Board Game Designer Reveals Why Having a Great Idea Is Almost Worthless

Jamey Stegmaier [00:00:00] I think a lot of people, including myself for a long time, thought of games as competitive experiences. You are competing against the other players you're trying to play, outplay them and do better than them. And there are plenty. In fact, all the games that I publish are competitive games. However, there's that whole other world of cooperative games where you are working together with the other players either with limited information, like in the mind, you have your own hand of cards in the mind. You can't share them with other players.

Vance Crowe [00:00:23] I'm Bruce figure a veterinarian living in Sylvia, Kansas, and you're listening to the Vance Crow podcast. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. When was the last time you sat down and played a board game outside of chess? I almost never play board games except for a few months ago. I started having a friend of mine poke me and say, Hey man, have you played any games with your wife? Hey, if you're just sitting at home 'cause of coronavirus, why don't you play a game with your wife? And for a long time I just kind of put 'em off and said, well, I'm not that interested. And then I decided, all right, well I'll play the game of risk. And that went horribly wrong. And then I sat down and said, all right, what game should we play? And he gave me a couple of games that I then played, and I would describe them as having a transcendent experience, a time with my wife that would be on par with, I don't know, having some really amazing experience. And so I became much more interested in this idea of board games and why do we play games? And so now I've had a chance to interview one of the most well-known game designer and production houses in the board game world. And his name is Jamie Meyer. And we are going to go to an interview with him. And it's a fascinating conversation. We talk about what goes into the designing of a game, how do you write directions so that people have fun, rather than just sit there frustrated with learning how to play the game. And then we talk about kind of why is it that games give you these experiences?

Vance Crowe [00:01:58] This is a really interesting interview, and I have to say, it was one of those that I found myself kind of nervous about doing because I thought to myself, what is it that I have in common with a board game designer? But what I found out from talking with Jamie is that he is a businessman and he's a creative and much like the author of a book that has to design worlds or the publisher of a book that has to guide people through this process. He had a lot of interesting things to say that are just behind the curtain. So I'm really looking forward to you hearing this interview. The reason I started playing these games was because there is a man named Nicholas Bartlett who has a company called Go Po Popcorn. It's in Fulton, Missouri, and they do gourmet popcorn. And he's a member of the Articulate Ventures Network. And he's one of those people that I don't know that I would've met outside of the podcast or the network. And because I encounter him regularly and I hear these ideas that are, are completely different than mine, it changes the world around me. And that's the value of having a community online like the Articulate Ventures Network. If you've been thinking about joining it, I hope you listen to this interview and you think about how you could meet people that are just as different as Jamie is to me, because these are the types of people that you'll meet in that network. I'm really looking forward to seeing you if this is something you're interested in, and you can get there by going to Network Articulate Ventures, and you'll find that there's a group of people there that are excited to meet you wanna learn all about you, and we'll have a great experience with you in that network.

Vance Crowe [00:03:38] Well, without further ado, we're going to head to my interview with Jamie Meyer of Stone Meyer Games. I'm so glad you're here. Jamie Meyer, welcome to the podcast.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:03:49] Hey, thanks so much for having me. This is, this is, I'm looking forward to this. Well,

Vance Crowe [00:03:52] This is a very different interview. So I've interviewed everybody from biotech scientists to juujitsu experts to animal experts, but never anybody in board games. And in fact, board games to me often seem like something that kids do. But when I went to look you up, I found there is an entire world of people that spend a great deal of energy and intellect on building board games. So this is an exciting interview for me.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:04:19] That's right. Yeah. And I had the same perception as you, I think, growing up and, and for many, many years. And so it's, it's exciting to me that I've been able to make a career out of it and find many people who, who enj and many adults who enjoy board games as well.

Vance Crowe [00:04:31] So you actually run a business that is designing board games. What is that even like?

Jamey Stegmaier [00:04:37] Yeah, so it, I, I run a board game publishing company, which is the closest comparison, I think, to a book publishing company where someone running a book publishing company isn't necessarily writing all the books. They probably aren't writing many of the books at all in my company. I designed some of the games that we publish, but many of them are designed by other designers that I seek out those designs or have them submit those designs to, to us. And then a lot of my job is really project management. I'm coordinating editors, proofreaders, manufacturers, freight shipping companies, fulfillment centers. So I'm kind of the consolidator to the hub for all of those things. Like I, I think some of your other audience members will relate to, they often they have one specialty and then they, they're the hub for, for many other things that they're not the experts at, but they can find the experts to make their company stronger.

Vance Crowe [00:05:21] Yeah, it usually ends up that, that your passion for something leads you to one thing and then all of a sudden, in order to make a business out of it, you have to expand into all these other areas that you on the face might not have any interest at and actually might not even be that good at it.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:05:36] Yeah. Oh yeah, that, I just wrote a blog entry about that the other day, actually, differentiating between someone who just wants to be a game designer, someone who maybe loves playing games and just wants to design them and to, they might just wanna submit their games to other publishers versus someone who wants to run a board game company. There are a lot of small board game com companies that have popped up over the last few years, largely thanks to Kickstarter and the crowdfunding platforms available out there. But running a business is very different than just designing board games. There's so much more to do if you're, if you're trying to run, run a run an actual business. Yeah. So

Vance Crowe [00:06:09] Let's talk about the design of board games. Like I think most people probably, there's probably a parade distribution of just a few games that everybody can, can know. Chess checkers, monopoly risk, and then the handful of card games that they know how to play. But what is the world outside of that when you're a person that knows all about the details?

Jamey Stegmaier [00:06:31] Yeah, so we, I describe it as the hobby game industries. This is the industry of people who wanna go deeper. And people still play games like that. There's plenty of poker players in, in the, in the game industry, in the, in the hobby game community. But there's a, I don't know, it is tough to describe 'cause I'm so immersed in it, but it is, it is a world of, of largely strategy games, deep strategy games that require a lot of analytical thinking. Oftentimes they're an economic games, sometimes they're war games, so they're tactical combat games, but they, they require a lot of strategic analytical thinking, and usually they involve a lot of agency. So a, some traditional games like Monopoly are highly driven. By luck, you're rolling some dice and some, something happens after that. Whereas in the world of hobby games, usually you, you have a lot of control over your decisions and over the outcome of those decisions.

Vance Crowe [00:07:25] I I, I think that people are probably drawn in one of those two directions, right? Yeah. Like, I really like the game where it's, you don't know what's gonna happen because you roll those dice and that ends up being where we go. Right? But there's probably very few people that deep dive love luck games because they feel so out of your control.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:07:42] I think that's a great way to put it. Yeah. Yeah. Luck games are at, at game nights that I host, we, we do play some lighter luck driven games, but we usually do that as a kind of a, to let our our brains relax a little bit in between some of these heavier, longer games. So the mix of the two is, is, is nice for, for me. Do you play, do you play, you say you're not all that familiar with games. Do, do you play any games? When was the last time you played a a tabletop game or a video game?

Vance Crowe [00:08:09] Like video games I can't play because if I start playing them, I will never stop. There'll be no podcasts, there'll be no work. I, I'll become completely addicted to them. But, you know, the, my experience with games was, I have a friend, Nicholas Bartlett, who runs a, a gourmet popcorn company that also has board games there. And he kept telling me, you should play games with your wife. We were expecting our baby. And he just kept pushing this. And I was like, dude, this is not something I do. Like, it's just, so finally I buy risk and I get my wife to play risk for about 15 minutes before that ended in absolute catastrophe.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:08:44] And

Vance Crowe [00:08:44] He was like, well, of course she's not gonna like that. She wants cooperation. And so I was like, I don't have any idea what you mean by cooperation. So I bought the game, the Mind, and

Jamey Stegmaier [00:08:54] That

Vance Crowe [00:08:55] It's a card game and it's kind of difficult. Maybe you could do a good job of describing it, but requires cooperation with the partner. And it was a transcendent experience. My wife and I had to be so in sync with one another that it took us to a different level that I don't think any other experience would've brought us to. So that's kind of a long way of saying like, the only game I've played was the mind, but that's what brought me to you because it was such a profound experience that I was like, I want to go talk to somebody that thinks deeply about games.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:09:26] Well, I love that you brought that up as an example too, because I think a lot of people, including myself for a long time, thought of games as competitive experiences. You are competing against the other players you're trying to play outplay them and do better than them. And there are plenty, in fact, all the games that I publish are competitive games. However, there's that whole other world of cooperative games where you are working together with the other players either with limited information, like in the mind, you have your own hand of cards in the mind, you can't share them with other players, or you are competing against the game. I think one of the most famous games in that realm is a game called Pandemic, where it's somewhat timely right now, even though it's a much older game where a world is collapsing due to a pan pandemic is spreading disease, and your job is to fight against that work together with the other players to fight against that disease. So there, there is that, that that's a wonderful world of games to, to appeal to both types of people, people who want to compete versus people who wanna cooperate with each other.

Vance Crowe [00:10:20] Yeah. I mean, I had the impression that my wife just didn't like games, and I just didn't have time for it. And so you, I I kind of stumbled into this world and you start saying to yourself like, well, there must be more to the concept of games because it was like, I I, in a way, like, you know how you go to a concert with somebody and you've had this experience, or you've had this euphoria, and now you're bonded to that person in a, in a different sort of way. Yeah. Is that something that you think about as you're dreaming up a game? Or how, how what is going on in the mind of somebody that is trying to create something that they know people are going to play with one another?

Jamey Stegmaier [00:10:58] Well, ultimately what it comes down to when I, when I'm designing a game, is I'm trying to bring joy to people. I'm trying to bring joy and let them have a fun experience. And so there are many, many different ways to do that. It within the game space and outside of it, you mentioned concerts, you know, there are many different forms of entertainment things that bring us joy. And so I'm always trying to focus on that as I'm designing, as I'm play testing, I am, I am looking at the other players at the table and deciding and trying to figure out, are they having fun with this? Is this making their day better right now because they're playing this because they're making interesting decisions, because they're having that, that fun, luck filled moment, whatever it may be. I'm trying to focus on that fun and that joy. Have you heard that from other creators that you've talked to where that they, their why is, is joy or fun or, or something like that?

Vance Crowe [00:11:47] It does seem like that's something that I, I'm probably surrounded by it. I watch a lot of YouTube videos and I, I feel like there are people that if you're truly great at something, it's because you want other people to experience something that you've had. But a lot of the people that I interview for this, like they're on a, on a path of curiosity, right? They, they, they found something, they discovered it, and they're like, Ooh, I wanna, I want to dig deeper into that. And so it may be that the biochemist doesn't go looking for joy, but they know that there's something deeper that if they just keep searching for it, they'll find it.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:12:25] I like, yeah, I like that a lot. And, and given that comparison too, games are not essential. The world can survive without tabletop games. They're an extra level, whereas your, your, your biochemists are probably looking for something essential, something that people really need related to survival or health or something like that. But I, it is fun to be in an entertainment industry where, where people are doing it, they're seeking, they're seeking fun, they're seeking joy, and I'm trying to provide it for them.

Vance Crowe [00:12:53] So as somebody that is lifting somebody that has a dream and and propelling them forward, what do you think is the common misconception when a person goes from, like, I like playing games to, I want design a game.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:13:09] I, I would say the most common misconception, one that I experienced and, and had for, for most of my life until I got into the game design industry really, is that having an idea for a game is, is really, has any value at all and is close to the idea of designing a game. The game design process does start with an idea, starts with often brainstorming and, and, and some early prototyping, ideally some early prototyping. But that is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to actually taking that idea and turning it into something real and playable and fun and functional and intuitive. So I do hear, I hear so many people contact me and say, Hey, I have a great idea for a game. And I say to them, that's great. Do something with it. Like the, the, the execution is what matters. The execution is what has value, not just the idea.

Vance Crowe [00:14:00] And so, what do you mean by that? The execution? So like how you design the directions, or what the board looks like, how, how, I have no idea where this is going.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:14:09] All of it. All of it. So someone might come to me and say, I have an idea for a, a cooperative pirate themed game. And that's great that they have the idea, but the design process for me is, it is kinda a 10 step process. I've broken it down into 10 different steps. It starts with often brainstorming, research, playing a lot of other games in that realm where least studying other games in that realm, making that first prototype, which doesn't usually involve writing a rule book. Usually it just involves putting together some bare bones components and actually getting to the table and playing it and see how other humans interact with that game. And then repeatedly play testing it, it iterating, improving it, and then eventually bringing it to something that I call, or that we call blind play testing, which is where I send, I've written the rules, I have the components put together, and I send those digital files to people around the world for them to play test without me there to help them. I was, I'm guessing there are other, you've probably talked to other people that have similar product testing methods where sometimes they're there like actually watching people, helping people use the product, and other times they're behind a, a window or watching a video halfway around the world of someone trying to learn how to use the product. So it's, it's, I would say it's comparable to other product development steps to turn it into that final, final version of the game. And I, and I haven't even mentioned like hiring the artist, hiring the craft designer, having them lay out the game and all that.

Vance Crowe [00:15:28] Yeah. And so when you're writing a book, right, like they have the concept of the hero's journey, right? Right. And so you've gotta get the hero to, you know, get the call to adventure and then they encounter somebody and like you kind of have this process. Is that true? Is there a, like a template, so to speak? I mean, and that template of the hero's journey when writing a book doesn't help you write the nexter, you know, great American novel. But it does give you a sense for where you have to, how, how the path will go that other people can get on board with you. Is that same thing? Go on with game design?

Jamey Stegmaier [00:16:00] I would say the closest comparison is that there are some core mechanisms that are used in board games. I'll, I'll give you an example here. And, and usually they're used as a, as a jumping off point for both the designer and trying to connect gamers who already know this mechanisms to, to the game itself. An example of this is, is a mechanism called a worker placement. So in, in a number of games that use this worker replacement mechanism, on your turn, you are taking a little worker token and you're putting it on a certain spot on the board. And that spot on the board says, gain $2, or, or, or, or build a building. Different, different actions. And so that is a core framework. And oftentimes game ideas, game designs will start with a core, that core mechanism that is well known to a lot of people in the game industry. And then they put their own twist on that mechanism. So I would say that's probably the closest comparison. 'cause there are so many different themes and paths and, and different lengths of games. There are games that play in five minutes, there are games that play in 10 hours. So it, it, I would, that's the closest parallel I can think of to the, the hero's journey, the kind of the rough framework of a, of a, of a novel.

Vance Crowe [00:17:08] When did you

Jamey Stegmaier [00:17:09] Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:17:09] Like move into the professional side of game development?

Jamey Stegmaier [00:17:14] Well, I had, I had never really thought that I could make a career out of it. And then I started to see back in maybe 2010, Kickstarter became a thing. I should, should I talk about what Kickstarter is?

Vance Crowe [00:17:27] I think people probably know, but you can talk about your experience with it. Yeah.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:17:30] Okay. Yeah. So I, you know, it's a crowdfunding platform where you can gauge demand for product, raise funds for it, build community, and I started to see tabletop game projects on this platform. And up until this point, I designed a few random games just for fun. Over the course of my life, I hadn't really gone deep into, into any of the designs, but I was really excited by the Kickstarter platform, really excited to, to see if I could actually design a game and, and publish it. And so I designed the game specifically to put on Kickstarter. This is back in 2011 that I started, and I put it on Kickstarter in 2012. And even then, like the project was successful, it did well. And even then, and even after the next project I ran, which did much, much better, I didn't picture it as a career because it just seemed, didn't seem like something that could be stable and, and sustainable.

Vance Crowe [00:18:17] What were you doing as a career?

Jamey Stegmaier [00:18:19] I was working at Washington University. We're both here in St. Louis. So I, I was working at, as a director of operations at one of the facilities at the Wash U campus. So that was my full-time job. This was just something fun that I was doing on the side. And eventually I got to the point where I asked my boss at Wash U if I could take one day off a week and earn 20% less and focus that day on still Meyer games. And it got to the point where I was doing that and still kind of working 40 hours a week on my day job and 40 hours a week on still my games. And I, I wasn't fully committing to either one because of that split. And I decided to, to go for Stel Meyer games to, to save up enough money that I can kind of make it a year and see how I could do if I just focused on it for a year. And I gave that a shot,

Vance Crowe [00:19:01] Man. Like, so Wash u for people that don't know, this is like the, the equivalent of Harvard in the Midwest. I mean, it is a major university with a lot of prestige, I think, about a guy going not just to your boss, but to anybody that feels like they have an investment in your future and being like, I'm a switch from washing to games. What

Jamey Stegmaier [00:19:23] Was that like? Yeah, I mean, I, that was, that was my feeling of it. It was like, how can I possibly, like, I had such a steady, secure job and I'm very risk averse. I, I, I, I was very hesitant to make that that switch. What what really convinced me is that we, it for, I was using Kickstarter for these original projects and Kickstarter, you're raising money for basically one print run of a product, whether it's games, you know, there are many different things that you can make on Kickstarter and things that you can fund, which is great, but it's not sustainable. It's just one thing, one mass of one thing that you're making one time. But by the end of 2013, we were reprinting games and still selling those games to distributors. So it was getting into a much broader audience than, than distribution. And I had some localization partners, I had some partners worldwide that were licensing our games and publishing the, our games and their languages. So I had this other source of income, other source of revenue coming in. And that's when I, I kind of looked at my bank account and said, okay, I can do this for a year and if it all fails, I'll go back and find another job. Hopefully I can maybe get back my old job, get a new job, get something I'm interested in, but I have a year to make this work. And that kind of took that risk away from it a little bit. I had, I had, I had a buffer built up.

Vance Crowe [00:20:40] So when you say you're risk averse and games that are kind of fun, have that thrill of risk and reward.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:20:47] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:20:48] Like where, where's the parallel there for you? Why, why are you risk averse in the real world and then also a game designer?

Jamey Stegmaier [00:20:55] That's, to me, one of the joys about tabletop games, really, that I can, I can be risk averse in real life. I can, I can love structure and organization, but in games when I play, I almost play the opposite way. I, I, I like to play somewhat chaotic strategies. I like to take very risky paths in games that I play. I like that escapist element. And that's one of my, I would say one of my greatest maybe pitches for people who want to try tabletop games. It's, it's a, a way to do, to experiment with very low stakes with something that you wouldn't actually do in real life. That's one of the reasons I just love, I love playing games

Vance Crowe [00:21:29] As you're saying that I'm thinking. So I play chess regularly with my father-in-law. I, I don't play with a ton of other people, but he'll come down to my house or I'll go up to his, and I realize that we reverse the polarity of what we are in regular life. In, in regular life. I am a rather bold, really big risk taker, but when I'm playing with him, I am super conservative. I'm like, don't lose pieces, you know, come back. And he's the opposite, right? Like he's very conservative, does things in a methodical way, but when he plays, it is like a storm coming at you. You have no idea what it's about to happen. But I would never have made that, that deep observation that it's, it is a way to play a role that you wouldn't play in another, in, in your ordinary life.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:22:14] Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a way to try something that where, and the, the stakes in chest are low stakes, right? You know, you lose a game. So what, you start over, you play again. You've, you've lost nothing in real life by, by by playing that strategy or trying you, it's less high to me with your, with your father-in-law. Yeah. So

Vance Crowe [00:22:31] I mean, were you a kid? Like, so I mean, I think the stereotype would be kid that plays games that grows up to play games, it means you're probably kind of dorky. Would you say that you were like a dorky kid in school? I hope that doesn't offend you. I'm just

Jamey Stegmaier [00:22:45] No, no. Yeah, I, i, i, I would say I was a mix of the two. I I, I played soccer throughout my life, so I had a, a kind of a outdoor social, very group oriented hobby for, for most of my life. I, I definitely wasn't the popular kid, but I also wasn't the, the, the, I don't know, you know, it's been a while since I've been in high school, middle school. I was somewhere in between. But yeah, I, I was a nerd. I was a, I was a, I was maybe a, a a secret, a secretive nerd or geek in, in middle school and high school. But I was outwardly and I was, I was doing things that I, I was doing a mix of both basically, which I think was good. I, I was good. I I, I'm glad I didn't immerse too far in either one of those things.

Vance Crowe [00:23:29] And the soccer player slash secret board game player, what would he think of, of current you?

Jamey Stegmaier [00:23:37] I, I, I think he would be bewildered that I could have, that I made a career out of this. I, I, I definitely saw it as, as just a, a, a hobby and, and I think I, from the business side, so the game design side is still very nerdy. The business side is mean. Perhaps there's a nerdy aspect of that too. But my company has done very well with, with really very low employee count. I, I've been our only full-time employee for most of, most of the company's time. This year I hired two other people, but it, that was after seven years of running the company. And last year we, we had over, over or nearly 12 million in revenue. So my younger self looking at that would I think probably be pretty excited that someday I might be running a company that would have annual revenue of, of, of, you know, in, in the, in the tens of millions. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:24:32] As we're talking about this, I, and you know, you think about doing well on Kickstarter, but then also being able to create games or, or design or get them into production for experiences that human beings have totally separate from you at 10 o'clock at night with a group of people you never meet, you don't know anything about. Yeah. It strikes me that you probably know something about human psychology that is important because in order to get people to have the en enthusiasm to, to support some, something like a Kickstarter or to have joy when they're playing at 10 o'clock at night, that's not, that's not something ordinary people have the ability to, to create out of, out of thin air.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:25:14] You, you might be giving more, more credit than I deserve, but I, I think you're, I think a key skill that I've tried to develop is observing people and trying to put myself in their shoes and try to see what brings them joy. Because there, there are, there are many different types of people, many different types of gamers. And I, I am always trying to pay attention to that, to see what excitement excite, excites them to see what, what is an interesting decision to one person, which may not be interesting to another person. What might be frustrating to one person and not to another person. One big picture thing that I have learned about tabletop games in particular is that I think they are a great interface for social interactions for introverts. I'm an introvert, but I also love people. I just, I need my, my, I like structure in our conversation. So a game night, whenever I have a game night, back in the days when I could host people at my place, I, the, the, the small talk that happens before the game night is almost agonizing into me. I don't enjoy small talk, but once we sit down at the table and we're ha we have that structure of the game around us, I, I thrive in that environment. I've seen other introverts really thrive in that environment. So that is one thing about human nature that, that I definitely have learned in, in the tabletop world. Have you seen anything? Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:26:29] Well, so I mean, what I, what what I see if that is, you know, small talk is a novelty search. You're, you're like trying to pick out like, what is it that this person and I have in common enough that I can inquire about it? But then also they know something that is interesting for me. And I find that not just introverts in the, in the nerdy sense are that way, but I think sports are much that way. Like, I know a lot of people that are really good at business, but they don't like starting conversations. But if you sit at a baseball game or you, or you play golf, the fact that you have an object in front of you that you're trying to move towards or you're watching somebody else move towards gives that freedom that you can say things or you can listen to people and you, and you don't have to worry is the spotlight on me? And I think that that probably has a parallel there.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:27:18] Well, and the spotlight, I'm glad you mentioned that too, because there, I think maybe some people when they, they think about board games, think about party games, which maybe have, probably have more popular popularity than tabletop games, but on in party games, oftentimes the spotlight is on you. And I think that can be maybe the deterrent for an introvert to get into games if that's what they perceive the world of gaming to be. I generally stay away from party games for that reason. But there are some party games that where the spotlight is not on, not on you, but yeah, totally. That's a great, great comparison there to watching, watching sports and having that, that, that that outward focus instead of that spotlight shining on you. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:27:55] And so as you're imagining building a game, I is, if, if you're thinking about the introvert, are you thinking about like, how can I give them an objective that allows them to focus but not be so focused that they don't get the, the, the other experience that they might actually be drawing the joy out of, which is the conversation that's, that's stimulated because of it?

Jamey Stegmaier [00:28:15] That's a big part of it. Yeah. And, and a big part of that is kind of how much I require players to engage in the, the, the table talk, the discussions around the game. There are games that I play that are almost completely silent, like players are just sitting there silently focused on their own thing. And that's fine, but I, I like if there are some reasons to talk with other players to, to, to, to jab at them for making a, a, a, a certain move or not, or, or for getting in your way or for an opportunity for you to get in their way. So there are all these opportunities for inter like, structured interactions that I try to build into the game and largely try to make them positive interactions. If I'm doing something that I, I might benefit myself, but I also might help some other players by doing that as well and creating, creating a positive experience. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:29:04] So I recently read the book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Have you ever read this book? I've

Jamey Stegmaier [00:29:09] Heard of it, but I haven't read it. No, no.

Vance Crowe [00:29:11] So it is a, it it looks like a book that'd be arduous to get through. 'cause it's really thick and it's, it's, but it's actually a wonderful read. And the, the main character, his second job, the job he had after he was a college professor was to be an instruction designer for putting together objects. Like, Hey, we're gonna put together this grill. How do you do it? Yeah. And through that, he talks about the reason that directions are often so bad when you're putting together the grill or the bicycle or the whatever is because the engineers are building it and then they take the guy off the line that is the least valuable to say, Hey, tell the instruction designer how to put this all together.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:29:53] But

Vance Crowe [00:29:53] In your world, the directions are the actual game. I mean, like the, so what is it that that had you, like, how do you think through articulating out how you will play this game when you can't be in front of them and, and have them so they, they have this experience of joy as opposed to like ripping up the directions and growing them away.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:30:15] This is the, the ultimate challenge I think in game design. I'm glad you mentioned that. And, and, and it does again, come back to my ability to put myself in someone else's shoes. And in this case, it's the hardest thing to do because I know the game inside and out, inside and out. I'm trying to explain it in such a way that someone who knows nothing about the game can actually be able to play it from the, the instructions. I've, I've, I mean it's basically I've learned by experience over time of, of how to do that. I, I don't know if there's a huge thing that I can describe that would help your audience to and how they can think about that. But a few key things are, one, the blind play testing process where that's where I, I've written out the instructions, I send it out to other people and they play test it without me there. That makes a huge difference. 'cause oftentimes they come back to me with what initially seems like a dumb question maybe. 'cause I'm like, oh, of course. That's like, why are you asking that? But I, every time I, I have to check myself and realize they're asking that because I didn't explain it clearly enough in the rule book. That's, that's on me. And so that, that's a great opportunity for me to, to improve the rules. And the other thing that I've heard from, from a number of game design professors is a great learning example to see how hard it is really to, to design a rule book is to try to write down the rules to tic-tac toe and then have someone again that pretty much everybody knows and then have someone try to play tic-tac-toe exactly by the rules that you wrote down. And you'll see really quickly how the smallest nuance can lead someone in a very different direction from from the actual rules of the game.

Vance Crowe [00:31:46] Yeah, I think that like the, the process of designing rules and then being able to adapt and requires humility because you, you know, you've thought like, Hey, I I want this done the way that I want it done. And no, I don't wanna explain it in this other way. I wanna explain it the way that I wanna explain it. But that would be a blind alley really put you in some bad spots.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:32:06] Right? And, and, and board games, it's often written down, so you're having someone read something. Hopefully you have some visual examples there for them to use. But it, it is, yeah, you can definitely, you can lead them astray easily. And you also, I found that they're bringing their experiences from other games or not having played other games. Both of the two, we've experienced both. So I have some people who played other board games and they take those experiences and intuit things from our rule books that are not there, but they're, they're, they're taking their experiences into that. And we've also, we have a very popular game. Our most, our bestselling game is a game called Wingspan. And Wingspan is a game about birds. And it ended up appealing to the birding community, a community that, I didn't know how big this community was, but there are a lot of people who are very passionate about birds. And so suddenly we had this influx of people who have never played a modern hobby tabletop strategy game before who wanted to play this game because they love birds. And so once we realized how big that audience was, we actually added an additional guide to the game that just essentially tells you what to do on each of your first few turns. So it, it is, it leaves nothing nuance. It just says, do this exact thing, here's what you are actually doing, here's what it looks like when you do it. And so we're basically walking through a, a, a non gamer through the initial steps of playing the game so that they can get into the rhythm without having to make any decisions or intuit anything. The game is, is exactly telling them what to do. So we're trying to appeal to those different audiences, which is a, a unique challenge.

Vance Crowe [00:33:40] Yeah. I actually remember now that not only did I get the mind, but I got this other game where you build platforms together. And I, I don't remember very much about it, but I remember that the fact that YouTube is out there now, and there are people that they just specialize in, I played this game and these are the rules and let me tell you about how it works. And I was like, man, this actually would really increase the number of games that I would play because I'm the type of person that's like, Hey, we're playing a game. I don't wanna sit there and like pour through all these rules, but you have to, right? You have to learn how the structure and the world and like the conceptions work. So YouTube has to have changed the game playing world rather dramatically.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:34:21] It's had a hugely positive impact on it. Yeah, there are lots of people who play. I mean, there are lots of different types of videos. One that I'll mention here is a guy named Rodney up in Canada who runs the channel called Watch It Played, and that was his focus. He wanted to help people learn games from using the video format. And so his video, there are lots of videos out there that kinda show you, they kind of show you how to play. His videos are rule book replacement videos, and it's a paid service. I pay Rodney to create videos that entirely replace our rule books for people who prefer to learn visually and by, by, by video instead of by sitting down with a rule book.

Vance Crowe [00:34:57] Oh. And it would be so much easier for me, particularly if you're around with a group of people because everybody's getting the same information. There's not one person in charge of the rules and they're kind of guiding through it.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:35:08] Right, right. Yeah, it, it, it it's a very different experience, especially Yeah. When you have someone there to guide you, it's, it's very different than, than than reading, reading a 20 page rule book. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:35:20] I, one time was, I don't even remember what town it was, maybe Louisville or something, and I was given a talk at this giant convention center and one huge wing was taken up by people playing some board game. I still don't have any idea what this is all about. Tell me about the world of competitive board game playing, because it was shocking to me. I mean, there are thousands and thousands of people there.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:35:45] I I would say it's actually a somewhat small sector in the game space. The, the, the truly competitive gaming. There's a very popular game called Magic the Gathering that has existed for almost 30 years now. And they've structured the game around competitive play. It's a head-to-head dueling game, and the company has, they host giant tournaments around the world online and in person, and that's one of their motivators. They're trying to motivate people to play the game by this tournament format. But they're, I would say that's a very rel well, magic is a huge game, but other than that game and a few other select games, most people are playing games for pleasure, not for a ranking or, or a tournament or a a competitive drive. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:36:27] And so when you were talking about getting people together to play at your, how, how does anybody even begin to get in that world of, of board game playing with game designers or things like that?

Jamey Stegmaier [00:36:38] That's a great question. It's something that I should ask myself more often as I try to appeal to, to bring and bring new people into the community. I would say that con, well part of my answer would be local conventions. There's a great local convention in St. Louis called Geek Way to the West that tries to be welcoming to families and people who have not played games before. But I can see plenty of people, even your reaction to hearing that name, you might think, oh, like, am I really gonna go to a, a gee, a nerd, nerd convention about something that I know very little about. So I, I, I don't know. What do you think there, I'd love to hear your thought. What, what would help you engage someone like you or, or your friends who haven't played tabletop games but might actually enjoy certain games that maybe they don't even know about yet? What would help you give it a give it a try even?

Vance Crowe [00:37:22] Yeah, I think the hurdle for an adult, particularly if you're an adult with a family, is The expectation that like, I'm going to, I'm gonna spend this time and nothing productive will come out of it. And so it, that's I think the biggest hurdle for me. It's why I don't watch movies and then if I do watch a movie, I, I have an enjoyable experience. I don't think of it as wasted time, but the act of saying I'm going to go do this is probably the biggest hurdle because, and had Nicholas not been pounding me over and over and over again, have you done this? Have you done this? Have you done this? And then there was coronavirus and my wife was pregnant, so I didn't have anywhere to go. I finally relented and did it and was like, wow, this is a really great experience. But I don't know how you replicate that for people, because it's one of those things that like, how do you get somebody to go start playing soccer? I don't, I don't know.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:38:11] Yeah, that's true. I I think it often comes down to an invitation. I, like, I, I had been limited in terms of the sports that I can play during the coronavirus, but a friend saw that I had tried disc golfing randomly and he said, you know, I've gotten really into disc golfing. Come try it with me. Come play it with me sometime. And so I did, and it's become like my go-to sport of choice over the last few months. So that, that personal invitation does go a long way.

Vance Crowe [00:38:37] Yeah. That does seem like the introvert's game, right? So you're

Jamey Stegmaier [00:38:40] Playing

Vance Crowe [00:38:41] Something, you're walking around, you get plenty of time by yourself, and

Jamey Stegmaier [00:38:45] It's also a, a a, a tabletop gamers game, essentially. I, we we're, yeah. We're we're leveling up. We're getting points. Yeah. It's, it's, it's fun. Have you, have you tried it? Have you tried disc golfing?

Vance Crowe [00:38:55] Yeah, I did it when I was younger and it's, it's, it's very similar to, so I'm an extreme extrovert, right? The guy that has a podcast that wants to talk with people. Like for me, I want to be in a situation where nothing distracts from the talk. The small talk for me is the exciting part. It's this entire novelty search that I really enjoy.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:39:14] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:39:15] You know, you talked about Kickstarter and there's a whole, like, there's a, there's something really complex about doing that successfully. I mean, there's lots of people with great ideas that want to get other people to see their great idea, and other people maybe would like it, but like there's this whole, how do you get other people to see it? How do you get people to be excited about it? What have you learned about Kickstarter that you think is valuable to share?

Jamey Stegmaier [00:39:41] Yeah, that's a, that's a big question. I, I've written a book about it. I have a blog that I've written almost a thousand blog posts about that topic. But maybe some, some key takeaways here are one, if you are interested in using Kickstarter to, to fund something, to create something that doesn't exist yet. And the core tenets of Kickstarter are, are that you're raising funds, you're gauging demand on how many people want this thing that you're making or if they wanted it all. You're building community. You are, I'm blanking on the other two. I have five, I'll come back to the other two. But I would say the main thing is to, is to go back a few other Kickstarter projects. Have you have you back Kickstarter projects yourself?

Vance Crowe [00:40:22] Yeah, I'm trying to think of some, I mean, like, you get excited about it and you wanna see 'em succeed and so you're just excited to throw the money. I don't really care if they succeed or, I mean, I don't really care if I get the money back or not. To me, I just want to throw support behind people

Jamey Stegmaier [00:40:35] And that's great. That's great. I think that's, that's certainly part of it, of being, having, being an appealing creator to people that people actually want to support. But I learned a lot early on simply by backing other projects and seeing, actually seeing things like that, seeing, okay, I'm backing this project. I'm, I'm paid paying attention to the updates. Is this someone that I'm excited to support? What, what is happening in this project that makes me engaged and excited? And so I kind of absorbed that information. I made spreadsheets, charting out different, different funding goals and reward levels to, to see what's, what's the, what's the sweet spot here? And then I took that information and I created my own project. So the, that research, that early research made the biggest difference of anything else I could have done. And I would, I would still say the same today, if someone is considering Kickstarter, to go back a few other projects and see what it's about and experience it and see what's fun and, and see what's, what's disengaging. See both sides of it.

Vance Crowe [00:41:28] You seem to be a very a person that, I mean, if you're writing a book and you said thousands of blog posts and you're producing a, you know, other people's board games, highly industrious. Like once you get started on something and you complete it, is this something that you have to focus on that you have to force yourself to do? Or is it just natural for you to be so productive?

Jamey Stegmaier [00:41:51] I, I don't, well, productive. It is a nice compliment. Thank you. I don't know if I'm always productive. I, I, I, there's certainly things that I procrastinate about and if I do procrastinate about something, I often try to delegate it to somebody else because I'm realizing, Hey, I'm just not having fun with this. I can pay somebody else to do it. And they, maybe they're much better at it or they have fun doing it. But I, I, there's a lot, I, I create a lot of different content. And I think what I found is that if I'm excited about any form of content, whether it's my, my YouTube channel, my my Kickstarter blog, whatever it is, if I'm excited about it, I'll sustain it. And if I'm not excited about it, if I stop being excited about it, I, I stop doing it. So I found the things that I'm excited about and I found how often I want to do them to remain excited about it. Like my YouTube videos, I do three a week and I do two short ones and one long ones and one long video. And I enjoy that. If I tried to do five long videos a week, I would no longer get joy out of that. I would, I would stop enjoying it. So I kind of found that sweet spot. Have you found that for yourself too? Like if you, if you recorded 10 of these podcasts a day when you get burned out, like what, what is the sweet spot for the, the amount of

Vance Crowe [00:42:59] Contract? No, wouldn't even been blink. I mean, you

Jamey Stegmaier [00:43:01] And

Vance Crowe [00:43:02] I'm the same way about the finding ways to delegate the parts that become uninteresting. Yeah. So for a while, I, I did every single aspect of the podcast where I would go and I would edit it, and I would do all the little work. And eventually I came to the thing of I've learned everything I need to learn for that. This part of it. It was important that I did it, but I don't want to do it anymore. And I think the hardest thing for me about doing the podcast is not over, over overreaching, because In order to do a really interesting conversation, I have to be alert and awake and, and have myself or because if I'm distracted, then my ability to listen to you doesn't work. And so for me, it's don't push the other things in my life so hard that they make this thing crash. And I, and the way that I solve that is by having as many patterns and routines as possible. And, and like I had asked you that question before about your younger self, my younger self would absolutely hate how many routines and patterns I have and how much I won't let myself stop, but I wake up at this time and I

Jamey Stegmaier [00:44:10] Take

Vance Crowe [00:44:10] Care of the baby at this time, and I exercise it this time, and I have to do it in order that the thing that I love the most, having a conversation with a total stranger, it, it, it gets to be at, its, its absolute maximum.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:44:23] That's awesome. And that's a, that's a nice outward way of focusing of thinking about that too. That ultimately you are, I mean, you're thinking about yourself there, but you're also thinking about the, the random stranger that you're having a conversation with are, are you gonna go into this conversation tired because of all these other things that you have to deal with? Or do you find the structure so that you can be at your, your best self when you have these conversations? That's awesome. I like that you do that.

Vance Crowe [00:44:43] Yeah. And I find, and I think like yours is a good example, I find that it's good for me to be a little afraid, right? Like if I'm doing interviews where I'm like, ah, this one's gonna be in the bag, it's gonna be really easy. Or then I find it's probably gonna be boring for me. And it, and I think it tends to be boring, but the conversations when I'm like, I don't know anything about games. I, I mean maybe this is a 10 minute conversation and then we just, you know, get bored and, and walk away. So for me, I, in order for that to stay, in order for me to be up on the edge of chaos, which is where the wave is the most fun, it has to be something I'm a little afraid of.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:45:19] That's interesting. I had a little fear there. I experienced that. I, I would say on the, on the meta level in terms of if I fail, my company fails, my source of income fails and I fail a number of, of other people that, that depend on, on sto Meyer games. I don't know if I feel that every day, but I feel the pressure to move forward to always have a, a next step to plan ahead, to have progression and to ultimately succeed and at least some of the products that we produce.

Vance Crowe [00:45:46] So it has to be difficult as you've built a business that is as, I mean, from what it sounds like, very stable, very strong. You've built it up. So in order to continue to have that being on the edge means, do you have to take bigger risks? Like how do you keep that, how do you keep finding that edge of chaos for yourself?

Jamey Stegmaier [00:46:08] I think it, it, i I, I don't know if it comes down to chaos necessarily or even bigger risks, but I think the game industry has grown quite a bit. It's harder to stand out now, basically. And so if I want to create a new product and we don't release many new products, we release maybe one or two new games a year at most. I need it to be something special. I, I I, I only choose games that I think will be games that we can reprint for years. 'cause we put so much effort into creating that initial product. I don't want it to just be one that we sell, one print run of. So I, I want it to be one that will reprint for a long, long time that will be sustainable. 'cause it's much easier to hit reprint than to spend all that time and effort on, on the initial product. So it's really a continued search for products that will, that will stand out and be, and stand out in a sustainable way, which is, there's no magical formula for it. It, it's, sometimes it's hit and miss, but I kind of just do my best to figure out what I think will, will fit that mold.

Vance Crowe [00:47:12] Do you like, are you now at the place where you are kind of a gravity, well, I mean a, a, a name well enough that people come to you with good ideas, whereas if you're just getting started, you know, how do you find new ideas? I don't know. It's like you have to get invited.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:47:27] I think it is a lot harder. Yeah. Yeah. I, I rarely go out and seek out games from other designers. We have a submission form on our website where designers come to us and say, Hey, we, we want still my game or I want still my games to publish my game. Which is great. We, we have the luxury of that. I also have the luxury of a lot of volunteers. It's actually a weird industry in that there are a lot of people who want to volunteer to just be a part of my company or, or, and be a part of whatever publisher they're really passionate about. They volunteer to proofread, they volunteer to play test. I do pay them to do these things. But at the, the, the initial part of it is they say, I want to do this. I want, I want to help you out at the next convention. That to me is really cool. Do you see that in many other industries that you

Vance Crowe [00:48:09] Yeah, actually, I was just thinking about that, that, that at its core, the places that are the most successful are those that have a wide enough opening of we're building this together, that people can see themselves in it. And when it's the idea that they are contributing their time is only the part that they're saying, well, I wanna be a part of it, which I like. I think that that's really important and I think that it also requires a great deal of humility on the part of the person that is putting things together. Because you could be like, Nope, it's mine and I don't really, you know, like, yeah, of course. I think everybody from the outside could be like, yeah, but you know, now you're getting free labor and you said you paid for it. But, but I think at its core you're also opening up so that they can see themselves being a part of your brand, and that requires humility because you, you want it to be yours or you could want it to be totally yours and you have all this fame, but you've opened it up wide enough that people see themselves in that portrait.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:49:08] Yeah, I, I think it, it, it's, you have to strike a little bit of a balance there. I think it's good to have a vision and that, and, and to have a, something that drives you. I, I certainly have, you know, I'm, I'm driven to bring joy to tabletops worldwide. That's my goal. But, but I, I found very early on that people know more things about games than I do. I, as many games as I've played as many things that I know people have played different games. That's one of the reasons I have my YouTube channel. On my YouTube channel. I talk about one game a couple times a week. I talk about specific game and I say, this is the thing I love about it. Tell me your thoughts on this game, or Tell me about other games that you've played. And inevitably in the comments I learned so much from other games that I should play or could play or, or don't need to play because someone describes the cool thing about it that I need to learn from it. So yeah, just to have had that constant flow of input, input from our, from our ambassadors, that's our volunteer program, and just people who take the time to comment on a blog or comment on, on a YouTube channel. It's extremely helpful. Do you, do you have that sense of community through your podcast? Do people comment and join the conversation?

Vance Crowe [00:50:09] Yeah,

Jamey Stegmaier [00:50:09] So

Vance Crowe [00:50:10] During Coronavirus, I, you know, I had gone from traveling all over the world to give speeches to like, now I'm at home and my wife is pregnant. And I was very concerned about coronavirus. So I started cranking out three podcasts a day sometimes, and I would, oh wow. Call up some of the world's leading experts that could tell us things that you weren't seeing in the news. And suddenly I started having people saying, Hey, can I contribute? Hey, can I donate money? Hey, I, I want to help you do this. And it was like a, a very surreal experience because I'd never done anything where my work people wanted to write themselves into it. And so I ended up starting a group called the Articulate Ventures Network, where people were like, they actually join, it's, there's a website for it, and they can have this community. And they, we have like places where you can practice public speaking. We did a movie night last night. We have a book club. And it has been a, a real experience for me because when I went from, I'm in charge of the Articulate Ventures network to, I've got a vision for where we can go, but if you know how to build community better than me, then hop in here. You can run this group and you can run that group. And I think it's, it's, it's been far more enriching experience than if I was just at the top of the mountain being like, here is my group.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:51:28] But

Vance Crowe [00:51:28] It also took me letting go of, of being, you know, I want it to look like this. I want it to sound like this. Yeah. So to me, hearing you as a large business owner describe this, I, I mean it really, it makes me really admire you in, in a big way.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:51:44] Well, thanks. And, and I can totally relate to what, what you just said as well. I, I, I experienced that actually with Facebook groups initially. Well, there are many other examples, but Facebook groups of something have become a huge part of the community building aspect of, of my company. But initially it was someone that came to me and said, Hey Jamie, you don't have any Facebook groups. I really love this one game of yours. Can I create a Facebook group for that game? And I was like, I was at the time, I was like, I don't wanna, man, this is one more thing to manage more, more time to spend. I don't wanna manage that, but sure, go ahead and do it. Thanks for offering that. And that I, I ended up becoming a lot more involved than I thought I would because the community there was awesome. And we now have a group for each of our games. So if you love one of our games, you can join that Facebook group. It's become a huge part of the company. And it started with a volunteer who said, I wanna do this, I wanna do this. And even now, the involvement in those, in those game groups are largely people who ask like, rule questions or wanna share a, a fun photo that they took during a game. And other people are chiming in with answers to those questions. I don't have to be nearly as involved. Like if, if we didn't have any volunteers, I would spend all of my time answering rules questions. But because we have so many people who know my games just as well as I do, they're, they're supporting. Like it's, it's self fulfilling, self building. 'cause they're, they're helping the game help helping people learn the games and play the games. That's awesome.

Vance Crowe [00:52:59] So I can see you like getting excited right now. Yeah. And I guess maybe one of the ways that we should end this is tell me about a game that you care a lot about. Something that you put out into the world that you think, this is something that I was really excited to have done and I'm, it can be on anything. Sell me a really great game.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:53:19] Well, I, I could tell, I could use any of our games as an, as an example. I could probably use any many games from other publishers as, as an example. But I'm gonna pick one of ours since we're talking about my company a little bit today. And it's that game wingspan that I mentioned. I, I love that wingspan appeals to gamers and appeals to birders. But one of my favorite things about Wingspan is how it has seemed to have inspired women to get more into the game design community and the game industry because it is a game designed by a woman. She won. This designer, Elizabeth Hargrave won the, a giant German award for this game last year. And all three of the artists who illustrated the game are, are women. And the graphic designer is a woman. So all these names are on the front of the box. And I've heard so many stories from young women who maybe felt excluded from the game industry by, by nothing intentional. But in an industry that is full of it, it it has been dominated by men for a long time. Seeing these names on this box, that has been a powerful experience from what I've heard to young women who say, oh, this game has done really well. It is driven by women. I wanna be a part of this community. I wanna be, I want to be a game designer. I wanna play games. And that I, I love that idea that games can be used to include people, to invite people to a table, to invite people to an experience. And I think Wingspan did a great job of doing that to a SEC sector who had been somewhat excluded from the game industry

Vance Crowe [00:54:47] For while. And so tell me about the actual game. If we were gonna sit down and play wingspan, how would we do that?

Jamey Stegmaier [00:54:54] The idea in wingspan is that you are, you have, there are a ton of bird cards over two, nearly 200 bird cards. Each one is unique and you are simply on your turn. You're either playing a bird card or you are activating some birds that you've already played. So you have this, I don't know how to describe, but it's a player mat. It's an interface where you're, where you're, you're playing these cards in front of you and they, they remain there. And once you have these bird cards, you are activating their abilities. It's a little tough to explain without actually showing you, but actually I have the expansion here in front of me. This is the new expansion that we released. This, this is the, the, we do one expansion per continent. So this expansion, you mentioned New Zealand earlier, so this has some New Zealand birds in it, but that's the idea. There, there are just four simple actions that you can take in the game and you're, you're choosing one of those actions on your turn.

Vance Crowe [00:55:42] So Jamie Meyer, I am really grateful that you agreed to do this. And this has been, it was, it was the educate for me 'cause I had no idea how this would go. But if people wanted to learn more about Stone Meyer games or or watch some of your reviews, where would they go to do that?

Jamey Stegmaier [00:55:59] Yeah, the hub for All Stone Meyer games content is stone meyer games.com. And so that's where you, if you wanna learn about our games, you can go there. If you want to learn about game design, my YouTube channel is linked there. If you want to learn about Kickstarter or, or I write about a lot about Kickstarter and crowdfunding and entrepreneurship on my blog. That's also on stu meyer games do.com. So any of that stuff is, is there at the, the website.

Vance Crowe [00:56:24] Great. Well, Jamie Ste Meyer, it was great to have you on the podcast.

Jamey Stegmaier [00:56:28] Vance, this was wonderful. Thank you so much for having me.