Jerry Hayes, Editor Bee Culture Magazine talks about human nature, fear, mistakes and communicating

About this episode

Jerry Hayes, editor of Bee Culture Magazine and a former Monsanto colleague of Vance's, returns for a deep conversation prompted by an eerie coincidence — Vance dreamed about calling Jerry and then received a call from him minutes later. They dig into the psychology of shame versus embarrassment, why humans revert to tribal, mob-like behavior when publicly challenged (tying it back to shared mitochondrial ancestry and evolutionary competition), and how corporate "Kool-Aid talks" erode public trust compared to authentic, unpolished communication. Jerry recounts his own PowerPoint disasters at Monsanto that taught him to ditch slick, agency-made slides for plain, honest ones. The conversation ranges into corporate/political pandering to "customers not citizens," the ecological case against suburban lawns (Jerry's own conversion of acreage to clover), the "murder hornet" media panic, and closes with reflections on digital transformation for legacy print media and a shared, humble uncertainty about what history teaches during the pandemic.

“As soon as somebody tells me this is the opinion that I demand you have, there's something almost animalistic... I need to show this person never to do that. I need to show everyone... It made me into a person I don't want to be.”

“If people don't have trust and confidence with you at all levels, then you might as well just go in your basement and watch Netflix.”

“We aren't citizens, we're customers... Our votes are basically our money. That's why politicians pander to us.”

Key moments

• Jerry describes his career arc — from a quiet introvert "librarian" personality to a "quiet extrovert" willing to walk into hostile rooms at Monsanto, calling himself someone who has to "test himself" to bring value.
• [8/10] Vance describes being publicly challenged online to denounce someone else's tweets and feeling an "animalistic" anger response he's not proud of, connecting it to mob psychology and tribal instinct. Timestamp ~00:21:05–00:22:16.
• [7/10] Jerry explains the mitochondrial-DNA argument that all humans — Martin Luther King, Hitler, and himself alike — share identical mitochondrial ancestry, framing humanity as "brothers and sisters" despite conflict. Timestamp ~00:23:44–00:25:13.
• [7/10] Jerry argues "we aren't citizens, we're customers," describing how corporate and political decisions are driven by financial rather than civic incentives. Timestamp ~00:25:47–00:27:40.
• Extended exchange about corporate "Kool-Aid talks" versus authentic communication, including Vance's anecdote about being praised for not giving a sales pitch, and Jerry's own experience of audiences literally walking out before he'd built trust over years.
• Jerry and Vance discuss the ecological cost of suburban lawns (50 million acres, 18 million pounds of chemicals) and Jerry's conversion of his own land to clover for pollinators — a concrete, actionable environmental idea.
• [6/10] Jerry recounts a costly, embarrassing early failure using an expensive PR-made PowerPoint at Monsanto that alienated audiences twice before he switched permanently to plain, self-made slides. Timestamp ~00:53:34–00:54:36.
• Vance closes with his recurring "what will the world look like in two weeks" question; Jerry predicts pandemic behaviors will fade from memory just as prior crises have, per Santayana's warning about repeating unlearned history.

Notable quotes

“As soon as somebody tells me this is the opinion that I demand you have, there's something almost animalistic... It made me into a person I don't want to be.”

“We just wanted to let you know that we are grateful that you did not give a Kool-Aid talk.”

Predictions made in this episode

• Pandemic-era behaviors (mask-wearing, social distancing) will fade from collective memory over time, just as lessons from prior crises have been forgotten, until the next pandemic forces a repeat.
• Corporations and institutions will continue to resist empowering authentic subject-matter-expert voices over controlled "spokesperson" messaging because it conflicts with revenue and message-control incentives.