Chess Coach Reveals What Teaching Kids Chess Actually Does to Their Brains

Jonathan Singler [00:00:00] So I had lost thousands of games, right? When I get to that draw, it was by accident from my opponent in which they were playing blindfold. You know, go figure. It's not really much of a victory when your opponent, you know, accidentally makes a, a mistake. But they weren't, you know, looking at the board. But for me, it, it was obviously about winning the game and trying to figure out what it was that was causing me not.

Listener intro (station ID) [00:00:00] I'm Chris Haworth, a grain originator and accountant living in Pocahontas, Iowa, and you are listening to the Vance Crowe podcast.

Vance Crowe [00:00:39] Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Today we do part three of the Mind of the Child Series, where we explore how is it that children learn and what's going on in that inner dialogue as they try and figure out how to navigate this world. Today we have Jonathan Singler in to talk about the game of chess. Jonathan teaches kids how to play chess and how to improve their game, but not only that, he's getting his PhD at Webster University where he is learning how to teach educators how to teach children to play the game of chess. Webster University is an extraordinary program that's located here in St. Louis because they have what's called the Spice program, the Susan Polgar Center for Chess Excellence. This spice program has produced some of the best chess teams in the entire world, right here in little St. Louis, Missouri. And I had Jonathan in because they are preparing to hold the Spice Cup open right here in St. Louis, where people can play some of the best chess players in all of the world and see how you stack up against them. If you're interested, the tournament starts on December 18th and just Google Spice Cup and you can find out how to register. We're gonna head to the interview with Jonathan in just a moment, but a couple of quick notes. We are getting the last of the Legacy Interviews in that we can before the Christmas holiday. So if you're interested in having us sit down with your loved one to capture their family stories about their childhood, their career, their marriage, the parenting that they did, and the legacy that they wanna leave behind, head to Legacy Interviews dot com to book your interview so we can have it back to you in time to watch over the holidays.

Vance Crowe [00:02:16] The other note I wanted to make is I've updated my speaking list, the for talks that I'm giving in the upcoming season, and this year I'm looking forward to doing some really interesting new talks. One of them is how to tell family stories that Will Last 200 years. Many of you are involved in organizations that think about the longevity of the organization and how to be a part of family businesses. This talk encompasses how to tell stories that last and pass down values that matter to you. Other talks includes subjects like how to explain Bitcoin so that people that might not be interested in buying the technology still understand what the technology is all about. If you're interested in looking up some of the new talks that I'll be giving, you can go to Vance Crowe dot com to find out more. Alright, without further ado, let's head to the interview with my new friend, Jonathan Singler. Jonathan Singler, welcome to the podcast. So, at what age should a person that wants their child to be really good at chess, what age should they start working with their kid? Do you want

Jonathan Singler [00:03:21] The parent answer or the more research base to answer?

Vance Crowe [00:03:26] Whichever.

Jonathan Singler [00:03:28] So, as far as teaching kids with chess, especially children, you know, we're, we're seeing that children have the capacity for chess at say the ages of three and four, but what does that look like? Right? So when we think about chess, we're obviously thinking about masters, very complex positions and such, but you know, for children, the ability to just like identify a piece, even just recognize, you know, it sort of individuated as its own self being able to move right is, is sort of leaps and bounds, right, for learning. And so, you know, research has kind of talked about three, four years old. You might see this usually in like early childhood or early year skills type programs. The, in the international Chess Federation even has like some certifications for that area. But I think once they're about five, five and six, I think you really start getting more of that engagement back and forth with a child, which is where you're able to work on maybe literacy a little bit earlier, say than first grade. And actually seeing some of that creativity with their reasoning and how they're moving and their interaction and relationship with the game, I think comes out a little bit more than say at three and four. But yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:04:45] Well it seems like, you know, when you, when somebody's really into chess, they want to teach their child as early as possible because they know, like it was really easy for you to get a lot better at first, and then it kind of levels off. And I think like when you think about a little child, you're like, ah, this child can learn at an exponential rate. You work with kids to learn chess. What age do somebody like you start engaging with kids?

Jonathan Singler [00:05:08] Well, the youngest that I've engaged with has been four, four, and five. I think the, the majority of my students that are that young are actually in the five to 6-year-old range. 'cause they're getting into kindergarten. The, you know, school might have a afterschool chess program. And so of course the parents are like, Hey, I want my kid to jump on this because, you know, chess makes kids smart and we want them to, you know, beat the fifth graders, you know, as soon as possible. And it's a very tall glass to kind of, you know, drink as a coach because, you know, from whether you're a 15 or 1600 player, which is considered amateur or you're a grand at the top level, you know, there's, there's a lot of factors that go into your development as in chess. And, and so usually for children that are that young, I'm much more focused on the literacy part, and it's because I want to be able to have that exchange of chess language. So being able to speak chess, being able to write chess, because first off, this will translate into like their education learning, but more importantly, I want to develop in them the ability to pursue chess on their own. Right. Coaching is one aspect. It's like 10% of the work of for them to attain the mastery. And, and mastery is possible without a coach too. It's just you have to kind of figure it out for yourself and for children, because they don't really have that sense of direction they need, you know, they need structure, you know, as far as like when studying and things to kind of make some progress.

Jonathan Singler [00:06:41] The one thing I think that's critical with it is for the children not to be limited, right? To say chest knowledge or their creativity or motivation in the game. And, you know, children are much more capable than we realize. So I think as soon as we can embark on that language exchange, it then becomes a conversation over the board rather than just a, you know, here's a ROK and upon end game, you know, and this is what I want you to do. So. And

Vance Crowe [00:07:11] When you say chess literacy, you mean being able to name all the pieces and know what the difference between rank and file is on the board, that kind of thing?

Jonathan Singler [00:07:18] Sure. I mean, I mean, I, I think, well, maybe this is bad from a business model perspective of trying to get the chess student as many resources as they possibly can to sort of put you out of a job at some point as a coach, they, they need somebody better or maybe a different type of coach. But yeah, learning how the pieces move, but really being able to converse through the game. So for example, one of my 7-year-old students currently just turned seven, actually, you know, he's plays online. He's grown about 400 rating points in the past three months, which is a leap right from where he was. And we focus mainly on the literacy like notation, being able to annotate, which is, if you could imagine, you know, a chess game, you're writing down your moves, right? Or if you're playing online, the moves are there for you. Annotation is sort of the goal for me, at least as early as possible with them, because I want the students to be able to not only look over their game after they finish, right? Whether they won or lost the result. I'm not interested in, I'm interested in how did you go from point A to point Z and this, and now when you annotate, it's the comments in between those moves that they're writing. It's kinda like journalism a little bit. Well, at four and five years old, it's very difficult for children to do once they get, you know, to first grade about seven and eight years old, it flourishes a little bit more. They're writing sentences. Well, they can at least communicate what they're thinking, you know? And as a coach, I think it's really important to allow them to have their own voice with their games.

Jonathan Singler [00:08:53] Because in order for the, for a coach, I believe, to help that student progress, you know, that child, you really need to help them maybe learn that they are their own person in this process. They're the only ones sitting at the board making the decisions. They're the only ones that are processing their emotions. And so by getting them the ability to even just write a few words on say, on move five, they played 19 five. And, you know, and they basically wrote, you know, you know, I was happy I I was winning,

Vance Crowe [00:09:27] Man, this is, this is fascinating. So like, I I, I remember when I was studying chess at like a slightly deeper level, and I had to do the, you know, night to E seven, and it was so difficult for me. But if you learned that as a natural language, just like reading music, I'm sure that you can actually just kind of see it and you could read that game. That's one thing that's like a level of skill. But to be able to get them to then jump in on their own inner monologue, that's incredibly powerful. 'cause there are full on adults that aren't capable of understanding there's a voice inside of my head, or these are the emotions that are happening. Sure.

Jonathan Singler [00:10:05] I mean, chess is, well, so chess is about relationships first and foremost, you know, and it's a relationship between the ponds and the pieces, right? They coordinate together well, then it's also about the relationships between that and the squares that they're on. And, and then it's a relationship between you and your opponent's ideas. But chess is a very, you know, isolating, individualized game, right? It's conversation with yourself. And I think that's something that's missed. And so, you know, with children, it's much more difficult, right? To pull out the language because their language isn't as adept as yours or mine after, you know, having life experience. And, you know, what comes with furthering your education with the adults. It's interesting that I was, I was just talking to a colleague about this last night, some different modalities between teaching adults and teaching children. And, you know, I use the same methods for, or, you know, the same methods or tools for the adults and the children. But how you go about it is a little bit different. So for children, you know, children are more adept with technology now than ever before. They can navigate websites like chess.com and Lichess and, and so on. Lichess, I'm able to create a study for the children. They know how to click, click, click, get to it, they know how to import their game from Lichess or another website, and they know how to go in and add comments, right? Which is incredible because there's a huge skillset in that for them to be able to do it for themselves without me. So when it comes to the adults, the adults are obviously capable of those things, but what tends to be holding in the adults back in this process, using this like sort of journalism cathartic type process for the, to hear the voice that's going on in you, it's very easy to use chess as a tool for escapism.

Jonathan Singler [00:11:54] You know, I have my own backstory with that. And you can kind of just disappear in it, right? You're focused on the game, you're just looking at the moves. But what ends up happening, at least for myself that I've seen in some of my students recently in tournaments is that, you know, you're sitting there, you're under time pressure. You have a lot of thoughts going through your mind. You're like, okay, you know, maybe my opponent just made a what looks like to be a blunder, but is it a trap? And so you're thinking about that. You're worried about the time. Maybe you're like, oh gosh, I, you know, I gotta go pick up the kids, you know, at six o'clock. Oh, I'm looking at the time now, it's four 30, you know, the game's probably gonna take another two hours. Like, so I gotta hurry to stop, so I need to find a, a quick variation to get out of this. So you start having all of this monologue, and it's like, it is very loud, you know, and such a quiet moment where you're in a playing hall and it's all you're hearing are clicks and writing and, you know, maybe a, a checkmate or, you know, a good game here and there. And, and so it seems like with the adults, you're able to get deeper in a way. And obviously it's a very vulnerable process, right? You have, there's, there's a lot of trust involved. You know, there's a lot of transparency, and it takes time right? To, to develop that. You know, I've had students that are like, Hey, you know, I'm not comfortable with this yet. And it's like, great. So can you do this for yourself?

Vance Crowe [00:13:16] It's not obvious to me where the trust comes in that you're talking about. What do they have to

Jonathan Singler [00:13:18] Trust? Sure. So the, the trust or the vulnerability, if I were to say, you know, Vance, you know, as you're playing this chess game, like, what are you thinking about? You know, and you're like, well, I'm thinking about this move this. I'm like, no, no, no. Are you having thoughts outside of this chess game, you know, that are kind of coming in and distracting you from the game? Say it was a critical moment, you know, and you made the B blender, and then you got flustered and you resigned. And you know, when I ask you as a coach, like, how did your game get, you're like, oh, I just, I had a good game and I just blundered it away. Well, what should my question be? It should be, well, why, you know, why did that happen? You know, and how were you feeling? What were you thinking? Clearly you're frustrated. And as you dig a little bit deeper, you start finding that chess players have this voice, you know, as they're playing the game. And sometimes it's about chess, sometimes it's not. I think that might be a little bit of a difference between players at the top level versus maybe some amateurs. But doing that sort of journalism process in our training games, or even part of that annotation, right? Going back over your game and saying, okay, I saw this in this position, et cetera, and when they played this move, you know, I was worried, well, there's a very key word there, right? Worried you had an emotional reaction to something, you know, in front of you, you're playing a game and you have this, this reaction or this emotional feeling that probably impacted your thought process moving forward. So how long did that, you know, go through?

Jonathan Singler [00:14:50] Was it for two or three moose? How did it impact you say, developing a piece to get some more init initiative on the board, you know, to create an attack versus getting worried about your king safety and quickly castling and missing the, the only opportunity you had to come back. So that's what I mean by that, you know, monologue, a little bit of that, you know, journalism within the game to, at least for me as a coach, to understand what my players are going through.

Vance Crowe [00:15:18] Yeah. The, I'm sitting here thinking in my own mind, like, when I was a child, what other relationship did I have where somebody wanted to know about my inner monologue? And the only comparison I can make, it wasn't sports, which I played a lot of. It was when I was really into being in, in nature and outdoors, and I was in Boy Scouts, and I had somebody teaching me like, how to keep yourself calm so that you could observe other things. But it wasn't really like talking about my emotions. I, I don't think I did that until well into my, like, maybe near my twenties or something like that.

Jonathan Singler [00:15:53] Well, I, I think that comes with a bit of how chess is taught, right? So chess usually either as a coach or a teacher, like within a school, you know, when children are learning chess, it's usually for the purpose of improving, right? Your technical skill in the game. Well, what's the purpose of improving your technical skill? It's to, you know, use it to perform, to test it, right? Test your metal, you know, in, in an arena against other people who, you know, at least from all outside, you know, perspectives. You know, chess is quite an equalizing game. You know, it's where you're able to have a 5-year-old, 6-year-old who has shown great promise, you know, in the game at a young age through really great coaching and maybe some innate ability and deliberate practice where they take down a 60-year-old, you know, like a whole, like David and Goliath type, you know, story. And, and of course the world is just, they love stories like that, right? Sort of the, the small guy, you know, you know, taking out the big guy. And, and so it's such an equalizing game, but what's not really equal is the process or the journey, you know, that the players are experiencing in that game. And there's so many other factors, I think that it impacts that, that could probably be captured where we're very focused. When I say we, I mean the field of chess, right? And, and then of course, outside of that fishbowl, you know, the world, we're very interested in looking at chess as this very cerebral, you know, cognitive, engaging, intellectual game.

Jonathan Singler [00:17:33] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:17:33] It's very much presented as like, you're good at chess, then you're probably smart, right? Like, you're, you're strategic or something. Well,

Jonathan Singler [00:17:39] Yeah. So if I were to ask you, you know, what, who do you think of when you think of a chess player and what sort of qualities do you think a chess player has?

Vance Crowe [00:17:48] I was so formed by that movie, searching for Bobby Fischer. Yes, yes. That I have that image is what comes to mind. And then, you know, the person I played the most chess with is my father-in-law. He's exceptionally strategic and like always just a step ahead, just, just like one tiny step. So I do think of it as a very strategic thing, but also like intelligence, right? It, it seems like an equal sign between those two things.

Jonathan Singler [00:18:13] It does. So I have probably one of the more unpopular opinions about chess. And it, I think it comes from a mix between, you know, that maybe the social cultural perspective of chess, right? I mean, chess is a very cultural game outside the us I think in the US we have about, with the US Chess Federation, the national governing body of competitive chess, we, we have I think around maybe a hundred thousand members. It fluctuates month to month, about 50,000, maybe 48 to 52%, somewhere in there are scholastic. So K through 12, the rest are, you know, adults. But if you go to, you know, other countries, there's hundreds of thousands, you know, of people who are playing chess, you know, a much larger population from a competitive, you know, standpoint where it's been embedded historically within their culture. The, the idea of like chess and intelligence, there's a really interesting study, I think it was called this chess Need Intelligence. And to give a little backstory, I guess maybe about some chess research, the guy, one of the guys who developed the IQ test, Alfred Binet, and I think there's a couple other researchers with some different models of it in the late 18 hundreds, was very interested, you know, in sort of defining what intelligence is. We flash forward another 130 years now, we're like, okay, it's not just cognitive intelligence, it's like emotional intelligence, right?

Jonathan Singler [00:19:46] Or other areas that intelligence could be shown or demonstrated in that maybe is not in the realm of test taking Okay. Or academic performance. So how does this relate back to chess? Well, Binet was very interested in chess players' ability to play at a very high level, more specifically to how chess masters could play blindfolded and recall positions on a board and so forth. So, so at this time, you know, chess research is kind of beginning, and this is, you know, we're going into the early 19 hundreds. So chess players at that time, their feats of making money was not just from tournament play, but more of sort of putting on magic shows, right? Which would be, Hey, let me play five people blindfolded, or let me do a simul, which is where you walk around the room and play 30 people and you, you just destroy them on the board, right? And obviously from a skill gap, right? It's probably more than likely. So if I were to say, you know, face one of the top 30 or 40 players in the world, in a simul, it doesn't matter if there's a hundred players in the room, it's one game, one game, one game, one game, one game, right? And odds are they're probably playing, you know, theory that they know. So the study started pointing towards intelligence. And this idea that memory and pattern recognition were two of the qualities that were allowing chess players to perform at a very high level.

Jonathan Singler [00:21:19] We look at research crossing through the 19 hundreds. Research really hasn't changed regarding that. In fact, it's sort of improved in the sense of, you know, some studies, I think 1973, which was about chess skill, going back to the intelligence and what was sort of needed to obtain mastery. So we start looking at some of those 10,000 hour rules that we hear about where, you know, if you spend 10,000 thousand hours, you know, in an area, you should be an expert of that area. Well, we also have seen research that, you know, suggests it can be less, it can be more what kind of depends is the context of that practice. And so the range for chess players, not only was it from 10,000 to 50,000 hours as far as a range to develop mastery in it, it included approximately about 50,000 chunks of information pattern recognition. So if I were to show you one position, maybe it's a famous game, you know, as an amateur player, you'd be like, oh yes, this was, you know, the game of Nigel Short. And you know, Timman where, you know, short plays this H three to H four pawn move, you know, black plays H five, and then white just moves their king over the next six or seven moves, just walks it up the board. And in the position, you know, everything was locked down. And the only really real path to convert the game was the king needed to be up here for Checkmate, because all the other pieces were in the proper place.

Jonathan Singler [00:22:57] So as a, you know, going back to pattern recognition and checking, you know, we can either recall master games or maybe theoretical positions of working upon end games to, you know, convert our games. So those two abilities, memory recall, pattern recognition, and obviously some deliberate practice allows you to perform at a high level. Well, I have a question. Is that really what intelligence is? Is it just pattern recognition and memory recall? Well, a lot of our education system in the us, you know, is focused on pattern recognition and memory recall for test taking. So, you know, depending on how some of these studies are developed, the design of them, the methods, you know, and, and the findings, it's good for business to conduct research that, you know, highlights maybe some benefits to playing chess intelligence, academic performance in children in K through 12 who experienced chess programming versus maybe students who didn't receive chess programming. But this is the unpopular opinion on the intelligence part, which is, there's plenty of studies that have with, you know, up to 5,000 participants in this study where there's a lack of causative findings that it's chest that is improving intelligence. So going back, does, does chess need intelligence?

Jonathan Singler [00:24:28] The question really is, well, is chess increasing intelligence? We know there's complex cognitive processes involved, but so is music, so are sports, right? I mean, look at football, very complex plays, you know, there's a lot of psychology involved, you know, in the moment, very quick decision making, pattern recognition, memory recall of place. So it might have something to do with maybe performance and mastery. But what about chess? You know, if, if it's not increasing intelligence, is it intelligent people that are coming to the game?

Vance Crowe [00:25:05] Yeah. Which one is it? Is it that their intelligent people play chess or chess makes people int intelligence?

Jonathan Singler [00:25:11] Absolutely. So, you know, I think that's a great question that the field wants to solve, right? Because it's, it's almost, it's justification for putting chess into schools, right? If chess is gonna improve your mathematics or your, you know, literacy scores, which it can, it's a tool, it's a medium. And we've seen that through chess evolving from just a sport as an afterschool program to now we can use chess as a transversal tool to build other competencies or meeting standards or objectives in other academic domains for children. But, you know, is that it, is it all that, you know, chess can really offer? And so, you know, if chess isn't, say, causative of academic performance increase, then it just kind of puts a question mark on the field, which isn't good for business, which is, you know, how great of this, or how great is this to, you know, for children to pick up as early as possible? So, you know, there's, there's those abilities we talked about, right? Literacy for children, time management, critical thinking, which the question is what is critical thinking? What does that look like? But I'm not denoting that chess has its place to build cognition. We have great research on the neuroscience side for dementia and A DHD and depression, but it's very difficult to conduct experimental research on children in an educational setting, in a development stage where children are learning from everything they're learning.

Vance Crowe [00:26:46] Yeah. It's hard to say whether or not it's the chess that made them that way, or if it was just a part of the overall picture. Now, the reason that you're so interested in this is because you're getting a PhD in the education of children vis-a-vis chess. Like how do you describe this

Jonathan Singler [00:27:01] Sort of Yeah, so I attend Webster University, third year doctoral student. So it's a doctor of education practice based, but with a dissertation. So it's nice to get some theoretical learning. I'm clearly reading research, which is nice. 'cause I'm realizing, I know, you know, less than I thought, which is great right there. There's so much literature out there. But my, my focus, you know, for the field of chess, you know, I've helped design a program at the university with some very incredible colleagues, some top level chess names in the field. And the purpose of, you know, my own academic journey, right? And trying to fuse it in with chess, my, my undergrad research on chess, my master's research on chess has led to at least for myself, you know, using education as a vehicle to complete the projects that I felt was needed in the field. And right now it's culminated to trying to build a higher education path for the field of chess. And it's, it's coming from two angles. It's coming from, I wouldn't say three angles, 'cause of passion being one of them. Something I wanted to experience, which was to pursue chess in college outside of sport, but to learn the field. But the, the two angles is really coming from, first off, you know, we have a lot of chess programs across the us. The US chess is very focused on scholastic programming, K through 12, which goes back to chess board and some chess and education, which is that transversal tool.

Jonathan Singler [00:28:34] And, but we, we don't really have, say, quality control of what these educators know in terms of what they're teaching for these children. So are they teaching chess from just sport? Are they just teaching chess to infuse it into the daily classroom of mathematics and science for stem? Or are they, you know, trying to teach about the field of chess? So as students are learning how to play the game, they're learning, you know, historical anecdotes of chess players and, you know, political stories between countries and, you know, maybe the more romanticized areas of chess that involve, you know, social and cultural per respects to help them really understand that, you know, chess is a very global game despite its local application in their school. So that's the one angle which is developing chess educators specifically to, who has a background in sport research, education, all these different areas that exist. The second prong, you know, comes to this, you know, and albeit, I mean, it's, it's a terrible visualization, but, you know, we're trying to in include chess in children's education at as young as possible, right? So we talked about earlier, 3, 4, 5, 6 years old. Soon as they get into kindergarten, most schools are having some sort of chess club or chess program. But what happens if they develop a, you know, a, a very strong affectionate relationship with the game for themselves, and, you know, and it becomes, say, a bonding tool with their peers, and they grow in skill and performance.

Jonathan Singler [00:30:22] Well, their odds of reaching mastery, you know, is, is pretty slim still. They could become a pretty good chess player, but there's a lot of context that's missing in that path, that journey. But all of them are going to the same point, which is a very long climb, a very steep climb on just this cliff. You know, we're, we're pushing children up to pursue chess. We're saying chess is great for your, your child, which there's research that shows it. Obviously there's conflicting research in the field that, you know, it, it may not be as causative as we think, which we'll get to in a minute about some different research. But we're pushing them up for this climb. And this cliff, you know, has a drop off. It's after 12th grade. It's where do they go with chess after they've built such a profound relationship with the game that, you know, there's based on at least national championships with universities, you're talking less than 70 universities that have a competitive chess team. Many of those universities, not what we would call scholastic, or not scholastic, excuse me, scholarship, you know, programs which are paying for students to study at that university in a different subject, but be part of the team. And the professional opportunities after that are not very guaranteed.

Jonathan Singler [00:31:58] I know for myself, it's been entrepreneurial work, right? Trying to develop skill sets outside of the chess board that can bring back to the chess board and to communities. But if your goal is to learn chess as a sport to increase your performance, you know, you have to really look at both the odds of it, you know, the practicality of building, you know, adult stability of, you know, earning a living and the educational opportunities that are there after K through 12. So,

Vance Crowe [00:32:30] So what I'm hearing you say is that the, if somebody gets really, really into chess and they start climbing up that mountain and they're going all the way up, it eventually they hit a point where it doesn't really matter if you're really, really good at chess because the options are become a professional chess player, become a teacher, and how, or I don't know if there's another option in between there, but it seems like you could put a whole lot of effort into mastering something that the, that the energy that is put into that chess board doesn't create value in the world. So it's hard to derive an income from it.

Jonathan Singler [00:33:08] Well, it's up to you to sort of derive that value. So what do I mean by that? You know, there's definitely benefits from spending so much time mastering or attempting to master and understand anything. I mean, whether it's a sport, whether it's

Vance Crowe [00:33:26] Painting or drawing or

Jonathan Singler [00:33:27] Painting, drawing, database

Vance Crowe [00:33:28] Management, anything,

Jonathan Singler [00:33:30] Somebody who's interested in stock trading, right? Like, I mean, there, there's, the question comes down to is what can you take from it and translate it into other areas of your life, you know, for learning chess for the sake of sport and performing and playing at a master level. Clearly there's money at the top level of chess, but you know, when you look at, say, maybe the top a hundred players who are making 30 K or more a year from just competition, and there's say like 1600 grand masters in the world, which is that, that highest certification level or title level, you know, then you start looking sort of into the context of things. So how are these players making a living authorship, right? Developing courses, curriculum building academies, having a day job outside of chess. This

Vance Crowe [00:34:23] Is really similar to, so my wife was a really elite level swimmer and, you know, even got to try out for the Olympics. And you know, we have this tension in raising our daughters because she talks about the value of having mastery, right?

Jonathan Singler [00:34:38] Yes. Of,

Vance Crowe [00:34:39] Of like, you know, the, the really being great at something, the experience of, of what it is to know when you're standing on the blocks, the only people that can be on the blocks with you are people that have put in serious time into going back and forth.

Jonathan Singler [00:34:53] They know what it takes

Vance Crowe [00:34:53] Back and forth. And, and then I sit there and say, well, I, I like the concept of mastery, but the price of mastery is very, very high. And that I, I look at, I look at like, where was this? How could you apply the lessons there? And you could say, well, the lessons we can apply is, I learned work life balance because I had to both be a student and swim. I learned, you know, how to deal with the nervousness of things. But there's definitely a trade off because the number of skills that she has are really limited to swimming. And then the ancillary things that it taught as opposed to my kind of renaissance education of which mastery came to virtually nothing.

Jonathan Singler [00:35:33] Yeah, absolutely. Was it like the jack of all trades, you know, kind

Vance Crowe [00:35:36] Of master of none. Yeah,

Jonathan Singler [00:35:37] Absolutely. And you know, that, that's such a great point, you know, and touching on what, what is the point of introducing chess to children or pushing for mastery from a parent perspective? You know, I'm, you know,

Vance Crowe [00:35:52] Did your kid, did your parents, you, you got good at chess as a young age, would your parents push you into it?

Jonathan Singler [00:35:57] No, actually it is quite opposite. So first off, I don't have children of my own, so, but I've, I've gotten to work with so many children as well as their parents in developing, you know, a relationship actually even between them in terms of their chess journey for myself and learning chess. I first started in fourth and fifth grade was introduced to Harry Potter chess, which man, Jeremy Silman, J.K. Rowling, creating that chess scene inspired, I mean, so many people and for myself, and had they have not, I mean, I don't know that the magic of chess for me would've, you know, been there just to visualize it in a way in which you have such a story arc of not just wizards and magic at a school playing chess, but you know, this idea of sacrificing yourself, you know, a kid sacrificing themselves, which albeit they didn't have to, they could have won the game a move sooner had they had sacrificed Harry. But, you know, Harry is, you know, saved by his best friend to continue on his journey, you know, and, and when you see that kind of storyboard or arc, you know, which, you know, it's language of a fourth grader who doesn't really understand at that time, but they just see this, you know, incredible story, man. It was captivating and it really characterized, you know, this two dimensional, so, you know, and three dimensional chessboard to something that's so creative and interactive. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:37:19] Instead of it just being like, Hey, I'm moving these blocks around on the board, that scene in Harry Potter where they're like, I'm gonna jump out in front of here. And, and really the, I thought the visual imagery of having the chess pieces fight one another,

Jonathan Singler [00:37:34] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:37:34] Probably brought that to life

Jonathan Singler [00:37:35] In the mind of children. It, it did. And so, you know, going back to, you know, the question that you had asked about, you know, sort of my journey, you know, where it started with chess and, and parent support. So I actually had, you know, it, it's funny, it's interesting when, you know, you, you grow up and maybe there's aspects of your life that you find difficult, right? And, and, but it, it becomes so normalized for you because it's your experience. So maybe what your experience is, you know, pretty normal. So I actually didn't have the support for chess at that time. You know, I kind of played at school, but chess really wasn't, you know, reintroduced into my life until about high school, ninth, 10th grade by a friend. And, you know, at that time, you know, I think there was a bit more pressure for me to pursue sports, you know, something maybe more gender based, right? You're male, you know, and, you know, these are kind of like the areas that you should probably be pursuing sports in. And, and so this idea of kinda like sitting there all day staring at a wooden chess board, you know, which Perceivably doesn't have anything to do with, you know, anywhere else, but it's kinda like, as we're having this chess conversation right now, we're impacting, you know, communities outside of this conversation. And I mean, we're here in St. Louis, and you know, you can be playing a game here, but people are watching it, you know, and being, you know, involved and maybe enamored and inspired by just a single game. So for myself, you know, my relationship with chess actually began with that escapism and losing, I mean, well over a thousand games for more than a year to, you know, my best friend.

Jonathan Singler [00:39:14] And, you know, that journey kind of culminating, you know, from experiencing things at home, having that internal dialogue that I was bringing to the chess board and when I finally, you know, got my first draw. So I had lost thousands of games, right? When I get to that draw, it was by accident from my opponent in which they were playing blindfold. You know, go figure. It's not really much of a victory when your opponent, you know, accidentally makes a, a mistake. But they weren't, you know, looking at the board. But for me, it, it was obviously about winning the game and trying to figure out what it was that was causing me not to win the game. I mean, take your odds. I mean, even against a world champion, if you play a thousand games, you should at least be able to win one, you know, somewhere in there, get

Vance Crowe [00:40:07] It draw. And it really, you're saying that is literal, when you said that originally, I thought you were being

Jonathan Singler [00:40:11] Hyper pole, literally. Well, no, well over a thousand games, I mean, we were, so we played across the whole school year, like every single morning we were playing anywhere from like eight to like 15 games.

Vance Crowe [00:40:20] Man, there has to be a spring that just like went loose in your brain to very, very few people could face losing a thousand games. I think the research shows if, if you're in a conflict with somebody, that's a game you have to win at least 30%. Otherwise most people give up. Yeah,

Jonathan Singler [00:40:36] Absolutely. You know, it's, I think that there's context. So, you know, it's funny, anytime like I think of statistics, I'm like, well, what's not being said here? Right? So, you know, I, you know, wasn't you ridiculed in the process? Although, you know, there's definitely trash talk, you know, and chess back and forth and, you know, 'cause there's egos involved in that emotional part of ourselves that want to win. So, you know, for me, I think, I think I was very fortunate, right, talking about that difficulty of like, the home life growing up, you know, the, the difficulties that I had faced were psychological and emotional and sometimes physical and, you know, at a very age, I mean five, six years old, you know, I had to sort of figure out that internal dialogue for myself. And I was starting to rationalize that, okay, there's this external experience that I'm facing, right? That I'm not in control of, like at all. And there's a set of rules and guidelines that I kind of have to follow, otherwise there's consequences to these. I mean, very drastic ones. But then I rationalized or realized, and you know, children, when, when you give the, you know, when, when they take an ACEs test, which is like adverse childhood experiences test, I'm not a psychologist. I'm very much into psychology, especially with chess, especially with internal dialogue that we all have, that just is never spoken, right? But it's sometimes coordinated through action, you know, taking an ACEs test, like scored well beyond, you know, the range of like, okay, this, this kid is probably troubled, right?

Jonathan Singler [00:42:15] And what

Vance Crowe [00:42:16] Kind of questions are on those? How does that even work?

Jonathan Singler [00:42:18] Well, it it has to do with, some of them are, and maybe it's changed since, you know, I was looking at it as an undergrad student in some of the site courses I was taking. But, you know, looking at it, it's more of questions regarding, say, home life experiences. Maybe it has to do with, it could be like parent alcoholism, it could be how the parent is interacting with a child in discipline and things like that. Physical abuse, like,

Vance Crowe [00:42:41] Ah, and so this is assessing how many things did you as a child have to how many endure,

Jonathan Singler [00:42:46] Right? Exactly. And

Vance Crowe [00:42:47] Kinda like IQ where it's like, ah, this, this may not be exactly right, but it's gonna give us a proximal measure of how many things this kid

Jonathan Singler [00:42:53] Faced. And I mean, with any test, right? There's limitations to things and there's also, right, there's recollection of our memory for what we think we experienced versus maybe what was experienced. But at least in my memory, it was a very difficult, you know, process growing up. And so at that age, I had recognized the difference between say, you know, you and I are talking, but I'm, I have this other me that's in my head. Didn't, didn't know what it was, but it was this very freeing feeling of that there was a part of me that was in a sense, untouchable, right? This, this monologue, this thought process, the emotions maybe that I was able, I was not able to display outwardly, but I could inwardly. So I really got to know myself at a very young age. And so, as unfortunate say, like, as the experiences were, and like, I wouldn't wish it on anybody. It was there for me. And I think probably kind of speeding up to my process of going back through, you know, losing so many games and trying to figure out, is this a theoretical problem? You know, not having support maybe to pursue chess, you know, from, you know, parental or home life support, maybe trying to develop faster. It then just became an aha process of like, man, there's so much that's impacting me right now emotionally on this chess board that, you know, I, I discuss this a lot about it not being a game, but it was a self psychotherapeutic tool for me.

Jonathan Singler [00:44:33] And before that it was cross country running, right? Before that it was another, you know, tool. And there's obviously that line of escapism and then actually being in that flow state, being very present with what you're doing. And that transition point I think happened for me in high school a little bit. And I then I had recognized, well, if I experienced these things, and I'm thinking they're normal, they're clearly not normal by any means for what I experienced, you know, with detail. But there's probably other people that are having these monologues that are having aspects of their life that are just coming into the moves that they're making, how they even like, visualize or characterize aspects of the game, such as, you know, identifying the queen, although being the most valuable piece, but something they just can't sacrifice, you know, and seeing it maybe with gender and, you know, maybe there, there's, you know, studies and sort of psychological maybe fruition, you know, perspectives on chess pieces and so forth of like identifying as the mother and the king as the father. And, and all of these aspects that, you know, are hard to define and research quantitatively, but qualitatively, right? What's the experience of the person at the chess board? And I think that's where I had made that connection. That's I think where that 5-year-old me in coming into a game such as chess, it could have been anything else.

Jonathan Singler [00:46:07] I mean, it could have been shoots and ladders, you know, or maybe I could have been just a monster monopoly player.

Vance Crowe [00:46:13] Well, I think I like what you're saying in particular around psychology, because I was actually just talking with a good friend of mine, Rob Long, he's a great chess player who we were talking about our challenges around psychology, right? That somebody will be like, Hey, I'm gonna go see, I'm gonna go talk with somebody. And my question is somebody, if they're gonna go see a therapist or a counselor, I always say, what's their orientation? And if that person tells you, oh, I don't have an orientation, I take from all the fields, I'm always like, whoa, whoa, you don't want to go there because you need to have a hypothesis. You need to have a structure for how does the mind work? And really, once you start digging into that, most of the hypotheses that people have about how the mind works are wrong, but the fact that you have a structure gives you something to play with chess actually gives you that structure in a way that's, I think, better than probably most psychological schools.

Jonathan Singler [00:47:06] It's, I mean, it, it goes back to chess being about relationships, right? And the one that's I think kind of forgotten is about the relationship with the self, right? And so, you know, if you want to go back to the mastery dialogue, right? If you're wanting, and, and like I'm not a guru on psychology, I'm not, you know, a guru in sports psychology. I, you know, in terms of taking from people, you know, when you start listening to, you know, these people that have demonstrated backgrounds of expertise in psychology and research, you know, and you start listening to it and you're starting to identify with, you know, aspects of it, and you're trying to figure out like, how does this apply, you know, in different areas, you know, you start to see that, you know, from maybe a, a gaming perspective, right? We're very much, you know, in an MMO right? A massive multiplayer online living experience, but you're still playing an RPG, right? Your daily decisions, your pursuit of mastery, your, what you're bringing to the table in terms of your psychology and your experiences in life and how it's impacting that journey for you. It's either stunting you or it's helping you progress. The question is, is what is it that you've experienced or what is it that you're experiencing in the moment that you're able to leverage to move forward? Look, you know, I've, you know, for myself over the board, I'm still considered an amateur, you know, despite having been involved in chess for 15 years.

Jonathan Singler [00:48:37] And I think the best sort of advice I got last fall from, you know, a fellow colleague who plays here at St. Louis chess club, incredible player, you know, in the amateur, you know, area of chess. But man, so much wisdom. And he said, you know, 'cause we, we'd finally gotten to play a game after many years of, you know, talking about playing a game and it happened to be over the board in a rated event. We were walking, you know, after our game that we played. And he goes, you know, I know you're really worried about trying to improve your chess, you know, here and pursuing mastery. But he's like, you know, I kind of realized for myself that, and I wish I could like give, you know, his, his enthusiasm when he said this, but he was like, man, he's like, if I die being a 1600 rated player, I'm gonna be the best 1600 player that you know has ever lived, right? And I'm gonna be the best version of me in that. Like, there's no other chess player like me. I think Magnus Carlsen famously said when he was interviewed a few years back, like, who's your favorite chess player? And he just goes, me, I'm my favorite chess player. Now granted, he's shown the world, you know, even recently giving up the world championship title, you know, not even contending for it. He realizes he doesn't need the title in order to be considered the best in the world, you know, which is what that title would mean. But, you know, going back to that psychology piece, that process piece, how connected are you to yourself in playing the game of chess?

Jonathan Singler [00:50:12] And what is translating off the board onto the board? And then what are you taking back off the board? You had mentioned sort of the swimming, the mastery, right? There's obviously a lot of skills that it takes to master swimming, and rightfully so, those skills are being developed outside of the pool. The pool's the easy part. You go in there, you swim, you work out hard. You maybe have some, you know, mindset processes in terms of trying to get through those barriers of like, ah, God, I'm so tired, or I'm not feeling my best today. Get in the pool, right? Swim. But after, I think for people who've achieved mastery, those translatable skills, you know, connecting this back to maybe even the research of academic performance, I think we're just looking at it wrong. We're, we're so focused on, you know, comparing students and labeling them as possibly more successful in life because they scored slightly higher on an academic test. Talk about denoting the value that they have as a human being in any other realm outside of that. Maybe it's timing, maybe it's the teachers that have, you know, digressed them or stunted them. Maybe it's their home life that is impacting their ability to progress. So, you know, I'm, I know I'm speaking a lot about this, but there, there's so many contextualizing factors regarding going back to that monologue, going back to that personal experience in the game of chess that I don't think it's talked about enough.

Jonathan Singler [00:51:45] And to sort of kinda like end on this little, you know, monologue here about this. There's a book by Sasha Chapin called All the Wrong Moves. And man, I had spoke to some colleagues about it after I received the book, and I read it just to kind of get some, you know, thoughts about it. And many of them were quite upset with it. Kinda like they were quite upset that the fact that there's plenty of research that says we, we don't know how causative chess is, you know, to justify it in schools, at least from a research standpoint, we can see a child engaging and having fun and, and you know, things like that emotional regulation we can see without testing them. But all the wrong moves was about this guy's journey to pursue chess, you know, as an adult again, in life. 'cause I think they were introduced to it, you know, early, and they obviously, they, we talked about the lack of support for children, for a longevity in chess, but he comes back to it later, becomes obsessed. And you know, we tend to tell people, you know, you need a balance in life because things may not work out, et cetera, but a balance doesn't create mastery, right? So you need, you need to accept the sacrifices that are gonna come from pursuing mastery through obsession. You may be the greatest swimmer or chess player in the world, but your personal life, maybe other aspects of your life just aren't as developed.

Jonathan Singler [00:53:17] And you know what, there's no need to judge people for it. It's, it's their life. It's their RPG, it's their, you know, sacrifices that they made to achieve what they wanted. You can't really get both. You have to do one or the other and then do the other. Right. Either set yourself up with security to pursue mastery later in life, or, or if you have the support, pursue it early to set up a life that you can well round out yourself later in the journey.

Vance Crowe [00:53:42] Do you think you can, do you think you have the full human experience if you've never mastered something?

Jonathan Singler [00:53:49] I don't think anybody gets through life with the full experience.

Vance Crowe [00:53:53] Okay.

Jonathan Singler [00:53:53] You know, you know, tying back to, you know, a quick thing on all the wrong moves there, that book, you know, I, I recommend everybody to read it because it talks about, you know, the question of, you know, is chess obsession causing negative impacts on life outside of the chess board? You know, or is it maybe, as we talked about the intelligence of people gravitating to chess, you know, is chess providing this realm to unknowingly work on themselves? And so you, you know, I think there's, there's definitely questions there that may not, going back to research it, it may be very difficult to identify, unless it's anecdotal, qualitative, narrative based research to get as many stories as you possibly can, as depth and possible. So going back to this mastery and like sort of full experience in life, you know, I, you know, I think Jordan Peterson, you know, Dr. Peterson talks about, you know, in a lecture, you gotta pick your sacrifice at some point. And, you know, I know even for myself being 18, 19, you know, being homeless for a time period, leaving home, you know, to get out of the situations I was in to, you know, sort of journey into the world, the, the messianic years, if you wanna call it that, to figure out who I am and what am I gonna contribute to the world being, you know, almost 30 now, it's like, huh, what a silly question to have at 18 or 19 because you, the context is very different.

Jonathan Singler [00:55:38] There's a lot of life experience to even be had and, you know, and who I am at 30, you know, going back, you know, was somebody who I probably would've dreamed of being, and I'm not where I want to be. I don't think I've experienced the full experience, even just with the process of that I've, I've gone through, you know, I kind of took the approach or the route of yes, I, I want chess mastery and, you know, maybe next year I'll, I'll pursue it a bit more when I graduate. But, you know, I had realized there were other elements of chess that, you know, by no means am I an expert in any domain, whether tournament directing or organizing events. But I've, I've done it so much and worked in communities and curriculum writing so much that I found a different value in it. And seeing that value in these communities, seeing lives, you know, transform through it, whether it's people going through AA and building programs in that area or say chess for vets, you know, senior vets who hadn't played in 30 or 40 years and came back to the game and had apprehension. You know, because chess is a intellectual game. And, and just seeing sort of this, you know, experience come back to these people almost as if they're childlike, who went out into the world to gain more experiences beyond the board. Like there's way more life experience outside of chess. And you know, there, I think there's a quote of probably Paul Morphy, one of the greatest American chess players ever. And, you know, and other chess players who've basically said, you know, to master chess or be good at chess is a waste of life.

Jonathan Singler [00:57:16] Because there's all of these other experiences that, you know, maybe we define as like, culturally important that get missed out or say, what's the word? Maybe traditionally or ritualistically or even tribally that we experience, you know, here in the US when you're 17, 18, that's kind of the sign of, you know, you're on your path, on your own. You go to college, mom and dad are kind of there, but you know, maybe not so much there anymore. And, and so we have these, you know, sort of milestones in life that, you know, for this full experience, right? In the context of our own little world here in the US or somewhere else in St. Louis versus say maybe in India or say, you know, Mongolia or some of these other areas that you know, are developed, but then, you know, differently developed with different practices, different context to what a full life is.

Vance Crowe [00:58:20] You know, it's funny that I, I, I've spoken with a few chess people, one of 'em, whom is the president of Webster University. Julian Schuster,

Jonathan Singler [00:58:27] Yes, yes. Big supporter of chess. So

Vance Crowe [00:58:29] He and I ha have had some great conversations, but multiple times he said something that's really similar to what you're saying, which is, Hey, people that are really engaged in chess, there's more to life than chess. And I think to the guy that's driving his truck right now, from one place to another, this seems obvious to him, right? It's like, of course, like, who, who could live their life around this chess? What is it about the game that becomes so encompassing that the people that are like you or Julian that are close to it, realize like, wait a second, there's a black hole here, and you gotta be, you gotta be a little bit careful.

Jonathan Singler [00:59:05] You know what's funny about that black hole is, I mean, sometimes you get out of it, right? I know for myself, I was obsessed. I was definitely addicted to chess, like in high school, so much so that, you know, I, I wanted to be done with education, right? I was showing up to classes, my work done ahead of time, sitting there playing chess, you know, this, this abyss that I had kind of jumped into, fell into, right? Because it was a form of escapism. And then internal dialogue, it was that tool that, you know, we discussed to where I'm sitting in class, teachers are then, you know, upset that, you know, I'm pulling out a chess boarding class, you know, while they're giving a lecture, which as a professor now, I kind of understand. But, you know, for me as a student, I was like, well, I already did the work. I'm ahead, you know, like, I'm ready for the exam. Give it to me today, right? I'm living for chess at this point, you know, as a teenager. And, you know, going back to, you know, Sasha's book about all the wrong moves. I mean, he went into the black hole as an adult, which had a very different experience in, in terms of, you know, health effects and mental, like mental health or physical effects, and what he was willing to maybe endure, right? To pursue chess over in India, you know, and going to some of the most remote places to play chess at the cost of his health, getting sick and, and so forth. And so

Vance Crowe [01:00:31] What do you think that pulls people in? Is it, I mean, is it, I mean, it'd be very rare if we were sitting here talking about your shoots and ladders obsession. You would be a crazy person, right?

Jonathan Singler [01:00:40] Right. Well, I mean, it's contextual, right? So for me, like I definitely, you know, had mine, the escapism and then obviously finding that it was its own world in itself. Maybe I was a master of that world, right? Maybe the accountability for the good and the bad, you know, that occurred for somebody else. I mean, maybe it's imitation. Maybe they saw a chess celebrity, say Bobby Fischer, who, you know, created a big, you know, chess boom in the seventies, you know, beating Soviet chess against all odds and pretty spectacularly as well. Incredible games to, you know, inspiring a generation in the seventies from the sixties and seventies to pursue it. And sort of maybe because they play chess, overcome odds in life, you know, outside the board. And so, I, I don't really know that I can speak to, you know, everybody's experiences. I do know that many of them, you know, when I talk to my students or say even those parents who are interested in possibly pushing their kids into that cliff, and maybe that black holes, you know, on the other side. 'cause there's really not too many places to go at the moment, you know, outside of entrepreneurial work. But, you know, it's, it, it's a really, I think it's a really great question, you know, what pulls them in. But it, it might go back to the what are the stereotypes, right? That are with it. Well, chess is going to make you smarter. Well, if you believe that and you play chess, do you feel smarter?

Jonathan Singler [01:02:12] Probably. Probably. Yeah. Like, yeah, probably. You know, so I, you know, it's,

Vance Crowe [01:02:17] It's very, and if you're just smoking every kid in your high school, like, and this is

Jonathan Singler [01:02:20] Giving you

Vance Crowe [01:02:21] A either a reputation or, or an internal feeling that sure, you're able to put yourself up. I you're,

Jonathan Singler [01:02:27] You're the king, right? On the board. And clearly now off the board, I mean, even if people are like, ah, you're a nerd, or you're that chess guy, you're like, you know, what am that chess?

Vance Crowe [01:02:36] Yeah. Like,

Jonathan Singler [01:02:36] You can

Vance Crowe [01:02:36] Say whatever you want, but I can still win.

Jonathan Singler [01:02:38] Exactly. You know? And so, you know, I think that might also have a little bit of play in there, which is, you know, why are we choosing to do the things that we do? And, you know, I think some, another area of like psychology, like I'm very interested in is identity, you know? And from, from the idea of how, like, from what identity are we labeled with? What identity do we label ourselves with? And you know, what about it is, are we making, you know, decisions and choosing behavior through, because it aligns with it, because it feels good, because like, we know ourselves, or because, you know, you've demonstrated maybe expertise in an area, so then, you know, you've fixated to that. 'cause maybe for example, it's funny, Alan Watts, you know, incredible lecturer in the sixties and seventies going around to universities discussing, you know, eastern and western philosophy and religion. And, you know, he makes this, he has this really great lecture on, you know, the real self and identity. And, you know, he basically tells the students that the person standing before them is not the real Alan Watts, it's the Alan Watts that gets paid to do it. You know, Alan Watts knows and does here, but he is definitely not the Alan Watts who goes home. And he is definitely not the Alan Watts who goes and does something else in life. And, and so I think on one hand, you know, there is the, the benefit of, right, getting some quick expertise or mastery, or finding strength in a domain that aligns with maybe values and characteristics you have.

Jonathan Singler [01:04:11] Maybe people telling you you're really smart and you're really good, right? I mean, that feels good. I wanna do more of it, of course, right? Because it's, it's validation, you know, even if maybe you lost the meaning in what you're doing, but now you must be doing something right because people like you. Well, I think, you know, if you, with the labeling, you know, aspect and maybe some of that validation, where is it coming from externally or, you know, internally, that voice that comes with it, I think could be some context as far as the attraction of chess, right? The labeling of being smart, the labeling being of, you know, for example, if I am, you know, say I'm going to the gym and I'm working out and I've got a great routine and my nutrition's on point, and, you know, it's like I'm a bodybuilder, right? And it sounds good. It feels good, right? And then what about those moments or those days in which you don't feel good? What's your label then? Right? How do you feel about yourself? You know, do you have the soul the same heightened sense? What about when you compete, right? You're stepping into the arena to put yourself to, you know, possibly humble yourself to your knees, you know, in humiliation, in checking that ego to lose. I mean, there's, there's only first, second and third place, you know, we kind of understand every, every other place is participation at that point, you know, you know, and obviously there's, there's one champion, there's one winner.

Jonathan Singler [01:05:44] What do you do in those moments? How do you feel about yourself? What do you labor yourself as? Now? Are you a loser? You know, are you somebody who, you know, isn't smart enough to play chess? So I think going back to that, you know, abyss, that poll, you know, there's a reason as to why that poll is there. I don't know what that reason is for everybody, but I know plenty of people who have left chess because of the negative aspects of it, which is that obsession quickly sets in. And, and we see it, for example, even at the most shallow of levels on this conversation, which is bullet chess, right? You, you know, there's a lot of ego involved when you play chess, right? The trash talking, I'm gonna win. You know, like, I'm gonna beat you down, you know, I'm the better chess player. And in bullet chess, like it is bullet chess. Bullet chess is like one minute, you know, two minute type games on the clock. You might see that usually in like, chess, hustling parks, like over in DC or things like that where you can find videos on YouTube of, you know, just people kind of egging each other back and on, you know? And you know, it's part of the culture. Is it part of sportsmanship kind of hard to teach kids? Yes, it's part of it and, or no, it's not. But you know, but with bullet chess, for example, it's very high speed, right? You're trying to finish a game within a minute to two minutes where we see people sit for hours, you know, six, seven hours at the top level playing a game.

Jonathan Singler [01:07:17] You know, going back to the question, is this really worth it? You know, I've got other things to do in life. Pick up the kids, you know, or, you know, it's time away from the family. All these things you, but you know, with bullet chess, it's part of playing chess, right? Going back to the emotions, there's the physiological responses. You know, when you're worried, you're scared, you know, you have anxiety, which is also very similar to excitement, you know, increased heart rate, you know, you kind of feel the little jitters, you know? And, and with bullet, because you're under so much time pressure, you're moving so quickly, you're thinking so fast. You're trying to get into like a very quick flow state of, find a move, find a tactic, make a move, et cetera. It can become very, very addicting. And you play one game, you're like, again, again, again, right? When you lose. Or for some people they're like, I'm done. You know, like, the loss was enough, you know? And, and so I think depending on the relationship that like students, or at least you know, students that I coach, you know, are involved with, or even maybe life lifelong learners, you know, there's different types of obsessions there. And I think one part of it is the ego in terms of trying to get that win, trying to get that label. And then the other side of it, you know, is probably much more primitive, which is, I want to win. You know? And you know, and I think when you kind of take a step back, at least my approach to chess is like, you know, I'm, I'm competing this Sunday with the team. Of course my job is to win, like every single game I possibly can.

Jonathan Singler [01:08:49] But what about those moments in between, you know, that I'm experiencing? How am I keeping myself in check? How am I labeling, labeling myself in the process or viewing myself, you know, am I, you know, being a bad teammate for losing three games in a row, which happened this past weekend, but then I checked myself, I won the next four in a row, right? Very contextual things in, in all of those games. But, you know, going back to that poll with the abyss, I think part of it's the ego part of it's, and with the self, with the labeling, with the external views on chess, and it's not to denote the love or the passion for the game. I mean, but you can, you can hate things just as much as you love them. And, you know, we hear that it's a love hate relationship, you know,

Vance Crowe [01:09:38] Speaking of love, hate relationships, you know, you do the education. You talked about interacting with kids and their parents and parents' role in teaching chess. What have you observed about the way that parents and children interact, both positive and negative?

Jonathan Singler [01:09:53] Sure. I mean, the very first thing that I include, you know, especially when it's like the first chess lesson for a child is I get some time in that lesson to talk with the parents, you know, with the child there. Because a child's vision may not be the same for the parents, right? If the parents is spending a few hundred bucks a month for chess lessons, and obviously their, their goal or their vision is for that child to win, to improve, they want to see it. They wanna see trophies and things like that, you know, more maybe the tangible stuff right there, the child maybe is just like, I have an interest in chess, I wanna play, I wanna beat my friends at school. You know, and I just, I wanna have fun. So regarding the support, you know, of, of parents, you know, I'm very interested in what kind of support is there regarding chess as like an extracurricular activity. You know, are they able to get them chess books? You know, are they able to include, make sure they have daily study time, you know, for chess? Or is it just they come for the chess lesson once a week? You know, there's very different results from that. So, you know, looking at the support, you know, we're trying to identify things that the parent is involved. They're willing to take them to chess tournaments, you know, they're willing to say, invest in the coach beyond just that coaching lesson, such as having the coach available in between rounds to check on the, you know, the student to, you know, maybe even do a little homework on their upcoming opponents.

Jonathan Singler [01:11:24] Say, Hey, they play this. We, we, we haven't looked at this before, but make these first six moves and you should be pretty good here. You know, preparation. So it's, it's a, it's a relationship. Going back to this idea, chess is relationships, and as a coach, it, it has to be a relationship if it's with the child, but also the family, you know? So that's from the, the support side of it, which is the resources, the time, you know, making sure their vision is being met, but also that the child's vision can grow. And also, I mean, I have a vision as well, right? I mean, I know my job is to be hired and teach them chess, but I also have, right, the practical experience of, okay, you know, I've got 15 years in, in this field, you know, I haven't seen everything, but I've seen enough to see kind of what works and what doesn't. What sort of kills the passion in chess for children? What, you know, kills the vision for parents, you know, in terms of coaching and, and lessons. So,

Vance Crowe [01:12:24] And what is that? What, what kills it in children and how is it different from what kills it

Jonathan Singler [01:12:28] In parents? I, you know, I think for the children, it's not, it goes back to the language piece. It's no longer a conversation in the lessons. It's the sit down and listen, you know, while I teach you about this theoretical concept, there are some children that, you know, benefit from that. But the one issue is we see that within the education system, right? When we talk about standardized curriculum, we talked, you know, about, you know, sort of the Laszlo experiment, you know, which his idea was like schools are not, you know, really prepped to handle students who are sort of excelling, you know, outside of maybe the normalcy or the average student. And

Vance Crowe [01:13:08] Laszlo is Laszlo a

Jonathan Singler [01:13:10] Polgar?

Vance Crowe [01:13:11] Polgar Polgar, yes. Who is Susan Polgar's father. Yes, yes. Who wrote a book. So Susan Polgar was the person that Julian Schuster brought into Webster University Yes. To help make, bring their chess program to prominence, which became one of the best chess teams.

Jonathan Singler [01:13:24] Absolutely. I mean, in

Vance Crowe [01:13:24] The entire world. Yeah. And his, her father wrote a book on how do you make geniuses?

Jonathan Singler [01:13:30] Yes.

Vance Crowe [01:13:31] And, and he believed, he had a hypothesis. This is how you make geniuses. And as far as you can tell from his children, all

Jonathan Singler [01:13:37] Success,

Vance Crowe [01:13:38] They were, they are all successful. Yes.

Jonathan Singler [01:13:40] And I mean, not even just successful in terms of, you know, performance in chess, but, you know, areas of chess outside of it, dimensions outside of it. Now granted, there, there is a, you know, tailoring off point, which is that accountability piece, right? Which is cool. You're really great at chess, but what are you going to do about rounding your life out and developing other skills? I think the earlier we can sort of develop those skills in children, say leadership opportunities to say, start coaching peers, to start organizing club events, right? In K through five, I mean, there, there's so many opportunities here, you know, to develop that are missed. So going back to, you know, Susan Polgar, who, you know, she, her vision for Webster University was to build this chess minor. And, and there's actually a bit of a story in terms of how, you know, I got involved with this project. But, you know, going back to that support piece, he clearly had support for his children. He was very invested in bringing them to tournaments. I mean, over 30, 40 different countries playing in chess tournaments, you know, as children, you know, the mom, you know, and obviously this is, you know, not just from conversations with Susan, we haven't talked much about, you know, these areas, but they've been written about and so forth, anecdotally, and I would think if some of them weren't true, there'd probably be, you know, lawsuits, you know, you know. But I think with, you know, some of the stories that have been shared about it, you see the right stuff, you know, the, this question, it's funny, going back to the book, you know, the right stuff like, you know, for an astronaut, like what's the right stuff for children and chess or learning, it starts with support at home.

Jonathan Singler [01:15:20] You know, if the home life is broken, if there's a lack of resources, if there's a lack of, say environmental opportunities are just not in a good chess area, right? Or they don't have, you know, the right contacts, like, it's very difficult to then instill in the child, you know, a very specific discipline to be able to afford it and then support it, you know, long term. So, you know, you know, Susan, you know, and, and her sisters had that support at home, right? And beyond home. And, and fortunately for Laszlo, I think he was smart enough to look at the education system and say like, this ain't it. You know, you're, you know, if you go through the system, you're going to come out the system just pretty much at the same place as most people if you don't do anything spectacular through it. So it's kinda like telling an undergrad student, you know, go to school, get a degree, you'll be successful. And it's like, it's a piece of paper. It does show some time that you spent, you know, in certain areas that you know, you know a little bit more in. But what'd you do during your time? Did you internship? Did you build a cool product? You know, what, what did you do that differentiated you, that built other skill sets other than you're a good student? So coming back to it, you know, they had the right stuff in terms of that support for chess. The, the, the, the where the support I think goes wrong, not in their situation, but in many parent situation is their vision, their expectation.

Jonathan Singler [01:16:55] Where a parent can be overbearing in terms of the development, you know, of their child, for example, we can see it as, say, hovering over their child's chess game at a tournament. That's a lot of pressure. I mean, even if a child has a good relationship, you know, with their parent, children wanna please parents, right? That, that's kinda like what we're taught. Like the, the people that you please around you, you know, the, the better, you know, maybe the, the social kudos or the social currency that comes with it, right? You're helping other people. They're helping you. Otherwise, what's the point of a community, a society, right? Trying to build that survival, you know, life experience. So, so going back to,

Vance Crowe [01:17:39] Well, as a parent, I, I can see children develop this. The, my 2-year-old is just now beginning to understand that her little sister has feelings. So if you bite her, she's going to cry. If, if mom is upset, right? Mom's gonna have these emotions, and that's gonna reflect back to her. She's just at the very, very beginning of the psychosocial thing. But I can imagine, and I'm trying to make as many observations as I can before she has it. 'cause right now she's actually just a ball of her own emotion in her own looking out in the world. But as she gains it, you could see a parent being very tempted to wanna hijack that. Oh, she really cares what I think of her. So I could get her to cooperate by manipulating how, how much she sees about me being disappointed or angry yes. Or sad or, or really happy and having this child not have that internal compass of like, what's right for me, but instead be fully oriented towards what do my parents think I should be doing.

Jonathan Singler [01:18:43] Yeah. I mean, it's a problem we all face, right? And it kind of comes down to like that dialogue piece. Like when, when does the child have it? But also, you know, from the parent perspective, you know, who is, I think it's Kerwin Rae who talks a lot about his, you know, a speaker. He talks a lot about relationships and parenting and, you know, even his moments of coercion or manipulation of, you know, or even emotional outbursts that affects, you know, the child's perception of, you know, interacting in the world and sort of reducing their courage to explore the world, to make mistakes and the process. And, and I think we also, and I may say we, I mean, I'm not a parent, but you know, I was a child, right? So, you know, I think one thing that is critical, and this goes back to part of my coaching philosophy with those, you know, four and five and six year olds with that literacy piece, is not labeling them as a good or bad chess player as a student, but helping them realize they're an individual and you know, their path. As much as we wanna pretend it's set in stone, because they've been introduced at a young age, which we know that children introduced to a, a technical area to expertise or master that area at a young age, their chances of mastering it are, are higher because they have very different life responsibilities.

Jonathan Singler [01:20:20] The support that they would need, say as an adult to pursue professional chess. You have to figure it out on your own. You know, more or less,

Vance Crowe [01:20:28] Oh, they're sponges. I mean, my daughter can pick up words, you know, the, I can't even believe. And if I were picking up language as fast as she is, and simultaneously learning how to do somersaults in, in just a single day, children are just wired for that.

Jonathan Singler [01:20:42] They, they are. And I mean, as far as, you know, cognitive development, sure there's a little bit of cutoffs at certain developmental stages of what should be achieved and so forth that might impact the next, but, you know, we're still kind of forming our brains. I mean, up to 30, you know. And so, you know, how unfortunate is it to tell a student or your child, like remove them from chess lessons or some activity because they're just not good enough right now? And talk about the implications that you've created, say as a parent or even as your own self, labeling yourself, mislabeling yourself with a very short term outlook on like what your capabilities are. And so, you know, so for me at least, the sooner I can help the student realize that this journey is really 90% them studying, annotating their games, helping them build skill sets to build confidence or self-efficacy in this area. And obviously outside that area too. You know, if you, I think if you build that mastery or confidence, there is some translation that, you know, your self-efficacy is probably gonna be a little bit higher. There's a lot of research studies done in the sixties and seventies between Dr. Bandura, who was very interested in performance. How do people feel about themselves from one area of mastery?

Jonathan Singler [01:22:16] And we'll call it intelligence, right? Intelligence, maybe that requires specific skill sets to be intelligent in that area. Pattern recognition, memory recall. So how, not only how does the skills translate to other dimensions, but more importantly, you know, what translates about themselves into it. And so from a lot of studies that were conducted and sort of redefining what self-efficacy was, you know, your sense of self and your abilities developed into this concept of agency. It's part of my theoretical framework for my, my dissertation currently. And, and looking at chess educators, how can we build confidence and self-efficacy in them to teach in different domains. But you know, your agent self, your sense of self. If you master your swimming, can you take that mastery over to chess? Well, for example, we see a, without research being done, we see a very successful story, albeit probably between overburdening support as well as a high sense of agency. Josh Waitzkin probably one of the most famous American players. That's who searching for Bobby Fischer was based on incredible chess story of, you know, prominent youth. And, and there was better chess players at his age, you know, but his story was really incredible how he was excelling at chess.

Jonathan Singler [01:23:48] Scholastically had support, you know, at home, right? His father, you know, really pushing for chess. He had some of the greatest coaches that were pushing for chess, as you see in the movie and in the book. And, but pushing so hard for him to become the next Bobby Fischer, you know, of the us. He quit, you know, he's got some interviews, you know, he can talk much more eloquently about his own life story, you know, than I can. But it's like a decade later, he becomes a world champion and Tai Chi after quitting chess, after, you know, achieving some level of mastery in chess and, and finding how chess translates over into this area. And then sort of looking at, what is it? I think he's got a book called, you know, the Art of Learning, where he talks about the transference of key areas, you know, from one domain to another. But also being careful that just because you have mastered a domain doesn't necessarily mean you're capable of mastering another. There's still deliberate practice, which research shows it accounts at least in cha for maybe 30%, you know, of, of your, your progress, which is a lot, but then it's not, right. It's kinda like you can only help yourself so much. And then what's the context of that? So, so having that right support say, and the domain of coaching and the domain of parent support and the domain of yourself, I mean, is really important. But those negative per respects of pushing too hard.

Jonathan Singler [01:25:22] I mean, I unfortunately beat a 6-year-old child in a tournament who, which I actually was proud about. I had some ego in because I was like, you know, I just lost to an 8-year-old the round before, you know, I'm gonna crush the 6-year-old. And, you know, and it was a back and forth game anyways, the parent was hovering, you know, and I was already coaching at this time, so I was like, ah, this, this is to my benefit right now, right? Please keep hovering right for me. But I knew it was bad, you know, for the child. The child lost the game. And, you know, I was excited. I got my point. I moved up in raiding, he, you know, walks out, you know, the, the, the hall, you know, and he's kind of stoic, you know, in the face. And I walk out there and he's backed up against the wall, like, like, just terrified. His dad is in his face yelling with his finger in his chest. And I was like, you know, I kind of want to tear up right now. 'cause it's like you possibly just destroyed, not even just this kid's future and chess and love for the game. Like, you just destroyed their confidence, their trust in you. I mean, as a parent. And now that they want to please you. Going back to that right? Sort of the, you know, what's the right stuff, you know, for children. It's not, it, I mean, you can even, you don't even have to conduct research on that. You just look at and you're like, you know, it's one thing, you know, if your child messed up and you're trying to like, convey to them, you know, in some capacity.

Jonathan Singler [01:26:59] And, but it was a game. At the end of the day. It was a game. And when we go back to that abyss, right, the negatives that could possibly be from it, or even the abyss of having to f you know, as soon as you come off that cliff of K through 12, you've gotta figure chess out for yourself. You know, just, just talk about you. You can't, you can't undo that action. And so, you know, I, I remember just walking out of there, like even for myself feeling so guilty 'cause I was like, I should have thrown the game, you know? Right. Illegal in us just to do. But, you know, then it's like, why are we, it goes back to that question, like, why did you sign your child up for this tournament? Because you wanted them to win, because you wanted your chess lessons or your investment to pay off. But thinking about that chess research, are we programming specifically to improve their academic scores? Is that really the goal that we're getting at here? Is the goal to help them achieve mastery and sacrifice so many other beautiful things to experience in life? I mean, talk about, you know, for some having a family or just, you know, for those who can find like the appreciation and beauty in life and these other domains that simply just playing at the chess board can't measure up to, but also, I mean, life can't measure up to what happens, you know, for yourself at the chess board.

Jonathan Singler [01:28:29] So it, man, I mean, it's, it's

Vance Crowe [01:28:33] Back and forth. So you are a parent, you're out in the middle of Utah, right? And there's not a lot of, there's not a lot of, you know, chess programs around. What do you think a parent should do to get their child acquainted and, you know, oriented up the, the rock face?

Jonathan Singler [01:28:52] I mean, it's difficult, right? So I didn't really have, I didn't grow up in an environment where chess, you know, was, I mean, I, so, you know, I was, I was born in the us lived in Spain for a few years as a child, you know, and then, you know, grew up in, in Texas through, you know, a divorced family and things like that. And I actually, I grew up in a little, say a little town, but Major Port Beaumont, Texas, and there wasn't a lot of chess other than maybe at a cafe. So scholastic chess just wasn't a thing. So, I mean, what's funny is like Utah, you know, has a state affiliate with us chess, they actually have chess programs there and stuff. There are remote places and states that, you know, just, you know, aren't as robust for opportunity. I think with the advent of chess online, you know, obviously there's a lot of drama in chess now, you know, with recent ethical concerns. Two years ago we had the COVID boom, so chess streaming and playing chess online was a big thing. So access has definitely changed. And I think it's been a really beautiful thing because now through say companies or organizations like Chess Kid or you know, some, you know, shout out to, you know, friends, you know, that I know that are coaches running like PEs, you know, Powell's Chess Academy or Premier Chess, you know, in New York and Denver and all these incredible places that, you know, are heavily populated that there's just not enough access for man online chess is, you know, it's the bee's knees, you know, getting children, you know, the opportunity to build tech technological skills like we talked about earlier, navigating websites, doing annotation literacy skills, being able to make friends, right.

Jonathan Singler [01:30:37] In other states, at other schools and other programs, you know,

Vance Crowe [01:30:43] Where do you play your on's, chess? Are you on, are you on Lichess?

Jonathan Singler [01:30:47] Yeah, off and on Lichess. I mainly just coach through there now, you know, so

Vance Crowe [01:30:52] Lichess is an open source, chest,

Jonathan Singler [01:30:55] Open, open source website. It's free, I think you can become a patron or something, but I mean, I use it for their study features with my students. So I can use an interactive board, have them import games, I can draw arrows and they can see the arrows and they'll stay there for them to go review. And, and really the tools just kind of, you know, it just, it has to match like what, what the student needs. I mean, if students are more interested in chess.com or chess kid, depending on how they're learning, that's fine. I've got students that, you know, adult students who are very against technology, you know, in the sense of computers and chess engines and so forth. So they're more interested in a phone call, you know, and having that phone call, it's almost like, I mean, we just, with the age difference, I kind of feel like, you know, like, Hey grandpa, you know, like, you know, how are you doing this week and stuff. And it's more of a relationship there and they just wanna play over the board, right? Just speaking out the moves over the phone. And now, you know, I'm working, you know, gosh, I feel like I'm working in so many areas of chess, it's great, but there's so many things developing so fast where, I mean, it's even, you know, like text-based coaching now where it's just, you know, maybe you send some videos, but, you know, it's, it's kind of like check-ins here and there and, and

Vance Crowe [01:32:21] Are you coaching now?

Jonathan Singler [01:32:22] Oh, yeah, I'm coaching in different domains. So I coach for my own business in Texas. I, I coach for another company, better Ed Corporation, who actually is a tech company involved with like software development and educational learning and like piano and music and chess. So, so I'm, I'm working for them now. And then, you know, so I'm not coaching at Webster, but I'm sort of coaching in the sense of coaching. Well,

Vance Crowe [01:32:47] You're playing at Webster?

Jonathan Singler [01:32:48] I'm playing at Webster though, yeah. Yes. And which, which is helping my coaching. Absolutely. I'm very fortunate to, from Susan really advocating for me. I mean, it was, there's actually a story of how I even ended up at Webster, and I say ended up, because you never know where you're going to end up in, in life. But to at least close out the coaching aspect of it, you know, you know, I don't just coach chess from sport, right? Obviously I'm coaching for social emotional learning. I'm coaching for other life skills for these students to build their sense of agency. And at Webster, I mean, I'm not coaching, but I'm now a professor, you know, of a course that I built as an undergrad student for like my vision of what chess at, you know, the higher ed level would look like. And I, you know, got to meet, you know, Susan's vision with it and, and adjust, you know, these different courses and program to, you know, a conversation that other experts like, you know, Susan's expertise in the field of education with her foundation, and not even just college chess, but scholastic chess, I mean, is unrivaled. I mean, even her sister is working internationally with, you know, education and coaching. And so for my own coaching, I mean, you know, I feel very small, very humble, you know, sort of in, in the field. But

Vance Crowe [01:34:13] What is a chess coach? What are the various levels that that, is this a $15 an hour thing? Is this a hundred dollars an hour? Like how does that work?

Jonathan Singler [01:34:23] It's, it's entrepreneurship. So here's the thing, I, I don't think, you know, I know there's a conversation of, you know, separating, you know, the person from the art, you know, in different conversations of dialogue. But I think in some things, you know, you can, and some things you can't. And you know, I wear a coach hat, right? I wear a professor hat, I wear a curriculum writer hat, you know, author hat, you know, like there's so many things that, you know, come with me. So answering sort of this question of like what levels there are and sort of what kind of pay is there in the field, you know, you have FIDE, which is the International Chess Federation. They have their own FIDE trainer, which is like their coaches, you know, system with the us there's five levels. I'm also on the US Chess Coach committee. So we're actually revamping the coaching system and what a coach actually is because it's been focused on Scholastic. And we're like, well, it's half our membership, what about the other half? Right? What about vulnerable populations, you know, are, do, do we develop certifications for those? So there's five levels. I think it's like local, is it local district, advanced national and professional, somewhere in there. I'm at level three advanced waiting on national for that. And, and they have different requirements and stuff. They don't suggest any pay with it. But the whole point of the coach certification program in the us and the reason I'm, I'm talking about US chess is because it's really, I mean, it's, it's a national chess governance entity, right?

Jonathan Singler [01:36:03] That has identified three professional paths in the field of chess sport, national masters. You get a title for that. You're seen as a professional chess player, even if you're not making maybe an income from it, you're at that level. Tournament directors, there's paths for that. Who are those who put on chess competitions for those to enjoy? And then there's the coaches. Now FIDE has more domains, but with the coaches, it's really gonna depend on what you put. So I know plenty of people who are grand masters, I mean, the highest chess mastery title you can get aside from World Champion and they're charging like 10 bucks an hour, no benefits behind you, right? And 10 bucks an hour, I mean, you get what you pay for in a sense. Many of them will just play you in a game crush you show you what you did wrong. That's it. Some actually develop curriculum for you. So, you know, planning for a, a chess lesson could take anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour depending on what, where they're at, what they need, you know, for that week. And so now you're talking about them making five bucks an hour, you know? And if they have a business structure, maybe they're paying taxes or maybe it's under the table, you know, case in point is it's not very lucrative at that per hour cost. What's, what's the phrase? Like keep your day job, you know? But then there's amateurs, you know, and I, I know even for myself that, you know, I won't work under a certain threshold and it's like, well that's not fair.

Jonathan Singler [01:37:35] And it's like, what do you mean it's not fair? I set my price. Right. And, and what comes with it is a specific set of value, both from the coaching side, right? If, I mean, the whole point is if I'm coaching you, I should be coaching you, giving you resources, helping you develop so that I am out of a job. If I'm not trying to get out of a job with you, I am not, I'm trying to think of the best word to use here, but I'm, you know, I would be using you as a client. I'm, you know, I,

Vance Crowe [01:38:06] It's like the chiropractor that just wants to have a patient come back every week as opposed to resolving their problem. So that like, come back when you have a new problem

Jonathan Singler [01:38:13] Come. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, well, you can't really do this at home. It's not really gonna be beneficial. And you try to find holistic ideas to maybe fix your health through nutrition or diet, stretching, you know, that kind of stuff. You know, preventative care right? Before, you know, you go when there's a problem,

Vance Crowe [01:38:30] But

Jonathan Singler [01:38:30] You should, you know, and I know some of 'em will give you some preventative care kind of exercises to do at home, but you know, the machine has to keep running.

Vance Crowe [01:38:38] So if people found what you were saying today really interesting and they wanted to get ahold of you, where would they go?

Jonathan Singler [01:38:44] Sure. So Quest for chess is my company, and if there's anybody that's interested in web development, I'm definitely looking for a web developer. But Quest for chess.com and really what that kind of stemmed from, you know, this, this idea, you know, working in different areas of chess right now.

Vance Crowe [01:39:05] Well man, I was really excited to have you come in, I to talk about children and chess and the way it works and we jumped into areas I had no idea about. So Jonathan Singler of Quest for chess, thank you so much for coming on.

Jonathan Singler [01:39:18] Thank you for having me. And yeah, anytime you wanna learn chess, let's, let's get a lesson in.