Kevin King: Lawyer that writes contracts and builds relationships

Kevin King [00:00:00] One thing about St. Louis Bank is we're very, very acutely aware of and compliant with federal regulations

Vance Crowe [00:00:09] And,

Kevin King [00:00:09] And with, and with the Missouri Division of Finance. I mean, it's, we

Vance Crowe [00:00:13] It's good to hear your lawyer say That's

Kevin King [00:00:14] That. Well, no, I mean, hear it. I mean, that's just the way it is. And it's the way it should be. You know, we wanna be strictly compliant. This is such a gray area. It's, it's really frustrating from my perspective because it's a federal issue and they should fix it. This is the Vance Crow podcast.

Vance Crowe [00:00:38] Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. This week's interview is with an attorney named Kevin King. And if you are a person from St. Louis, it would be highly likely that you have met Kevin, because as you will hear from the very beginning of this interview, Kevin knows everyone. And it is actually no coincidence that I'm talking with Kevin. He's not the tort attorney or class action attorney that I was talking about before a few episodes ago. He's actually an attorney that does contracts and legal disputes, and you'll find out a little bit more about his history. But not only does he do those things in general, Kevin is actually my attorney. He helped me restart my company when I left Bayer. And now I'm doing some consulting work and public speaking. And I had to have contracts in order to be able to set up my travel arrangements and, and the fees for, for me coming to speak. And I had a chance to sit down with Kevin and talk with him. One of the first things you'll notice in this conversation is that while many of the other experts I talk with, dive deep really quickly into how they studied their field and the inner workings of their deep knowledge. And in a way, Kevin does that too, but not in the way that you would think of normally for an attorney. You see, Kevin is a man that has built an entire career on building relationships and helping people work out their differences. And rather than be a person that really hammers on every single line of a contract, he finds a way to make things work.

Vance Crowe [00:02:18] And I think that's what's so interesting about this interview, is it gives the inner workings of an attorney that you can really relate with, that you can understand why he does what he does and how he's become such a valued member of the community. You will hear after the first, I don't know, about 45 minutes of the conversation, we do start to get into some technical information. At one point we talk about how our banks, specifically the bank that Kevin and I are both involved with St. Louis Bank, how are they handling the fact that the federal government still regulates cannabis? And yet there are states that are opening up the ability to grow medical marijuana or even recreational marijuana. So how can banks interact with this when there's two sets of laws that seem to be contradicting one another? Another thing we talk about is, you know, the difference between federal and state laws in general and how this has impacted things like biotech and, and how laws get created. So this has a little something for everyone. It was a great pleasure to sit down with Kevin. He did me a great big favor. The night before an interview that I had scheduled, they had to reschedule, but he gracefully stepped in, stopped by my house super early in the morning with his cup of coffee, and we were able to sit down and record this. I want to thank you so much and enjoy this conversation with one of St.

Vance Crowe [00:03:49] Louis's True Gems. Kevin King. Kevin King, welcome to the podcast.

Kevin King [00:04:00] How you doing Vance?

Vance Crowe [00:04:01] I'm doing great. So last week I went to the horse races just outside of St. Louis in, in Fairmont Park. I actually didn't even know there was horse racing outside of St. Louis, but we show up for an event for firemen and police officers. And there before me stands Kevin King. I didn't even know you were gonna be there. My own attorney, the attorney for the bank. And so I'm surprised to see you there and as we go through the horse park, this is a new experience for me because I'd never been to one before. And you see that there's all different stretches of society. There's the people that own horses, there's the people that are just there betting. And then there's just kind of the people in the pit, you know, with their little tickets, just waiting for the horses to go by. And as we are walking through the park, everyone, everyone, everyone knows Kevin King. And I don't think it's, 'cause you're out at the horse tracks. I think they knew you from other places. How in the world do you know as many people as you know, from the horse owners all the way down to the guys betting on the tracks?

Kevin King [00:05:08] Well, I think it's, I've, you know, I've been around a long time, so that helps. Been practicing law for 38 years. Mostly in St. Louis. I was in Jefferson City for three and a half years as general counsel to the Attorney General. That was over 25 years ago. And then came back to St. Louis and started my own firm and had my own law firm since then. But my family was very involved in politics. My father was in the state legislature for 20 years, six from Franklin County, and then 14 years from St. Louis County. I'm the youngest of five. My older brothers were involved in politics. And then I got involved a little bit, not on the side of being a candidate, but sort of behind the scenes and, and you know, got to know a lot of people doing that. And then I also played basketball at the two years at Mizzou. And then I transferred and played my last two years of eligibility at St. Louis University. And you just, you know, people get to know you through that. And, you know, just being St. Louis is a very parochial town and you get to know a lot of people. And I consider myself a fairly friendly guy. And so

Vance Crowe [00:06:27] I'll say that, that's an understatement

Kevin King [00:06:28] Of it.

Vance Crowe [00:06:29] So you practice law, you know, I've worked with you, you've helped me set up some contracts and, and you know, everything's been smooth sailing with us. But what kind of law do you practice?

Kevin King [00:06:40] Well, when I first started practicing, I was with I right outta school. I was, I went with one of the big firms downtown. I was there about a year and didn't really, it wasn't really my, my thing. And so I left and went with a smaller firm and actually did a lot of bankruptcy work. I was a bankruptcy trustee for two years. When one of the existing trustees took the bench as a bankruptcy judge, I took his place and I was a trustee for two years. I really enjoyed that. That was a

Vance Crowe [00:07:12] What is enjoyable about doing bankruptcy?

Kevin King [00:07:14] Well, you're a trustee, so you're, you're kind of like the, the arbiter you, you are between the debtor and the, the creditors and you sort of administer the case and make sure that, you know, if there's assets that they get dispersed properly and, and that sort of thing.

Vance Crowe [00:07:31] Who paid you in that case?

Kevin King [00:07:34] You're paid by the, you're paid by the court, by, you know, it's, it's a very small fee. Back then it was $35 a case for a no asset case. And that was, if you'd go through it and there were no assets, and then you'd mark that off and, and, but you had, you had a, what they called the 3 41 meeting every month? I'd have, well, twice a month 'cause I had the Hannibal Docket as well. And the debtor would come in and creditors would come in and you'd sit and you'd go through the, the bankruptcy schedules with the, with the debtor and, and ask questions and make sure that, you know, set everything that they needed to say in the schedules. And so you're kind of in the middle. And are

Vance Crowe [00:08:17] They hostile conversations?

Kevin King [00:08:18] No, not at all. Not at all. Oftentimes they, both the attorneys and the debtors would refer me as, your Honor, we have a question. And I'd say, I'm not a judge and I'm just the trustee, so you can call me Kevin. And, but there was a lot of interesting cases too, some very interesting cases. And I was good friends with the judges, got to know the judges real well. And a lot of the bankruptcy attorneys in St. Louis and in Hannibal got to be good friends with many of the attorneys up in Hannibal. One of 'em now Skecher Reland, Charles Reland, his nickname is Sketch. He's now a bankruptcy judge. And that was a lot of fun getting to know those people and, and cre you know, having some contacts in, in that part of the state.

Vance Crowe [00:09:06] Does bankruptcy law work the way that it should? I mean, well,

Kevin King [00:09:10] I don't, I haven't practiced bankruptcy law for a very, very long time, but I think generally it does. And, and I, you know, I think there's a, there's a place for, for the bankruptcy code in, in the legal system, a very important place. If you're on the creditor side, it's, it's a constant battle. But there are a lot of people that just have bad luck and they need a fresh start. And that's what the idea is. The bigger bankruptcies, the chapter elevens with the big corporations, that's a whole different ballgame. That's, that's, it's still bankruptcy, but it's a different, different animal. Chapter seven, chapter 13 cases are individuals who, you know, are just trying to get outta debt or in a chapter 13, work on a plan to pay off their debt. And then chapter 11 cases are usually they're called reorganizations, and that's when they go into bankruptcy. And the automatic stay goes into place, the, the day it's filed, meaning creditors can't take any further action, can't repossess equipment. And big companies then have a time to sort of reset and figure out how they're gonna reorganize and, and pay their creditors. And that's a very complicated process. And there's some excellent, excellent bankruptcy attorneys in St. Louis and, and some good judges. So it's, but the, generally the process works. But the thing that about bankruptcy for me, well, not bankruptcy, but having done bankruptcy, it has been extremely helpful in my practice since then.

Kevin King [00:10:48] Because my practice since then has been primarily mergers, acquisitions, all transactional work, asset purchases, stock purchases, asset sales, stock sales, representing companies in that regard. And also, you know, and you learn so much about, you know, the pitfalls of bankruptcy and what, how that can affect transactions and

Vance Crowe [00:11:17] What pitfalls, meaning the, the ways that people got out of paying their debts or pitfalls in, in some other way.

Kevin King [00:11:23] Well, if you're, how do I answer that question? It goes both ways. But for my clients, they would generally be on the side of, you know, trying to avoid, you know, not getting paid and or losing security, their security interest in whatever assets they might hold. And I do a lot of banking law now, as you know, and I'm the general counsel for St. Louis Bank. And banks always have to be, be and need to be concerned about, you know, the, the impact of a bankruptcy filing. And it's, it doesn't happen that often, but when it does happen, you have to be aware of it and you have to know what to do. And that's really, really helped me in that regard.

Vance Crowe [00:12:07] And so if you enjoyed bankruptcy, what made you decide to go do some other part of law?

Kevin King [00:12:13] Well, I mean, I enjoyed being a trustee, but I did not enjoy representing debtors. And necessarily, I didn't, it, it was, I didn't not, I did not not enjoy representing creditors, but my practice just led me in a different, in a different direction. I had a lot of friends and contacts in St. Louis and I built a practice around just corporate and business law. And that's the way it led me. I mean, it just, it just kind of happened.

Vance Crowe [00:12:44] And so what, what are you doing day in and day out as a, as a lawyer, I, every time I come to your office, you're reading a contract.

Kevin King [00:12:49] Yeah, well, I do a lot of reading, reading, reviewing, writing, drafting, counseling people, but on, on, on their various transactions or whatever. But about a year ago, not, not about a year ago, just almost exactly a year ago, I became general counsel for St. Louis Bank. And prior to that I had been general counsel at Pulaski Bank prior to their merger with Busi Bank. And I was there for 10 years. I had an office at, at Pulaski Bank. I was in my bank office three days a week and in my office two days a week. And now I am full-time in the office at St. Louis Bank, but I still am still in private practice. I have a law partner who now does most all of my drafting and reviewing, and then, then I will help him with, you know, sort of finalizing the documents. But most of my time now is spent working for St. Louis Bank and doing their work.

Vance Crowe [00:13:52] When I saw the contract that you wrote for me to, to go with a speaking engagement, I thought it was gonna be about two paragraphs long, but it ended up being like four or five pages.

Kevin King [00:14:02] That's a short one.

Vance Crowe [00:14:03] And but why, why are things so complicated like that? Why, why is it that there have to be four or five pages of

Kevin King [00:14:10] Yeah, yeah. Of

Vance Crowe [00:14:11] Legal ease to make a docu to make a contract.

Kevin King [00:14:14] I think it's just, it's just evolved over time. Now I do everything I can to minimalize those contracts and only include in them what is necessary, get to the business points, be very clear on the business points, simple

Vance Crowe [00:14:33] Language.

Kevin King [00:14:34] Yeah. You know, straightforward, simple language. Because there was a time when, long, long time ago when I actually litigated in my ear early in my career, and, you know, you want things to be clear, concise, and, you know, that also has helped me in drafting because I, I, I look at it as if, how would a judge review this? How would a jury look at this type of thing? Because

Vance Crowe [00:14:55] That's kind of what it feels like. It feels like people are putting in language in those contracts so that that way they can play games later. Like in, in, I mean, I'm not saying yeah, our contract was great, you know, I'm, I'm No, I

Kevin King [00:15:07] Understand.

Vance Crowe [00:15:08] Happy with it, but I'm saying I think that's one of the things that people don't like about lawyers is that they put together these things, you can't read it. It might as well be Egyptian hieroglyphics, right? And now all of a sudden this is gonna control our future.

Kevin King [00:15:20] Yeah. Well one of the things, I'll use you as an example, one of the things that I like most about dealing with someone like you is that you're very bright, you know, your business. And it's so much easier to represent someone who is very bright and knows their business. Because then when I draft the contract, you look at it, you know exactly what it says, you understand it, and you know, you say, oh wait, we need to change this, or we need to do this. And that just makes it that much easier for me. There are times when, you know, I have clients that aren't as familiar with their business or their, or, you know, particular aspects of their business. And then that makes it more difficult for me because I'm trying to protect them. And you're

Vance Crowe [00:16:11] Trying to see the future to say where there could be conflict, right. When you don't even really know what exactly they could be selling or the type of arrangement that they could be in with another person. Yeah,

Kevin King [00:16:20] That's part of it. I mean, generally you write a con, I mean, I've done it so long now that, you know, and there are provisions and contracts that, what I call the standard, some of the standard language that I wanna make sure that protects you. But that's my job to be aware of that and say, okay, you're gonna be doing this, this, and this, and I wanna make sure that, you know, they come, can't come back and say, because of what Vance said, you know, we incurred damages and we're not gonna let that, I'm not gonna let that happen to you. And there's a, there's a number of other sort of boilerplate provisions that you might say, well, why is pages three and four on here? And I say, well, it's, it, don't worry about it. It's, it's just, it's there, it's needed. Just take my word for it.

Vance Crowe [00:17:03] Okay. So, so, you know, you think about trying to see into the future and writing down for these eventualities or things that could happen. And you're reading every word. Do you read every word when something pops up on the computer and it says, I agree to, and it's, you know, 'cause you want to use this app?

Kevin King [00:17:20] That's a good question. Yeah, that's a good question. There are a number of agreements, leases, asset purchase agreements, stock purchase agreements, subordination. I mean, I could go on and on. I already know what they say generally. Okay. It's not like I skim through 'em. I'm a bit obsessive when it comes to that. I read it word for word, but I also know where, what the important parts of that are, because I've done it so many times. And I can go, if somebody said to me, okay, you've only got five minutes to review this 60 page asset purchase agreement, I'd say, okay, I could at least go to the parts that I know are extremely important. But I don't do that. I mean, I read it,

Vance Crowe [00:18:08] But, so, but when you're getting a new version of Microsoft Office and it's got that thing that you could scroll for,

Kevin King [00:18:15] I have to be, I have to admit I do not read those.

Vance Crowe [00:18:17] Should, should people be reading those?

Kevin King [00:18:20] I suppose they should, but they're not gonna change 'em. So

Vance Crowe [00:18:23] I guess, yeah. So,

Kevin King [00:18:24] You know, I mean, you either, you, you know, I'm a little bit guilty of that when it comes to my own personal stuff. I understand, you know, that the likelihood of anything happening is so minimal that oftentimes my wife, who's a registered nurse, she, I, I, I let her read that stuff and then she'll come to me with questions. 'cause she's really, really bright and, and, and, and she almost knows what to look for now. 'cause she's, we've been married 43 years, still my best friend. And, and she knows me like the, like the back of her own hands. So she knows. And I, and I her, so it's almost like we know what each other's thinking.

Vance Crowe [00:19:08] So you have these really close relationships with a lot of the people that you do legal work with.

Kevin King [00:19:14] I do.

Vance Crowe [00:19:15] What kind of challenge does that present when you're trying to think about writing up a contract form to protect? I mean, you can't protect people from everything. If you do, then people won't wanna work, work with them necessarily. What, what goes into thinking about how to protect somebody that you care about legally?

Kevin King [00:19:29] Well, you do the same things you do for anybody. You, you do the best job you can to protect them. You try to negotiate the best terms you can in most cases when it comes to business decisions, I tell my clients, I don't make business decisions unless you ask me to give you advice on it or you don't understand it. And you'd like me to weigh in on it, you know, say the value and say somebody wants to sell their company. And, and I usually say, well, do you have an idea what it's worth? And have you done an, an evaluation or have you had a third party do it? Have you talked to your CPA about it? What method did you use to value it? And you know, most of the time they have something in mind and they've had, they've gone through the process. But if they haven't, then I will help them do that. Because I've, you know, I've been involved in it so long. I'm not a business evaluator. I'm not an accountant, but, you know, I can read a financial statement and I've been through the process enough to, you know, kind of guide him along and, and if I don't have a, a good feeling about my particular conclusion or my thoughts on it, I can refer 'em to somebody that, that can help 'em as an expert. But in terms of getting back to your question about, you know, representing people that I'm close to, it's the same thing. I do the best job I can and I tell 'em, look, this is not foolproof. You know, humans are involved in the, in these transactions. And I don't, I don't try to make excuses upfront, but I say, you know, this is the best I can do.

Kevin King [00:21:01] It should be fine. But nothing's foolproof.

Vance Crowe [00:21:04] Can you think of a time when the law didn't work the way that you thought that it should have or could have?

Kevin King [00:21:09] Oh, sure. Yeah. I, I don't, by calling myself a litigator is a big stretch. But early in my career, I did try some cases, tried a number of cases, particularly in bankruptcy court. Those were administrative trials. They're, they're still trials, rules of evidence are in play and all that. And I'm comfortable in the courtroom. I think if I brushed up on the rules of evidence, which would not be easy to do because you got, you know, it's something, you know, people that go in the courtroom every day, it's easy for 'em. But I've always been comfortable in a courtroom when I, when I was younger and I had, I had three cases in the, in the Missouri Eastern District Court of Appeals. And I remember one case, you know, that's where you argue in front of a panel. It's not a trial. You're arguing on appeals. So you're, you know, there's no witnesses. You're just arguing the points on appeal. And before.

Vance Crowe [00:22:01] And the panel is a group of judges, or they're Yeah,

Kevin King [00:22:03] They're

Vance Crowe [00:22:04] Regular people.

Kevin King [00:22:04] No, they're a group of judges. No, it's, it's, there's, there's trial judges and then there's appellate judges.

Vance Crowe [00:22:09] Okay.

Kevin King [00:22:09] Okay. And in Missouri, there's Associate Circuit Court, and then the circuit court, those are trial level judges. And then there's the courts of appeal, like the Eastern District Court of Appeal, the Western District Courts of Appeal. Those are, those are your first level of appellate courts. And that's usually where it stops. And then there's a Supreme Court after that. Missouri Supreme Court never argued a case in Missouri Supreme Court, but I had a case in front of the Missouri Eastern District Court of Appeals, and it was, it wasn't the full, what they call on B, which is all of the judges. It was, they usually, it's a panel of three. And I was, I'm still convinced that I was right. But they ruled against me. So, you know, yeah. There are times when I think, how,

Vance Crowe [00:22:55] How did it go? What happened?

Kevin King [00:22:56] Well, I mean, they just, there it was, it was a complicated case and I felt like the trial court did not rule correctly. So I, we appealed it and, you know, without getting into the details of the case, it was just, I just felt that my legal arguments were very strong and they clearly disagreed with me.

Vance Crowe [00:23:21] How is it to keep an attitude like that? You know, it's, it's funny because we live in a world where there's sports. You know, you, you have a start time and an end time. Whoever's got the highest points at the end wins a game. And then you've got business, which is, there is no end time. It just keeps going. Right? Right. You either succeed or you don't. But with law, it's a little bit of a mixture of that, right. There is an end point. Oh yeah, there's a guilty or innocent or a

Kevin King [00:23:48] Win or loser

Vance Crowe [00:23:48] Win or loser. But then you've just gotta keep going. I guess my question is mostly based around how does it feel to be in a system where sometimes you are, right? But the but, but they went against you.

Kevin King [00:24:05] It's like anything else. I mean, it's, you know, I, I played b you know, basketball at a very competitive level. And, you know, we won some great games, won some big games, we lost some games, we should have won. And, you know, you learn to live with both, and you try to keep as even keel as you can because you've got another game in three or four days. And, you know, it, it, it's, it's a lot like that. You know, it's not a whole lot different than that. You just, you just move on, you know, and you, you, it's not like you don't care. You just, you just have to move on and, and deal with the next, excuse me, the next problem.

Vance Crowe [00:24:49] Have you seen court cases where a wrong was righted in a, in a Oh,

Kevin King [00:24:53] Sure.

Vance Crowe [00:24:53] Profound way? Oh,

Kevin King [00:24:54] Sure. I mean, you know, I can't remember specifically, but yeah, I mean, I've, yeah, I've seen cases where a judge will come in and say, okay, you know, it's not so much that a wrong, that the wrong thing happened at some other level of court. It's that something wrong and something bad is happening prior to getting there. And, and the court straighten it out. And that's a good feeling. I mean, we do have the best system in the world. It's by no means perfect, but it is the best legal system in the world.

Vance Crowe [00:25:27] And what are the things that you were surprised about when you, when you became a part of the legal system, right? The, the, I mean, like, there's the image that people have, this is the way the courts work because they either watch Perry Mason growing up, right? And they saw Law and Order, but how is it different than what people see on television?

Kevin King [00:25:45] It's a lot different. I mean, I'd say 95 plus percent of cases that are filed in court never go to trial. They get settled. And so people think that if a lot of people just have this perception that if you're a lawyer, you're in court all day long, that it couldn't be further from the truth. In, in my case, I'm never in court anymore because I do corporate and business law. And so I'm in my office, I'm meeting with clients, you know, it's, it's, it's not glamorous. I mean, I've always told people practicing law or being a lawyer is no different than any other job. It's, it's a job. And you try to do the best you can. And I know that there have been times in the past when, when we hire associates, and this kind of segues into my feeling about being a lawyer is just, there's nothing glamorous about it. It's, it's, you know, I try to do the best job I can. I try to help people, try to help my clients. But I, when we hired associates in our, in my, my firm, you know, I'm usually the last one to meet with them. And, and I trust my partners immensely if they think someone's great. So when I, when I meet with 'em, I, I usually tell 'em, I just have two rules. One, answer your phone, And if you can't answer your phone, return the calls as soon as you can.

Kevin King [00:27:18] Because people want, you know, they want response, they want a response, and they don't.

Vance Crowe [00:27:22] Oh, that's good. I mean, that's

Kevin King [00:27:23] Really good. It's, it's, it's just true. And I've, I've conducted my, myself in that manner ever since I started practicing law. Because when someone calls you and they want to talk to you, they usually have an issue or a problem. And, you know, they're concerned and, you know, you try to put 'em at ease. And what I've, what I've always done is say, okay, now after I meet with 'em, okay, now this is my problem. You don't need to worry about it anymore. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it's really true. And because they're scared, they don't know, you know? Oh,

Vance Crowe [00:27:56] A hundred percent

Kevin King [00:27:57] What to think.

Vance Crowe [00:27:57] Anybody that I know that deals with a lawyer that has one, they if, if they, if their complaint is, he doesn't call me back,

Kevin King [00:28:05] Oh,

Vance Crowe [00:28:05] That you're in a bad spot.

Kevin King [00:28:07] Well, there's a, the number one category of, of complaints to the, to the Missouri bar on lawyers is not returning their phone calls or answering their emails. It's a number one complaint that's filed against lawyers by far. And it's just common courtesy besides being, you know, professional. It's just common courtesy to get back to people. The other rule that I tell 'em is, you treat everybody the same as if, as you would me or anyone else in this office, you know, just because I'm a senior partner in this firm, and you, you want, you think you should treat me with respect. I'm no different than the guy that comes in at night that grabs our trash cans and throws it away. He's got a job to do. What he does is just as important what we do. It's just a different category of work. And you treat that person with the same respect and and dignity that you'd want to, that you'd want to be treated with. 'cause that's really important to me. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:29:11] I mean, I would say that somebody else might be putting me on if they had said that, but there is a clear line between the way that you treat people and why, you know, as many people as you do. Yeah. That, that is, where did you learn that?

Kevin King [00:29:24] My mom and dad. I was, you know, wonderful parents. My dad was best man in my wedding, as a matter of fact.

Vance Crowe [00:29:32] No kidding.

Kevin King [00:29:32] Yeah. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:29:33] That doesn't happen very often.

Kevin King [00:29:34] Yeah. He, he, he, I miss him dearly. He's, he died 20, 25 years ago. And I still think of him often. I still draw in his wisdom. He was a wonderfully, incredibly bright guy. Never went to college. Well, he went three semesters to college, right? During the depression, had to drop out because he ran, he couldn't eat, he didn't have any money. My mom and dad were wonderful people. And my dad went into the insurance business eventually and was successful. And they were so generous in with their, with their money and their time, and just, they were great examples. And as were my siblings, and it just makes so much sense to treat people with respect unless they disrespect you or something like that. But then, you know, you just try to avoid 'em. But it's real. I mean, it's, it's not hard. It's, you know, it, everybody's the same. Nobody's better than anyone else. You know, it's, we're all in this together. And, and I'm not like trying to be Pollyanna here, that's just,

Vance Crowe [00:30:40] Well, it's stoic in a way, right? It's, it's saying, if you don't put people up in a hierarchy of who's better than the other one, then you have to start saying like, I just have to treat whoever is in front of me with as much of presence of mind as, as I can. One of the things that's unique about you, Kevin, is I've never known anybody that is as regularly, I mean, I, I don't mean for this to sound too simplistic, but is as regularly happy as you are. Like, you're, you're generally, you know, the life of a party. I can remember one time going out to dinner with you and a group of people and the next day being like, well, Kevin must have had a lot to drink last night. He was really the life of the party. And then, and then coming to realize you don't actually drink. No. You're just that happy. You're just that energetic and excited. Yeah.

Kevin King [00:31:28] Is

Vance Crowe [00:31:28] That something that you work at? Is it just your natural

Kevin King [00:31:30] Decision? No, I mean, I don't, I not necessarily, I, I just enjoy people and I do, I don't drink. I quit, you know, I slowed down. I never, my wife and I never drank a lot, but, and then when my kids started driving, you know, I, my wife and I didn't stick our heads in the sand. We knew that there was a possibility they'd be at parties and there'd be alcohol there. So our rule was, if you have the car and you've been drinking, you call us and, or you call me and I will come pick you up.

Vance Crowe [00:32:02] Did any of 'em ever take you up on it?

Kevin King [00:32:04] It happened, I think two or three times only happened two or three times, and no questions asked. No, you don't get in trouble. Just, you know, we want you to be safe. And so

Vance Crowe [00:32:13] Was it hard to show up and see your kid drunk and not

Kevin King [00:32:16] No. And

Vance Crowe [00:32:16] Not say anything? No.

Kevin King [00:32:17] No. It wa I mean, it, you know, I was a kid too once, so I understand. So then I, you know, we, I, I wouldn't drink on the weekends, so I never drank during the weekend anyway. And, you know, I wouldn't come home and have a cocktail. And so, and then when I didn't, we weren't going out on the weekends and for dinner, I wouldn't drink because I knew I wanted to be sober or, you know, pick up the kids and then, and then it just slowed down, slow down, slow down. So, you know, I just, I don't know, 7, 8, 9, 10 years ago, I just stopped all together. And I don't really know why. Occasionally Julie and I, if we're out to dinner or something and she has a glass of wine, I might have a glass of wine. But I can't remember the last time I did actually. But is

Vance Crowe [00:32:56] It hard when you're at a, do you have to consciously think, because if I went to a business dinner, I, I mean, it's not like I'm, I'm drink like overindulging, but if everybody's ordering wine at the table and I didn't, it, it would be, it would be a sacrifice for me. At least

Kevin King [00:33:12] At this point. I don't, I, I could care less really. It doesn't even, no. Doesn't even phage me.

Vance Crowe [00:33:16] So you don't have the pull at all to be like, oh, just if I could just taste that sweet red wine is

Kevin King [00:33:21] Making

Vance Crowe [00:33:22] Steak. No.

Kevin King [00:33:22] Nah.

Vance Crowe [00:33:23] Interesting.

Kevin King [00:33:24] Not at all. Not at all. You know, if people, if people are gonna think something less of me because I don't have a drink, that's on them.

Vance Crowe [00:33:32] Yeah. I mean, there's, the, the, getting back to the original point, I mean, one of the most interesting parts about you is that you have this gregarious, happy personality. I don't think most people even recognize, and that's not something you have to cultivate. You, you don't sit there and say, Kevin, you're gonna be happy to do no. Looking into the mirror and trying to talk yourself up. You're just naturally this way.

Kevin King [00:33:52] You know, I'm, I'm, I'm lucky. I had a great childhood, wonderful college athletic career. A a fabulous wife who is still my best friend, wonderful kids. I mean, I've been blessed with just many, many things. And now three grandchildren, I can be quite goofy, and my kids will tell me all the time, dad, you're so goofy.

Vance Crowe [00:34:20] And so to this makes me think of, you know, if, if I'm a regular person and I get a legal letter, you know, something that somebody's gonna bring a suit against me.

Kevin King [00:34:30] No,

Vance Crowe [00:34:31] My stomach's gonna drop and I'm going to be worried about this at, at an extreme level. Yeah. Are you that way? No.

Kevin King [00:34:37] Do

Vance Crowe [00:34:37] You do so? Why not?

Kevin King [00:34:39] No. 'cause I've seen it so many times, and I know not, it's not like I have a crystal ball, but I can, I can see a letter like that, talk to the person and ask 'em what the circumstances are and say, you know, okay, this is really not something to be concerned with, or we, we should do this, this, and this, and this should resolve it.

Vance Crowe [00:34:59] But certainly sometimes they get letters that they should be concerned.

Kevin King [00:35:02] There's no question. I mean, you know. Absolutely. And you know, my job is just to assess the situation and try to put 'em at ease and say, okay, here's, here's what I think is going to happen. I can't, I can't, you know, promise that. But you know, here are your, here are your options and here's what, here's the way we go. You know, it's not like in, I can look at a letter they get and say, oh, don't worry about it.

Vance Crowe [00:35:29] So I

Kevin King [00:35:30] Can't, you know, you take everything seriously.

Vance Crowe [00:35:33] So this came about very quickly. You were, you were kind enough to come by the studios right? At the, at the last minute, super early in the morning, but in doing a little bit of research, came across an article about a time that I believe it was an article about you and the way that you were able to be a lawyer for people when they really, really needed it. Do you, is so I don't, I don't know. Is that a story you're okay with telling you? Sure, sure. Probably better than I do. Sure. You know, I'm talking about the adoption one, right?

Kevin King [00:36:00] Right.

Vance Crowe [00:36:00] So, so what happened there?

Kevin King [00:36:02] Well, the most satisfaction I get out of practicing law and, and all the experience that I've had now and, and the context I've made is, is helping people when they really need help and can't afford it. And this particular instance, this was probably the most satisfying thing I've ever been involved in, in my legal career. And it was about 25 years ago. And Mark Vitter, who is, who actually started the St. Louis Business Journal way back when, he still writes a column called reflections every week in the St. Louis Business Journal. It's on, you know, court toward the back. And it's, and, and he's an, he's an incredibly bright guy and just very, very successful and just a great person. And we were talking one day and, you know, we became very good friends. And I was telling him about this particular thing that, that happened. And it was, and the next thing I know, a couple weeks later, there's this article in the paper, he didn't use names, which I'm glad, very glad about, but there was a couple who was going through a private adoption, and my brother John, my oldest brother, what

Vance Crowe [00:37:23] Is a private adoption? It's

Kevin King [00:37:24] Where there's, there's a social worker involved and they have a, you know, the birth mother does not want to place the child in a, in an adoption, you know, home. They just, they want to seek somebody out who is, who they meet and feel comfortable, you know, you know, having their child adopted by. And so this couple had used my brother John in the past. My brother John's passed away now, but he has three adopted children. And, and so he did this initial adoption for him. And right at the, I mean, literally the day before, the birth mother changed her mind and wanted to keep the baby. Oh. Which, which happens. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:38:13] And she can do that.

Kevin King [00:38:14] Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. And the couple was devastated. Just devastated. My brother was devastated. And so fast forward six, eight months a year, there's another opportunity for them. And my brother John came to me and said, Kevin, I, I can't do this. This was really difficult for me last time. You're gonna have to handle this. And I said, okay, fine. So we went through the

Vance Crowe [00:38:38] Difficult, because he had grown close with the family and well,

Kevin King [00:38:41] Yeah. Had

Vance Crowe [00:38:41] To deliver some pretty

Kevin King [00:38:42] Terrible news, bad news. And, and he has, he had three adopted children himself. And it was just, it was just hard on him. And, you know, he said, I just would prefer that, you know, and I knew the couple as well. So went through the process, and the baby was born in Rolla, Missouri, and the social worker and I drove to Rolla the night before the, the hearing, there had to be a hearing to, to terminate the father's parental rights. And he didn't show up for the hearing and that, which was fine. He, he knew about it, but he was fine with the adoption. So we had to go there the night before. And I had to go to a lawyer, friend of mine's law office in roll and, and type up some, you know, short documents and, and a proposed court order terminating parental rights. And then the social worker and I went to the court the next morning and there was a hearing, and the birth mother was there. She had had the baby. She was out of the hospital. The baby was still in the hospital for, not for medical reasons, but because of the adoption, the birth mother was wonderful. I mean, she said, you know, I've got three children, I just can't afford it, and I want this child to have the best life it can. And, you know,

Vance Crowe [00:39:59] Wow. Yeah.

Kevin King [00:40:00] It was really, she, I was so happy to, to meet the birth mother. And the social worker told me, you'll be surprised, you know, this birth mother was just fantastic. I mean, I had so much respect for her. And, and she was at the hearing and we, you know, put the father's, we had the father's affidavit that he was consenting to the termination of parental rights. And the judge read it and signed the order of adoption and the social worker and I left the court, drove to the hospital in roll, went up to the, the maternity ward where the baby was, and handed the court order. They knew that we were coming handed the court order to the head nurse. And they went in, got the baby a, a little girl, and handed the baby to us. And it was at a time when I had young children. And so I had car seats in my car, an infant seat. And we went downstairs, we went, we left the hospital, went down to the parking lot outta my car, put the baby in the car seat, drove back to St. Louis, drove right to the couple's house and handed them their new baby. And it was tears all around. It was just fantastic,

Vance Crowe [00:41:28] A good day to be an attorney.

Kevin King [00:41:30] It was the best. And we didn't, and I didn't charge 'em because I, I, you know, we don't, I I would never charge for something like that. And it was just, just wonderful. And it was, I'll never forget it. And they just recently sent me a picture of the, of, now the 20, I guess 25-year-old.

Vance Crowe [00:41:49] Oh my gosh. She was 25 years ago.

Kevin King [00:41:51] Yeah. Yeah. And she's just, she's great. She's doing great. She graduated college, has a good job. And she's wonderful, wonderful. Just the best of, of anything I've ever been able to be involved in being, to have the privilege of being involved in.

Vance Crowe [00:42:07] So how do you go from having that level of a, of a high, you know, because you're getting to do such a satisfying thing to then working on contracts, staying in.

Kevin King [00:42:16] Yeah, I mean, you have to, you have to earn a living. So, you know, you just, like I said, being a lawyer is not glamorous necessarily. It's just, it's just work. And you, you know, you have a, a certain skill set that you use to earn a living and to, you know, help other people and, and, and try to make it as enjoyable as you can. And the biggest, the biggest thing is enjoy work. Who, who you work with. And right now at St. Louis Bank, what a, what a tremendous group of people. I mean, I look forward to when I leave here, I'm heading over there. I look forward to going there because great people,

Vance Crowe [00:42:52] For people that don't normally touch the legal system, and they're going out to find an attorney because they wanna start an LLC, or let, let's say they got a letter that scares 'em, somebody's gonna sue 'em for something. How should they know whether or not their attorney is any good?

Kevin King [00:43:07] That's a good question, because I think the general public, if they haven't had any involvement with attorneys, which is most of the general public, hopefully they haven't had the need to have involvement with an attorney or the system. I think that they don't know. They don't know. Most people think every attorney is just like every other attorney. And they all, they know everything about anything there is to know in the law, which is absolutely not the case. You know, that's why if a client comes to me or a person comes to me with a particular situation that's not in my wheelhouse, I have a number of attorney friends that I know and trust, I can refer them to them.

Vance Crowe [00:43:49] So then the advice would be find an attorney that you know and trust and then say, who's the best at this type

Kevin King [00:43:56] Of

Vance Crowe [00:43:56] Thing? Yes.

Kevin King [00:43:56] Yeah. And, or, or ask someone, you know, if you don't know any attorneys, ask around your friends who, who have you used that you like, you know, that type of thing. And until you find someone that you know, that you trust, trusted this person and then, you know, go from there. But

Vance Crowe [00:44:15] How many times have the attorney not returning your phone call? Should you have before you start getting worried?

Kevin King [00:44:20] The first time?

Vance Crowe [00:44:21] The first time,

Kevin King [00:44:22] Yeah. You know, you, you return phone calls. It's that simple. You don't, you know, you don't just blow somebody off.

Vance Crowe [00:44:29] Why is it that you and I both are fully aware that attorneys don't return phone calls? I mean, I know you had said this is the most common complaint, but it, it would seem to me that are they either overworked or they make so much money that any one call doesn't make, make a difference? Like, what's going on there? That, that's what happens?

Kevin King [00:44:50] I, I don't think it's the money thing. It, I think it's, you know, 'cause a lot of attorneys don't make so much money. I mean, they, there are some very, very successful attorneys, but there's a lot of attorneys that grind it out every day for, you know, not a lot of money.

Vance Crowe [00:45:05] Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. The, my the perception is that if you're an attorney,

Kevin King [00:45:09] No,

Vance Crowe [00:45:10] You're, you're, you're making a couple hundred thousand dollars a year and

Kevin King [00:45:13] Doing

Vance Crowe [00:45:14] Pretty well. I mean,

Kevin King [00:45:15] You have to work a long time to get there. Unless you go to work for a big law firm that immediately pays you $150,000 a year. And even though you don't know anything about the practice of law, but that's what it takes to get the top students. But there's still a lot of attorneys out there that are grinding it out for 50, 75.

Vance Crowe [00:45:34] It's still a good living. But, but not, not if everybody is expecting that because you're an attorney, you're, you're making a lot of money. Right.

Kevin King [00:45:40] Right. But there, most attorneys would say, well, I, I was too busy or whatever. But I think it's, it can't, no one's too busy to return a phone call now attorneys that are in trial all day, or if I'm in a meeting, you know, a meeting all day. And I, you know, but I always check my messages, especially in our society today where, you know, we've got instant contact with people.

Vance Crowe [00:46:08] You, you can even read your voicemail. I don't want phone calls, but if I get a phone call and somebody leaves me a voicemail, I'm just reading it. I'm not gonna listen to that thing.

Kevin King [00:46:15] Right, right. And, you know, but she, it's just common courtesy. And you know, my wife has been so supportive. I mean, I work often late at the office and then I'll come home and I'll, I don't usually work at home, but I will look at my messages and sometimes return calls from home. Especially if it's someone that I, you know, haven't spoken with that day and I need to get back to 'em. And she's been so supportive throughout my entire career, which makes it a lot easier. You know, she's not calling me at five o'clock every day saying, when are you gonna be home? Never has. She gets it. She doesn't always like it, but she gets it and she supports me. So that's been helpful.

Vance Crowe [00:47:02] So this is not your area of expertise, but because you've had a marriage that's gone as successfully, it has, but you've also been around the, the block. What do you think of the current state of divorce law in, in either the state of Missouri or the United States? Well,

Kevin King [00:47:17] I think the, the law is fine. It's, I think it's designed to be as equitable as possible to the respective parties involved in a divorce. And I used to do divorces. I did 'em for about

Vance Crowe [00:47:33] Oh, you did?

Kevin King [00:47:34] Yeah. For about two years. And then I, I said, I'm never doing them one again. 'cause I was involved in a child custody battle and I, I was like, this is, this is, I don't want to deal with this. 'cause in, in those circumstances, at the end of the day, my lawyer, I mean, my client didn't like me, didn't like her ex-husband, didn't like the judge, didn't like the other attorney or her husband's attorney. And it was the same true on the other side. No one, no one gets out of that, that type of situation with any sort of satisfaction or relief or ha it's just, it just ends. And then you go on and, you know, and I, that's the last one I ever handled. You know,

Vance Crowe [00:48:15] They're so messy. I mean, like, in the, they can be, they can be. Well, and, and when you add in a child and then, yeah. And then, and then on top of that, the money that goes along with the child. Right? Right. So if, if I've had friends that when the child was put in primary custody of one person, the other person that's not there is now paying a, a, a significant portion of their income towards that child. And so it's, it's a, it's a weird thing because a child becomes an income acquiring asset. Right,

Kevin King [00:48:45] Exactly. And, you know, it's, it creates bitterness, you know, and I, like you said, I've been so fortunate, you know, four children that are the end all for me and, and, and my wife. But, you know, a child going through a divorce, you know, they're the real victims. That's why the parents have to work really, really hard to make certain that the child is as well adjusted as possible under those circumstances. And it, it can happen. It, they can do it. It's just human nature that they often don't because they're bitter with their, you know, their former spouse and,

Vance Crowe [00:49:25] And it bleeds into everything. Yeah. Because it's so catastrophic on your life. It tears apart your personal finances. It tears apart. Yeah. Whatever, whatever caused the divorce. Yeah. That's, that's, that's rough. And so no more divorce law for you?

Kevin King [00:49:39] No. Yeah. Long time ago. Yeah. Yeah. No more

Vance Crowe [00:49:44] So completely changing gears. Yeah. But, so you are legal counsel for a bank, and right now the state of Missouri is in process of having medical marijuana. And so there are people that are, that are looking to invest. But if it's illegal on the federal level to have to, to make money from the sale of cannabis, what are companies going to do about where they put their money and how are banks going to address this? Because there's a lot of money to be made there, potentially

Kevin King [00:50:17] Because

Vance Crowe [00:50:17] There's a lot of business that's coming online. But at the same time, banks are not known for wanting to break the rules and being on the opposite side of the federal government.

Kevin King [00:50:25] Right. Well, you've hit it on the head Vance. I mean, it is a, it is a real conundrum right now for banks, for the Missouri Division of Finance trying to write guidelines because you've got, I think, 40 states now that have legalized marijuana, either recreationally and or for medical purposes. And you had 40 states in the union that have some form of legalization of marijuana. And you've got the federal statute still say that the cultivation distribution sale of marijuana is a federal crime

Vance Crowe [00:51:09] Schedule Schedule one. Right. Like the, the top. This is high priority enforcement.

Kevin King [00:51:14] It's, yeah. I mean, it's a crime. And so then you've got all these ancillary, but, but the Department of Justice has not ever tried to, you know, charge any of these that I'm aware of charge any of these dispensaries in Colorado, for instance, or in California, or,

Vance Crowe [00:51:30] Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. So you've got, you don't have rules set up for banks to be able to do this legally. You don't have like a, Hey, this is the path to doing it. And yet somebody is, is some banks must be involved in this. Yeah. 'cause money's moving around. But the Justice Department has not enforced those rules. I didn't realize that.

Kevin King [00:51:47] No, I mean not, I mean, the first line of enforcement would be against the dispensaries themselves or the cultivators,

Vance Crowe [00:51:54] Not the banks. Well,

Kevin King [00:51:55] I mean, it could be, it's, it's sort of bifurcated. The banks are more concerned about the regulators and how they're gonna handle it. And I would think, but you know, when, when the state has, when a state has legalized the activity that is occurring, but the Fed Feds could come in and charge you with a crime under federal law for selling a drug, you've got a real conflict there. And so I, the Department of Justice just has chosen not to do it. And I think it's, I mean, I don't know if they're ever going to you. That's, that's the real issue. And then you've got the federal regulators, the FDIC, the Federal Reserve, you know, the OCC, you know, who regulate banks, and are they gonna say that that's aiding and abetting a federal crime because you're allowing them to, you know, deposit money in your bank and so forth and so on. And are they gonna charge equipment manufacturers or selling cultivation equipment to these companies with aiding and abetting, you know, the, the it, the list goes on and on. And,

Vance Crowe [00:53:01] And what do you think, it doesn't sound like

Kevin King [00:53:03] That's

Vance Crowe [00:53:03] What's gonna happen.

Kevin King [00:53:04] It sounds implausible that they would do that, but there'd

Vance Crowe [00:53:07] Be a whole lot of people suddenly on the wrong side of the, well,

Kevin King [00:53:10] I mean,

Vance Crowe [00:53:11] Jail, there'd

Kevin King [00:53:11] Be 40 states that would file an injunction action to stop the federal government from doing that. And you'd have this huge monstrosity of a lawsuit that would, you know, either get settled or ultimately, you know, decided by a circuit court of appeal or the Supreme Court. Right now there's a, there's a law that is, you know, winding its way through Congress that would allow bank to bank marijuana related businesses without the fear of being in violation of any, you know, banking regulations or any federal criminal statutes.

Vance Crowe [00:53:54] And that's winding its way through federal,

Kevin King [00:53:57] At the federal level. Yeah. Through Congress. Yeah. Yeah. It has to be at the federal level because the

Vance Crowe [00:54:01] States doesn't matter what they say if

Kevin King [00:54:02] The federal do Right. Well, the, well, the states who've legalized it, they've already decided the issue. So the federal government in terms of, you know, allowing this to, to be a workable situation for these businesses where they're operating legally in the state of Missouri or whatever state they're operating in, they're the ones that have to fix the issue. And there's a bill pending right now. It's not pending. I think it's, I think it might be in committee.

Vance Crowe [00:54:36] Have you read it?

Kevin King [00:54:37] Yeah, I mean, it's, it's very straightforward. It just says it, I mean, in very simple terms, it says that banks, I mean, this is a really oversimplification that, you know, if you bank marijuana related businesses, it's not a federal crime. Okay. And, and, and it's not against any federal banking regulations, which would really take the heat off of everybody. 'cause we've spent at St. Louis Bank, an inordinate amount of time trying to accommodate our customers while at the same time not violating any regulations. And one thing about St. Louis Bank is we're very, very acutely aware of and compliant with federal regulations and, and

Vance Crowe [00:55:20] With, and with the

Kevin King [00:55:21] Missouri Division of Finance. I mean, it's, we

Vance Crowe [00:55:23] It's good to hear your lawyer say that. That's,

Kevin King [00:55:25] Hear that. Well, no, I mean, hear

Vance Crowe [00:55:26] That

Kevin King [00:55:26] It, I mean that's just the way it is. And it's the way it should be. You know, we want to be strictly compliant. This is such a gray area. It's, it's really frustrating from my perspective because it's a federal issue and they should fix it, you know, so,

Vance Crowe [00:55:47] And when do you think that legislation will get,

Kevin King [00:55:49] I have no idea. Vance. I mean, it's

Vance Crowe [00:55:52] What are, what are banks out in Colorado and, and Nevada doing right now? My impression was that co-ops had popped up and there were like a different form of,

Kevin King [00:56:01] There's a private that

Vance Crowe [00:56:02] Wasn't, it's not FDIC insured. Correct. So they don't have the same regulatory environment. Right.

Kevin King [00:56:08] If

Vance Crowe [00:56:08] So, those you're

Kevin King [00:56:09] Not Yeah. If you don't buy insurance from the FDIC, you're not regulated by the FDIC. Yeah. There's, there's some private, I'll also call 'em private banks in quotes that have, that have popped up that say, we will hold your money, protect your money. But it's not the, it's, they're not part of the banking system. They don't get the protection of, you know, the, the FDIC protection. And if it goes under, you know, they, you know, so it, it needs to be fixed. The thought, I mean, I saw pictures early on when Colorado legalized marijuana. You'd see people show up with satchels full of cash at the, at the State Department of Revenue to pay their taxes, you know, and that's in and of itself a dangerous situation.

Vance Crowe [00:56:52] Well, so I lived in Mendocino County, which is, are you familiar with, it's in California. So Mendocino is the place where people that think Berkeley is too conservative. They, they moved to Mendocino and I was up there working at a community public radio station, and they called this the Emerald Triangle. It was a part of three counties, lake County, Humboldt, and Mendocino, where there was huge amounts of marijuana grown. Now, I was Midwestern kid, I couldn't even have told you what a marijuana plant looked like. And then all of a sudden you're working in community public radio. It's all over the place. And they had medical licenses there. So this was, this was 10 years ago. And for pledge drive, we, you know, normally you're, you're like, yeah, you know, call us up and make a donation.

Kevin King [00:57:37] Was this an NPR R

Vance Crowe [00:57:38] Station? It was, it was a, it was a public radio station and people would drop by bags of cash, and I like nothing I'd ever seen before. Yeah. You, you would open it up and there would be just wads of $10 bills and they wreaked of marijuana. And so, you know, like I'm, I don't know, 23 or 24 years old being like, what in the world is going on?

Kevin King [00:58:02] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:58:02] But it's because their whole business was done in cash.

Kevin King [00:58:06] I mean, I'm not a user. I mean, I've, I've tried it and, and I've even inhaled

Vance Crowe [00:58:14] When I was younger.

Kevin King [00:58:16] But, you know, it has no special appeal to me one way or the other. But it's just absolutely ludicrous that it's not legalized on a federal level because it's just, I mean, it's everywhere. It's everywhere. I mean, it's almost, you know, analogous to prohibition. I mean, it's looks ridiculous, you know?

Vance Crowe [00:58:37] Well, and then that brings up an interesting question with banking, is the people that really did well right after Prohibition were the ones that were set to go to deliver product. You know, Anhe, were in St. Louis, Missouri. So Anheuser-Busch ready to go, right? As Prohibition ends, and then they get off to the races, and they're one of the few, you know, huge companies that gets born outta that. Is this the same thing happen in cannabis? Is it whoever's ready to go right when those regulations drop?

Kevin King [00:59:07] I don't think that's the case. I think, you know, what I hear is that they're, you know, big pharma is ready to sort of take over the small operations and pay 'em big money to get 'em out. Yeah. Which

Vance Crowe [00:59:23] Makes sense, right?

Kevin King [00:59:24] Yeah, makes sense. Yeah. You,

Vance Crowe [00:59:25] You're trying to grow a, a chemical and, and you want people that are

Kevin King [00:59:27] For medical use. Yeah. And so big pharma, I don't know about the, the cigarette companies. I have no idea what the deal is there, because I think, you know, me, marijuana can take, you know, I, I think they have, they have edible marijuana, you know, candies and all that. So I don't know if, if big tobacco's involved in it or not.

Vance Crowe [00:59:50] It'll be interesting because I, I think we're in a unique place in St. Louis, I've said this many times before in that we have more plant biologists per capita here than in any other place in the world. Wow. And at its core, cannabis is about can you breed a plant to, to give you the, the psychological effects that you want and the, you know, all, all of the phenotypes as they call them, that you want the smells and the terpenes and these other things. And I think that there is a huge chance that when Missouri legalizes it, you will see a, a big upswing in the number of companies that will be doing plant breeding around cannabis here.

Kevin King [01:00:32] Interesting. Well, you know, you know, you have a very strong background in that area. So you

Vance Crowe [01:00:38] In plant it's not cannabis.

Kevin King [01:00:40] Yes. I didn't mean, I didn't mean that. So you would know more than I about that, but it certainly makes sense what you said. I mean, so I'm sure that given your background with Bayer slash Monsanto, you, you probably have a, a pretty good idea of, of where that might head.

Vance Crowe [01:01:02] I think that it, it's a very interesting time to be with a company, a bank that's saying, we wanna serve our customers. We know that medical is coming in. The state has announced that they are comfortable with this. And then you, you, you look at the federal and there's regulations and what's gonna happen to me, the thing that I hope happens is that we just let the rules go without spiking the ball. Meaning just, just don't make it so only a few people Right.

Kevin King [01:01:30] Can

Vance Crowe [01:01:31] Be really, really successful. And you knock everybody else out. Just, just open it up, let and, and relax the rules. And frankly, I like the idea that it's gone state by state, because then you have all these little incubators, all these different rules, and how are we gonna do it in this state versus that state? And you can see what's the best, what's the best way to do that. And that actually brings me to a question. Our Federalist system, you know, is, is set up so that you have local municipal control, and then you have the county, and then you have the state, and then you have the federal level. And that's true on adjudicating contracts. On is, is it working the way that you think is optimal right now? Are we, are are enough rules being decided on the local level versus on the state or on the federal level?

Kevin King [01:02:19] You know, I think so, because I think to an extent, I mean, first of all, there's too many rules and regulations, federal, state, everything. And a lot of businesses say it stifles them. Okay. And to an extent it does. But at the heart of it is, you know, the rules and regs are designed to, at least in theory, to not only keep controls in place, but also to make sure that it's an even playing field to, I mean, that's, that's a very broad perspective, but that's generally what they're designed to do. Now, you know, sometimes they go way too far, you know, and, and, and it stifles business. It stifles growth. It's stifles, you know, CapEx, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's, it, it's, it can be stifling, but from a local perspective, you know, the local, you know, municipalities pretty much stay in their lane with z planning and zoning regulations and traffic and, you know, noise regulations. I mean, they'd try not to, you know, you know, in, you know, get involved in, in more, I guess, substantive issues that the state would normally get involved. But you also have to remember, if, if there's a conflict between a municipal law and a state law,

Vance Crowe [01:03:42] State's gonna win every time.

Kevin King [01:03:44] Well, state, state law controls, if there's a conflict between a federal law and a state law, state law would control,

Vance Crowe [01:03:52] You know, the, the, my experience, I mean,

Kevin King [01:03:53] Federal law would control

Vance Crowe [01:03:55] My experience with Monsanto made me think about the law a little bit differently and, and really on both sides of it. So on the one hand, I saw that activists, right? They would come out and they would say, we don't know if GMOs are safe. We should, we should regulate these more. So they'd go to the politicians, they would demand more regulation. PO policymaker says, all right, well, I want to, you know, there's people out here shouting outside of my office. I'm gonna go make laws to make it so we need more testing. So you go from maybe four years or eight years of testing to now 12 years of testing. And the problem with that is when you make it a law that if you wanna release a, a new genetically engineered crop, but you have to have 12 years of testing, each one of those years is $10 million.

Kevin King [01:04:39] Wow.

Vance Crowe [01:04:40] So you're tacking on

Kevin King [01:04:41] All

Vance Crowe [01:04:42] The way up to $120 million worth of regulatory costs, which means only the biggest players can play the game. So those activists, in many ways, a lot of people don't realize this did the work of the large corporations. Wow. 'cause you have regulatory capture. You have it now. So that only those big players.

Kevin King [01:05:00] Well, does that, does that, I guess I'll ask you the question, does that cost trickle down to the consumer then

Vance Crowe [01:05:08] Ultimately, you know, and, and I think that you, it's really difficult for people to say, well, now I've, because there's not that many genetically engineered crops that go directly into the grocery store. Yeah. So it, it's more in like the feed that goes to cattle, right. Or pigs. And ultimately you're feeling the cost of that. Right? We could be feeding pigs and chickens and, and cows for a cheaper price than what we are right now.

Kevin King [01:05:34] But it's

Vance Crowe [01:05:34] So diffuse that, that people, people don't feel like it. But at it, at its core, it really holds back our economy.

Kevin King [01:05:41] Hmm. Because

Vance Crowe [01:05:42] You have this large system that if it didn't have these controls on it, if you had more competitors in the market, it would make these large companies have to go faster. Right? Now they have six competitors, four competitors, when

Kevin King [01:05:52] They, well, has that argument been made to the, to the regulators?

Vance Crowe [01:05:56] Sure. But, but herein you have the cross purposes, right? You actually have the activists and the large corporations, they end up getting on the same side on this. 'cause the large corporations get regulatory capture. They love it. But

Kevin King [01:06:07] I mean, I I was gonna say, so they actually, the large corporations actually support the longer assessing periods.

Vance Crowe [01:06:13] Well, because of course, I mean, you know, I think they, they, they, I think that they would say, you, you might have their scientists and some of their front facing people saying, Hey, we wanna have reasonable regulation. Let's do this. Right. But they want just enough to knock out their competitors. And not a dollar more isn't that, but that's their business interest, right?

Kevin King [01:06:31] Isn't that interesting?

Vance Crowe [01:06:32] Yeah.

Kevin King [01:06:33] So you've got the large corporations, philosophical, not philosophically, but financially aligning themselves with the activists.

Vance Crowe [01:06:42] Absolutely. And so this was the craziest thing that you would see from the activist world, is you, it was like, you don't even realize you are helping the very people you think you're fighting against. In fact, if you were the large corporations, they didn't do this as far as I can tell, right? This. But if you were gonna create a conspiracy theory, you would say the best thing that ever happened to Monsanto was the march against Monsanto. Wow.

Kevin King [01:07:04] All

Vance Crowe [01:07:04] The way up until, yeah.

Kevin King [01:07:06] A

Vance Crowe [01:07:06] $2 billion lawsuit on Roundup. So that worked out real well until, until eventually you have a situation where the public is so afraid of these giant corporations that a jury awards a $2 billion settlement for, for, for a person that sued, sued them for having Roundup cause cancer. I

Kevin King [01:07:25] Don't, I haven't followed that. I mean, obviously heard the, the verdict or the judgment or whatever, but has that been resolved yet?

Vance Crowe [01:07:32] No. And it'll be a while. I mean, some of those have been reduced. So the first one was originally a, the first court that ruled against Monsanto said it was $78 million. And the judge came in and said, you can't make punitive damages. So there's, there's the difference between compensatory and punitive, right? Compensatory, you know this. Yeah. But the compensatory saying this wrong happened and we need to cover this person's medical bills. So you're responsible for that, and then you have punitive damages, right? Like, Hey, we're gonna punish you to make sure you don't do this again. Right.

Kevin King [01:08:01] And

Vance Crowe [01:08:01] They, on the first one 78 million people thought, wow, that's a huge number that

Kevin King [01:08:06] Yeah, that's, and then a few

Vance Crowe [01:08:07] Weeks later, there was a $2 billion punitive case. And so that this is all gonna,

Kevin King [01:08:13] So is the $2 billion, I mean, I'm sure Monsanto appealed that. I don't, I just don't know where it stands. I haven't followed it.

Vance Crowe [01:08:20] Yeah. Well, and, and they, they're in the process of appealing, and then they have more cases going, there's 13,000 cases or something like, Lord, that, so

Kevin King [01:08:27] I didn't realize

Vance Crowe [01:08:27] That. So the, the, and they're all over the United States. There's some in California, there's some in, in St. Louis over in Madison County over in Edward,

Kevin King [01:08:37] A lot of lawyers making money,

Vance Crowe [01:08:38] A lot of lawyers making money. And, and the, the, the saddest part about the whole thing is people don't realize that the fight is now not over the science. Because when you get into those cases, you have a jury that's there, right.

Kevin King [01:08:54] 12

Vance Crowe [01:08:55] People that they, they're anywhere on that bell distribution of their understanding of the scientific method and how this works. And so they're, they are sitting there and the side that says, Roundup causes cancer, has their expert and the side that says it doesn't cause cancer. These people don't know. They're not gonna go read the studies. They just have to listen to two different versions of the truth. And then they decide that truth is right, and that one isn't. Which really comes down to a good question for you, which is juries believe in stories, but not necessarily scientific evidence. How should we feel about a law system that's set up like that,

Kevin King [01:09:33] You know, it's still the best and you've got a jury of your peers is the, you know, is the, the rule. And that's why jury selection in cases like that is so critically important. And the, the parties get a chance to, you know, voir dire the the pool of jurors, and I'm sure you're aware of this. And then they, you know, they have many times they'll bring in, you know, in these cases like this, they'll bring in psychologists to sit at the table to listen and look at, you know, when

Vance Crowe [01:10:13] $2 billion are at the table, they're gonna bring lots and lots of people

Kevin King [01:10:17] Yeah. Perspective. They look at perspective jurors, mannerisms, you know, their body language. I mean, it's crazy. But that's why you try to get the best jury you can and just, and then put on the best case you can. But, you know, it's, it's not, our system isn't set up that okay, they're gonna bring in a pool of scientists to be on the jury. You know, that's just not set up that way. And,

Vance Crowe [01:10:43] And frankly, that would be dangerous too, right? Yeah. If you have a bunch of people that they were trained in certain schools and they think a certain way, you run a real risk of having some sort of indoctrination on, on that side just as much as you do.

Kevin King [01:10:56] Right. And you, you know, you've got, you know, little guy who's just a common citizen who got cancer, and, you know, they don't want to have to convince a bunch of scientists. They want a, a jury of their peers, which is other people in the community, you know? So I still very much believe in the system. It doesn't always work, you know, but it, it's a, it's the best system that, that we've come up with in the, in the world, in my opinion. And, you know, and

Vance Crowe [01:11:32] There's a lot of young people coming through. I I always see you being introduced to young people. People bring their kids by when somebody says, Hey, I'm thinking about becoming an attorney.

Kevin King [01:11:41] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:11:42] What's your response though?

Kevin King [01:11:44] I usually tell 'em, I think you should think twice about it because Whoa. Yeah. Because there are so many lawyers now Vance, that are coming outta law schools. And if you happen to, you know, do well enough in law school, get hired by a big firm right outta school, you're gonna make a lot of money right away, but you're also gonna have no life. Okay? And they're gonna work you to the bone and you may or may not make partner in 10 years. And the alternative is, you come out and you wanna work for the prosecuting attorney's office, or you wanna work for the public defender's office, or you want to go into, you know, some sort of public sector, which is, you know, fine too if, if there's a job, but there's just not a, you know, there we're oversaturated, oversaturated with attorneys already, and

Vance Crowe [01:12:47] It becomes a commodity that the margins go down to zero.

Kevin King [01:12:50] Exactly. Right. And it's just hard. I mean, I was fortunate that, you know, I did get hired by a big law firm outta school. I was there for a year, didn't like it. But then I, you know, I, I was getting a lot of calls from friends and context for, you know, traffic cases and divorce cases and collection cases and, you know, minor stuff that the firm that I was with really wouldn't even let me handle, which I totally understand, because they didn't take cases like that. So then I went with a small firm and, and cut a deal with the firm where they paid me a, a lesser salary, but I got 50% of what I brought in and I made,

Vance Crowe [01:13:32] Wow, now you got a piece of the pie. Now you're now your relationships and people trusting you and thinking that you are the attorney for them benefits you as well. That's good.

Kevin King [01:13:40] Yeah, definitely. So I, that's

Vance Crowe [01:13:42] A hell of an opportunity.

Kevin King [01:13:42] Well, you know, and I, you know, it was a deal. I cut with them and it worked out great for both of us. And I, I actually made more in my first year, or really in my second year outta law school than I would've made at the big firm. And then I just continued to grow that. And, but it's hard work. I mean, and that's what I tell young lawyers or young people that are thinking about going to law school. It's, you know, be prepared to, you know, work long hours, go out at night, join volunteer boards, be on, you know, do things that where you're gonna meet people and make contacts and, you know, and it's just a lot of hours and it's a lot of hard work. And I'm not saying that, you know, I mean, I'm, I, I love to work hard, so it's not a problem for me, but, you know, it's a sacrifice that your family makes when you do that. The one thing I did that I always, I that I never missed were I had, I had four children, they all played sports and I never missed their games ever.

Vance Crowe [01:14:46] Really? You made it to every single game of your

Kevin King [01:14:48] Kids. Every, well, when they played in college, two of my, my daughters played in college and they overlapped two years at Auburn. And so,

Vance Crowe [01:14:58] Hey.

Kevin King [01:14:58] Yeah, yeah,

Vance Crowe [01:14:59] Yeah, yeah.

Kevin King [01:15:00] So six years and an average of about, say, 25 games, a soccer games a year. So there's 150 soccer games. And I don't think my wife and I missed more than 10 games in those six years, either at home or wherever they played.

Vance Crowe [01:15:17] But you were in a position to be able to do that because

Kevin King [01:15:18] Yeah, yeah. You

Vance Crowe [01:15:19] Put the work in for the first Right. 15, 20 years. Right.

Kevin King [01:15:22] And I didn't have set schedule. It was, you know, like I told, you know, I'd tell Julie, well, I can work any 60 or 70 hours of the week I want, it's just, you know, when I wanna work 'em. But, but I, even when I was gone, I was staying in contact with clients, thank God for cell phones and, you know, but I always stay in contact with my clients if they need me. I call 'em back when I'm gone. I still do that. But

Vance Crowe [01:15:47] Those hours that you're talking about that a new person has to put in, one of the thoughts that I have that's kind of a comparison to banking is that when discovery used to happen, you used to have to, somebody would get, so discovery is you and I are in a lawsuit, you've got information that I believe I should have access to in order to be able to adjudicate this case. So you send me over files and files and files. Could be fi could fill this entire studio.

Kevin King [01:16:12] Well, you a you, you send me

Vance Crowe [01:16:13] A request for request, request

Kevin King [01:16:14] For production of documents or interrogatories, and then we have to respond to it.

Vance Crowe [01:16:18] And then for the next three months, we get to go through all those. So we're gonna hire some young lawyers

Kevin King [01:16:26] Maybe,

Vance Crowe [01:16:27] And then well okay. To go through these things. And, and there was a whole bunch of work done in the legal system just by somebody reading contracts, just going through and, and highlighting every piece of paper that you have. But now there are computers and you can automate a whole bunch of that, which the beginning entry work, just like at a bank, there used to be a lot of tellers, and you would teach them, this is how money works, this is how to keep your drawer, you know, up to date. But when you get rid of that through automation, what happens to the system of teaching people if they, if the ground floor is now filled by automation?

Kevin King [01:17:05] Well, that's a good question. I mean, in the practice of law, you come outta law school, you have no idea how to practice law. None whatsoever.

Vance Crowe [01:17:14] None at all.

Kevin King [01:17:14] None, none whatsoever.

Vance Crowe [01:17:16] What did you learn in school then?

Kevin King [01:17:17] You learned the fundamentals. I mean, your first year you take constitutional law, contracts, property evidence, and civil procedure. Okay. And torts. And those are fundamental areas of law. You take that for a full year, then you get into more elective courses like tax corporations, insurance and stuff. But, you know, it's like when you, when you go to the four years of medical school, you know, your last two years in medical school, you're doing clinicals, you're working on patients, then you go to a residency program and you're doing more clinicals and you're doing more practice. You know, you don't have that in law. You know, you come outta law school, you've never written a contract, you've never reviewed an asset purchase agreement, you've never tried a case. So

Vance Crowe [01:18:09] You,

Kevin King [01:18:10] You have to learn. And that's why you just, you know, and you learn by being mentored and you learn by doing and making mistakes and having to correct them. And it's pretty arduous. I mean, it takes, you know, several years before you really feel comfortable. And I, you know, I still, you know, you know, come across stuff that I have to teach myself, you know, and, and, but it's easier now because I know where to go and what to do. It's just a little bit easier, but it never stops. You never stop learning, you know? But

Vance Crowe [01:18:45] So if you take away that base layer, when, when, where do they get the experience then?

Kevin King [01:18:49] Well, I don't, I don't know that that base layer ever goes away with the practic of law because you, you know, you're thrown into something on, you know, as a young lawyer, you know, there's no, there's no amount of automation that can, that can make up for knowing your case and knowing your client and knowing the documents you have to spend time with them. You or you're not gonna know. You're just gonna be wailing away out there. You're

Vance Crowe [01:19:17] Not gonna be able to have a computer that says, no, I went through all these files and this is the summary. No. And this is what you need to know.

Kevin King [01:19:22] No, you're not, that's not, I, at least I, I don't think so. No,

Vance Crowe [01:19:27] Because there's a lot of talk about, you know, automation coming for some of these high priced things, like if you're paying a first year, a student one year outta college, but they're, you're paying 'em $120,000 a year to go through contracts, it's real valuable for somebody to figure out how to automate that.

Kevin King [01:19:45] Right.

Vance Crowe [01:19:45] A lot more valuable than figuring out how to, how to automate or make a robot outta the McDonald's worker. Right. This is, that's real money. Right?

Kevin King [01:19:52] Right. I i, I don't know. I mean, maybe I'm just old school. I don't know that I would trust a computer to go through a document for me.

Vance Crowe [01:20:00] Interesting.

Kevin King [01:20:00] Unless, you know, I had seen it done and experienced the, the, the result a number of times.

Vance Crowe [01:20:07] Okay, well that's, it's, it'll definitely be something that'll pan out. I mean, I think that one of the over, one of the reasons for oversaturation, at least in the beginning, one of the reasons it's tougher for kids to get Oh

Kevin King [01:20:18] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:20:18] Jobs is 'cause there are computers that are definitely, there's certainly people out there selling services Yeah. Claim

Kevin King [01:20:23] To be doing the

Vance Crowe [01:20:24] Automation of

Kevin King [01:20:25] That. Oh yeah, yeah. Information of that. Yeah. It'd be interesting to see what happens. I,

Vance Crowe [01:20:27] I

Kevin King [01:20:27] Did not know that. I wasn't aware of that.

Vance Crowe [01:20:30] Well, Kevin, I know that I have kept you a long time into your morning. I really appreciate you stopping by. Thank you so much. Not just for coming by, but for all the work you've done for me and my family. You've been somebody that I've trusted on a very deep level, and you've been a wonderful, wonderful friend. So thank you for coming by. You

Kevin King [01:20:47] Bet, man. It's been a pleasure.

Vance Crowe [01:20:49] Great to have you. Well, that's gonna do it for this week's episode of the podcast. Thank you so much to Kevin King for stopping by on such late notice. To close out, I wanna do two things. First, I'm gonna tell you about a couple of people that I think are worth following on Twitter. And the other thing I wanna do is talk about the bonus episodes of the podcast. So first I want to throw a big thank you out to a man that has become a close friend in the last year. His name is Jared McDaniel and he is a cattle rancher out on the plains or the desert of Oklahoma. And he has been incredibly supportive. He's given me a lot of great feedback, critical sometimes giving me advice on what I can do better. And outside of that, he, I think he's just a great example for the value that you can derive out of Twitter if you put your real heart and soul into it. So if you go to Jared McDaniel's Twitter feed, and that's Jared, J-E-R-O-D, McDaniel, M-C-D-A-N-I-E-L. I'll put it in the show notes. If you go to his Twitter, you see that this is a guy talking about markets. He's talking about his political philosophies, and he's asking questions. And I have seen it many times before where he comes out with a strong opinion. But if you come back with him and have something else to say, he, he responds and he wants to have a good challenging conversation. Another person that I think is worth checking out is a man named Brian Scott, and he goes by the farmer's life on Twitter.

Vance Crowe [01:22:27] Brian's an interesting character. He is a corn farmer from Indiana, and he not only does the regular seed corn and soybeans, but he also grows popcorn. And he has for years put up videos on YouTube and Facebook describing what it's like to be a farmer. And some of his most famous videos are the, the ones where he's allowing his son to turn over. I think he was a planter to turn around, a planter out in the fields and to keep driving it. I think his son must have been five or six years old. He also has some really interesting drone footage. And, and one in particular is to show the amount of glyphosate poured over an acre large field. It's, it's kind of dynamic and it's got really cool, cool music. Anyway, both of these people, Jared McDaniel and Brian Scott, I think are worth following on Twitter, and I hope you'll check them out and en engage with them and let 'em know that you heard about them on the Vance Crow podcast. The other thing I wanted to do was throw a little bit of information out about the bonus episodes. So last week I put out a bonus episode describing why it is that I care so much about the discipline of communication. And I told the story of when I saw how somebody that can communicate more effectively than you can, can stand up on a box and sell snake oil. This received so much positive feedback that I'm definitely going to be doing these in the future. I've, I've spent a little bit of time since the bonus episode trying to put together another one, and I'm looking forward to it.

Vance Crowe [01:24:05] So I'll continue to publish these videos here on and, and podcasts here on Wednesdays, and then put out a bonus episode some other time. You'll also notice if you flip over to YouTube that there is no YouTube video. This week I have been really struggling. I got a new camera and I've struggled to make it work consistently. And so this time I thought Kevin's interview was so good that I didn't want to have kind of bad video up there. It just didn't feel right. So I'm gonna skip putting the video up on YouTube this week. We'll be back next week. Hopefully. I will have learned more. Anyway, this is just the trials and tribulations of putting together a podcast. I'm learning so much and I appreciate that you are doing, you're so patient with me. You've been patient through learning how to do audio better, learning how to get better guests, ask better questions. So thank you so much. If you like what I'm doing, I hope you'll think to give it a review. Those five star reviews on iTunes and, and actually sitting down and writing out what you like and why the podcast makes a difference to you, makes a really big difference and sharing it on social media is what has helped this spread out so much. Just this morning, the podcast surpassed 4,000 downloads, so this is a pretty big milestone for me. I am, I'm quite excited about it. So I'm gonna sign off for now and we'll see you either at the bonus episode or next Wednesday.