A Former Inmate on Fighting for Your Life in St. Louis Jail and the Hidden Graffiti Culture

Lance Corbett [00:00:00] When you have five people coming at you, you're just, you're, you're helpless. You are helpless. There is nothing you can do. No one is gonna save you. You don't know if you're gonna survive through it. You don't know what's gonna happen. You don't know how you, you're just, it's just adrenaline. That's all it is. And it's 100% fear.

Vance Crowe [00:00:21] This is Michael Ring. I'm a cattle and crop farmer from Northern Illinois, and you're listening to the Vance Crow podcast. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here today. I bring back my friend Lance Corbett. Lance did the podcast a few months ago where I learned about what it was like to be a homeless man for five years, living in a tent down by the Mississippi River. Well, Lance has since done some work at my house. We've become much closer friends, shared a couple meals together, and I decided to invite him back on because he told me about this secret world that I is all around me, but I'd never seen before, which is the world of the graffiti artists. So Lance comes on and talks about what are the people like that go out and tag things at night? Why do they do it? What drives them? And kind of the art behind it. And then a little later in the interview, we switch over to his experiences being a prisoner. He was actually arrested and taken to jail. He went and lived in this place called the Workhouse, where in St. Louis, this is considered a very, very tough place to be housed as an inmate. So Lance talks all about that and what it was like to be fighting for his life at times. So we're gonna get to that. But one thing is, if you are enjoying conversations like this where we are running the span between a German chemist yesterday to a graffiti artist today and tomorrow, a Chinese expert, then you're the type of person that likes a different way of thinking, a different model, a different set of ideas being pushed towards you.

Vance Crowe [00:01:54] And that's why you might want to consider joining the Articulate Ventures Network. This is a place that I've created for people to join and support the podcast, but also to get access to episodes early, to being a part of discussions and conversations. And we've also done all sorts of activities that help people become tangibly better communicators. We have the book club, we have virtual reality experiences. So if you're interested, go check out Articulate Ventures. I'll leave a link below. But know that that's a great way to support the podcast and meet other people that are interested in conversations that span from Xang Wang to Lance Corbett, which is my dream is to keep bringing as many of these great conversations as we can. So I am so glad you're here. And now onto the interview with Lance Corbett.

Lance Corbett [00:02:47] Lance

Vance Crowe [00:02:47] Corbett, welcome back to the podcast. What's up? What's up? Hey, how's it going? It's going well, man. Last time I saw you. Yeah. We were slugging sod all around my front yard. Yeah. And laying it down. Yeah.

Lance Corbett [00:03:00] Yeah. That was a good time actually. It was really good to get just to, just to get to know you a little bit better, you know, and get to working and watch you watch your work ethic. You know what I'm saying?

Vance Crowe [00:03:12] There's nothing like doing a job with somebody, right? Yeah. Because you find out how does this person start a job? How do they interact? What happens when something frustrating happens? How do they wrap up? You really learn a lot about, I mean, I think that's why some of the closest friends you have are almost always the people you work with,

Lance Corbett [00:03:28] Right? Yeah. Yeah. It was really cool because I usually work by myself, you know what I'm saying? Or, or like, I'll just find somebody that I'll hire for one day or whatever. But it was really interesting to, to, to be working on your stuff and then you helping me. Like that's just a different dynamic that I'm not used to, you know what I'm saying? And then, and then you're, you know, you're a friend of mine, so it's, it was just, it was a really cool experience actually.

Vance Crowe [00:03:58] Yeah. It was a good afternoon. Yeah. I, I mean, like, I, I now go look at that grass and realize like, Hey man, this is all put in. Like, it's like a, I think that that's one of the things about doing yard work or something like that with your friend building something is, it's like, yeah,

Lance Corbett [00:04:11] Yeah. Then

Vance Crowe [00:04:12] It's a part, your friend is there forever. If you plan a tree together, if you build something together, your friend is always there with you.

Lance Corbett [00:04:19] Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:04:20] How has the rest of the summer been for you? Been busy.

Lance Corbett [00:04:24] It was kind of busy. I was digging, I was building a fence the other day and I messed up my wrist, so I'm like out of commission. I'm, I, I've got, yeah, it's, it's a rough deal. I can't even hold a soda can with my right hand. Like here. I just, I think what happened was is I overworked it. I was working too hard. I didn't take enough breaks, and I just overworked it, and my hand started hurting and I was like, oh, well, I'm just gonna power through it for the rest of the day, you know? But it just got worse and worse. And now I'm outta commission for a couple weeks, you know? So, but it was, it, you know, I, I still am calling people around and making sure that jobs are scheduled. I'm making sure that people understand, Hey, look, I'm not doing so hot right now, but as soon as, as soon as this heals up, we're gonna get back out there and I'm gonna make sure that the things that I had told you we were gonna get done are gonna get done. You know what I'm saying? So that's

Vance Crowe [00:05:23] Like, one of the weird things that happens is you grow into adulthood, like when you're a kid.

Lance Corbett [00:05:27] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:05:27] And you get injured, you're like, ah, my finger hurts, or my knee hurts, or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. But when you're an adult, if your injury actually prevents you from making money, now the pain is only intensified, right? Yeah. Because you're trying to ignore it, but you've gotta face it. Your body is telling you, Hey, you've gone too far. But like, there's always that added pressure of like, how will I make money if I can't work?

Lance Corbett [00:05:49] Right, right. And I'm lucky that I have, I don't just do landscaping, you know, I'm studying, studying to be a personal trainer for, for exercise. So I want to be like a personal trainer to help people lose weight and things like that. So I work at a gym as well, just a conventional blue fire fitness over there in, in Fairview Heights. It's a lot like a Planet Fitness. But, so I work there at the front desk, so that's like a very minimal physical job, you know, I can say hi to customers and dah, dah, dah. And I still make a little bit of money to like, make sure that I'm okay. And then I have savings as well. So, you know what I mean? I'm lucky to have that, you know what I mean? I'm not just all in one thing. And if I can't do that, then I'm screwed. You know what I mean? So,

Vance Crowe [00:06:39] When you and I were working together, we had a chance to like, have an even pure conversation than in the, in the podcast. 'cause you get to kind of explore and you don't really know what's gonna come up. But one of the things that came up while we were talking, and I don't know if you're cool with talking about it on the podcast, was that you actually understand the world of graffiti. And

Lance Corbett [00:06:58] To

Vance Crowe [00:06:59] Me, as like a, a kid that grew up in a small town and then moved to a big city, graffiti has always been one of those things. That's often the distance. It's down on the train yards, it's on the warehouses, but it's far away. 'cause it signals you stay outta here, this isn't for you. How in the world did you get involved in the world of graffiti?

Lance Corbett [00:07:18] Well, it has been a very interesting journey. It is a very intricate and interesting story. So when I was a kid, I was always interested in graffiti, just like you were saying, you know, it's like something off in the distance. You know, I've always appreciated art. I was always interested in like, watching graffiti come up. And then the city would come over and buff it out and I'd be like, oh, that's not there anymore. And then like two weeks later, it would be like a different piece in the same spot. You're like, whoa, look at that one. You know what I mean? Like, whoa, how did they do that? And like, you know, and a lot of people ask me, well, how do you climb up there? And how do you, you know, those are all the questions that I asked myself when I was a kid. And so I studied it and I like researched it, and I was always like really in depth. I knew who these people were. I knew where the artists came from, the cities they came from. How

Vance Crowe [00:08:17] Did you research it? When you say you're going to the library and looking up, like how they tag things or what really?

Lance Corbett [00:08:22] Yeah, basically. I mean, essentially you find there's like magazines that are pressed, you know what I'm saying? A lot like, you can say Time Magazine or, or whatever, but it's like, there's a magazine called Juxtapose, and that's a very progressive art magazine that shows like a lot of the progressive art nowadays. And every once in a while you'll get like a graffiti article in that magazine, you know what I'm saying? And then you'll read that article, you know, or you'll flip through, you know, some street art that you see at a coffee shop or whatever, right. And then it's particularly the coffee shops, that's like where I started, I would go to the coffee shop, and then they have like these shelves where you can write, there's like these notebooks, right? And you can go in and you can just write a poem, or you can draw something and you put the notebook back up on the, on the shelf. And that's just part of the shop's notebook, right? So when you go there, sometimes you'll have graffiti artists that will pop in and they'll slap something on a, on a notebook, and they'll say, you know, from Atlanta, or dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, you know what I'm saying? And then they'll put it up in the, in that coffee shop. And so it's like kind of tucked away. That's like a little nook and cranny spot where you can kind of find out a little more about the inside of it, I'm saying. Well, and

Vance Crowe [00:09:49] Are these coffee shops that you're describing, like, is this in a Starbucks that just happens to be in a small town? Or is this not something different?

Lance Corbett [00:09:56] It, it's local. It's local shops. You gotta have an eye for it. You know what I mean? Local shops have a different feel, you know, they have comfortable seating. They have tables that you can draw on and sketch on, you know what I'm saying? Like some coffee shop. It's, I don't know. And it's changed throughout the years, like four or five years ago, the whole, even the, even the local coffee shops have kind of changed over into like a more of a modern, you know, metal chairs. You know, come get your coffee, sit down, drink your coffee and leave kind of deal. So the dynamic is a little different, but do you still have those notebooks that are up on the wall, you know, up on the shelf? And, and so that was kinda like my first like, wave of it. And then when I was younger, and then when, like, my life developed as we talked before, when I was homeless, you know, I was walking around the streets. I mean, it was, it was walking around the streets all night, every night. And eventually I would bump into these artists, these, these graffiti artists that were just out, you know, having fun, you know, smoking blunts and drinking beer, and they're like out spraying whatever they wanted, you know what I mean? Like, they're just out having fun. And here I am, I'm like, whoa. Like, I've been studying this. What do you got? Who are you? And da da da. And that's how you, you bump into them and you end up hanging out with

Vance Crowe [00:11:25] Them. And how old were you when this is happening?

Lance Corbett [00:11:28] Well, the coffee shop deal, I was pretty young, but when I was homeless, let's see, I was homeless from 19 years old until I was 24, 25. So, so those, those years I was out and about and bumping into these graffiti artists and stuff like that. And eventually, like, you know, know there's two different style, there's two different dynamics of graffiti, right? So you have the graffiti artists, like the mural artist, you'll see on the big giant murals that they get commissioned to do. You know, companies will come and hire them to go do that. You see that a lot in Colorado now. There's a lot of commissioned graffiti where they pay the graffiti artist to come out and do a wall. And then there's like the dark side of graffiti where it's like, you have the gangsters and you have the, the, the drug druggies that are out, you know, eating mushrooms and eating acid, and they're out, you know, painting on walls illegal, and they're going to the train yards and stuff like that. And it's, it's, there's like a, a crime element to it, but there's two different sides to it. You see what I'm saying? Like, they, they, and

Vance Crowe [00:12:50] Do they mix? Does the, does the drug you get commissioned to do work that, that then lets sometimes. Okay.

Lance Corbett [00:12:56] Yeah, sometimes it's, it's a really strange dynamic because there's a thin line where, you know, it's all a collective. We all, like, as a graffiti artist, myself and I only paint occasionally, I don't paint a lot. So I'm not really technically like a full on graffiti artist, you know what I'm saying? But I've been involved with it, and I know, so I say we, as in, you know what I mean? I'm kind of part of the community, but I'm not, you know what I mean? Well, I know that there's a dynamic to where it's like everybody has the same goal, right? And that's the appreciation of the art, right? And so once you boil down the appreciation of the art, all of the outside stuff doesn't matter. So like, the commissioned artist will talk to the, the, the, I guess quote unquote criminal or whatever, about the graffiti. And it's not about the other stuff. It's about the peace. It's about the, the wild style or the hollow bomb, or, you know, the tag, or, you know, 'cause all of those are different styles of graffiti, hand styles and, and things like that. You know? And so

Vance Crowe [00:14:12] The thing that I think is striking is like, as I am thinking about this, it's hard for me to see art where you're at. Like, I can, 'cause my friend is saying, Hey, there's beauty there, but I drive down the road and I see what's on the trains or on the warehouses. And I think this is people that wanna make it. So they say, I'm gonna create a mess. And you clean it up, and they're being really aggressive by writing that in there. Yeah. But you see something different. So how is it that you see this as art, help me understand this.

Lance Corbett [00:14:41] Well, once you get into the life of it, and you start realizing who these artists are, you know, because there are artists out there that are suit and ties that will go to a nine to five job. And then when they come home, they have a milk crate full of graffiti of, of, of spray paint. And they'll go paint. And then they go back to their nine to five job the next day. You know what I'm saying? Like, and, and that's part of, you know, so it's, anybody can, anybody can do that. So you start looking at, what I, what I like to look at what I appreciate the most is, is visible spots. Right? So you have a visible spot that most people can see, right? Is it done well? How intricate is it? Right? Okay. So essentially, especially if it's an illegal piece, right? It has to be done well, it has to have good color combinations. How many colors are involved? Is there three? Is there five? Is there seven? Because that means that you have to have that many cans of graffiti of, of paint on you. You know, you have to have that many different cans of paint on you to create that piece, right? So if it's in a visible spot, how intricate is it? If it's visible, that means that they had to do it quickly. You see what I'm saying? So there's, there's speed involved. 'cause you don't want to get caught doing it, right?

Lance Corbett [00:16:12] And then there's the intricacy involved, which is, which takes precision. So there's a timeframe on that precision for the piece itself, right? And then you have to get out of there, right? So there's just all types of dynamics when it comes to that. And then there's the hand stylers, you know, which is kind of what you were saying, which is aggressive. You know, you have the hand stylers, which is just marker, right? I'll just take a a sharpie marker and I'm gonna slap something up, make it look aggressive. This is where we are, this is what's going on. You know, but there's a style to that as well that I appreciate, you know? Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:16:50] There's definitely like a font, there's something that's different. Yeah. Between the eighth grader that's trying to use the f word for the first time. Yeah. Versus the guy that like, has clearly honed an aesthetic. Yeah. And, and it, and it's interesting to me that I, I would never write in those bubble letters or in the way that they do it. Yeah. But it does seem to be like a, like a form of calligraphy, like one that you can recognize there is care that went into making this.

Lance Corbett [00:17:19] Yeah. There's a lot of time that's put into that, you know, and then there's, there's like a hand style. What I like to do personally, I'm sort of a hand styler instead of the, the painting large pieces on trains and stuff like that. I like to carry a marker with me. And so what I like to do is when my marker hits the, the surface, I don't wanna lift my marker up until I'm done with my piece. So it's one motion, it's done, and then you move on, right? And

Vance Crowe [00:18:00] So there's, and is it your signature or are you saying something, or are you drawing something?

Lance Corbett [00:18:04] It's essentially a signature, essentially a signature. I think, and I could be wrong, but I think every graffiti artist has a sense of identity that they're trying to claim. And that's why they, that's why you see names, that's why you see specific words. You see, you know, like in in St. Louis in particular, you see like obsess. He, he claimed, hi, that was his word, O-B-C-E-S, that was his name. Everybody called him that. And then you have horse, and you have kink, and you have bang, and you have do rat,

Vance Crowe [00:18:42] Rat, fag,

Lance Corbett [00:18:43] Rat fag, right? You have CSL and all of these people, they, they, I feel like some of that is just like a sense of identity. Like, this is who I am, this is what I'm doing, this is my alter ego. I'm not doing a nine to five right now. So my name is rat fag. Do you see what I'm saying? Like what I'm, yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:19:04] And like, this is striking me as, as something that was, I knew we should have a conversation about this because it was deeper than what I expected. Because it's an interesting thing to think about. I'm going to put art, but I'm gonna steal the canvas, right? Like, I'm going to create a canvas that, yeah.

Lance Corbett [00:19:18] That

Vance Crowe [00:19:19] If somebody wants it here, than it doesn't actually belong here. So it's gotta be some element of chaos and some element of, of people not wanting it there and something. Yeah. But when I saw, somebody pointed out to me this con the, the name rat fag, which is like, kind of a harsh thing to say, but in St. Louis, you could see it and it stopped being coarse or aggressive to me when I could recognize it, and then I could see it. And it's the only one I've ever been able to see. So I'm hoping to be able to spot ones that you're describing now, because I think you can't really know your city until you have some understanding of its graffiti,

Lance Corbett [00:19:57] Right? No, yeah. And it's part of it. And that's, and that's, that's what they call all city. In the graffiti world, when you go all city, that means that everybody in the city that's really from that city knows who you are. You're all city. And that's like Quake, that's another one. He's a youngster, a little bit younger than me, but he went, he blew up like four or five years ago, and it was just like, nobody really knew who he was. He had painted a couple of things, and then it was just like everywhere. You just saw him everywhere. And there's like an unwritten rule to graffiti as well, you know, like you say that it's an unwanted canvas, it's a canvas that's like unwanted, but there's an unwritten rule. I mean, we don't, we don't paint schools that are in use. You see what I'm saying? We don't paint federal buildings. We don't paint non abandoned buildings, you know? I mean, sure, we can paint a billboard, but we're not out painting a police station. You know what I'm saying? Like, like some, some of it is, is like a okay, you know, it's is technically stolen canvas, but what else are you doing with it? You see what I'm saying? Like, what else are you doing with it? There's a dilapidated building, there's a broken window. It's, it's got, it's got, you know, the bricks are falling off of it and everything. Like it's just ugly. There's, there's, you know, grass and weeds growing over there.

Lance Corbett [00:21:28] Let's clear this out and put something up that looks good, whether you think it's aggressive or not, it looks better than what it was. And there's some type of thing about that as well. It's like, okay, well, you know, you've got these, these hood areas or these, you know, like, but that's just one part of it, you know what I'm saying? Because you have the train pieces and then the hand style, like I said, there's so many different dynamics of it. It's just like, it's just such a wide range of, of, of thought processes when it comes to like, graffiti. And I think, I think what it is, is, is where your sense of identity that you're claiming comes from. Where does it stem from? You know what I'm saying? Like, you have,

Vance Crowe [00:22:13] When, when people, okay, so as you're walking outta your house, you are some other graffiti artist. What is the, the compilation of emotions that's going through you? Are you excited? Do you know for sure, hey, I'm gonna go out and tag? Or is it just like, I put this stuff on and if it comes up, if I'm hit by the muse, like how does all this combine together? How does it feel to be out there?

Lance Corbett [00:22:37] I think it depends. It depends on what you're planning on doing. You know, once you catch the bug, which is what we call it, right? Once you catch the graffiti bug, you, it never goes away. It never goes away. You're always looking at looking at hand styles. You're always like looking at the piece like, oh, who is that? You know? Oh, sh you know, they buffed, they buffed my homie spot. You know what I'm saying? Like, we gotta go back and get that sometime. You know, you're always looking for a cut spot to put some piece up or a cut spot to put something like a hand style. Like, oh, they marked that out, or this artist dissed this artist by painting over them. Or like, you're always looking at that. So I think it's, it's, it's really like a perpetuating thing because sometimes you'll, yeah, you'll go out and you'll go on what they call a spray ca, right? And these artists, these, these graffiti artists will come from a different city and they'll go to a city and then they'll spend like a whole weekend where they just spray paint everything they possibly can, and then they go back to their hometown, you know? And so like some of that is, yeah, you go out particularly wanting to paint, and then the other times where you're just like out hanging out, you're going to a show, a rock show or whatever, and then you see a piece on the wall that you're like, oh, you know, that got buffed. Let's go paint that tonight. You know what I'm saying? And then you go do that tonight. You know what I mean? So it's, it's, it kind of give or take, it just depends.

Lance Corbett [00:24:11] Like I said, when you catch the bug, it doesn't ever really go away. You're always looking and seeing like hand styles and different, different stuff like that.

Vance Crowe [00:24:20] And if you're driving down the road and you see, hey, that's new graffiti that wasn't there yesterday. Yeah. Did, was somebody out there with a group of people that night? Was somebody out there by themselves? Are they sitting there just getting drunk while they're doing this? Is this like, how does it go down?

Lance Corbett [00:24:36] I think it depends. Some guys like to do it solo, but it's usually a good idea to have somebody with you just to kind of spot, make sure that you don't get caught. You know? And, and not everybody.

Vance Crowe [00:24:49] What's the price getting caught?

Lance Corbett [00:24:51] It depends. It depends. If it's more than $3,000 worth of damage, then it's a felony. It's felony defacing property. So, but a lot of times they charge you with more than 3000 because if you're catching it on an overpass, they have to shut down the, the highway to get to that overpass and that costs money. You see what I'm saying? So it's, it's all about like the, the overall cost of the cleanup, you know what I'm saying? Most of the time it's a felony. It's felony vacing property. Yeah. So that's like what it is. And not all, you know, like I said before, they're suit and tiger graffiti artists, not all of them are out getting drunk, you know what I'm saying? Not all of 'em are out there, you know, smoking blunts, spraying cans like you do see in the movies, you know what I mean? It's not like that, you know, it's there, there are people out there that are respectable members of society. They pay their taxes, they work jobs 40 hours, 50 hours, 60 hour week jobs, and they're out just painting graffiti because that's what they like to do. And that's their alter ego, you know what I mean? And that's just how it's manifested in their art form. You know,

Vance Crowe [00:26:03] There's something that I definitely want to know and understand about the graffiti in St. Louis, because I, it is so far away, and as you're describing it, like, I don't want it done on buildings I own, or I don't want it happen to my friend's building. But I can say it is a part of the tapestry of understanding who's there and what do they expect. When you think about where there are places where there's lots of graffiti and there's not, like, I feel like if I go to a place with a lot of graffiti that tells me, Vance, you don't belong here, get, get out of here. Is that the message I should take away from that?

Lance Corbett [00:26:37] Not necessarily. That's not how I see it. I see it as culture. I see it as culture. It's, it's a place for artists to let loose, you know? I mean, if you think about it, like, you know, art in general is expensive and, and it's hard to sell. If you ever look at an artist that's struggling to make it, you know, to make ends meet, they're always like, support the local artist and please buy my piece for this much. And they're, a lot of, a lot of people undervalue someone's hard work in their work, because if you're in a position to buy a piece of art, then you have enough money. You know what I'm saying? Like, you, you, if you're in a position to buy art, then why are you not, why are you worried about how much it costs kind of thing? And then, and then all of this effort and all of this work goes into being an artist and they get undervalued. So I think when you go to an area where there's graffiti, there's just culture, some of those people are thinking, well, this is my canvas. If I can't sell it, everyone's going to appreciate it anyway. So f you, you know what I'm saying? Like, and, and, and it's not necessarily, you know, but then there's also the gang graffiti, you know, you have to be mindful of that. You know, there's, there's certain calligraphy, like you said, there's certain calligraphy that you need to pay attention to that, that there are gangs that are marking their territory, you know?

Lance Corbett [00:28:16] So you need to be kind of mindful of that. But I think once you catch the bug, and once you get an eye for it, and you start seeing that, like, there's a different grade of art that comes out of the actual artist, as opposed to the gang, gang people that you know, like to drink and smoke blunts. They, they don't have the same quality of art as the actual artist. You know what I mean? That's out there.

Vance Crowe [00:28:41] That is amazing that there is a distinction there that

Lance Corbett [00:28:45] That

Vance Crowe [00:28:45] One is a higher form of artwork and the other one means something different.

Lance Corbett [00:28:49] Yeah. Yeah. And so, and, and that's, you know, it's just, I think the more you involve yourself with it, the more you start seeing it, the easier it will be. There's a, there's a really cool event that you might want to hear about, you might wanna check out Vance, it's called Paint Lewis, and it's every October and down in St. Louis, they have a giant, like miles and miles of, of, of, of flood wall, right. And about 10, about 20 years ago, actually 30 years ago, now that I think about it, yeah. About, well, 25 years ago, there was an art, there was a graffiti artist that fell off a train trestle, and he died. Right? And so the lds, which is the lowdown crew, which is pretty much the, the, the graffiti crew that's in St. Louis, they've, they essentially run the graffiti scene in St. Louis. They motioned for the city to have a, like a fundraiser for this graffiti artist. And the city allowed them to do it. So they have this big giant flood wall, and they brought all of these graffiti crews from all across the country to go paint on this wall. And they called it Paint Lewis. Right? And so now it's developed into, like, over the years, it's, you know, there's a couple things that, there's a couple kinks and nooks and crannies that they had to work out, but now it still goes on.

Lance Corbett [00:30:21] And what they have is, is every, you know, once a year, on the weekends, they have crews from all across the country that meet up in St. Louis, and they paint the graffiti wall, is what they call it. And it's right down off of Broadway, if you cut and you cut left before you get to the Taco Bell and the bp, then you'll be able to see the big giant wall, and it's just miles and miles and miles of graffiti from all over the country. You know, it's really cool.

Vance Crowe [00:30:49] I would love to see that, man, if I can pull that off. Yeah. Because babies come in, but if I can pull it off, that would

Lance Corbett [00:30:53] Be a thing

Vance Crowe [00:30:54] To see.

Lance Corbett [00:30:54] Yeah, it's like October and then, and then not only that, you'll get to watch them do it. You get, they're out there painting it, and it's an event. It's like a sanctioned event from the city that's just like, you guys can paint here. Go ahead. You know what I mean? And it's, it's pretty cool.

Vance Crowe [00:31:12] So you mentioned there was a crew of people that kind of run the paint, the low downs you said, like, is that, yeah. Is that in every city? Is there a group of people that are just kind of, what does it mean to be the dominant group?

Lance Corbett [00:31:23] General, generally, I mean, when I say run, it sounds like gangster stuff, but it's not really. It's just kinda like, that's just the prominent crew that's in the area. And I say crew instead of gang, because it's actually a crew. It's not a gang. They're not running drugs and blah, blah, blah. It's just a crew of people that hang out and paint graffiti, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, and they just happen to, they just happen to have the biggest crew. They happen to have the most pieces out. And a lot of cities have multiple crews. I mean, there's a couple here in the city as well. There's CTO, there's OFB, there's, check this out, only fresh bombs, low down, all those different crews. There's TTK, that's another one that you see. But a lot of 'em, like, since it's such a small community, a lot of them paint, you know, they all know each other, you know what I'm saying? And, and then there's some cities that are, that are that kind of the, the crews will beef and then other cities they don't, you know, it's just kind of like, it's just the world of it, you know what I'm saying? Like, don't paint over my piece and we don't have any problems kind of thing. But that doesn't really happen here in the city. Here in St. Louis. It's more just one crew. And then the other smaller crews paint with the one crew. Like, it's not really, but there's not really any like dominance. There's no, like, you know, slinging guns around and stuff like that.

Lance Corbett [00:32:57] Like, it's not the wild west. So it's just kind of like the crews that paint more than others, you know what I mean?

Vance Crowe [00:33:07] So changing the subject. This has been fascinating, but you and I also had a really good conversation when you were at my house about the time you spent at the workhouse, which

Lance Corbett [00:33:17] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:33:17] Is a really interesting thing because for, well, for people that don't know that aren't in St. Louis, what is workhouse? What, what, why is it term that, how, how, why do people go there?

Lance Corbett [00:33:27] The workhouse is inner city jail, right? And so you have four classes of felonies, right? You have A's and B's, which are the higher classes. And then you have cd, and actually there's another one E. So you have C, d, E, and those are the lower class of felonies. And the lower class of felonies go to the workhouse. The workhouse is just basically an inner city jail, medium security. It was built in the seventies. It's like really old. It's the old school. Like, you see the movies where they're like, cl like that's the way it is. You know what I'm saying? There's like bunks, there's like, there's, there's bunks and there's a lot of, a lot of violence in there. I mean, it's, it's pretty intense. It's one of the most violent jails in the country for the past like 10 years. It's just been, it's just unreal. The crime and the violence that I saw while I was there definitely traumatized me to, to say the least. It was, it was incredible. When

Vance Crowe [00:34:34] You say incredible, there's violence in there. You know, the perception of a person that's outside of the prison, like mine is, you have people in jail and you have prison guards. The people in jail are in cells. And then when you wanna move them, you move them one at a time. Yeah.

Lance Corbett [00:34:47] So

Vance Crowe [00:34:47] When is there violence? How does that work?

Lance Corbett [00:34:51] The workhouse isn't, isn't structured like that. It's, it's actually has big huge bays where you have like 70 bunks in one, in one bay. Whoa. Right? Yeah. And it's 24 hours. So you have like a day room with a TV and things like that. And then, but your bathrooms and your showers and your and and stuff like that is all in one big bay. And, and there's multiple bays. And the only time you actually sit in a cell is when you go, when you get in trouble and you go to the hole, right? And you sit, you sit in the hole. I mean, you're in trouble. You're isolated. That's what they do. And so, like, that's not how the workhouse is. It's just one big bay, you know? And so there was a lot of inmate to inmate crime. You know, people steal stuff, you know, there's people that come in jail and they don't have anything. They're hungry. They're from the streets, you know, they see their bunk mate has a ramen noodle soup, and they're gonna steal it from 'em because they're hungry. And then when that, that turns into a fight, turns into a, somebody getting jumped, turns into, I mean, somebody getting beaten to death, you know what I mean? Over

Vance Crowe [00:35:59] Ramen noodles,

Lance Corbett [00:36:00] Over ramen noodle soup. Yeah. It's, it was, it was incredible. Like, I watched people get seriously terminally hurt because of a ramen noodle soup. It's just unreal. You know, the crime there and the, the living, the living was just unbearable, you know? It wasn't, it wasn't humane, you know, at all whatsoever.

Vance Crowe [00:36:29] So tell me about the, your experience there. I mean, like, and as much as you're willing to talk about, were you threatened, were you put in a position where people try and harm you?

Lance Corbett [00:36:39] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I was, I was there for a while and I got in like 20 fights, I think total. And it was, it was, it was all out war. It was, I'm gonna fight or I'm gonna get my ass beat, you know, like, I'm gonna fight or I'm not gonna have anything, you know, like, I'm just not gonna have anything. And so I stood up for myself, you know, I'm, I'm generally not necessarily aggressive, but I like to stand up for myself, you know what I'm saying? And I like to make sure that people know that you can't just push me around. I was always kind of been like that, you know, because of my wrestling background and stuff like that. And I looked like I could fight, which is the reason why some people wanted to fight me because they, you know, there's young kids that are trying to join a gang. They want to get their stripes and they're gonna go fight the person that looks like they can fight, you know, if they can win, you know? I mean, that was just the way it was, you know, it's pretty crazy. But one thing that's really interesting, that's really cool. So the whole time I was talking to my mom while I was in there and she was fighting. I mean, there's like rats in there. There's like black mold and there's like, just the living, the living is just not right there, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's not for, it's not up to standard by any means. It, it was like a third world country.

Lance Corbett [00:38:11] I mean, it really was. I mean, when you look at, when you look at pictures of what, like sometimes I will look at pictures of third world country jails, and it was like exactly like the workhouse. Exactly. No, no, no difference whatsoever. There's no cooling. It's, there's no, there's no heat, there's no cooling, there's no, there's no no ac It's just big open bays with one fan for 70 guys. You know, it's, it's pretty crazy. You know,

Vance Crowe [00:38:44] You couldn't put 70 men together in those conditions when they're all professional class working, getting along, like, yeah,

Lance Corbett [00:38:50] They'll

Vance Crowe [00:38:51] Go nuts if you do that. Yeah.

Lance Corbett [00:38:52] So

Vance Crowe [00:38:53] To put it with a bunch of people that have behavior and aggression and psychological

Lance Corbett [00:38:57] Issues

Vance Crowe [00:38:58] And all those things.

Lance Corbett [00:38:58] Yeah. Lack of education. That was an, that's an, that was another like large eye-opener for me was to see, to see how uneducated some people really are. It was, it was just, it was such a opener.

Vance Crowe [00:39:16] What does that mean? I mean,

Lance Corbett [00:39:17] For people

Vance Crowe [00:39:17] Like me that have been educated and spent time around other educated people their whole lives, what does it mean to be around somebody that

Lance Corbett [00:39:23] Didn't

Vance Crowe [00:39:24] Have an education?

Lance Corbett [00:39:25] I mean, there's people that didn't know how to tie their shoes. There's people that didn't know how to read. There's people that, there's people in there. There were people, inmates that were in there that didn't know how to express what they were trying to say because they didn't know how to talk. I mean, it was like that, it was like, they literally not articulate enough to speak to me and tell me what they were going through. I mean, it was like, like, how could you possibly make it this far and not be able to speak? You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't understand that. Well, I,

Vance Crowe [00:40:06] I had this a really similar, I mean, not in that regard. 'cause you see it way after I did, but I was working with inner city kids, kids that were like 12 to 15 years old. And you could tell the kids that had not been exposed to reading or a large vocabulary because they couldn't differentiate between their different emotional states. They had way less of them. So they could go from jealousy to anger in a matter of moments. Yeah. Because they didn't have like, well, I'm feeling frustrated. Well, I'm feeling these other things. So you have these minor gradations so people can watch your emotional state get angry. Right.

Lance Corbett [00:40:40] Instead

Vance Crowe [00:40:40] They were like a bang, bang, bang. Yeah.

Lance Corbett [00:40:44] Yeah. It's pretty crazy how that, and I think that, that that fed into a lot of the violence that was there, because I mean, that's the only emotion there is. You know what I mean? I think with, with lack of intelligence or, or lack of education, a lot of the, I mean, the base, the base core understanding is fear because that's what everybody understands. No matter how educated you are, people know how to be scared. Right? And, and, and that's just how it is. You know, that's a base core feeling that people have. And I think that when there's a lack of education and when there's a lack of intelligence, that's what people base off of. And anger is the easiest way to induce fear. You know, I'm angry, you need to be scared because I'm angry. You know what I'm saying? And that's just like the base communication when it comes to that. Like when, when you have coming from an area where you're already doing crime, you're not smart enough, you're not, you're not intelligent enough to you, you don't have the, the resources, which is what it is. I'm not saying that they're not smart enough, I'm just saying that they weren't provided the resources that they needed to learn how to process properly. You know? And I think, and I think that that would, that was like a big deal. But recently, just two days ago, the city of St.

Lance Corbett [00:42:19] Louis has motioned to shut down the workhouse. And my mom, I've been talking to her about it, and she's been on the board for been commenting and trying to keep up with everything. And they're finally shutting the workouts down. It's been years and years and years where everybody's been trying to push towards shutting the workouts down. And finally it got passed two days ago that they're shutting it down. So that's no longer gonna be a thing.

Vance Crowe [00:42:50] So does that mean we're, they'll be building new jails, or they'll ship people off to all different types of felony facilities where they can handle 'em? How does it work?

Lance Corbett [00:42:59] I'm not sure. I don't know. That's, but

Vance Crowe [00:43:02] From your perspective, the idea of like, shut this down. Yeah.

Lance Corbett [00:43:05] It doesn't

Vance Crowe [00:43:05] Really, so it was that bad?

Lance Corbett [00:43:08] Yes. I mean, it was unreal. I watched people get severely hurt over nothing. I mean, it was just, I I, it was traumatic. It was traumatic. So

Vance Crowe [00:43:20] You and I know each other from Jiujitsu, and Juujitsu is this fascinating scenario where you go live, but you have the full expectation that if the other person bests you, they get you in a choke hold and they can squeeze the life out of you that they don't, right? They, they, they,

Lance Corbett [00:43:36] When

Vance Crowe [00:43:36] You tap, they give up. What is the experience like of getting into a fight where there's no tapping and nobody may step in? What, what is, what is going through your head when you fight in that situation?

Lance Corbett [00:43:48] Helplessness. Helplessness. It's, it's when you get to that point, I mean, there was a couple of times where I had been jumped 3, 4, 5 guys. And it's just like when you have five people coming at you, you're just, you're, you're helpless. You are helpless. There is nothing you can do. No one is gonna save you. You don't know if you're gonna survive through it. You don't know what's gonna happen. You don't know how, you're just, it's just adrenaline. That's all it is. And it's 100% fear, 100% fear. That's all you have. Make it through what you can now and hopefully you can survive. I mean, that's just what it is. There's no, what

Vance Crowe [00:44:32] Happens to a person that visits that place in their, in their mind where they are helpless When you come back and you're back in regular land, how do your mind readjust

Lance Corbett [00:44:46] Therapy? I, I don't think, I don't think you can reach that point without having some type of PTSD or traumatic response system. You know, like I have a traumatic response system from that experience. I spent quite a, quite a few months in that jail, in that experience for a while. And I know that, like me, I use jujitsu as a therapy so I can okay. Retrain myself into thinking I have a little bit more control here. I know how to move. I know how to act. I know how to be, I know how to maneuver to a safer situation. You know what I'm saying? Like, if this were to ever happen again. And then also it teaches me that people aren't so bad either, because when I tap, they let go. You see what I'm saying? Like, I don't have to, I, and, and I've, I've regained from jujitsu, which is a, a, a, a newfound sense of trust with human, human humans. You know what I mean?

Vance Crowe [00:45:56] Well, and it's a funny, it's a funny piece of being in trust, because once you've learned even a little bit of skill now all a sudden, most regular people, you don't have to, it's not, you don't have to worry about 'em, it's just that your comfort with them is different. But you choose to get in with people that are way better than you. Yeah. And if they just decided that they didn't wanna let you go, they wouldn't have to. And yet, I have no fear that any of the guys at BJJ Lifestyle Academy are ever gonna let me go. Yeah,

Lance Corbett [00:46:22] Yeah, yeah. And, and I think that that's, that's a specific dynamic to, and I don't know, because I've never been in any other juujitsu schools, but I know that Mike, coach, coach Meyer, he talks about how much pride he takes into having a healthy experience for the jujitsu practitioner. And I think that, that what you're saying is, is probably specific to our school, to the ju to BJJ lifestyle where you know for sure that you can trust everybody because it's a family. We all know each other. We all, we all, you know, laugh and care about each other in an equal state. And it's, you know, there's, you leave the ego at the door. And, and I think that, that, because Coach Meyer takes so much importance into that, then it develops that environment. And I can't say, like I said, I've never trained in any other juujitsu school, but I like to think that that's specific to our school because it's a family. You know what I'm saying? Like, we're all, we're all family in my eyes, you know? And I do trust everybody there, you know, which might not be the case in anywhere else. You know what I'm saying?

Vance Crowe [00:47:43] When you got out of the workhouse or in the jail system, that first day that you're, you're released into the world, are you sitting there thinking, I'm gonna go back as quick as I can to where I came from? 'cause I want to do that thing? Are you thinking something totally different?

Lance Corbett [00:47:59] No, no. Absolutely not. It changed my life. It changed my life when I, 'cause I went, I went to prison and it, it was, I, I tell people that I'm comfortable with that. I talk to a lot, a lot like you. I tell people that it's the best thing that ever happened to me. It's the best thing that ever happened to me. Because before I went, I did wanna live that life. I did want to, I was okay with being homeless and on drugs and drinking and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And, and, and even though I was fighting, you know, I had fought my way out of it, you know, out of the homeless life and things like that, I was still ping with people that I shouldn't be around. You know what I mean? And that's what essentially ended me up in jail and in prison. And, and when all of that happened, and I spent all of that time where all of those people that I thought were my friends that I thought had my back, they weren't there. They, they, they, they weren't, they didn't write me letters. They didn't put money on my books. They didn't care about me. They didn't, they didn't give a shit at all, you know? Pardon my language. But they didn't care. And so that realization made me realize that maybe I should reprioritize myself and maybe I should take into consideration the life I actually wanna live. So when I got out, it was, it was, I hit the ground running. I was not going to be that person again.

Lance Corbett [00:49:31] It changed my life. I think some, some people, you know, and when you're in there, people talk about it like, oh, well, you know, I'm gonna go right back out and do all the same things and you know, my old ladies got this waiting on me, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, like, well, I knew that I didn't want to be that because I didn't wanna live my life, you know, like that. I just wanted to be a better person, you know? And, and I, and I saw, I saw what, what, what, what the outcome was of being, you know, that person. And I didn't want to be that person anymore. So when the day I left, it was like, what does it take, what's it gonna take for me to be a good member of society? What's it gonna take for me to, to let people know that, you know, I have my past, but I'm not that person anymore. What's it gonna take for, you know, and I've worked towards that. There are people, Vance, there are people out there that have no idea that I've been, that I've done that. There, there are people out there that I have no idea. I

Vance Crowe [00:50:40] Wouldn't have known if you hadn't told me. Yeah.

Lance Corbett [00:50:42] If

Vance Crowe [00:50:42] We hadn't had that discussion driving you in the car, I would never have known.

Lance Corbett [00:50:46] Yeah. And that's the thing, you know, like, and I take pride in that because I carry myself in a good way. I carry myself to where, like, you don't have to know, you know what I'm saying? I don't have to, my past does not have to define me as who I am. You know what I mean? And, and I remember sitting down with, with Luke when we were training one day, we had trained, well,

Vance Crowe [00:51:15] We've had on the podcast, he's a nurse. He's, he was on on around the coronavirus. Yeah. We have this past episode of people wanna go back and listen to it.

Lance Corbett [00:51:22] Yeah, yeah. Which is a great episode, by the way. He is very informative. Actually. I remember we were training and we sat down along the wall and I looked over at him and I had only been training for a handful of months, and he asked me, he was like, Hey man, you're doing really good. You know, somehow the topic came up of, of your, he, he said something about my intensity, right? In training, my intensity in training. And I said, yeah, that comes from, it comes from a life of trauma. I said, it, it comes from, it comes from jail, it comes from prison. You know, I'm trying to make myself a better person and that's why I'm here. And he looked over and he was just like, I could have never imagined that you would ever say that, you know? And that was rewarding to me because it was like, I, I finally, now I carry myself in a way that is good.

Vance Crowe [00:52:23] Yeah. A professional, you

Lance Corbett [00:52:24] Know what I'm saying? Like

Vance Crowe [00:52:24] Professional plan that has a career. Yes. Had no idea. Yeah, that's right.

Lance Corbett [00:52:28] Yeah. And that's, and that's awesome because it's like I, that showed me that I've done the work, I'm doing the work now that I'm not that person anymore. People do change. I'm not bound by my past. And not only am I not bound by my past, I've done all the steps that it takes for people to see me as a better person than I have been before.

Vance Crowe [00:52:53] How is the system when you leave prison? Like how has, how has the world treated you?

Lance Corbett [00:52:59] Difficult. It's been difficult. I have trouble getting apartments because there's background checks. I have trouble getting jobs. A lot of the places that say, you know, they hire felons, your felonies have to be seven years old, which is kind of a, it's kind of difficult. I mean, if you do two years in prison, you've got five years of time where you're out here trying to find a job. And these people that, you know, they give you a list when you, when you leave, they say, oh, these are all the places that hire felons. And you look at it and it's like, okay, home Depot, CVS, Walgreens, these are all respectable places. And you're like, oh, okay, well yeah, let me go check this out. And then when you put in the applications, they're like, oh, you're, you're, you need to wait five years before you can come, come talk to us. And it's like, well, five years is, I'm already gonna have a job by then. You know what I mean? Like, five years is a lot of time for me to figure out what I'm supposed to be doing. You know what I mean? So it's, it's just a different navigation system. They do provide resources for you. They do provide things for you to do, to work around that. And it's just, you have to go out and get it, you know, you have to work just a little bit harder.

Vance Crowe [00:54:21] I mean, like, you came to my house and it was like we were go, go, go working. Yeah, you were teaching me stuff. We had a great time. But you and I were able to have the experience of doing juujitsu together, driving, doing the podcast. If somebody was out there saying, I'd be open to hiring a felon, but I don't even, I don't even know what question to ask to find out, are they over the part of tumult? Like right. Are they gonna cause more problems for you? So if you were recommending to a business owner, Hey, you're gonna think about hiring a felon. This is what you should talk with that person about to find out what they're all about, what would you say?

Lance Corbett [00:54:55] I suggest having lunch with them. I suggest having lunch with them. Spend a little more time. Because if you can sit down and you can eat a meal with that person, then you can find out their vibe. It's gonna show, it's gonna show eventually over 20, 30 minutes, you're gonna know if they're really over it. By the way, they carry themselves, by the way they talk. I mean, how long is an interview? Some, some, some jobs they interview and, and it's like, we're just gonna read these questions and if you say the right things and then we're gonna hire you. It's like a five minute interview. You know? I mean, you're, you, you, you can't figure out what they're about, you know? Go out to eat with them, go, go have lunch with them and talk to them about their life, you know? And, and, and if they're not willing to be open about it, then that's your first red flag

Vance Crowe [00:55:56] Mean, you know what I mean? Like that. I think your meal thing is exactly right because we worked together. Yeah. And we were talking about the work and stuff, but then we sat down and had some Ring brothers beef burgers. Right.

Lance Corbett [00:56:05] The Yeah. Yeah. Delicious. And you

Vance Crowe [00:56:08] Big old grease. It was great that the, but there is something that happens when human beings eat together. Yeah. It's, it's so primal. I think it's all the way down to the primate level. Like Yeah. When you sit down and eat with somebody, the way they answer a question, the way you ask, the way you listen, everything is different. So I think your advice is very good there.

Lance Corbett [00:56:28] Yeah. I think when you sit down and you eat with somebody, it changes, just like you said, it changes the dynamic of like, who, you know, you're replenishing yourself, you're replenishing the nutrients that your body needs at the same time. And so it synchronizes, it synchronizes that moment with each other. And it's easier to tell where, where people are at. You know what I mean? Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:56:55] That's right. You know, I, I always, it took me about eight years to figure this out, but I can figure out what my wife's mood is based on how fast she's eating. Right? Like, is she

Lance Corbett [00:57:05] Anxiously

Vance Crowe [00:57:05] Eating? Is she eating really slowly and wants to talk? Is she trying to get to the dessert? Like, it's funny because when we get food around ourselves, and I'm sure I do the same thing, there's some base nature that is revealed that I don't think you can hide even if you want to. Yeah. No matter how many napkins or like sitting up straight, you do.

Lance Corbett [00:57:24] Yeah. That's interesting. That's great. Yeah, I've never really noticed that. I've never really noticed that the speed of people eating Well, you just did. Right? That's something I need to, that's a

Vance Crowe [00:57:36] Synchronization. Yeah.

Lance Corbett [00:57:37] Yeah. I need to think about that. I'm gonna start being more aware of that. Thank you.

Vance Crowe [00:57:43] So as you look around at the world and you said something that I completely agree with, fear is something that all of us can experience. As I look around at it, I look at left side, right side, authoritarian, libertarian, all of them are afraid of the other side. Right. And it causes them to like double down and triple down. If you're afraid of somebody and you've been afraid of people for a good reason, how do you approach people that you're afraid of? Maybe they have hurt you in the past, or they look like somebody that's gonna hurt you in the past. What should we know about getting over fear? Particularly when, like right now it feels like the stakes are real, you know, mess up and trust somebody you shouldn't, it's over.

Lance Corbett [00:58:29] Yeah. Getting over fear, I think getting over fear. You have to deal with yourself. I think there's a, there's a, there's an accountability with self that helps you get over fear of any other thing in your life. Knowing now, carrying yourself with integrity gives you the confidence to overcome any fear that you could ever have with anyone else. Because people are gonna judge, people are gonna see things the way they want to see 'em, regardless of what the real deal is. Right. And the truth never lies. And the truth will always come out. So if you carry yourself with integrity, no matter what decisions you make, you know within yourself that you're okay. And that's how I overcome my fear with other people. And, and when, when people say, you know, there was an, there was an experience I had recently where somebody had said something to me that wasn't true and they were, and I was like, okay. And it took me a couple of days to be like, man, is that really how they, is that really how they see me?

Lance Corbett [01:00:05] Is that really how they think about me? Right. And, and then after, after a couple days, I was like, it doesn't even matter because I know who I am and I know that, I know that I carry myself with integrity and I do the best that I can do, and that's all that I can do. So, you know, like I said, there's gonna be people that see whatever they want to see no matter what. I could tell you something until I'm blue in the face and you're gonna tell me that I'm purple in the face. I'm not gonna be able to change your mind. You think I'm purple in the face even though I'm blue in the face. But I know within myself that all I'm trying to do is the best that I can do. And that's all that matters. And if you carry yourself with integrity and trust within yourself, I think that that fear of others is really breaks down to the fear of like acceptance of others and the fear of like what you think they may be thinking, which is out of your control. So there's no, there's nothing you can do about that. Nothing whatsoever.

Vance Crowe [01:01:17] Yeah. I, I, I don't have the same life experience to compare it to, but the, the thought that comes to mind is, I was pretty okay with myself from a relatively young age, but a big transcending moment for me was when I started realizing like, if I'm honest with my wife or my brother or my really close friends about what I actually think, then if I don't try and control what their response is, I actually get a much better relationship out of it. Yeah. I tell them something that they may judge me for, they may not like, they may think I'm totally nuts, but the closer I get to just saying what I actually think instead of hiding it or changing it in some way Yeah. Always nets me a better relationship. And the thing I'm taking away from what you're saying is it's basically the same thing with yourself. Be honest with yourself. Yeah. And as long as you're honest with yourself, you're going to, you're, you're gonna get over these things you're afraid of.

Lance Corbett [01:02:11] Right. Exactly. And that's the thing, when you're honest with yourself, you have nothing to hide. You have nothing to hide. And it's like, I, my girlfriend I talked to, she, she makes fun of me because sometimes I have short-term memory loss. Right. And I've been hit in the head a lot, you know, so sometimes I have a little bit of short-term memory loss and she makes fun of me. She's like, you know, ah, your old man, your old fart. And I'll, and I, and I'll look at her and I say this, I say, well, one good thing about not really having very good memory is the fact that I tell the truth.

Vance Crowe [01:02:49] Because you can't, you can't lie. You

Lance Corbett [01:02:51] Can't. That doesn't, that doesn't, that's always gonna come back. That's always gonna come back no matter what, whether I remember it or not. You don't need to remember the truth because the truth remembers the truth. And the truth is always is so as long as I speak the truth, you don't, I don't need memory. I don't need memory and said, okay, this is my experience. This is what's going on, this is how I see it. And whether I remember it or not doesn't matter you. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. When you carry yourself with integrity, that's exactly what it is, is, is you're you, you're not trying to manipulate the situation. All you are is just being you and you and you trust that within yourself and that's enough.

Vance Crowe [01:03:41] You know what I'm saying? So this is an interesting thing because we always have our perceptions to handle Right. The world that we see it. And I had a chance to talk to the attorney general of the state of Missouri and the former sheriff of Mendocino County. And both of them said something that was somewhat along the same lines, which is, we have the perception that there are a bunch of innocent people in jail or a bunch of people that didn't do things that were that bad. But when, when they take a look at who is there, who they've locked up, who they've put away, they say, we're, we feel good about those decisions you've been inside of there. Do you think the people that are locked up should be locked up? Or is there something else that somebody that's in the law enforcement side just doesn't really understand about what's going on inside?

Lance Corbett [01:04:26] Hmm. Everybody that is in jail says they're innocent. Everybody's gonna say that 'cause they don't want to be there, you know? But I know from experience, 99.9% of the people that are in jail deserve to be there.

Vance Crowe [01:04:54] You would put it there.

Lance Corbett [01:04:55] I, yes. Wow. I think that most, I think that most people that are in there deserve to be there. Whether it's the case that they're in there for or not. I mean, like, so the people that are innocent for the case that they're in there for probably have done other crimes and they're involved themselves some other way that ended themselves up there. So whether it's an injustice or not, you think about this and it's like, you know, me with, with the reason why I went away was more of a righteous cause, right. Is like I went away because I, I was in a, in a, in a situation where I was trying to save someone's life, right. And that person ended up pressing charges on me and that's why I went away. But in the grand scheme of things, all the crime that I've committed, all the, the, the stuff that I've done, I paid for that through that crime, whether it was a righteous crime or not. And I do believe in righteous crimes. So, so I think that like, if you're involving yourself in that life and you end up in jail on a case that you're not, you know, you're, you're, you're not guilty for, I mean, what other crimes did you get away with that that, that you never got caught doing? You see what I'm saying?

Lance Corbett [01:06:26] So like 99% of that. Yeah, I do, I do believe that 99% of the people that spend time in jail, I don't necessarily think that the, the length of time they're in there is Right. I think that that needs to be readjusted because

Vance Crowe [01:06:43] Do you think people have forgotten what a year is really like that if you take a year from somebody's life that they are Yeah.

Lance Corbett [01:06:49] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:06:50] That's, I see. Well, because when I see the court cases handed out, I see somebody saying the difference between 15 years or 20 years, it's just five. Right? But like

Lance Corbett [01:07:01] Those are that's

Vance Crowe [01:07:02] A lot. That's time. Yeah. Yeah.

Lance Corbett [01:07:03] That's a lot of time. And, and you have it like this, you know, I don't wanna divulge too much into this topic because it's really touchy topic, but this is a point that a lot of people bring up when it comes to the time that you spend in jail. You know, you have drug dealers, right, that are spending life in jail. You know, nine outta 10 of those drug dealers are only dealing drugs so they can supply their own habit, right? They're not dealing drugs because they wanna f people up. You know what I'm saying? They, they're dealing drugs because they have their own drug problem and they're trying to supply that and they're trying to support their own drug problem. Well, you have them spending life in jail and then you look over and you have a child pedophile that's only spending five years and they're only doing 10% of the five years. And it's like, what's wrong here? You have people that are ruining children's lives that are out in a couple of months, and then you have a drug dealer that's trying to supply his own own habit that's in there for life, you know? And I think that some of that needs to be reevaluated, you know what I'm saying? I mean, both of them are crimes. They both deserve to be in jail, right? They both deserve to be in jail, but it's like, how much time are you really spending? How much time is this person really spending as opposed to this?

Lance Corbett [01:08:35] Is it really fair? You know what I'm saying? And, and, and it's like, I don't think it's, I don't think that that's right. I don't think that that's right. You know, the, the,

Vance Crowe [01:08:48] Were the cops fair to you? Did you feel like when you were, when you were in the care of people that could determine whether to hurt you or not, or put you in a safe place or not, did they use that responsibly?

Lance Corbett [01:09:02] Not at the workhouse. Not not at the workhouse, but I think in prison itself, yes, I was treated fairly. And when I was on my way to the workhouse, you know, not, not as much, the workhouse was horrible. There was crooked cops everywhere and it was just a, it was a, a very, it was a terrible experience all around, you know, but I'm, I'm, and I don't know, you know, that's like pretty much my only experience in jail. So I don't really know. I have like a couple days here, you know, in there, here and there when I was younger. But I think for the most part, once you get past jail and once they're in prison, yes, you're treated right, but the jail systems are a little different. Like it's, there's a lot of bias that is involved. There's a lot of, a lot of correction officers that like to flex, they like to sit, well, you're just a criminal you piece of, you know what I mean? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And, and it's like, look, I'm already feel like crap. You know what I'm saying? Like, I already feel like crap, I'm in jail, you know? So I don't know. It's a touch and go situation, you know?

Vance Crowe [01:10:28] Well, Lance, I mean, I am so fortunate to have you in my life because I think that you provide an aspect on, on every, on every part of my life, you have an aspect that's completely different than mine. And the perspectives are very helpful as I think all of us are trying to figure out, do we make changes to the police or to the law enforcement? Is it, is it, is it a racial problem? Is it a class problem? And I'm just grateful that every time I stop to talk with you, you, you're willing to be so honest and candid about what happened in your life. So thank you so much for coming on.

Lance Corbett [01:11:05] Yeah, absolutely. It's a pleasure talking to you always. I love it when you send me text messages or you gimme a ring and we talk 'em just about whatever man, see where you're at, you know what I mean? It's, it's, it's, it's a, it's, it's wonderful for me as well that you've kind of entered my life in the way you have, you know, I'm, I'm definitely grateful to get to know you

Vance Crowe [01:11:29] Well, brother, if somebody wanted to do work with you, if they wanted to hire you to do some landscaping, to do some wall building, to do some cutting down of trees, all that stuff, how could they do that?

Lance Corbett [01:11:42] I guess you can reach me on Facebook or I have an email if you want to put it in the notes, I'll shoot you, I'll shoot you my email so we can get that. That's, that's a real good way to get ahold of me. But yeah, through Facebook or through email, that's the best way to get ahold of me.

Vance Crowe [01:11:59] We'll make that happen. And just, just so everybody knows, my wife now goes out to our front lawn where we did the sodding and she touches the grass and she just smiles. And so that's what Lance did for me. That's

Lance Corbett [01:12:10] Awesome.

Vance Crowe [01:12:11] It's our front lawn is like one of those things that Annie loves. So Lance man, that's awesome. It's great to see you.

Lance Corbett [01:12:15] Yeah. Good seeing you. Good catching up with you.

Vance Crowe [01:12:20] Okay, that's gonna do it for my interview with Lance Corvett. Thank you so much to him for stopping by for a second time. I know I will have Lance on for many years into the future. You guys probably heard us talk about a place called BJJ Lifestyle Academy. That's where we've both done our juujitsu. Coach Meyer doesn't pay me to do this. I haven't been able to go back 'cause we're expecting a baby, but some people are back doing Juujitsu practice. And if you've ever thought about it and you live in the St. Louis area, go check out BJJ Lifestyle Academy. Mike Rth Meyer is old school Juujitsu artist and you will not find a culture that is better than the one right there. And don't forget, on Sunday night at seven 30 we have the, our, the as the Crow Flies Book Club, which we're talking about 1984 by George Orwell. So join us at seven 30 Central. If you'd like a link to that, you can either join the Articulate Ventures network or send me a Twitter DM and we'll get you invited. Thanks so much and we'll be back tomorrow with another interview. Ah.