NFT Creator Jack Butcher on $60K Digital Art Sales and Building Communities vs Audiences

Jack Butcher [00:00:00] Like the, there's a lot of debate around building an audience, building a community, build a personal brand. All of those, you know, all it's cliches at this point. And one of my, one of my friends, Sam Pa, he runs a newsletter called The Hustle. Might have heard of it, but he had this great line where he said, if you, if you leave your business for two weeks and nothing happens, you have an audience. If you leave your business for two weeks and it keeps running, you have a community. I'm Nicholas Barlett, co-owner of the World's first Popcorn board game Cafe, living in Fulton, Missouri. And you're listening to the Vance Crow podcast.

Vance Crowe [00:00:41] Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Today, we have an Articulate Ventures favorite. One of my favorite podcast guests is a guy named Jack Butcher. And the last time Jack and I spoke, he was in Brooklyn having to work from home, be, and we couldn't even do video because there was so much demand on the internet in his apartment building that we couldn't even turn on the video. It made it too unstable. Now, for people that don't know Jack Butcher, he runs a fantastic Twitter feed called Visualized Value, where he takes old stoic quotes and puts them to artwork and makes these beautiful, simple, like, I don't even know how to describe them, pieces of beautiful art. And they're amazing to see. And Jack has actually recently gotten into the NFT space, which is a way to digitally sign art so that the person that purchases it can say, look, I have the evidence of the original piece that this thing was created. It is a very difficult thing to wrap your mind around that we would be selling a piece of digital artwork that can be replicated infinitely at zero cost, going for tens of thousands of dollars. But Jack's gonna talk about what he thinks NFTs are all about and how they work. We're gonna get to the interview in a second, but you'll notice that Jack and I talk about the various networks. He has one with visualized value, and I have the Articulate Ventures Network. And we talk about the value of being a part of a community and how difficult it is to describe, because oftentimes people don't join for the fact that they're going to meet really interesting people, or they're gonna have these chance encounters or conversations that are on a deeper level than they would in another environment.

Vance Crowe [00:02:26] Instead, they join for some other reason. A lot of the reason that people join us is they're trying to become tangibly better communicators. So they take classes on how to get better at introducing yourself, even if you're an introvert or things about how to become a better negotiator. But once you get in there, you start to realize, wow, it is the community of people here that I can meet that can help me figure out how to get my business off the ground, how to handle complex family challenges regarding, you know, tough business situations. There's all kinds of things that happen in there. And anytime I start to break 'em down, it doesn't necessarily fit what you'll find when you're there because every individual finds the thing that's fits them. So I hope you will consider joining the Articulate Ventures Network. If you want to, you can go to Network dot Articulate Ventures to learn more. Okay, now without further ado, we're gonna go listen to my man, Jack Butcher. Jack Butcher, welcome back to the podcast.

Jack Butcher [00:03:27] Thanks for having me, Vance. Good to be back,

Vance Crowe [00:03:29] Man. Last time we spoke, you were in Brooklyn, coronavirus had just basically shut down Manhattan, so you were working from home and the internet was so like gummed up by people working from home that we couldn't even do face-to-face. My how the world has changed.

Jack Butcher [00:03:46] Indeed, mate, we are fully remote, fully optimized for a remote interaction. Now

Vance Crowe [00:03:52] You were already running a digital company in a, in a digital world. I would consider you to be one of my, one of my, you know, biggest internet citizens that I've, that I see and know out in the world. When you hear that concept like citizen of the internet, what does that make you think of?

Jack Butcher [00:04:10] You know what's, I've been thinking a lot about this since our last conversation and like how there were people that weren't internet natives or citizens of the internet before last March, or whenever things abs like kicked off properly. But now everybody's kind of a citizen of the internet, you know, at least within the circles I run in people that might, may have been kind of on the fence or, you know, just do it for work or you have to, you know, you just have to use a computer based on the nature of your work. Now, I think, you know, in the last year our identities of, you know, the, there's the kind of magnetic poles have flipped. Whether your internet life was, was like the side car almost, or this like, you know, auxiliary thing. And now it's the thing, it's the first, you know, it's the first interaction you have with somebody. It's how you, for the, for the last 12 months, how you've met people, how you evaluate, how first impressions happen, how all of that stuff happened. So to me it's, yeah, I didn't really take the concept seriously, I guess until a year or so. Well, over the last year it's gotten stronger and stronger and there's so many things going on now that I feel are indicative of that shift on a bigger scale.

Vance Crowe [00:05:32] Yeah, I think the thing that's the most obvious is the stuff you're describing, right? We're just doing Zoom calls and people that would've been 60 years old or the old tradition of like, no, we have to meet in person. All of those things went away. And so people had to, had to like make those adjustments. But the way, way bigger things that are coming online are things like NFTs, which you've been doing, it's virtual reality, which I've been spending a ton of time in. And you can tell that had there not been a coronavirus, the acceleration of these things altogether at once, I think probably would've been five or maybe even 10 years off.

Jack Butcher [00:06:08] Yeah. And the, the thing that I've been trying to decode is why did that happen so quickly? And I think it's like, it's kind of a replacement of the behavior that was happening in the real world, perhaps. So the NFT thing I think is, you know, in lieu of traveling, having experiences, buying things, doing new things, it's like this is a component of your identity if, whether it's like buying a basketball card or supporting an artist or, you know, aligning yourself with some project. It feels to me like that, that that just has, has taken on new significance given the fact that people are so, so invested in their internet personality or, you know, that that has become like the front runner of how people think about themselves and how they, you know, wanna present themselves to others too. It's like, it's a lot of mimetic theory going on there.

Vance Crowe [00:07:14] Yeah. You know, it's, it's funny about the people that would've spent hundreds or thousands of dollars on the, the costume that they wear to work, right? Like, I know what costume I need to wear in order to fit in in this office building, and if it's a we work kind of situation, maybe it's a, a really nice t-shirt and pair of good fitting jeans. And for people in a corporate office it was probably suits. But like you now have that money and do you put it into buying a new camera and getting a big setup or doing the, you know, things to your office? And, but I had not considered that it was people having the, the luxury time or the luxury money to be spending. So let's start from the beginning. What is an NFT for people that have no concept of this?

Jack Butcher [00:07:58] So I, you should probably interview somebody who has the background in the technical aspects of Ethereum. My understanding of it is, is essentially the, it's a non fungible token. So the, the transfer of an asset that proves ownership of something that cannot be copied or manipulated or transferred without the consent of the, you know, the parties in the transaction. So the, the digital file itself is, you know, can be anything. The NFT is kind of the token that authenticates that digital file. So it's almost like a signature from the creator. So if I made a piece of art and I mint that piece of art, it gets, you know, it becomes an NFT or an NFT is attached to it. And then that NFT is the, like the atomic unit that people are bidding on, but it's associated with this piece of artwork or, you know, this physical asset. And when as this space evolves, the NFTI think is gonna represent or can represent a whole bunch of things. The reason we're seeing art at the forefront, I think is because it's so tangible and, you know, people can look at it, point at it, understand it, and a lot of the technical aspects of Ethereum, you know, even for somebody who's, who's in this space now and trying to onboard really quickly are incredibly difficult to understand.

Jack Butcher [00:09:35] And like smart contracts in general, the, the breadth of applications that exist for those things are just so overwhelming that I think why we're seeing NFTs explode. 'cause it just taps into this piece of culture where someone could say, Hey, I own this thing, right? Which has been important for such a long time.

Vance Crowe [00:09:55] Yeah. If I were gonna put it another way, as you're describing it, I'm hearing like, so let's imagine you're in New York City and you're gonna go buy art, right? You could just go buy a painting, but if you get a painting with the signature of the artist and there's evidence like the actually Matisse signed that, right? Botero signed that, and then that makes it more valuable because people know, hey, this isn't just an, an infinitely reproducible thing, but in the digital world, if you, for example, who had run visualized value, which is this prolific incredibly simple graphics, taking wisdom and compressing them into a diagram or an image that makes people say like, oh, I, I add another layer into that quote and it, it makes it more valuable. So you're creating art, but the challenge in the digital world is once you put it out there, people could replicate it infinitely and say, no, I have the first one. No, I have the first one. Right. And this is a way of having you sign that digitally the way you would with a painting and saying, if there's any changes made to this, it will no longer have this signature on it. But as long as you have this one token, then you can reference the fact that I, the artist said that this was an original. Is that accurate?

Jack Butcher [00:11:06] Yes. Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:11:08] Okay. I did not understand that entirely before. I think that the, the, the concept of a digital signature really makes a lot of sense in the way that somehow digital work was going to have to be creditable to the author. Because otherwise you have this like, tragedy of the commons issue where once I gra once I see your thing, I can, I can infinitely replicate it.

Jack Butcher [00:11:31] Yeah. I think it's like, and the reason there's so much like crazy pushback is because it just feels unnatural, right? But I think we don't acknowledge how like, prevalent that behavior is already in, in our life. Even fine art collectors and I, I learned this from watching billions, I dunno if you've seen that, what is it? HBO Showtime show. But these guys are collecting masterpieces and they have them stored in a vault in the Swiss Alps somewhere, and then they have the perfect replica displayed in the home in some cases. So I've also heard stories about people that have jewelry. So they'll buy like, you know, the beers, diamonds, and when they're out on the street, they have the perfect replica made of moisten night or something. So there's, there's this interesting difference between like, the value in these things I think is your relationship to the thing, not necessarily the thing. If that makes sense. You can, within NFT or a digital file, you can clone it a hundred thousand times and put it everywhere. And honestly, maybe that makes it more valuable to the collector because so many people can, you can fund the work of an artist you believe in and show it to everybody, but you still get that I own this thing. I am the, I am the, you know, the, someone actually made an amazing comparison yesterday. It's like renaissance era

Vance Crowe [00:13:03] Patronage,

Jack Butcher [00:13:03] Patronage. So you can fund one, like there's one patron and one artist and you can fund their entire career. But the difference is everybody gets to see their work. People are building. To your point about virtual reality, the guy that won the Beepo auction for 69 million commissioned an architect to build a museum in virtual reality to display that work. So he bought it and now you can go and strap your VR headset on and walk around this museum that he had commissioned to, to go and see that work. So it's, it's fascinating moving incredibly fast.

Vance Crowe [00:13:43] Let's talk about you. 'cause you jumped in on it, right? A lot of people would've seen NFTs and been like, oh, that's the future, or, oh, that's exciting. But there's very few people that would be like, even though I don't understand Ethereum, I'm gonna jump into this space. So how did you do that?

Jack Butcher [00:13:57] Yeah, so where was I? I, I've been hearing about it. We have a community of a couple thousand people who are into all sorts of things. Technology. So there's a lot of crypto enthusiasts in there. A lot of technologists. And I've been getting messages over the last six months or so, like, oh, you should tokenize this thing, or you should look into what Ethereum can do and what smart contracts could do for like, stuff within the product. So maybe you issue a token and people like earn tokens for completing modules in the education products and things of that nature. And I was like, yeah, it sounds good, but it's like honestly super clunky. So like user experience wise, one, I don't feel like I have the expertise to implement it and really understand it. And two, I think because, you know, we have technically less literate people join our community all the time. Is that like way too, you know, way too high of a barrier to entry. So it was on my radar a long time ago, and then I, I started to look at the platforms where digital art was being auctioned. And for the most part it was like, there was incredibly, like all these crypto native products are generally very complex or they feel very complex 'cause engineers designed them or people that have been really native to the space have designed them, they're amazing. But for like the mass market, they're incredibly difficult to use. So I think the real catalyst was starting to see a couple of the platforms arrive that are way more user friendly and that felt more consistent with the brand, the simplicity of the work.

Jack Butcher [00:15:42] And I trying to think what, oh, I just had a friend introduce me to the guy that runs a, an app called Foundation, which is I think the, you know, I I think the cleanest iteration of an auction platform so far. And I just thought, oh, I'll throw something up that I'd already made and we'll see how it goes. And I think the audience that had been

Vance Crowe [00:16:11] To put that up, you're saying, I took a piece of art that I'd created and I put it up for auction with these guys that run a group called Foundation. And like, you really had no idea what was going to happen, right? It could have been that you paid whatever, I don't know what it is, 50 bucks or whatever to, to list something and then not make any money on it at all. But instead the auction opens up and suddenly people realize Jack Butcher is selling an NFT of visualized value. So what happened then?

Jack Butcher [00:16:38] So the first one, so this really interesting mechanic, it, there is an open auction format. So when the first bid comes in, the auction begins. So you set a reserve price and once that reserve is met, there's a 24 hour countdown. And then the really interesting mechanic is the last 15 minutes, anybody who bids in the last 15 minutes extends the auction back up to 15 minutes. So

Vance Crowe [00:17:04] We can like

Jack Butcher [00:17:05] Snipe, like an eBay type transaction, you know, which is fascinating again, in this space. That mechanic I think has been really powerful for the adoption and interest in NFTs. Like some of these platforms have made these tiny tweaks and I think they've had like massive effects.

Vance Crowe [00:17:26] Well, and there's something to an auction, like, I don't know if you've ever been to a physical auction before, like particularly in the ag community, it is an art to have somebody that's there and that cadence that they're getting into. And they're, and they're trying to like eek money outta these people and those people. And I mean, I love it. It's, it's like a, it's a form of a drug and that's why AG doesn't lose it. That's why they part in part having gone all digital is because it's so exciting. But when you translate that online, you don't have that same excitement. You just have people sitting at your computer, you're like, like waiting, can I get this bid in with three seconds left? Right? But if you add that little extra, like, then you extend it by 15 minutes now you keep the game going fast.

Jack Butcher [00:18:07] Exactly. And you know, you have the Twitter layer on top of that where people are watching it and bidding. And so that the first one, the first one was crazy. The first one went for 30, 30 Ethereum. The first piece was like Genesis piece, which I think, you know, that could, you could just come out of the gate with a piece of work 'cause it was the first ever piece of work. And people maybe speculate on that. You know, you're, you are gonna be an artist that might do all right and the first piece of art you ever published is, you know, is valuable for that reason. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:18:40] It's like, it's like having a way to, you know, when people say, I I would bet on you, you know, I'd if your, if your number was, you know, 31 Black, I would take it that that's the, that's exactly what this is like with the NFT and you're like, I bet one NFTs will be valuable in the future. And two, if NFTs are valuable, I think Jack butchers NFTs will be the most valuable.

Jack Butcher [00:19:02] Yeah, it's a, yeah, you're, you're, you're definitely gambling on multiple layers. It's cool.

Vance Crowe [00:19:08] And so would you say like 30 Ethereum do, what is the, what's Ethereum trading for these days?

Jack Butcher [00:19:15] Close to two grand today. So

Vance Crowe [00:19:18] Yeah, dude, you had to be sitting at your computer just like crazy, like losing your mind.

Jack Butcher [00:19:23] It was crazy, for sure. It was crazy.

Vance Crowe [00:19:26] So the last time we spoke you were living in Brooklyn, kinda living the new newly married life, exciting, visualized value is exploding. And now you are in Nashville and the father of a child. What is different about parenting that you did not expect?

Jack Butcher [00:19:48] I think, I think there's like an instant priority rearrangement, you know, you, you, you, it's different and it's not different. I think I, I I, some of me was expecting a like a completely different attitude to time. Like how would I, how would I think about time when, you know, you have this, these moments that you like, you can't get back in a very literal sense, like a very small child growing day by day and you can like, you know, you have a small baby too, right? It's like,

Vance Crowe [00:20:25] Oh yeah. On

Jack Butcher [00:20:26] A day, day basis,

Vance Crowe [00:20:26] Just a couple months

Jack Butcher [00:20:26] Apart

Vance Crowe [00:20:27] Basis. Yeah.

Jack Butcher [00:20:27] They just change so much. So it's like, you know, you don't want to be sitting in front of the computer all day or you don't want to be spending time away when you, well that was my initial thoughts. Like, I don't want to be, you know, I wanna completely optimize my work life to the point where I'm just spending all the time I can with, with the baby. And I think what actually differed from that when he arrived was like, actually, you know what my, you realize how much you can actually get done in five minutes for so many different reasons. One, because they're like, you know, they need attention and you have these small gaps of time where just, you know, doing their thing or asleep or something. And when you have that time, you're like, what is the, like, what's the most effective thing I can do in the next 15, 20 minutes, half an hour? And I thought it was gonna inspire like backwards productivity almost, or like say, you know, I'm not gonna go as crazy on work. But I think it's had kind of an opposite effect, but, but with a bit of a different view on time where I realize just how long five or 10 minutes is, and like that has, has changed the way I think a little bit.

Vance Crowe [00:21:44] Yeah. There's like, that makes senses when, when you start talking about the, the little bits of time. Another thing I realize is if you're sitting in front of the child and it wants your attention and you are thinking, oh, I'm gonna be able to just sneak a thing in, I'm gonna look at my phone for a second at least, you know, violet, she notices that my face just goes dead, right? Because I'm totally focused on my phone and she freaks out. And like, you don't realize how much you're dividing your time to like look at your phone or look at your computer. But when a child is like hitting the alarm button every time you do, you're like, oh man, that's, that's, I'm, I didn't realize how much of my attention I was splitting up into these tiny little cuts.

Jack Butcher [00:22:26] Yeah, that's, I I think that's a fascinating way to think about it. And also, yeah, you all, the assumption is they can't notice that, right? Or they don't understand. But it's like the, the fascinating thing to me is like, we measure progress by these technologies that we invented, right? We're measuring the progress of a child by language, for example. And it's like language is a manmade tool and there is like so many layers of interaction and understanding happening before language. But you, it's easy to really get caught up in like using language as like a development milestone where it's like, oh, he can't talk so he doesn't know what I'm doing. Right. Or he doesn't know how I feel or he can't read my energy 'cause I'm not telling him. It's like, it's kind of a, you know, it's very untrue. It's just there are so many signals that you're giving off for years and years and years before.

Vance Crowe [00:23:24] Yeah. I mean, before having a baby, I was imagining, like, I was really concerned about how much interaction you lose when you put, you know, face masks over people. But then after having a baby, I'm like, whoa, this is real. Because like, you have a period of time where the only way you can communicate with the child is the emotional signals you're sending through the tone of your voice. 'cause they don't, like you were saying, have any words and how are they reading and mimicking what whatever's going on in your face. Like it made me be like, I, you know, Peter Thiel talks a lot about Renee Gerard and, and his concepts mimetic desire. Yeah.

Jack Butcher [00:23:59] Yeah. And

Vance Crowe [00:24:00] It made me be like, Renee Gerard knew more about child psychology or the way humans think than anyone else. Like he's, he's yian in my, in my level of like, he's killer how Right. He was about how humans communicate.

Jack Butcher [00:24:14] Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. And I'm actually, I'll send you a link to it. I dunno if I can talk about it, but like had a conversation with someone who's writing a book about Rene Gerard at the moment. And so much of this is like converging with everything that's hap like NFTs, you can like layer Rene Gerard's ideas over NFTs having a baby. You can layer that. It's like just so like prophetically constructed that it fits every sort of human experience. It's, it's fascinating.

Vance Crowe [00:24:46] Yeah. The, the he's in. So for people that don't know, he has this concept, we're basically saying, how do human beings know what we want? We don't know. There's too much in the world. So instead of knowing, like if you were to look up and say, Hey, there's 10 different options of things that I could want. I don't look up there and say, oh, this is the one I want the most. Instead I look to other people that I want to be like, and I say, which of those 10 objects do they want? Okay. If they want that, then if I go get that, then I can figure out my way in the hierarchy. And it calls it mimetic desire. And that's only the beginning of, of his, his philosophy. But it is a truly profound thing. And when you think about kids in middle school, right? They know exactly what is cool. Right?

Jack Butcher [00:25:30] Right. But

Vance Crowe [00:25:30] If you ask them why is that cool? They have no way of of being able to articulate it. Yeah.

Jack Butcher [00:25:35] Yeah. Yeah. And I think like to your point about the phone or the distraction or the thing that you pay attention to, you're, that's the signal you're sending, right? Like, oh, that thing must be important.

Vance Crowe [00:25:47] Yeah, that's a hundred percent. Yeah. And then you start seeing the, the creepy moment at about five months when all of a sudden the baby starts wanting your phone. Yeah.

Jack Butcher [00:25:54] Even

Vance Crowe [00:25:55] Though it's just this little black object, and yet they, they want it because you want it.

Jack Butcher [00:25:59] Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. We're not there yet, but I, it's coming, I'm sure.

Vance Crowe [00:26:03] Well, so where are you at with the child development? What, what are you watching and observing that that strikes you?

Jack Butcher [00:26:10] So he's almost seven weeks and he's like so much, like he had some, we had some feeding and sleep stuff going on, so it's been just like trying to get him to go down and like you, we spend like probably half an hour a day, like, you know, doing the neck exercises and all that good stuff. And it like, I think he's on the cusp of like communication.

Vance Crowe [00:26:36] Have you gotten a laugh yet? Have you gotten like

Jack Butcher [00:26:38] No. No.

Vance Crowe [00:26:39] Oh man. So this is what I always say. Like, and I didn't know this, this is probably my thing. What I didn't know is that babies are essentially terrorists at first because they only have neutral and like way upset and

Jack Butcher [00:26:51] Like

Vance Crowe [00:26:52] Until they have smiling, they have nothing to negotiate on. Right? Right. It's just like the only thing I'm going to give you is not be mad. Right. And then once you have smiling, then now they can be like, what can I get the parent to do in exchange for this smile? Which is all the parent wants in

Jack Butcher [00:27:07] The world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bargaining power. Yeah. We don't have that yet, but, and it's like when you're exhausted early on, you're just like, wow, like I'm not doing, what if you're not getting a smile or if you're not getting positive feedback, you're like, hopefully this is what he needs.

Vance Crowe [00:27:26] You

Jack Butcher [00:27:26] Never gonna start. But I think they do the involuntary, you know, you have like involuntary, like muscle spasms at a certain age, which is like, it's regardless of the, the catalyst for it is a heartwarming thing. So I can't imagine what it's like when you know it's actually there's a reason for it or you're having, you know, you're developing a relationship around that. So exciting times to come.

Vance Crowe [00:27:51] Once the laughter started in my house, that's what made the baby become like a drug because then it went from like, this is my responsibility. I need to be here doing this thing to, like, now I'm like, if I go upstairs, I could potentially get a couple hits of laughter.

Jack Butcher [00:28:05] Right, right.

Vance Crowe [00:28:05] And there's no, there's no drug like a, like a child's laugh.

Jack Butcher [00:28:09] Yeah. Yeah. That's that's great man. I'm, it's exciting times.

Vance Crowe [00:28:14] So you talked about your schedule and getting time done. One of the biggest contributions that you've made in the world that I live in is you have a daily manifest where it describes like a way for people to take whatever their schedule is and fill it out and, and then tighten it up. And I've seen Ben Anderson, who's the executive producer of podcast use it, but many, many other people are. Have you been able to hang on and use your daily manifest in the same way?

Jack Butcher [00:28:42] Not right now. It's on pause. It's on pause. So, so yeah, the, like I said, we had some, had some feeding stuff going on, some sleep stuff going on. So it's used in retrospect at this point, like what happened today, what got done as opposed to planning forward. I'm, I'm told 12 weeks is the milestone that we're looking at for some level of predictability.

Vance Crowe [00:29:08] Jack, I have to say, like, you have given me a sense of completeness that you couldn't possibly imagine, because after about four weeks, I was like, all right, I'm not getting anything done. I gotta start doing this. I'm gonna hammer down on the manifest, I'm gonna do this. And then I was like, every time I try, it just spins outta control. And to hear Jack butcher himself

Jack Butcher [00:29:29] Struggle with it. Yeah. It's, yeah, I'm not gonna attempt it. There's a, there's a few things, there's two things on the list, right? Feed the baby, get the baby to sleep. That's, you don't need a piece of paper for that.

Vance Crowe [00:29:41] So Jack, you have built this amazing community, and from what I've watched from afar with the visualized value is that you're willing to try things with your community and then when it doesn't work, you, you pull it back. What have you learned over time about building a a like a lasting community?

Jack Butcher [00:30:00] So it's, I think it's, there's a couple things that strike me about, like the, there's a lot of debate around building an audience, building a community, build a personal brand, all of those, you know, well, it's cliches at this point. One of my, one of my friends, Sam Pa, he runs a newsletter called The Hustle. Might heard of it, but he had this great line where he said, if you, if you leave your business for two weeks and nothing happens, you have an audience. If you leave your business for two weeks and it keeps running, you have a community. So essentially the idea of you, like you play a role, but almost like an architectural role rather than a, you know, a performative role where you show up every day and X, y, and Z happens. So I think where you actually get longevity and like a massive amount of value generated is trying to, trying to like increase the connections within the network. So I think that's how our community grows. And the, the thing that I've learned over time is visualize value. I think, and again, this is just realized in retrospect, not a lot of this was strategic to begin with, but your ability to like consistently publish along a theme or to just be, actually that's not accurate.

Jack Butcher [00:31:33] I think the, I'm putting the ideas out into the world that I resonate with, so I'm like curating a worldview almost by here's like 500 things that I believe to be true. And over time, I think the fidelity of that worldview just in, like, attracts people with similar beliefs and desires. And there's a lot of mimetic theory going on there as well. And that ability to have an asset, I think that represents, that brings the right type of people into your community. And then like two pl one plus one equals three in a lot of those scenarios. So like two people that never, never would've been connected before, both value, you know, let's say 60% of the things that visualize value puts out, you put them together and then that connection like increases the value of the network. So a lot of the stuff that we've been trying recently is, you know, less of a broadcast thing and more of a how do you facilitate interaction among people because, you know, there's the stuff that goes out on the front end is, you know, it doesn't differ massively from what exists behind the, the doors, right? It's more of a environment that contains people that think like you do or are gonna, you know, want to think like you do and, and challenge the, you know, the way you think to get there.

Jack Butcher [00:33:08] So I think over time, I've just realized more and more that connecting people within the community is the, is just a massively valuable thing and you know, it's way more relational than transactional. And that's where the, that's where I think that's how a community becomes valuable. It's like what the quality of the relationships within the community, not the relationship with an individual member to whoever is running the thing. Does that make sense?

Vance Crowe [00:33:37] Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, you're describing like truly graph theory where you're saying, look, every time you add a new node in here, if you can make sure that node is connected to every other node, then you actually have exponential growth of the strength of the network. Meaning that for every new person that comes in, you are, that that person gets every single connection that was already there, plus they then can build into them. And you see that once you start doing that, it's like there, the density gets heavier and so your gravity well grows because it actually pulls down into that kind of space. And then more people can come into it, there's more, more things get built out of it. So then people can catch as they're flying by, they may catch somebody on the outside and then say, oh, the deeper I go, the more connections, the more interesting things I see. I, I a hundred percent understand what you're saying.

Jack Butcher [00:34:28] Awesome. Yeah. And yeah, it's easy to gloss over that in the beginning because it just feel, especially when it's smaller, but like bringing thin things in that make that happen has been super powerful. Like one of the very tactical or tangible things that there's one member in the community that facilitates meetups between people. So they will reach out to people, be like, oh, you should meet this person. Or, you know, there's a gap in your experience that this person has, so you're interested in going into this world, you should talk to this person. And it seems like a small thing, but I think the, like the compounding nature of, I think graph theory is, I'm gonna have to do a a little bit more reading on that, but the, yeah, the density and the, the quality of the connections in the network, it, it really does compound quickly once you have a behavior like that in place. And I think, I mean, I think relationships are really the, like that's the how you build an advantage in any area, right? It's like, who are you connected to?

Vance Crowe [00:35:38] We, so I run a network called the Articulate Ventures Network, and this is for people that are like, I have ideas that are kind of up the graph they're thought of by a few people, but not everybody agrees with them. But I want a place where I can articulate them and not that people will agree with me. Like this is an environment where people are saying, I will disagree with you, but respectfully, which I think in a lot of ways people don't, don't have this. Yeah. And one of the things that we started doing was what we called amateur hour. Like so what is a thing that you learned, not because it's your profession, but because you loved it. So we had a guy come on that did ham radio, we had the ring brothers who I know at least one of them's in your network. Yeah, yeah. Did a whole thing on how do you actually butcher a cow? So they're taking photographs Wow. Of skinning it and we're doing one on epistemology. And what I didn't expect to come out of this is then you give each new person in the network a chance to be like, Hey, this is what I know about, this is what I like. And the number of people that then can come up and talk with them fluently about a thing that they know more deeply. It just, you, you watch how this single thing probably created more interconnections in the network than any other thing that, that we had done. And it was just saying like, Hey, it's your turn. You, you take the marker and start showing what's going on here.

Jack Butcher [00:36:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally agree.

Vance Crowe [00:36:59] And I find that that's what goes on in your network because people in your, in your Slack channel, like share things, right? They're like, Hey, this is what I was working on. Give me feedback. And I think that that was one of the things that made people find value in knowing each other as opposed to just knowing Jack.

Jack Butcher [00:37:16] Agreed. Yeah. And yeah, I think there's only so much one person can, well if your primary function is to make the network valuable, what identifying the thing that you do that, that does that best? I think it's almost a recruiting, my role is a recruiting role. So how do you go out and make things that speak to the types of people that are gonna make the network more valuable? So you can almost divorce those things into two camps. Like this is like material to produce connections to people to bring them in and then like engineer and activities and things that are gonna connect people internally as kind of the secondary piece of that. And, and they, people in the community learn to kind of do that by themselves. Like, we had a baby six weeks ago, we were almost off the face of the earth honestly for a month at least. And there's a bunch of activity people taking on responsibilities and putting on, you know, putting on meetups and just staying in touch. So it's kind of an unstoppable thing if you can get that, like, if you can get that critical mass of connection between members.

Vance Crowe [00:38:31] So talk about times when you figured out th things you thought the network was gonna go do well and then it was like, ah, that, that, that didn't work.

Jack Butcher [00:38:40] Yeah. What have we got there? I think honestly the scheduled stuff is, is difficult to maintain momentum on. So you come out of the gate, we did office hours every week since we began first one huge amount of attendance, second one, little bit less attendance, third one, little bit less attendance. So there's like this, I think trying to like fight against the, like internet entropy almost is like the, the scheduled nature of the community has gotten less and less, less and less utilized I guess. I think like as a, as a like product builder, you wanna make sure people feel as though the value is consistent, right? If you're paying a subscription for something, I want new content, I want new stuff, I want to, you know, make sure that, you know, what I'm paying for is funding some like optionality for me in the future. But what I've noticed is like people buy that, but what they really get the value is kind of indescribable or it's very difficult to quantify the, the things that really people really get value from, which is a relationship or a convers one conversation or one introduction, which, you know, far outweighs the, you know, a hundred pieces of content that exist in the archive there and can take your life in a totally different direction.

Jack Butcher [00:40:17] Both are valuable I think, but it's hard, it's hard to pull out, pull out of that too once you've promised it. So it's like, oh, we're gonna do these weekly things, but hey, if 20 people show up, it's better that we, you know, put our energy elsewhere. We're better off like going out and doing this publicly and getting more people into the community so you can build relationships with those people. And it's, that was kind of a hard bandaid to rip off, but starting to realize that just access to a community of people is the value as opposed to continually pushing content into that network, if that makes sense.

Vance Crowe [00:40:55] Oh, a hundred percent. And I mean like in effect, like when people first find you, they get that, that kind of experience of euphoria. Like, oh my gosh, look at all these things I'm learning. Look at all this stuff. But once they learn the general idea, they can still extract value out of each independent thing that you put in. But the big exhilaration from the I I'm now discovering a new way to look at it is it's very few books that you wanna read, you know, 10 times,

Jack Butcher [00:41:24] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:41:25] But it's not that you wanna throw it out like you want it to be good, but if that book then connects you with a bunch of people that are like, I also really liked this book and found value out of it, but it, it's, IM it's nearly impossible to sell people on the nebulous, nameless culture of a community. They have to have some other reason that they come in and their expectations be so thoroughly, you know, beat by this other thing that they're okay, that they're not getting that exhilaration feeling anymore.

Jack Butcher [00:41:54] Yeah, agreed. Agreed. The, it's also this phenomenon of like enough, you know, if you listen to enough advice, it all cancels out to zero at a certain point. So you, you just choose a set of principles and let that guide everything. And at a certain point your addition is dilution. And it's like learning where that, learning where that line is, is, is, it's a process to learn.

Vance Crowe [00:42:25] That's a powerful concept. I, I've always wondered, have you read Steven? Is it Pressfield's book, the War of Art?

Jack Butcher [00:42:35] I get told to read it all the time. I haven't read it yet. I've, that's on my list.

Vance Crowe [00:42:38] So in that, in that book, he has this concept called the voice of resistance, which is like, you know, you're it, once you hear it, you totally know it. It's like, you know when you're going out to jog, right? You decide like, hey, I'm gonna develop a new habit. And the first couple days you're super excited, but then the third day it's like, hey, you don't wanna run too much. You might get hurt, right? Like, oh, it's, it's cold. And think about how hard you worked yesterday. You don't have to do that. So it's that voice that talks you out of doing the things that you know you could achieve. What I see with you from the outside is somebody that never gives in to that voice of resistance. At least that's what it seems like. Would you say that you have a a, a way to get around that or be able to fight your voice? Do you have the voice of resistance and do you think it's possible to outwit it?

Jack Butcher [00:43:27] I think I have something equally as unhealthy, but in the opposite direction. Like the, the, I honestly find it difficult to, Hmm. Not stop. I wrote something. Yes. I dunno if I have this window pulled up, I'm just gonna pull something up. 'cause I, someone asked me, I, like, I did a text interview with someone and it's, it was basically the same question. But I think what I've started to understand, let see this is, yeah, so, so like my response to feeling like inadequate or not doing or, or not getting the result I wanted to get is to make something else. To do something else. Like the, the, and I think that that can be unhealthy. Like I'm, maybe I, you know, I've make something, it's not received the way I wanted it, it to be received at eight o'clock at night. So I'm like, I have to put like my stamp on this day. I'm not stopping until I make something that I'm proud of. I just getting that feedback loop of, you know, trying to outdo myself. I, this is does not apply to physical exercise, otherwise I'd be in a very different

Vance Crowe [00:44:47] Shape I am right now. But

Jack Butcher [00:44:49] To working on a computer, I definitely have that like itch of like, I need to try and I need to try and outdo the last thing I did. And it's, you know, I do not claim this as a healthy habit, but it's an itch that is, is just unscratchable and

Vance Crowe [00:45:06] How much of that itch is, you know, the, the lure of magic internet points, right? Like the, oh, I had so many people like these, or I had so many, so many responses from the nebulous internet.

Jack Butcher [00:45:19] There's a, there's an, there's an aspect of that to it I think like how you quantify progress and like, even if you don't want to measure certain things, it's, it's being measured, right? So you're optimizing for, I, I don't know, I think it's, it's kind of a, it's kind of harmful and kind of not, right? You have these metrics that can really give you feedback on what the market thinks about what you're doing, which is important if you are trying to in run a business independently and look after your family and you know, build security. So it's very, it's a very similar to the like phone discussion around the baby. It's like there's an argument why I shouldn't do this and there's an argument why I should do this and where do I fall on that spectrum each time. The, there is some like supernatural like level of engineering in these platforms though, where you, well I personally have, I could have a healthier relationship with some of it. So, you know, I notice when I do have a day off or six hours off of platform X I'm like, oh, I feel unusually not rested, but like I feel a little bit more at ease than a typical day, which is, I think we talked about this before, the internet is just this like exponential environment that we're not biologically coded for.

Jack Butcher [00:46:55] So you're just in this like constant state of just, it's very weird to broadcast your ideas to a hundred thousand people, right? Nobody is biologically wired to do that. And if you get it wrong, then the response to that or you know, the market perceives that you got it wrong. The response to something like that is like an attack on your nervous system in some way. You get more resilient to it over time as all things do. But I think that it's very easy to get stuck in an unhealthy spot that way too.

Vance Crowe [00:47:27] Yeah, I mean like it, when you really sit down and think about it, most people on Twitter have a larger voice than the most powerful kings in all of medieval Europe, right? If you have let's say 5,000 people that could potentially see your thing, yeah,

Jack Butcher [00:47:43] Your

Vance Crowe [00:47:43] Voice doesn't carry 5,000. In fact, I bet you could see the limit of communities or the limit of societies probably has to do with how many people can you pack into a space and have the human voice hear it. I mean that's, that's clearly the reason the Romans and the Greeks built theaters was that that was the best way to amplify their voice. And now you don't even have to build, you know, the Parthenon, you could just, you you could just go and build your Twitter following.

Jack Butcher [00:48:09] Yeah, you know what? I think it's crazy and I'd be curious for your take on this is like, I wonder when, when our children are 18 or so, I wonder if we're gonna look back on, well there's two components to this one like pseudo pseudonym, am I gonna say that right?

Vance Crowe [00:48:24] Pseudo anonymity.

Jack Butcher [00:48:25] Pseudo anonymity and two, just I guess freedom of speech, like the ability to broadcast your thoughts without, or not necessarily without consequence, but like the fact that I think we're gonna look back in 20 years and be like, it one, it was crazy that we using your own name and this is kind of a secondary point to that, that you are like broadcasting your opinion and we're getting to the point where you are like putting it on the blockchain for preservation forever. Right? So I was talking yesterday to somebody about imagine just how culture changes and what's acceptable changes and how you talk changes and the words that we use change in a hundred years, something that may have been completely innocent is like construed completely differently, right? Like it's, you know, may be insensitive for one reason or another or it may just not age well. So I'm pretty fascinated by, by that. And the people that operate pseudo an an

Vance Crowe [00:49:31] Anonymously

Jack Butcher [00:49:32] Pseudo an an anonymity are, are kind of ahead of the curve in that sense, right? And you see, you see people doing really interesting things and, and gaining a ton of traction without a lot of the downside of operating under your own name. So I think that's, you know, that's a pretty smart and interesting thing I've been reading the sovereign individual, I'm sure you've

Vance Crowe [00:49:56] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jack Butcher [00:49:57] And that so many of those, you know, so much of what they predicted was interesting with a few twists, right? We just, I think our mimetic desire and our, you know, our code that seeks validation stopped the revolution of anonymous posting. But also when you signed up for an a OL chat room 15 years ago, you wouldn't dream of using your real name, right?

Vance Crowe [00:50:27] No. Mostly because you were, it was little boys talking to other little boys being like pretending some of them pretending to be girls. Like that's, that's all you're sitting there doing is a bunch of little boys playing there.

Jack Butcher [00:50:38] Yeah. So it is like, it's, we've come full circle almost like we don't trust the internet, we don't put our real names on the internet to like, everybody puts the everything on the internet and then back to, hey, remember when we used to like put our names on the internet? That was crazy. And I think a lot about, like, I don't curious for your take on this, like posting your kids on the internet, like we've made a decision, we're not gonna do that. And there's, there's like stuff going on in Europe where people are like suing their parents for documenting, you know, 15 years of their life without their consent on the internet. So just crazy implications. I

Vance Crowe [00:51:14] Dunno, I'm totally, I'm totally with you on that. Like, we have one photograph of Violet that we put on Facebook for like friends, and almost the moment I did it, I regretted it. Like, I was like, you know, there's something to be celebrated like Wedding Ann and I's Wedding, right? Right. And like everybody that was friends with me and friends with her now knows like, oh, these two people are married, but with the baby it's in a way putting their DNA up there, right? It's like, you know, you've just put their facial structure up there and I mean, I I don't think you can prevent it 'cause it's not like you can jump in front of other people taking photographs of your baby. But I think you're, I think you're probably right that in the future we will have software that says if this child's not over 18, you know, we're gonna automatically blur their faces so that that way they have anonymity something like that is gonna happen because, you know, these, these poor kids that their parents are getting magic internet points off of putting thousands of their photographs on there. To me, I'm always like, woo hoo, you are taking a gamble on something you don't understand.

Jack Butcher [00:52:16] Agreed. Yeah. No, I, and I mean, just having like intentionally used the internet to grow a business in the last couple of years, it really changes your, I think it changes your relationship to your internet identity. Like when I was in college or you know, school or whatever, it's just like, you just have it to stay in touch with your friends. Like organize going out for a beer on a Friday night, it's like, I could not care less about what's posted up there or like, just did not even cross my mind. But now we've just like, we've crossed it, the, you know, we've crossed the bridge and it's, and it's fallen down into the ravine behind us. It's like, this is you now. Like, make sure that you act, you know, make sure

Vance Crowe [00:53:01] Represents well. I always kind of wondered about like, you, you're in a unique position to be able to talk about this because you went from being a guy that helps brands, which means your creative work stood behind a giant corporation. And in fact, if, if Jack Butcher shows up in the back, it'd be like you photo bombed your own work. Right?

Jack Butcher [00:53:17] Whereas

Vance Crowe [00:53:18] Visualized value is not inextricably linked, but definitely people associate the two Jack Butcher and his white t-shirt with his scruffy face and visualize value and you became a celebrity in a way, or at least a there asymmetrical information where a lot of people knew you and you didn't know those people and that had to change how you viewed being a citizen of the internet.

Jack Butcher [00:53:43] It's weird, man, like I've walked around the park in Nashville and it's like, oh, you, I, I know visualize value. Like people, people stop you on the street and it's like, that is weird. That gets weird. Yeah. I mean, like, I'm sure a lot of people talk about this, you know David Perel, right?

Vance Crowe [00:54:02] Oh yeah, sure.

Jack Butcher [00:54:03] Yeah. So he talks about this idea of niche fame. So it's like, if you can stay in this world where you know, you're a subject matter expert or whatever, and it's like people who just love the project you're working on know you, that is like an acceptable level of fame in inverted commerce. But as soon as like, you know, traditional fame and celebrity, it's like a horrible way to live, right? You can't go to Whole Foods like people are taking pictures of you and stuff like that. So like, I think the, I don't think there's any danger of crossing that line, making graphics on the internet. Like if you go on a, a reality TV show or something of that nature. It's like, it's such an asymmetric thing, right? You're betting, I, I'm, yeah, I mean, I'm just not of a head space that would take that risk where it's like, I'm gonna be known for x for the rest of my life if it isn't inextricably linked with or isn't. If I'm in control of a narrative, I guess is a different way to think about it. Like visualize value, I control what that stands for and I'm like, I, I'll put my name on it versus, you know, being so famous that people speculate about your behavior and

Vance Crowe [00:55:17] Yeah, it almost comes full circle with the NFT, right? Like when you become a celebrity, the reason that so many people get invested in that is other people make money off of your brand, right? They mix their brand with your brand and all of these things and it becomes this weird ecosystem. And I think you're right. I think there was a time when we were growing up, you know, to be Mr. T level famous or, you know, rocky or any of these things seemed really good from afar because they were gatekeepers, right? But if every single person has that camera to, to be like, I can make social benefit from grabbing photographs of you, then all of a sudden you get into this weird fishbowl where everywhere you go, the world is warped around you because people can derive value from having seen you, but the niche fame doesn't have that effect, right? It it allows you to meet people that are interested in the things you're interested in without having to pay the, the tragedy of the commons toll kind of idea. Yeah.

Jack Butcher [00:56:15] I mean that would yeah, ideally that's the case. Yeah. And, and I think it's, again, it's one of these subconscious things that we strive for, acceptance and validation. It's like, I wanna be valuable. But, you know, there are layers beneath that with that I think are driven by some deeper human thing, right? Everybody wants to be heard. And if you have a tool that can carry your voice to millions of people then, you know, that just, I think that just accelerates the behavior and, and can incentivize the wrong stuff too. I, I read about, there's this great Twitter profile I follow and this guy's like, oh, I make YouTube videos 'cause I love, you know, playing guitar and just messing about and putting my stuff out there. And I look at the YouTube analytics and all they want me to do is make productivity videos. It's like, hey, you should make videos against this keyword, right? If you wanna make, if you wanna monetize your stuff and make more money. So every, there's this like pull of like commercial incentives that get people to do things that they otherwise wouldn't do or aren't interested in. And I think that is kind of the foundation of unhappiness, right? Is when this is, there's this incentive pulling you in a direction that you didn't want to be pulled in. And we, I think we're all subject to that.

Vance Crowe [00:57:38] I, I find this exactly. So, you know, I I'm totally of the Jungian idea that your curiosity is the only compass that your, your inner self has to tell you. Like that's the direction you should be heading in. Agree.

Jack Butcher [00:57:52] And

Vance Crowe [00:57:52] I know the type of people that I can interview will get way, way more views because the audience likes it. But I find that like I'm, I'm bored is not maybe a fair way to say it, but I'm certainly not, my curiosity is not like ping.

Jack Butcher [00:58:07] Right? Right.

Vance Crowe [00:58:08] And it's really hard because then you've gotta have this like, well I can't just run around and only follow my curiosity because there's no, the financial benefit isn't there. But if I only do this, then I might as well be in jail, right? Because like, I'm, I'm having to do something that's completely boring and that's the problem with jail, right? Jail. It's, it's, there's no new information coming in. And that to me is the fastest path to depression that I can find.

Jack Butcher [00:58:33] Yeah, agreed. And I like on IFI feel incredibly fortunate that visualized value turned out the way it did. It was like an outlet for expression and curiosity and the internet made it possible to, you know, commercialize that in a sense, or use it as a vehicle to meet people and it wouldn't have happened without that. But also there are things that I know I could do differently that would grow it faster, get different people involved with it. And e even when I do 'em and it works, I'm like, you know, I had that like feeling in the back of my mind that maybe this was not the most consistent thing and it's not the thing that I want to be doing. And the good feedback does not make up for the fact that I, you know, went against my instinct. So, yeah, I long-winded way of saying I agree. Like you, as soon as you stop following your curiosity, even if, you know, even if, I think that's the definition of, like, you, you said depression, it's like being in a job or a role that you are just punching the clock to earn a paycheck, right? And it's any environment you operate in, I think you can, you can drift towards that. Even if you're seemingly independent, there are all these external incentives that can pull you in directions that you never intended to go.

Vance Crowe [01:00:05] Well this reminds me of the, I read this article and I think it's called like reenter the sensorium. I'm gonna get the guy that wrote it on the podcast if I can, but it was all about the value of dreams. So you'll you'll, are you familiar with this sensorium concept?

Jack Butcher [01:00:19] No.

Vance Crowe [01:00:19] So the guy's name is Eric Ho and it's fascinating. So basically his idea is during the day you're collecting all this information and your brain has to, has to deal with that information somehow, but are like in artificial intelligence, there's this concept called overfitting. So if you're trying to teach an algorithm how to identify a dog, if you show a photo of it, you show it a million photographs of a dog. Yeah. And the challenge is if you show them all brown dogs by axi, then it sees a deer and it says four legs, brown deer. Right? So it throws it in there and that's called overfitting. So at night, what he's saying, this Eric hole guy is you are going to bed and you're breaking all of the associations and you're refitting them in different ways so that your brain can actually establish new patterns for where to put things, which is why sometimes you wake up in the morning and an idea that you were struggling with the night before just clicks in. And there's like this a amazing way to think about how to discover new things. And one of the reasons that we don't is that art throws all these new ideas in, but entertainment doesn't. So he distinguishes entertainment being like the grooves that you're already familiar with. You watch a sitcom, you throw up in YouTube and you watch clips of sopranos shows or whatever that is. Your brain is not getting any new information. So when you go to bed, it's already had the dreams, it doesn't have anything to break apart and reshift.

Vance Crowe [01:01:51] Whereas if you expose yourself to art, it doesn't even have to be things that you like. Yeah. It's that your brain now has all these new bits of information that it's gotta sortt. And so I have tried to actively do all that I can now to get away from entertainment. And this is just in the last couple of weeks and try and do art. And man, it is wildly changing my dreams.

Jack Butcher [01:02:13] Wow. How do you consume art?

Vance Crowe [01:02:16] Well, so like we went to the art museum here in St. Louis. I took my baby and I, and actually one of the things that I did was try to observe, okay, a seven month old, what is it that her eye is drawn to? Right? Yeah. The lights and portrait faces, but like abstract art means nothing to her. Yeah. She can't even see it. And so a lot of it was me spent like watching the art, watching her, watching the art. Yeah. But I, you know, I try and I, I'm, I'm open to finding more things that are difficult to understand. I think it's why computer programming forces people to have new dreams, right? Because you're learning new things that are not boring. They're right on that edge.

Jack Butcher [01:02:51] And you know what, yeah, like, just to go back to the beginning of the conversation, this NFT boom, I've started to significantly diversify my Twitter feed in the last three months or so. So, you know, maybe six months ago it's like every other tweet was like 10 lessons I learned, build on my startup, you know, how to do X, Y, and Z. It's like very practical, this, this, this, this, this like value, right? But then I like the NFT space, I wanna learn who's like doing well there, who's building relationships with collectors. Like, let me follow, there's like bots that you can follow that just post closed auctions. So you see, you know, this piece just sold this piece just sold this piece just sold. And they'll pull the art itself into the feed. And I think I've found myself over the last few weeks, just like I have an idea, I'm like, where the, where did that come from? And I'll publish it and then it'll almost like the mechanics of it will reveal itself post. So I'll like scroll back down. I was like, oh, I saw that and then I saw that and that this thing is kind of a bridge between those two ideas. So I'm experiencing the same thing, I think. But yeah, I, I, for a minute there I was like getting into this and maybe, and maybe like after you've learned something, it feels like education becomes entertainment to some degree, right? It's like this just this like masturbatory process where you just keep going back over the same ideas as opposed to let's throw something new in the mix and like challenge the way I think about this or, you know, pull in a new way to interpret it or the opposite side of the argument.

Jack Butcher [01:04:39] We could all use a bit more of that.

Vance Crowe [01:04:41] Yeah, I think that, I mean, what one of the things that always happens to me is if I get tired, I want something, I just wanna watch something that's easy, right? I want to like, and I would never say I want to veg out, but that is what's going on. You're just getting into that kind of blank state where your brain is like, ah, the groove we're already comfortable with, we know where we're going here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's why it's so hard to keep picking up a new fiction book or to, to do something that is actually difficult for you because real education is not easy, right? You, you actually, you're like, okay, I learned, I've seen that. It's the difference between being like, I see that equation and I can use that equation, right? I can add numbers in here and see how that manifests in the physical world. And I find that when I'm in my most productive periods, it's where I'm exposing myself to as much art as I can. And maybe art isn't necessarily the best word, but I'm trying to distinguish that between something that challenges me and something that's easy.

Jack Butcher [01:05:41] Yeah. I think art is a good word. We gotta get away from the idea of content because it just doesn't mean anything.

Vance Crowe [01:05:51] So Jack, I I, one of the questions that I love asking people about is this thing I call the Peter Teel paradox. And I think we've talked about this before, but it's the, what is one idea that you believe that almost no one, you know, agrees with you on and you've been able to go off in totally different directions, NFTs, you know, building a, a network in a community. So you definitely have edge things, but you also just had a child. So you may not have any edge case ideas, but do you right now have a Peter Teel paradox, a thing you believe that nobody agrees with you on?

Jack Butcher [01:06:28] Lemme think, I think this is gonna be super niche. So I don't know if it's, you could maybe let me know if this is like not gonna be valuable to your audience, but this idea of the creator economy, how much do you talk about that?

Vance Crowe [01:06:48] No, none. Go ahead.

Jack Butcher [01:06:49] So I think there's something interesting about what's happening with NFTs and like the monetization of creativity directly, but I also think there's this crazy power law structure where you're gonna see, and this is not specific to NFTs, I think it's the, the, the incentives to get involved in something are like almost diverting people from the process to the point where they just get stuck spinning. You know? I think the, like the outcome is becoming so attractive in so many places that we're losing, we're losing like commitment to the craft in so many different areas. So, I mean, I don't even, I'm not forming this thought very well.

Vance Crowe [01:07:47] That's okay. I mean, this is the benefit of it, right? Like you have to push yourself to be able to put a nebulous idea that was in your brain in, into, into like actual linear thoughts.

Jack Butcher [01:07:57] Yeah, I think it's, I think I just, just looking at the, the inequality that, that is amplified by the, the internet, I guess I think there's a narrative of sovereign individuals a great example, right? It's like there's, there is this opportunity that exists, but I think Naval said this maybe more eloquently than I, than I ever could, is like the internet democratizes the opportunity to like con to contribute and try, but it also massively concentrates the results to the winner. So there's just this huge winner take all effect happening in these industries that are positioning themselves as solutions to the same thing happening elsewhere. So I think there's like, we're seeing, like we're gonna see like class divides happen on the internet, if that makes sense with, especially with crypto coming in and getting more mainstream.

Vance Crowe [01:09:11] So there's this concept by a guy named David Goodhart called Somewhere versus anywhere people, so anywhere people live in Cosmopolitan areas, they're, they have transactional relationships, but they're living in high, you know, like it's, it's like me, I was grew up in a small town, I was like, I just want to go live in a big city. I don't care which city, if this one doesn't work out, I'll just go to a different one. And then you have somewhere people who say, you know, there may be opportunities somewhere else, but I wanna stay here because it is here. And that's what I value because I value the network that I'm already in. Well, when you have the internet citizens, then the anywhere people, the Pareto distribution is just in one place, right? The entire internet. So you're gonna have 20% taking 80% of the gains and the rest of the 80% is, is left or the, you know, to, to the, to the masses. And then when you have somewhere people, you maybe don't have such huge mountain peaks that you can get up, but there's a lot more winners because you've got these local little pockets of places where people's creativity or their strength or their leadership skills are not in competition with everyone else's. And I think you're describing the thing that like maybe why there is so much malaise in the world, it's that like, if you suddenly start com, just like we were talking about, the voice can go so much wider because of these technologies. It also means your, your talents have to compete against people that are Yeah,

Jack Butcher [01:10:35] Yeah. I, I think I'm just realizing like you, the, the advantage you get by being even twice as good is like 20 x, you know? So I think like the, you talk about geography no longer being the, I'm not even sure if this is a controversial idea at this point, but geography is no longer the barrier to the opportunity that you can access. And I think we underestimate how aggressively that is gonna dismantle industries and jobs and just people's roles in the world, right? And I think this NFT thing is maybe indicative of some of that too. It's like a lot of people just want to make stuff, right? People wanna, like, we see this everywhere. Like everyone wants to be a writer, everyone wants to make art, everyone wants to be a creator. Everyone wants to have conversations and share those conversations. So it feels to me like maybe this massive boom in like crypto assets or something of that nature becomes like this, you know, funds this society of artists and creators. But I also think the distribution of gains in that world is gonna be so like, just incredibly lopsided.

Vance Crowe [01:11:55] I I, I think you're right. So I don't know that it passes the Peter Thiel paradox, but I think it's actually a really good note to finish out on, right, because I, I think this somewhere. Do you think that now that you're in Nashville instead of New York City, do you think you'll be more involved in your community or about the same?

Jack Butcher [01:12:16] Maybe? You know what's interesting, like depending on the space you're operating in, like New York, the still has the, like the talent physically and the like industry. Like it has the gravity to pull people that are doing big things to it still. So I think there is a trade off that you make in a, in a smaller city, at least now, maybe in a couple of years time that won't be true, but, you know, la, New York, Miami, you're seeing a bunch of that still has like the physical presence of, you know, people who doing big things. And I'm just building my network down here and like music industry is huge in Nashville, for example, if you wanna make music, this is where you come. If you wanna, you know, work in finance, you go work in New York. If you wanna, you know, work in the, in the entertainment business, go to la. So I think that's slowly eroding, but it's taking, it's gonna take some time.

Vance Crowe [01:13:15] Well Jack Butcher man, it was great to see you. I'm so glad to see you're doing well and congratulations on being a father. I'm glad we can share that man. Yeah,

Jack Butcher [01:13:23] Thank you mate. It's a good time. I appreciate you having me on. Good conversation.