Jackie Joyner-Kersee | The Vance Crowe Podcast | Episode 45

Vance Crowe [00:00:01] This is Philip Lu, a commodity futures broker working in Stewart, Florida, and you are listening to the Vance Crow podcast. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. This week I sat down with American Track and Field, great Jackie Joyner Kersee, who I think arguably is one of the greatest track and field athletes of all time. She, of course, won three Olympic gold medals, numerous national titles, and broke many, many records along the way if you were a child of the early eighties or early. She is somebody that was splashed across Wheaties boxes and someone that we saw in sports reels and exciting. I, I don't know, you just kind of saw her everywhere you looked. And so I found myself as a 38-year-old man doing this podcast sitting across from person that really was kind of indistinguishable from somebody like Michael Jordan to me in my childhood. And it was a surreal experience, and I'm really grateful that we were able to sit down and do this. And I think that one of the best parts about this interview is just how real and open she was about her experiences, about what she went through, about her perspectives, about what's going on in the world. Today. I found myself actually opening up to Miss Ey more than I probably do to any other guests, and it's probably because of the way she makes you feel when you sit across the table from her.

Vance Crowe [00:01:34] If you're not watching this on YouTube and you're just listening, you can hear her smile and that smile that she gives away so freely makes you feel like you wanna share and that you're connected with her. So in today's wild and chaotic experiences that we're all going through right now, I really hope you just sit back and relax and enjoy this conversation with one of the world's greatest athletes. Before I go to that interview, I just wanna let anybody know that is interested in participating in the as the Crow Flies Book Club, which we do every month. We are right now reading The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, and it is a very short book, but just like last month's book, just the fact that it's short does not mean you can breeze through it quickly. There is a lot packed into this book, so if you're interested, pick up the book. There's still plenty of time to join in. I hope that you do, and it's a really good thing to do as you are thinking about your social distancing that I know people are doing right now. Anyway, no more introduction. Please enjoy this interview with Jackie Joyner ey, and know that I hold all of you in my heart. It is because of you that I get to have these experiences with somebody as great as Ms. Ey. And so know that I am grateful to you for listening, and I hope that we had a conversation worth hearing. Jackie Joyner Kersee, welcome to the podcast.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:02:59] Thanks for having me.

Vance Crowe [00:03:02] I've never met a superstar athlete, and particularly one that has reached the levels of glory that you have. And I, I'm, I am actually thought quite a bit about what would be my first question that I would ask somebody that's won. How many gold medals have you won?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:03:20] So I've won three gold medals, one silver, and two bronze, six Olympic medals in total.

Vance Crowe [00:03:26] The first time you crossed a finish line and it was clear that you had won a gold medal, what did that feel like?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:03:35] Yo, before I even got to my second Olympic games, my first Olympic games was a real learning experience. I was picked to win the goal and had never dealt with injury. And mentally I just wasn't strong enough physically. I had the ability to win a gold medal. And so I left my first Olympic games in Los Angeles, California in 1984, that if God blessed me to make another Olympic team, that I wanted to be the toughest athlete out there mentally. And having an opportunity to make my second Olympic team in 1988 and winning my first Olympic gold medal, it was a dream come true, not only for me, but I thought about the people who helped me and who believed in me and who saw the potential in me as a 9-year-old and, and just the tears of joy being able to stand on the top podium and hear the national anthem and be celebrated by many, but how great it was that I felt we were able to do that. And so it is, it was really one of the unbelievable feelings in the world.

Vance Crowe [00:04:50] If, if what you thought of four years earlier was that you didn't have the mental toughness, does that mean that you were punishing yourself for the next four years? What does mental toughness mean when you're try and achieve at the highest heights, but you can't just go out and do it tomorrow, you've gotta wait four years for that to happen, right?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:05:07] The mental toughness, it's a process, and you learn through those processes. You learn that in athletics. Sometimes you don't believe you should get injured, but it comes with what you do. Asking my body to go through seven different tasks, and not to come up lame or come up injured is not a part of your mental process. But when, when it's all said and done, things happen and it's really how do you become the best? How are you able to block out distractions? How are you able, how are you able to pull in the things that you need to do to be successful? So it wasn't that I was punishing myself, it was motivation to not to ever feel that way because my coaches, my physical, physical therapists and the people I work with believed in me more than I believed in myself. So

Vance Crowe [00:05:59] Really,

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:06:00] Yes, because they told me I could do it, but every time I'm looking down at my left hamstring leg, I'm injured. You know, it's, my leg is heavily bandage, something must be wrong. So in my mind, I'm going through this process of not in, for me, not thinking like a champion looking for every excuse not to get the job done, instead of reversing that thinking like a champion willing to pull every muscle in my body to get the job done. And so that's where I realized mentally I wasn't, it wasn't tough, you know, it wasn't that I couldn't have won the gold medal, or it's just that I fed myself negative thoughts, and I performed like I was thinking.

Vance Crowe [00:06:44] It shocks me to think about that somebody at your level is like, Hey, the, the mental part of this game is actually a huge part of it. It's what divides, you know, somebody from getting a gold. I think of this voice when I go for a jog in the morning, right? I wake up and there's this voice in my head that says, it's kind of cold out. You don't have to go, or it's icy. You might get injured. Or like, you know, you ran pretty hard yesterday. And I call it the voice of resistance that I have to overcome.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:07:13] Yes. Do

Vance Crowe [00:07:13] You have a voice of resistance?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:07:15] Oh, yeah. I think we all have a voice of resistance. It's how much do we give into that voice? And that's where you have the power to change that voice and have that voice of acceptance. Like, oh, I can do this. I will do this. You know, what's the affirmation behind what it is that you're trying to accomplish? And that's what I had to start. I think I, first, I had to look in the mirror and acknowledge that I didn't do what I was supposed to do. I wasn't gonna allow anyone to make excuses for me. So that allowed me to grow and understand that this is just a part of the process, a part of my growth in trying to become, you know, one of the best.

Vance Crowe [00:07:52] I definitely can empathize with the idea that you have people around you that they're like, Hey, that's good enough. Hey, you tried really hard. And if you listen to their kindness, which is what they're trying to do, you won't get where you have to go.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:08:04] Right? I, you know, I, I think kindness is great. I think a pat on the back, but the reality of it is, is that you can do better. And that don't accept the expectations of what you have for yourself. Don't allow them to be minimized from someone saying, oh, you, you're doing good. When you know, on the inside, you have a lot more to offer. And that's when you have to have that true conversation with yourself. Because if you want mediocracy, then that's what you're going to get. But if you want to, to me, if you wanna be the best or the standard of excellence, is that there is never time for resting. You know? Okay, that was good, but how can I do this better? With the understanding that you, you, you'll find balance in there. But just knowing that I could give just a little more,

Vance Crowe [00:08:56] Did you ever have to worry about getting yourself into a position where you were, I, I don't, I don't have a better word for it. Did that where you hated yourself or where you didn't, you know, like, because I, in order to first get over my voice of resistance, I basically called myself names and, you know, fought myself to get out there. Is that what you're doing? Or have you transcended that? Because I'd rather get over my voice of resistance by not yelling at myself.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:09:19] Right. No, I transcended myself. I, I never spoke ill on myself. I always believed that I could do it. I always believed that you have, you can do this. You know, I'll always say that you can turn a doubter into a believer, but you have to believe. And so for me, it was always inspiring, motivating, uplifting myself, saying, come on girl, you know, you could do this. Come on. You know, just talking to myself and like, okay, now what, what was that? What was that? What did you do? You know,

Vance Crowe [00:09:53] One of the things that I've noticed, I watched a, I read your biography, a phenomenal book, and that's why I'm, I'm reluctant to try and lay out your life story because it was done so well in that book. And you have a very complicated story. But one of the other things I did was get on YouTube and watch you perform, and then I watch some people talking about you. One of the things I noticed is that you and your brother have a natural tendency to smile all the time. Right? You're doing it right now. Yeah. Is that a natural disposition? Have you always been a happy person?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:10:25] You know, I wanna believe we have always been happy people. And, and for us, it's like a smile doesn't cost anything. The smile is the invitation that I am open. You can talk to me, I'm approachable. You know? And because sometimes when you, at a certain level that people think you unapproachable, and, and that's not my personality, you know? And you

Vance Crowe [00:10:49] Gave me a hug the first time we met, I

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:10:51] Was shocked. Shocked. So that's just me. And, you know, and my brother, he's the same way. And it's, it's, you know, and some people always say, oh, you know, and, and then sometimes some people might take my smile as a weakness or for granted, but I'm a very focused and driven person, and I know that I could turn on the, like in athletics, I, I know that I could laugh and joke with you, but when it comes down to performing, okay, all jokes aside, we have to perform now. Afterwards. Yeah, we gonna go back and we gonna have fun. But that's just support of who we are. And hopefully it makes people feel that you, you are, it's okay to come in our space.

Vance Crowe [00:11:42] I noticed that I was watching you do high jump and you looked very serious. And actually, as you're thinking about, as you're describing this, you must have been having this conversation with yourself about every little piece of the movement to be able to launch yourself up in the air.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:11:59] Yes. High jump is one of those tricky events, was really tough for me, even though I performed well in eyes of others. But it was one that I really had to focus on. And, and not to the point where I would get paralysis by analysis. It's more about how I execute. I know my run, I know I need to stay outside the bar. I know I need to lay over, but not all that going through my mind at one time. 'cause I would visualize, I would see myself doing my run. I see myself doing my takeoff. I would see myself laying out over the bar. And, but it, it, it's, it's a very key event in the seven event discipline, I did Heptathlon and

Vance Crowe [00:12:41] Which is what made everybody recognize that you're the greatest athlete of all time, because you can't just be good at one thing.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:12:48] Right? And so just imagine going through the seven different disciplines, and it's a rollercoaster on one, one of, one moment you're on a high because you ran hurdles. Well then all of a sudden, the key event and the longest of the seven events is the high jump, and that's how you score the most points. And I have to be on target. If not, then I'm like, oh, spirits are down, but I still have to stay up because I still have five more events I, I gotta complete.

Vance Crowe [00:13:17] Yeah. Constant wave. If you stay on the top of the wave too long, you get exuberant. You're not focused. You stay down in the, in the bottom. Yes.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:13:23] So you have to find that, that balance, that, you know, when do I exert my energy? Do I have the butterfly? Do I find myself laughing and joking too much that I allow that energy to escape, you know, instead of allowing that energy to escape through my performance.

Vance Crowe [00:13:40] It strikes me, I've been visiting the St. Louis Art Museum several times in the last month, and I've really started to be drawn towards masterpieces. Like there, there's a water lilies by Monet. And you can tell that this is a thing that in order for him to have painted, that he had to spend decades getting ready. Your genius, your mastery had to come by the time you were 19 years old, you know, 22 years old. And then your body doesn't allow you to keep going. What is it like to have a master level paintbrush, but be contained within our mortal bodies that change and get older?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:14:21] You know, it, it comes with the territory, it comes with the growth of understanding that even though the mastery of, of, of a painting that takes years to the beauty of it that comes out. So as a young girl at nine years of age and not being one of the best runners and not really understanding what the Olympics is all about, having an opportunity to go to the Olympics, and you realize that it's just not about the physical, you know, it's the mental capacity that we spoke of earlier, but still you where others might think you, you at the pinnacle because the event, you know, making it to the Olympic Games, it's the pinnacle for an athlete competing in Olympic sports. But you also understand that your body transition, you know, and going through the transition, dealing with injury. So now as you continue on trying to reach second Olympics or third Olympics, is that the more you become a veteran, the more you realize that it's more quality than quantity, then you start finding and understanding that some of the things that I didn't know at 22 technique-wise, I don't have to spend a lot more time on that.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:15:52] So now I'm better to do this at an efficiency level, much better than previous years when you had to grind in and grind out and day in and day out, you still spending a lot more time on it, but it might be more of working on the things you have no control over the things that might happen that would cause you to lose your focus.

Vance Crowe [00:16:16] It really is a mastery then.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:16:18] Yes. It, it is. I

Vance Crowe [00:16:19] I think that that's something that is not natural for the, the watcher of the event. The person that's not doing hurdles. It, it, because what it looks like is they had a natural ability and then they, they practiced a lot, but you don't, at least I had never really thought about the mental part of this.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:16:39] No, the, the mental training and, and the physical and the combination of both is that when what you see is what appears to be easy, but it's extremely difficult. So just like a masterpiece when we say, oh, I can go home and do that, and then when you start like,

Vance Crowe [00:17:03] Wow, you start on it, right? You're like, wait a

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:17:05] Minute, you know, I watch some of these home network show. I'm like, oh, I could do that. Yeah. Right? And it's the same way in athletics, because there's been years of training, years of trying to just to perfect the angle which you need to, to run, or the drive that I need to get the trajectory to get the height so I can land in the pit at 23 feet, along with the combination of the speed. But you work on that, so it becomes a rhythm where you, where the audience, audience see athleticism and see great talent, but you have to work on having that talent look easy. And it's just not you, it's your coach because your coaches are your eyes and they're the ones that's telling you what you need to work on so you can per perfect it. And you, you, it never becomes a perfection. You, you never reach that level. But what you want is consistency and having that consistency would bring the results that you have been working towards. So

Vance Crowe [00:18:15] You never reach that level. Like, is that, is that like painful to know that, that that perfection is always elusive? Or like, how, how do you keep going when you know you'll never get there?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:18:28] Because I think that, I think sometime you lose sight of saying you've gotta be perfect, it is not about being perfect. You know, the the realization is that you will never be perfect, you know? So there's always room for growth. And, and that's my, been my philosophy to know that as long as there's room for growth, then there's room for me to always be a student of my game, student of what I'm trying to learn from, from my coaches.

Vance Crowe [00:18:57] And did, did getting on Wheaties boxes and the cover of Sports Illustrated, did that cloud you in any way? I mean, I could imagine it would cloud me if all of a sudden I was there, I'd be like, I've arrived.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:19:08] This is all

Vance Crowe [00:19:09] I need to get to.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:19:10] You know, I don't, the accolades and the, oh, the accomplishments that, you know, to be on the weedy box or to be, you know, on the cover of Sports Illustrated is that it makes it much difficult because you are a target and being a target, your focus is that you have to continue to work hard because you can never have the attitude. For me, it was never having that attitude, oh, I have arrived. Oh my gosh, if I lived that life or if I trained that way, there's no way I think I could ever continue to reach some of the goals I had set for myself. So for me, I was never satisfied as long as I was still training and trying to compete.

Vance Crowe [00:19:56] But it has to be so tempting. I mean, that's like the devil sitting there saying, look at all these people. They, they agree, you're doing great, you're doing fine.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:20:05] I think the temptation comes from not having a, a grounded foundation, you know? And, and I think for me, I'm always reminded of my humble beginnings, you know, and to never take anything for granted and to know that everything that I have achieved, I've earned it, but I earned it with the support of, of many people. So as long as I'm out there, I always had to be in the best shape of my life, you know? So if coach saying, be here at this time, I'm never gonna be running late because I respect the time of the people who are devote time to help me become a much better athlete. So for me it was, it was never to lose sight of why I'm on the Wheaties, or why I am on the cover of Sports Illustrated is because we worked so hard. But then as long as I'm going to compete and be in this arena, I have to continue to work hard because just like someone world record that I wanted, there's someone that wants the world record that I have. So if I'm gonna be out there, I better be out there in the best shape of my life, not saying, oh yeah, I can go lay on the beach today and take a few months off. And

Vance Crowe [00:21:19] The, the first time you kind of splashed back into my mind, so I, when as I was a kid, you were like, you know, larger than life, but then as you came outta the headlines, I, I moved on with my life, but I'm driving from Illinois into St. Louis, and I see a sign for the East St. Louis Jackie Joyner Kersee Foundation. And my first reaction was, she got out of there. Why the hell would she go back? I don't, I don't, I mean, I don't, that maybe says something terrible about me, but, but it, it's actually what I thought. Like, you escaped what to a lot of people looks like hell, why back?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:21:59] You know, the question to me was never, why, why go back. It was like, why wouldn't I? And the reason it was, why wouldn't I? Because there are a lot of great people there, and that the environment and the circumstance and shouldn't divine the people. And for me, I was able to be exposed to sports, good education, people who cared for me. And in return, I wanted to do the same. Because when I was growing up, anyone prominence or anyone that had done something outstanding would never say they were from that, from the community. And I just thought that, oh my gosh, if, you know, if I make it to the Olympics, I'm gonna tell 'em I'm from East St. Louis, Illinois, you know, and I, I, I didn't quite understand it, you know? And, and it wasn't until I was doing an interview after one of the Olympic games, and, and, and a reporter asked me that, you know, why would you say you from East St. Louis? Because it can taint your image. I'm like, huh, what do you mean? That's my, that's where I'm from. So for me, letting people know where I was from and not being confused with Illinois or East St. Louis being in Illinois versus the east side of St. Louis, I'm like, no, it is in a whole nother state, you know?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:23:32] Well,

Vance Crowe [00:23:33] I, when I think of East St. Louis, that would've been something that as a kid you'd hear, that's a dark place. And then if I have my, if my maps software on my phone routes me through East St. Louis, I become scared

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:23:48] Because

Vance Crowe [00:23:48] I've been told this is a dark place, it's dangerous, don't be there. Is that accurate or is that only part of the picture? How should I think about that?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:23:57] You know what, I think it's, it's accurate from the standpoint of, of the image that other people might have and, and also accurate from the conversation. Maybe it's more the conversation that people feel for whatever reason, that to be threatened. But if, if you really take the time and come and see that it's really a great place and there's great people, I mean, people would be willing to help you, a stranger, you know, off the street that you would be just as welcome in East St. Louis as you are, you know, in St. Louis, you know, and

Vance Crowe [00:24:45] Well, so we, the, the first time that I've had an experience in East St. Louis was when I came down to your foundation, and I actually used to work with kids that came from similar background in Milwaukee, but for whatever reason, in my mind, it didn't translate to East St. Louis. But when the kids start walking into the building, I realize like, I've made a big mistake because I imagined that my fear of East St. Louis will be manifest in those kids. And they come in as sweet and as excited and as happy as can possibly be. What are those kids facing that, that work at your founda that come into your foundation every day?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:25:21] You know, they're facing, oh gosh, just poverty is, is kills all communities, but we have the ability to embrace them and to bring them into a, what I call a, a safe environment where not only are we able to nurture them through feeding them, but then also nurture them and helping them to become stronger individuals through their education, you know, through our afterschool program, through my winning in life curriculum or teaching them to be leaders beyond the feel of athletics, but just being great human beings that want to do great things. But we are just a small portion of that because having a, you know, a strong school system, you know, some might go home and they might not have a strong family background, you know,

Vance Crowe [00:26:30] So just to be, I kind of jumped to the, a little bit ahead. You have a foundation that is for students after school, and it is athletics and homework assistance. And you were talking about your leadership curriculum. So the kids get done with school and, and they may have several hours where they would not see a parent if they went home maybe all the way into the night. So they come here, they get a snack or sometimes a meal.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:26:53] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:26:53] And then they get their studies done, and then there's all kinds of sports facilities and you, along with other partners, help get that program going?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:27:03] Yes. So we, this year we celebrate 20 years of the Jackie Joyner Kersee Center. Our gala would be in October to, you know, bring it all together. But March would mark 20 years of the Jackie Joyner Kersee Center being open. And so what we've been able to do is to do, we do door to door transportation, we pick our students up from school, bring them to the center, they come in, get a snack, get a, a warm meal, then they do their enrichment. And enrichment is around some the homework help. We have a reading specialist wanna make sure that each and every one of our kids can read at grade level, try to see where they are. Some might do some tutorial help. We have our, our STEM lab working with them with math. We also have our designing bills, some our students with working with one of our other partners, building a trophy case, you know, and also have the, the fitness a part of that. And so we use sports as a hook to get 'em in the door, but we know that they need more than just how to shoot a basketball, you know, or how to run fast, you know, that to me is very important that they are able to read and they can comprehend what they're reading, how can we help prepare them for their journey of life? And that's where winning in Life comes in. The curriculum build around 14 different principles. What do critical thinking look like for a 6-year-old versus a 17-year-old?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:28:41] You know, being able to walk in their shoes where they are today. But then also being able to have a, a founder like Jackie Joyner Kersee who grew up in this area, not looking at Jackie Joyner at that time, the Olympic champion, or Jackie Joyner Kersee, you know, but Jackie Joyner, when she was nine years old, that went to some of the same schools and was taught by some of the same individuals. You know, what goal setting did she, she applied to setting her goals and that's why I'm back in that community.

Vance Crowe [00:29:16] Well, it's like you found a path towards something else and instead of just being like, well, see if you can find it, you've actually gone back there and been like, why don't we put sign posts here and why don't we say, hey, you know, you're going to hit these types of crossroads.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:29:31] This

Vance Crowe [00:29:32] Is how I handled it, which is a hell of a help, right? Then somebody doesn't have to discover that whole path on their own.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:29:38] Right. But then it's also important for me, for them to discover their own path, you know, because sometime the, you know, the road least travel or the road that you travel is the most resistant, you know? And sometime they help, it's right there. And I know as a young person, you know, my father's like, okay, I want you to go to UCLA, I want you to do that. I was like, I only because he wanted me to go, you know, not knowing that's, that's what's good for him. But kids or young people gonna be young people, you know, because we deal in a age where social media, where when I was coming up, I didn't have to deal with social media. I didn't have to deal with someone, you know, just some of the derogatory things that happened with bullying and all of those things dealt with it, but not in the same, I guess, context.

Vance Crowe [00:30:28] I mean, like

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:30:28] Exactly where you can,

Vance Crowe [00:30:29] You, at the end of the day, you can go home. Right. And if your dad doesn't want somebody to come up to the front door or take a phone call, it's not coming through.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:30:35] Exactly.

Vance Crowe [00:30:36] Right,

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:30:36] Right, right. So,

Vance Crowe [00:30:39] So a few weeks ago, my wife and I discovered that we are pregnant. And it was a very exciting moment.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:30:46] Congratulations.

Vance Crowe [00:30:47] Thank you. And she actually said something to me that it was shocking because she said, okay, all the tests came back and I was like, tell me what I wanna know. And she goes, it's a baby girl. And I've been thinking about this pretty deeply for the last few weeks. It, it may sound surprising, but in my 38 years, I had never imagined what it would be like to be the father of a daughter. I really only thought about existence as I knew it. You know, what are my hero stories? What are the challenges I went through and I was, I terrified is probably too strong of a word, but really startled by the fact that now I have to view the world through the eyes of a little girl. And I'm wondering, I'm almost emo emotional here. Like, I I, since I have you here, I actually would love to know what's different about a little, about a little girl than a little boy.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:31:40] You know, I, I, I think that, I think both little girl, little boy, you know, fathers always seem like they, they want the boy, but you know, just the, the loving nature of, I think you get it from both, but I, I think the, when I think of our, my time of growing up, how girls didn't have the same opportunities, you know, and how we wanted to do sports, but there wasn't a pathway to sports. Like it was just for boys. And, but now it's, it's almost if the world is seeing that young girls who have become women, that we have so much to offer. And I think in bringing that young girl, she's gonna be a daddy's little girl, you know, because all girls, you know, gravitate to they daddy and, you know, moms we there 'cause we always nurturing and all of that. But, you know, but I just think that what a blessing for you all and

Vance Crowe [00:32:47] Oh, we, we were very, very excited. What, when you think about the coaches that approached you and were helpful to you, you were a girl growing up in an, in an, in an environment where there hadn't been very many girls in athletics. What did they do right? What did they do to be able to get you on this path?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:33:07] Yeah, I wouldn't say coach, like Coach Nino Fno, who, who is my age group coach, who still is a part of my life today, who's the winning track coach, you know, in East St. Louis history, he's still there. But it was that they always made us feel like we belong without us even knowing that we didn't belong. So, and, and that it was always a pathway. Even when we had the combination of both boys and girls and the coaches decided that they were just going to no longer coach girls, coach Fno was the one that stepped up and said, no, I will coach girls because there is a place for them too to participate. So, and but when you're younger, you don't realize the impact of that because had they just said no 'cause they didn't have the funding, but it was just, okay, we just gonna help fund the boys. Girls just won't be doing this anymore. And they found a way, you know, they were pack us all up in the vans. They own personal vans, they would give up their weekends. You know, we would have parents.

Vance Crowe [00:34:16] You were going long ways away

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:34:18] To

Vance Crowe [00:34:18] Get your track.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:34:19] Yes, yes. You know, and it was fun for us. 'cause we're like, that's most we gonna get out of town. We going to

Vance Crowe [00:34:24] Pika tens

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:34:25] And Lincoln, Nebraska, you know, but

Vance Crowe [00:34:26] That's an adult that's giving up their weekend. And they Yes. And they're driving and they're responsible and it's not like it's fun. They're not going to the bar at night or

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:34:33] They're,

Vance Crowe [00:34:34] They're managing and keeping children alive.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:34:36] And so, and that's why, you know, you don't realize role models are, are right before your eyes. Because what they were able to teach me as well as a lot of us, is what we came back and gave back. So as a young person and as an adult, you don't think that they're watching you. They are. And what you're saying to them, it becomes a part of their DNA. So then as you transition in life, you only regurgitate what you've been taught or what you learned from someone. So those coaches and, and parents are role models. So if you behave in a way that's not becoming, then that child will eventually behave the same way.

Vance Crowe [00:35:26] Yeah. They don't have another way to construct it.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:35:29] No, because this is someone I look up to, you know, you're my coach, you, you know. So I think that what they, what Coach Fno was able to do is surround us with strong women and, and just strong leaders that we didn't even know was leaders. You know, if he couldn't go, then one of the other coaches was going, my teammate Deborah Thurston and I, we made it to the Junior Olympic Championship. We had to go to Yakima, Washington. That's

Vance Crowe [00:35:54] A long way from East St. Louis. And,

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:35:56] You know, I had never flown before and then my ears were killing me and I was crying and, and it was like, it was really first time nationals and I, and I win a national championship, run my lifetime best in the 800 meters. And it was like, wow, okay, I wanna do this pentathlon.

Vance Crowe [00:36:17] What would, what would you have been if you had, not, if somebody hadn't said like, grab this person and point 'em in the direction of athletics. Was that just who you were destined to be?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:36:27] I, I believe so, but I, I thought I would be a teacher. You know, I always wanted to teach, you know, 'cause I came through a community center and the librarian at that time taught me how to check out books, how to do book reports and, and any young people out there listening, you guys Google everything. But anyway, you know, and so I always saw myself working with seniors, the Meals on Wheels program, doing everything was around teaching, you know, and learning about the anatomy through my anatomy class with Miss Goss, you know, so it was always just learning and then being able to share what I had learned.

Vance Crowe [00:37:14] It's interesting because now you are a teacher, you are sharing what you learned, but on a, on a way bigger scale than, than just a running a third grade class. I mean, there are different, one is the role model that's there in the room and the other one is trying to create this curriculum and this program. Is this what you spend most of your time on? Is this curriculum? I, I mean, I know that you're involved in like, getting internet to kids. Like how are you spending your time now?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:37:40] So I spend the majority of my time, I, I'm I'm the CEO of the R Foundation. But we really have a great team and I, and I think what makes my job easy is that the team that I have, I look good because my team is strong and that a lot of things I can't focus on. But, you know, I might give direction or talk about my vision that they help bring that vision to reality. And I'm very appreciative of that, which allows me to be able to go and do my speaking or make appearances because of the other hat that I've worn for many years. That, but then also being able to do those other events, bring recognition, not so much recognition. Bring awareness about my community work that other people might not be aware of. So having a director over the winning in life makes a huge difference in trying to push that forward. You know, having A-A-C-O-O to help run the operation of the foundation makes a big difference in allowing us to be able to service the families and the work that I believe that would outlive all of us, but having a strong foundation to do that. So for me that I am a task master driven expectations or extremely high because I know no other way, I don't, there's no shortcut.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:39:12] You know, one thing that I truly believe in hard work and commitment. And I believe that when you work hard and you might not see the results right, right away, but when those results start to come in, you're gonna have a greater appreciation for it versus it just happened overnight. So the struggles and all the things that you go through and understanding people and why we all must pull together to make a difference.

Vance Crowe [00:39:38] Yeah, I mean I think this goes along with the mastery of the, you know, you make it look easy when you're at that superstar athlete level, but it actually is a whole lot of time where you didn't know for sure you were gonna get to that pinnacle stage you just said, I know that the best step I can take is the one that gets me further along the path,

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:39:56] Right. And understand and with understanding that consistency is, is very important to me in everything that I do. And that eventually you will have a breakthrough. But you, if you are a person that runs late all the time, then you're gonna run late for that very important meeting because you have already programmed yourself to do that and you're gonna miss out on an opportunity that you didn't even know that opportunity existed. So, and it's the same way like with training and you coming late all the time. Then when the big me come, then all of a sudden they telling you, oh, you missed your, your call time IE having to the one of the guys at the Olympic games in boxing.

Vance Crowe [00:40:39] Wow.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:40:40] You know, and

Vance Crowe [00:40:41] You've done all this work and that one habit that you just didn't pay attention to down

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:40:46] Because you down, right? 'cause you lose sight of you listening to your own clippings that you're so great. And sometimes we get a pass. And earlier when we were talking about just patting people on the back saying no, if you're not hard on that individual in crunch time, and then when they fall short, it's because you get, you have given them a pass saying they did good. Oh you did good. Now when it's time to really show up, they fall apart.

Vance Crowe [00:41:16] You said something in an interview that struck me and it was your husband is you also, your coach was your coach and he was notoriously a very difficult person to work with. But you said with your Jackie Joyner Kirsty smile, I love it that he yells at me. I I love it. You wouldn't accept just anybody yelling at you. Why was him yelling at you something that was was okay? Or, or something you loved?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:41:42] Because I think sometime the yelling is misconstrued and his yelling is more motivational is that he knows that I could do X, Y, Z. So it was just like, I'm talking to my niece one time and she's young. She only know Uncle Bobby as fuzzy loving. And they go, auntie, why is he yelling at you?

Vance Crowe [00:42:03] He's not

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:42:03] Yelling really? He's telling me at the 600 meter mark I need to be at this time. So he's calling out the times he's telling me to move when I have to move. You know, because that's the only voice of all the thousands of people there. I can tune in and I can hear his voice. 'cause I know what we have trained and I know sometimes that I'm a little hardheaded, but I need that type of motivation. He

Vance Crowe [00:42:27] Found a way to give you signal through the noise. And for everybody else it sounded like noise.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:42:32] Exactly.

Vance Crowe [00:42:33] I have a similar experience. My mentor is a 99-year-old man that grew up as an orphan and he's a brilliant man. And when everybody meets him, they love him. They're like, he's so sweet, he's so kind. But when it's just me and him, like, it's like relentless. Yes. You know, like it's, it's, and and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:42:51] Right.

Vance Crowe [00:42:52] But I, if somebody watched the two of us interacting, they would think, why? Why do you do this? Like why do you subject yourself to it? And I'm like, 'cause there's no one else that will do this for me. And if I thought for one second that he did not have my best intention right, then it would be different.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:43:10] Exactly. And that you, and he's pulling the best out of you. And that's what others, you know, they don't see is that this is the way to pull the best out of me because I know you have much more to give. Because if I let you continue to go, then when you run up with someone of equal talent, then they gonna beat you. And then I'm gonna feel like I felt at my job making sure that you were ready. So I'm not going to tell you all the things you want to hear. I'm going to tell you the things that you need to hear so we can get it done. And that's how it is. Because I rather you be crying with me, then all of a sudden you fall short, then the whole public see you crying.

Vance Crowe [00:43:47] Yeah. I mean it's the concept of having a partner that's a worthy adversary.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:43:51] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:43:52] Because I mean, most people that you would've encountered would not have been a worthy adversary to you.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:43:58] N no. Because if you see I, I, I come from that type of background. Coach Fno was like that. And the great thing Coach Fno, he said to me when I got ready to leave high school, they said, it is time for you to go learn from someone else. And that was at the time you don't understand it. But now going through the transition of leaving high school, going to college, and then seeing other student athletes that still was working with their high school coach, that they wouldn't let 'em go when they got to college

Vance Crowe [00:44:31] So they couldn't transcend. That's as

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:44:32] Far as couldn't transcend and wasn't able to learn. And then you wonder, you know, and it's like you are really stopping them from growing. So Coach Forno always show he had my best interest. He said No, I want you to go, I can only teach you so much at a high schooler collegiate level. That's a whole nother level, the Olympic level, that's a whole nother level. Go and learn, come back and share.

Vance Crowe [00:44:57] And you even got to the college level and found there were coaches that didn't care about you.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:45:01] Oh yes. Because you get to the college level and it's about winning. You know, some don't even recognize your talent. You know, that's one thing about when you're in a pool of talent to people all around and I'm a multi inventor. I'm a basketball player. I'm long jumping. And my first year at school was just terrible to me. Everybody else, it was a great year, but for me I was unhappy. You know? And but

Vance Crowe [00:45:30] You were far away. Away. You

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:45:31] Were playing basketball far away, far away and diagnosed as an asthmatic, you know, and lose my mom. All kind of things were happening, but I never lost sight of what that picture should look like.

Vance Crowe [00:45:45] What that picture should look like.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:45:47] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:45:47] What do you mean?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:45:49] So I always had an image of how completed the picture would look. I always use, you know, like pieces of the puzzle. And there were always empty spots that I was missing. So that taught me to journal, you know, what are the things

Vance Crowe [00:46:07] I'm, oh I'm totally in on journalling. A hundred

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:46:09] Percent.

Vance Crowe [00:46:10] Yes. Yeah.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:46:10] Yes. So journaling and then, then I started realizing what it is that, what I'm not doing, not blaming everybody else. Jackie, what are you not doing? Reading through it. Understanding like it was athletics or you know, like just 'cause I wasn't the best hurdler. 'cause I didn't run hurdles in high school. I only ran 'em during the summer, you know, and couldn't five step, I mean I was five step, it was supposed to be three steps when I master the three steps. Like, oh that's so easy. But it took a while,

Vance Crowe [00:46:43] But it had to click. Yeah. You had to, you had to go through that long period where it was all pain.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:46:47] Yes. And

Vance Crowe [00:46:47] Then one day it, it comes together.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:46:49] Right.

Vance Crowe [00:46:50] So this picture that you have, I've been talking lately about this concept of the Damon. So it's D-A-E-M-O-N and it's something that philosophers from all the way back to Aristotle to Nietzche say I have a voice that's in my mind and only I can hear it and I can't always hear it. It sounds really similar to that. I have a picture.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:47:12] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:47:13] When you say I have a picture, I don't have one, but I have a voice that I hear. Right. But do you think those are the same things? I

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:47:18] Do. I do because I, you know, I, I see how my, my vision of I saw the community center.

Vance Crowe [00:47:30] You did.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:47:31] Yes. And

Vance Crowe [00:47:33] That's, so for people to have context where that is, is like you hued it out of the wilderness.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:47:40] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:47:40] There was nothing there. No, it was not obvious. Right. Wow.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:47:45] So, and like I saw myself standing on the podium, but you could see yourself see these pictures. But what you can't lose, lose sight of is the work that goes into it to bringing it to reality. So the Olympics is my team of people, the community center, it's a team of people. And sometimes you might think you have the right people on your team and then you find out, no I do not. Because they don't fit in. 'cause in as a part of that picture, frustration comes, but do I find myself being drained, withdrawn. I shouldn't have to change my emotions to fit into the picture that I have already painted for myself. The frustration has gone through the strokes. And I know this, I know that I, but that's the difference in I see in building a community center versus the athletics.

Vance Crowe [00:48:48] Well it's, it's such, it's such a difference because in track and field you have competitors but you can't impact how they perform. Right. You can only impact how you perform. So it is 100% an individual sport, but there is that element of somebody running hard next to you. You get into a group setting and you still only can control your effort. But there you're choosing other people to be around. Like, it's not as simple as I just go out there and run my race or jump my jumps. Right.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:49:20] But the philosophy doesn't change. I can only focus on the things that I can control and not worry about the things I can't. The one thing I do know is that I shouldn't be on an emotional rollercoaster dealing with managing people. Either you fit or you don't and you can't be afraid to let them go. And athletics, a coach can't be afraid. You might be the superstar, but you are causing a whole lot of problems. I gotta let you go. And once the coach let the superstar go, then everybody else gonna shape up too. But I can't have a team where I have to worry about managing people emotion.

Vance Crowe [00:50:06] Interesting.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:50:06] You know? And 'cause there's no way as a team we are going to win because that becomes contagious. And if that becomes contagious within it, then all of a sudden my pitch is starting to disintegrate. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want that.

Vance Crowe [00:50:23] So you've had to deal with that.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:50:24] Yes. You have to deal with that.

Vance Crowe [00:50:26] And how are you at telling somebody you're not in this picture?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:50:32] You know, I think I'm, I'm very good at it because I only know for me, I'm gonna be honest with you. And, and the one thing about me is that there is no in between. I'm gonna either tell you either you don't like it or you're not gonna like it. But that's the way I'm honest with you. You know? 'cause that's how when they, you know, you just not, you just not cutting it. And I think sometime we set our young people up for failure when we're not honest with them. It is not that you're trying to, yeah. You uplift them. But to give every child a certificate and make them feel like they're doing okay when they're not, these are some of the things that you need to work on. I need you to work on this. Then I see improving, I'm gonna give you something that's saying, I see you improving. I'm not just gonna give you one say, oh 'cause you participated and the whole time you just sat over there and participate just by clapping. But if that's what you wanna do, I have no problem with that because there are team managers and there are people that do those things. But I need for you to understand that if you really wanna be in the mix, these are some of the things that you need to work on. Now. You go and you work on those and you come back. I'm, 'cause I was that kid I finished last in my first race.

Vance Crowe [00:51:56] Really?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:51:57] Yes. And they told me, okay, so I came up with, don't know where I got this from. If I can improve a 10th of a second, if I was running half of an inch, that meant the work that I'm doing is paying off. And I learned that four through ninth or four through eighth was always on the grass. And you got all different color ribbons. And 1, 2, 3 was always on the podium. And I had to say, now how do I get in on the podium? So you learn how to get in the mix. Same way. It's like you go in for a job interview, you get rejected. Okay, now how do I deal with this? What is it that I need to work on?

Vance Crowe [00:52:34] One of the hardest things for me about corporate America was that I would interview people for a position that I had open. If I didn't give it to them, I am not allowed to tell them why. Because we live in this litigious society. We live in an environment where people are like, don't hurt their feelings. You can't do it. But it is killing us because I saw candidates that I was like, you got, you have all these talents, you have all these skills, but these are the things that are a gap in your, in your career or in where you're at. And if you go out and find a way to fill that gap, you'll be unstoppable. Right. But we've stripped in so much of society, we've stripped out the ability to tell people real feedback. And I don't think it's helping us any,

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:53:18] I don't think it's helping us any, because I think sometimes we get caught up into, we lose sight of, oh, this person on paper, they look wow. Amazing. You know, talented got, but then when it comes for the interpersonal things, it's like, whoa, now I got a group of people I'm gonna work with. Now how I'm gonna pull this person in? This person might not be a great fit. They can interview well, but it's always something in that interview.

Vance Crowe [00:53:53] You look back on it and you're like, I knew it. I knew it.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:53:55] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:53:55] I just didn't listen to myself.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:53:57] Exactly. Because you go against your gut. 'cause there's always something that that person that was interviewing, they would come back to it and in the back of your mind, but the majority of everybody, oh, they wonderful. And there's this, but you, you know, you're like, and then it surface once you bring the person in, now it's like, okay, now how do I deal with it? How

Vance Crowe [00:54:17] Do I get, how do, how do I get outta this problem now that I Right.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:54:19] Because

Vance Crowe [00:54:20] I signed my name on the dotted line by saying, yeah, this is acceptable. Right. I I, I completely agree with this and see that in, in so many aspects of life, not just in employment and not just athletics, we don't tell people what the nature of reality is. Like we're, we would rather either get along with them or have them like us than we would be to be honest.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:54:42] Right. And I, and I think and that's tough though because it's one thing to be likable, but I want you to like me, 'cause you honest with me. I know that if I come to you, you're gonna be honest with me. And, and it might hurt my, my my my feelings at the time, but at least I know you care about me enough to tell me because I'd rather you tell me than someone else who really don't

Vance Crowe [00:55:06] Care about me. Well, there's two people that'll tell you what they really think. The people that love you and the people that hate you.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:55:09] Right.

Vance Crowe [00:55:10] And the people that hate you will tell you in, in vicious ways.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:55:14] Right.

Vance Crowe [00:55:14] So, so you wanna be the type of person that tells other people, Hey, this is what I'm seeing. Seeing Yeah. And I'm doing it outta love. Yes. Even though I know that I'm risking the fact that you might not like me.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:55:24] Right.

Vance Crowe [00:55:25] Yeah.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:55:25] And, and I, I think that, you know, even like with, I see a lot of, you know, like young people, right? And they feel like have no patience. They want this job, they want this amount of money. And they don't realize that, I don't care what your skill level is, you could work your way up. You know, but if you want that kind of money, then you know, go and start your own business. You know, do your own thing.

Vance Crowe [00:55:52] Yeah. You, if you have that picture,

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:55:55] Then,

Vance Crowe [00:55:55] Then it's, you gotta think of it, you gotta stand back and look at how does this fit into things Right. To to be the bigger picture.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:56:02] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:56:02] So you and your brother are both gold medal athletes. Your brother is an astounding talent. And you were running in women's events and he was running in men's events. Now this is getting changed over pe-people that were men are now running in women's events. I imagine you have a nuanced perspective about this. What do you think about how this is shaping up in society?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:56:27] You know what, it's, whew. We live in a society now where, well, first of all, I think if you're born a male, then you should compete as a male. You know? And, and we know as the ages start your development and where younger boys who might be competing with girls at a younger age is, it's, it's tough. And you know, you've seen it a lot in the sports. I think I just read something where they were suing somebody.

Vance Crowe [00:56:58] Yeah. There's a whole bunch of stuff going on. And, and at first I paid attention to it, and then I was like, this is chaos. I don't, I don't know how to pay attention to it. But when I look at it, I think a, a man has more muscle, he's got more bone density. If he had an opportunity to get out ahead and then says, I want to go compete over here, you're not comparing the same thing.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:57:19] No. And that's why they were really looking into it and trying to look at these, I mean, chromosomes or whatever, but I just, there is somewhat of a, it would be a, a disadvantage.

Vance Crowe [00:57:32] And one of the thoughts that I had about why you have a unique perspective is you were competing at the top levels. You were crushing it, and then somebody threw out a single accusation that you were using drugs and it, and it started to corrode away. And so, you know what it is to be competing at your highest levels and having people throw noise into that.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:57:57] Right. Yeah. What

Vance Crowe [00:57:57] Did that teach you about the world when that happened?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:58:00] You know what, it, it reminded me of focus on the things I can control and not worry about the things I can't. 'cause I tell myself that, but the reality of it is, is because if you perform at a high level, then it's like something's you know wrong. Not how, how you got there. You know? So for me it was like disappointing, you know? And was it gamemanship, you know, because sometimes, you know, all of a sudden females were getting attention and with that kind of tension, then all of a sudden there's endorsements and things. But if you can throw something out there to make people think twice, so, you know, there was a whole lot of reasoning, you know, nothing to back it up or, and it, it is just unfortunate because I think back then when we were competing, you know, I wish our federation or someone just would've came forward and said, you know, but you know, that it wasn't gonna happen. So

Vance Crowe [00:59:04] Because they, they weren't willing to take a stand. They weren't willing to go out and put their name on the line. No,

Jackie Joyner Kersee [00:59:09] I just think that that wasn't an avenue for it, you know, because back, back then, people can just throw things out. Now you throw things out, you better be able to back up what you're saying, you know? And, and, and the transitions of women just excelling and doing well. It was like, you don't want that. So then all of a sudden something must be wrong, you know? Oh, they gotta be taking drugs. They gotta be, you know,

Vance Crowe [00:59:35] And I think that that is the natural human tendency when somebody else is achieving, even if they're achieving in a different area than you, you think, well, they're not that good. Right? But, you know, because if I were in their position, I would be succeeding. So they must be cheating. Right. And I think that that brings up the fragility of, of human nature, because you can be achieving as an individual, but in society, your reputation

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:00:03] Is everything, you know? And you don't want nobody to, you know, I mean, I remember we were in high school and they were like, we were on, we were like, what are they talking about? You know, because we dominated, you know? And

Vance Crowe [01:00:16] Oh, you got accusations all the way back then?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:00:18] Oh yeah, they was, yes. They were like, you know, like, they doing something. They're like, we didn't even know what they were talking about. So that's why,

Vance Crowe [01:00:24] Wait, is there something we could be doing? I didn't know.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:00:27] No, but it was just the idea that we were good and, and then, you know, people would say things and, you know, like, what did we, we had no idea what, what people were saying, you know? So

Vance Crowe [01:00:39] It's just soul crushing though.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:00:41] It's soul crushing. But that's another way, the mental gain to get you off. I, I just, I take everything in from the standpoint of my, my husband would always remind me that you prepare to be in the best shape. If someone gonna beat you, don't let them beat you on technicality. So put yourself in the position where you know, you've done the work, block out the noise, because it's the noise that would distract you from getting the job done. So if you are expected to win, they expecting you to win. They're not expecting someone else, but if they can distract you, and that's someone else that's headline news.

Vance Crowe [01:01:26] Yeah.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:01:27] So don't let the things that you can't control consume you to the point that you can't perform to the best of your ability. And that's what happens is that people, you know, throw things out there to see if it's gonna stick, you know? And,

Vance Crowe [01:01:42] And the only ones that get to the top and stay there are the ones that figure out how not, not to let it harm you.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:01:48] Right. And, you know, and it's easy to say, and it's difficult to do because, you know, no one wants their reputation tarnished. You know, you work so hard and someone throws out an accusation, which has no validity to it at all. But, but all I, you know, that it goes back to the consistency of what I want to do and just keep going. That's why, you know, I could smile and say, you know,

Vance Crowe [01:02:16] It's why I think your foundation is so interesting, because at first blush, you'd be like, oh, somebody has a foundation their name gets to live on. Like, look at the accolades that that person gets. But then you come to realize, no, Jackie Joyner, sey is signing her name on everything here. And so how you, how the public views that, what we do for these students, how, how effective it all is, that will be your, your legacy. It's not like handing out a pair of shoes. And if somebody's like, I didn't like the pumps this year. That's, that's not that.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:02:52] Exactly. And that's what, you know, it's very, for me, it's rewarding. But I also know that there's a downside to that. And that's why it's so important for the people who work for the organization understand, you know, that okay, you guys can easily walk away, but once something happens, they talking about Jackie honor courtesy.

Vance Crowe [01:03:20] Yeah.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:03:20] I can't walk away.

Vance Crowe [01:03:21] Right.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:03:22] You know, everything I built is built around my reputation. So we have to be on top of, that's why the expectation and the standard of excellence is always high. Where I can't afford to have someone just, you know, blase, I'm, you know, we are not gonna do this. It doesn't work that way.

Vance Crowe [01:03:43] Right?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:03:44] So if your expectation and your standard of excellence can't reach our level of expectation, then this is not the place for you, because there's consequences when you don't do what you're supposed to do, you don't suffer. My organization suffer and I suffer.

Vance Crowe [01:04:06] Right?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:04:07] So when I started talking to 'em about, you know, I'm like, I'm not too my horn. I'm telling you, this is my life.

Vance Crowe [01:04:13] Right?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:04:14] So

Vance Crowe [01:04:15] I i I think most people don't have to sign on the dotted line in such a grand way, but everybody is signing on the dotted line with the work that they put in. I mean, the reason that you're able to demand that level of commitment and excellence from people is because there's no possible way you got to where you, you arrived at without that level of excellence.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:04:41] E exactly.

Vance Crowe [01:04:42] And it's one thing to be a tyrannical boss that expects their employees to achieve and be excellent when they're falling down. It's, it's like the parent that tries to have athletic greatness through the child, right? Despite the fact that they did not have the discipline. You're not in that position. You're saying, I did achieve excellence. We are trying to teach excellence, and therefore everyone that works for me must meet that level. And of course they're gonna, they're gonna be people that fall short.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:05:09] Right. But, but you know, but it's okay though, because how can we help elevate you? How can we help work around your strength? But I need for you to understand that you have weaknesses. That's not to say you're not a good a team player. It's just like with me, I know that in order for me to be great and to heptathlon, it wasn't the events I loved doing. It was the events that was going to gimme problems.

Vance Crowe [01:05:41] The 800 meters,

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:05:42] 800 meters, the high jump, the javelin. So I had to work on my weaker events. So everybody loved doing what they love doing. Okay. No, that's not what I see. I see your weaknesses is over here. I want you, because when we come up against competition, I wanna know that you're ready

Vance Crowe [01:06:02] As you're saying this, you know, what I'm thinking is like, damnit, she's right. And I have to work on the parts that are weak because I want to stay at the areas that I'm good at. Right? Right. That's, let's just keep dancing on the parts that I'm really good at. No, but that's not what will hold you back.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:06:16] Right. And, you know, and that's where, and athletics taught me that. So as a team, I look, I'm like, yeah, like there's some things I don't wanna do, right? But no, I need to go do that. But where I'm uncomfortable, I need to become comfortable. You know, might not wanna go here, but I, I need to go do that because going over here gonna allow me to meet someone that can help the work that I'm doing in the community.

Vance Crowe [01:06:43] Do you still have skills that you're working on? Things that, you know, this is my, this is my weak area.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:06:49] I think sometimes it's not that weak. I, I, I also have to recognize that saying no is hard, you know? And I think also recognizing that maybe you're, you're not a good fit, you know?

Vance Crowe [01:07:19] Yeah. It sounds like that's an area where, where you're grappling, right? Because you, you that it sounds like that's the thing you're thinking about.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:07:26] Yes. Because I think in order for us to be great, you'll never reach greatness, but you are always striving for greatness. And though, if you are always striving for greatness, then you know, you gotta continue to work. You, you know, and I, and I want you to be able to relax and enjoy, you know, some small successes around the way, but understand that there's still more work we need to do.

Vance Crowe [01:07:52] What does relaxation look like for you?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:07:55] Oh, just being at home, you know, being

Vance Crowe [01:07:59] Out of a limelight.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:08:00] Yes. You know, because I, you know what I think, I don't, you know, I don't take myself too seriously in a way that if I go to a restaurant, I don't mind waiting in line. I don't have to, you know, I, I have some friends like, well, we gonna tell, I'm like, no, don't do that. I wanna wait too. Because I think that's so important for my personal growth, you know, is that everything that I have achieved, I've earned it. You know? It didn't come easy. So now, because I sit on a pedestal for some people, I'm gonna treat you. No, no, no, no. I want you to treat me like you treat that person. You know, I'm gonna show you respect, you show me respect if I'm with a group of people, and I don't want you to reach across them to get to me. You know? So, so I think that, and I, I, I think there's a, a lot of things, you know, and then I have to learn to, you know, back off sometime,

Vance Crowe [01:09:02] I was talking with a friend of mine last night, Keaton Krueger, and he brought up a point I'd not really thought of. One of the things that separates animals from humans is that humans know they're gonna die. Right? The animals, they don't know that. And so there's a sense of whether it's urgency or I, I don't, I don't know, but do you think about that? Do you think about your own mortality and how long you have here to do work and things,

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:09:31] You know, you

Vance Crowe [01:09:33] Do. That's a really heavy question. I

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:09:34] Know. It's, you know, you, you, I have, you know, and it's not something I think about often. I, I know early on I did, I, I was like, I wanna live past 37, you know? 'cause that's when my mom died. And

Vance Crowe [01:09:51] Your mom was only 37 when she died.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:09:54] Yes.

Vance Crowe [01:09:55] I did not realize. So your biography, I, I highly recommend It is a fantastic read. It's a very clear, simple read. I had no idea your mother was 38. She must have been just a baby when she had you.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:10:08] Yes. So in my mind, I kept thinking, Lord, please let me live now. I have lived past that. But I think also, it's one thing they say, you know, the older you become, you know, you, things you didn't think about, you think about. So, you know, and there is an urgency in a way, you know, because I remember when I would compete, people always ask, what's your legacy? You know? And I, I don't know. You know,

Vance Crowe [01:10:38] I'm just trying to run. Right. You know, I'm just trying to jump. But

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:10:40] I think about the work that I'm doing in the community and, and really trying to have a, a place that I know would outlive me, but I just don't want it to outlive me. I want it to be embody the spirit and the soul. So whoever come through those doors will always feel that and know that

Vance Crowe [01:11:05] Even if they don't know your story, they, they know the, the core, the meaning of what you've been doing.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:11:10] Yes. Because it took a while where, for me, you know, like we, we always talk about all that. 'cause sometime I'd be like, I don't want, I don't want my pictures up, but I didn't realize not having pictures up versus having pictures up is a part of history. Because it's a generation that never seen me competed. And then when they see those pictures, they are inquisitive and they're, you know, like, I mean, they, we had this art guy to do. He worked his magic, you know, he had the blank canvas and sitting there, you know, and matter of fact, it was at the MU awards and they did this painting, and in the end he revealed all this work. So I have the painting sitting is in my center. So the kids that come through from Head Start and they go, miss Jackie, miss Jackie. And then, so they're like, miss Jackie, you made a mess. You know, not knowing that that's a part, although no. Oh,

Vance Crowe [01:12:09] Oh.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:12:10] So when they,

Vance Crowe [01:12:11] You'll have to send me a photo. I'll put this, put that on here.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:12:13] Yeah. Yeah. So when you But in the eyes of a kid, because it's all paint had, you know? Yeah. That he,

Vance Crowe [01:12:20] I've seen it. Yeah.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:12:20] But in, in the kids, miss Jackie, it's amazing. They

Vance Crowe [01:12:23] Don't understand it.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:12:25] But it's just, well,

Vance Crowe [01:12:26] That's the amazing thing about art, right? Yes.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:12:29] It

Vance Crowe [01:12:29] Can transcend, it can cause people to stop. Right. You, you could write a thousand signs,

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:12:34] Right. Provoke interests, get their, get them to thinking, you know? And, and now, so we have pictures up, so they go by and they see all kind, you know, just, it's so, you know, another teachable learning too, that I have some time to get outta my own way, where I'm like, okay, shying away, but not, you know. But I think this is, it's, it's teaching. So that's why I've been on this supposed to be doing this children's book. You know, I've been talking about it. Ran to somebody in Los Angeles a month ago, and, and you know, and the guy's like, no, Jackie, when you doing it? So I've been keeping my notes, but I gotta again, set the goal. Get it done. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:13:19] You know, I, I'm struck by when you think about art or that foundation, and you're saying, I want it to live on beyond me, it's that it needs to become a symbol.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:13:28] Yes.

Vance Crowe [01:13:29] And the hardest part about a symbol, I would think, for an artist. I know. So I go out and give talks all over the country, and I am only just now beginning to realize I don't need to tell the audience the final punchline. I create a framework under which they get to write themselves into it. And then by doing that, by giving up my, that I have full control, then it can live beyond me. And that's what, what it sounds like you're trying to do with your foundation. Yes,

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:13:56] Definitely. But

Vance Crowe [01:13:57] It's got to be a humbling experience because you, you're like, no, I want it to be this way, fit into my symbol in this way.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:14:05] Right. You know, it is very humbling is very, but it's good though, because I have a lot of, you know, great people. I really do. And that, and I love the fact how, not knowing I'm motivating them, but I'm motivating them because they're doing the work. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:14:26] You

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:14:26] Know, and you see the results. And that's why when you have this team, you have a great team and you don't want that negativity to really intervene, you know,

Vance Crowe [01:14:39] Keep the symbol from being built Chris

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:14:41] Ex. Exactly.

Vance Crowe [01:14:42] So before we started, I had you put on a VR headset. I wanna talk about that a little bit. What did you think of that? How was that experience?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:14:52] You know, the VR headset, virtual reality. Oh, great experience. You know, I, I, I think that,

Vance Crowe [01:15:01] What did you think? What? How, so you put this thing on, you're transported to a world. Tell me about that.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:15:07] Right. I I, I put the, what you call it,

Vance Crowe [01:15:11] The goggles. Yeah.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:15:12] The goggles on. And all of a sudden I'm in a cabin and I'm seeing things around me. And, and, but I, I'm also able to pick up things and toss things and, but then I also realized that there's an imbalance somewhere, because I'm trying to realize when he is saying grip with the middle finger, and then, you know, do different things, you know, so I could be able to pick up a cube, be able to pick up the ping pong paddle, be able to hit the ball, be able to pick up the airplane that I, I, I, it was just unreal. For real.

Vance Crowe [01:15:54] Well, it's almost like saying, let's talk about a dream you had, right? Yeah. Where you're like, and then it was in this room and it was a cabin, and it was like it was snowing.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:16:03] Right?

Vance Crowe [01:16:04] And yet we could go back in there and have the exact same one again. So one of the, you picked it up remarkably quickly. I, I show this thing to all kinds of people, and you had the dexterity, like, but it's funny to watch somebody do it because they like paw at the air and they're kind of wandering around. You could imagine a sin, a situation where somebody puts a camera in the center of the Olympic track, right? And, and they are walking around a as Jackie Joyner Kersee, everywhere they look is, they see the crowd, they can hear the noise. It's yelling. What is the difference between being there like you have been and being there in a virtual reality headset?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:16:51] The only difference would be the, the physical. But in all honesty, you could be there and the same excitement.

Vance Crowe [01:16:58] You think. So

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:16:59] I really do. You know, because even when you just said, you know, like, you're in your cabinet, you know, you are in your home, you know, you're going out for the run, you getting ready to go in, you know, the training, you know, the sweating, you know, oh, you got snow out there, you gotta run through the snow. And, but it gets you motivated to want to get up and do the things that you need to get done. Right.

Vance Crowe [01:17:21] You

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:17:21] Know, and it, you know, just think about it in a you child's world, you know the play, yes, we wanna play all the time, but just imagine, you know, you're in a quiet setting that all of a sudden you've taking that exam, you see, you acing it, and it's like, oh, I'm, oh, okay, I'm ready. Knowing that you have done all the work too. But I, I just, I thought it was, I

Vance Crowe [01:17:42] Think it's going to change the nature of what it is to be human. Because I don't think we've ever had a way for a person to have the experience of being Jackie Joyner Kersee without all of the work and the, and the leverage to do it like

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:17:59] That. You know what, when you say that, I think about even, like we were talking about, you know, a lot of these kids never seen me compete. Right. But just imagine, you know, you on there running and they trying to outrun you and, you know, and to see the technique of the different events, to learn, the hurdles, to be able to learn, jump and just see your body going through this, you know, I'm literally like, I, you know, not only when you look at the virtual reality, it could be a, a training tool. You know, a lot of these kids now go on YouTube and they watch and study. They think that's their coach. But now to be, to have something where you can actually train your body to go through it, or, you know, if, if you're not able to, you know, that it's really,

Vance Crowe [01:18:50] Yeah, I mean,

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:18:51] I mean that, that's what you got is high tech, though. It really clear, you could see, I'm gonna have to, what

Vance Crowe [01:18:57] Do you think that thing costs?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:18:59] I I, I thought it cost a lot of Muhammad

Vance Crowe [01:19:00] Take, take a guess.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:19:02] I was saying almost what, $1,500,

Vance Crowe [01:19:04] $400.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:19:05] What?

Vance Crowe [01:19:06] And that thing is only gonna come down because the hardware will just be the

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:19:09] Where can, can you get it from where you get it from?

Vance Crowe [01:19:11] I just, that one was Oculus. So Facebook makes that one. Google makes another one. I I, I think that,

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:19:18] But this was really good. I mean, but it was a real great quality though. Yes.

Vance Crowe [01:19:22] And it's going to just keep getting better. And I mean, I, I am certain that that's gonna look like the, the Atari, you know, that you come in and it is like someday that, right. But, but I think the nature of that technology will advance so far that there, I think it will be as important or more important than when we invented the internet, right? Like that you, you're like, oh gosh, how, how important could it be? And then all of a sudden you're like, well, there's Wikipedia and YouTube and everything in between. So I, I, I just, I'm, I was very interested to hear your thoughts on it. And I have to say, out of all the people I've shown this to, you've had the most open and interested and excited about it. A lot of people are afraid when they see it, they take it off and they say like, wait a second, I was just in, in the mountains and now I'm here. You know, in the studio. It's a weird feeling. Oh,

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:20:13] It is. It is a, it is a weird feeling. But you know, I think we are curious by nature. You

Vance Crowe [01:20:20] Are curious by nature. You,

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:20:23] But you know, your mind is like, okay, I was determined to master that thing. Like, I'm gonna get

Vance Crowe [01:20:28] It. Yeah, you did. And you did.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:20:30] And so, but then you go back to the basics. 'cause sometime it's something you're missing. And so all I kept doing was reading it said the middle of the finger grip, you know, trigger then hold, you know, and once you follow direction, it was able to two.

Vance Crowe [01:20:44] So you would recommend other people try it if they get the chance. Go out

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:20:47] And

Vance Crowe [01:20:48] See that. Yes.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:20:48] I, yes.

Vance Crowe [01:20:50] So we're gonna wrap up, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to, to let people know how can they help your work, do the things that you're doing. And I'll say from the, the beginning, that's a beacon of light that I, I was completely bowled over by. So I wanna see it be successful. What can people do to make it more successful?

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:21:14] You know, I would encourage people to come by and visit us. And I mean, we have our website, i the jj k foundation.org. But I think once you come through and set up with my assistant, Brittany Smith Holden, and you know, I could be available, give you a tour, you know, and be able to see some of the young people and, and see some of the things that we're doing and support summer, our events, you know. But I think I love to get people to come over there because I think once they come over and they see the center and see what we're doing, then it, it makes sense. You know, versus, okay, there's over in East St. Louis, you know? Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:21:52] I mean, I had planned to go see it for a long time, but, but then when we finally did it, you're like, I'm so

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:21:57] Glad you're okay.

Vance Crowe [01:21:57] Oh my God. Like, look at how sophisticated and well-built this is. And then the moment you watch kids walk in, you realize this is putting good energy into the world. This is, this is making it so children that can go out and make something great happen are gonna be more likely to do it because this thing is here.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:22:18] And that's, you know, and that's one of the, you know, the blessings of having the Jackie Joyner courtesy center, and it's an investment in the young people today. You might not see an instant return, but you really see a return on that investment. And

Vance Crowe [01:22:31] People, I, I mean, it's so difficult 'cause people are like, well, show me the data. I want to be data driven. And it's like, how do you, how do you do data driven when what you've done is you've taken one kid whose polarity was going in the negative and you flipped it around. And it may be 20 years before that kid comes up with something.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:22:49] My god. Yes, exactly. But I'm a

Vance Crowe [01:22:50] Hundred percent there. Yes.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:22:51] I, you know what? You couldn't have said it best because we get so called in, oh, what's the outcome? What's this? But we see the increment of just the changes, small changes of a behavior, a switch. Even just having a better relationship with your, your mother or your father. You know? So if that's happening, then we know it's happening in school. You showing up more, you know, and having the, you know, the strength and the encouragement to speak up, you know, when you know something is wrong, you know? So, but

Vance Crowe [01:23:26] This has been nothing short of a, of a deep honor that you were willing to come by and do this. So I'm so grateful, and this has been a wonderful conversation. So thank you so much for

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:23:35] Coming

Vance Crowe [01:23:35] By. Thank you.

Jackie Joyner Kersee [01:23:35] Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you.