How to Become a Better Conversationalist: The Tiniest Choices Game

Vance Crowe [00:00:10] Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here Today. We're gonna continue with the theme of Untying the Knot. We're gonna go in a slightly different direction. We've talked about anxiety, we've talked about some getting past addictions. We've also talked about the cattle markets and how that crazy tight knot is going to get unwound. But today, I wanna give a little bit of a personal skill, something that is difficult to get better at, which is conversation. How do you become a better conversationalist? How do you become the type of person that other people look forward to talking to again, you know, it would be easy to be like, you know what? You just need to listen harder. You need to listen more. But when I talk to people that are nervous about having conversations, they often tell me one of two things. Either one, they are listening in the conversation and when it comes their turn to say something they don't necessarily wanna talk about themselves, but they don't have a question to ask. And so they flummox around and they, they don't say something. And then the other type of person says, you know, I go to ask a question, or I go to say something, and the conversation just kind of dribbles off and ends. And I think that this is one of those things that when you're somebody that's naturally kind of extroverted and conversation is easy, it's difficult to understand this. But I've spent a lot of time thinking about this. And a few months ago, I had an experience where I had to actually isolate this down, write it out and explain it.

Vance Crowe [00:01:42] So I thought I would share it with you. I had a client that wanted me to interview his mother for a legacy interview. And when she got down here, she was really uncomfortable. And that happens a lot. A lot of times when people come to do these interviews, they're doing it because a son or a daughter or a grandchild has asked them to do it. They don't really know what to expect. And so they're reluctant. So this woman and I sit down, we end up having a wonderful conversation. It goes really long when we leave, everyone is happy and excited and it's great. And so the client that had hired me said, Hey, would you come up and talk with my sales team about how to have better conversations with people about what you did to kind of untie that nut and make her more comfortable? And so that prompted me to write out something that I've talked about before with friends, but never really characterize it. And this is the way that you can become better at having conversations is during the conversation, focus on what I call the tiniest choices game. Now, the tiniest choices game is not really a game at all. It's just a way that you can focus on what's going on so that you're totally present in what is going on in the conversation. And yet you can show the person that you are listening to that you are really locked in there, that you know what they're saying and that you appreciate it and that you're interested in it. So maybe one of the things that we should do is stop before I explain the tiniest choices game, and explain what often happens in conversation.

Vance Crowe [00:03:16] So I think there are two major places where conversations fall apart. The first is somebody goes to tell you a story. Let's just say they said, I was dropping my mom and dad off at the, at the train station, and they were gonna go onto a cruise to The Bahamas. And a normal person hears that. And what they do is they say, okay, the conversation ended on talking about The Bahamas. So I'm going to respond to that. And one of the ways that they respond is what I call fast matching. They went to The Bahamas. Well, maybe I went to The Bahamas. So maybe what I should do here is ask a question about where in The Bahamas did they go? Or what crews did they go on, right? And as soon as you do that, you're talking about a person that didn't go on the cruise. It's not really fundamental to them. So they maybe will answer your question, but it's not gonna lead anywhere. And ultimately, if you say, oh, I went to The Bahamas too, where did they go? Even if you get a good answer for that, and then you're gonna be talking about where you went in The Bahamas and the conversation becomes about you. So you don't wanna do that. So fast matching is one of those things that's natural. We do it. We kind of like think that that's the, the way a conversation goes. But you should try and avoid that if you find yourself fast matching slow down. The other way that a conversation kind of spins out of control is that you are sitting there, you're listening to what a person is saying, and you're thinking, I've gotta come up with a good question for them. I've gotta come up with something to say. And so you have this internal dialogue that is going on that actually prevents you from listening to the other person at, at all.

Vance Crowe [00:04:48] So you're sitting there and you're like either thinking about, oh gosh, what am I gonna say? Or, oh, what was their name again? And oh, you know, you just have this dialogue going on and this keeps you from that presence that is required to make people feel and understand that you are with them and that you're really interested in what's going on here. And so that internal dialogue leads you to, you know, stuttering and stammering or just saying something like, oh, that's interesting. And the other person can intuitively feel like, oh, they're, they're not really that interested in what I'm saying. And the conversation fizzles out. So this is where the tiniest choices game comes in, right? We remember if you were thinking about that story, you noticed that there was a detail that was added into that story that really didn't make sense, right? You didn't need to have that, that, that detail in there. So why did they put it in? Right? And that detail, if you recall, is I said we were dropping mom and dad off at the train station, right? The train station to go on a cruise. Whatcha talking about, right? But there's some reason that the person put that detail in there. And the reason is that when someone

Guest [00:05:57] Goes to tell you a story, they're telling you about something that went on in their lives, they're actually reliving it in their minds. In particular, if it's a story they don't tell very often they're describing it to you as they experienced it. So they're imagining themselves, maybe they had to pile kids in the car, maybe their wife was with them, and they're driving their mom and dad to the train station. And so they have to put that detail in because that's what made the story salient to them. And so for me, if I'm playing the tiniest choices game, if the way that I am trying to stay present with this person, instead of saying, oh, I went to The Bahamas, or getting to the end of that thing and saying, oh, interesting. What I'm gonna do is say, wait a second. Why were you taking your parents to the train station when they're going on a cruise? And this is going to make them say, ah, oh, well, you know, mom and dad don't fly and this has been a big problem and da da da, da da. And now you've got them talking. They've got them experiencing that thing. You've got them pulling it apart and sharing with you new details and new things that they're excited to talk about. If they weren't excited, they wouldn't have put those details in, right? If they wanted to avoid it, they wouldn't have brought it up. But those tiny details give you a place to pull on the conversation so that it gets so much richer and it doesn't become about you or about some quick match that you made in that conversation. So this actually happened to me not that long ago. I was talking with a woman, she knows I'm sharing this story with her. I won't share any of the details. In fact, I'll change a few of them. But this is for all intents and purposes, a true story.

Guest [00:07:28] The woman was telling me about the four years she spent totally in love with a, with an artist. And she said, I loved him so much. I would go to his house just to watch him do his art. And, and you know, I, I was there. I I spent four years with him. I remember he used to have me take his dog Wain Wright and watch movies while he was in working away. And I would stop in and check in on him. And, you know, after about four years, the relationship kind of faded and just, just didn't really work out, right? Well, if you're playing the Tiny Choices game, you already know where I'm going with this next question because rather than try and empathize about a relationship that I lost, or instead of asking a question that could be kind of vague or may bring up some memories that she might not be ready to talk about, whatever that is, what did I do? Why did what you'll do the next time you are in a conversation, you're playing the Tiny Choices game. You'd say, wait a second, tell me about this dog wa Wright. This made the woman completely light up. She lit up like a, I don't even know, a glowing bulb or something. She smiles and she's like, oh my gosh, I loved Wayne Wright. He was the most amazing dog. I used to take him for a walk. So I found that he didn't really like the food that he was eating. So I gave him new food. He was the greatest cuddler. And in fact, it was wa Wright that showed

Vance Crowe [00:08:55] Me that my artist boyfriend was never really gonna love me. 'cause my artist boyfriend didn't really love his dog. In fact, the reason that he didn't get rid of his dog was because it was too much work to get rid of him. But he didn't really want him around. And when I realized that I offered to take Wayne Wright with me and, and move along, and he was happy to do it, and the breakup wasn't that painful because I got to take Wa Wright and I got to see that he wasn't really cared about. Neither was I, but we could care about each other. And this opened up more conversation and really made her feel like we were really connecting. She talked about it for a while. She went on to share how it made her feel so good that I noticed that detail. And that is the power of the Tiniest Choices game. So I recorded this. One of the, my Good friends, ke and Krueger had said, Hey, how, how do you play that Tiny Choices game? You told me about it before and I thought it was a really good thing to talk about here. I would hope that throughout your day you start listening to people and you start noticing the tiniest choice, the tiniest detail that they have put into a story that they're telling you. It may not even seem like a detail that they care much about. It oftentimes is something that they've just had in there, because the only way they can explain their story is by reliving it. And that detail was there. But if you make those observations, if you inquire about those things, if you practice this for not very long at all, you will become much, much better at showing another person that you're totally present, you're listening, you are engaged, and that you are a person worthy of being opened up to.

Vance Crowe [00:10:34] Alright, I am going to close it out for here. If you've made it this far, you might wanna consider, I know it seems like a long, long way away, but Christmas is coming up. And one of the best experiences that we hear from our legacy interview clients, this is where we interview their loved ones, to tell life stories so that future generations can know their history and where they came from. If you want to have the experience of sitting around as a family at Christmas time, listening to your loved one tell their legacy interview, then we need to get those scheduled now. We need to get 'em on the calendar. You need to give it as a gift. You need to get 'em down to the studio and get it scheduled. So if you're considering it, don't delay. You can imagine yourself around Christmas time sitting there with the whole family, having everyone say, I am so grateful that we have these stories captured, that we know these memories, that we can ask grandma and granddad or mom and dad to tell us more about these stories. So if you're interested in having me sit down with one of your loved ones, go to Legacy Interviews dot com to find out more. Alright, we'll be back next week. Looking forward to it.