Faith, AI, and Modern Life: A Conversation with Monsignor Shamleffer

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:00:00] If AI is the final goal, we're missing the point. The final goal has to be humanity. AI has to be a, a help to humanity, not a replacement of humanity.

Vance Crowe [00:00:13] Welcome to the podcast. I'm glad you're here today. I have a man named Monsignor Shamleffer. Monsignor actually baptized my son and for the last two years I've been attending Mass at his local church. And we've gotten to know each other. We've gotten to chat after mass, after different family celebrations. And I asked him a little while ago if he had come on the podcast. He said, sure. And then I have to admit, I was a little intimidated to invite him on. I know that he was a part of the St. Louis Archdiocese responding to the sexual abuse scandal. And I knew that might come up and I thought that might be a tough subject. But even more than that, I didn't just want to talk to him about this big part of his life and his work for the diocese. And instead, I wanted to have a conversation about just kind of being Catholic, what the traditions are about. What I found is a man that has been deeply involved in his community and has some thoughts about the differences between groups and how they approach coming to church and the sort of church that he puts together. So this is not a wild Off the Chain podcast, and you'll notice there's probably some areas that we could have gone deeper in, but I feel like this may be the first of many times I'll interview Monsignor because he's really interesting guy and I like being around him. So I hope you enjoy this podcast with Monsignor Shamleffer. How is the church different from when you were a kid growing up to today?

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:01:43] Well, I grew up in the sixties and seventies, so it was, communication's been a big change. And I think I, when I, I graduated in 80 and that's when cable TV came to St. Louis before that, didn't watch a whole lot of tv. There wasn't that much on, we played more the church was kind of the, the boomer years. It was grade schools were filled. There was a lot of nuns. There was, I think it became, at least in the St. Louis area, the area is is about a quarter, 25% are Catholic. In the county, it's probably about 35% are Catholic. So there's a certain amount of familiarity and, and safety. The St. Louis is unique and it had about 28 Catholic high schools and a lot of people went to Catholic instead of the public schools. Now that's, some of that's changed as they've become blessed, affordable for people and populations have gone down birth rates, but it was a kind of an innocent time, a joyful time. You didn't ha you weren't hit every day with media or information, or you didn't hear about a lot of the ugliness that sometimes some kids hear too young, I think, to be able to decipher that.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:03:20] But, you know, I still have friends from grade school, I have friends from high school friends that I grew up with, so that we s accept a certain community.

Vance Crowe [00:03:31] There's something I would, on my drive in this morning, I was thinking about like, when you grow up and you take a career, your career evolves with the, with the changing of the world, with the change of fashion and commerce and you know, what do you wear to work and how do you, but with the priesthood, it, if it changes, it changes much, much slower. And the world could change very quickly around it. And yet you signed up to be a priest, you know, 18, 20, 22. Right. And how much the world has changed. And yet your calling is somehow the same. It's just, it's, it's a different interaction with the world than a careerist would've, I think.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:04:14] Well, I think we're what a priest does structurally, nuts and bolts wise, you're right. Doesn't, hasn't changed that much, but certainly the environment you're in is changing. So you have to change with, I mean, you have to be aware that I have to become more media savvy. I think part of my role, it was when I was in the diocese sometimes when I ran the legal affairs, which you had mentioned when the abuse scandals happened, sometimes, how do we be honest, tell the story, but also put things in perspective. And so that was a, a difficult period changed my life. I know in, in the sense that when I was younger, I used to coach some teams. I would drive kids home. I would never think of doing that today, just, but it would. So that's been a sadness for, for me, losing some of that. But at the same time, I've, I think all you can do for the Diocese of priesthood is to to be a faithful person. And, and that's the way to address unfaithfulness, which happened in some of the abuse cases. You could go through the reasons why and how and what was going on.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:05:50] But the end result was that many people got were hurt and it was, it was wrong. And the church has addressed it. We tried to do that. So part of my role in was to review some of those cases and, and yeah, so it's to try to help people. You don't, you couldn't always air as people left feeling heard, some felt left feeling angry. But

Vance Crowe [00:06:24] What, what was that when you were, you were a regular diocesan priest for a certain amount of time.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:06:30] Yeah, I had gotten my degree in, in church law, so I had some legal background in some of that. So that's what I was doing. That's the reason I got involved in this. But, and then we had some civil lawyers and so you, how do you make it not just a, a legal thing there being, but at the same time, my goal, I think the goal was how do you bring, start doing some healing for people? How do you honestly deal with that? Talk about the warts along with the, the, the good and, and again, I think the only solution that I have and I've talked is like all of us to make sure you get, you get a healthy environment style and to be faithful to do it. So that's been almost 20 years ago now. Some of when, when it came out,

Vance Crowe [00:07:28] How long was that your role for?

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:07:32] This happened about 2002 15 years.

Vance Crowe [00:07:40] Wow.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:07:41] About 2002 to 17.

Vance Crowe [00:07:46] When you were first tapped to do this work, how, how are you just like, okay, I'll go wherever I'm

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:07:54] Yeah, there was the diocese that formed a committee and because of the role that I had for the diocese at that time and the canonical affairs, I think I got tapped to be on that. There was other people, there was teachers, there was lay people, there was some psychologists, counselors, a variety of different people from different backgrounds were all wanting in the end to do the good thing to really to to care for people. This, if we could,

Vance Crowe [00:08:25] Yeah, anytime there's been a scandal, there's that very difficult challenge with wanting to be able to talk and hear people and listen to them. And some people having deep pain and suffering from it. But then also knowing we have to move forward in some way. And so how you bridge that divide is incredibly complicated because every single individual's experience of it is their individual experience.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:08:58] Exactly. So you had to try to honor each person that came in and try to give 'em the dignity. Some of that had been lost through that abuse and how do you rebuild human care and dignity And it's, it's, it's, and any kind of trust, I think there was a lack of trust sometimes in the days.

Vance Crowe [00:09:19] Yeah. You know, just the other day I had a guy named Mark Reardon who's like a radio show host and he is not Catholic yet, not a practicing Catholic, but he brought up outta nowhere.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:09:29] He,

Vance Crowe [00:09:29] He's upset. That's something that's kept him away from religion on the whole, about the Catholic abuse scandal. So it had this cultural impact on people that were far away from it. And it's, it's just an interesting thing to think about. 'cause how could you go repair a relationship with a person that's not Catholic and not religious and yet still feels strongly about it? Like it's a very complicated situation.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:09:58] Yeah. 'cause you probably don't have a great opportunity to have meaningful conversations with somebody like that. 'cause they're not in the same realm you're in Again, I think you can sit the diocese and the priesthood and the whole Catholic church can say they're gonna do that, but then they have to do it. And then, and I think they've been doing it, the, the, the number of cases is hardly any since in the last 25 years. Now, there most took place earlier and, but it doesn't, the church has to be, it, it is vigilant against that.

Vance Crowe [00:10:36] Yeah. And I think it's, it's, you know, we are a consequence of the scar tissue that's built up. Right. And we build up scar tissue. And so as the, the abuse scandal made it so priests like you couldn't be a coach and drive kids home. Right. That only further pulls people apart. They don't have the same sort of warm relationships that they used to do you perceive that one day that will come back? I mean, the church's history is thousands of years old.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:11:09] Yeah. I mean, you, you could do it, it, it, it just has, it's gonna be in a different way. I think I try to, before school begins when the schools to greet the kids when they come in. But it's, I mean, it's a very public, I'm out in the open and I get over there to teach some of the classes, but, and I'm friends with a number of these kids that I coach in the back. I've done a lot of their weddings and, but so yeah, it, some of that is lost. I, again, I think all I, I am conscious of when I'm putting myself in situations, but I think our whole society is that way more than it used to be. Even men that coach teams, they shouldn't, they don't drive girls home by themselves and even fathers and that they have somebody there. So it's just where we are as a society. When I was a kid, you never thought about those things. And so it's, yeah, that's, that's been painful for a lot. The priest's been painful for a, a lot of people that have been hurt and as you said, Mr. Rear, and it was for him, it's been some blockage there is where we just, I think you just hope somebody's able to, to reach out and to give a good example.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:12:45] And so I think the church is making just much effort into doing that.

Vance Crowe [00:12:54] Before we started the conversation, you and I were talking about demographics and I wanted to roll something past you to see if it resonates with you. I believe

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:13:03] That

Vance Crowe [00:13:03] The Catholic church is on par for a major revival. I, I sense there are a lot of young people that are looking around and being like, Hey, I tried the, there are no rules or we're gonna just be good by doing our own thing and I'm spiritual but not religious.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:13:23] And

Vance Crowe [00:13:23] Then they came to realize like, there's just too much in this world for me to try and understand on my own. So I sense in the people that I run around with and what I'm watching to see a big revival in the Catholic church. Are you hearing the same thing? What, what do you

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:13:38] Well, this, yeah, I mean definitely this year, just thinking the year before we had about 900 young men and women joined the church. This year we had 18 doubled. And I agree across the nation, it's the same statistics. There's been, there was way more people looking for, as you said, something solid and grab onto a place of community, a place of, of dignity and worship. I think they, the Catholic church can, does worship well and, and community. And so there is people looking for that. And, and I think it's also just the, the teaching the church has been consistent is authentic. The church is made up of us men and women. It's not just the the buildings, but, but we, I think we make it attractive. But I agree that definitely people have, especially even the last few years, it's, it's really been blossoming. I know like at the cath I talked, which doesn't have a school but is a, like in the center West end area. Like they had 70 people join the church there say generally when smaller, we had like 13.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:15:11] But, and that, and they become a little community that people come to classes and support each other.

Vance Crowe [00:15:20] So my mother was fond of saying, you know, I like, I'm a cradle Catholic. We're many, many generations Catholic. I even had a, a great uncle that was a priest. She used to always say the new converts are always the most conservative Catholics. You don't agree.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:15:37] I dunno about the, I mean I, I've never really thought in those terms. I think some of them are very fervent,

Vance Crowe [00:15:42] Fervent. I, I dunno if I'd call

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:15:44] Them conservative or liberal. I think they run both gamuts. But

Vance Crowe [00:15:48] Bourbon, I, I guess that's what she's describing is like they become the, the, the nuances of all the traditions that cradle Catholics are just kinda like, I, this is just what we do. And the new people, they come in and they're like, Hey, this is why we wear a veil in the church. Right. The right i that part and the, the, the people that have been doing it their whole times, they're like, I didn't, I didn't even know you could veil in church. I dunno.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:16:16] Yeah, I get that. You're right. Some of those things, but they, they, they're on fire.

Vance Crowe [00:16:22] Yeah.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:16:23] And, and that's exciting to see. You're, I don't know, we have our school mass with our kids and certain songs, they get in fire and they, we have hand gestures and moving around and, and they just love that. They like to have expressions of, of faith. And what

Vance Crowe [00:16:45] I think is so interesting about the Catholic faith is that everything within it, every single thing they do is like, has a literal meaning. Has a symbolic meaning. And that symbolic meaning is usually deeply historical. And so anything you touch, you could go miles deep into what does this mean and where did it come from? And I don't think, you know, the Protestant faith, they don't have that in the same way.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:17:14] So the Catholic faith at the beginning is, is judo, Jewish Christians faith. So some of our ritual has come out of some Jewish ritual and prayers and the, the focus has moved from the old covenant between Abraham and the Lord and Moses to the new covenant with Jesus Christ. And he becomes the focal point. And that's what we, but we have, as you said, that that background history, we have those influences of our, our Jewish brothers and sisters and of others. And, and so that's important to honor those. A lot of Catholic might not know all that history and might not know all the reasonings, but as you said, somebody's entered the church might have done some of that studying and has more realization.

Vance Crowe [00:18:16] Yeah, I was very fortunate in high school I belonged to a program called Tech Teens Encounter Christ, which is similar to eo. I think you and I have talked about this, but it was like a, a way for a young Catholic kids teens to like be exposed to the Catholic faith at a deeper level. Not just, Hey, I'm going to church every Sunday, but like, what does it mean? And we had

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:18:37] Two

Vance Crowe [00:18:38] Amazing priests that ran that program.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:18:40] And

Vance Crowe [00:18:41] What they did was they'd be like, Hey, when

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:18:43] The

Vance Crowe [00:18:43] Bell rings, that is the exact moment of the consecration when they say, this is my body. So for a guy like me where everything stories pervade everything, it was profound. And then when I go to another person's service, like a Protestant service, I'm always like, that's not how we do it. This is, we're all gonna get in trouble here. You do it this way. And it, it's like the stories within everything are of endless fascination to me. There is so much to learn that you would think you, you couldn't imagine how much there is to learn if somebody didn't point it out to you.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:19:19] Yeah, our church, our faith is totally your relationship faith, it's a relationship isn't about some theological precepts, but it's a person, Jesus Christ, that's who we're called to have that relationship with. So you talk about stories and your background, you think of all those people that you've had relationships, all those that have helped to form who you are, Vance. And then we see that as Christians, how do we been formed by our God? How do we then share that with others? So there it's, it's, it's not just me and God, but it's how are we as a community of believers, you have young children. How do you pass that on to this appropriate level for them? How do you, someone's gonna be your actions. Someone's gonna be your words. Children, especially I look at parents, that's why I said one of my goals this year was to help our school parents to bring Christ to them because they have a bigger influence on their kids than I can. And they're around them. And so how do I support parents? How do I remind them of also, I think they have an obligation and, and to take it seriously, but I don't wanna just leave them alone. I wanna support and help them in that endeavor.

Vance Crowe [00:20:51] How quiet should kids be in church?

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:20:56] I have never had, I've had to stop May because of kids being noisy, they can be as noisy. I mean, they have to be, if they're screaming at the top of their lungs, most parents wanna get 'em up and moving. But I, I, that's not a, I think they, that's usually joyful sounds

Vance Crowe [00:21:16] That's a good way to look at it.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:21:18] Yeah, they're, but the parents can help a little. So they, I I mean it's tough. I mean, make it age appropriate attention.

Vance Crowe [00:21:33] Yeah. My general belief is like you're, I don't know, stern maybe isn't the right word, but you're focusing your children on the on, on, hey, be quiet because you have to be moving them down the path towards it because they get to a certain age and it's no longer cute or joyful. No, it's just disruptive. But those years where you have a 2-year-old that hasn't quite reached the age of reason and you're like, you're just like, I don't wanna be that embarrassing parent.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:22:00] I and and al almost 99% of the parishioners are fine with it. You know, every once in a while you made a grump. But the, I think the other people are happy to hear it. I mean, if it comes so disruptive, they're probably, but most parents I think kind of have that common sense to know when to do that. If someone gets outta sorts for a little while, just get 'em back. What do you think you'll tell your kids about the experience? Oh, I'm gonna thank 'em a lot. I realize this is more for them and their kids and their kids than it is us, the grandkids. Right. Don't know these stories. I can't wait to, for us all to get together and see it. This went better than I thought it was gonna time does go fast. So it's, what time is it? It's almost three o'clock. No way. Yes. God, you talked so much. I know

Vance Crowe [00:22:56] There's something, you know, we were talking before about the hierarchy of the church. You know, I've, I've been interviewing Protestants over the last few years, not just in Legacy Interviews, but on the podcast. And so Amish people, for example, when they have a service, each member of the church, each one of, I think it's just the men, but maybe the men and the women, they take a Sunday and then they're the one in charge of which readings are we doing and how do we interpret that? And I think the Presbyterians do a lot of this, the Mormons, you know, each person takes a week. This is like so different for Catholics that it's hard to even like understand like, how could you do that?

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:23:42] Yeah. It's, it's a whole different structure in the Catholic church, even in the beginning from the apostolic times, there was religious leaders, community leaders. And that didn't mean that others aren't essential. Everybody's essential to church. Whether you're the actually one leading the prayer, but your prayer, your faith, your participation, your singing, none of us can do it alone. We need everybody to have good worship. And so whether you're the active leader or not, you're still an essential ingredient. The, but the Catholic church is a, it is a hierarchical church where there is the pope down to the, the bishops and they, those are the successors to Peter where Jesus told Peter that he was to lead the church. And it's, that's what they call about. The apostolic subsections come down for the last 2000 years. Then local churches, one bishop couldn't take care of everybody. That's when they started having the word year presbyters or priests to lead the, the smaller communities, which we call parishes, which most people where that's what their experience of church is, more parishes than it is the, the universal. It's there, you know, your neighbors, you your friends, you go to school, we got Catholic churches, had ball teams, different organizations to bring community together.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:25:28] Now that we're in a little more mobile society, people move around more. And so we don't, some people don't always have that sense of community because that's not where they grew up or they don't have lifelong friends or they don't have relatives. So that's where the church has to make hats to change, to make efforts to help build community.

Vance Crowe [00:25:56] Yeah. You know, so in doing these Legacy Interviews,

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:25:59] If,

Vance Crowe [00:25:59] If I interview somebody that was Catholic, a young man that was Catholic, I asked him, which of the sports teams did you play on? Because they played on when basketball, baseball, soccer in some places. And it got me thinking that actually I think the youth sports culture was largely influenced by maybe not just Catholic, but Catholic parish teams starting out in these younger leagues and then moving up.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:26:25] But

Vance Crowe [00:26:26] As it's changed over to being way more commercial, right, where you have these ball fields out in Chesterfield and they're

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:26:32] A

Vance Crowe [00:26:32] Part of a club team that's pulled

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:26:34] Away from Jersey, Jersey business,

Vance Crowe [00:26:35] It's become a business, right? It is very different as far as community shaping, right?

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:26:41] Because

Vance Crowe [00:26:42] It used to be that if you were on a baseball team, this was building comradery between the kids and the parents. And they'd see each other at church and then they'd be around and now that's stripped out of the sports and it's a very different thing.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:26:56] That is true. And, and then that's caused some kind of, because 'cause that's, I think some of our kids or parents get overscheduled and a lot of these don't honor the Sunday worship. A lot of them, they have games a Sunday morning, they have practices. They a lot of, they have a lot of travel. When you get a certain age or out of town, I had a mother complaining, hey, that their daughter was off on a, on Easter Sunday at some place having some tournament. And that's what she said to just ruined her Easter.

Vance Crowe [00:27:31] Yeah, it would.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:27:32] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:27:33] I So what is the Catholic teaching on what, what are the requirements of keeping holy the Sabbath? Are you

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:27:42] Yeah, I mean it goes from the, the commandments, the, the first three of the 10 commandments are our relationship with God. And one of them is keeping holy abbot. The other seven are our relationships with each other. But how do we honor that for the Catholic church? They codify that or made it saying it's attending mass on Sundays and the the few holy days of obligation we have that. And you don't easily dismiss yourself from that if you really can't make it or if there's illness. You, you, you use common sense and that you can't make it. But just, I said, I remembered you that day we had a snowstorm and I saw you and, and your kids all bundled up and walked up and, and other people didn't make it because of the snow. But

Vance Crowe [00:28:38] I guess for me, one of the things I instituted, and this is you know, caused a little conflict at first, is you're like, I've, we started doing Sunday is only family day. We can go see cousins, we can go see grandma and granddad, we'll do family dinner, but like we don't go to birthday parties or, or other things like that. And it's caused some problems. But on the whole is created one day out of the whole week where I do not have to have my attention divided, which is what I spend most of my life doing. I'm doing one thing for real quick and then I'm switching over here to doing something else. But that is not a requirement of the Catholic church then hey, you could go to mass and also go to your game if, if there was a game on the same day.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:29:22] Yeah. We don't schedule games until after masses are over. But some select teams have them. A lot of these kids now feel they have to do select if they wanna go on or

Vance Crowe [00:29:33] Yeah, I think that, I think the child sports industrial complex is not good for society because I think ultimately it plays off of the dreams of, of kids and it sucks away so much of what I believe should be unstructured time. And it puts it all into hyper structured time for a sport they may or may not wanna play 10 years from now.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:29:56] Yeah. And they, and and that's one of the areas of our society I think that has to be monitored. And I think parents have to do this sometimes they can say, no, we're doing, that's too much. We need time as a family. We need it. As you said, you're trying to use Sundays to do that. Well,

Vance Crowe [00:30:20] And if you don't assert it, it won't happen. There's no chance that you'll accidentally

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:30:25] No

Vance Crowe [00:30:26] Keep, you know, a full day for your family. That's right.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:30:29] So it's, yeah, that's, but there was games, there's yesterday in the ball fields in the afternoon. I, when I came by it was about two o'clock.

Vance Crowe [00:30:43] Yeah. I I mean even that, like, I'm way more attuned to, if it's part of your parish and you're gonna see a bunch of people from, I mean, yeah, that makes total sense to me.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:30:53] The, but the Catholic church I think has the same foundation has been there and that's said Jesus Christ, how we've expressed that people are educated, they would, I think the church sometimes it was more, you just follow the, the teaching, the priest who educated. But now everybody tends to be educated at least than our area. And so I think you gotta be helping people. How do they, as you said, how does your faith help influence the rest of their life? How do we support them in that? You're trying to do that with your family. How's that? The workplace, how's the school, how's, so that's again, my quest this year is to help parents to be that kind of a leader for their own family faith leader.

Vance Crowe [00:31:59] Well, whatever you're doing, it's working on me. So I'm, I'm I'm out there. You know, a couple of weeks ago, a couple of my buddies and I were talking about confession. And so some of the people there are, you know, they grew up Catholic but not Catholic now. And we were just talking about it as you could talk about it as the spiritual part. Hey, this, I'm confessing this to the priest that is somehow being

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:32:21] Intercession

Vance Crowe [00:32:22] Between me and God. Or you can talk about the actual physical part of things where announcing your sins, calling them to mind and saying them out loud in and of itself helps one, you know, it, it forces you to take this nebulous, ah, maybe I shouldn't be doing these things

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:32:42] And

Vance Crowe [00:32:42] Put it into actual words. Yeah. What does this strike in your mind?

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:32:51] Every sacrament, which reconciliation is one of them, one of the healing ones is a graced encounter with God. So we get that special great grace is basically God in our lives. And I think as you said, how to move beyond just saying, well, I could have been a little better to actually taking accountability to what I've done and saying this is areas that maybe I've made poor choices or I've sinned or haven't done as well. And I'm willing to take ownership for those and asking for forgiveness and also looking for guidance to make those changes. I don't fall back in those same patterns. So you can, you can tell God easily, I'm sorry, but you missed that opportunity. I think to do what you said was to actually verbalize it, to take ownership to that. Even we find it embarrassing. The great problem we sometimes as humans is pride gets in the way we want to be a God. And instead of letting God be God, and, and the the remedy always for pride is humility. That we recognize I am human. I I don't have it all. And I come before that place that I believe has what I need and that's who our God is and fills up those areas that are lacking in my life.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:34:23] And you're married, you and your wife, neither you're male and female, you're different. You could look at things different, but your, your job is to, how do you enhance, lift each other up, support each other a and u help the coming together. Two of you is, has the better gifts than you do have separate. And so you're able to then support each other. I try to tell couples I marry I and invite them to try to find five or 10 minutes a week to pray together and talk about what's happened this week. What have been blessings, what have been struggles, listen to each other, ask God to guide you. And, and it brings a certain amount of intimacy. It moves beyond just casual things. But we do a little reflective thought, where have I been? Where do I want to go? And that's really your, your, I think part of your marriage journey is trying to do that with each other. So that's, that's same thing in our faith life. I said, where have we been? Where, and that's what reconciliation gives a chance to do. And we get graces.

Vance Crowe [00:35:46] It's such a a, the the pride part of that, this real like when, you know, you have to go sit down with another human being and another human being is hearing those words. So they must be spoken out loud. I think like when Protestants hear about Catholics going to a priest who have their sins forgiven, the functional part of speaking those things out loud is lost on them. I, I like or just doesn't, but, and I think even as a kid, if I went to confession, maybe you kind of felt that. But when you're an adult, when you're a a man that's in charge of all the other aspects of your life and you choose to humble yourself in this way, it's hard and it makes you much more deeply reflective on things like why I, I dunno.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:36:38] No, you're exactly true. I I mean that, that's the, the graces of that sacrament, but the opposite not to do it can leave us prideful, can lead us not being able to grow can block some of god's graces in our lives. So you gotta, the church takes it very, that's why that one of the, the seal of confession they talk about that a priest cannot divulge what was, what happened in a confessional more to bring that certainty that people can have that, that this is not going to be used in a detrimental way against somebody or gossip or, but it's trying to bring dignity to us as humans. That's why Christ forgave off. And we see this scriptures all the time and whenever he's forgiving anybody, he's not really going over and over about their sins. He's more celebrating their desire to be with him. And he, he certainly invites them to remove those sins. But we are his real focus. He made us to be with him. So he wants to take those those things away. And that's what that sacrament does.

Vance Crowe [00:38:01] There's something so important about those times in your life where you know, you did something wrong to ha like, the thing I think Catholics get that maybe other faiths don't, is if you are never allowed to say it out loud. Right. Maybe you've made peace with it with God, but there's something deeply human about saying something out loud and that it's not a secret in the same way. Right. It's not, it's, and I mean there could be shame associated with it, but it's possible to move past, to me that structural thing that a priest does for the parishioners by hearing confession is profound. And I mean deeply profound.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:38:44] So yeah, the, the priest isn't the one that forgives God, forgive the priest is the agent, he's the minister of that sacrament. So while he is saying the words and doing that, it's doing it. God is the, is the, is the source of that forgiveness in that, in that sacrament.

Vance Crowe [00:39:06] Do you remember the sins that people confess to you?

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:39:11] Not usually. I mean, I take very seriously you can, I mean one of the being a canonical, there's three times in the scriptures where they use the word, I mean in the code fuss and that's means totally repugnant. And one of that is to break the seal. So it'd be the English word nefarious would come from there.

Vance Crowe [00:39:38] Okay.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:39:39] And so one is like to attack the pope is a second one other was a, to say mass with only one species, only bread and no wine or something. Oh,

Vance Crowe [00:39:52] Is that right? That's considered nap Naples. Na ah, interesting. I didn't realize that.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:39:58] Yep.

Vance Crowe [00:39:58] But then why is it not required of the, all the parishioners to take both the host and the wine?

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:40:05] Because the church just, I mean, I believe that the crisis is totally present in neither one. So for a long time they didn't use the cup. And I don't, it wasn't until 77 that it came back in the end. But

Vance Crowe [00:40:21] Could you technically just take the wine and not Yes. You My mind is blown right now. I did not know that

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:40:27] I used to take communion to woman that had terrible throat cancer and wasn't able to swallow. She all her saliva glands had been destroyed. And so I would bring like a, a a a, a small amount of, of wine and and be able to give her that for communion.

Vance Crowe [00:40:48] I didn't know that. I always thought one was primary and the other was like,

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:40:52] They

Vance Crowe [00:40:52] There one plus or something

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:40:54] Totally present in the wine, totally present in the host and it's not half and half or one's greater than the other.

Vance Crowe [00:41:02] Okay. So the alter, I guess they're not alter boys anymore. Right. But they

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:41:07] Servers, yeah, the

Vance Crowe [00:41:08] Servers, when I was a kid it was just alter boys. But there is a bell ringing right when precisely is the bell supposed to ring?

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:41:19] Well, part of it goes back to highlight, a part of it goes back to when, I guess when the mass was in Latin and people didn't, maybe, didn't always understand it, but this reminder them you're at important part. So it's, it's an know, it's like heads up. So it's done three times, it's done when you're, you you say the blessing over the gifts when you have raised, raised up the host and raised up the cup. So those are the three.

Vance Crowe [00:41:46] So as they, oh, so there's three, it's supposed to be three bells, three

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:41:49] Ringings. First one is I, first you say the prayer over the gifts.

Vance Crowe [00:41:55] Okay?

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:41:55] Then you, you have the consecration of the bread to become the body of Christ. And at the end you, you hold it up, present it to people, then you have the consecration of the wine between the blood of Christ and you hold up the chalice to those or the three main times that it's done at the Eucharist.

Vance Crowe [00:42:17] I mean, as long as I've got you on the, the, the canonical spot, the, during the, our father people hold hands. Is this a part of it? This no big deal. It's

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:42:30] A cultural thing. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:42:31] And then what about, I saw one time on a YouTube short of all things that the act of raising your hands like this at the end of the, our father is like some symbol that only a priest should use. Have you heard this? Alright, well then, then that, that's solved for me that

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:42:46] I, part of that gesture is a symbol with the words. I mean it's it's the idea of raising up.

Vance Crowe [00:42:54] Yeah.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:42:55] I mean that's why the priest does it, but it's not prohibited that somebody can raise their hands. It's like when people, little kids will come up to communion sometimes I'll say a blessing for them if they can't receive communion others. But parents could bless their kids every night if they want. I mean it's not just reserved for me in the liturgical context, it's usually done by the, the priest. But blessings can be done every day of your life. So that's, but the, the bells are, they're not an essential part. They're just a heightening of that experience.

Vance Crowe [00:43:42] Yeah, I had actually never even heard bells. It was only used at the very end of when I was being an altar boy. It was not a part of the regular mass for most of my childhood. And then when I came to St. Louis, this is, the practices here are slightly different than where they were back.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:43:59] Yeah, that's the kind of that cultural, I mean there's someplace a little different, different cultures have addons, so I don't, I don't know if, I mean, if you, you go to mass, it's gonna be the same mass, same readings all around the world. But they could be a little different in expressions of it because of well the language, cultural backgrounds and other things.

Vance Crowe [00:44:25] Well the one that has taken me years to get caught up on the tiny changes is consubstantial with the father. What, why did that change get made? And for if for people they dunno.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:44:37] I think they thought it was closer to the original. Okay. Language Khan means with sub of the same subs, with the same substance. Because

Vance Crowe [00:44:47] There had been quite a debate about is

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:44:51] Jesus

Vance Crowe [00:44:52] Also God and is the Holy Spirit on the same plane as Jesus and God, this is the, this was the,

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:45:00] That was a great Arian heresy that went on for three, 300 years at least. Tell

Vance Crowe [00:45:06] Me more.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:45:08] Well there was a priest called Arian who questioned whether that was true, whether Jesus was man or God. And, and there was a big debate and some people followed Arian, but part of it was political because Arian had the background of a king who kind of wanted the church properties too. And so it's, it gets all meld together. You're going back into the years 300, 400, 500. So a long time ago.

Vance Crowe [00:45:38] Yeah, I've been reading about this particular era of time, like when Rome ended up moving from being whatever religion they were and then taking Christianity. And then the is very interesting

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:45:50] Part of history, Constantine was at, and 312 was the Emperor Rome. His mother was Helena. And through her influence others, he be saw some vision. I think they won some battle. He decided he was gonna get baptized. And then Christian, then everybody else in the Roman EM empire said they were gonna become cap Christians. Before that they had been persecuted. You hear the stories of Nero and the persecutions of Christians and being put to death. Most all the apostles except John suffered some martyrdom. But they, the, the church has had many different heresies. Basically the church teaches that. And that's the heart. Jesus is totally God and totally man. And we struggled because we could emphasize one part or the other. And speaking about him and how do we, so it's always a little tricky when you're talking about who Jesus is, but the, the heresies were more people you said was the Holy Spirit. Where did he emanate? Did he come just from God or he come from God and the sun? And so those were early, early. That's when the Council of Nicaea, the creed that eventually was in 3 25, the accumulated wisdom of the early of what do we really believe?

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:47:27] And that's what we say in our, in our cradle statements, I believe in God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven, earth. And, and all those statements that became the summary of what they said it meant to be a, a Christian

Vance Crowe [00:47:44] Is to, you mentioned in the beginning, you're a canon lawyer,

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:47:48] Right?

Vance Crowe [00:47:49] So is this the level of, of things that you had to study? I mean, when I hear Canon lawyer, I think they know the rules of the church.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:47:57] Is

Vance Crowe [00:47:57] That accurate?

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:47:59] Well, they know the law of the church. I mean, rules follow from law. I mean, oh, okay. There's a hierarchy. I mean there's of law, there's divine law that's everybody's comes from God, that's, there's natural law. Our, like we say, you can't kill somebody. Somebody can't excuse themselves and say, well I didn't know that was wrong. Then there's manmade laws, lots of those. We use them in society every day for our wellbeing to get around. There's then there's different, there's liturgical laws, there's local laws, universal. So there's a variety of law. But they're all meant, I think, to assist us in being a societies. So different cultures have had different experience and it's, and they're changing as we get new insights. We, you had mentioned earlier something about the AI coming out. And so usually technology and science is racing ahead of law or sometimes even ethics. They're trying to catch up what do we consider to be ethical? What some of that has come through in, in areas such as cloning and has is this ethical harvesting of organs and different, so there's a variety of things that, that sometimes I think the purpose of ethics and laws to make sure that these things are

Vance Crowe [00:49:52] For the betterment

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:49:52] Of a society and not become a detriment. So as I said, the the pulp just came out with that encyclical about the, he called the magnificent humanity, the person, and to try about the dignity of humans. It's not that the, the pope is against AI or the meant, but he, he's presents a caution that if AI takes away our human dignity, keeps us from being what a human being is called to be then, then that there needs to be some caution and thought. And

Vance Crowe [00:50:38] I, I listened to part of it and I, as we were talking before the analogy where he says it could be the Tower of Babel where men were trying to climb up and be God essentially, where then they had to abandon it

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:50:51] Or

Vance Crowe [00:50:52] It could be like the walls of Jerusalem. And I can't remember what prophet he said was sent there. But essentially his job was to go there and find the merchants and the priests and the plebs and everybody and say This is your job. This is your job. This is your job. Yeah. And they all come together to rebuild the wall. So Jeremiah, you said, I thought that was very insightful on the AI because when I first started using it, I became, I would say motivated some might say afraid because I was like, this is going to go so fast that if you do not get on the train, you will be left behind and good on the pope to be this early to point out. Do not leave people behind because there is the very distinct possibility that those with resources will get access to all of the intelligence compute and the people without it will be left very far behind.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:51:48] He compares a little bit to that, the industrial revolution, that what took place and when mechanism machinery was taken over some of the works that humans had done. And some of that has been good for us. Some of that has been probably detrimental for the way that even humans were used in industrial evolution and they had to set up laws and guidances, especially like child labor laws came in at that time. And, and so I think even he's pres presenting, he's not because AI has good benefits, but he's saying if AI is the final goal, we're missing the point. The final goal has to be humanity. AI has to be a, a help to humanity, not a replacement of humanity. I had mentioned to you, I just happened to watch so 60 minutes yesterday and they had a, a whole segment on AI robotics and humanoids or they're making some robots to doing and some of those maybe menial attacks or they, there's somebody has to program them, somebody has to do them. But it's like the 2001 space. I it's see how, I dunno if you ever saw that movie?

Vance Crowe [00:53:16] Oh yeah. It's taking the how 9,000.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:53:19] Yeah. Taking over their, that ship there. But that's the support of even being a priest. I, I've been doing, trying to update my knowledge of all of this to help our community, especially our kids. I've talked to our stem cell groups and not stem, I mean STEM lab and how are we teaching the kids, how are they getting to use it? How are we helping them use it in constructive ways? Because some people, you could go on probably and get a, a whole paper written by ai,

Vance Crowe [00:54:02] Oh, many papers. Entire, entire encyclopedias.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:54:07] Then we lose where's imagination come in? Where's artistic? Where's thought Ian? I think you find dignity when you do work. I don't know how much dignity you find if you just if copied and paste something. And so that's part of a thing he was talking about too, about allow and the the gift of humanity to make sure it doesn't get just swallowed up by maybe technical advances that can make things happen. But is that for our betterment?

Vance Crowe [00:54:40] Yeah, there's a nuance. I mean I think of a good analogy is when you replace front doorman with a camera, yeah, right? You can now have one doorman monitor a hundred doors. 'cause he just looks at 'em all on a computer screen. But for every single person that walks into that building, they're no longer greeted by a human being. They're no longer having that, that electricity share that happens between how are your kids? How are my kids? Oh, you're seeing somebody be tired. And therein lies the dignity of human work being even more than just the way you feel. But how you interact with so many other people

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:55:22] And some animals cost, I mean they're talking about like fast food places or just talking to a machine and there won't be a person there. And I think a lot of it gets on that's cost savings for these people. But again, what does that do for us as humans? I mean, those used to be high school jobs or kids would do stuff or they learn some work or showing up on time. And

Vance Crowe [00:55:48] You know, it's interesting because the AI for me, like, so my kids, I've found out a, a cheat code to being a parent is that the Bible actually has all these stories that kids will go crazy over. I mean like when at the end of Daniel in the lions den, he Darius throws the bad guys into the lions den. I mean my kids are cheering, I have to get 'em calm down, right? But there's so much in the Bible

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:56:15] That

Vance Crowe [00:56:15] Just flies past me. And I'm, I've always just been like, I don't know, I'll just, I'll just not get that.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:56:20] So

Vance Crowe [00:56:20] I wanted to know who is Alexander the Great, right? And then how does this fit into the biblical tradition? And like, and so you can just ask AI and you just start having a conversation and you have a, a phenomenal expert on these things and the level of depth that I can now bring to understanding a story. For example, I wanted to understand the Joan of Arc story. Well if you read it in a little kid's book, it's just, hey, she went and talked to the king and, but if you go and then find out, oh the a hundred years war and this was at Avenue of France and this is why this was a big deal, and then those stories become so much richer and they would've just stayed inside of a book had it not been for ai. So there is a, there's a place for ai. Well there's lot of

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:57:06] Background. Yeah. As I said, I had meant, I was at a funeral lunch and I was talking to some older guys about, and one guy in advertising says their company uses a lot for doing that background or getting ready for an account and other guys and a hedge fund uses it for back financial stuff and background. And so there is that there, but how again, I think that part is, is not being debated. I think what's being debated is if we think it is, is AI the end or as humanity and focal point that maybe, and that's some of his cautions that he's presenting. I I mean I don't know if anybody has all the solutions or ideas, but he's, they're seeing this

Vance Crowe [00:57:55] Well I'll, I'll tell you, like to me, when I read or listened to part of the encyclical, I was like, however the selection process is for the pope. They chose the right one. Yeah. Because like for this moment in history, who else is going out and talking about these things and the way that they brought that to the world? I mean, you could have thrown out an encyclical that only a few people or maybe only the Catholics would've heard, but this was everywhere in my world. I mean, I, I knew it was coming and then they, they did a big, you know, I don't know if it was a ceremony or a a an explanation they brought in anthropic. I mean right. This is not an old fuddy duddy pope that's like, you know, often, often some weird corner of canon law. This is a guy that's actually touching what's going on with humans right now.

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:58:49] Well the purpose of any law is to enhance society is not to men. And I think he's trying to say, I think the purpose of a hopefully is to enhance society. It's an aid to us. But if you follow the old, like the old Hal syndrome, you don't, if it usurps that, that's issue. And that's what the Pope I think is raising. And that's been, and and I have heard most people agree with. He's saying even people in the business, he's not trying to talk about technology or that that's, that's a different discussion. But I don't, I don't know where it's gonna lead. I don't know where the, but I think it, it's opened up discussions at least, which is important

Vance Crowe [00:59:43] When I have a, a ton of Protestant friends and I grew up in, in a community where you could not hold the belief people from my church go to heaven and everybody else goes to hell. Because

Monsignor Shamleffer [00:59:59] If

Vance Crowe [00:59:59] You did, you wouldn't be able to live in that community. It was, it was a very

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:00:04] Mixed, you know,

Vance Crowe [01:00:05] Protestant Catholic community. How, how do people met this out in today's world? Protestants and Catholics, you know, like, do you have to follow Catholic rules? Can Protestants go to heaven? Can Hindus go to heaven?

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:00:20] You

Vance Crowe [01:00:21] Know, like, 'cause you have this thing I want to get along with people, but you also have to draw lines in the sands as far as what do we think actually happens here?

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:00:31] Well, who, who goes to heaven or who doesn't go to heaven is God's prerogative, is none of us. But what I think we're saying that the church is trying to say is that this, we're just not one among equals and that's what people don't like to hear. But this is the church that Christ started God. And, and it's the, the way to, to salvation of putting your trust in Jesus Christ. He says, I'm the way, the truth in life. Whoever followed me, we have eternal life. People who don't follow Christ, does that mean they're excluded? And again, that's not for us to say 'cause we don't, we, that's not our decision. That's God's decision. I think we, we wreck the church recognizes goodness in all people of goodness. And it's not there to downplay their, or a subject of their faith or to say their, what they're doing is not good. But at the same time, the church will say they believe that what the church is doing is greater than what they're doing. And that's, people don't wanna hear that. But that's

Vance Crowe [01:01:54] Expand on that more the, the,

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:01:55] I think what I think the church is, is that the pathway to salvation, others could be pathways.

Vance Crowe [01:02:05] I

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:02:05] Don't think it is that, that that same, I guess ability to lead us to, to God that does not though mean that somebody's Protestant or Jewish or Muslim or Hindu, you said, or Buddhist can't be in heaven. 'cause that's, that's really, again, that's not for, that's for God to make that decision. But I think when the church gives you, it gives people helps to make that supports and through the sacramental life of the church, through the presence of Christ, through our our Yes. Basically you're saying, yes, I'm putting my faith in the Lord. That's not something words that a Buddhist is gonna make. 'cause they have a different mindset. But does that preclude them from coming to heaven? I I would never say that. I would say again, I that's, that's God. I'm not God.

Vance Crowe [01:03:11] Herein lies where the, you know, I, I've been kind of playing with this hypothesis on my podcast for the last few weeks about

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:03:19] I

Vance Crowe [01:03:20] Perceive that Protestants, most of whom, you know genetically, they come from more of the northern European part of the world. I'll try this hypothesis out on you. They live in a world, not of symbols, but in literalism. Because if you are going to raise a crop, you need to start by this date. You can't start before it. And you can't start after it. You need to do it this way because they were dealing with harsh winters, right? And they had to organize and have things be very, very literal. And the Catholic faith much longer lived, but where it really proliferated was in more temperate zones where summer is not quite as hard or winter is not quite as hardcore. But still they have growing seasons and, and that Protestants, when they approach the world, they want precision, they want literalism. So they will look at a line in the Bible and they will say, this is exactly what this means and we need to take it absolutely, literally. And the Catholics will, yes, it's literal and there's more context. There's symbols within here. And so Protestants are much quicker, at least in my experience, that are to say, these people are going to heaven and these people are going to hell. And just like in your answer that you gave here, it was like, well there are rules there, there's a structure, there's a way. But I'm not going to tell you yes or no. It kind of fits into my hypothesis of Catholic symbolism and Protestant literalism.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:04:54] Well, if I being a Catholic, if I thought being a Catholic is just the same as being any other faith leading to God, why am I a Catholic? I think being a Catholic, I mean, we we're saying it is more, it is a better way. And that's as I diminish somebody. But it's, it's, it's our belief. It's my belief that it is the way, that's why I think why some young people have been attracted to it. They see it does have those foundations. It is a pathway. It isn't just, well be nice, be good. There's to being a, a Christian can be demanding. If Christ tells us, pick up our cross and follow. It's not always easy. You're gonna face people that don't agree with you. You're gonna face opposition persecution. And, but we, I mean I, and I mean the trick, but it is that it is the best way. So that I, I know that's hard for some people that don't, that aren't that. But that's otherwise, why don't I could be anything I wanted. Because if everything's the same, then what's the use?

Vance Crowe [01:06:16] I, I, I see your point entirely. I think it's just interesting that the Protestants will be very much like lying in the sand. These people are in, these people are out. But the problem is, or the challenge that they run into is literalism can just keep getting sliced and sliced and sliced. It's why it didn't end at Presbyterians. It went to Baptists and it went to, you know, all of these other Protestant faiths. 'cause people kept taking literal definitions and having different interpretations. And so the thing, I think the reason the Catholic church in my estimation is so powerful right now is literalism ends up leading to not being able to say nearly as much clearly in a, like a coherent way.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:07:03] Whereas

Vance Crowe [01:07:04] The Catholic church has literalism and symbolism and it allows them to have a consistency over a longer period of time. It isn't just, what is the interpretation of that word today? It's across a, a wider swath. So the, the, it's not looseness, but the, the understanding of the very complicated nature of humans and the gray area makes it so Catholics are not, they, they're able to transcend time in a way that Protestants, I don't think can.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:07:37] Yep. So that's, and then if you want, I mean the Protestant revolution partly came about through some misuse of by Catholics and 1500, the Catholic church started to build St. Peter's Cathedral and it was 150 years, it was finished like 1650. But during that time we had, that's when the Protestant ref, they, people were going around selling what they call indulgences to help to pay for this cathedral. There was, the printing press had come out, there was nations being farmed, there was political artistic about the renaissance was coming in. So all these were molding together, these new ideas and people. So the, the Catholic church was slow to catch up on something. And I think it led to some breakups. And I think that it was felt, it was under attack. So attack back, it's like the eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth idea. And, but gradually, I think it's the,

Vance Crowe [01:08:55] The,

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:08:56] Some of the mistakes of the church led to some of that. But then politics were in Dukes governors, they wanted church land. There was a lot of wealth there. So it's, it's a very complicated thing. It's not just theological, it's a whole societal change was taking place during a lot of these, these breakups. I mean the see, and Henry VIII wasn't, he didn't, he, he, he agreed with the Catholic church. He just wanted what he wanted and he didn't get the annulment so he could marry them. So he says, well, I'm just gonna start my own church. And I don't, Martin Luther really didn't want to to start a new tree. He wanted reformation to take place. Others got involved. Some of the, of northern Germany, some of the Dukes there. They, they now they think we can take control. We can get some of that land.

Vance Crowe [01:09:56] Yeah. My read is that the people like John Calvin and the invention of the Huguenots came as like a okay, they've, once Luther opened up the door, now there were other people coming in and saying, let's create different traditions. And culture was right for it. At that, at that moment. Like we always point at Luther, but I think it was way more complicated. It's just hard to fit all these people into a book.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:10:23] Yeah. That you could, this is a college level course and, and more just, just to know all the nuances behind all that. But the end result, as you said, we had these different breaks. They're all Christian, they're saying, but they, a lot of them became solo script bible only. It was not in the Bible. It's not, while the church teaches that tradition, scriptures, the magisterium are all divinely inspired while the, some of the Protestants say only scripture. And so there's, we have the dis difference sort of spread. Again, I think most, I don't know any Catholic, that one's bad for any problem. They want them, want them to thrive and do well. I'm not, I wouldn't be presumed to all Protestant. They're going to heaven or hell. It's not,

Vance Crowe [01:11:21] It's just not a part of the Catholic, like

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:11:23] No

Vance Crowe [01:11:23] Way of being used.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:11:24] I dunno if Protestants think more about that, they're the one I don't, I just not,

Vance Crowe [01:11:28] I think it really is this literalism. I I I stumbled upon this idea and then in, in interviewing people, 'cause Catholics and Protestants and Jews all come to do these Legacy Interviews. And one of the things, you notice it, one of the things I've noticed is that the characteristic that makes up your faith also pervades into how do you view

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:11:52] Other

Vance Crowe [01:11:52] Things around you. Sure. And there is something very engineering like, and literal and everything must have its place that is Protestant and something much softer. And it's, of course it's not gonna be clean drawn lines in this hypothesis, but it's, it's helped me to understand my Protestant friends better

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:12:13] When

Vance Crowe [01:12:14] They want to talk about something in a very, very specific way

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:12:17] Versus

Vance Crowe [01:12:18] Me being like, well, what about this larger picture? And both of us are talking in different languages

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:12:23] Because

Vance Crowe [01:12:23] Of the, the setup of our, not just our faith, probably our families and our genetics and all of those things.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:12:31] Hopefully our, our faith is a engine that helps to us to make life decisions. So I think it's gonna affect how do we treat people ethically in business? How do we, how do, how do we see marriage? How do we see our children? How do we see our membership in society? What place do we allow God in the important decisions of our life? Is religion something just when we're in church or is that something that touches all aspects of our life? And that, that's the part I think Catholic we struggle with even Catholics. I mean they just said, I, the, the, the rule that you should go to church. I, I think a lot of people don't pay attention to that. It's like, if speed limit says 30 and you're going 30, we go, oh, well it's no big deal. But I think for me, I grew up thinking it was a big deal. I, I mean that was part and parcel of who I was. We, we went to church. It was never a debate in our family. We knew we were going to church on Sunday. Now if somebody says, well, that they're not feeling great or something gets in the way.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:14:05] And I think that misses that opportunity to, to help see our faith as integral to our life. They wouldn't think of anything about missing their ball game or practice or school play. And, and we can get very eagle centric instead of being God centric. And that's, that's the fall that we, that I'm wanting to roach with people and say, how can we help each other better to be a God-centered people?

Vance Crowe [01:14:47] Well, my five-year-old, just yesterday she started being a little bit rowdy in church. So afterwards we're walking

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:14:54] Home

Vance Crowe [01:14:55] Like, what's going on there? And she said, I realize dad, it's the same mass every Sunday. So to her we're just doing the same thing. You know? And and how do you explain 'cause she can't understand, I mean can't really get the reading. What's that? I

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:15:10] Could explain it to her.

Vance Crowe [01:15:11] Yeah. Hit me, hit me. Give it to me.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:15:13] I would say, are you the same person today as you were a month ago? And I'd say you've had a month worth of experiences. Different things have happened. You, you're not exactly the same. So every time you come to church, you're a little different because of different experiences. And every time we come to mass, maybe something hits us because we're a little different that we didn't hit before or maybe the next time is something different. Some of the same actions are there, but I think we are a little different when we come. This is good. You see that school, she could say, well I was in preschool and I'm in this grade. I, I'm a, I crawl before I walked. I'm different. And I don't Does she read a little?

Vance Crowe [01:16:09] She's just beginning to Yeah. Yeah.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:16:11] So she's getting that. So yeah, I mean it, it can seem and, and the one way, yeah, I mean some of the same activities take place, but what should make it new is that I'm not the same person there.

Vance Crowe [01:16:25] Well I can tell you they love incense and, and our church does incense more than mine did back home. And they, they like, if it's an incense day, I'm, I I like, it's like dad hit a home run. What is incense is something. So

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:16:41] I

Vance Crowe [01:16:41] Don't know if you could perceive it when you came in, we were burning some, just a very small amount. Why does incense have a role in the church?

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:16:50] Again, i i was, it goes back to, to even the, the Jewish traditions of the altar sacrifice of, of idea of a, a sacrificial smoke going up. So it has some of that connotations. It also is the idea. It's, it's a, a way of bring it pageantry and touch different senses of this raising up. You see some people say in a purely practical reason, some people use it because people didn't bathe as much in the middle to cover up. But I think the more reason is what I just mentioned.

Vance Crowe [01:17:33] Yeah. I mean it's, it's amazing. So I have incense that I don't burn when people come in because it's so polarizing, right? If you smell frankincense and you're Catholic, you instantly, you walk in and you're like, whoa. Smells like church in here. Yeah. And people will say that and that's one of the most powerful parts about scent is that it just so deeply connected. And as soon as you, you smell it, do you have any idea, is there a reasoning why the three kings brought frankincense and mer

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:18:07] Those were precious items. So they were just as, God doesn't give us things that are unimportant to him. Leftovers he, things he doesn't care about. He gives us the very essence where made in his image and likeness. The kings were bringing what was precious to them. And they, they weren't just things that were thrown away, but it was a sacrifice. So they brought their, the minerals, the things they had that was most precious to them to share as a gift. So we, that's the amazing thing about good, important relationships. We find the more that we give, the richer we become. When we hold things back on ourselves, we actually become poor. We miss out in so many different ways when we aren't generous with our time, our love or compassion. And so that's the idea I think of them being abundantly generous. 'cause that's who our God is.

Vance Crowe [01:19:19] I like this, you know, the, I went through over the last eight months, a period of insane pain. Just, just, I was, I had shingles, I had this nerve problem I had, and up until that point in my life, the, the concept of somebody visiting the sick had just never really been something on my radar. But once you've gone through an illness and you get out on the other side contacting a person that you've heard, oh, you, you had shingles, I just wanted to call you and minister to you in some way. And you think you're doing it for them, but there is something very fulfilling for yourself to call somebody else and to Yeah. And to be there for them in a way. And it's something yeah. That you could easily miss in a busy world.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:20:11] No, I mean, I would say amen. That that's, that's, it's one of what they call the carpal works of mercy, caral bean body is to visit the sick. And again, it's the idea of both your care. They're not always looking for you to have the solution, but to know that they're accompanied as they go through it, whatever pain it is and or their loved ones with them. It's, as you said, you often get, as you said, much back in return just

Vance Crowe [01:20:54] In your role as a priest, you must be seeing many people that are last rights or sickness.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:21:03] Tell me about that. Yeah, I said I was with Saturday morning, I had a call early as somebody, I had a funeral that morning and I had a wedding in the afternoon. I, but I ran out to the hospital. Somebody that I knew well from the parish had taken a bad turn and was in the ICU and went to pray with them and anoint them and their, his wife was there, his kids were there. And so yeah, that's emotional. And you, you get people, pardon of my, I meet people sometimes at vulnerable times in their life and, and you do try to minister, it's like our healthcare provider sometimes we're at vulnerable times and we're putting trust in them. A child does that with their parents. They can be vulnerable. They, they're trusting that their parents are gonna want good for, to take care of them. And the same for me. I get to meet people. They're, they're, they're looking for that kind of care. They're not always, they can get to solve all their problems. It does. Part of our human condition is that we are corruptible and there is pain you said you experienced and discomfort and, and we have a choice that we can either turn to great despair and thinking no one cares why we or we turn to God and say, or be with me as I go through this.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:22:41] So that's a whole mindset, that whole perspective about the place that God has in our lives.

Vance Crowe [01:22:53] When you're a young person and somebody proposes the priesthood to you, a young man,

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:22:58] Your

Vance Crowe [01:22:59] Immediate thought is, no, I like girls, I wanna be around girls. But now as a 45-year-old man, I think the

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:23:08] Challenge

Vance Crowe [01:23:08] Or one of the things you miss out on as a priest is raising little children and not having them around. But when you're 18, you couldn't possibly understand that sacrifice. Right. Now, as a man in your age where you're at, was it a sacrifice to give up? Not not being a father of little children and

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:23:30] Sure, but I mean, it's because there's, it's a good, it's, it's easy to give up something that's not a good hard things. And we have two goods and we want both. And sometimes if they're not compatible, we have to do that. We do. You do that in marriage, you say to that person, you're my good. There could be other goods out there that, but, but I have, this is the one I have made my choice that we're, we're together with. And that's the, even being a priest has asked you not to have a family right now. And, and that is a sacrifice. And so that's yeah. You, you doesn't mean that you can't support kids that you're, you're never gonna be the primary person for them, usually as a parent would be or should be, but there's still opportunities to, to care for and support.

Vance Crowe [01:24:47] Yeah, I mean, I I mean you were with people as they pass away. I mean, yeah, I

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:24:51] Mean I've done that with, and I've taught kids, I've been with them, I've coached them, I've been with them at parents. I have nieces and nephews, and so been to a lot of different experiences this last couple weeks I've had seven weddings and six funerals. So maybe you get people, but of those seven, three of them were kids I had baptized like 29 years ago. So I've known them since they were little and now doing their marriage. So I have had a chance to be a part of their life, but it's different than being a parent, but it doesn't mean that there still can't be good. And so I think that takes some extra work, even my own sociological needs. So it takes a little extra work. I don't have that built in person like a family or a wife, that, that has a focus on you. You have to be willing to reach out to others more, just not.

Vance Crowe [01:26:05] Yeah. That's very interesting. You, when you're married, you are the focus of your spouse for for better or for worse on a lot of stuff.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:26:13] Yeah. It sometimes we do great and other times we're imperfect,

Vance Crowe [01:26:17] But I I you do have somebody paying attention to you, whereas in your world, you, you're very much attending to people, but you're very rarely, I'm

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:26:26] Not one person that's attending to me. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:26:27] That you're the number one person to them. Right,

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:26:29] Right. And that's hard. But you, I mean, you come to that realization and, but it's then you have to make set up situations that keep you healthy.

Vance Crowe [01:26:44] When you were going through seminary, did they prepare you for 40 years from now? You know, like, I don't know how you could did,

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:26:53] I mean, to an extent. I mean, we try the best academically, but you never stop. We mean we're, we're, we're dyma dynamic individuals. We're always constantly having new insights, new we're not static. So it it gives you a foundation of, then it gives you a place to turn when you need to grow in that. So it gives you some, I think the ability to to grow. Grow what I mean, I don't know if it told me about all, we didn't, we were talking about AI 45 years ago.

Vance Crowe [01:27:36] Yeah, of course not. Yeah.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:27:38] But we, but the humanness in that, I mean, I was blessed on a, grew up in a stable environment and I have siblings, most of 'em live out of town. But I know what it's like to live in a family and be a part of that and those dynamics. Was

Vance Crowe [01:27:58] There a priest in your family before you?

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:28:01] There was a man, yeah. He ended up leaving the police priesthood. But

Vance Crowe [01:28:09] Was your family surprised, excited? How did they feel when you decided to join?

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:28:14] I don't think, I think my parents were pretty much that what you, whatever we decided to do, they would be okay with. So they, I don't know if they were surprised. They didn't tell me. They were surprised. Some of my friends thought was, was surprised, but they said the same thing. They go, why are you gonna do that? Don't you wanna get married? And but eventually that they really cared about you. They'd be, they'd support you.

Vance Crowe [01:28:43] Yeah.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:28:44] But maybe in their first initial reaction was that doesn't sound like a good idea to me at all.

Vance Crowe [01:28:50] Well, because you're walking a different path than them. Yeah. It's not a path they're walking,

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:28:54] But some of them are. So some good friends of mine from those men and, and women that I've known from. Then

Vance Crowe [01:29:03] How did you choose or were you chosen to go into Canon law?

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:29:09] The archbishop asked me then, then May to, to do this. So he chose, but it's, yeah, that's almost 45 years ago. But it's been a great experience. I had a great experience. I had classmates around 16 different countries. It was kind of the, the Gulf War was going on for part of it. And so it was interesting.

Vance Crowe [01:29:42] Where did you do

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:29:43] Seminary? I, well I did a seminary here in St. Louis. And then I did this ca it was up at the University of Ottawa. And then we had some classes in Rome, like a jurisprudence program. What

Vance Crowe [01:29:59] Language was the class in?

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:30:01] Well, depending on the professor could been from Latin to English to Polish to depending what they, I mean they Italian,

Vance Crowe [01:30:17] Do you know those languages?

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:30:19] No, I can, I know Latin, but I could read, took some fr when I was up in Ottawa I took French too so I could read some of it. But yeah, I wasn't there long enough to get my ear attuned or any of that.

Vance Crowe [01:30:34] How did you learn Latin? In, in, in

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:30:37] School.

Vance Crowe [01:30:37] In school.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:30:38] Just took, did you ever take Latin?

Vance Crowe [01:30:40] No. Oh, I was in public school in central Illinois. So there were not, there weren't a lot of Latin classes, but I think that it would be a very transferrable, you know, that knowledge base sets you up just like you've been doing the whole time. This word comes from this, this is the root of that word. And I think it helps you get to the meaning of things in a, in a cleaner way.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:31:00] So yeah, I think especially in today's, even the changes, the, the influx of Hispanics have have made it less in our, but a lot of areas you need to know Spanish at least enough to communicate. Yeah,

Vance Crowe [01:31:18] Well and look at our pope, you know, he goes to Spain and well he lived

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:31:21] Huge in Bolivia for 20 years or more. Part of it's learning language, part of it's learning the culture too. That's sometimes the challenge. And especially we, we are getting people coming here from India and Africa and they had grown up in a different culture and they might know the English words, but they don't always understand all the nuances and how you treat people. How, so that's a, a challenge for them.

Vance Crowe [01:31:53] Yeah, I would guess. I I, I lived in Africa for a time and would go to their services and they, they were so different that the only, the only reason you knew you were in a, in a service at all was 'cause somebody told. I mean it was so different for me that it was like not, it didn't, it made no coherent sense.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:32:10] Yeah, that's the cultural differences around the world, you see. But I think, I think good Catholic is to, in all aspects, I mean to, to be a, here in the United States it's important to be a good citizen to value that obligation. I think as a Christian we, we value that relationship with Christ and hopefully that helps form who are and our dealings with others that we have that respect and dignity that we treat others. I think that's the great struggle in our society of have and have nots and the inequalities that are there. The inability sometimes to even have conversations politically, we really struggle with that right now from different parties that we have trouble thinking, well if you're not agreeing me, you're against me. And so that's really foreign to the Catholic. I might not agree with every Jewish, but that I'm not against them.

Vance Crowe [01:33:26] I sense there is a coming, If not religious war, ethnic war. I think, I think that the pressure that's going to happen in culture around things like ai, I think the disillusion of, I think there are a lot of governments that will not be standing in the future. I think we've printed money for a long time. I think we're seeing problems in like Belfast. I don't know if you saw that over the weekend. You know, like there is real cultural tumult right now and I think it's easy to think of it maybe as the industrial revolution. I I would make the comparison more to the Cambrian explosion. I think the world is going to change so much that it's, it's difficult to ev it we, it'll be like ad almost, you know, the

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:34:13] Change

Vance Crowe [01:34:13] From BC to ad

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:34:15] Yeah, I I, I mean I know, I know the example you're talked about but that's, I don't know, I mean the church, I think we're always been involved in all humanity, but it might be, as you said, the pace of it's going quicker and quicker it seems.

Vance Crowe [01:34:33] Yeah. Like we're accelerating all the time.

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:34:37] I had a great aunt that was born in 1900 and she died in 1999. So I mean she, when she came to this world in 1900, it was the horse and buggy and she died with a rocket. And so in that hundred years and then we're another 25 years on now we're continuing to see, so as I said, science technology is out racing some of our and making sure how do we keep our values and ethical and that's the challenge that I think we're facing. And so that's mostly I think I have to center on what am I doing here and now is what I'm doing now healthy things, helpful things? Am I or am I doing things that are hurtful and destructive? And, but that's why I said even being the leader of the fake community, I'm trying to do my updating, I said demographics, I'm doing stuff on to keep my own prayer of my own at doing on AI and just so to be the best support you can be,

Vance Crowe [01:36:00] I think that's exactly all you can ever be. So yeah. Monsignor, thank you so much for coming in. I really appreciate it. If people wanted to reach out to you talk theology or anything where, where would one reach you?

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:36:14] They can reach me at St Genevieve de my last name is S-H-A-M-L-E-F-F as in Frank ER. And my email is with that my last date at

Vance Crowe [01:36:34] Oh, don't worry about that. They'll find you. They can sign you org. Yeah. Well thank you very much for coming on. Alright,

Monsignor Shamleffer [01:36:42] God bless you Vance. Alright,

Vance Crowe [01:36:43] That's gonna do it for my interview with Monsignor Shamleffer. Thank you for hanging around. As I said at the beginning of the podcast, I am holding a class on interest-based communicating. This is where individuals learn how to negotiate, how to tell a story about themselves, how to have deeper conversations, how to have productive conflict and even how to present. And we are doing a very special three day class here in St. Louis where it will have everything from classwork to experiences to meeting interesting people and really some deeply profound nighttime activities that will help you understand how you communi communicate and how others can communicate with you. So we'll play a little video clip of that on the way out and we'll be back in a little while with another interesting conversation.

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