Funeral Director Explains What Really Happens Between Death and Burial

Kacie Derby [00:00:00] People are like, oh, I'm gonna be cremated. I'm good. You're like, whoa. So with a traditional casket burial, you still got choices to make. But you've got a, a basic framework because that casket has to go into a cemetery, you know, in the ground or in a mausoleum. There is a plan. Obviously there's gonna be a service if, you know, if you're in a casket with the cremation, you can take it from anywhere. So if people think that they've made all their decisions, then we're like, okay, no, you actually have way more decisions to make. Now that you've chosen cremation, I am Caleb Zi, a precision ag specialist living in Aurora, South Dakota.

Vance Crowe [00:00:32] And you are listening to the Vance Crow podcast. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Today we have the fifth and final installment of the Memento Maury series with funeral director Casey Derby. Casey and I sat down not to talk about the morbid ness of death, but to really pull apart. Why is it that we have this ceremony known as a funeral? What is the purpose of it? And how can people best prepare not only for the funerals that they have to put on, but maybe even their own funerals? This is a fascinating conversation about a subject that normally is really only understood during duress. So while this is a dark subject and we're playing it on Halloween, I hope you take it as a part of the whole series where we were really trying to explore the idea that if you remember, you will die and you fully embrace this idea. Does it help you live better in some important way? We've been doing this and at the same time we are doing Legacy Interviews where I sit down to record the family stories of loved ones, where they tell us about the five areas of their life, their childhood career, marriage, parenting, and the legacy that they hope to leave behind in these five areas. We discover things about your loved ones and we put them down in a record so that they can be stored and passed down to future generations. If you are interested in having me sit down to record one of these interviews with your loved one, go to Legacy Interviews dot com.

Vance Crowe [00:02:03] And now, without further ado, let's go to the interview with Casey Derby. Casey Derby. Welcome. Thank

Kacie Derby [00:02:10] You to the pilot

Vance Crowe [00:02:11] Guest. How old were you when you saw your first dead body? Ooh,

Kacie Derby [00:02:19] 13 maybe that I remember.

Vance Crowe [00:02:21] Was it at a funeral?

Kacie Derby [00:02:22] I been younger, yes.

Vance Crowe [00:02:23] So what was the experience like?

Kacie Derby [00:02:26] I don't remember. I went up to the casket. I do remember it was my grandpa. I remember seeing him and then just sitting in the room crying actually is what I remember.

Vance Crowe [00:02:37] Yeah, my first memory is my aunt, my dad's sister dying. And I had just never seen that before. And if, if, if other times I had experienced it, I just didn't remember it. But that was my earliest. What do you now, as a funeral director, you look back on that experience, what do you think about it?

Kacie Derby [00:02:57] It was, I, I was, like I said, I was young, but looking back now, the room was so full. My grandpa died young, so there were so many people there, you know, to support my parents and my aunts and uncles and everybody. Things that I talk about now, like how good it is to, to see the body and to have that visitation time so that your loved ones left behind, you know, have that support and everything. And at the time for me it was good 'cause I saw a lot of people, a lot of people came up and hugged me and, but I understood, you know, the best I could at the time and just kind of sat there and watched it all happen

Vance Crowe [00:03:28] When somebody gets to a funeral, right? They had heard that somebody died and then they see this body that's like well put together in a casket. What happens between the moment somebody passes away till they're viewed in a casket?

Kacie Derby [00:03:46] So they're picked up by a funeral director, funeral home and brought into the care of the funeral home. And then from there, depending on the services they're having, there is sanitizing of the body. They're dressed casketed, cosmetics and hair done embalmed. If they're having a public service and then put into the casket and taken to the services. And then if they're being cremated, there are lots of different other options. 'cause you don't always have to be embalmed if you're being cremated before your services, depending on the funeral home that you use, you may not need, you know, they may not do cosmetics or do hair or anything like that.

Vance Crowe [00:04:20] So let's go deeper into this 'cause this is like behind the curtain. What, when you say the body gets sanitized and then later embalmed like what are these processes?

Kacie Derby [00:04:30] So that, I don't work on the care team so I know small amounts of that. But the embalming is, it's, I mean it's, it looks like a medical area in there. When you go in there, there's lots of tubes and everything to put into the body. And then I, and I don't wanna speak to something that I don't know about 'cause I don't work on the care team, but they basically, they put in embalming fluid into the body to preserve the body for a public visitation. So it's safe for the public to, to be around and view at the services.

Vance Crowe [00:04:57] And when, when all this is going on, how much time actually elapses between somebody dying and then viewing

Kacie Derby [00:05:05] It. It can happen really fast, you know, 'cause you can do a visitation a couple of days later if you need to. But also a lot of times we have people who families are coming in from out of town or especially during COVID when we had to wait. It can be, it can be several months if it needs to be. That's not ideal. But it can be.

Vance Crowe [00:05:20] It can be. So people were waiting during COVID for

Kacie Derby [00:05:24] Yes, to have services. I mean for a while people couldn't even, you know, leave their homes. We weren't even letting people come into the building 'cause they weren't allowed to, to make arrangements, which is really sad. So those families have missed out on a big piece. And so the ones who wanted to make sure that they still get that piece, that time with their loved one and that time to have that ceremony and that visitation, we held onto their loved ones for a long time until they could do those services.

Vance Crowe [00:05:49] How were you guys even prepared to do that?

Kacie Derby [00:05:52] We were not, we have the ability to store many deceased people if needed. And then there was also a task force that was started in St. Louis that we were a part of. If it got to the point that it did in some other states where, where they needed like excess facilities and things like that to hold people. And we never got to that here. Thank God.

Vance Crowe [00:06:13] So your funeral director, why? Why is there a funeral director? What does a funeral director do?

Kacie Derby [00:06:21] So legally a funeral director is the person in charge of a deceased person. So you have a license to do that. So you have to have a license to take care of that and carry that out. So you meet with the family and you make the arrangements, which is sort of just planning a big event and then caring for this family through it all. And then carrying out each piece of that event. But then you also get the contract written, you file with the state for the death certificates, if it's a cremation, there's all kinds of other paperwork and steps you have to go through to make sure that it's, you know, legal for you to do this and everything. So lots of paperwork and lots of care for the family. And then planning the actual events that they are doing, whether it be a celebration of life or a memorial service or a church service, whatever that looks like.

Vance Crowe [00:07:03] It's all so like vague to me. Like if, if I were to, and I don't know how to have this conversation without being like morbid, but don't worry about

Kacie Derby [00:07:11] That. I

Vance Crowe [00:07:11] Don't have to worry. Okay. So, so I come to my parents' house, I find out, you know, my, my mother has passed away. What, what do I do next? Do I call 9 1 1?

Kacie Derby [00:07:24] Yes. People ask that a lot. And unless someone is on hospice, if they're on hospice, the hospice workers are qualified to take care of that and then they can call us. But unless there's a hospice worker there, you always would need to call 9 1 1 because we are licensed to pick someone up and take them into our care. But we cannot presume that someone is dead. That has to be done by the paramedics

Vance Crowe [00:07:43] Because somebody else declares yes,

Kacie Derby [00:07:44] This

Vance Crowe [00:07:45] Person is no longer living. Yes. And that seems like an obvious question, right? Is somebody a lot

Kacie Derby [00:07:51] It's, we get it a lot though. People ask that a lot, especially when they have like a loved one going on hospice and they're trying to be prepared. They're like, do we just call you? And we're like, no, no, no, you go ahead and call 9 1 1 first and then unless they're on hospice of course.

Vance Crowe [00:08:02] And then like what is the role? I remember when I was a kid, people would run for the county coroner or something. Like what in the world is a coroner?

Kacie Derby [00:08:12] So we work with the like coroner's office, but I don't, that is not my area of expertise.

Vance Crowe [00:08:20] But somebody then declares that their passed

Kacie Derby [00:08:22] Yeah, the medical, there's a med medical examiner in the county that has to, that does medical, you know, if a autopsy is required, they would do the autopsies. And sometimes it's required based on the nature of the death. Sometimes the family requests it. So in that case then they would go to the medical examiner first and then we would get them after that.

Vance Crowe [00:08:39] And then you become legally responsible for the, for the body. Yes.

Kacie Derby [00:08:44] Until they're placed in a, their final resting place, the cemetery maiya and whatever that may be.

Vance Crowe [00:08:49] And what does that mean to be legally responsible for a, are they a, are they a special piece of property? Are they a person?

Kacie Derby [00:08:56] They're just, the funeral director has to be there. Like at, we have a cemetery as well. So someone obviously the grounds crew, the people who work in the cemetery, they're capable of placing a casket in the ground. But a funeral, a licensed funeral director has to be there to sort of just oversee it all.

Vance Crowe [00:09:12] And like why did this come about? Like what, what, why do you think?

Kacie Derby [00:09:16] I don't know actually, I don't know. It's just, it's another professional license. Just like, you know, lots of positions, you know, insurance licenses and hairdresser licenses and it's just another license that you can can get and no one else can do it. You can't like do it, do it yourself funeral with your loved one. A funeral director has to be in charge and it's got a lot to do with the paperwork that gets filed through the state for the death certificates and, and making sure everything is done legally. Because a lot like a cremation, you can't undo a cremation so you need to make sure the person who is in charge of that is licensed to do so and is following all the rules and the necessary paperwork and things like that that need to be done.

Vance Crowe [00:09:54] And so it's, when you think about death, right? Like my only experience of it is like incredibly fleeting because I only have known a few people that have died that have been close enough to go to the funeral that have few times I've ever been close enough to be a part of the funeral. Things are happening so fast. I mean it almost happens faster. It's like the speed of your wedding, right? Where you're in the wedding and then you blink and it's over and you can't believe it's done. But like it, your field seems like one of those things that kind of app operates and appears and then disappears and goes away. Nobody

Kacie Derby [00:10:29] Wants to think about it. So that's why we try to talk to families ahead of time, do a lot of education about planning ahead. 'cause then you can save your family some of that time where they, because if you don't plan ahead, like you said, it comes and goes, it's like planning a wedding, but you do it all usually within about three days. So usually you take a year to plan a wedding. We're doing all of those steps. You know, you're still booking a venue sometimes like entertainment if there's a singer or a, a vocalist or something like that and you're booking venues, ordering food, you know, everything you would do for a wedding. But you're trying to do it all in just a couple days. And as the family, if you're also trying to plan that funeral at the same time, if no roadmap has been laid out for you, that's really hard on them. 'cause they're focused on the logistics so they don't get to really take it all in. And it takes a while after that for them to kind of realize and kind of take in what's, what's happened to them over the past couple weeks or months.

Vance Crowe [00:11:17] Yeah, the experience of somebody has gotta be, particularly if it was unexpected. Like yes,

Kacie Derby [00:11:22] I,

Vance Crowe [00:11:23] I I'm dealing with the fact that this happened and now I have to answer all these questions and spend this money and make arrangements and accommodate people. So like,

Kacie Derby [00:11:33] And it's happening so fast while you're kind of in a fog of grief, usually people are sleep deprived. You're, it's not a good time to make any decision. And then we're like, Hey, we got 150 questions for you. So getting a lot of that taken care of ahead of time is, is a huge benefit to the family because yes, it's a lot to do when you're not in the state of mind to be be making decisions like that.

Vance Crowe [00:11:55] But I would imagine getting people to start having a conversation about their funeral is, is one that makes them face the

Kacie Derby [00:12:04] Mortality,

Vance Crowe [00:12:05] Right?

Kacie Derby [00:12:05] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:12:06] So what do you know about watching people face their mortality?

Kacie Derby [00:12:10] They, some people are okay about it, like having that conversation. A lot of people are, we have a lot of people that plan ahead. But yes, some people, it's usually a lighter conversation. You know, you can kind of say what you want, you're, you're just planning your last party that you won't be there for. But, but some people get emotional about it. A lot of people wanna talk to their children, their adult children. They wanna know what they would want and what they're gonna need at the time. And if the children are willing to have those conversations with them, great. But a lot of times that's where a stall happens. 'cause they're like, oh no, they don't wanna talk about that. They don't wanna think about it. They don't wanna think about the fact that, you know, their parents will die someday. We're all gonna die.

Vance Crowe [00:12:45] It's the children that have the, the challenge. Sometimes

Kacie Derby [00:12:47] It's, you know, it's different every time, but a lot of times we'll have parents who were like, well I wanna talk to my kids. And they ask 'em what they want and they will not engage in that conversation 'cause it's scary. So we try to do a lot of education out in the community about planning ahead funerals what it entails and let people know, you know, just 'cause you talk about your funeral, you're not gonna die.

Vance Crowe [00:13:04] Oh, that's interesting. I mean, I would imagine there's like some amount of, if not superstition, just like the, I mean the, the ringing in your ears of like, yes, should I be doing this? Like the

Kacie Derby [00:13:15] I think they're giving themselves like jinxing themselves or something.

Vance Crowe [00:13:18] Yeah. Right. And so when people have this discussion, what is the, it's not like a bride that's sitting there being like, no, I'm gonna have these people sitting with these people. Is it a stressful experience?

Kacie Derby [00:13:31] No. No. I mean not, it doesn't have to be, some people come in stressed 'cause especially, you know, if the last time they were in the funeral home, it was for a lot of times the meetings are at the funeral home. So at the last time they were there it was for a service. Sometimes that's a little bit of a stressful experience. But usually you can make the decisions ahead of time, calmer with a more clear head and it, it doesn't have to be hard. So just sort of talking about what your family's experiences with funerals, because what's gonna be best for you is what, you know, like if no one in your family has ever been cremated and you're like, I wanna be cremated, I'm gonna wanna have a conversation with you about that. 'cause that's probably not what's best for your family. If they've always gotten to see their loved ones at their, at their service, it's probably not gonna be good for just an earn to be there this time.

Vance Crowe [00:14:09] Well, that brings up a, a question that I think is really nebulous. Wh why do we have funerals? Like what, what is the purpose of this for human beings?

Kacie Derby [00:14:21] Funerals are for the living. They're for the people that are left behind to help them to, as a funeral home, we want to help the family begin healing. So we kind of guide them through a process. They're gonna hear about the death, they're gonna share that news with others and other people are gonna say, when are the services? So that always happens. And then from there it's kind of up to us to how our family goes through this, this process to help them come out on the other side of their grief. Basically we wanna set them off on a good journey with their grief because some people will say they don't want want any services and if you don't have services, your family doesn't have that time. That time where they kind of have an emotional support team built when people come to visit them, when they tell the story about your death and get to have grief reactions that are appropriate with that at a time and place that they can control. Otherwise, these things are happening all over town, you know, for months and everybody wants to, wants to know what happened and wants to help. But you never feel the feelings that you're supposed to feel 'cause you, you know, people wanna get through it real fast so they can be happy again. So they don't have to deal with it, but you're gonna deal with it eventually one way or another. And that's why we have such a huge need for grief counselors that we didn't use to have. So like you can kind of walk through the dark jungle, like straight through the scary dark jungle and come out on the other side faster and better for it. Or you can try to go around it and you're gonna get lost and you're gonna get hurt and it's gonna be worse in the long run.

Vance Crowe [00:15:41] It seems like every culture ha like of course every culture has to deal with this, right? Yes. And and the idea that you could be like, ah, we're just not, I don't, I don't want any, I don't want any celebration. I don't want, so like I'm, I know a lot of people in the ag community, a lot of the ag community does Legacy Interviews and they're very humble people. And I could imagine in your humility you would say, well I don't want people to be crying over me. I don't want there to be a big deal. In fact, one of the questions I ask is, how do you want people to celebrate your life? Okay.

Kacie Derby [00:16:11] And

Vance Crowe [00:16:11] Most people say e one of two things. They either say, oh, I don't want a big deal. Or they say I want people to be happy, I want people to get together to tell stories. But I'd never really thought about the humble answer being one that could, could end up causing more pain down the line of like the, oh, I don't want a big deal made. Because you're right, funerals are for the living. That's like a, an aha moment for me.

Kacie Derby [00:16:36] Yes, yes. Your eventually your, your family's the one that's gonna hurt in the long run. So,

Vance Crowe [00:16:40] And you said there's been an increase in grief counselors. Is this something you've observed?

Kacie Derby [00:16:45] Just like no, over like a hundred years ago everyone had the same kind of funeral. So they had visitations in their homes and then you had a local cabinet maker make you a casket and then everyone went to a church service. Everyone went to the visitation or sorry to the cemetery. So families were very involved in the death process. Like they helped, you know, prepare their loved ones and certain cultures still have rituals that they perform with their loved ones and stuff. But families were very involved and they, they came out on it, you know, better on the other side. Well now we're, and you said cultural, we're really bad in America about, we think that the only feeling we're supposed to feel is happy. So we wanna get past anything else that's not happy so that we can get back to there. But feelings are supposed to be felt. So you need to feel all these, these feelings of sadness and grief and anger and resentment even like, even if they're not all positive feelings to come out on the other side of your grief. So I got distracted that,

Vance Crowe [00:17:36] I mean, that's a perfect answer. You know, I, I attended a funeral, so I lived in Kenya for a while and I attended a funeral one time that I attended several, but the first one was the most striking because I really didn't know the language and I did not understand the culture at all. So I get there and the men are in one area and the women are in another. And I'm a little bit frustrated at this point 'cause we had to walk like miles to get there and they start giving me this tea and so I am drinking it and I become so caffeinated that like, I'm like sitting there being like sitting really like, what do we do here? And my only experience of a funeral, or at least like you know, the Irish Catholic group that I grew up in is afterwards you sit there and like tell funny stories about the person. So I'm thinking like, why aren't you guys talking about the dead person, right? Like this is the way that we do this. And so I start asking questions about the person that had passed away and they kept looking at me like I was totally insane, but I kept thinking the only way I'm gonna be able to get out of here to go to the bathroom and like calm down from all this caffeine is if I like get this conversation going.

Kacie Derby [00:18:40] But

Vance Crowe [00:18:40] I like the, the striking thing for me of that experience was that people, I don't know what they're supposed to talk about, but I know they're supposed to be together. And that's what they were doing was they were being together and they were like talking and, and like working through things. And it feels like in our modern culture, I don't go to very many funerals. So it makes me wonder if like there's like a part of culture that I'm missing out on or the, that the, the world like has changed in some way.

Kacie Derby [00:19:12] It looks, it looks different, you know, funerals look different. Like I said, they all used to look the same, but all cultures are different. And even in America they do lots of different kind of services but like other important things in our lives like baptisms and weddings and when words aren't enough you use ceremony. And so whatever the ceremony looks like, having some sort of ceremony is gonna help the family.

Vance Crowe [00:19:34] That's rather profound when words aren't enough. There's ceremony

Kacie Derby [00:19:37] That I took that Dr. Allen Wolf felt that's his line. So I will give him credit.

Vance Crowe [00:19:41] Tell me more about that. Tell me about like where, how does ceremony fill in for words?

Kacie Derby [00:19:46] So there's just no way to express, you know, the love that you had for a person or the void that that is missing in your life now that they're gone. And so when we don't know what to do, like with any other important things in our lives, we have ceremonies. So whatever that, you know, that can look like sitting around and drinking tea that can look like telling funny stories that can look like a very formal service or specific music that we listen to. But just some, some sort of of ceremony to honor the loved one because words aren't gonna do it justice.

Vance Crowe [00:20:15] And you've been in the field for 11 years you said? Yes. And so have you seen like rather unorthodox ceremonies?

Kacie Derby [00:20:23] Yes. Yes. We've seen 'cause like a, like you know, people used to do everything in church and now they do 'em at restaurants and in parks and we've had, you know, like little out out, we have an area in the cemetery where you do events, so like a little kind of outdoor almost dinner party type thing. We had a, I have a girl who works for us and her dad wanted to be put in the, his cremator remains put in a a firework. So they put 'em in a firework and they had a firework show on their family farm. Wow. So that was their ceremony. So lots and lots of different and with cremation, like the possibilities are endless with what you can do if you're choosing to be cremated.

Vance Crowe [00:20:58] If you get cremated then someone gets your ashes. Are you allowed to put those ashes anywhere?

Kacie Derby [00:21:06] No. Well they're, I mean if you're scattering, no there are like regulations and each county has their own regulations on what those are. But some people, you know, they wanna be scattered on a family farm or in the mountains or something. But I would always recommend do that with a portion of them 'cause you can never get them back and definitely find a permanent place for the rest of the ashes because people end up, you would not believe how often, like we'll get a call from someone who is cleaning out a storage locker and they're like, oh we found this urn. So we have to go in and if it's somebody that Bowie cremated, you know, we can go in and we can search the number 'cause everybody has a a identifier and so we can find out who it is and contact the family. But that shouldn't be treated any different than a body. Like that is someone's loved one and it should be placed somewhere permanently where it can be visited and honored forever.

Vance Crowe [00:21:53] Wow. First of all that there's a numbering system is is like fascinating, right? That there's like a file somewhere and then you guys are preserving that and then the idea that like the, that it's a body in there. Like what do you, I'm even struggling to know what question to ask because I like, do you know what you want for your funeral?

Kacie Derby [00:22:19] I mean not exactly but yes I think I would want full services beforehand and then I would like to be cremated afterwards so that I could in a cemetery, like the cremation options, I think they're more fun, they're prettier, they're cooler looking stuff like that. So I would still want services but I would like to be cremated later and then placed in a cemetery

Vance Crowe [00:22:38] And the placement where people have a graveside, you, you presumably are around cemeteries quite a bit. People go visit those, their loved ones there.

Kacie Derby [00:22:48] We have a really active cemetery. The cemetery that I work in, we get a lot of visitors and we do a lot of burials throughout the year. So people actually all ask when we give tours they're like, who places all these flowers and the families do. So they're visiting.

Vance Crowe [00:23:02] I think I've only been to a cemetery maybe four or five times in my life. Really? Yeah. Like and I have to, I don't think that I'm rare. Like I don't think I'm all that unique. It

Kacie Derby [00:23:12] Totally depends too. And well, and I guess it depends sort of if you've, you said you haven't been to a lot of funerals so if you haven't lost a lot of loved ones, you may not have a reason to go visit a cemetery.

Vance Crowe [00:23:21] Yeah, I feel like that is a bill that you're gonna pay it someday, right? Yeah. Like either you pass away first or you you have to go to funerals. Yes. And I've just been, you know, racking up the debt there fortunately. And then people have been around when you are around death all of the time. Does it change the way you think about death and permanence and

Kacie Derby [00:23:45] Kind of Yeah, I think that, I think that I would struggle to practice 'cause I'm a, I'm a licensed funeral director but I don't practice that day to day and I think I would struggle to do that every day and take it home with me. 'cause you know, you almost have to do that or find a way to shut it off and you don't wanna become numb to it of course. 'cause you need to be available for those families. So that's a line that the funeral directors I think have to walk and I see it, you know, on the side that I work on as well. But yeah, it makes me appreciate things a lot more. It makes me go home at night and hug my family more than I, not that I didn't do that before, but more than I would have just, just knowing. 'cause it's not just elderly people who pass away. Like it could happen to anybody anytime.

Vance Crowe [00:24:26] You've probably seen that too, right? Yes. To be, to be more aware of it because it can feel like, ah, that death happens to other people but not, not people like us or

Kacie Derby [00:24:34] Not me. Right.

Vance Crowe [00:24:35] Yeah. You have young children at home. Do you talk with them about death?

Kacie Derby [00:24:42] Ki they know where I work and like on Memorial Day weekend, I work all weekend 'cause the cemetery's full. So I usually take them with me and they don't fully understand but they know like we have grandparents buried, they have great grandparents buried in that cemetery. So they know they're underground and they're like, what? I thought heaven was up there. Why are they down there? And they, we talk about death I guess more in my house than most places would. But I think they have a healthy relationship with death. Like when I've lost grandparents, I've taken them to the services, they can see them. 'cause for kids, a lot of times people wonder if they should involve them or bring them and if you don't, they know that they had someone who loved them in their life who is just now gone. And that's what death is to them. Like

Vance Crowe [00:25:20] They're just gone.

Kacie Derby [00:25:21] Yes. And so that's really hard for them. People think they're gonna harm them by letting them see their deceased loved ones. But that's, that's not the case.

Vance Crowe [00:25:29] Yeah. I got a long thank you letter at one point I had a a like a family friend pass away and I went to the visitation at their house. So it wasn't like a like with the body there, but I had to take my daughter. It was either not take my daughter and not go or go. And I got a really long letter from the wife thanking me for bringing the from, she was like an infant daughter. But it was like this is the circle of life. This is like so wonderful. But it was, it was like none easy decision to bring your child there. 'cause you're like, do I wanna, you know, death is this dark thing and this is like this loving little child. Yes,

Kacie Derby [00:26:04] Yes. What

Vance Crowe [00:26:04] Do I want to do? And you think bring children if you can? For

Kacie Derby [00:26:08] Sure. I don't, I mean they don't understand it but we don't even really fully understand it. You know, death and afterlife and everything. So sometimes their thoughts about it and the things that my kids have said are more profound than anything I've ever known. So they, you know, they understand as much as they understand, but it's better than them just never seeing this person again who was such if, if it was a person who was a big part of their life.

Vance Crowe [00:26:30] Yeah, I guess they think about the old trope about the dog went off to a farm, you know? Yeah.

Kacie Derby [00:26:34] Like

Vance Crowe [00:26:34] That. Like and then you're just like, oh I thought he was happy somewhere else.

Kacie Derby [00:26:38] Yes. Well and then it can give them, you know, if, if that is the case somewhere, especially if we're not doing a good job explaining it, they can come, you know, have separation issues and things like that. If they just think that someone leaves and that means they're dead, what does that really mean that kids can really struggle with that. Wow. So I'm a big advocate for yeah bring, bring the children

Vance Crowe [00:26:56] And being around cemeteries then you probably see that there's all different types of headstones. Some you know, very modest, very small, some like large monoliths. Tell me about that. What makes a person decide what they're gonna put there?

Kacie Derby [00:27:12] There is, depending on the cemetery, there are, you know, rules and regulations. But then people just kind of, some people have it in their mind that they want something specific and each one, whether it is like a granite monument, which is what we do a lot of or you see like bronze ones that sit on the ground flat or there's mausoleums and other standup, you know, buildings that you just engrave upon. But they're all totally customized. So it's a unique work of art for each family to choose, you know, a font and an emblem and things that are gonna represent them. So, you know, words of wisdom, things like that that they put on them. So each one is, is even though you know, you're standing in a cemetery and you might be looking and seeing thousands, each one is a unique work of art put together for that specific person that's been there forever.

Vance Crowe [00:27:55] And you know, you think about, so we haven't really talked about your role. I, I think we will. But one of the things that people are doing is planning like, hey, I wanna have this person, my loved one or myself buried in this cemetery. How long are they thinking about this for? Do they care about that, you know, plot for 10 years, a hundred years, a thousand years? Like how far is the distant future for people?

Kacie Derby [00:28:23] I would say most people it's about 10 to 15 years before death. However, we have people now who will come in with like a deed. They bought property in like the sixties and so they pay nothing for it compared to what it would cost them today. So they got a deal. And that's amazing when you say, and that's why you do it too, is to, you know, you do it to say protect your family but also because there's a cost savings. 'cause you can buy it today's prices. So they'll come in with a deed. I'm like, bought this for 50 bucks. You got a suite.

Vance Crowe [00:28:51] Oh or plots. I have plots gone up over time with the like to, to be buried in. Oh I guess they would wouldn't,

Kacie Derby [00:28:57] It's just, I mean it's, it's a little bit of real estate but it's, yeah like real estate, everything, everything goes up. So,

Vance Crowe [00:29:03] And you buy that property presumably forever, right? So the,

Kacie Derby [00:29:06] Yes, it depends on the cemetery but yes, in our cemetery we don't buy it back. You can sell it to someone else but we will never bury anyone else there. We'll never put anyone else there. So that's, it's your piece of land forever whether you end up going in it or not.

Vance Crowe [00:29:18] What a fascinating idea. And then as a part of being buried there, then you like the cemetery agrees to doing the upkeep and keeping the grass away from there. And

Kacie Derby [00:29:30] Yes, so there is, in Missouri you can be registered as a perpetual care cemetery. And so we are, and I would advise anyone looking at cemetery to make sure your cemetery is a perpetual care cemetery. 'cause that means that a portion of every sale that you make goes into this fund and you're not allowed to touch it until the cemetery is fully full and doing no more internments. And so then there presumably should be hundreds of thousands of dollars there to take care of it forever so that it'll never end up looking bad. And you don't have to be a perpetual care cemetery, but you should.

Vance Crowe [00:29:58] Wow. Because the alternative would be the cemetery could run outta money and then you sell that property. Yeah.

Kacie Derby [00:30:03] If you're not, if you're not doing burials or you know, selling monuments and there's no money coming in, they won't have money to upkeep, to upkeep a cemetery. So once they're full

Vance Crowe [00:30:13] Fascinating. And when you think like it's just such an awesome responsibility if you are a cemetery to to say like we are going to take care of this for for forever. For as long as humans can conceivably imagine.

Kacie Derby [00:30:29] There's always, yeah, there's always gonna be heirs to this person. You know, more and more people will be born more family members. But we always tell people in the cemetery, you know, we have, we have a lifelong relationship with you so we wanna make sure everybody's where they are and everything looks amazing and they have a very peaceful experience when they come to visit. 'cause they're going, you know, families are going through something anyway when they've just lost someone. So we don't wanna do anything to add to their stress. So

Vance Crowe [00:30:53] You're a funeral director and but you don't spend day in and day out like actually at the funerals. You spend time helping people prepare their funerals?

Kacie Derby [00:31:03] Yes, they plan ahead. So I have a team and they help families plan ahead for the funerals and for the cemetery side.

Vance Crowe [00:31:09] And how does somebody get into work like this?

Kacie Derby [00:31:13] So that is also some people, most people I don't think do it on purpose. I didn't do it on purpose, I just kind of fell into the industry. But it, a license is required, two licenses because the, when you're selling a preplanned funeral, the money is not allowed to be held at the funeral home. It has to go into an outside entity in the purchaser's name to make sure that it's always safe and audited for them. So it goes into, it's a variation of a life insurance policy. So it's a funeral policy and you need a license to sell life insurance to sell those. And then you need a pre-planning license in the state of Missouri to help families plan their funeral.

Vance Crowe [00:31:48] And so you like when you were doing this, we talked before you, you were thinking hey I want to grow up to be an event planner.

Kacie Derby [00:31:55] Yes,

Vance Crowe [00:31:56] But no event planners that I know of are like, I wanna be an event planner to plan for death.

Kacie Derby [00:32:01] No. And I, and that's when I started at the funeral home. That wasn't my job either, but totally like I wanted to be like a fun, like a wedding planner, a party planner and now I plan funeral. So it kind of came full circle but, but yeah, it's just as important of an event. Yeah. But not

Vance Crowe [00:32:19] What made you wanna be an event planner? Where are you? Are you like a fun loving, let's get everybody together? Yeah,

Kacie Derby [00:32:23] I, I was just always like the party planner among my family and I still am among my family and friends. Like I might call me fun but they might just call me bossy. Like I'm the one who's

Vance Crowe [00:32:31] Like putting

Kacie Derby [00:32:32] Everything together and making the plans and just always thought it would be fun to, to plan weddings and to get into that sort of event planning world. And that's what my degree was in. So when I found out there was an opening for an event planner at Bowie, I was like, well I don't wanna plan funerals. Which is funny 'cause now that's exactly what I do.

Vance Crowe [00:32:49] What did you originally plan for with the events?

Kacie Derby [00:32:52] So we do a lot out in the community. So we do a, a peace officer's event every year where we honor the police officers and all the officers who have been killed in the line of duty or died while serving. We do a big veterans event the day before Memorial Day every year where we honor all of the veterans in the county who have died in the last year. And we invite the families, we do a couple of memorial events each year where we invite families who have lost someone, kind of a group memorial service. We bring in Dr. Ellen Fel, who I quoted earlier every year. And he comes and does a community seminar for grieving families. And then he does a professional seminar for hospice and clergy. We do a lot of seminars out in the community just on education. And then we try to go into like all the senior living facilities, senior apartments and talk to them about either pre-planning or about caring for the caregiver. A lot of them are someone who is a spouse, you know, they're caring for the spouse and also caring for themselves. So just a lot of that community involvement and the, oh and then we have a silver and gold club. So it's just a senior club. Lisa Bowie started it in 1996 just as a widows and widowers lunch club. And then it kind of has snowballed over the past 25 years. And so now we have about 4,000 members and we'd plan luncheons and day trips and all kinds of fun events for them. So that was everything I did when I first started.

Vance Crowe [00:34:06] And what did you learn as you were doing all the, that part of this work?

Kacie Derby [00:34:10] I loved it and it was a way to work in events where I didn't have to work when everyone else was playing. I didn't have to work on evenings and weekends because most of the people I was doing events for were retired and there were some evenings and weekends but I was also a department of one so I didn't get to have a lot of involvement with the families and really kind of helping them at that time. So I wanted to get more involved in helping families, which is how I moved into, into this role.

Vance Crowe [00:34:32] And then, so you go from being an event planner with no licenses in the world of insurance sales and funeral is then do you have to go back to school or you get a big manual and start reading?

Kacie Derby [00:34:43] Oh so you can, to be a funeral director, you can go to mortuary school, a two year program or you can do a two year apprenticeship. So I did the apprenticeship 'cause I already worked there. And so then you just kind of do on the job learning and you're in charge of so many arrangements and then you get licensed and then the insurance license is just a test and then the pre-need license is also just a test.

Vance Crowe [00:35:04] And so when you're doing this apprenticeship, you've like finally decided you're going to cross over to the other side. That's right. Like what were you surprised by? By being behind the curtain and, and doing funerals now.

Kacie Derby [00:35:19] Hmm. I guess by the funeral directors, I was just amazed by them just day in and day out, spending time around all this sadness and still just being able to like give their all, give all their attention and all of their affection and everything that this family needs to kind of help them in the moment. Which again, I was getting my license but I think I realized then that I can't do this day in and day out all the time. I don't think I, it's a, it takes a special person and we have a lot of special people doing that. So

Vance Crowe [00:35:46] What, what qualities would you say make somebody special enough to be able to do that? I mean I certainly couldn't, I, there's no, that would be incredibly draining on me.

Kacie Derby [00:35:55] Yes, I think so too. I think someone who really wants to help others 'cause they, instead of it being draining, they're gaining energy, you know, from that help that they're giving others. But they're, they're caregivers and event planners based and, and then they have, you know, the state requirements and things like that. But at the heart of it, I think funeral directors are caregivers and event planners. So as long as they're people who gain energy from doing those things,

Vance Crowe [00:36:16] Then it's so interesting to even consider that they're caregivers because I, you know, I think of death in funerals like as essentially that kind of a, not not even joking around, like crossing over to that other side where they're caring for the dead people but they're not, I mean they are in, in the fact legally there but

Kacie Derby [00:36:32] A little, it's a such a small piece of their time that is spent caring for the actual dead person when most of the time is to help the family begin healing to, to care for the family.

Vance Crowe [00:36:41] Yeah. And I, you know, in, in my world I grew up in small town America so the funeral directors in our town are like third generation funeral directors and that's just what that family does. But you know, somebody has to join that world, you know, like you for example have to come into that world somehow. They have to get new people.

Kacie Derby [00:37:02] But

Vance Crowe [00:37:02] How that selection process, how somebody becomes this if they weren't a part of a family, you know, dynamic of it. I can't imagine how how they get new people involved in the funeral.

Kacie Derby [00:37:13] A lot of people, we need people, we need funeral directors if anybody wants to go to school to be a funeral director 'cause it's not like as popular as it used to be. But it is, it does come, you know, people come from, they, they have a family history in it one way or another. Whether their family has always owned a funeral home or maybe they know someone who worked in one or you know, worked in one growing up, it seems like a lot of times you talk to people and they're like, oh yeah I used to drive a hearse or I used to mow the lawn at a cemetery. Like a lot of people have have had a little bit of involvement but just not major. And then a lot of people also I think go into this profession because they've experienced a terrible loss and either wanted to get involved to help others or, or had a funeral director who just helped them so much that they wanted to help others. 'cause a lot of people that I work with and that I've come across in my career have just had a, a loss that got them interested in this field.

Vance Crowe [00:38:00] And so in your part of the field you're doing planning when, what level of plan are you doing? The, hey let's talk about it on the macro level or are you sitting down across from people saying, would you like this casket or that casket?

Kacie Derby [00:38:14] Yeah, very. We get all the vital information so you need a lot of information that we have to give to the state to file for a death certificate. And so that's a lot. Some of it's, you know, everybody usually knows their first, middle and last name. But not everyone knows where their parents were born or their mother's maiden name. And then if you're, and that's, you know, if we're planning, if I'm sitting with someone who's planning for themself, so if I'm working with their children or their grandchildren as a funeral director at the time, it might be hard for them to come up with that information and we need it to file for the death certificate. So we go really in depth into like their history and all the information that we'll need at the time to file for a death certificate. And then we talk about, yeah, what are your favorite kind of flowers? What kind of flowers do you want? What songs do you want played? Who do you want your pallbearers to be? What do you wanna wear? Which casket do you want? Which location are we using? Which church are we doing a church service or no? So very, very in depth. 'cause the idea is that then at the time their family will have to come in and pick dates and times with the funeral director and say yes this is what we want. So that the family then has time to go home and just do things that are gonna help them move forward in their grief. You know, look at pictures and tell stories instead of doing the runaround and having to look for Google and look through Google to plan, help plan this service. 'cause we don't want them to have to focus on the logistics of the funeral. We want that to be done ahead of time and then they can go home and do things that are gonna help them.

Vance Crowe [00:39:33] I often hear people say like guys maybe saying like, oh I just want to be buried in a pine box. Right? Like, or just gimme the cheapest casket you have. Tell me about the thought process people have when they're going through and they're thinking about what they wanna be buried in.

Kacie Derby [00:39:50] So we, they look, you know, there's lots of different options that they can look at.

Vance Crowe [00:39:54] Is there a pine box there?

Kacie Derby [00:39:56] And a pine box is not as cheap as you might be? Oh really? But yes, I mean there are also lots of caskets yes that are made out of pine. So caskets in MAs of woods or metals and then go, what goes into, 'cause we have a lot of people that are like, well what, why is that one so expensive? I want the cheapest one. What makes this one cheaper? And it just, it depends on the materials they're made of. So if it's a metal, how thick is the metal? 'cause that's gonna make a difference. How strong is the casket? If it's a wood, what type of wood is it made of? Because some words are more scarce so they're gonna cost more. Some are stronger so they're gonna cost more. And some, you know, if they're more readily available, they're a lot of different factors that go into that. And then once you pick your material, the craftsmanship that goes into the casket itself, you know, some of them, you know, on a wood one it might be polished and polished and polished and polished for weeks to make it look the way it does. And the same with the metal one, the corners of it, you know, are they like rounded because if they're rounded and you can see that someone had to sand that like that was a person that stood there and sanded that smooth or is there like a block on the corner of it that hides the seams where it comes together? Little things like that that you don't think about. And then like the interior of a casket, what material is it made out of and are there like a lot of folds and tufts in the, in the head and stuff like that. 'cause all of that goes into the cost of it because that's all the craftsmanship that has to go into it as it goes through all the steps.

Vance Crowe [00:41:10] And as people are imagining like wanting that to be beautiful, is the thing that they want it to be beautiful for the ceremony or do they want it to be, you know, because it's like a, it's a weird thing, right? You're putting it in the ground hopefully you don't ever have to dig the thing up again, right? Yes, hopefully. But like you wouldn't be like, well in case this gets dug up, I want it to be really to look good. Yeah, really nice. Or I want to have been comfortable. So what do you think the thought process is if people,

Kacie Derby [00:41:36] It's definitely the focal point, you know, that's what everyone's gonna walk up to at the service and see. So some people want, you know, especially like people who are like a woodworker, they might want a specific type of wood 'cause it's something that would represent them. And some people have a preference one way or another. Some people want it to be a certain color. So if it's a wood, do we want a darker or light? But if it's a metal it can be pink or blue or you know, beige or gray or silver. There's lots of different options. And so it's definitely the focal point of the surface and the grave side until it's lowered into the ground. And then also once it goes, usually it goes into a vault before it's buried. And so if you have a a fancier, you know, or a more sturdy vault, you may not need quite as sturdy of a casket, but if you've got a really sturdy casket, maybe you can spend a little less on the vault. If it becomes a money situation,

Vance Crowe [00:42:22] Those conversations wait mean that it goes, goes into a vault first.

Kacie Derby [00:42:25] So most em, not all it's a cemetery rule if it is at a cemetery, but most cemeteries are gonna require a vault. And the vault makes sure that the ground always kind of stays level because otherwise as the ground settles and the caskets are all different sizes and things like that, it's gonna create not a nice place to visit. Not a nice flat area that people, oh

Vance Crowe [00:42:45] You would have bumpy, bumpy cemeteries one.

Kacie Derby [00:42:49] And then also it protects the casket and the person inside. So again, not that you want, you know, you want that visual of your loved one being preserved and okay and not being, you know, smashed by anything, but also just in case you may ever have to dig them up again. Which happens on the only, only rarest of occasions. But you, you know, then it was in a vault, it was protected. So it protects the casket and the person inside and the ground at the cemetery.

Vance Crowe [00:43:10] And that is you dig the hole and you're building some sort of like framework out to put the casket in.

Kacie Derby [00:43:16] You put the, you place, you build, dig the hole and then place the vault in it and then the casket gets placed into the vault.

Vance Crowe [00:43:20] And so you is that another per that man if, if I'd have been going to a funeral right now or I was planning one and somebody said, oh you've also gotta buy this vault. I'd be like, no really? Are people surprised by buying a vault?

Kacie Derby [00:43:32] Sometimes. Sometimes they know. I guess it depends on how much re much research they've done. You can also do a mausoleum is above ground burial and then you don't need a vault 'cause you're not going in the ground. So if people want to, if it's a cost issue and people want to avoid that cost, that's another option. Some people just don't like the idea of being underground, so they wanna be buried above ground. And then also you never have to wander around to see the marker. Usually you can walk up and you know where you're gonna be, you know, in that mausoleum. Whereas on the ground, things kind of all start to look the same sometimes. But that's totally a matter of personal preference.

Vance Crowe [00:44:03] Yeah, it's, it's funny because I think about like how silly it is that, you know, you've got, you're putting this money into dying or whatever, but as you described, people don't wanna be in a casket like ca you know, down underground. I, I feel that. Right. Even though I know I can logically say I will be dead and will not experience what it's like to be in that casket. The thought of me being buried by that, I'd rather be cremated. Right? Like it's funny that you have, you, your experience with people is to have them logically walk through something that is like, I, I don't even know how to describe it, but you're dead, so what does it matter? But it does matter to them while they're alive.

Kacie Derby [00:44:49] Yes. And we're planning for their family. So what, you know, what is your family gonna need at the time? There's no way for you to know exactly what they'll need, but you can plan the best you can to, to meet your family's needs at the time.

Vance Crowe [00:45:01] And when people are going through this planning process, what, what is the part where you're like, okay, this is, this is usually where people get surprised or caught off guard or they weren't, they didn't know they were gonna have to answer this.

Kacie Derby [00:45:13] I think with cremation, usually people are like, oh, I'm gonna be cremated, I'm good. And you're like, whoa. So with a traditional casket, aerial, you still got choices to make, but you've got a, a basic framework because that casket has to go into a cemetery, you know, in the ground or in a mausoleum. There is a plan. Obviously there's gonna be a service if, you know, if you're in a casket with the cremation, you can take an urn anywhere. So it, people think that they've made all their decisions and we're like, okay, no, you actually have way more decisions to make now that you've chosen cremation because you've got a lot more options as far as services go. You've got a lot more freedom of where it could take place depending on if you're doing the cremation before your services or after. Of course. And then also in the cemetery, there are a lot more options as well.

Vance Crowe [00:45:53] Yeah. And the, when you open up that optionality and now all of a sudden you do consider, I mean like the thought of somebody putting you in a storage closet is pretty, it's sad. Yeah, pretty sad.

Kacie Derby [00:46:03] And it's a lot of responsibility to put on your loved ones. 'cause we have people who come in, they're like, oh, I've got my, my mom's urn up in the closet and it's been there for 10 years. Like, and that's your mom. So you care about that urn. But with every generation, less and less importance is placed on that urn. And it's not someone's loved one anymore, it's just an urn. So let's put 'em somewhere because they deserve that. And their life deserves to be honored.

Vance Crowe [00:46:28] What do you think happens when you die?

Kacie Derby [00:46:31] I believe in God. I believe in heaven. So I believe there is an afterlife and you know, we'll be with our loved ones again.

Vance Crowe [00:46:37] And as you think about the afterlife and, and this like non impermanence, right? Like you, you get to go on to heaven. How does that get reflected in your ceremony? How does that, like what do, what do you think is important about reflecting where you're going from where you were?

Kacie Derby [00:47:00] Hmm. I think like as part of the ceremony? Yeah. Like why is that? I mean, I think that's, I, to me at least, I think it's important. 'cause I want, I, I'm teaching my children more than anything, I guess. Like, I think whether, you know, whatever you believe in, I think it makes your life happy here. If you believe that there's something else afterwards, that that's not just the end. And I think it's important to reflect that in your service, to let you know, you know, I'm still here, I'm still watching over you. We'll be together again. And you know, if it's the way the wind blows or you see a butterfly, you know, there's little signs I think things that I have seen, you know, that have reminded me of my grandparents. And I've been, oh, you know, maybe that was a coincidence, but maybe not.

Vance Crowe [00:47:41] As people are planning, like what are the questions that always come up? What are the things that people always wanna know? Hmm.

Kacie Derby [00:47:49] I mean, they wanna know about cost

Vance Crowe [00:47:51] And how, how important is cost when people are planning it?

Kacie Derby [00:47:54] It depends, for some people it's a, it's a big factor. And they're, you know, looking for something low cost because that's all they can afford. And for some people not at all. They just, they want what they want. So there's a wide range of, of people obviously that we're working with. So

Vance Crowe [00:48:08] If somebody walked in and said, I wanna do the least expensive thing that I can, can you already give them a ballpark figure? Oh yeah. For where they're gonna come in. So what would be the like in that ballpark?

Kacie Derby [00:48:20] So like for the least expensive thing. So if you, and that would be basically a cremation with no services at all. You get cremated, your family picks up your earn and takes it home. And so that depending on where you, where you go, that's gonna cost anywhere from like 1000 to $3,000.

Vance Crowe [00:48:34] Oh, okay.

Kacie Derby [00:48:36] But then your family doesn't get anything. So I would always, when people, you know, if it becomes a cost conversation, let's talk about that because you know, if you can't afford something, that's one thing. But let's, let's talk about how we're gonna plan something for your family. 'cause even if you're taking the earn home, we wanna have a plan in place so that your family gets that ceremony and that time and that, you know, time for your family to come, come together.

Vance Crowe [00:48:59] Yeah. That goes back again to the, the funerals are for the living. And if you say, Hey, I wanna bring this cost down because I'd rather pass on money to them than this, you don't really know.

Kacie Derby [00:49:09] And a lot of times when they do that, the, the family later will add a service, you know, when it comes, when it was a pre-need. And then we call that turning at need when someone dies and we're carrying out those pre-plan, the family will add a service anyway. So, which is good. They're still getting what they need. But I try to tell people that too, like they're probably gonna add it anyway. So

Vance Crowe [00:49:29] What do, what do you know about preparing your family to have a good funeral? As far as for the people that are showing up, like

Kacie Derby [00:49:39] I would say something that just truly represents you. Like making sure that it's not generic. That you're, you are shown through and there through the music or the decorations, the smells or the food that is served. Just making sure that you're represented. 'cause that's what they're there for, you know, is to honor you and, and anything that we wanna make sure at any funeral that I would be a part of that when you walk in, you know whose service you're at or whose visitation you're at. Because again, of how it looks, how it smells, how it's set up, what you're eating, what you know, the music that's playing.

Vance Crowe [00:50:10] So I don't, I've been actually since we've decided we were gonna do this, I've been very excited about this podcast because it's so rare that you get to talk with somebody like this. But when I was younger I was dating a girl whose brother passed away unexpectedly and the parents were totally distraught and I'm just like a boyfriend of a few weeks. Like this was not like some in-depth relationship. And the mother when I walked in handed me a camera and said, would you take photos of people as they go up to the casket? And I was like, I don't think people want me photographed as as they're, you know, grieving at the casket one. Am I right? People probably don't wanna be photographed in that experience.

Kacie Derby [00:50:56] So it's so funny that you say that 'cause we've been having this conversation lately at work. Like should we offer that like professional photography? Because some people I think would be totally weirded out by it and not want it at all. But there are people who hire photographers to come out anyway and you don't probably want a lot of pictures of the deceased, but you are taking a picture of like a very important moment in someone's life when they're saying goodbye to someone they love. Also you might have family there from all over the world, maybe that's never together and they're all dressed up and you might want pictures of that and you know, just an emotional really important time. It's just, we just had that conversation 'cause people are doing it. They're bringing in their own photographers.

Vance Crowe [00:51:34] Well I'm glad 'cause I've never, I don't even think I've ever discussed this, but it's always been one of those things where I ended up being like, no. And it was like a really tough Oh you told me no in the moment. Yeah because I was like, I want you to like me but not as much as I want to not like impose on these people here. Well

Kacie Derby [00:51:52] Especially, yeah, being the boyfriend, I was

Vance Crowe [00:51:54] Right, right. Who's that guy? Yeah, maybe the parents like me. But now all of the friends think I'm like the word, you know, and maybe they wouldn't have cared, but I knew like, but I've never really been able to ask anybody because I asked the funeral director and he was like, well it's a personal choice. You know, you just have to make that on your own. 'cause I was hoping somebody else would take care of the problem for me. But as you think about this, like there must be a lot of circumstances where at the funeral one person wants one thing and another person wants another thing. How have you seen that play out?

Kacie Derby [00:52:26] That's a huge reason to plan ahead because it does happen. Because no one, this is not a situation where anyone's willing to compromise. 'cause if you have multiple children, everyone wants what's best, you know, for their mom. And no one is willing to say, alright, you go ahead and get what you want 'cause they don't wanna,

Vance Crowe [00:52:40] Because I'll get the next one.

Kacie Derby [00:52:42] Right. They don't wanna have those regrets. They wanna do only what's best. So that's when, when there's not a plan in place or when someone doesn't know, you know, you'll have some sometimes where they're like, well she told me she didn't want cremation. And then in later years she told somebody else on cremation was okay. So they're like deadlocked there. Like what are we gonna do? Because you wanna do what's best for, for your loved ones of course. And people only want the best. So that's where planning ahead comes in hugely handy. Because you can avoid those, you know, they know what you wanted because there's a plan there. But there's a lot of family dynamics involved, which is another but wonderful skill of a funeral director is to being able to kind of navigate those in a way that kind of makes everybody feel like they're getting what they want and getting what they need.

Vance Crowe [00:53:22] Yeah, I mean the, the, I remember feeling horrible about going to that funeral director 'cause I was like, but I want him to officiate this thing 'cause I have no idea. Like thought yes

Kacie Derby [00:53:32] Is his job either

Vance Crowe [00:53:32] The last funeral I was at was in Africa and I didn't know the person and I really messed up and I'm not gonna mess this one up. But like, yeah, I mean like the pressure and that would be such an interesting part of being a funeral director because for the people you are serving, this is one of the most important moments of their life. And they're gonna be gone in the next and maybe later that afternoon or that next day. You've gotta start over with a whole different group with all different kinds of

Kacie Derby [00:54:01] And give them yeah. The full focus and everything they deserve as well.

Vance Crowe [00:54:07] How have you seen funerals change over the last 11 years?

Kacie Derby [00:54:11] There's a lot less, I wanna say not a lot less, but a trending towards less like formal services. Like, whereas there used to be, you know, the formal funeral service, a lot of people will do like a celebration of life or something more like low key where it's more of like a open house style, I guess. Like for lack of a better word, instead of having a formal service out of it. Or also, you know, it all used to be very religious based and there's a lot more just spiritual services. Less and less people are tied to a church or a religion, but they do believe in something and they have a spiritual side, so they want something but it, they don't want it to be religious based. So we've really had to kind of pivot and make sure that we have like, we have a memorial list on staff who can, can do a non-religious service.

Vance Crowe [00:54:58] Oh interesting. And,

Kacie Derby [00:55:00] And a celebrant also who does all religions. But he can also do a non-religious service as well.

Vance Crowe [00:55:04] And this is because people, even if they're not religious, they still have things that they wanna express that can't be done with words. And so they want some kind of a ceremony but there's no rigid structure. So they have to come up with

Kacie Derby [00:55:16] Right.

Vance Crowe [00:55:17] Some sort of structure, some sort of ceremony.

Kacie Derby [00:55:19] And there is, there's a certification. You can be a certified celebrant. Like there's a certification for someone who is a professional in that, in in bringing that together and structuring it so that it's still very meaningful for the family. Everyone's getting what they need, but we're not bringing in the religious aspect if that's something that they don't want to be a part of it.

Vance Crowe [00:55:36] Wow. And as I think about the funerals, that would probably be the toughest. Not that I don't, maybe that's not even a fair way to say it. Right. But I think about things like suicide and children dying. Right? Those seem to be like the ones that are the hardest to, to wrap your mind around what is different about those funerals than the ones where it's somebody that's been planning it and aged to that level.

Kacie Derby [00:56:06] It's definitely obviously harder on the family. You know, there, I don't wanna say harder because of course, you know, everyone's death is, is awful and everyone has their own experience. But in a situation like that where there was, you didn't see it coming and there was so much shock or you've lost a child, it, I suggest, you know, taking a little bit longer before they do the services just because you're in such a state of shock for so much longer when something like that happens. And then also we have a, a range of grief services that we offer to all families. But those families a lot of times really need them. You know, they need a counselor, someone to talk to. They need someone to kind of help them navigate the next couple of months they might need to be connected with like a local group. 'cause there are a lot of local nonprofits that help, you know, parents who have lost a child. There's sadly a lot of survivors of suicide. You know, support groups, people who have lost someone. So I would say it's different because you wanna make sure and you wanna continue to support all families after the death. But then you really wanna make sure that they have everything they need afterwards and they don't just feel kind of kicked out the door after the service. And our services are over because we really try to take care of families before, during, and after the death. And with a family like that, they, they need a lot of care after the death.

Vance Crowe [00:57:15] I just, in my life of intersected with a lot of wealth managers. So people that are like helping families stay together and keep their money as a part of the family. And one of the things to me said to me that really struck me was the most, I one of the most important things to keeping a family together is to figuring out how to grieve. Because every family experiences trauma and the ones that figure out how to grieve together or figure out how to get past it are the ones that stay together

Kacie Derby [00:57:45] And

Vance Crowe [00:57:45] The ones that don't are the ones that like, it doesn't matter how much money you have, it doesn't matter how good everybody is living. It's like the pain will rip everything apart

Kacie Derby [00:57:55] If you can't. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:57:56] If

Kacie Derby [00:57:56] You can't let yourself feel it and get through it.

Vance Crowe [00:57:58] Yeah. And

Kacie Derby [00:57:59] I think that's a lot of it true when people, when they don't grieve, when they don't like let themself grieve or let themself feel all those feelings that are terrible feelings to feel, but they're made, they're made for a reason, they're there for a reason. And so when people try to push those off, I think that creates, 'cause people shut down and they don't wanna, you know, communicate with others or have any kind of emotional reactions, things like that. So

Vance Crowe [00:58:22] Yeah. And when you're, when everybody around you is living, you can imagine yourself being like, ah, I'll handle it. It'll be sad, I'll go through this. But what they say about grief, or at least what I've heard men talk about, when you lose your parents or your father, like you all of a sudden are like, oh, I'm an orphan now. Now I am the dad that my dad once was. But you think you can logic your way through it, but there's so much of it that just isn't logic.

Kacie Derby [00:58:46] Right, right. That we don't like. Yeah, you can only comprehend so much of it and you're not the same After you lose someone like that, you can try to tell yourself all you want. I'll get through it and then I'll, I'll get back to normal and I'll be okay. But when you lose someone, you know, we see, we see pieces of ourselves in the people we love. So when you lose someone, you're different. And so you'll, you'll be different. So you have to let yourself go through that process and become this new person that you weren't before. And if you're not willing to do that, that can be a real struggle too.

Vance Crowe [00:59:15] When earlier we were talking about like suicide and the, and children dying. Have you ever helped a child plan their funeral?

Kacie Derby [00:59:26] No. No. Like planned ahead?

Vance Crowe [00:59:28] I mean, imagining that like you have a child that has cancer and they know that they're terminal. Is that something that happens?

Kacie Derby [00:59:35] I have not, no. No.

Vance Crowe [00:59:37] Interesting.

Kacie Derby [00:59:38] I would imagine that there are, I'm sure, I'm sure it's happened, you know, at the funeral home, but it's not something that I've been involved in. But yeah, I'm, I would assume the parents, you know, if they know it's, if they know it's coming closer that they would want to and that they would need definitely a lot of support in that time. But I have not been involved in that.

Vance Crowe [00:59:57] So in the world that you're in, how, how do you think about death differently than you think most other people do?

Kacie Derby [01:00:05] I mean, I'm okay. I'm okay with talking about it I guess. And I think it's important to talk about it. Like even my parents are like, oh, I don't know. And like it's different when you're the funeral director now. Like I'm the funeral person so nobody else needs to worry about anything. But I'll tell you, even with my grandpa's funeral, they were like, oh, Casey can just help with a lot of this stuff. So they didn't think they needed like the funeral home involved. And I don't wanna say it was a mess, but there were plenty of things. 'cause I don't do that day to day that we needed a funeral director involved for. So, and when I have lost someone, I'm not the funeral professional anymore. Like I'm the granddaughter. So my, my role within things is different.

Vance Crowe [01:00:42] Yeah. Your authority is different.

Kacie Derby [01:00:44] Yes. Yes. And I'm not, you know, I'm not thinking clearly through it like I am through other things.

Vance Crowe [01:00:50] What if people are saying, Hey, I wanna plan my funeral. What, first of all, what, where do they even go? How does one even begin this process?

Kacie Derby [01:01:00] So I work for Bowie Funeral Home, so I think everyone should use them of course. But any funeral home usually has a pre-planning option. Most funeral homes have someone on staff who can help you put that together, plan and put that together and kind of talk you through it. 'cause a lot of times people will come in and they don't even know what to ask. Like, they're like, where do we start? So kind of talking them through. 'cause some people don't know. They're like, well I don't know. I don't know if I want traditional casket or a cremation. I don't know if I want a church service or just a memorial service. And so any, any funeral home, like I said, should have someone on staff who can kind of walk you through that, through your different options and kind of help you go through what things have looked like for your family and then help you decide what's gonna be best for your family moving forward.

Vance Crowe [01:01:42] What should they be asking first? I don't,

Kacie Derby [01:01:48] I mean, lots of que things like, you know, if it's a cemetery, do you have a perpetual care cemetery? If it's a funeral home, are you doing your own cremations? You know, are things contracted out to other companies? Or if it's something is going on, do I know who's gonna have my loved one and who's gonna be taking care of it? I think those are the important questions. Not necessarily like what color caskets do you have? 'cause of course we'll get into that. But you know, how long have you, how long have you been in business and are you open 24 hours? Things like that. You know, just to know that someone's gonna be there for, for you, if you're planning ahead with a firm with a funeral home, you wanna make sure that they're gonna be there for you and do everything you need when the time comes.

Vance Crowe [01:02:25] Are funeral homes open 24 hours,

Kacie Derby [01:02:27] So I can't speak to all funeral homes.

Vance Crowe [01:02:30] Is your funeral home

Kacie Derby [01:02:31] Open? Yes. We're not open 24 hours, but we do have a call center. Someone is on call every night. So there's someone answering the phone 24 hours a day. And if it is a death, the answering service wakes up the funeral director and they call and someone will come out and pick your loved one up 24 hours a day. So yes. So not someone's not physically at the funeral home, but two people are on call every night and will be there within an hour.

Vance Crowe [01:02:51] These are things I would never even have considered. I, I would just be like, wow, it's office hours. Yeah, call us back at nine.

Kacie Derby [01:02:57] Nope, nope. We'll come anytime. It's sometimes family wants more time. But yes, there is someone from the, the care team who would go and pick someone up and bring them into our care and then a funeral director to talk to the family.

Vance Crowe [01:03:07] And when you're talking with your friends about the role that you have in the world, are they open to talking about your work and what you do and the things you're seeing?

Kacie Derby [01:03:17] Yeah, they think it's weird. Like a lot of, like, especially when I first started there and I was doing all the events, they're like, what is your job? You work at a funeral home. But yeah, no, they're definitely, I think open, more open to hearing, to listening and not being afraid to talk about it, which is good. Not being afraid to talk about death. And like some of my friends have gone through terrible losses that my like knowledge and resources have really been able to help them through, which makes me happy to be able to help my friends more than I could have of course. In the past,

Vance Crowe [01:03:46] What do you wish people knew about funeral directors and funerals? That they don't know

Kacie Derby [01:03:53] That they're not scary people. That

Vance Crowe [01:03:54] They're not,

Kacie Derby [01:03:55] That if you talk about your funeral, it doesn't mean you're gonna die. So it's okay to talk about, but I think people, 'cause I even, I did before I started working there, you know, you have this vision of the funeral director, like stiff black suit, you know, scary person to talk to. And they're all, all the funeral directors that I work with and that I've come across, they're, they're wonderful normal people and they're not scary to talk to at all. And they're fascinating. They have a wealth of knowledge that you probably don't know anything about. So

Vance Crowe [01:04:19] Yeah, and seeing like the, all the family dynamics and what can happen in life and

Kacie Derby [01:04:25] Yes, they're like counselors too. They can, they can help you through some stuff.

Vance Crowe [01:04:30] Well, Casey Derby, this has been a really interesting conversation. I've been really looking forward to, to doing this. If people wanted to learn more about like you and the services that your funeral home offers, how would they go about that?

Kacie Derby [01:04:44] So bowie.com, B as in boy, a u e.com is the website and we're always doing different kinds of events, things for families and you know, we're running a cemetery. The cemetery website is sc memorial gardens.com. We're actually having an promotion this month where if you have an urn at home, we will enter your loved one at no charge. 'cause we wanna make sure that people can get their loved ones buried, that they're not in their closets and in storage facilities and stuff. But both of those websites have all the information about the businesses and have more information about me.

Vance Crowe [01:05:16] Wow. That's actually, I was, as you were starting to say that and like promotion, I'm like, oh man, how do you do a promotion for a funeral? But that actually,

Kacie Derby [01:05:23] That's ma I don't know. Yeah, that's not a great word to call it, but that's what it is. It

Vance Crowe [01:05:27] Makes a ton of sense, right? It's one of those things where you have this challenge sitting in your, you know, maybe it's a burden or it's a responsibility or whatever sitting somewhere. But to be able to relieve that burden and figure out a way to do it. Good for you guys. Yes.

Kacie Derby [01:05:39] In the month of September, yes. Anyone who wants to come in and meet in the month of September, we will do that at no charge for them. 'cause yeah, some people end up with three or four, that's just, it's a big responsibility and it's sad. We need to get them somewhere and get them memorialized.

Vance Crowe [01:05:51] Well, Casey Derby, thank you so much for coming on.

Kacie Derby [01:05:53] Thank you very much.

Vance Crowe [01:06:16] Thanks for sticking around to the end of the interview. As a special treat, we'd like to play a little clip of a legacy interview that was made public so that that way you can know what your loved one will experience when they come in to do an interview with us. If you'd like to learn more, go to Legacy Interviews dot com. Tell me about meeting your wife. So Becky and I actually met in Catholic grade school Yeah. In the sixth grade. So I used to play the organ at church. So at a young, at a young age, I played piano and, and guitar. But Becky and I met, gosh, we were 12 years old at the time, so we knew each other, sixth, seventh, and eighth grade. And then we went to different high schools. I went to Marion High School, she went to Heron, she went to SIU Carbondale and I finished up at S Slew and then we reconnected 14 years later. What did you think of her when, when you were just kids? When we were just kids and we, we, we were very friendly. Our, our families knew each other. I always thought she was, you know, beautiful, smart, well-spoken. But in sixth grade you don't really, you know, you think about maybe having a, a girlfriend, but it wasn't at the forefront of my mind. But whenever we reconnected 14 years later, that was a different story. How did that happen? So we actually, we reconnected at the baby gap of all places. Yeah, I, I heard it was a good place to meet women. That's a joke. I was there shopping for my niece, Annabel.

Vance Crowe [01:07:50] So Annabelle, Gallis Lawler lives down in Memphis. So at the time I was shopping for my niece and Becky was shopping for her niece, Addison. And we recognized each other right off, right. And I got her number and I called her the next day, asked her out, you know what? She said, no, I asked her out to lunch. So I said, you know what, let's try this again. How about maybe the following week for lunch? No, I can't do that. If I asked her three times. The third time I said, Becky, how about dinner? Can I take you out to dinner? And she said, yes. So first date, I'll never forget, we went to Barcelona and, and Clayton had some amazing tapas and some sangria, and we were sitting at the bar and the bartender, you know, we just kinda hit it off. And I'll never forget, the bartender said, how long have you guys been dating? And we asked him, we said, well, what do you think? He said, A couple years. And we said, this is our, is this a date? We said, this is our first date. So yeah, we kind of, we picked up where we left off at age 14. But that was, that was how Becky and I connected. We were married, gosh, back in 2009. And now we have two beautiful children. How long were you married before you had kids? Gosh, so Jillian was born 2011, so it wasn't long.

Vance Crowe [01:09:25] Two years. We were pregnant after, after about a year. And then our son was born two years later, 2013.