Strange Donuts Founder on Depression, Cult Recovery, and Social Media Mob Attacks

Jason Bockman [00:00:00] I was, I had been smoking PCP for like a week, like every, I was up, I was fucked up for a week. And, and I went to this guy and he was like, what have you been doing? And I was like, I've been smoking PCP for about a week. And he was like, take this pill. And if you don't, if this is some work, you're lost. I'm Danica Flu, a grad student living in Fort Collins,

Vance Crowe [00:00:21] Colorado, and you are listening to the VS Grow podcast. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here today. Jason Bachman Strange Donuts Returns. Jason is an entrepreneur and a very interesting guy, and during this conversation, he opens up on a level that I've never heard on another podcast. I am excited that he was willing to come by, and I'm grateful that he was willing to share. Sharing is what people do when they walk in here to do a legacy interview. It's a chance for them to put out their stories and be able to capture their wisdom so they can pass it down to future generations. And now that we offer to transcribe your interview and put it into a leather bound book, you now have a chance to write an autobiography potentially in a single day. This is a wonderful experience to give to a loved one, and it's a great way for you to be able to capture things that matter to you and pass them down to future generations. If you're interested in learning more, go to Legacy Interviews dot com. Alright, without further ado, let's head to this very engaging conversation with my man, Jason Bachman. Jason Bachman, welcome back. What's up podcast?

Jason Bockman [00:01:32] Good to see you.

Vance Crowe [00:01:33] What is new man? What's going on?

Jason Bockman [00:01:36] I was at, I feel like when we talk, I gotta get ready to talk to you or something, but I was like, man, I don't need to like, I feel like nothing and everything, to be honest, like so much has changed in the past couple years and I don't know, new businesses, new projects, divorce moving moved. I was in a little bitty apartment for a long time and like, just living like it varied simply, right? And yeah, I don't know. Like one of the times we talked, I was talking about, you know, mental health stuff with me. I've like gotten a bunch of help. I feel like I'm a different person in a lot of different ways. And so, man, it's

Vance Crowe [00:02:18] Just shocking for me to hear that you would ever need help because you are like, you, you know, you the gas man, like you show up, you're like ev you know, pumping everybody up. Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:02:27] It's

Vance Crowe [00:02:27] Like life seems easy for you.

Jason Bockman [00:02:30] Yeah. No, I think in some ways there's like a lot of practice that went into it. And so like, almost to a detriment. I think for a long, long time I would be like, my head was so crazy that I just couldn't trust the way that I thought and felt. And I would, like, I could act very good, right? Like, it doesn't matter like how I feel, I would take right action. And I didn't ever really pay attention to the way that I felt. And I think that I, there's like a pendulum of like, you know, letting your feelings control you or me. And, but there was just these things, these like, that would constantly be in my head of like, you know, I'm a failure. I'm a Hoosier, I'm a piece of shit. I'm never gonna be anything like in the middle of doing good things, I, I I would just be tearing myself up. And that was like, just a constant. And

Vance Crowe [00:03:28] I like when your voice is doing that. Is there any part of it that's right. That, that like, you are doing something worthy of your brain, your voice of resistance being like, knock this shit off.

Jason Bockman [00:03:45] Ask, ask me that in another way.

Vance Crowe [00:03:47] Well, so you know, like my voice in my head, the one that's like telling me to get outta bed and get going and you're lazy. And what would your dad think? Like, in some ways it, I hate it, right? Like there's, because it, it creates like a dynamic between me and my, whatever inner voice. Yeah. But

Jason Bockman [00:04:04] Sometimes

Vance Crowe [00:04:05] I'm like, thank God I got all nervous about that and I didn't feel good about it, and I felt like a piece of shit because I was not doing the right thing. And that voice got me going the right direction.

Jason Bockman [00:04:15] I understand I would be doing the right thing. And regardless, I would feel and think that way, right? I do think there's something in me that like, there's, it would be like them, they think you're a piece of shit also. And so I would prove it to them. I don't know who they are, but I would work so hard and go so hard to prove it to whoever doubted me. You know what I mean? And really it, like, no one ever really did doubt me. I was the only person that like hated Jason. And, but I think that like, it's a double edged, it's like an asset and a defect, right? That like, I would go so hard and accomplish so much, but there was never any kind of like stopping point or gratification. Like I, or I, I won, like I won this lifetime achievement award. I sold a company and got a bunch of money, right? I, like, my daughter was supposed to be born with complications and she was born like entirely healthy. I like, there was all these big things that happened and I was talking to a kind, I was like, man, I feel like with any of these things, people would like take a minute and say, wow, good job. And I feel nothing. Like, I feel no kind of happiness at all. And that was a problem. So like, that was the one of the first times that I recognized that something was wrong. And so

Vance Crowe [00:05:44] When, when, like when you were not happy, did you know that other people were happy? Were you looking around being like, that guy shouldn't be as happy as me. Look, I got the this thing going.

Jason Bockman [00:05:53] Never. No, here's the, I went, there was something wrong with my nipple. I had like a little lump in my nipple, right? And so I went to the doctor, there's these two doctors, they were very attractive girls, right? And it was weird. I'm like standing there, I'm kind of buff, whatever, right? Dude. And this, these, these girls were just rubbing my nipples and it was going on for a while. It was, I don't know why I was told that part of it, but like, they're asking me these questions. One of 'em just kept touching me, and the other one was asking me these questions. And I was like, these are kind of weird questions. Like, I'm here for my nipple, right? And this lady just, she goes, how long have you been depressed? And I was like, I'm not. And she's like, well, I asked you all these questions because I felt like something was wrong. And if you have like a 20% on these questions, then you are clinically depressed. All kinds of stuff. Like, you know, do you think of harming yourself? Do you think all all kinds of stuff, right? And she's like, you have like a 95% on this survey. And I, and she was like, are you, like, are you think, are you, are you gonna harm yourself? And I was like, no lady. I'm here for my nipple. Right? And she was like, well, I think you should take a look at this. And I, and I said, I was like, never, like, I would never, and for a long time I haven't been a person of like, oh, I'll hide what I'm thinking or feeling. I'll tell anybody what I'm thinking or feeling. You know what I mean? I'm not like ashamed of like, like what flows through my head.

Jason Bockman [00:07:26] So it wasn't like secretive. And I just told these, I was like, look, like this is the only head I've ever had. I am not thinking or feeling abnormally this is the way that I am. Right. And I thought, I was like, don't. And I did say like, don't most people think this way. And she was like, absolutely not. And my response to her was, well, they are lying, right? They're lying to you about these answers. 'cause I don't understand how people would not answer the way that I did. And I went, I went to a counselor after that and started like a very like, like surface level process of, of, of getting better. And one of the first things that the guy told me to do, because I would get complimented a lot, right? Like, I've been since you've, I've sat here, you've complimented a couple times. And I, like the guy said, I need to write down the compliments and I need to say I accept that. He's like, it's gonna be very awkward for a while, but when someone gives you a compliment, you need to say, I accept that. And it started to like sink into my brain a little bit. Like really hear people, like for instance, if somebody said like, cool sweatshirt, I'd be like, oh, well it was on sale. I got, you know what I mean? I would discount everything anybody said to me. Yeah, that's a part of your personality right? About good things about me. I would be like, no, I would discount it and like not accept it. And I said to this guy, I was like, you know, after a little bit of us doing that, I was like, you know, I've, I've, there's two people that hate Jason. One is me and the other is my now ex-wife, you know?

Jason Bockman [00:09:00] And he was like, well, we can work on you. You know, and that, that, that just started this big process. And so

Vance Crowe [00:09:07] How did you choose the person that you were gonna be like, I'm gonna tell you all of my inner workings in my mind,

Jason Bockman [00:09:13] This I've, I would rather do that with a stranger than like talk about baseball. Like, I had very rarely small talk, you know? I'm like, what do you love? You know, what do you, what brings you joy? Like to strangers? And so I've, I I feel like for a long time I've, I, I don't care. I'll tell anybody anything. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:09:32] You're extremely open to strangers. You're also a guy that is broken free from a literal cult. So like, you worrying about coming under the spell of somebody is not altogether dangerous. But I, I feel this with other counselors, like when somebody says, oh, I'm thinking about going to see counselors, on the one hand I'm like, Hey, is there anything I can do? Right? Is there something? And I think there is a place for somebody that has seen a lot is like, recognizes there are limitations, but all therapists, psychologists, counselors, they all have an orientation. They have a way that they believe the mind works. And some of them might be like, oh, hey Jason, we got some pills here and all you gotta do is just take a couple. And then I've done that better.

Jason Bockman [00:10:10] I went to a doctor and he was like, what? I mean, this is, I was, I had been smoking PCP for like a week, like every, I was up, I was fucked up for a week. And, and I went to this guy and he was like, what have you been doing? And I was like, I've been smoking PCP for about a week. And he was like, take this pill and if you don't, if this is some work, you're lost. Right? I've been to those people that just medicate you. I hardly take ibuprofen. You know what I mean? I'm like, I don't,

Vance Crowe [00:10:38] You're taking PCP

Jason Bockman [00:10:39] Oh for a while. I don't know. I've, I did that for a long, long, I did that one of the first times I ever used Dr. I'm 12 years old. I smoked PCP. Yeah. Why? But

Vance Crowe [00:10:52] That had to literally change the function

Jason Bockman [00:10:54] Of my brain. Oh, I am sure I am so sure of it. It it absolutely it did. But like this guy, the cool thing about this counselor that I saw

Vance Crowe [00:11:03] Is he

Jason Bockman [00:11:04] Said, I would tell him stuff and he wouldn't be like, how does that make you feel? You know, he wasn't, that dude just parroting stuff back to me. He would say, okay, here's a solution. Take this action. Right? And he would text me, he would say stuff like, you're a good man. You deserve to be happy. You are not crazy. Right? And I end up going doing this like, other therapy stuff and like some of like, you know, I feel a little more comfortable talking about this stuff, but I grew up like very dysfunctionally. Right. And like some of like the, like the, the symptoms of like growing up this way, like, you know, like in a, I don't need to get too far into it, but a very abusive upbringing Right. Is like not trusting your own intuition. Right. And so, like, when I, I would not trust the way that I thought or felt at all. And now that that stuff is like, started to clear up, I can, I, I don't have to like ask permission from anybody about like, the way that I think or feel or what I want to do. I'm like, this is bright for me and I do this now. So

Vance Crowe [00:12:12] I mean, you're like the biggest, you know, strongest but also like most gracious, happiest person. So to me, listening to you say you had struggles frightens me a little bit. Like I feel myself being like, oh shit, if, if Jason can have problems and fucking any one of us could get, could we do though pulled down by that? Right.

Jason Bockman [00:12:35] Of course. I think all of us do though. And I think that's some of the stuff that like gets, I don't know,

Vance Crowe [00:12:41] Ma male depression or male, like whatever it is that gets them down,

Jason Bockman [00:12:46] Man,

Vance Crowe [00:12:46] I am real scared of that. And it's because I've started hitting the age where I have other people around me. Maybe I'm, don't spend that much time with them, but they got like sucked into some hole and like, man, I don't want that. Like, I'm fortunate that no one I'm close with has taken their life. But like one of my good friends, his 30-year-old son killed himself. Mm. Like smart guy driven was an engineer, like great mind, but something just wasn't right. And I feel like it is happening with increasing frequency. What in the hell is going on? Why, why is this happening?

Jason Bockman [00:13:25] I don't know. I think an easy thing to say is like, we live this life now of like, look at me. And this has been said a million times. This isn't like an original thought, but like, you ever get caught on your phone just looking at Instagram?

Vance Crowe [00:13:38] Yeah, just Twitter,

Jason Bockman [00:13:40] Facebook, whatever. And like by the end of doing that, I am, no matter what I'm doing, I'm a, I'm a piece of shit. You know what I mean? Like, these people's lives look so good and there is something wrong with me. And I think it's weird. Like, I don't know, there's not like, I am fortunate to have really good friends, a group of, of I'd, I'd say a large group of good friends and then a tight group of like people that I can tell anything to, you know, I can be undressed in front of like, and feeling some sense of belonging. And not only belonging, but not individualism. Like, oh, I'm not the, I'm not alone in the way that I think and feel. I'm not alone thinking this is wrong. And I think a lot of people don't have that anymore. And I, and I, I don't know, I see people just like trying to look good and I'm like, man, we don't have to,

Vance Crowe [00:14:38] Well, and they're not trying to look good in the context of we're doing this ceremony where everybody's bringing their wives and their kids to this thing. It's like, I'm gonna go on parade all the time over a digital space where there's nobody here interacting with me. It's just adulation. You know? One of the biggest social technologies I think we've lost in society is community organizations. Like the things that people get go to, to like, spend time with one another church

Jason Bockman [00:15:07] Temple.

Vance Crowe [00:15:08] Sure. That, or, or like Rotary or whatever, like the, the groups that people used to get together so that they ran into people that were like them kind of, but also pretty different has gone virtually down to zero. So if you don't intrinsically go out and find your own group of friends, you don't have a ready-made group of friends. Most people are totally adrift islands in their own houses

Jason Bockman [00:15:29] And for, and exacerbated by COVID. Right. I was thinking about this, like, I'm a a pretty accepting open person, right? I listen to like political podcasts on like both sides. And I, I'm, I'm like, I need to pump the brakes on, listen to any of that shit for real. Because it just, like, it's all hate. It seems like anymore, there is no like common bond anymore where we meet and like what, like what you're talking about. But I started like fucking hating people, right? Like, I'll see people now, I like, and I'm still like working out of it and whatever. I like, I don't need to apologize for my judgment. I'll be like super, like I'll see the people with masks on still. Right? And like, I just saw somebody walking in this building with like, they put their mask on their kid. I don't know their situation. I don't know if like the kid has leukemia or whatever, you know, I have no fucking clue. But in my, I was like, fuck you. Like what are you doing this for? And I heard something this guy said,

Vance Crowe [00:16:27] I feel this way. Like exactly what you're describing. Yeah. Like I'm particularly if it's a man, if it's a, if it's a kid or a mom, like, I'm like, all right, whatever. They're scared. Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:16:36] But

Vance Crowe [00:16:37] For a man, I'm like, you're not adding to the positivity of things that are working

Jason Bockman [00:16:43] For sure. I haven't said anything. 'cause I haven't, I'm, I'm like, I'll, I'll ask people stuff sometimes, right? Like, Hey, why do you do this? What do you do that whatever. I feel like that topic for whatever reason, and I, I know the reason. I mean, I was like the brunt of like a bunch of bullshit. I remember being on like, like business was so hard right? During that. And I, when I see that, I associate it with like, I was on some lit, we were following everything the CDC was saying to do Right? Until I was like, wait, this is fucking stupid. Right? Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:17:14] It, everybody tried that was like, Hey, I'm in a band together. Right? We see these people singing songs on their balcony in Italy. We can get along like them, right? I'll do whatever. Yeah. Then you find out like, oh, they're not asking. They're telling.

Jason Bockman [00:17:26] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:17:26] And they're telling, and they're not actually following the same rules that they're telling us.

Jason Bockman [00:17:31] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:17:31] And so, like, this is like, you're trying to wrap me up in a riddle that I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna keep playing.

Jason Bockman [00:17:37] Yes. And I see that, and it's a symbol of that to me, right? Where I'm like, what are you still doing this for? Like, have you not read anything about,

Vance Crowe [00:17:45] Can you imagine what the life is of a, of a man that is wearing a mask though? Like what? He must be seeing how different his life must be than yours. Than mine. Certainly.

Jason Bockman [00:17:53] Yeah. Either. So somebody said this, I can't remember who it was like, whatever, I don't care. I have friends like on ever, I, I I don't care. Right? Well, your political affiliations are, or sexuality. I, I don't give a shit. I don't care. But this, this made a lot of sense. I think people who had like, make America great again, hats on. I was like, you're a fucking asshole to me. Like, immediately I was like, you're

Vance Crowe [00:18:18] Wearing a flag. You're, and that flag is, I am not on these people's teeth. Right?

Jason Bockman [00:18:22] I'm like, man, fuck you dude. Okay. You're right. Regardless of whether like I agree with, I don't know, I could find things to that. I agree with you. This dude said that the mask being worn now is the Make America Great again hat of liberals. Right. Or of like the far left. Right. And I'm like, and then the make America great. Like those are like far right weirdos. Like I'd see, I, I hit a point, I started getting like ashamed of the American flag. I'm, I lo I love America, right? I'm like very aware of like, you know, the, I'm, I'm grateful for the things that we have here and, and, and, and, and the luxuries that we're afforded that most people in the world don't get. Right. I've lived in, gone to spend a lot of time in those places. I would see people with like these MAGA hats and then like American flags on their truck. And I associated the two and I started being like, ugh, when I saw the American flag.

Vance Crowe [00:19:15] But it goes exactly to your point about people needing to belong. Because wearing that hat, while it definitely alienates you from a bunch of people, there's a whole bunch of people that are like, oh yeah. Like yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:19:27] You

Vance Crowe [00:19:27] Go from being the person that nobody noticed in the grocery store to every once in a while having a guy like give you a nod. Well

Jason Bockman [00:19:32] Nod. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:19:33] A little head shake. And you know, you talk about people wanting validation in their lives and that's, that's one as the as much hate as you're willing to put up with, then you get adulation by your side.

Jason Bockman [00:19:44] Yeah. I, and then come to find out most of the hate you're that's coming your way or most of the adulation coming your way is fake. Right?

Vance Crowe [00:19:56] You mean like bots? Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:19:59] What the fuck,

Vance Crowe [00:20:01] How crazy is it that our, can

Jason Bockman [00:20:03] I cut? I'm cut. Yeah. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:20:05] I like, I have not talked about the Twitter files or any of the stuff that the government is doing because I think people look at it and they're like, oh yeah, that's just the stuff the government gets into. And you're like, no, wait a second. Look. Like, look, they were legitimately propagandizing inside of our country. Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:20:20] Right.

Vance Crowe [00:20:20] I either side doesn't matter if, if it was the opposite side and Trump's White House was really good with, with Twitter, we would still be like, Hey, what the fuck are you doing? You're not allowed to choose what information we listened to, what information other people listened to. Fuck you. When

Jason Bockman [00:20:36] I was in that cult, one of the first things they said to me is, don't watch the news. We will watch the news and tell you what is important. And I ended up, I, at first I was like, awesome. I was like, cool. These people who know better than me will tell me what to, to know. You know? And I just like ate it up. And that was, I think one of, they would do things to shock you, right? Like say racist shit or whatever. Right. Weird, crazy stuff. And then like, if you didn't buck at it, like, you know, they were seeing who bucked and like if,

Vance Crowe [00:21:09] And those people would be cold from the hurry

Jason Bockman [00:21:11] Gone. Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:21:12] Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:21:12] And then like after like that initial stuff, that's when they started saying like, we'll, we'll tell you what to think. And like, it was seriously like a, a relief. Like, oh man, like, I'm worried about all these things in the world. It's awesome that I have somebody else that'll take care of that for me.

Vance Crowe [00:21:29] Yeah. I strongly believe that most of the topics that people believe politically, the only reason they're watching the pundit, and it could be Ben Shapiro to, you know, whoever the young topics, hot

Jason Bockman [00:21:41] Tape America. Right, right. The

Vance Crowe [00:21:42] All you're trying to do is be like, all right, the world is really complicated. Take this issue and tell me which side is the good guy side and which guy is the bad guy side. Yeah. Now, when you're listening to it and you hear your good guy side, you're like, nuh, I have it all reasoned out. I understand the nuance. What you don't realize is just like you're accusing them of only seeing these clips. All of your ideas are built on somebody being like, this guy good, that guy bad.

Jason Bockman [00:22:03] Yeah, for sure. I, I couldn't agree more. And I, I, I listen to both of those podcasts, right? And it's crazy thinking about like, man, you take the same issue. And like what they do with the information is completely different sides of it. There is zero common ground and it's easy to fall into those things. But

Vance Crowe [00:22:27] What do you, what do you think happens to the human mind? Because we got here by talking about men being depressed and, and having these problems. Going to a counselor, potentially getting around somebody that wants to put you on medication or Yeah.

Jason Bockman [00:22:40] You

Vance Crowe [00:22:40] From information.

Jason Bockman [00:22:43] Ask that question one more time.

Vance Crowe [00:22:44] Well, I don't really have a question other than to say like, we were the, we got to a place where we're like, we think the media is having a really big impact on like, what, what we think is wrong with other people around us, when really that's the way our minds are working.

Jason Bockman [00:23:00] I said something, you've seen my social media stuff, strange donuts at all handles, whatever, right? We had this thing, it was all, it was like peanut filled peanut butter, blah, da da. And I made this post and I said, if I was like, you know, if you have a peanut or allergy, this is your ticket off the planet, right? And it was just funny. Whatever. I, I don't, I don't, I don't care. It was this quip, right? There was a comment from Alberta, Canada was the first one. Like, you know, you a piece of shit, whatever. And then like, all it, it was like no one locally, it was like California, Canada, Australia. And you could see, and I was looking at these, I was like, holy shit man, these are bots. Like, and I don't give a shit. And they'd be like, delete this, delete your account. And they like started slamming us on like, on Google reviews and all this stuff. And I just was like, no, I'm not, I'm not doing any of that. I just kept doing other stuff. And one guy came into the store and he was like, shaking. And I was like, he was like, what's up dude? He was like, you, you said that kids should kill themselves. He's a little bit older guy. And I was like, where, when did I do that? And he was like, you said something. And this dude, it had been distilled down to this guy, you know, that I was telling kids they should kill themselves. And I was like, no man, here's this post. I was like, this is, and he was like, oh, that's, that's it. And I was like, yeah. And he goes, and he bought some donuts, right? And I think that like, I don't know,

Vance Crowe [00:24:34] That's almost like swatting you, right? Like if you, if you like, get somebody or groups of people so worked up that they're like coming in to physically be in your presence that like, because they're so angry. That's crazy.

Jason Bockman [00:24:49] Yeah. Oh, for sure.

Vance Crowe [00:24:50] Who's doing it?

Jason Bockman [00:24:52] I don't know. I don't know. Like, what was it, how many, what was the percentage of bots that were on Twitter?

Vance Crowe [00:24:57] It was a lot

Jason Bockman [00:25:00] 20. There, there was an, there was an an amount, this is before the purchase went through. This is like, oh,

Vance Crowe [00:25:05] That's right. 'cause he started complaining being like, whoa, whoa, whoa. He's backing out

Jason Bockman [00:25:08] Up like this. You don't really have all these users. The valuation is wrong. And I can't remember what the number was, but I don't know. I'm sure it's, I don't even know some of that. I don't even, I'm like, I don't even care. I've tried. So like, I have like as little as I can be on social media.

Vance Crowe [00:25:24] Yeah, but you're a social media king. Like, so people listening to this don't know you've, you have a donut shop and instead of it just being like, oh, hum, you're doing like furniture style commercials from the eighties,

Jason Bockman [00:25:36] We're doing all kinds of stuff. And I get, I get paid now by big brands to do that stuff for them, right? Like, to be a consultant or to film their content or direct their content, write commercials. I do that now and yeah, for sure I do that. I hate it. Not I, I don't like what, like having to be a part of it all the time. I view it now as like a place to drop in, right? Where I used to view it as a place to get my information, a place to get validation, a place to like, ooh, how many likes does this thing get? You know? And I see my kids now, I have a six and 7-year-old the way my daughter grabs the phone and then she's like, Hey everyone, I'm here at the park, blah, blah. And I'm like, holy shit, she's talking like some fucking YouTuber. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't want my daughter thinking that that's what life is about. You

Vance Crowe [00:26:29] Don't want her to be an Instagram

Jason Bockman [00:26:31] Star? Hell no. Right? I mean, if that's what she wants to do, that's cool, you know? But like, no, we need to have like actual skills and actual things that we're doing, not like the, the, the like capturing of content is, is not valuable in and of itself, right? Like if you're good at gymnastics or soccer or, you know, drawing and

Vance Crowe [00:26:51] Wiring a circuit or doing

Jason Bockman [00:26:53] Whatever, whatever that is. Like, that's, that's the skill. Not, and that's the payoff, the intrinsic value from that, not the validation from other people saying that's good.

Vance Crowe [00:27:08] I'm starting to wonder if the way our cities are set up, just like straight up the, the, the way people are packed in, if you actually can't have a childhood, that you develop the skills that get you ready for, for regular life. Like for me, I grew up in a place where you couldn't go shoot like a 20 in my backyard, but you could definitely shoot a BB gun and I could go anywhere over my entire town. I could like ride my bike.

Jason Bockman [00:27:34] You know,

Vance Crowe [00:27:34] As I got older, I was able to go further and further away. You get to blow stuff up, you get to, none of that stuff happens. Now,

Jason Bockman [00:27:43] I try to make that for my kids, right? Like let them live dangerously, right? Like, and, and we, I do

Vance Crowe [00:27:50] Don't you become that dad then, aren't you like, oh, that, that dad, we can't let our kids be around that dad.

Jason Bockman [00:27:55] No, I, dude, it is crazy that what seems normal to me to talk about. Like, people are like, I wish I could talk like you or do what you, I'm like, who's telling you you can't, you know what I'm saying? Like, no, if this is the way and this is what feels good, and I've, I have no reservations anymore about seeing something somebody else does well and wanting that as a part of my life. Like, do we, I went, I took my kids to Disney and it was fucking awesome. It was so awesome. It was just, I just got choked up for a second. It was just me and them. It was awesome. I went and I prepaid for this thing that you had to like book months in advance. My son made a lightsaber and I was there and they were, there's these families walking around with like, you know, Johnson Disney

Vance Crowe [00:28:40] Trip 2013,

Jason Bockman [00:28:42] Blah, blah, whatever, you know what I'm saying? Like, it was 2021, whatever it was. But like, I was like, man, I wish I could like do that. I wish I was like that guy. And I'm like, oh, it's as easy as printing the shirt. Just go print the shirt and you and I can do that. I thought they were them and I was me and I, but no, I can learn from them. I can do that. And I don't, I don't care. Like if I'm that dad or whatever, like none of them matter to me what they think and feel about me. My kids matter. Right? And people have something to say about that. Like, I really don't care to listen,

Vance Crowe [00:29:20] Man. Speaking of experiences, I think actually one of the best things that happen when two men get together is when they have children. Like to be able to just talk about like, what were those experiences that were valuable? And yesterday I was like kind of frustrated 'cause trying to get back to the regular life, but my daughter's school that she goes to is still outta session. So I take it a day. My wife takes a day where we take off at work. And at first I was like, so resenting it. 'cause I was like, I have so much work to do. But I was like, all right, but what could I do? And we used to, when she was an infant and COVID was going on, we used to go to the art museum. So I'd push her around in the stroller. Yeah. And I got to see the first time she ever noticed color, and she had this like, euphoric giggling when she would see all the colorful paintings and stuff. So I finally take her back, only now she's two years old. Her infant sister in the stroller yesterday, just slept through the whole thing. But my daughter would go to these paintings and she's two years old and she would be like leaning into them as she's staring completely wide-eyed at this like, abstract painting of a woman without a shirt on or a giant ship with all these people on it. And you watch your children see something like she saw pictures from 15 hundreds and she could be like the baby Jesus right there, right. To watch a child watch something so intensely, like they can with beautiful art is one of the greatest experiences of my adult fatherhood.

Jason Bockman [00:30:46] I agreed, dude, I, I was with my kids the other day, this a couple weeks ago when I said something like, we prayed before we ate or something like that. And I cussed and they're like, you can't cuss when you're talking to God. And I was like, no, God's like my friend. Sometimes when I'm like frustrated I'm driving my car, I'm like, what's up, motherfucker. Like, you know, and they were like, and I was like, in, in my house, if they need to, they can cuss, right? Like, I don't like censor their, if they's like, I hate you to their sister or brother. I'm like, Hey, you know, no you don't. You love each other, hug each other, whatever. Outside of that. My daughters walks around, she's like, fuck

Vance Crowe [00:31:23] Shit,

Jason Bockman [00:31:23] Fuck whatever. I'm like, if she's like frustrated about something and it's appropriate and sometimes it's just funny. But I was like, you know, we talk like that here, we're friends. Right? I talk like that with my friend, God is my friend. And I was thinking about that like, man, I wish somebody would've told me that, that there's not like this vengeful thing coming to get me. That there's just something that's my friend. More than that. Like, I don't know, one big thing that I've learned over this past year is like, how I feel is not right or wrong, it's just the way that I feel, right? I don't need to justify it or explain it or be ashamed of it or afraid of it. It just is the way that I feel. I don't know. I like seeing things with my kids now. And I, I've started doing this like over the past two years before we go to bed. I don't like pray with them, but I say like, you know, tell me something you're grateful for, something you're proud of and something that you did to help somebody else. You know? And they do that every night. And I'm like, really what I'm teaching them is prayer, right? Like really what I'm teaching 'em is a way to look at life and like at the end of the day, take inventory of what happened that day to see what you can do better and what you did good. Right? And I don't know, it just, it, it works well for me and it works well with them. And I like seeing my kids be free in their thinking and feeling and acting. That's the only thing that matters to me, right? Because you see how we, like, I talked to these adults like, oh, I wish I could talk like you.

Jason Bockman [00:32:57] And I'm like that. I already said like, who told you that you couldn't, I know who told 'em they could. Everybody did. Their fucking mom did. Their dad did. Their family did. And I'm like, I refuse to be that guy.

Vance Crowe [00:33:08] You know, the the thing that I'm coming down to that is really important for parents to do, and as I hear you describing this, it's just right in line with that is your responsibility as a child is, or as a parent of a child, is to teach them how to be observant. How to notice things. Because most of what gets people to be like, oh, I wish I could say that. Are, are these paper walls and they look real, right? They look like, oh, you're not allowed to walk through 'em. But imagine being in one of those Japanese tea houses, right? Like where you realize like, wait a second, you've, you've kept me locked up in this little room here. I can just walk through the wall and I'm in a new room. And yeah, people are like, you're not allowed to do that. But the rules, like, you only get to live this life once. And so if you can observe which rules are made of paper walls and which ones are actual rules that benefit you to participate in, man, that's a big part of being a dad.

Jason Bockman [00:34:01] Yeah. I agree man. I, yeah, I've noticed stuff with them. Somebody told me this, someone divorced, right? I was on this cruise just with the kids a couple weeks ago, and this lady just randomly started talking to me. And again, I was like, just start talking to her about, here you go. And she's like, you know, I think that you meet people on, on purpose sometimes. I was like, yeah, I agree with that. She was like, do you mind if I be frank with you? I was like, yeah. And she's, I go ahead and she goes like, your daughter's gonna be fucked up. And I was like, what? And she's like, you seem like a great dad. You seem like you're doing awesome stuff with your kid, kid. Your daughter's gonna have some stuff that's wrong with her because of this divorce. It's just is the way it is. Right? And she was like, you need, you need to be her partner and you need to fill her up. And I'm not saying like telling her she's pretty, she's smart. She's, you know, courageous. Like I'm talking about like listening to her and asking her, why do you feel that way? How did that, what did that do to you? What did that, you know, what do you think about this? And like, instead of like me pouring into her, me being like pulling out of her what she thinks and feels and validating whatever that is. And I've been doing that since then, dude. And my, my daughter, it's kind of hot and cold. You know how she is would be sometimes. But like for the past few months, I, I've been doing what this lady talked about and she said, I don't know, I was at the donut shop.

Jason Bockman [00:35:33] I had to take her to work 'cause school was out. And I walked by her and I just picked her up and I kissed her and squeezed her, you know what I mean? And, and danced with her for a minute where I would usually be maybe a little embarrassed to do some of that stuff. But I'm like, there's nothing more important than the way this little girl feels. Right. Or what she's being shown. And the manager at the store said, she's like, you put, you put Benny down and walked into the other room. And Benny goes, she's like, my daddy loves me, right? And I was like, fuck yeah, kid. Like know that, that like, I got your back.

Vance Crowe [00:36:14] And dude, like for raising girls,

Jason Bockman [00:36:17] That

Vance Crowe [00:36:17] Is something important. I have a dad and he loves me, so I don't need that love somewhere else. I can find the right kind of love to be romantically involved with. Like, I think you and I have talked about this off camera. Like, I want my daughter to fall in love with a man that is more like the man I am now than the man that I was before I met her mom. And like, 'cause that dude is not the guy that I want her to emulate and or, you know, like wanna be around or be attracted to. And so you, what what I figured out from all of this is like, that's guy is still in me, right? Yeah. So you just have to make sure that the way that I, the way I'm navigating through life, I don't leverage those skills that made me that guy because those are the ones she's gonna watch me using and doing. Not necessarily the the one, the skills you use when you're, you know, married and connected with one person.

Jason Bockman [00:37:14] Yep. Like, and life squeezed you. It's crazy how much they pay attention.

Vance Crowe [00:37:20] What is divorce? Divorce like in a modern age?

Jason Bockman [00:37:26] For me, initially there was like, so I was the one that said like, I can't do this anymore. Right? Like, we had a talk and I said, you know, what do you think about our relationship? And she said, you know, I I wouldn't blame you if you left me. Right? And like that stayed there. We talked about that. It was like, I was so afraid of leaving because, you know, what would it do to my kids and the counselor? And of saying to me like, you know, well, what will it do to your kids to see your relationship now? And them think that is what love is, you know, because it's like very combative and I don't, we had to talk and I just said, I was like, I can't, you know, I'm, I'm good. I left for a few months and then like, like, you know, couch hopped for a while and then went to mediation and, and did a divorce. And there was personally, there was like, you know, a lot of people, like you reacted to like me, like saying, admitting that I have problems. You know, a lot of people were like, shit man, if Jason can't stay married, like, how can I, because like, things looked good, you know what I mean? And so it was initially, I, I don't know how much to say. Like, we went to mediation, which I thought was good to say.

Jason Bockman [00:38:58] Like, and I just went with an offer. And my offer was like, you can have everything, right? So like, here's all the money, here's all the stuff and I'll take all the debt and boom. 'cause I was like, I don't want her to, to struggle or suffer, you know? 'cause that doesn't do anything good to my kids. And I've always, you know, relied on myself and I know I can make money. I just make money. Right? And I do stuff that I'm aware of and create opportunities, right. So I'm like, I will be fine. I don't know that she has that skillset. Right. Which isn't a knock on her. And so it started out, I know there was a lot of guilt, a lot of shame and, you know, questioning myself. And we told the kids, and I, you know, when we told the kids I had an apartment already, I took 'em to the apartment and they were like, awesome, whatever. Right? And that really is their reaction. It was, it, it that was short-lived, right? I don't know if they understood the, like, the finality of, of what that meant. And so they had problems. We got like a, a counselor for my son and he was very angry. My daughter was like, pretty aloof, you know? And I just need to be aware of the time a little bit. Boom, I gotta leave in 20, 20 minutes. So like, he got a counselor. It helped tremendously. And I was at a baseball game with the kids and it was Albert Will's last game.

Jason Bockman [00:40:35] I made like a post about this on Instagram, but I was, I was like at the game with them. They had cotton candy. It's Albert Pool's last game in St. Louis. He was as a, as a dodger, right? And I'm explaining like, the game and like, we're having fun and, and, but inside it was just like, man, I feel so bad for being here alone with my kids and the way the situation happened and blah, blah, blah. And this guy said to me after the game, he goes, Hey, you got a beautiful family. And I go, I was like, what? He's like, you, you three, you're a beautiful family. You mind if I take a picture for you? I was like, and it was like, it the first occurrence to me that like, oh, this is my family. It's us three. You know? It's not like the broken thing. It's, this is just what the family looks like right now. And it was like, I believe in, in God, like I've said, and like, I think God talks through other people. I don't think that God gives people messages or maybe it hasn't. I, I I don't know.

Vance Crowe [00:41:40] The way he communicates to you.

Jason Bockman [00:41:42] Yeah. Like, and it was this stranger saying like, you're a family, it's beautiful, you're a good dad. And I was like, it was the first time that I saw it for myself, you know? And from then, 'cause I think there was like a lot of like performative emotions and actions and stuff. I was like fathering them, like impotently, you know, like, almost like apologetically, you know what I mean? Like depressed. I was super depressed. And that was the first time where I was like, oh, this is a choice at this point. You know? This is a choice at this point to like stand up, own this situation fully and make the best of it. And it's actually pretty good, you know? And I am pretty good and I am better than I think I've ever been. Not, I think I know I'm better mentally, emotionally, just like my thought life. And like, I'm not perfect by any means, but like, I'm better than I've ever been. So like, that's okay to own that too. I don't need to be apologetic about it. I don't know. So it hasn't been easy. And I think that some of that stuff like COVID and the courts being shut down, exacerbated like wait times and stuff, you know, it's, it, it takes a long time. And I don't know,

Vance Crowe [00:43:00] How do you, you know,

Jason Bockman [00:43:02] Even

Vance Crowe [00:43:02] If she's not your wife, yeah. You now have a mother of your children, right? Like, how does that, how

Jason Bockman [00:43:07] Does that

Vance Crowe [00:43:08] Engagement go?

Jason Bockman [00:43:11] Some of that stuff I can't talk about. It hasn't. That has, it's been messy for sure. I try. There's something, there's this book called Biff, right? BIFF. And I think, I feel like in difficult situations is a good way to live. It's a brief, informative firm and factual, right? So my interactions are brief. I will meet you here at this time. You know, so it's brief, informative. I gave you all the information you need. It's factual. There's not like any feeling or emotion in that. And I think like, I, that's a good way to like, for negotiations in general. But now we are no longer, like, our relationship is more like played in Benny, LLC, you know? And so our interactions are, are just, are just about the kids. I don't, you're not a person I share my feelings with anymore. I hope at some point it's like a little more cordial, you know? And, but it's just not right now.

Vance Crowe [00:44:13] So you're sitting here, you got your checkered shoes on, you got your fun, you know, you're always got strange gear on. Of course.

Jason Bockman [00:44:20] This, this is up late. This is something else I'm working on.

Vance Crowe [00:44:22] What is that? This

Jason Bockman [00:44:23] Is a, I got tired. I love St. Louis dude, but like, I don't sleep a lot and I'd be up late wanting some food and there's nowhere to eat. So I was like, man, why don't we just do this ourselves? And so probably two weeks from right now at the corner of Vwe and Shaw, there'll be a, a late night restaurant, eight o'clock to four in the morning. And that's our starting hour. Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. What

Vance Crowe [00:44:47] Kind of place is it?

Jason Bockman [00:44:49] Fire, breakfast, sandwiches, tacos. We have, we're making, I I you're the first person to hear about this with a beer with forehand called beer. It's just a black can. I've always said

Vance Crowe [00:45:01] That that's what people should do. I don't wanna make a decision. I just want to buy beer. Beer.

Jason Bockman [00:45:04] Yeah. I

Vance Crowe [00:45:05] Just want to have deodorant.

Jason Bockman [00:45:06] Right? That's what this is. So it's like brutalism right in this can of beer. Beer and the sandwiches. Like we initially thought like, this is what the sandwich is. Like this is how you're getting it, you know what I mean? Boom, boom, boom. So it's like simple breakfast sandwiches, really quality ingredients, reasonably priced and up late. So who's,

Vance Crowe [00:45:25] Who's the creator of the sandwiches? The food that's there? Who's

Jason Bockman [00:45:29] The, so I'm a very small part of it, right?

Vance Crowe [00:45:31] Okay.

Jason Bockman [00:45:32] I'm like 20. I've like had a lot of guidance with it. But there's a, you

Vance Crowe [00:45:35] Don't need to accredit it. You, you make strange donuts, dude. Like, if you're the creator of the food, I think

Jason Bockman [00:45:39] That, no, there's a guy, guy, there's a guy who works with me right now who's working with me for a while, and he was bringing in food all the time. And I was, I said to people all the time, I'd say it in front of him, like, you know, I don't have enough room for this guy to move up, right? Like he, and then, so I'd try to like hook him up with other businesses and stuff like that. And then one day I was like, look, you wanna open your own place, dude? And he was like, it's a dream of mine. I'll tell you about this. It is a dream mind to own a diner. And I was like, shit, it's always been a dream of mine. And so I was listening to this podcast by like, I got interviewed and I was like, man, I talked about all these things. The only thing that hasn't come true in my life, right? Is that I don't own an NBA team. Right? All these goals that I've set. And I was like, man, I want to have like a little place in like a little condo in de and a big farm and a diner. And like, I'm like, holy shit, I've manifested all of that.

Vance Crowe [00:46:32] You can only manifest it if you have the dream. You can't manifest it if you don't have the dream.

Jason Bockman [00:46:37] Is this on me right now? I'll have an NBA team in St. Louis. That's it. I'm gonna own an NBA team.

Vance Crowe [00:46:44] I mean, that'd be awesome. Yeah. I would come to those games. I don't even,

Jason Bockman [00:46:47] Oh, it'd be so badass. So I'll play. I've been working on that. But you were saying my shoes, my sweatpants.

Vance Crowe [00:46:53] Well, you like, you're all like, you reading a sandwich and you'd be like, don't worry about getting me napkins. I got my sweatpants. Oh, then you flip around your hat and it says Ferrari on it. So explain to me this like juxtaposition.

Jason Bockman [00:47:04] Oh, this

Vance Crowe [00:47:05] Ferrari's like super shihi. Like

Jason Bockman [00:47:12] I have a Ferrari. Yeah. The, yeah, I have a Ferrari.

Vance Crowe [00:47:18] Tell me about owning a fer. I, I never, I've never met anybody that has a Ferrari. Really?

Jason Bockman [00:47:23] No, man. I went into, I went, there's a Ferrari dealership that opened in St. Louis. And I wanted a Porsche while ago, and I went to buy one. And I, these people laughed at me. You know, I dress like this. I'm, I don't care, right? This isn't like people like, oh, like I, I don't know. Like, I'm not trying to like dress up in a certain way. I just dress comfortably. I'm very rarely since being single. I'm like, oh, I need to like get some shit and like look cool. You know what I mean? And I'm like, I've sold that stuff. Right? Well,

Vance Crowe [00:47:54] Those attract the wrong people.

Jason Bockman [00:47:55] Yes, dude. Completely one, this dude was like, Hey man, just so you know, you're a fucking check now, dude. You know? And he is like, and that's how these girls are gonna look at you, right? And so be careful. Right? And it's like a dude I knew loosely and he was like, but he knew me loosely and of me, you know? And like the way that I am with people. And he was like,

Vance Crowe [00:48:19] You need to be careful, dude.

Jason Bockman [00:48:20] You're gonna get caught up. Anyways, I went in, I went, I have a 86 Toyota pickup. I've just been hustling, dude. I

Vance Crowe [00:48:27] Literally, yeah, the last time I saw you had a minivan. And I still, I don't

Jason Bockman [00:48:30] Have a minivan. I have a 6,000 minivan out there. Okay. I've my, yeah, I paid $6,000 for this minivan and I'll probably have a minivan forever, right? Everything that I buy, everything I do, if we wanna talk about money and like mindset and stuff like that, everything that I do, I buy in the hopes of selling it later for more money. Right? Flat out. So like, watches, clothes, home cars, you're

Vance Crowe [00:48:59] Buying value that's underappreciated.

Jason Bockman [00:49:01] Yes, for sure. Always, always. There's five words, like, can you do any better? Right. In a negotiation that if you like, have zero education or that those five words will make and save you more money than a college education. If you can come up with the balls enough to say, can you do any better? Right? So anyways, dude, I was like, I have this 86 Toyota pickup. I was just buying cars, buying art, selling everything, dude. 'cause I was like, shit, I'm broke. I gave her everything literally straight up. I ended up like getting some art and selling it. I followed this, this Instagram account called tax collection and another Instagram account called Love Watts. And they would highlight new artists, right? And some of them were already like, very well known and stuff, but some of them would have like 1500, 5,000 followers, whatever, right? And so if I liked the art, I'd go on there, I'd link, link immediately to their website and I would buy some other art. You know, that's

Vance Crowe [00:50:00] 'cause you've gotten eye for what other people see. Like that's, that's one of your truly unique gifts is that you can see something and see what other people will see.

Jason Bockman [00:50:10] I see. Opportunity

Vance Crowe [00:50:11] For sure.

Jason Bockman [00:50:12] Right? Like a hundred percent. And so I would go, I wouldn't buy the art just 'cause like on speculation. I buy it 'cause I like it. Yeah. Right. And so I'm like, I like this. People will like this. So I'd buy a piece of art for $500, $700. And at one point I bought a piece of art. Like I got money to buy it. I, I borrowed. I'm like, Hey dog, I need to borrow some money. This is one of the first flips that was hit. I, i from like, I just left, you know, I have this little apartment, I have the $6,000 minivan. And I bought a piece of art for $28,000. I borrowed the 28 from a friend and I sold it two weeks later for 49,000. Right? And so it gave me, yeah. And it gave me enough money to like buy an apartment, get a TV and a couch and a fucking bunk bed for my kids straight. You know? And like I went to, that's

Vance Crowe [00:51:02] Hustling man, dude.

Jason Bockman [00:51:03] And so I just kept doing that. So I would buy these pieces of art and then like, you know, two weeks later, these people who had 5,000 followers now have 50,000 and their inventory is sold out and now what was 500 is is 6,000, you know? And I'm like, boom. I just,

Vance Crowe [00:51:20] Man, you are a whole new man. Like I'm, I, I like, I do not want to cut this off, but 20 minutes ago you said you had 20 minutes.

Jason Bockman [00:51:28] Is it really that long? No, let's roll real quick. I'll tell you, I wanna tell you one more, or if you wanna keep going. Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:51:32] I'll, I'll keep going off

Jason Bockman [00:51:33] Cars real quick. What happened? They, I had, I bought a, a truck online. So I was selling cars. I bought a, a again, I took that money from the selling the art. I bought a new Bronco. I sold it, I drove it a mile away and I sold it. I took it to auction. The next day I made $24,000 on it, right? So I took the 50, the 49, I bought a Bronco, sold that 76,000 is whatever I sold it for 76,000. And then I just kept fucking going. And then I bought, so I'm like buying cars and art and clothes and whatever, and just flipping it. And anyways, I, they opened this for our dealership and they're still like painting the building. And I walked in there with my kid, I have a 86 Toyota to pick up. I bought for 4,000. It's like 20 grand, right? It's boom and the no miles on it. It was awesome. I got it from some farmer in Illinois and I drove in the Toyota pickup, which all the mechanics came out like, holy shit, you know, but the, the manager guy was a fucking prick. And he's like, what do you want? And I was like, I want you to sell me a car. And he goes, and he laughed it. And I was like, dude, just so you know, because they laughed at me when I went to buy the Porsche when I, but I, I knew the guy who owned the building and he was like, do this. He was like my mentor. Anyways, they ended up laughing.

Vance Crowe [00:52:49] What'd he tell you? What is the do this? So

Jason Bockman [00:52:50] He was like, you know, get agree on the price and then ask him about leasing it, you know, he is like, these cars appreciate, you'll be better off leasing this than buying it. Right? And so he is like, it puts you in a better negotiating position. Anyway, so when I asked to lease the Porsche at the end, they laughed and I was like, I know, I know I make more money than you dude. Right? Like, I don't, I don't like get validation from that, but you're like trying to treat me like I'm a fucking white trash piece of shit. And like, and so I just left whatever and I bought something else, right? I ended up telling the Ferrari guy that there happened to be all these influencer dudes up at the store at the Ferrari store when the dude again like scooted me out back to my Toyota pickup. And he said, he said, I'm, I'm walking out and there's all these influencer guys there to like do stuff for Instagram and take photos and all this crap. And when I walked outside, they're like, Jason B, but fuck dude, you know? And they got pictures of me and stuff and then they end up calling me like, Hey man, we'd like you to come back in. And then I went and met another guy who's like the current manager there, who's awesome, who's an awesome guy. And

Vance Crowe [00:53:59] Dude, this is the ultimate pretty woman moment, right? When you walked back, back into the store that they checked, did you? Oh

Jason Bockman [00:54:04] Yeah, I walked in, dude. He was like, this is, this is Mr. Bachman, get him some snacks and a coffee and the, and, and I ended up like, you know, there's something called the Ferrari family, right? And it's like a very small list of people that they sell new cars to. And if you see somebody drive, you know, if somebody gets a new Ferrari, like they're basically getting paid to drive that car, right? Because the Ferrari will buy those cars back usually at a premium from you. And then they mark it way up and sell it to the doctor. You know what I mean? Who sees the donut guy driving it? And I was like, I wanna fuck a Ferrari. You know what I mean? And so, and then you just keep getting cars. So again, I was like, Hey dog, I need some money. And so, I don't know, I just hustle. I

Vance Crowe [00:54:49] Wanna ride in a Ferrari, man. I think that'd be fun to, I'll take you. I would love that. Ride in a Ferrari. Jason, man.

Jason Bockman [00:54:54] Yeah. Thank

Vance Crowe [00:54:55] You so much for coming by, dude.

Jason Bockman [00:54:56] Always good.