Custom Tailor Explains Why Some Suits Cost $10,000 and Others Cost $100

Ben Lawler [00:00:00] The other thing that I'm seeing more and more now is the bow tie. And I would argue that every man should know how to tie a bow tie. So you can, you can tie one then, of course. Yeah, absolutely. If you're going to a formal event, you don't wanna wear a clip on.

Vance Crowe [00:00:14] Yeah, that's totally true, right? It's

Ben Lawler [00:00:16] Like if you have a beautiful tuxedo and you've got the nice shoes and the beautiful tuxedo shirt, don't put a cheap tie with it. I'm Bruce figure, a veterinarian living in Sylvia, Kansas, and you're listening to the Vance Crow podcast. Welcome

Vance Crowe [00:00:30] Back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Today we sit down with Ben Lawler, a tailor of men's clothing from right here in St. Louis. I ask Ben questions like, what's the difference between a hundred dollars suit and a $10,000 suit? Should my shoes match my belt or my pants? And if I wanted to build out a professional wardrobe, what suits should I buy first? And in what order? We're gonna get to that interview in just a moment. But first, a couple of housekeeping items. Many of you heard our request to write reviews for the podcast, and we have been delighted with how many people have done this. We have also noticed that because people have done these reviews, our listenership has gone up. So if you wanna make a big difference for the podcast, just take a few moments to write a review on whatever app you're listening to it right now. Also, we've talked about uploading our podcast to Fountain. Fountain is an app that pays for content based on how much time you spend listening to it. It's not much, often just a few pennies, but when many people use this, not only do we get some strength against censorship, but it also provides a great way for us to give you value and you give that value in return. So if you're interested in listening to our podcast in a new way, download the Fountain app and check us out. Also, if I look a little bleary-eyed today, it's because I got back late last night from a five day tour across Canada. I was invited to give some talks to some agriculture audiences who wanted to figure out a better way of handling the rural urban conflict.

Vance Crowe [00:02:06] So I delivered a talk called A Conflict Older Than Bread, how to Thrive Amidst Urbanization. This is where I talk about novel ways of looking at the conflict, and then how you can develop skills that allow you to interact with people that you may disagree with really strongly. If you're interested in having me come speak with your organization, go to Vance Crowe dot com to find out more. And finally, I always talk about Legacy Interviews because that is an important part of using this studio here. Legacy Interviews are often talking about the five stages of life, childhood, career, marriage, parenting, and the legacy that one wants to leave behind. But every once in a while we have people come in that want to talk about their business that they created. These Legacy Interviews are more for public consumption. They're used for people to describe a business that they've built or that their parents passed down to them. And it's a great way to either show off your business for sale, or to be able to make sure that the memories that were created through the hard work can last and be told for many years to come. If you're interested in having me sit down with your business owner or an important member of your business, go to Legacy Interviews dot com to find out more. All right, without further ado, let's head to the interview with my man, Ben Lawler. Ben Lawler, welcome to the podcast

Ben Lawler [00:03:29] Vance. Thanks for having me.

Vance Crowe [00:03:30] So do the clothes really make the man?

Ben Lawler [00:03:33] Yeah, I would say that looking the part, dressing the part, it goes a long way. Absolutely.

Vance Crowe [00:03:39] So how does one in today's modern age get into suit sales?

Ben Lawler [00:03:45] So I actually have two brothers that are with the company. Tom James was actually founded in Nashville, Tennessee, 1966. So the way I got started right outta school, went to St. Louis U, graduated back in oh three, interviewed with the company and I could tell right away that it was, that it was a match. Does that answer your question? I got started through through family.

Vance Crowe [00:04:07] You know, it's funny, like you think of Taylors and like having somebody put you up on a little podium and measure that thing up as something really, really old fashioned. And yet, like here you are in today's day and age, doing it,

Ben Lawler [00:04:19] You know, it's kind of a, it's a dying breed, but as far as a company, we actually own and operate 11 factories here in the us. So Vance, I don't actually do the sewing, I just take all of the measurements, I pick out the cloth and then I bring back the finished product. But I find this day and age, we're actually seeing a shift back to formal. We're seeing people starting to, starting to dress back up out there.

Vance Crowe [00:04:42] What is the point of of suits and dress clothes? Why do people do this?

Ben Lawler [00:04:47] Well, I think in a number of different professions, it just kind of makes sense. So let's take the, the financial industry for example. So there's been studies that have been done over the years. A person goes in to see a financial advisor and one is wearing an old, you know, beat up polo shirt and a pair of khakis. And the other one is wearing a, a good looking, you know, sued shirt, maybe a tie. People naturally gravitate towards the person that looks like they know what they're doing. Take the legal community. You know, if you're going in the courtroom as an attorney, you can't wear khakis in a, in a sweater, right? You have to wear a suit. So I think again, in certain professions it makes sense to project a little power and influence.

Vance Crowe [00:05:32] You know, you like in today's day and age, you can walk into anywhere from like a target to a men's warehouse to on and on and on for like higher end suits. What is the difference between a suit you buy for a hundred dollars at those discount shops in New York versus on up the chain?

Ben Lawler [00:05:50] Man, that's a great question. What really differentiates quality in my opinion, comes down to two things. Vance. One is fabric and the other is construction. So fabric, have you ever heard the term super one hundreds or super one twenties? So it's basically a micron reading, right? So the longer the strand, the nicer the hand, the more durability. So imagine it's a car super, one hundreds could be a three series BMW super. One 20 is five series super, one forties, seven series. You can go all the way up now to a super two forties. Now you'll pay for it, but it's out there. On the other hand, it's construction, right? So that opening price point, if you get something just right off the peg, it's made 100% by machine, right? But at the very top, have you ever heard the term bespoke? So bespoke means 100% hand tailored never touches a machine, right? So you're gonna pay for that craftsmanship. So at the top of the food chain, there is a, an operation called Oxford with two X's. Have you ever heard of Oxford?

Vance Crowe [00:07:00] No. This is a whole new world.

Ben Lawler [00:07:01] Oxford is the last handmade garment here in the United States. Yeah, these take 12 to 16 weeks to make. And there's a lot of craftsmanship that goes into these garments. Oxford, which is owned by my company Tom James, has been making clothing for guys like Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, most of the US presidents over the years. And if you're looking for the ultimate in fabric and construction, Oxford is where it's at.

Vance Crowe [00:07:29] And when you look at somebody walking down the street and you, you see their suit, can you tell, hey, that is likely a longer fabric that's like a longer, you know, one 20 or two 40?

Ben Lawler [00:07:43] Absolutely. I, I would say I would notice two things when seeing a person first do their garments fit them, right? You can pick up a really nice expensive suit, but if it doesn't fit you, it's not gonna look good on you. But on the other hand, the fabric, you know, you can tell a, a beautiful fabric will drape nicer. It'll look better at the end of the day. Whereas sometimes the cheaper material will pucker. It will wrinkle over the course of time. It won't last nearly as long as a nicer fabric would.

Vance Crowe [00:08:18] So talk to me a little bit about like how somebody makes the decision that they're gonna jump from the lower, kind of just like, Hey men's Warehouse, they tell me they can tailor this suit. I can get into it for just whatever, 250 bucks, two, I'm gonna have an actual tailor sit here and and measure me out.

Ben Lawler [00:08:38] Absolutely. That's a great question. Vance. I would say a couple things come to mind. One would be that phrase I heard a while back. And that's dress for where you're going not for where you are. So it could be that associate and a firm that wants to take it to the next level. They have the smarts, they have the know-how, but they wanna look the part. They want to project a little influence within their organization. The other would be that CEO or that executive or that managing partner that is really good at what they do, but they want something that's a little bit nicer. They want something that fits them a little bit better. And what a lot of people like about our company, Tom James, is just the convenience factor, right? So Vance, on a typical day, I'll meet with seven or eight people and they're home or office. So a lot of busy executives, they don't like to go to the store, they don't have time, they don't even like it. But again, they want something that looks good and fits well. So if I can come directly to that individual, get a fit that's right on a fabric that they like, it just kinda makes sense.

Vance Crowe [00:09:48] So let's talk about the quintessential classic American white shirt. You know, if somebody thinks about like, oh, I'm just gonna go get a white dress shirt from the store, they're just like grabbing whatever. But you look at a white dress shirt and you must see the collars and the cuffs and the button. Like what all can go into just that white shirt?

Ben Lawler [00:10:09] Absolutely. So start the white shirt is one that never goes outta style, right? It's been in for years and it will continue to be in. So with a custom shirt, there's a lot of details that you can pick out. First would be the collar, right? You wanna widespread, you want a medium spread, you want button down, you want to button under. Yeah. Typically the button down or the button under those are more casual. Those are gonna look good. Open collar. But if you are wearing a neck tie, you want a collar that has staves on the inside.

Vance Crowe [00:10:40] Oh, the first time I ever got a in a magnetic co collar stay. Yeah.

Ben Lawler [00:10:44] I

Vance Crowe [00:10:44] Was like, this is what all those people have been doing to look so sharp. Yeah.

Ben Lawler [00:10:48] That they

Vance Crowe [00:10:49] Can keep their collars up. Like nobody tells you this.

Ben Lawler [00:10:52] Absolutely. But it

Vance Crowe [00:10:53] Dramatically changes the

Ben Lawler [00:10:54] Mood. It really does. Yeah. 'cause without that magnetic stay or that button down, the collar will have a tendency to slide all over the place. And with a dress shirt, you really want that collar to stay in place.

Vance Crowe [00:11:06] Yeah. You want to have that kind of tom cruise like really buttoned up, kind of kinda look.

Ben Lawler [00:11:11] Exactly right. You know, the next portion you wanna look at is a pocket. Most people now leave the pocket off because A, it's not very functional. And B, it's just a little bit more casual. So for that reason, people typically leave off the pocket.

Vance Crowe [00:11:27] So no pocket is more formal then I guess that makes sense. Think

Ben Lawler [00:11:31] About a tuxedo shirt. Would you ever have a pocket on a tuxedo shirt?

Vance Crowe [00:11:34] No. 'cause what would you use it for?

Ben Lawler [00:11:35] Yeah, I mean, you put a pen in there and you're just, you're just asking for trouble, right? The next area, you wanna look at the cuff, right? So the French cuff would be the most formal, right? So you fold it over and you put a cuff link through. That's really gonna be a step up in formality. Most shirts that you find right off the rack are gonna be just the basic barrel cuff or the button cuff. And then you look at the monogram. You know, some people like to add a, a different accent or a detail. So one that's popular now is what we call the signature monogram. So Vance, you can actually sign your name and it shows up on the cuff. So people ask, they'll say, Vance, what is that? And you can say, well that's my autograph.

Vance Crowe [00:12:19] And when it comes to buttons, this is like, 'cause you and I have done search suits and shirts before, so I know about all this. Yeah. So the buttons, this is one that I was like, I like at, at some point, like my brain just can't handle all the details. But then you go and you look at some, if you're actually paying attention, you're like, Hey, those buttons are just a little bit more yellow. Or Oh, those are gray buttons. What all can go into a button?

Ben Lawler [00:12:43] Well, with shirts, I mean you can really choose just about any color, right? Classic, you know, with a white, you're gonna have maybe an off white or an ecro sort of shade. But some guys now like to mix it up, you know, maybe do a dark navy, a light blue, a pastel. Typically that's gonna be more on a casual shirt that you are wearing open collar. But then getting into suits and blazers, you know, in suits, the same story. You can mix it up. You can go with a leather button like I'm wearing. You could do a genuine crushed water buffalo horn, which has kind of a cool, a cool look, a cool feel to it. On blazers, typically you're gonna have a metal button, right? That's gonna be a step up and formality just for the jacket. So that's where you'll see the classic gold button, silver button, platinum. But a typical sport coat, you're gonna have maybe a horn or a plastic button.

Vance Crowe [00:13:40] And now with those white shirts, one of the things that I've noticed, but I have no idea why, is some shirts are a lot harder to iron than others because of what's on their back, right? Like there's that little bubble thing that comes over. There's like the way it stitches, why can't I just have a flat back that's like super easy for me to iron?

Ben Lawler [00:13:59] So what I ask a lot of people is, with your vehicle, do you change the oil on your own vehicle?

Vance Crowe [00:14:07] No,

Ben Lawler [00:14:07] I don't either. I go to a certified authorized professional. The same thing with nice shirts. Don't try to do those at home. 'cause they're not gonna look nearly as good as going to a reputable dry cleaner in town. There's some great dry cleaners in town and they're gonna do a much better job than you and I.

Vance Crowe [00:14:25] What would, what makes the, when somebody goes to take their clothes in, right, they're gonna wash their iconic white shirt or their, you know, their, what do they care about at the dry cleaner? What should they pay attention to?

Ben Lawler [00:14:36] Well, a couple things. One, you wanna look at the materials that they use. Typically a good dry cleaner is gonna use a petroleum based salt, right? So that's gonna be much better on the garment, right? Because if you could imagine bringing a garment to maybe a cheaper dry cleaner, it's like taking your garments and just beating those against a rock. You're just gonna beat 'em up. You're just gonna wear those out over the course of time. The next thing you wanna look at is, does that dry cleaner do their cleaning in-house or do they send it out? Are they mass producing where they're doing on a big scale and they're doing more quantity than they are quality. So really those are the two things that I look at.

Vance Crowe [00:15:16] I didn't even know all, whenever people talk about the chemicals for cleaning, I always think about, they always talk about how green they are.

Ben Lawler [00:15:22] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:15:23] But is that something that's like a mis, like a misdirection away from say the petroleum based cleaners?

Ben Lawler [00:15:30] At the end of the day, it really is. Yeah, everybody's talking about we're going green out there, right? We, we wanna be friendly to the environment. But there are certain dry cleaners that do a much better job than than others.

Vance Crowe [00:15:42] I wouldn't even have crossed my mind. I always just thought a dry cleaner, a dry cleaner, I want the one that, can I drop it off on Tuesday and they're gonna give it back to me on Wednesday?

Ben Lawler [00:15:51] Absolutely. But you know what, the other thing, now, speaking of convenience, a lot of these dry cleaners now will pick up your garment from your home and then they'll bring it back at a really good dry cleaner. We'll go that extra mile. If you have a button that pops off, they're gonna sew it back on for you. If you have a thread that comes loose, they're gonna snip it. They're not gonna ask any questions. In my opinion here at St. Louis Alexander Reed is probably the top

Vance Crowe [00:16:16] Okay.

Ben Lawler [00:16:16] That I've seen. Yeah. The other thing I would mention as far as maintenance, you know, some shirts are high maintenance, they wrinkle very easily. Others you've heard of a lot of people talk about non-iron shirts.

Vance Crowe [00:16:28] Yeah, yeah. In fact, for a long time that was always my, I will only do non-iron 'cause they travel so much. So what's the difference between the two?

Ben Lawler [00:16:35] Well, the difference is non-iron shirts actually have a lightweight polymer coating, right? So these shirts have this coating, they're actually baked in an oven. Now for that reason, we're not able to make non-iron shirts here in the states because years back turns out that these non-iron shirts produce a carcinogen, which may or may not cause certain ailments. So for that reason, I don't wear non-iron and I don't recommend non. I didn't know that. Absolutely do some research on it.

Vance Crowe [00:17:09] Okay.

Ben Lawler [00:17:09] Yeah, you can fact check that. It's, you can't make those here in the States. But it's interesting. We could make those overseas and sell 'em here in the States.

Vance Crowe [00:17:18] The thing that always struck me about non-iron, so my mentor is the one that convinced me like, Hey Vance, you need to dress better. And so he took me out and he showed me to buy Brooks Brothers non-iron shirts. And when you have those, at first you're like, these are great because if I get it wrinkled, like I'm traveling, I can put it in a steamy shower and just have the steam hit it and pull it all together. But the thing that you don't notice until you're older, until I had one of your shirts was you also, one shouldn't iron it 'cause it'll ruin the non-iron. But two, it'll never look as good as the, as the shirt you're supposed to iron because that one looks crisp and

Ben Lawler [00:17:57] Clean. That's exactly right. I would argue that a hundred percent cotton shirt that's not the non-iron material will actually hold up longer. The non-iron shirt. It, it could be good on the front end, it could be low maintenance, but it's not gonna last last nearly as long as the 100% cotton shirt.

Vance Crowe [00:18:15] So I go into the men's store and I'm feeling the different fabrics. You know, it's a white shirt, we'll just stay with that. Yeah. One of them feels like thicker, right?

Ben Lawler [00:18:25] Yeah. And

Vance Crowe [00:18:25] It feels like it's been woven together. Another one feels almost like a paper where you can go like pop, pop, pop and it would be one co. What's going on there like

Ben Lawler [00:18:36] Absolutely. So you've got different fabrications. You could have two white shirts, but one will feel a little bit different. So the thicker material is typically an Oxford, right? So that's gonna be a thicker weave. It's gonna have a little bit different hand. Some would argue that that body actually takes a press a little bit better. So it could look nicer at the end of the day. But on the other hand, you could have a pinpoint or a broad cloth. Those are gonna be softer. The touch, no real texture to those. At the end of the day, those could actually wrinkle a little bit easier.

Vance Crowe [00:19:09] Okay. So if I'm getting a, like let's say I just wanna buy a, a cadre of the exact same white shirt. 'cause I wear 'em every day. Yeah. The ones that you think like, hey, if you were going higher end the Oxford is the style to go with.

Ben Lawler [00:19:22] That's what I typically recommend. Interesting. Yeah, those are gonna look the best. They're gonna hold up the best over the course of time in our world, it's probably our number one seller.

Vance Crowe [00:19:33] How many dress shirts do would you recommend a man? Let, let's set up a man that is 30. He's doing okay in his career. He is moving up, but he's certainly at the maybe lower levels of management. Let's say he is making, let's put it at $80,000 a year. So he is making a pretty good salary. Like what do you recommend? He wants to, he wants to move out of the men's warehouse or the, the JC Penney's and into a suit. Where does he start? What is the suit selection, shirt selection.

Ben Lawler [00:20:05] So ultimately I would look at how often is that individual dressing up, right? Is he five days a week?

Vance Crowe [00:20:11] Who's five days a week dressed up anymore? Four. Maybe four.

Ben Lawler [00:20:15] All right. So maybe it's, say maybe this person is four days a week. On the suit side, I would start off with a two week rotation, right? So you're eight suits. And I would start off with the cornerstones, right? You wanna have the navy, the gray, the black and the earth tone. But within that Navy have a solid, like I'm wearing today, have a stripe, have a pattern, same thing with gray. Have a gray, solid gray stripe, gray pattern and then have a black for those formal occasions. And then that earth tone or that tan, that can be casual, but that can also be seasonal. So if a person was in this particular scenario, I would say a two week rotation shirts, on the other hand, I would bump that up. 'cause shirts are not gonna last as long as suits will. I would have a four week rotation for shirts. Again, you wanna have those basics, those cornerstones, whites and blues. 'cause those go with everything. But then maybe mix it up with some patterns, maybe some pastels, pink or lavender. And then you wanna look at the dress shoes, right? So for shoes, what I typically recommend is have a black brown and burgundy. Have those in a lace up and a slip on. And those pretty much cover your bases.

Vance Crowe [00:21:29] You know, it's so hard for me in my like Midwestern sensibilities to spend a lot of money on clothes. And yet when I sit down and talk with you, I'm like, this is obviously going to make the, it's like creating fluidness among other things. It, you must experience the thing where a guy comes in and he wants to buy a lot, but he knows his wife is gonna, you know, check over the credit card bill. How do you walk a guy through the psychological barrier of spending more? You're gonna have to explain it. How are you gonna do this?

Ben Lawler [00:22:02] Absolutely. So I would say a couple things come into play. One, I always like the ask the ask the question. Vance, would you like to make this a process or make it an event? The event is, hey, we're gonna knock out everything today. You could spend 10, 20, 30 grand, let's knock it out. But the process is, let's spread it out over the course of time. Maybe you do a suit and a sport coat today, next round you do custom shirts. Most people make it a process. So on average I'll meet with clients four times a year. It's typically once a quarter, right? And I like to do one of three things. One, let's see if we need to make any alterations. You know, have you gained a few, have you lost a few? Do you have a button that popped off? Let's take care of your service, your alterations. The next I like to look at is I started a nonprofit about 10 years ago. It's called the Suit Project. So we'll take older garments, things that you're not wearing anymore, we'll give you a tax write off. And then I give those garments to underprivileged men and women here in the area. And then that final component is, let's look at some of those holes and your wardrobe, right? What are you missing? What are some of those areas where we can really help to fill in? Let's, let's really help you to make sure that you're properly attire for any occasion, right? Whether it's business, casual, social or formal.

Vance Crowe [00:23:30] Yeah. When COVID really made it. So my deep desire is to never go to the store, you know, like ever, ever since we kind of removed ourselves from society as you reentered back into

Ben Lawler [00:23:41] It. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:23:42] And I almost never want to go back to the store. So when you initially say, I'm gonna visit you four times, I'm like, whoa, that's a lot. And then you think like, actually during the course of a year, it would be very possible that you would go to the store four times If I could have my tailor come to me.

Ben Lawler [00:23:55] Absolutely. Without a doubt. And we had, we've seen that change over the last couple years, right? Going back to 2020, whatever, I talk with individuals, they said, Ben, I just, I'm not wearing a suit or I'm not wearing a blazer as often. Maybe they were dressing up from the, the waist up, but on the bottom maybe they're wearing sweatpants or a pair of shorts. Fast forward to last year we had a record year as a company.

Vance Crowe [00:24:22] Really? Yeah. We're really, because people were saying, I want to get back into

Ben Lawler [00:24:25] Getting those

Vance Crowe [00:24:26] Suits up.

Ben Lawler [00:24:26] Well a couple things are going on. One, some people put on what I call the COVID-19, right?

Vance Crowe [00:24:32] So they maybe

Ben Lawler [00:24:33] Their office was right next to their fridge and they, they put on a few pounds, others picked up the Peloton and they dropped a few pounds. So maybe they changed sizes. The next is what we've been talking about, the convenience revolution, right? Guys, they don't want to go to the mall, they don't have time, they don't wanna spend 20 minutes parking. Maybe they go in,

Vance Crowe [00:24:54] Well the store never has for my sizes. Never. Like they're always like, oh we can order that for you. But if that were the case, why didn't I just do it online?

Ben Lawler [00:25:02] Exactly right. Yeah. That, and you look at some of the biggest retailers out there, look at Brooks Brothers who you mentioned. They filed chapter 11.

Vance Crowe [00:25:12] Man, somebody destroyed a great company with that. It used to be, I knew exactly what I needed, exactly my sizes. And somebody came in there and started monkeying around with the neck sizes, arm sizes, cloth material, all that stuff. What I want is to, to find a place you can go and you just keep hitting that button.

Ben Lawler [00:25:31] Absolutely. People want consistency at the end of the day, but they also want a relationship. You know, whether it's law, finance, clothing, people want to work with individuals that they know, people that they like, but also people that they trust. So that's, that's why we run typically a an 85% client retention rate. You know? So if I can get your fit right on a fabric that you love, you're typically gonna come back and do business.

Vance Crowe [00:26:07] So a lot of people that listen to this show are in farming and agriculture don't wear a lot of suits. They wanna have one that they can go, you know, somewhere out real nice. They're willing to spend more on it 'cause they're only gonna get one. What are the details that you say, Hey, let me show you this, if you really want this thing to be the the one the one truck you ride in.

Ben Lawler [00:26:28] Yeah, well what I would say is that take a farmer, maybe they're not wearing a suit that often, but they have occasions throughout the year, right? They have weddings. Weddings, yeah. That they're attending funerals. Maybe it's a charitable function. So they need at least one or two in the closet. So the first thing you wanna look at is a cornerstone. You know, get something that you could wear for years to come, right? Because if you only wear it two or three times a year, you're gonna have that for the next five or 10 years if you stay about the same size. So for a cornerstone, I recommend just a nice solid navy, right? Because it's really three outfits in one, right? That jacket you could wear as a blazer with a pair of khakis. That pant you could wear by itself with a polo shirt. But as a full suit, that's one that you can wear for just about any occasion.

Vance Crowe [00:27:20] And I see you have, you're sporting the vest, which I think is cool. But like I always seem to be like, does who does the vest work for?

Ben Lawler [00:27:29] I would say the vest can work for just about anybody. The other thing I look at is a big shift back to formal out there. So some of these firms, Vance, that were casual the last couple years, they're now dressing back up, they're now wearing suits, blazers. But specifically who does the vest work for? I would say that individual that wants to, to be one step up from the rest. The person that wants to add just that extra layer of formality, right? You take off the jacket and it's still, it's still a very formal look.

Vance Crowe [00:28:00] Yeah, that's right. 'cause you've still got the vest there. And now obviously you have the tie. Tell me about what, what do you know about ties that the average person overlooks?

Ben Lawler [00:28:11] So when it comes to ties, you wanna look at a couple things. One is you wanna mirror your audience, right? So if you're on a day like today, I'm meeting with a lot of individuals that are wearing a tie. If I'm not, I'll typically dress down, I'll wear maybe a sport coat and an open collar. But the first thing is mirror your audience. You don't wanna be the guy that's wearing the three piece suit and everybody else is wearing jeans and a polo shirt. That's not gonna make sense. The next thing you wanna look at is material, right? So there are different materials as you know, with, with ties with a nice material and it's gonna tie a great knot, right? Whereas if you get a thicker, a coarse material, it's gonna look chunky, it's gonna wrinkle, it's not gonna hold up really well over the course of time. So I would argue that the tie, at least for a man, it's, it's a great way to dress up a suit.

Vance Crowe [00:29:08] How many different ways can your, you have one son, you have

Ben Lawler [00:29:12] One son and one daughter.

Vance Crowe [00:29:14] So can your son tie, tie yet?

Ben Lawler [00:29:16] So Jack is nine, he, he's not wearing a tie just yet, but one day I would say maybe here in the next couple years he'll be tying

Vance Crowe [00:29:25] What'll be the first knot you'll teach him to tie. So I would say the

Ben Lawler [00:29:28] First in the easiest would be the, the foreign hand, right? So that one is just over under, over through. But when it comes to tying a neck tie, I mean you could do the half Windsor, you can do do the double Windsor.

Vance Crowe [00:29:44] The double Windsor is that big old honking knot, right? On your,

Ben Lawler [00:29:48] If it's a thick material. But if it's a thin material like Ferragamo, it's actually not gonna be all that thick. Okay? If you do that double Windsor. The other thing that I'm seeing more and more now is the bow tie. And I would argue that every man should know how to tie a bow tie.

Vance Crowe [00:30:04] So you can, you can tie one then

Ben Lawler [00:30:05] Of course. Yeah, absolutely. If you're going to a formal event, you don't wanna wear a clip on.

Vance Crowe [00:30:10] Yeah, that's totally true, right?

Ben Lawler [00:30:12] It's like if you have a beautiful tuxedo and you've got the nice shoes and the beautiful tuxedo shirt, don't put a cheap tie with it. You know, if

Vance Crowe [00:30:20] It's a, yeah, I find myself like clinching 'cause I'm like, you know, I, I know how to tie a lot of tie ties, but I do not know how to tie a bow tie.

Ben Lawler [00:30:26] Well next time I see you, I'll teach you how to tie a a bow tie.

Vance Crowe [00:30:31] So let's talk about the tailoring experience. Like for a guy that's never had a tailored suit, you know it seems like a really foreign thing. Walk me through how that works. What are you gonna do when, when you meet with somebody you meet in their office, you're gonna tailor 'em a suit

Ben Lawler [00:30:47] Man. So that first thing that I like to do Vance, is really get to know the person, you know, what do they do? Where do they go? What sort of fit problems do they have? And then I like to dive into what I call the wardrobe analysis, right? So let's go through the closet, look, tell me what you have, tell me what you're not wearing, those things that you're not wearing. Let's rotate 'em out and then we'll find a couple holes, right? So maybe you need a gray pen striped suit and a couple sport coats and shirts. So really putting together that that plan, much like if you go to the dentist, you might, you might need a root canal, you might need porcelain veneers, you might need some equilibration. You don't do all of those at once. But over the course of time we can knock those out. So the first thing is getting to know the person and then the wardrobe eval the, for the next step. It's, it's our story, right? So it's who is Tom James as a company? What do we do? What sets us apart? And then it's walking through pricing. You know, just like cars, you have different levels of luxury, right? So that individual will pick out the price point where they feel comfortable and maybe a suit, a blazer shirts. And then after they pick out that price point, it's looking at fabric, right? So let's lay out some fabrics in your price point. Let's fill in some of those holes, some of those cornerstones. And then the next step would be taking a full set of measurements, right?

Ben Lawler [00:32:18] So top to bottom it's getting the neck, chest, midsection, bicep, waist, see everything. You can imagine getting that right

Vance Crowe [00:32:26] On. It's funny, now it's like a natural thing for me 'cause you know, after you've done it a few times, but I remember the first time I ever had somebody fit you, you're like, you really need that measurement from all the way inside my leg all the way down. Like you get real up close and personal with people.

Ben Lawler [00:32:40] You really do. It's, it's kinda like a carpenter. I like to measure twice and deliver once.

Vance Crowe [00:32:47] So now let's talk about somebody that has come into their own. This is a big event. Like you said they wanna go, they want to do the suit, they wanna really do it luxuriously. What is that experience like for a man that says like, I'm gonna plunk down 40 K on on suits and things.

Ben Lawler [00:33:07] Yeah, so you really look at what are they trying to accomplish? Are they doing this because their spouse wants to, to dress up? Are they doing this because they just lost a bunch of weight? Did they just come into a chunk of money? But really figuring out the why. You know, kinda like Simon Sinek talks about start with why, what is, what is their why? But on the luxury side, there's some cool features that we can do on a, on a custom suit. We can now screen print, we can digitize a lining, right? So we can take your logo, your family crest, or just your favorite picture, digitize that screen print and put it on the inside of the jacket. So we have a lot of people do this for, maybe it's for a local bank, maybe it's for a pro sports team, maybe it's just a person that's getting married, right? And they want some of their favorite pictures on the inside. Another cool option is the, what we call the signature stripe, right? So in the pen stripe you can now get your name right. So it could say the Vance Crow podcast and the pinstripe if you really want to do that, right? We could make that a 24 karat gold pinstripe. And we've made a number of those for crow athletes out there. 'cause typically they like to see their, their names and the bright lights. But again, it really, it comes down to what that person is trying to accomplish.

Vance Crowe [00:34:40] And now let's talk about shoes because it seems like you could get your entire suit fitted out for you. Everything good? Yeah. And

Ben Lawler [00:34:46] Now

Vance Crowe [00:34:47] Shoes are like a whole nother, a whole nother world.

Ben Lawler [00:34:50] Abso, it's kinda like whenever you're picking out a car, you wanna have the right wheels to go with it. So for, for us at Tom James, we carry a few different labels. We carry Alan Edmonds, which is now a St. Louis based company, Johnston and Murphy, Farra, Gamo to boot New York, Zelly. So we have a number of different shoe options to choose from. And again, it depends on what that person is trying to accomplish. Do they want something more conservative like a capto or do they want something a little bit bolder? Do they want ostrich? Do they want alligator? Are they trying to make a a statement?

Vance Crowe [00:35:28] Yeah. It's so funny because I had Jared Holton the other day. Yeah. And

Ben Lawler [00:35:33] You,

Vance Crowe [00:35:33] You and I both know Jared, he's fashion forward. He really wants, and he makes a strong case for why you wanna have this kind of bold fashion. It gets people to notice you and remember you. Sure. I come from the school of thought where I want to be as noticed as little as possible for my clothes and it and like that's probably just like growing up in Eureka, Illinois. So like if, if shoes have paisleys on 'em, for me that's like way too much, right? I don't judge anybody else for having them. But there really is like some personal signature to it. Like I want my clothes to be fitting in as opposed to sticking out.

Ben Lawler [00:36:11] Absolutely. And that's where it really depends on the person. What are they trying to accomplish? Some of my top clients Vance, they'll order six solid navy suits at a time because that's their uniform, right? They just wanna blend, they wanna put on the same thing each day, right? That's one thing that they don't have to think about it. Others like you're talking about, they like to be the peacock, right? They like to walk into the room and people do the double take. It's like, what's that guy wearing?

Vance Crowe [00:36:39] Well 'cause you have to have a certain personality type to be able to handle people noticing you for what you're wearing, right? Like absolutely that peacock then you have to want it, right? It

Ben Lawler [00:36:49] Takes a certain level of confidence to really to really pull that off. But again, at the end of the day, your clothing should reflect who you are, your personality and really where you're going in life.

Vance Crowe [00:37:04] It's funny as you get older, like it used to be that clothes fit me better and then you get to, you know, your forties and you start putting on weight in all these different places and like this, this was like a hard thing for me to come to the realization where you're like, part of the reason why my clothes don't fit as well, one, you know, you don't take as good care of yourself. But two, I get fat in different places than I used to. Yeah,

Ben Lawler [00:37:26] That's right. And that's why with Tom James, again, we have a great tailor in the office. So as your size changes we can always adjust those things for you. But what I typically tell clients is you take care of the weight and I'll take care of the clothing because

Vance Crowe [00:37:42] People must be like, oh, I want to get a suit now, but I'm planning on losing another 10 pounds and so I just gonna, I'm gonna wait on that. And

Ben Lawler [00:37:50] I hear it all the time. And what I typically tell people is, yeah, if they're maybe waiting to lose 10 or 15, even 20 pounds, I would say no big deal. Do it now. And here's why a lot of your measurements won't change. Your chest really won't change a whole lot. Your sleeve length certainly won't change, your pant length will not change. But you know, what will that midsection, that midsection, right? Your waist, your seat. And that's the easiest part to alter. Now if somebody said, Ben, I'm losing 50, 60, 70 pounds, I'd say, you know what? Let's pump the brakes. Let's, let's maybe wait until you hit your target. But some people need something in the meantime, so maybe they have five or six things that, that they want to add. So maybe it's starting out with one or two just to get them to where they want to go. And then once they hit that target, then really starting to, to lay that foundation.

Vance Crowe [00:38:44] So you mentioned before we talked about the fabric and then the construction. If somebody's looking at a suit, they, let's say they're at a store and they wanna look, notice just a few things like, hey, how can I tell whether I should get this suit or that suit? It's gonna be off the rack. Like what should they be looking for in the construction to say one's better than the other?

Ben Lawler [00:39:03] Yeah, so I would say a couple things. One, if it's a jacket or a suit, I would look at the button. Is it a cheaper plastic button or is it a thicker, like a genuine crushed water buffalo horn or, or a nicer button. The next you wanna look at the content or the fabric that's in that particular garment. Is it a super one hundreds? Is it a blend? Is it a super, one 20 is or a one forties? So again, depending on what that person is looking for, look at that content that you're gonna see in the, in the fabric. Another thing I would look at is where's the garment made? You know, is this made in Indonesia? Is it made in Thailand? Is it made here in the states? Is it made in Canada? So really looking at a couple of those areas, I would also look at the pan, you know, look at the waistband, you know, is it a, is it a good fully constructed waistband or is it kind of a cheap flimsy,

Vance Crowe [00:40:02] Oh, say more about this. I hadn't really thought about this. So

Ben Lawler [00:40:04] At a custom suit, as you know, on the inside, you're gonna have a really well constructed waistband on the inside, right? What we do is a, a process called snug techs, right? So this is a built in rubberized lining. So this will keep your shirt tucked in.

Vance Crowe [00:40:20] Oh yeah, you gotta have

Ben Lawler [00:40:21] That, that keeps the pant right on the waist. But again, with a a thicker waistband, it's gonna allow that pan to hold up much better over the course of time. If you don't have that, that waistband will have a tendency to curl over. It'll have a tendency to wrinkle, it just won't hold up as well as others would.

Vance Crowe [00:40:39] And how about for belts, right? If you're thinking about that waistband, how do you know whether a belt is a good belt or not? They all look shiny and polished on the, on the rack.

Ben Lawler [00:40:48] Yeah, so I would look, you know, when it comes to belts, the same story, look at, you know, sometimes you have to look at the name, you know, Alan Edmonds is a great company. They're made here in the states, it's good quality material, great construction, a little bit lower price point. Johnston and Murphy, you could still get a great belt at a reasonable price. But then you look at some of these higher end belts, a lot of times you just pay for the name, right? You can spend three, four, or five, 600 bucks on a belt. Is it that much nicer than Alan Edmonds? Not necessarily. A lot of times you just pay for the name

Vance Crowe [00:41:29] And as you are getting dressed in the morning, are you, do you have a favorite suit that you have to be like, nah, no, nah, I can't wear that one again. It's like,

Ben Lawler [00:41:37] What I like to do again is mirror my audience, right? If I'm meeting with a pro athlete and I know they like something that has a little pop, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring out that bold window pane. If I'm meeting with a conservative CEO of a Fortune 100 company, I'm gonna rock that solid Navy. So again, the first thing I like to look at is who am I meeting with that day?

Vance Crowe [00:41:58] So you, you've built this business up, you're very well known in the St. Louis community. What do you know about sales and what did you have to learn in order to get where you are today?

Ben Lawler [00:42:08] Yeah, it's sales. I would argue that pretty much everything that you do is sales, right? If you're a dentist, you're selling your patient on a treatment plan. You know, if you're an attorney, you're selling that judge and jury on why your client is not guilty. And clothing, I would, I would say that that selling is is not telling, it's listening. You know, God gave us two ears and one mouth. So a lot of times in meetings I spent 80% of the time just listening. Right? A, because people love to talk about themselves, that B, because I could learn much more by being an active listener.

Vance Crowe [00:42:54] What did, what did you change to become an active listener? I think it's one thing to be like, oh, I, I listen to people well, but like what does it take to do that?

Ben Lawler [00:43:01] So I would say a couple things come to mind. One, it's just having a level of focus of engagement. Meaning sometimes Vance, you talk with that individual and they've got their cell phone. It's just like, I'm talking to you, but I'm not, I'm not listening to you. Others you can tell they're, they're locked in, right? They're making eye, eye contact, they're fully engaged. What I think of whenever it comes to being an active listener are the three S's, right? So that state story and strategy, so state that's being in the right mental state, whenever you are meeting with somebody, when you're communicating with somebody story is knowing exactly who you are, what you do, why you do it. And then strategy is just bringing everything together, right? But being an active listener, again, regardless of profession is gonna, it's gonna set you apart from from the rest.

Vance Crowe [00:43:59] So when people come to you, they know they're buying a suit or they're trying it on for the first time, you get to that point where they're like, alright, we're actually gonna make an investment into it. They must have hesitations, they must have things where they're like, ah, I don't know, should I do it? How do you walk people through those decisions? Sure.

Ben Lawler [00:44:18] Well, I think you had mentioned earlier, sometimes the spouse or the wife objection, right? So if I know that that's gonna be a challenge, I love to get the wife involved, right? Because you know, some would argue that one of a woman's best accessories is a well-dressed man, right? So if I could get both involved, but I used to hear that a lot more earlier in my career.

Vance Crowe [00:44:44] I mean, really, I think with your business, there is so much about trust because just like if I go to a jeweler and I say, I don't know, is this a good diamond? Is this a nice sapphire? Is this good gold? Like I don't actually have the skills to know. So I have to, I mean there's some level where you can be like, all right, this feels better than the comparison, but at the end of the day, it really does come down to, do you think the person that is selling you this thing is selling you what they say they're selling you?

Ben Lawler [00:45:12] Absolutely. And I hear that all the time, right? And what I typically tell clients is, listen, Vance, I'm gonna talk to you like I'm talking to my brother, I'm just gonna shoot you straight. I'm gonna lay it out there if what I'm talking about makes sense, awesome, let's get this rolling, but if it doesn't, no big deal, let's put it on the back burner.

Vance Crowe [00:45:32] So when you look at movies of let's say like Blade Runner or something that's like way off in the distant future, what do you think, will fashion be wildly different or will the suit, you know, be the same a hundred years from now?

Ben Lawler [00:45:46] I think the suit will continue to be in, right? If you look back a hundred years, people were wearing suits years from now, I would argue that people will still be wearing suits. You look at men's fashion, it changes slightly over the course of time. Go back 15, 20 years, it was a three button jacket. Now it's a two button jacket, you know, it used to

Vance Crowe [00:46:09] Be, yeah, double breasted versus like, you know, whatever it is, single breast,

Ben Lawler [00:46:12] Single breasted trousers that used to be pleaded. Now it's plain front. So again, these things will change, the pendulum will swing back and forth, but in my opinion, people will always dress up. People will always want to look the part and dress the part out there.

Vance Crowe [00:46:32] And for you, do you have to have some kind of malleability? I find that as I get older, I start to find things I like and I just want to stay with them. But you're in the world of fashion, which, I mean, while men's fashion may not change that quickly, it's still changing. You must see things that people are putting in their lines to sell that you're like, this is crazy. Like who, who would get this? But then eventually it becomes a part of regular culture.

Ben Lawler [00:46:55] I think there's a fine line, right? There's, you wanna be on the cutting edge, but you don't want to take it too far. You know, I remember years back, we were in Lake Como in Milan, it was a company trip and I saw a guy walking down the street wearing just a beautifully tailored jacket, shirt and tie. But on the bottom he was wearing matching shorts. And I thought to myself, this will never happen. Sure enough that following week we were back in the States and I see King LeBron, he's wearing it. And I'm like, well here it is. It's come. So to your point, I think there's runway fashion, right? There's fashion that you're gonna see on the cover of GQ Vogue, but then you've got everyday fashion, you've got timeless pieces that will really stay in over the course of time.

Vance Crowe [00:47:47] What is the, the runway fashion for? Because you see people being, you know, dressing up, you know, women wearing these hats that are totally insane. Is it just art or is it something else?

Ben Lawler [00:48:00] I would argue it's a, it's a combination of things, but it, first and foremost, it's it's art. Some, it's that, it's that shock factor. It's like, did you see what that person is wearing? Right? It's that wow factor. But I think it's also being on the cutting edge, you know, who's gonna be the trailblazer? Who's gonna start a trend that's going to catch fire and will others follow the lead? There's certain companies and certain trends that will take off, but there's others that are maybe in for, in for a week or so. But in my opinion, the, again, the timeless the classics, that's where most of my customers are. I would say, I would argue that 80 to 90%, they want the pieces that they're gonna wear for years to come.

Vance Crowe [00:48:48] That it'll be cool five years from now. Even

Ben Lawler [00:48:50] Then there's a handful of just like, listen, I wanna see the latest, the greatest. I wanna see that, that garment that has that pop factor, that wow experience.

Vance Crowe [00:49:02] So you have to deal with things like color and matching and these things. Is this something that came naturally to you? Do you enjoy being able to put all these things together?

Ben Lawler [00:49:11] You know, at the end of the day, I would say since childhood I was always well dressed and I always paid attention to, to detail. But in this business I've learned a lot, you know, of course, you know, fabric and colors and construction. But more than anything it's been people skills. Just learning how to communicate and understand people. And when it comes to colors, it's, yeah, part of it is matching with hair color and eye color to make sure that things match up. But to be honest, most guys, they just stick with the classics, you know, for suits, navies and grays, which everybody can wear.

Vance Crowe [00:49:50] Yeah, I was hyper cognizant today of like, okay, I generally try and put gray socks with brown shoes, but I was running out of it, I'm running around, I'm like, I wonder if Ben, because he knows so much about fashion, are you more judgmental of people or not judgmental of people Like it's like my, my wife is a physical therapist and as much as she wants to deny it, she looks at somebody's posture and knows all about them because she can't turn it off.

Ben Lawler [00:50:17] Yeah, that's, I, that's a good question. I would, I would say I do my best not to judge, right? I, I would rather look and, and see if I can help. You know, for example, if I see something that maybe I can help with, I, I would simply say, Hey Vance, could I make a recommendation? You know, most people are receptive, but occasionally people will get upset. But yeah, I do my best not to be judgmental.

Vance Crowe [00:50:45] So we were just talking about color and I had a really interesting experience yesterday in that I was, I have a friend that's really into the physics of light.

Ben Lawler [00:50:54] Okay.

Vance Crowe [00:50:55] And I was talking with her, her name's Kate, and she, and I was saying like, oh, I've really struggled with like how to understand different colors, primary colors. Yes.

Ben Lawler [00:51:03] And

Vance Crowe [00:51:03] You know what she told me? What'd she say? She said, did you know that paint colors and light are not the same things? And in fact, like when we think of the primary colors, if I say the primary colors to you, what are those colors? Do you know?

Ben Lawler [00:51:16] Gosh, tell me.

Vance Crowe [00:51:17] They're red, yellow, blue, right? Red,

Ben Lawler [00:51:19] Yellow, blue. So

Vance Crowe [00:51:20] You take blue and yellow and you combine it to make green. Yes.

Ben Lawler [00:51:23] You

Vance Crowe [00:51:23] Take red and blue and you combine it to make purple, right? These, yes,

Ben Lawler [00:51:27] These

Vance Crowe [00:51:27] Very, so color works that way when it's paint, but when it's light it doesn't work that way. Okay. And in fact she was like, okay, I've got an experiment for you to do with your daughter. And it was, I want you to get three lasers, get a red laser, a blue laser, and a green laser and get those three lasers and point them all at this a similar spot.

Ben Lawler [00:51:49] Okay.

Vance Crowe [00:51:50] What do you think happens if you get all lasers to come to those three lasers to come back to the same spot?

Ben Lawler [00:51:55] That's a good question.

Vance Crowe [00:51:56] You get white light.

Ben Lawler [00:51:58] Really? Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:51:59] Be and like if you would think like if I mixed red paint, green paint and blue paint together, I'd get some weird brownish thing.

Ben Lawler [00:52:07] That's what I was thinking. I was thinking a dark color.

Vance Crowe [00:52:09] Yeah, but that's because paint is like a medium. So the way that it operates is different than light.

Ben Lawler [00:52:16] Okay. And

Vance Crowe [00:52:17] That like you, just because you understand paint colors does not necessarily transfer to an understanding of light.

Ben Lawler [00:52:25] Interesting.

Vance Crowe [00:52:26] Wow. Isn't that wild?

Ben Lawler [00:52:27] Learn something new every day.

Vance Crowe [00:52:29] Yeah. And so this like combined like, because Kate's really into figuring out how can I expose plants to different colors of light in different frequencies? Yes. So that they will actually come to seed faster. You could actually trick the plant into imagining that it's experienced more sunlight than it actually has. Okay. But like, and then you like, so I was thinking, oh, you could take this information and you could do it with all these color things that I could about. Yes.

Ben Lawler [00:52:54] And

Vance Crowe [00:52:54] So I'm now learning that light and paint are different things.

Ben Lawler [00:52:57] Wow. Well I appreciate you sharing that with me.

Vance Crowe [00:53:00] Yeah. So it's just always so funny because you mentioned things like color to one person and the context for you is how is this gonna make the man, how is this gonna set somebody up to look right? And you mentioned it to a plant person and they're talking about totally different things that look

Ben Lawler [00:53:14] Different language

Vance Crowe [00:53:15] There almost exactly the same. Wow.

Ben Lawler [00:53:17] Yeah. With clothing, I look at that contrast, you know, so meaning if you have a dark colored garment, typically you wanna offset that with a lighter colored shirt and the tie, that's typically just, that's the artwork. That's what kind of brings it all together.

Vance Crowe [00:53:30] Why do brown and black, why do black socks not go with brown shoes?

Ben Lawler [00:53:35] Well, typically you don't wanna match your socks with your shoes. You wanna match the sock with the trouser.

Vance Crowe [00:53:42] Oh

Ben Lawler [00:53:42] Yeah. So if you're wearing,

Vance Crowe [00:53:44] That's my mistake there.

Ben Lawler [00:53:45] So again, like I'm wearing, if you wanna put Navy with Navy, you know what I would recommend for you is if this is olive match up an olive sock with your trouser, that's gonna be a better look.

Vance Crowe [00:53:56] Oh, that's interesting. But

Ben Lawler [00:53:58] That being said, you see some people now, they wanna mix it up. You see all these funky, these crazy socks out there. But if you want that timeless classic look match your hosiery with your trouser,

Vance Crowe [00:54:09] Oh, I had no idea. And that's the funny thing about fashion in and of itself, like there are rules, right? That are guidelines that tell you, hey, this is how you can not look like an idiot. Yes.

Ben Lawler [00:54:18] But

Vance Crowe [00:54:19] Like the real amount of fashion is how close can you get to the edges of that thing.

Ben Lawler [00:54:24] That's right.

Vance Crowe [00:54:24] Without tumbling over the side,

Ben Lawler [00:54:25] Without going over the edge. Yeah. We see it all the time.

Vance Crowe [00:54:29] And are you a fashion forward person? Are you, I mean you, you've said several times now you match your audience, but if you're going out, you're not, there's no audience there, it's you and the family and you wanna do something fancy. Are you on the edge of fashion or are you doing something classic?

Ben Lawler [00:54:44] I would say I'm middle of the road. Yeah. Not too far in one direction or the other. I like to kinda kind of blend in again, depending on the, the situation. I mean if it's a, if it's a black tie event, I might rock a, you know, a burgundy paisley tuxedo jacket with a cool bow tie. Maybe some suede loafers. But again, it really depends on the, on the particular situation.

Vance Crowe [00:55:10] Well man, I know that you have like hundreds of other people to always see around and so I'm so grateful you were able to swing by and have like a quick podcast on fashion.

Ben Lawler [00:55:20] Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, Vance. This has been, this has been a lot of fun.

Vance Crowe [00:55:24] We'll have you back on again.

Ben Lawler [00:55:26] Count me in.