you know, on one side they, they both demonize each other in that relationship. Animal activists and farmers

Vance Crowe [00:44:38] Are things like veganism and environmentalism. Is that, are those growing in Australia or do you think they've hit kind of a stasis and they're flat? What do you think?

Lucy Thackray [00:44:49] Oh, I definitely think they are as is organic and people knowing more about where their food comes from. And I think a lot of that hit home during COVID when things really locked down and things like, you know, butchers were running out of food so quickly and people were actually trying to seek out local products because of problems that we were having with, you know, importing from overseas. And so there has been a lot of extra focus on supporting local and, and what we're getting locally. So even if that's, even if people are eating meat, it's about knowing where it came from and making sure that it's ethically sourced. That's been huge. But I mean that veganism is still definitely more around the metropolitan areas. It's still a bit of a dirty word I think in a lot of places in the country. But yeah, I mean our local member out here, he's from the Shooters, fishers and Farmers Party, which as the,

Vance Crowe [00:45:52] That's a political party, the shooters Fishers and farmers.

Lucy Thackray [00:45:56] Yeah. And he's a vegan, so there we go. So they do exist.

Vance Crowe [00:46:05] So this has been kind of a gloom and doom podcast, but surely because you're such a positive person, like you have other things you're excited about that you're interested in, what are some of the brighter things going on in your world or where you're at right now?

Lucy Thackray [00:46:21] Oh look, absolutely. I mean it's, it's been amazing to watch this revolution out here of the countryside coming back to life. So our rivers all ran dry and it was just this absolutely devastating period of, you know, lack of hope and, and worrying about the future and how will the landscape and these animals ever survive. But then when the switch flicked basically and it started to rain again, you know, it was absolutely amazing to see these things so quickly come back. And I think that was important lesson for everyone, that just when things seem there worse and they can't get better, you actually see that things can change so quickly. But all these animals, fish, everything has, has had this amazing recovery so far and it was incredible. Right? You know, eight hours from the ocean in a town called Barona, which has a high indigenous population and they've got the fish traps, which are actually the oldest manmade structure in the world. They say they're older than the pyramids and the aboriginal people would put rocks in the river to actually naturally catch fish. But in that town, one day they woke up and there were 500 pelicans on the river, which, you know, everyone was saying how do they know to get there? Where do they come from? Like to someone spot some water and head because they're all from the coast and they came out. But that's been an amazing thing to see the landscape jump back to life. And I mean, a mouse plagues a terrible, terrible thing, but you also look at it as a fact that we're not in drought anymore and things are, things are going so well.

Lucy Thackray [00:48:00] So yeah, it's amazing. And I mean, I'm marrying our local guy in about three months and all my friends when I left the city said, you'll be back and then now this is happening. They're like, oh, you're not coming back. But I mean, despite all the challenges of the past few years that I've spoken about, I clearly, you know, it's home and I love it and

Vance Crowe [00:48:19] Yeah, you mean it, you I'm

Lucy Thackray [00:48:21] Not coming back.

Vance Crowe [00:48:22] So how, how did young women such as yourself meet a young man and, and fall in love in today's day and age

Lucy Thackray [00:48:32] In the Australian countryside? That was definitely at the pub.

Vance Crowe [00:48:38] That

Lucy Thackray [00:48:38] Was at the pub, yeah. Couple of days at the pub. So yeah, that's been, that's been amazing. He is, he's the most Australian person I've ever met as well. He's very ara and he talks like he is like Crocodile Dundee. So if I take him to the city, he walks around like Crocodile Dundee. So that's pretty fun. He's, yeah, he's the shrimp on the Barbie kind of guy, even though we don't say shrimp here.

Vance Crowe [00:49:04] What do you say instead?

Lucy Thackray [00:49:06] Prawns.

Vance Crowe [00:49:07] Ah, okay, sure. Lucy, I'm so glad we found like a, a fun way to end this. Congratulations on getting married. I know that was one of the best things to ever happen to me. If, if people wanted to follow along with your reporting and watch what you're seeing in Australia, where would they go to do that?

Lucy Thackray [00:49:28] So I'm on Twitter at lucy tha T-H-A-C-K, but head as well along to our Australian news website. So that's abc.net au. Plenty of revolting mouse picks and videos for you there.

Vance Crowe [00:49:45] Well, Lucy, Zach Gray, it was absolutely fantastic to have you on and as you guys solve this my mice problem, I'd love to have you back on to hear how you did it.

Lucy Thackray [00:49:56] Well I wish I knew now, but fingers crossed.

Vance Crowe [00:50:01] Thanks Lucy. Thanks so much for checking out this podcast. What an amazing story that Lucy brought to us about the crazy Mice plague in Australia. Since you've stuck around this long, you are probably the type of person that likes in-depth conversations and building networks and trying to improve what you know about the world. So you might be the type of person that would really enjoy getting involved with the Articulate Ventures network. I started this network as I was ramping up the podcast during coronavirus and people kept asking me, Hey, how can I support the podcast? But I didn't really wanna put out a hat and ask for donations. So instead what I did was I started this network and it is a place for people that love and listen to the podcast, can meet other people that love the podcast and can build out relationships in this network, we do things like hold movie nights and book clubs. We also have speaking opportunities where you can practice and we have an activity called the Circular Firing Squad, where we choose a controversial topic and we encourage people to have lively debate, but get better at being able to frame their arguments so that they're never personal and everybody walks away, both being better informed and closer as friends that get to know each other in a network. So if you've been looking around for a digital neighborhood that you would like to join, I would like to invite you go to Network dot Articulate Ventures to learn more. Thanks so much and we will be back next week with another podcast with the Vs. Grove Podcast.