Hostage Negotiator Reveals How to Talk People Down From Violence

Jerald Barnes [00:00:00] On his way to sentencing, he stops by Colonel John Frank's office and holds him hostage. Yo, what we've learned as negotiators is that unless you allow a person to vent, they're not coming out. So I said, the next barricaded hostage situation comes out, I'm, I'm a fly there. I get there and the guy says, Hey, you're the negotiator. I said, yeah, what do you got? And as soon as I pick up the phone, I froze.

Vance Crowe [00:00:28] I can tell you right now, I would choose tyranny over complete anarchy. That's only because I have seen what happens when you have anarchy. And what you get out of that is mob justice.

Jerald Barnes [00:00:37] People who are elderly, who are living in these neighborhoods, they have to come out early in the morning just to get out to go do something by noon or one o'clock, they're locked in their home. Hi everyone. I'm Oliver Crow, a second grade student and an aspiring YouTuber, and you're listening to the Vance

Vance Crowe [00:00:53] Crowe podcast. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Today we have Gerald Barnes, hostage negotiator, former police officer, and now a lecturer that travels around to some of the most elite universities in the entire world to talk about how hostage negotiations can relate to business. We're gonna get to that interview in just a moment, but Mother's Day is right around the corner. One of the things that I've learned from Legacy Interviews is that mothers are often the keeper of the stories, keeper of the secrets keeper of how does this family understand who we were and where we're going? And so it can be a little bit tough to get mom to talk. Her role has always been to make sure that everything is on the up and up, and that the family looks great. But one thing I've also learned is that once Mom has had a chance to talk about her stories, where she came from, so many of the things that happened to her along the way to become the person that she is, every family learns things about their mother that they might not have learned had we not done a legacy interview. If you're interested in getting this very special gift for your mother, or maybe to have her do it with your dad too, go to Legacy Interviews dot com to find out more and use the promo code Mother for 10% off before Mother's Day. All right. Without further ado, let's head to the interview with Gerald Barnes. Gerald Barnes, welcome to

Jerald Barnes [00:02:15] The

Vance Crowe [00:02:15] Podcast. Thank you.

Jerald Barnes [00:02:16] Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Vance Crowe [00:02:18] So you were a hostage negotiator. You ever had, you know, a gun pointed at a person, you're, you're trying to keep them from getting killed? Well,

Jerald Barnes [00:02:26] I had a gun pointed at me while, while I was a police officer within the St. Louis Police Department, I worked some undercover, I worked in a narcotic task force and had, you know, shot at and all that other stuff. So, no, you know, basically with negotiations, I usually come in after this, after the siege has been taken. And so once the siege has been taken and the person is barricaded, then they call the negotiators. Then,

Vance Crowe [00:02:54] Oh, let's back this up. Yes.

Jerald Barnes [00:02:56] So

Vance Crowe [00:02:56] You're talking about like, I I'm picturing in the movies, you know, somebody went through a crime, they did something, now they're backed in a corner, and so they grabbed a person they didn't set out to go grab this

Jerald Barnes [00:03:05] Person. Yeah, you know what, most of the times, some, well, I would say sometimes that some of the hostage situations are somewhat accidental because sometimes they have people in the building that didn't know they were in the building, and now they're holding these people hostage. So basically when I'm on the phone and someone is holding someone hostage, I don't say, oh, you have hostages, because he may not identify them as hostages until I identify them as Right. So I would say, you know, hey, I would, when I, when I, when I talk to a person, my first opening line as I always practice before I get to the scene, is always gonna be the same thing. Hello, my name is Gerald. I'm with the St. Louis Police Department. How can I help you that way? In my opinion, it gets the, it gets me going, it gets me the, that's my opening line, because I learned something before as a new negotiator. So just coming on the team back in the early nineties, I learned from some of the good, the, the good negotiators. A guy by the name of Kerwin Young, who was just, you know, phenomenal. Brian Gilmore, Bob Hogg, some of these Mary Warnke, some of these people that I've learned from. I followed their style because as a new negotiator, they don't let you get on the phone. You know, you're always the secondary negotiator. You're always doing all the listening and writing reports and all that other stuff, so you don't get a chance to get on the phone unless you are the first one at the scene. Right. So I tell this story that I was tired of writing reports.

Jerald Barnes [00:04:39] So I said, the next barricaded hostage situation comes out, I'm, I'm a fly there. And at the time I did have a police car. So came out, hopped in the car, fly into the scene, I get there and the guy says, Hey, you're the negotiator. I said, yeah, what do you got? Tells me everything. You got a guy barricaded inside, you know, he says, okay. I said, where's the command post? They show me where the command post is. I walk in and I get on the phone, and as soon as I pick up the phone, I freeze. I didn't know what to say or any, 'cause I'd never practice.

Vance Crowe [00:05:17] You didn't have

Jerald Barnes [00:05:18] A routine. I didn't have a routine. I never practiced my opening line. And the guy cursed me out, started the hostage taker, was calling me all kind of names and all this other stuff. And then I hung up on him. I hung up on the guy. 'cause I was freaking out because I had never practiced my opening line. Wow. What leads you into the conversation and negotiations?

Vance Crowe [00:05:40] So what's the lesson in that? The

Jerald Barnes [00:05:41] Lesson in that is always prepare beforehand. Always figure out what your opening line is gonna be. That way it comes to you all natural, and then the conversation can start after that, because that way you've already gotten out the kind of the nerves. So your first line is always, hello, my name is Gerald. I'm with the St. Louis Police Department. How can I help you? I

Vance Crowe [00:06:04] Mean, I can relate to that on the podcast level, right? Like, if I had to sit here and come up with a new intro every single time, it'd be really, really hard. But if you just do what you're doing, and then it can go into like, okay, now I don't have to think about that.

Jerald Barnes [00:06:15] Absolutely. So

Vance Crowe [00:06:17] When you get somebody on the phone and you say, Hey, how can I help you? Are they yelling? Yes.

Jerald Barnes [00:06:22] Are

Vance Crowe [00:06:22] They okay?

Jerald Barnes [00:06:23] Oh, yeah. This is not a polite phone call. Let me say this. They are emo, they're on an emotional rollercoaster. So they're up here because when there is a hostage situation, the most violent time of a host situation is the beginning and the end. In between it's just conversation. What you're trying to do by using, what I have learned at the FBI Academy in Quantico is active listening skills. It helps deescalate a situation. This may be the first time that when you pick up the phone to talk to that hostage taker, say it's a domestic situation, or somebody gets in a, in a bank or, or a grocery store, or a seven 11 or whatever the case may be. You know, when this person is up there and their emotional level is high, this may be the first time that, you know, somebody has taken out the time to listen to this person. Of all the frustrations and the fears and the angers and the anxieties that they have suffered through, it brought us to this. So whatever happened in the last 24 to 48 hours, that's all I'm trying to figure out what I can do to calm that person, to get that person back to an emotional balance where they can start making logical decisions on their own.

Vance Crowe [00:07:35] Yeah, they're probably experiencing em emotions on a scale that never felt before, never felt adrenaline coursing through your veins flight or flight. Like, yes.

Jerald Barnes [00:07:44] Not

Vance Crowe [00:07:44] Even really in in their own mind. No,

Jerald Barnes [00:07:46] No, no. And that's the responsibility of a negotiator. So in my opinion, being a good negotiator, the first thing you have to do is control your own emotions, because you may not like that person that you're speaking with. You may have different values than that, than that person that you're speaking with. But you need to leave all that in the, in the background and not use any of that.

Vance Crowe [00:08:10] So aside from the, you know, the swearing at you, what does somebody say in response to, how can I help you?

Jerald Barnes [00:08:17] No, you can't help me. I'm not coming out, you know, one of the first things you do and say, Hey, what's going on? You know, you know, can we get you to come out and talk to me? No, I'm not coming out. And so instead of harping on that, but you have to realize also that there are other detectives there. The St. Louis Police Department Hospice Response Unit is probably one of the top units in the country. These guys, at least the guys that I used to work with, I don't know what the team is like now, but the teams that I used to work with, Jay Cliffel, Vern Summers, Lehman Dobbins, all these guys, Brian Gilmore, all these guys that I worked with were, and, and the intelligence division. So the intelligence division detectives would go out and gather information on the subject that we, that is inside. We may not, I may not know who he is, but the intelligence detectives, they go out, they interview the family, friends and all this other stuff, and then they start giving that information back to the secondary negotiator. Because in negotiations, there is a primary negotiator that does all the talking, and there's a secondary negotiator that does all the listening. So the secondary negotiator listens to the fluctuation and the voice, the emotion going up and down, and, and they provide that information to the primary negotiator, secondary negotiator. All he does is listens, completely listens. That's what his responsibility is. And if he hears something, you're on a topic or a certain conversation with the primary is talking to the hostage taker, and the secondary hears a fluctuation of a voice or something.

Jerald Barnes [00:09:49] Say you start to talk about his parents or his mom, and then he starts calming down the pr the secondary guy, write a little note to you and pass it to you and say, Hey, continue on that conversation.

Vance Crowe [00:10:00] Wow. And what a dance that would be to have somebody else being able to listen in. I know we do these Legacy Interviews and I'm sitting there asking questions, but a week or two later when Sean is editing them, he observes things about this that I don't, because he's not in the moment. Right. He's able to kind of step back. Yeah.

Jerald Barnes [00:10:16] It would be

Vance Crowe [00:10:17] Very powerful in a negotiation.

Jerald Barnes [00:10:19] It's hard. We, what we, what we've learned is hard to talk and listen at the same time. Because as a negotiator, as a secondary negotiator or as a primary negotiator, you're looking, you're not only listening to what the subject is telling you, but you are listening to how he's telling it to you. The emotion in his voice, the content, what he put issues, you know, emotional issues on the fluctuation of his voice. Sometimes you may say something and not get a rise out of him, you know? And sometimes you may say something that will make him explode it, it all depends.

Vance Crowe [00:10:56] And so when they say, Hey, I'm not coming out, where do you go from there? Right?

Jerald Barnes [00:11:00] Yeah. It's like, so you have to find what I call a hook. You gotta find a hook in that person. So you start asking questions. So the good thing about active listening skills is that one of the active listening skills is asking open-ended questions. So when you ask somebody an open-ended question, they have to expound on their answer. And so the more that they talk, the more you as the negotiator be quiet. Because that person, if you continue, if they continue to talk, they're gonna tell you something that they don't want you to know. And then eventually you can go back to that. Or you'll say something like, Hey, do you have any family? You know, tell me about your family. You know, and they will start telling you, maybe they won't, maybe they say, it's none of your effing business. You know, I'm not telling you anything. You know, what can I do to get you to come out? You can't do anything.

Vance Crowe [00:11:51] And do they even know what they want in a lot of these situations?

Jerald Barnes [00:11:55] If it's a planned hostage situation, then they know exactly what they want. They may want somebody out of prison or whatever the case may be. Or, you know, I don't, I don't know. Yeah. What

Vance Crowe [00:12:06] Have you heard? I,

Jerald Barnes [00:12:07] I have never had a plan hostage situation before.

Vance Crowe [00:12:10] Oh,

Jerald Barnes [00:12:11] Mine have always been either criminals or crimes that are in progress or that has happened, either domestics or a domestic situation. Husband and wife, boyfriend and girlfriend, father and son, mother and daughter. Or it's been a jumper. People like to jump off the, the Ease bridge over there in downtown St. Louis, or I had a kid that was gonna jump from the elevator shaft downtown right across from Famous and Bar. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:12:43] And so in in your role, the a person in a crime and a person jumping off a bridge both require hostage negotiators?

Jerald Barnes [00:12:51] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:12:52] Oh, very interesting.

Jerald Barnes [00:12:53] So you, you either go into hostage negotiation or, or barricaded suicide person. So we got somebody that wants to jump. It's is suicidal. So, you know, they're pretty much depressed, you know, about something that has happened. Something in the last 24 to 48 hours has happened in their life to make them decide they want to take their lives. And so one of the things I try to learn about them or try to emphasize is that what was their life like? Who, who they, you know, who they loved, who was close to them. And then I start focusing on that and trying, like I said, trying to get a hook in them and, you know, and, and make statements as to, you know, what would your parents say? I know you love your parents very well, you know, and you have a great relationship with them. What do you think they're gonna feel if, if you decide to jump? How do you think they're, how do you think that's gonna make them feel? You know? So it's, it's, it's more trying to get into a personal relationship with them.

Vance Crowe [00:13:54] So, yeah. So what is the structure of the negotiation? What, what are you, because a person in a crime that's asking for, you know, freedom, there's things that they want that they're, you're not gonna give them. Right? Right.

Jerald Barnes [00:14:05] You

Vance Crowe [00:14:06] Can't use,

Jerald Barnes [00:14:06] So usually what happens is, say that somebody comes in and decides they wanna rob the seven 11. Okay? So the St. Louis Police Department will call what we call a seventy two fifty. I don't know why they use that code, but they've been using that code forever. And 72 50 means we have a hostage slash suicide barricaded individual. And so they call out the hostage response team, which is made up of about 20 hostage negotiators, scene commanders and hostage negotiators and scene commanders. And then there's the tactical team part about it. You know, the guys in the Black ninja suit, the MP fives and all that. I really wanted to be one of those guys when I first saw it, oh my God, I just, I just thought that was so cool. But after a while, you know, there's laying in positions and you know, with the St. Louis weather, it may be warm, and then all of a sudden it gets cold and it starts to rain and it starts to snow. Well, they're still holding their positions, like, but the negotiators, they're in the command van where they got a coffee maker, water popcorn popper, all that other stuff. And I thought, Hey, you know what? The best thing for me to do is be a negotiator. I am, I can't handle the elements. But, so they come out, they surround the building, the uniform probably has the building surrounded already. So they relieve the uniform guys, the tactical team, and they get in the layout of the building or what's in it and all this other stuff. And so sometimes, and then the negotiators, they come in and there is a negotiation going on between the negotiators and the two scene commanders.

Jerald Barnes [00:15:38] So there is a scene commander over the tactical team, and as a scene commander over the negotiation negotiator team. So they're talking to the overall commander. And this, of course, the tactical guys. They say, Hey, we can have this done and over with in 10 minutes, in and out. You know, there may be a couple casualties, but we can get this done. The negotiator scene commander said, Hey, let's talk to 'em. Let's find out what they want first before we start, you know, throwing flash bangs in and all that other stuff. And usually the negotiator side wins. And so that's a negotiation going on. And there's a negotiator going, negotiations going on between the two negotiators. 'cause there's a primary negotiator and a secondary negotiator. The primary guy does all the talking. The secondary guys does all the listening and writing, all the reports. And the reports are detailed. Who was there, what their department serial number was, is what time did you ask 'em to come out? What happened after this? Who was the tactical guys? Were there, what, you know, what's the building? Did we shut off the electricity? Who did we talk to? I mean, all that has to be in the police report. And so nobody really wants to write the report because you're spending two days writing a report. And so there's a negotiation going on there. But finally, after all that's worked out, you have the primary negotiator and the, and the, and the secondary negotiator. And they're doing, like I said, the primary guy's doing all the talking.

Vance Crowe [00:17:01] So what are you empowered if you're the negotiating team to give them, right?

Jerald Barnes [00:17:07] I don't promise anything because I've learned from different situations that I've had that I promised something and I wasn't able to deliver for one story is, there was a kid that was, and I told you, I started about this, this kid was on the elevator shaft at the famous bar building downtown across the street, famous bar parking lot, right across the street from the famous bar building. And it was a hot summer day, and he decided that he wanted to end his life. And when I got there, he was sitting on the top of the elevator shaft with his feet dangling over. It was too close for the fire department to put a net up because they didn't have enough room. But this kid was probably, I don't know, seven, eight stories up on the top garage on the top of the garage, but also on the top of the elevator shaft. And, and there was two policemen up there talking to him. So I show up, and then I, before I usually go in to start my negotiations, I always say a prayer, always. And I asked the Lord for strength to guide me through what's about to happen. And so I went up and I, and what I did was I, the kid had left his book back. So I took his book back and I started reading what was in his notebook. And this kid wrote poetry and he was really good at it.

Jerald Barnes [00:18:38] And so I went in and, and so I was talking to him and I said, well, what brought you here today? Why you decided that you want to do this? And I said, well, hey, look, before you decide to jump, let's, let's just talk. I said, you can always jump in the next 15 minutes, next 20 minutes, hour, the next day or whatever, but would you just give me the courtesy to let me learn about you? And then he says, well, people, the kids at school were making fun of me because they think I'm gay, because I write poetry. And I said, oh, okay. He says, and I'm not gay. And I said, what does it matter? I said, you have a gift that God has given you to be able to put words together on paper and express your feelings. I can't do that. Maybe the kids that was making fun of you, they can't do it either. That's why they're making fun of you. And so, as we're going through this negotiation, the police officers standing there lit a cigarette and the kids said, can I have a, can I have a cigarette? And I heard the other policeman say to the other policeman, Hey, once I give him the try to get him to reach for the cigarette, you grab his arm and we can pull him down. And I told the kid, I said, don't grab the cigarette. 'cause these officers are gonna try to pull you down. And he's like, what? I was like, yeah. So in my opinion, that build a rapport and trust with that, with this kid. Right? And so we continued to talk and, and I knew that he liked Stephen King novels and all this other stuff.

Jerald Barnes [00:20:13] So we, we were talking and he said, I'll come down if you promise me that you won't take me to Malcolm Bliss State Hospital. I've been there before and I don't wanna go back. And I said, of course I won't, I won't take you there. You know, we'll get you someplace else that we'll get you some help. And he came down and we walked out to the ambulance and my commander said, okay, take him to Malcolm Bliss Hospital. I said, I promised him I wouldn't take him there. And my commander said, I don't care what you promised, this is what's gonna happen. And they took him to Malcolm Bliss Hospital. And so I went to the bookstore and got like about four or five Stephen King novels and went to Malcolm Bliss Hospital and the state hospital actually. And I asked the people there if I could see him, and they said yes. And so he was in his room, and I walked in with these books and I said, Hey, do you remember me? He says, oh yeah, I remember you. You're the guy who says I wasn't going to be going to Malcolm Bliss Hospital.

Vance Crowe [00:21:13] Ooh,

Jerald Barnes [00:21:14] Yeah. That crushed me. I felt crushed. And I gave him the books and we built a, a rapport and, you know, and I, and I had to explain to him why that happened, because I'm not in charge, you know, so I can, I can make promises, but it ruins your credibility.

Vance Crowe [00:21:35] Yeah.

Jerald Barnes [00:21:35] When you do that and you can't follow through.

Vance Crowe [00:21:38] It's an interesting thing to have a suicide be a hostage negotiation, right? Like there's something intuitively like, maybe it's the way I was raised, maybe I'm just not very empathetic, where I'm like, somebody making you do something by a threat of harm to themselves. It to me, that feels so aggressive towards me. You do, you, do you

Jerald Barnes [00:22:01] Sense that? No. You know what? Because a person is in crisis. And when a person's in crisis, there's no telling what they may do. And as a sworn law enforcement officer, I'm there to serve and protect. And as a hostage negotiator, I'm there to save lives. That's what I do. To me, a successful hostage situation is getting the hostages out and getting the hostage taker out. Everybody comes out alive. Mm.

Vance Crowe [00:22:27] To

Jerald Barnes [00:22:27] Me, that's success. Where there's no injuries, nobody get hurt or anything else like that. To me, that's the best, that's the best ending to a situation.

Vance Crowe [00:22:37] And so let's talk about some of these ones that are horrifying. I mean, all of 'em are horrifying, but the, I I think of these domestic disputes, right? Yeah. A fight goes wrong.

Jerald Barnes [00:22:45] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:22:46] Somebody pulls out a knife and now all of a sudden there's a boyfriend, you know, threatening his girlfriend. Tell me about this.

Jerald Barnes [00:22:51] So I had a situation in the 8,800 block of Riverview. I'll never forget it. This guy meets this young lady at a skating rink, and they go skating. And you know, they go out on a date after, after meeting at the skating rink. Next couple days she call, he calls her and goes out on a date. Couple days later, he comes by her house and knocks on the door. And she says, what are you doing here? You didn't even call me to say you were coming by. He says, you don't understand. I'm moving in, kicks in the door, ties her up, sexual assaults her, her daughter happens to call. He let her an, he let her answer the phone. And she says, mom, she says, she says, mommy, what are you doing? She says, I can't talk right now. I'm having sex. And then hangs up the phone and the girl's like, that's not like my mother to talk to me like that. She gets in the car, drives over to her mother's apartment in the 8,800 block of Riverview. She gets there, she knocks on the door. 'cause the key won't work. You know, the guy has barricaded the front door. He has barricaded the back door with a refrigerator. He has put sheets, comforters, and all this other stuff over the windows. And he opens, he's moving the furniture, and he opens the door and he's got a knife to this woman's neck that he's holding hostage. The, the, the daughter runs out thousand 9, 1 1 calls 9 1 1.

Jerald Barnes [00:24:24] In the meantime, the guy who's holding this woman hostage calls 9 1 1 and says, I need to speak to a hostage negotiator. Now, I had been doing this for maybe about 12, 13 years. No one has ever requested our presence. No one has ever requested, I need to speak to a hostage negotiator. So we get there, and the guy's name is Wayne. So I, you pick up the phone, we call him and he won't answer the phone. And so the tactical team can't get in and they don't have any eyes on the inside because the guy has covered up all the windows. So we had to decide that we are gonna turn off the utilities, so we're gonna shut off the lights, the gas and everything, and, and, and try to get a throw phone, what we call a throw phone inside the, the building. So that way he can't talk on the phone, he can only talk to us through the throw phone. And the throw phone is attached to the command van, which is on a generator. So that throw phone will work as long as we got gas in the, in the, the, the command van. So we decided to turn off and we, but we couldn't get the, we couldn't get the throw phone in because we had no eyes into the building. And so we take over the apartment building where this lady's living.

Jerald Barnes [00:25:55] She's living on the second floor of the, of the four family flat. And we are, we tell those people that across the hall from her and across the hall on the first floor, we, the tactical team, get them out of the building and we take over the, the, the tactical team is right below them and across the hall from this apartment up here on the left hand side. And the negotiating, we set up a command post inside the apartment on the first floor. And so we're in somebody's apartment. We asked them to leave, and they were generous enough to leave. And it was for their safety too, because we don't know what the guy name is, Wayne. We don't know what Wayne had. And so we're taking over somebody's apartment and we're setting up and all this other stuff. And we pick up the phone and we try to talk to him, and he doesn't wanna talk to us. And finally, after about five or six hours, I finally get him on the phone. And I said, so Wayne, what's going on? This is, my name is Gerald. I'm with the St. Louis Police Department. How can I help you? What's, what's going on? He's like, you don't know who I am. I said, well, why don't you tell me who you are? He's tell me his name. So Wayne, Wayne Agnew. I was like, okay. He says, and, and, and, and I've done this before. And I was like, oh, really? When did, when, when did this? I don't wanna talk about it, but you can check with the police and they'll tell you. So of course, we had our intelligence division look him up. Well, yeah, of course he did it in St. Louis County. And I must admit, because St. Louis County had a positive relationship with him during their negotiation, it made it easier for me, for our negotiation team to work with him.

Jerald Barnes [00:27:33] So we we're talking, and we're not talking about him holding in the woman hostage. We're talking about all other kind of things. We're talking about sports, we're talking about, I'm a big Cub fan. He's a big Cardinal fan. We talked about the Cub Cardinals rivalry. We talked about his family. We talked about when he was in the penitentiary before we talked about some of his friends. We're having this conversation. We're not talking about the elephant in the room just yet, right? Because I'm letting him direct the conversation. I don't even ask about the woman in the, in the, in the, in the apartment. I asked about her one time when I said to him, I said, Hey, Wayne, are you okay? And the woman's name was Loretta. I said, is Loretta okay? And he said, yeah, she's fine. And I'm cool. And that was the end of it. I didn't ask him anymore about her, because I don't want him, I don't wanna label her as a hostage when he hasn't done that. So why put that tag on her, even though he is holding her hostage? You know? But sometimes when you're in this negotiations and you know, you're on this emotional rollercoaster up and down, you know, people are not thinking rational. So I asked 'em, I said, so what happened today, man? What, why are you, you know, after about, and then, and of course we were taking breaks during the negotiations, and then we would, you know, talk about some of the things that we talked about as a team and as a negotiation team, and some of the things that we should focus more on, and some of the things we should just let it go by the wayside.

Jerald Barnes [00:29:05] And still, we're getting more information coming in through the intel. And so finally I get on the phone and we find out that every time we gave him a break, he would sexually assault our victim. And, and I could hear, because we did finally use the, we didn't use our throw phone, but we used the phone that we had in there. So what the intel guys do is they capture the phone through at and t, Southwestern Bell, whatever the case may be. So he, even if he tries to dial out, it'll come to us. And, and, and nobody else has that phone number. We, we have at and t change the phone number, give it directly to us, and that's it. So I could hear Loretta in the background saying, don't come in. He's gonna kill me if you guys try to come in, if you know. And, and the tactical team was like, Hey, we can't breach because you can't do a surprise breach because there's a refrigerator on the back door, and he's got furniture up against the front door, and we have no eyes on the inside. We could just hear him. 'cause we're right below him. We could hear him sexually assaulting a woman while you guys take a break. So do us a favor, stop taking breaks. So we had to stop taking breaks. And then when Wayne wanted to take a break, I would have to talk him through that break. So I was still talking to him, Hey, let's you know, well, let's talk about this, you know, or I'll bring up something that we have a common bond on, like baseball. And I start talking about that again and try to get him engaged by asking open-ended questions.

Jerald Barnes [00:30:39] And as time goes on, I asked. So I, I got to the point where I thought I had built a rapport with him. And so I asked him, I said, so what happened? How'd you get here today, man? What, what's going on? He says, well, you know, I lost my job and I have no place to live. And I like, and I like Loretta, but she won't let me move in. And I said, well, why didn't you say that from the beginning? I have some contacts. I can get you a, I can get you a place to live and I can have somebody give you a job, but they can't interview you while you're in the building with ho hol Loretta against her will. He says, you can do that for me. I say, yeah, well, my idea of him having a place to live was back in the penitentiary. Of course. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:31:31] And

Jerald Barnes [00:31:31] Whatever job they have him do while he's in the penitentiary, right? So after about, after about 12, 14, 15 hours, he decided to come out and he gave up. And to me, that was a successful hostage negotiations. Loretta was of course, shaken to the core, but Wayne was in custody, and I think he got 25 to life. And she thanked me so much. Loretta and her daughter thanked me so much for not going in. But I don't think we had any intentions on going in. And, and I must compliment the guys on the tactical team that showed patience. I mean, those guys, those guys, I, I couldn't do my job without those guys because they provide protection for me when I have to go behind the, the body bunkers and do bullhorn negotiations. They protect me when I'm inside of a structure and I have to, you know, stand behind them to negotiate. And they, and, and they always, always are just very professional.

Vance Crowe [00:32:38] How frequently are hostage negotiations happening?

Jerald Barnes [00:32:42] Sometimes we have, back when I was there, I would say we probably averaged 12, 13 a year. So they became, and, and that's just, that's not counting the barricaded people and the jumpers and all this other stuff, you know? So yeah, it gets, it was at some time of the year, we were all busy. We were all busy. So as a matter of fact, we had one night, we had two in a row, so we had to split the team up.

Vance Crowe [00:33:15] And how is this for you? Right? Like, there's very few jobs where, you know, the margin for error is not just like, oh, I, you know, didn't succeed, but like, oh, they killed the other person. They killed, you know?

Jerald Barnes [00:33:28] Yeah. I, you know, I, I have been blessed that I have never had one go tactical out of all the years I've been doing this. None of them have gone tactical. And most of them have, well, all of them have been peaceful resolutions. But yeah, you try to, you can't take, you can't take responsibility for what happens inside that house or what's whatever happens inside that structure because you're not in control that person who's in control. It's the hostage taker. They're in control of it. But you tried, like you said, like I said before, you try to build a rapport with them to have a, have a peaceful resolution.

Vance Crowe [00:34:04] You mentioned training at Quantico with the FBI. Yeah. What is, what can you teach somebody about such high stake negotiations?

Jerald Barnes [00:34:12] So I was very blessed and fortunate to, first my training first consist of by a gentleman by the name of Harvey Schlosberg. Harvey Schlosberg was a New York City police officer. He's the one who coined, who started this whole thing of hostage negotiations. As a matter of fact, a movie was made at, with Harvey Schlosberg, it's called Dog Day Afternoon with Al Pacino. I don't know if you've ever seen that movie? No Movie. It's a great movie called Dog Day Afternoon, where a guy who was at Al Pacino and his lover, I would say Rob a bank. It's a man, and they're trying to get enough money so this guy can get a sex change. And it's a, it's, it's, it's based on a true story that happened in New York. And Harvey Schlosberg was one of the negotiators that, that did this. So Harvey, Harvey went around the country training other law enforcement agencies on hostage negotiations. And, and he passed away years ago. But he was considered by most to be the grandfather of hostage negotiation. I was fortunate enough to be trained by him. He was one of my trainers. And after I left him, I was then asked, I was selected by the special agent in charge of St. Louis at the time. He was, he selected me to go to Quantico for three, three weeks. Three weeks, four weeks, three weeks, four weeks of intense advance hostage negotiations.

Jerald Barnes [00:35:49] And as a matter of fact, I was, I was fortunate enough to have one of my, one of my teachers, Gary Nester, who did Waco and Ruby Rich, he was one of my, he was one of my instructors. Instructors at,

Vance Crowe [00:36:03] Well, those didn't go very well.

Jerald Barnes [00:36:04] No, they did not go very well. Absolutely. And you know what, and and people say that, and it's true, it did not go well. But we learned a lot from those things. And, you know, and there are a lot of hostage situations that don't go well. And it's not necessarily because of the negotiator. Like when, if you take Waco, when you look at it, the negotiators, from what I've learned and, and, and, and seen and the case studies and the movies and the documentaries that the n negotiators were operating on faith. I mean, they were, they, they believed in what they were saying to get David Koresh out and, and the hostages and the other individuals that were living there. But you had a miscommunication between what the negotiators were saying and what the tactical team was doing. So they're talking about peace as negotiators, but the tactical team is running over their cars with tanks and all this other stuff, and playing loud music and shining light in there. And

Vance Crowe [00:37:08] There's no chance that the people inside the barricades can distinguish between the negotiating team and

Jerald Barnes [00:37:12] The tax absolute team. Sure. Absolutely. They think they're all one, right?

Vance Crowe [00:37:14] Yeah, of course.

Jerald Barnes [00:37:15] So that, that, that's why I believe one of the biggest reasons why it didn't go well. But yeah, so I was trained there and then there in Quantico, I don't know if you've ever been to Quantico, I

Vance Crowe [00:37:27] Know where it is

Jerald Barnes [00:37:28] There. Yeah. So we had Monday through Friday's, daytime was classroom work. And that was basically a lot of talking about the history of hostage negotiation, talking about active listening skills, you know, that we use controlling yourself and your own emotions. And then in the eve, and then we did case studies and stuff like that. But then in the evening time, which we didn't really know, is that they have a place in the back called Hogan's Alley, which is a restaurant motel. It's like a little city. And at night, in the middle of the night, one of the trainers will come to your room, knock on the door and say, Hey, we got a hostile situation here in Hogans Alley. You're up. And you could have been out at what we call the, the boardroom upstairs in Quantico in the building. You could have been up there having beers all night long. And then all of a sudden someone comes knocking on your door at two or three o'clock in the morning. And so when you walk into this room, like when I walked into this room, there are all my instructors sitting there with notepads. And so while you are walking over there to Hogan's Alley, you and the secondary negotiator, they're passing you notes, telling you what's going on. And here's the hostage situation. Here's what's going on. And you're trying to read and walk at night trying to read all this information. And then you walk into this room, and then all your trainers are lined up against the wall, and you can't say anything to them. You can't ask for any assistance or anything else like that. It's like you're walking into a host situation and you gotta perform and they judge you from the time that you walk in the room to the time that you leave the situation.

Jerald Barnes [00:39:09] And how do you introduce yourself when you walk into the room as you, you know, like I said before, hello, my name is Jerome with the St. Louis Police Department, how can I help you? Is that a strong introduction? Yeah. You're telling the person who you are, you know who you represent, and what can you do to help them, you know? And then it goes from there. And you have a person on the other end that is act that is an actor, but he's one of your trainers also. But they're talking about, they're going over live scenarios that ha have happened. And now you are getting a chance to negotiate those things. And lemme tell you what, it's intense. It's, yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:39:46] I think one of the biggest challenges of, of field, like the one you're in, is that the only way to really train, like you can do the practice one, right? But there is something tangibly different. And, and like, the only way you can really give, it's like juujitsu, right? Yeah. It's, it's like you can only learn how to do juujitsu if the other person is trying as hard as they can to take you down, right? That's

Jerald Barnes [00:40:07] Right.

Vance Crowe [00:40:08] Because, because anything less than that Yeah. Isn't real. It's, it's not alive. Yeah.

Jerald Barnes [00:40:12] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:40:12] And it's not like dancing where you're like, oh, we're both trying to cooperate to get this thing resolved.

Jerald Barnes [00:40:16] Yeah. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:40:17] But I would imagine that those kinds of experiences set you up for at least having a baseline before you Oh,

Jerald Barnes [00:40:24] Yeah. Yeah. So it, it, it, it kinda, it it's pressure of course, but that's the pressure you're gonna feel when you go out into the field and you start doing these things, right? And so it makes you kind of adapt to the pressure. So when you get out there, you say, okay, I had that pressure. I know what this is. Like, I just gotta make sure that I maintain, you know, my level of professionalism and try to stay calm and don't let my emotions get involved in this, in this situation. Because sometimes it's tough. It's tough. I mean, you have people hollering and screaming and cursing at you and all this other stuff, and you asking them to come out and come out and come out and they're not,

Vance Crowe [00:41:03] And you got your life going on too. You got

Jerald Barnes [00:41:05] Right

Vance Crowe [00:41:06] Kids at home and

Jerald Barnes [00:41:07] Bills

Vance Crowe [00:41:07] To pay

Jerald Barnes [00:41:08] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:41:08] Problems with your boss and people you don't like to working with. And on top of that, you gotta keep it all

Jerald Barnes [00:41:15] Together

Vance Crowe [00:41:15] And make it seem as authentic as possible. Right.

Jerald Barnes [00:41:18] Right, right. Because, you know, you have, like I said, you have hostage situations and barricaded and, and jumpers, and you have to perform. You have to perform. People are looking at you to what you're gonna do. And it's, it's, it's, it's difficult sometimes. There are a lot of, so after, you know, during a situation, it's, it's intense. I can't tell you how intense it is. It's, it's, it's hard to describe. And then after it's over with, I can't sleep. I can't go home and just take a shower and just sleep. I can't, I'm up for hours. Hours, you know, I may not sleep, you know, and then I have to get up and go to work in the morning. So, you know, even when I'm finished, you know, 'cause most of the guys, well, all of the guys that are on the negotiating team, in the tactical team, they're all policemen. So they have to leave there and go patrol.

Vance Crowe [00:42:12] Oh, back to regular. They

Jerald Barnes [00:42:14] Go back to regular duty. Absolutely. Oh, I

Vance Crowe [00:42:15] Didn't realize that. 'cause you're not just sitting there waiting for

Jerald Barnes [00:42:17] Bell

Vance Crowe [00:42:18] To ring like negotiators, you're up. No. You're doing regular police work and you're a part of the negotiation team.

Jerald Barnes [00:42:23] Absolutely.

Vance Crowe [00:42:24] Oh wow.

Jerald Barnes [00:42:25] Absolutely. Yeah. So you may finish something at four o'clock in the morning, roll calls at seven.

Vance Crowe [00:42:31] Wow.

Jerald Barnes [00:42:33] So, you know, they may give you some leeway. Okay. You're on, you're out at, you know, on a negotiation hostage situation. Okay, we understand that. But we can't deadhead cars. We need you in a car. You know, so you get in a car and you do your patrol Wow. And you do whatever it is. Yeah. I worked. So I was fortunate enough, I, and I, and I must admit, I, my career has been, I have been totally blessed with my career. I, I can't say enough. I I, I'm originally from Chicago, so I was looking, I wanted to be a policeman. And so what I did, I applied in Chicago, Miami, St. Louis, and I think Texas or something like that. And I got so frustrated when no one would call me. And I said, I'm going, whoever calls me first. And so April the first, I get a call and the guy, he says, Hey, my name is Larry Brockley. I'm from the, you know, St. Louis Police department. 'cause I have taken all the exams and all that other stuff. And he says, we wanna offer you a position. Well, it's April the first. Right. And my friends knew that I was trying to get on a police force. So, and, and from time to time they would call me and prank me. Right. So I thought this was a prank. I was like, Hey dude, hey Tony. Quit playing. And I hung up.

Vance Crowe [00:43:48] Oh, oh no.

Jerald Barnes [00:43:49] Yeah. And so the guy calls back, Larry calls back again and he is like, no, this is Mr. Brock Sby from the St. Louis Police Department, you know, personnel division. I was like, dude, would you quit playing on the phone? And I hung up again. And so he called me, he says, this is the last time I'm gonna call you. Here's my number three one four. When I saw the 3 1 4, I was like, oh crap. That is the, and I called him back and I said, I'm so sorry Mr. Bronco speed. He is like, yeah. He says, so we have a position open. Can you report to the academy on April the fourth? Now here it is, April the first. Can you report to the academy on April the fourth? And I was like, I live in Chicago. So I had to pack up everything I own in a, in a, in a U-Haul truck. And I drove to St. Louis and April the fourth, I was going through the police academy. April the fourth, 1988, I was going through the police academy. And I was in the police academy from April to August when I graduated. And it's just, so, it's, it's, it's strange how these things, so after being out of the academy for a year, one of my, one of the guys that I graduated in the academy with John Frank, his father was the president of the priest police board, Mr. Frank, prince of a guy, very nice guy. His son, prince of a guy. John and I, and, and then John, I wind up becoming partners. And when we worked in Intel together, but before that we were in academy. So I, I had maybe about a year out of the academy, and we get this call for a hostage situation that this guy by the name of Anthony Elli, who was I guess the president of our pension system, he had stole, allegedly, well he was found guilty of raiding our pension fund.

Jerald Barnes [00:45:35] And on his way to sentencing, he stops by Colonel John Frank's office and holds him hostage. No? Yes. Now lemme show you, lemme tell you how good negotiations is and how, how well they work. Anthony Elli was a police officer, but also he was a hostage negotiator and he was a tactical guy. So he's holding Colonel Frank hostage in his law office. And this is probably 89 90. So he's holding him hostage. They call out a seventy two fifty hostage situation. Bob Hogg was the negotiator. Now Bob Hogg and Anthony Denali, they know each other. Right. They know each other because you know the team. Right. I think during the standoff, Anthony Delli had three requests, demands. He wanted to tell his story to the media. He wanted to, he did not want to be prosecuted federally for holding Colonel Frank hostage. And there was one more thing that he wanted, and I just can't recall what it was. And after, after several hours, I would say 7, 8, 9 hours of negotiating with Anthony Denali and using active listening skills and all the other things that we have trained as negotiators.

Jerald Barnes [00:47:17] Anthony Denali gave up, gave up without getting any of his demands met. That's how good hostage negotiations is. And that's how good, you know, if you learn how to use the skills that we've all trained to use, I if it can work on a train negotiator, it can work on someone who's not a negotiator. So yeah. And then they made a movie about this.

Vance Crowe [00:47:43] Is that the negotiator? That's

Jerald Barnes [00:47:44] The negotiator.

Vance Crowe [00:47:45] Wow. With

Jerald Barnes [00:47:46] Samuel L. Jackson.

Vance Crowe [00:47:46] Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that. Yes.

Jerald Barnes [00:47:48] It's based on that. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:47:50] So when you talk about the negotiation skills, like I come from the School of Negotiations called interest based negotiating. You have what you're interested in. I have what I'm interested in. And it may be different than our positions. Your position may be, I want this thing to happen. But really it's what's the reasoning behind why you want that thing to happen when you're in a negotiation with somebody and you don't liken that one where you said, we didn't give him anything that he wanted. What are you doing to be able to help them see that their interests are being met by walking out the door? So,

Jerald Barnes [00:48:21] So when we talk about negotiations and in a hostage situation, remember I told you there's an emotional imbalance that person's on a rollercoaster. So what we are trying to do as negotiators by building that rapport and using empathy and active listening skills, what we're trying to do is make that person come back to reality somewhat. So you can see that, okay, you're surrounded, you're not leaving. 'cause we're not leaving. So you gotta, you, you gotta eventually face the, the music. But what we've learned as negotiators is that unless you allow a person to vent, to have their say, they're not coming out. They have all this buildup inside of them, and now it's come to this point in their lives where now they're taking other people, you know, or holding people against their will. They have all this anger and frustration and despair build up. You gotta let them release that. And until they release that, and they may, they may take it out on you, but that's what you get paid to do as a negotiator. You, you are willing to take that as long as it's not projected on the hostages, you know? But, 'cause once you start, and I just wanna say this, once you start killing hostages, my responsibility now as a negotiator is to get you to come to a window or a door or something like that. So the tactical team, the sharp shoes can take you out. That's, that's my responsibility. And, and, and if you start hurt hurting people, that means that, that it's, it's no more negotiations.

Jerald Barnes [00:49:54] The tactical team has got to breach and they have to go in. So let's not get confused that an active shooter is totally different from a hostage situation. Totally different. If you have an active shooter, the tactical team responsibility is to go in and, and, and eliminate that threat or make that threat focus on them instead of the victims. Right. And we have a hostage situation, and, and, and nobody has been harmed so far, then let's talk. That's the most important thing. But like I said before, people are an emotional rollercoaster. So you use active listening skills, you show empathy, you know, you ask open-ended questions, you paraphrase what that person is saying to you to let that person know that you understand what they're saying. You're a part of this conversation, you're playing an active role. You mirror sometimes some of the things that they say to you because that lets them know that oh, well, he understands.

Vance Crowe [00:50:50] Yeah. I've always said, when I learned mirroring before my wife and I got married, we took this class.

Jerald Barnes [00:50:55] Right.

Vance Crowe [00:50:55] And it was like, you just gonna repeat back for her exactly what you heard her say, instead of argue with her. And I'm like, this ist gonna work, right. Like this, this like, she's going to know that I'm just repeating it back for her. It's only gonna make her more mad. Right? Right.

Jerald Barnes [00:51:08] But

Vance Crowe [00:51:09] The reality is, when somebody articulates what they just heard you say, you're like, oh, they do get me. They do understand me. And you notice like the volume of their voice going down. Absolutely.

Jerald Barnes [00:51:21] Yeah. And

Vance Crowe [00:51:22] Like Yeah, that's what I've been trying to tell you.

Jerald Barnes [00:51:23] Yeah. Right. You get it. Right. Right, right.

Vance Crowe [00:51:26] And I think it's because most of us go, most of our lives without anybody ever really listening to you, you, you listen enough to be like, I'm gonna take that food order. I'm gonna, I'm gonna understand what I need to do to get this past this thing. Right.

Jerald Barnes [00:51:38] But to

Vance Crowe [00:51:38] Like really listen almost never happens even inside of close families.

Jerald Barnes [00:51:43] Right? Right. And so I like, I use active listening skills and I practice on my friends, you know, I practice on my friends so I can become better as a negotiator. But using mirror paraphrasing, you know, iMessages, that, that, that, that we use open-ended questions. What

Vance Crowe [00:52:04] Are iMessages?

Jerald Barnes [00:52:05] So iMessages is basically where if I'm, I'm in a, I'm in a negotiations and the hostage taker is now using profanity and all kind of language towards me and being toward verbally aggressive towards me. So not to, not to destroy the rapport that I built with him. I would take the blame for that. I would say something like, Hey, I can't really understand you when you curse at me like that, that way it is not on him. It's me who can't understand. Right. I can't understand when you scream and holler, you know, I understand, I understand that you are frustrated and upset because sometimes you have to label people's emotions. Right? Oh, I can see that. That really bothers you. I can see that. You know, that's, that's a, a a not a good, not a good topic you want to talk about right now, you know, but in that person's mind, they're thinking, well, this guy, he gets it. He knows what's bothering me. He knows my frustration, my dis

Vance Crowe [00:53:12] He's not trying to make me mad, he's not trying to ignore my, that's really good. Yeah. I like this concept of labeling emotions.

Jerald Barnes [00:53:18] Like

Vance Crowe [00:53:19] I, I know with our kids, like our 3-year-old, if you can label what it is that she's like feeling, all of a sudden now you can deal with it. If it's just this like burst of emotion Right. And you don't put a name to it, it's nearly impossible to get your arms around it.

Jerald Barnes [00:53:34] Absolutely. And people will tell you as I learned through negotiations, that people will tell you if you label it wrong, but that's okay. At least you tried. You, you know, it is like, oh, well you sound frustrated. I I'm not frustrated. But, you know, they're frustrated, but you're not gonna like angry. Right, right. Yeah. Right, right. I'm angry. Yeah. Oh, okay. You're angry. Okay. Okay. So can you tell me what you're angry about so we can do, you know, work this out because I don't wanna make you angry. I'm here to help. And so, you know, when you have situations like that, you, you do emotional labeling, like I said, mirroring, paraphrasing, you know, open-ended questions because that is a way to engage. And like I said before, this is probably be the first time somebody's taking the time out to listen to this individual, which makes it great. You know?

Vance Crowe [00:54:29] So you now travel around and talk to, you know, pretty elite schools. What is it that they want to know about negotiations?

Jerald Barnes [00:54:36] So, I have been to, I have, I first started speaking at Washington University here in St. Louis. And then I left there and started speaking at Cornell, at the Johnson Business School for probably 10 years. I, I had been there and then I left there and went to Yale and started speaking at Yale and Duke and Wharton Business School in, at the University of Pennsylvania. So they wanna know, does hostage negotiators and business negotiators use the same techniques and what's it like to negotiate under pressure? And so, in my opinion, we do use the same techniques because people may say, okay, it's all about dollars and cents when you're in a business negotiation. I don't really believe that. I honestly believe that you have to build a rapport with that individual. You have to, you, I'm not saying that that person has to like you, you know, you're gonna be best, best friends and all that other stuff, but you have to have a foundation to work from. And if you respect me and I respect you, then this won't get outta hand. Right. You have numbers that you have to reach. I have numbers that I have to reach, but it, and, and people say, well, you, are you talking about a win-win? No. 'cause there's never a win-win in negotiations. There's never, somebody's gonna have to, you know, give up something. And, and so that's what they want to know. And, and I honestly tell them, if you use active listening skills and build a rapport, it will get you further.

Jerald Barnes [00:56:11] Because who knows, you may have to deal with these, this company or these people again, and further negotiations. And if you have that rapport and that foundation, it will make negotiations easier as time goes on. Just like it was with Wayne when he held Loretta. So, yeah, I mean, since he had a positive reaction with the prior negotiator, it made my job, even though it was longer, it made my job a lot easier.

Vance Crowe [00:56:38] Yeah. I one time had a problem with, with a neighbor in their dogs. And like I had pointed out, like, Hey, this situation with your dogs is not working for me. And they were like, you hate my dog. Like, that's, you know, and so I came up and just sat on the porch talking to them, petting their dog, and it made it a lot harder for them to assume that I hate their dog. Right. Right. And

Jerald Barnes [00:56:58] It

Vance Crowe [00:56:58] Also made it a lot harder for me to be like, you know, you're an irresponsible dog owner. You know, like, it just, everybody getting together, spending time with one another, it all of a sudden loosens that grip.

Jerald Barnes [00:57:09] Absolutely. That

Vance Crowe [00:57:09] People have mostly on their ego. Right? Yeah. Most of the time the things that we don't want to give up is 'cause we're like, I said that I wanted this and I'm gonna go get this, and I'm gonna be embarrassed in front of my friends if I don't get it, or

Jerald Barnes [00:57:20] Absolutely.

Vance Crowe [00:57:20] You know, my bookkeeper's gonna gimme a hard time if I don't do it right.

Jerald Barnes [00:57:22] Yeah. So you have to, like, in negotiations, you have to leave your ego at the door. You know, you, you, as soon as you walk into that, nah, your ego is nothing.

Vance Crowe [00:57:31] But that's tough because I think until you hit your thirties, or at least I, maybe I should just speak for myself, you don't even really understand that you have an ego. Right? True. You, you don't understand that there's like this voice inside of your head that's telling you you deserve more. Yeah.

Jerald Barnes [00:57:46] You

Vance Crowe [00:57:46] Deserve better. Right. Like, and until you can distinguish that voice from all the other voices, it's almost impossible to leave it at the door. But it is exactly what you have to do if you want to be able to get what you want.

Jerald Barnes [00:57:57] Absolutely. As a negotiator, like I said, on my way to the scenes, I've always practiced what my first opening line is gonna be. And then when I get there, I try to be as humble as possible because my ego is not gonna get me anywhere. It's, it's, it's, it's not, it's just, that's, that's just the way life is, right? So yeah. You have to leave it at the door.

Vance Crowe [00:58:20] So you did, you know, police work for a long time and there seems to be quite a bit of tension. It seems like a little bit lower than it was a few years ago, but a lot of tension between the public and police. You know, there's defund the police, there's like, you know, back the blue. Yeah.

Jerald Barnes [00:58:35] You

Vance Crowe [00:58:36] Know, how does this ever get resolved? Does it get resolved in our culture?

Jerald Barnes [00:58:40] I think it's gonna take a while. I really do. It's unfortunate that we have come to this point in our society where people don't like the police anymore. But then again, when you think about it, that we have to take some blame for that also. And the police department, we have to take some blame for that. We have not treated some of our citizens the way that we should have, and we have to take accountability for that. But also defunding the police is not gonna help the situation at all. We have crime. And unless we get together as a public, parents start controlling their own children. And because when you think about it, what's our job as law enforcement is to serve and protect and to keep the peace when you start trying to change what we do. To me, that's like trying to turn a cruise ship on the dime. It's gonna take a long time. Now you're asking the police to be social workers and all this other stuff, and, and that's not what we do. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:59:55] The, the selection for who are you bringing in? It would be different for who's gonna be a social worker and who's going to be carrying a gun and, and, you know, enforcing the law.

Jerald Barnes [01:00:05] Absolutely. And so I understand that they wanna bring social workers on to ride with the police, so that gives the police officer a bit added more responsibility. So now I, not only do I have to look out for myself and for the citizen, now I gotta look out for the social worker too. I gotta make sure that, and I have to follow all the rules. I worked in internal affairs with the police department for three and a half years before I got promoted to lieutenant as a sergeant. And it's hard enough following the rules and the regulations and the special orders and all that other stuff that we have within the police department. And lemme say this, that most of the police, police officers, they all try to do a good job because they, they want to have that reputation of being professionals. And I understand that. And then with every profession that we have, no matter what it is, your profession, my profession, other people's profession, you always have bad apples. You always, and I think what happens is sometimes we kind of focus on those bad apples instead of focusing on the positive changes that some of these police officers have made in the lives of citizens and, and try to focus on those and then weed the ones out that are bad apples. But to put everybody under that umbrella and then start talking about defunding the police and I, I don't understand. What do they think is gonna happen when you handcuff the police?

Vance Crowe [01:01:38] Yeah. I had a, for a very small amount of time in, in my twenties, I was living in Africa in a place where there was no police. And that's bad.

Jerald Barnes [01:01:46] Yes. Like,

Vance Crowe [01:01:48] In fact, I would, I can tell you right now, I would choose tyranny over complete anarchy.

Jerald Barnes [01:01:54] Yes.

Vance Crowe [01:01:54] And, and like that's, that's only because I have seen what happens when you have anarchy. And what you get out of that is mob justice, because people are not going to feel afraid. And then what they start doing is saying, Hey, let's get a group of people together. Let's figure out, let's scaring us. Let's go kill that. Right.

Jerald Barnes [01:02:10] But

Vance Crowe [01:02:10] It's never enough to satisfy the mob. Right. So then they go around and smash other things. So to me, this concept that you could take some of our roughest neighborhoods that are in the most dire need, pull the police outta there, you are going to create a storm that of course it could take you generations to try and recapture. Right. Probably will right now.

Jerald Barnes [01:02:28] Right, right. I mean, people, you know, you know, you hear the, the phrase Black Lives matter, and of course they matter. Also, all lives matter within this world that we live in. And to have that compound with defund the police is just, to me, is just, it doesn't make any sense. None of it makes any sense at all, is that we all have to live in this world together. Why not make it the best that we possibly can. Now does that mean that, you know, people have to monitor their own behavior? Yes. We have to be accountable for our behavior. You know, it's, it's funny because sometimes you get a call for a shooting or you arrest somebody or whatever the case may be. And the first thing the parents wanna say, not my son or not my daughter. They ain't do that. You set him up, you put a case on him, you did this, you did that. And it's like, no, we showed up after the scene after it happened. This is what the witnesses are telling us that you're little Johnny's done. You know, now I understand that you wanna protect him and, and all this. I understand that. I get that. But when are you gonna be accountable? When are you gonna be held accountable? Where were you? And I know, I shouldn't probably say this. Where were you when Johnny was, you know, 10 and 12 years old out at two and three o'clock in the morning?

Jerald Barnes [01:04:03] Where were you? Because now the police have to deal with him, and we only have one way of dealing with Right. Individuals. We incarcerate people.

Vance Crowe [01:04:14] Yeah. They're a hammer. Right, right. And they, everything is a nail, and that's what your choice is.

Jerald Barnes [01:04:18] Right. Right. So it's just, it just gets, it gets frustrating because it's like when I was a lieutenant driving around, or a sergeant on a patrolman, I mean, I was frustrated to see these young kids out late at night. I don't know about you, but when I was growing up in the city of Chicago, there used to be a commercial. Come on every night, 10 o'clock, it's 10 o'clock. Do

Vance Crowe [01:04:39] You know where your kids are?

Jerald Barnes [01:04:40] You know where your kids are. Right. And I had a curfew. My curfew was, I had to be home, not coming home, but be home when the streetlights came on. That was, that was when, when I started seeing those flickers streetlights start to flicker, I'm running home because I knew what my parents expected of me. And I knew that if I didn't get home, I was gonna be in trouble. And I think that we kinda lost that, that parenting aspect. Like I said, I grew up in the, on the south side of the city of Chicago with both my parents, and they taught me a lot. You know, my mother taught me that I'm no different than anybody else. And don't try to hold yourself higher than anybody else. That the most important thing is that you're humble and you try to help somebody. And that's all I've tried to do throughout pretty much my whole life. I, like I said, I was fortunate enough, I was a police officer graduating from the police academy. After a couple years, I worked in a narcotic task force. After that, I became, I, I worked in personnel and then I became the aide to one of the deputy chiefs. And so I had a nine to five job. And then, like I said, prior to that I was a, a negotiator. But then after that, I became the aide to the chief of police. And so I just had a great job. Ron Henderson, who was the chief of police at the time, and the deputy chief, he just mentored to me.

Jerald Barnes [01:06:15] Colonel Everett page was my first captain. He just mentored to me. These guys were just, they made sure I knew how to deal with people and how to do police work. And I am very grateful and thankful that, you know, that they'd done that for me. And so my responsibility now as, as a negotiator, is to pass on all the information that I've learned through the FBI Academy through Harvey Schlosberg, to all the people that have come and touched my life as far as negotiation is to pass that on to some of the university and some of the students that I, that I'm in contact with.

Vance Crowe [01:06:56] You know, you mentioned before about like all the kids being out late at night and then little Johnny getting into trouble. The thing that frightens me in our culture is how many people we have incarcerated.

Jerald Barnes [01:07:08] Yes.

Vance Crowe [01:07:08] Like, it's millions of people. And the other day I was driving up to Iowa and you drive past a, you know, a medium security prison and you think, I can't see that, but there are thousands of people in that building. Their lives are just totally in stasis if they ever come out of it, or, you know, like, and it's, it's our whole country's full of millions of people in prison. Yeah.

Jerald Barnes [01:07:28] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:07:29] Is it that our laws are too strict? Is it that we have really bad people? What's going on?

Jerald Barnes [01:07:34] No, I don't think that we have really bad people. And, and when you look at the incarcerations statistics, most of 'em are African American males, and most of them deal with drugs. And now that we have loosened drugs, marijuana is now legal. And you know, we're not focusing on the people that have substance abuse problems. It's time to let those people go.

Vance Crowe [01:08:02] Hmm. It's

Jerald Barnes [01:08:02] Time to let them out. Because I have found out that just from these prisons, and, and you gotta re, you gotta remember that prisons is a business. You know, some of these pe some of their, some of these were private prisons where people were getting paid to have these prisons. So it's time, it is time to kind of, you know, let that go. And, because in some cases, some of these people are not being rehabilitated. And some of these cases, some, some of these people are beyond rehabilitation. And some of these cases, people need to be in prison and not let loose on society. And I get that, and I understand that. But there are some individuals that who do not need to be incarcerated, who need s some kind of mental, physical or drug rehab treatment. And until we focus on some of those things, we're gonna have the prison population. That's it.

Vance Crowe [01:08:59] Yeah. I heard a statistic over the weekend that 30% of kids in medium to low income families are raised single parent. And I think like it is, I have two little girls that are easy. Right. I mean, they're, they're, they're their own problem. Right. But like, like I cannot imagine not having a partner along the way to be like, you take 'em. No. Like, let's work on this together. You cook, I'll clean you, you stop them crying. I'll get dads ready.

Jerald Barnes [01:09:30] Yeah. It takes it, in my opinion, and I'm only speaking and, and when I talk about these things, I'm only speaking from my perspective that I was fortunate enough to have parents, my mother and my father. And even when they divorced, they, they remarried. They, both of 'em remarried. And then I had a stepfather and a stepmother, and they were all active in my life. And my, my mother and my father both passed away. And I still have my, my stepmother and my stepfather, and they are still active in my life. Oh, wow. I still talk to them. Yeah. I still talk to my dad instilled in me, you're, you have my name. I've done what I can in, in this name now. It's your turn. Don't disappoint me. And I tried, lemme tell you, I failed along the way. Like we all have. Yeah. We're only human. But that's one of the things I tried to pride myself on. And that's the same thing I tell my two boys who are now, you know, I believe, you know what? I believe that they're successful because God has blessed them. They have never been in trouble. Right. They have never gave me, given me one ounce of trouble at all. And they've always been good young men. And one is a high school basketball coach at Bayless, and the other one plays professional basketball in Germany. And to look at them, I know you have young kids, and I, I, I hear some of your stories that you were telling me, and I was like, yeah, man, I kind of miss those days, but not really.

Jerald Barnes [01:11:08] It's exhausting. Yeah. And they're more, they're more fun now. And now they, as young men are teaching me, like sometimes I'll get emotional. Okay, granted, I'm a negotiator. I'm supposed to remain calm at all times. But when dealing with my sons, like, I would say, well, why did I ask his, my, my oldest? Why did your brother do that? And, and then I start going un touch. And my and my son, my oldest would say, dad, that's, I didn't call for this. I think we got on the wrong foot. Hey, let's focus the conversation back on here. I'm thinking, Hey, that's,

Vance Crowe [01:11:41] I'm like, somebody's bottling behavior. Right,

Jerald Barnes [01:11:43] Right, right, right. I'm like, where did this come from? And I start chuckling and it throws me off. And we just kinda, you know, but like I said before, you know, you do have to have, I honestly believe having two parents in house, and even if the parents are divorced, the father still can play an active role in that kid's life. And I think that he should. So I get kinda angry sometimes when I see some of these women who are, you know, raising children on their own. It's frustrating. I mean, when I got a divorce, I had to pay child support, and I was active in my kids' life. I don't see any reason why, you know, these other men shouldn't be active in, in their, in their children's lives.

Vance Crowe [01:12:26] Absolutely. I mean, I, the the role that a mother plays and the role that a father plays are different roles. Yes. Like, at least in my family, like my wife is an amazing mother, but she will negotiate with those little terrorists in a way that I will not negotiate.

Jerald Barnes [01:12:42] Right. Absolutely. And

Vance Crowe [01:12:44] Like, those kids need that because Yes, the kids need boundaries and you need a one person that's a good cop and one person

Jerald Barnes [01:12:51] One's their best. A bad cop. That's

Vance Crowe [01:12:52] Right. And like, it's just the way that it is. And without it, you can't instill in them impulse control and delayed gratification and, you know, understanding your emotions. Yeah.

Jerald Barnes [01:13:03] And

Vance Crowe [01:13:03] So I look at these, these situations, I, I can't imagine how we will stop incarcerating as many people as we are, because I think that a lot of times the people that are being incarcerated need to be incarcerated. That we needed to fix that problem a long, long time ago.

Jerald Barnes [01:13:18] Yeah. But you, but that's true. But in certain aspects, when we, I don't know how familiar you're with St. Louis, but I, when I first came here, now I came from a segregated city in Chicago. All African Americans, I won't say all the majority of the African Americans lived on the south side of the city. And, and the other majority of of white Americans lived in, in, in the north and west part.

Vance Crowe [01:13:44] And the parts that were in the south, the Irish and the blacks were separated

Jerald Barnes [01:13:47] Separate. Right. Yeah, yeah, of course. And growing up as a little boy, I couldn't go to Comiskey Park. Now I couldn't, I, I could go watch the baseball game, but I had to be out of there after the game was over with. Now it, my mother tells me stories that my great-grandfather, Mo's Youngblood worked at the health club, Chicago Health Club. So one day when he had passed away, my mother started giving me his gloves. These gloves that he had. And, and, and, and, and they were sway gloves. They went great with a, with a wool coat that I was wearing. I mean, it was, they were, and so one day I, I taken off the glove and I see three digit numbers inside the gloves. And I was like, so I called my mom, I said, Hey, you know these gloves that, you know, grandpa Moses had, there's three digit numbers in there. She says, yeah, your grandfather used to run numbers for the mob. Like what? She said, yeah, he lived in Lake Point Towers. Now he was the only black man that I knew that had an apartment off of Lake Shore Drive. I was like, oh, no. You know? So I I, and so as time goes on, like I said, so, so I lived in a, in a area called Maple Park, and it was strictly all African American. It was the first African American community built on the south side of the, of the city of Chicago. I grew up there. And we all knew our neighbors. You know, I think we've lost that art.

Jerald Barnes [01:15:19] I knew every neighbor, every person on my block. Now, I don't think I can attest to that. I don't know everybody

Vance Crowe [01:15:28] On

Jerald Barnes [01:15:29] My block. I think that, you know, in some aspects we lost, we lost some of that. And until we decide to, you know, come together, this place is gonna be, it's gonna be hard. It's gonna be hard. We're gonna have crime. And until we decide that as, as people that we're gonna control our children, then we're gonna still have crime. And that's unfortunate.

Vance Crowe [01:15:56] You know, you, you mentioned the drug crimes and then also that you worked in narcotics. What do you know about drugs standing right on the outside of people that are engaged with them?

Jerald Barnes [01:16:08] Well, let me say this, that growing up in the city of Chicago, I was not a choir boy. I may have dabbled in the business, or, and I definitely been around it. So when I came here to St. Louis, you know, it was during the crack epidemic. People were smoking a lot of crack. And I see people, you know, who were crack heads that they called them. But these people had substance abuse problems. And the, the issue was that the only way that we were resolving this issue is by putting them in prison.

Vance Crowe [01:16:49] Hmm.

Jerald Barnes [01:16:50] And that wasn't the right thing to do at the time. These people needed help. But remember, the president declared a war on drugs. So the, and, and to tell you how weird this is, I could have a pound of powder cocaine and I can have a pound of crack cocaine. Who do you think is gonna get the most time in prison?

Vance Crowe [01:17:14] Yeah.

Jerald Barnes [01:17:15] The guy with the crack cocaine. But why, why? Because of cultural difference. Because this guy who normally, 'cause lemme say this, African Americans don't have planes. We don't have ships. We're not bringing this stuff into the country.

Vance Crowe [01:17:30] Right? Yeah. Right.

Jerald Barnes [01:17:31] We're not, we're not bringing this, this, it's being brought to our neighborhood. And some of these individuals who don't have jobs and don't have a place to live and know, have no future in mind. They can make quick money by selling drugs. And we were so focused on those people in the neighborhood that we're not focused on the individuals that's bringing the drugs into this country and distributing it to these poor neighborhoods. So we had selection, selective prosecution, I would say. So I believe if, if justice is supposed to be fair, this person who has the pound of crack cocaine and this person who has the powder of cocaine should get the same amount of time. If you're a dealer. Now, if you are a person who is hooked on drugs, then we need to find a facility for you to get you off of this stuff. Whatever drugs you're on, if it's heroin, you know, cocaine, opiates or whatever the case may be. As you can see now, we're starting to treat people now who have, who are on opiates as with hospital treatment. Right. We're trying to find treatment for them. Right. But there was, and we're still not really prosecuting those individual at a higher rate. Are those physicians who are out here giving these people

Vance Crowe [01:18:47] Opiates? Oh, yeah. Signing those

Jerald Barnes [01:18:48] Procedures, signing the scripts. Right. We have some doctors who are doing that. We have some law enforcement agencies that are prosecuting some of these individuals. But no,

Vance Crowe [01:18:58] So I don't, you know, I was born at the time when they started the war on drugs, so I don't remember the time before that. Was the prosecution of drugs just not as intense? Was it just not as big of prison sentences? What was the world like before the war on drugs?

Jerald Barnes [01:19:14] Well, before the war on drugs, it was just more of, it was nothing. I mean, yeah, you were locking people up for dime bags or whatever the case may be. But also the war before war on drugs, we were arresting people for possession of marijuana. Before the war on drugs, we was also arresting people for carrying concealed weapons. We don't do that anymore. You're allowed to carry a weapon. You know, so the laws have changed. So, but before that, before the war on drugs, it was a free for all. As you can see in some of these cities, that these people were living in some of the, what we call ghetto and depressed areas and all this other stuff. It was just drugs was running rapid, you know, that's why the president said we had to have a war on drugs because it was going crazy. I remember growing up in, in, in Chicago, you could go to on down Rush Street, which is a, was was a nightclub area, a really high rent district in Chicago. And there were people standing on the corners, you know, white males, white females selling drugs out in the open. There was not a big thing. There was nightclubs, people were partying, snorting cocaine and all this other stuff. It's not until we start, in my opinion, my humble opinion, we start focusing on African Americans that now it's a war on drugs.

Vance Crowe [01:20:37] Oh, wow.

Jerald Barnes [01:20:38] I, that's, that's just my opinion. It may not be true, but it just seems like once the crack cocaine became epidemic and people were starting to really die and get killed over these drugs Yeah. And mass shootings and all this other stuff. Okay. Now we have a war on drugs.

Vance Crowe [01:20:57] So I know you're not in the business like in, in the policing business, but you probably have some kind of a read on it. I remember in the maybe mid two thousands when everybody thought that meth was going to just totally annihilate the world. And I remember coming back to my hometown and seeing kids that, you know, I went to school with that didn't have front teeth anymore. Yeah. So

Jerald Barnes [01:21:19] It

Vance Crowe [01:21:19] Got a few of 'em, but it also didn't, you know, subsume us like a zombie apocalypse. Now I hear people talking about fentanyl, and that's everywhere. And we gotta stop fentanyl and da da. Sometimes I wonder, is this hype to make it so politicians can implement, you know, laws to lock everybody up?

Jerald Barnes [01:21:37] Or

Vance Crowe [01:21:37] Is it actually an epidemic? Is this really a genuine problem?

Jerald Barnes [01:21:42] I think it's, I think it's really a genuine problem. You have it coming over the border, you know, and, and most of the times people may be getting fentanyl, but they don't know how much fentanyl they're getting. So, you know, it's illegal to, you know, to, to, to, to take these drugs. And if it's illegal, then let's put a stop to it. And the only way we're gonna put a stop to it, if we get, you know, we se I know people don't want to hear this, but we do have to secure the border.

Vance Crowe [01:22:10] Hmm.

Jerald Barnes [01:22:10] We do have to do that. That's the only way we're gonna stop the drugs from coming into this country. I

Vance Crowe [01:22:15] Can't imagine a rational argument that would say, we don't need to secure the border. Right. Right. Like, between the people that are coming in, like the unmarried males, like just now, they're in here. They don't, they're not allowed to work legally. What are they gonna do that's not gonna be good. Right.

Jerald Barnes [01:22:28] The

Vance Crowe [01:22:28] Amount of drugs that come through, like there's no, this is not a good situation. And it appears to me that we're being invaded is such a loaded word, but that's kind of what it feels like.

Jerald Barnes [01:22:38] Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's unfortunate that it does feel that way because that's the way it is actually. It is. I mean, we have people coming over this border and we need to do something to stop that. I don't see any reason why you can't come into this country legally. Right. I, I just don't, I and I understand that you're fleeing from something else. I get that. And I know that we don't have the manpower to handle all those people that are at the influx that are coming in. But we gotta try. I mean, we, we, you know, our our infighting with politicians is either you're a Republican or you're a Democrat. What happened to we, the people, you know, that's, that's, that's, you are supposed to be fighting for us, for for me, not for your party. You are supposed to be fighting for me.

Vance Crowe [01:23:31] Yeah. I sense that the politicians themselves don't view themselves as Republicans and Democrats. They view themselves as on the inside team. And the people are like, ah, I'm fighting for Republicans, I'm fighting for Democrats. But that the reality is it's a uniparty at the top. Yeah.

Jerald Barnes [01:23:47] And

Vance Crowe [01:23:47] The, and the divisions among the people are what allow them to keep their power. Yeah. 'cause it stops people from looking at like, what are they doing or not doing?

Jerald Barnes [01:23:54] Right. Right. I mean, as a politician, you're supposed to be there for your constituents, not for the elite, you know, because can I go to Anne Wagner and say, Hey, can I meet with you now? Unless I got a couple of hundred thousand dollars I wanna donate to her campaign? I can tell you that much. I, I can guarantee you that the people who have access to these politicians are the people who are spending the money Mm.

Vance Crowe [01:24:20] On

Jerald Barnes [01:24:20] Their campaigns. And in my opinion is that they don't really need you. The people who have the money, they don't really need, they just wanna have access. The people who actually need you are the people who don't have the money. Right?

Vance Crowe [01:24:34] Yeah.

Jerald Barnes [01:24:34] They're looking for you to help them. That's the reason why they voted for you, because they want the help. And if you're not listening to, remember we talked about active listening skills and all that other, you're not listening to these people. So what do you think is gonna happen? It's gonna be an uprise because they're frustrated, they're angry, you know, they're in despair, you know, eventually these people are gonna say, I've had enough.

Vance Crowe [01:24:58] Yeah. The only thing you can do if you don't have money is organize. And that organization has to be systemic. That I, I do a lot of time in the ag world and the ag world, you know, they're less than 2% of the population, but they wield enormous political power Of

Jerald Barnes [01:25:13] Course. And

Vance Crowe [01:25:14] Part of that is because they're landowners and they have money. But another big part of it is from high school on you have the future farmers of America,

Jerald Barnes [01:25:22] Then

Vance Crowe [01:25:22] You've got these farm bureau groups within the farm bureau groups. You have young farmers and ranchers. They have a system that is teaching people. How does the political system work? How do we come to agreement? How do we organize ourselves? How do we work as a body? And like the farmers, the reason they have the clout that they do in the United States is not part of, it's because of money, but a big part of it is because of massive levels of organization. Yeah,

Jerald Barnes [01:25:46] Yeah. Plus they control our food.

Vance Crowe [01:25:48] Yeah.

Jerald Barnes [01:25:48] So why, so, I mean, well,

Vance Crowe [01:25:49] They don't feel that way, right? They feel like I send, I, I produce all this food. Yeah.

Jerald Barnes [01:25:53] And the,

Vance Crowe [01:25:53] It's the manufacturers and the retailers that make all the money.

Jerald Barnes [01:25:56] And that's unfortunate. That's, that's really unfortunate. Because, you know, when you think about it, you can eat naturally from the farmers, right? I mean, they produce enough to feed this country. Right. I I'm sure they do. We don't need outside sources, in my opinion, to, to feed us. I don't think, in my opinion, this country is rich enough, this country that we shouldn't have any homeless unless you wanna be homeless, anybody that goes hungry, unless you want to go hungry. But it just seems like, like it's, I I read an article where the United States government is paying farmers not to plant certain items.

Vance Crowe [01:26:42] Oh man, we, we could go down a rabbit hole here that would take months to get through. I mean the, the, I will say this about the farmers, right? They have set up a system where they get to grow things and run the system advantageously. Okay? So what I mean by that is like, they created a law in the state of Illinois that you have to blend ethanol into gasoline, which means you have to grow corn and then process it, and then blend it into gasoline. And nobody in the state of Illinois has a choice whether or not they want ethanol in their gasoline or not. You have to do it. So what that means is there's always gonna be X amount of demand for corn. So they're gonna, it's way more profitable or to, to grow corn consistently

Jerald Barnes [01:27:22] Than

Vance Crowe [01:27:22] It is to grow other crops. And this, this just goes, the, the whole system is set up with these things like this. And, you know, I, I'm on the periphery of ag,

Jerald Barnes [01:27:33] So

Vance Crowe [01:27:33] Part of me is like, I can point out some of these things that are keeping the system from free flowing,

Jerald Barnes [01:27:38] But

Vance Crowe [01:27:38] Then you also have to give 'em credit. It's a really small number of people. Yeah. That got really powerful because they got organized. Right.

Jerald Barnes [01:27:44] And,

Vance Crowe [01:27:44] And you think about these other communities that are fractured and don't have support. It's like they should take a page out of the farm system, but the farm system, they're just using a system they built back in the 18 hundreds and they've just carried it forward all these

Jerald Barnes [01:27:57] Years. Wow. I didn't know that. Wow. Yeah. But I, I don't know. I just think that, you know, with, with the, the way that police work is going now is that we have a long way to go, to turn this, to turn this thing around. And the fact that some people don't have any confidence in the mayor or, you know, or the police chief. 'cause you know, he's an outsider. He, he's not from St. Louis, but I, I always give him a chance. Yeah. Let let you know what's it gonna hurt. You know, give the guy a chance. Let him see, let's see what he can do. He may be able to turn this, you know, the police department around, you know, I, I say give the mayor a chance. Give, let her, let her, give her the tools that she needs. But then again, she's on that bandwagon of defunding the police also. And that, that concerns me when you have the top person in the city, you know, hitting the police department's budget.

Vance Crowe [01:28:51] Yeah. It always seems like the people that are defunding the police, they already either have their own security or they live in a neighborhood where they can't imagine that things could go so wrong. Right. It seems like,

Jerald Barnes [01:29:02] Yeah, I mean, the mayor has her bodyguards around her and, and Cory Bush has her bodyguards around her. And you know, I I I, I heard congressperson Bush say that she's getting death threats. And I'm, and I said, okay, well there's gotta be some police reports out there. There's gotta be some investigations going on. I, I haven't seen anybody arrested yet for Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:29:25] Making

Jerald Barnes [01:29:25] Threats. I mean, let's, you know, let's, let's get it out there because I mean, you got, you know, you got your security, but what about the people who don't have their security? That's

Vance Crowe [01:29:36] Right. What

Jerald Barnes [01:29:37] About these people?

Vance Crowe [01:29:37] The people that need it?

Jerald Barnes [01:29:38] Right. And the people that are living in these neighborhoods where the violence is, I mean, you have a lot of old people, people who are elderly, who are living in these neighborhoods and they can't come out. They have to come out early in the morning just to get out to go do something. And then by noon or one o'clock they're locked in their homes because they can't come out because the guys are out there gang banging or, you know, selling dope or, you know, out there robbing people or whatever the case may be. You know, you can't even come outside. And that's, that to me is a shame that those things should not happen. But they do.

Vance Crowe [01:30:14] Well, this has been a fantastic conversation. If people heard this and they wanna bring you out to hear you talk about negotiations, where, where would you direct them to go?

Jerald Barnes [01:30:22] They can go to, well, my website is down for some reason. I'm trying to figure out what happened to it. But they can email me at negoti at negotiator2864@sbcglobal.net, and you can reach me there and just, you know, we can negotiate what the speaking fees are because there are fees, you know, that, that I charge for coming out to different universities and stuff like that. But I enjoy this, I enjoy speaking to people about negotiations. I, I, I want to tell everyone that you can be a negotiator. It's, it's not, it's not hard. You just have to practice that. And you have to be true to the principles of what negotiations is. You have to humble yourself. You have to do your homework, you have to show empathy. These are the things. And you have to, you know, ask open-ended questions and, you know, use all the active listening skills. But you can do it. And it would deescalate a situation.

Vance Crowe [01:31:24] Any situation.

Jerald Barnes [01:31:24] Any situation. It does, it does it works. I know when I saw it happened on Anthony Danelli, who was a trained hostage negotiator, the, the techniques that Bob Hog used during negotiations on Anthony Dannel when I, and I wasn't even a negotiator at the time, but it just hit me later that, you know, wow, if it works on him, how do I think it's gonna work on somebody who's not even trained? You know? And like I said, I use it almost daily on my friends, you know, they be keeping secrets sometimes. And I have to use my, you know, open-ended questions to find out what's going on. But my, all my friends say I'm, I'm pretty laid back anyway, so nothing really excites me.

Vance Crowe [01:32:05] Well, this has been a fantastic thank you conversation. Thanks for coming on.

Jerald Barnes [01:32:08] I appreciate it. Thank you.