Former Heavyweight Boxer on Why Men Are Losing the Modern Economy and What Data Says About It

Ed Latimore [00:00:00] Yeah, but low replacement is our fertility rate. I think it's like 1.7. You need to be at like 2.2 or higher to ensure that like your civilization continues. And for people you know, all to dive into that. For every two people have one kid that's not good enough 'cause they're both gonna die. So if everyone keeps that up, they're gonna, so you need to have more than two kids on average. And we are not doing that. I'm Miriam Hoffman, a full-time college student living in Carbondale, Illinois, and you're listening to the Vance Crow podcast.

Vance Crowe [00:00:29] Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here Today. We talk with the guy that plays chess, was a heavyweight boxer, goes around and gives talks and grew up in the projects. His name is Ed Latimore and I encountered him because he talks all about stoicism and writing and he's just a really interesting character. So we sat down and talked about some of his theories about what growing up in the projects did for him and how he got into boxing, how the underworld of boxing works to make money, promoters and all that stuff. And then we get into topics like red pills and why men in our country are being unfairly, having the, the floor tilted against them. This is a little bit edgy of a conversation, may not, if you have young children around, wanna have them listen to it. We don't talk in graphic detail, but sex is mentioned and I think it's a pretty fun and interesting conversation. So you should definitely hang around. This is gonna be a good one. One of the things I mentioned in the last podcast is that I'm putting together some of the classes that help people become a tangibly better speaker. And I'm going to be publishing those. There's two ways that you can get involved. One, if you'd like to be one of the people that I use as my test case, the group of people that I show my first draft of my classes to, then you can join the Articulate Ventures Network. And actually I'll give you direct feedback stuff that normally clients pay me to do. I actually use this group to help me hammer on my ideas.

Vance Crowe [00:02:01] Or you may just wanna wait until the classes come out. They'll be starting to come out in the next two to four weeks. And they'll be everything from how to introduce yourself in a semi-formal situation so that people are interested and wanna learn more about your business and how you work or negotiations. How to make it so you can create win-win situations and become far more comfortable with conflict. Next month I'm going to be working on a class about how to explain your research in a way that makes people want to listen to it and understand it. And I'm looking for a few people inside of the network to help me work out some of these ideas. So we'll be asking you to give a talk and then giving you feedback on what you can do to get better. And I'll give a little bit of a lesson if these are things you're interested in. Either go to network dot, Articulate Ventures to sign up to become a member of the network or sign up for the website, sign up for emails where we'll let you know as these classes come out. And you can do that by going to Vance Crowe dot com slash podcast. And now without further ado, onto my man, ed Latimore. Ed Latimore, welcome to the podcast.

Ed Latimore [00:03:13] Hey man, thanks for having me. It's a, it's a good time. I'm sure we're gonna end up talking about some really cool stuff since we had to cut our conversation short to get the podcast started right now on time. So I,

Vance Crowe [00:03:25] I was watching some of your videos and you're unique in that you're very forward about talking about how you came from the projects and you made a very clear distinction between the projects in the ghetto. And I think just for our audience, we can get into where you're at now, a chess master, former heavyweight boxer, but you started out in the project, what in the world was that? Like, why were you there and how did you get out?

Ed Latimore [00:03:49] Why was I there? I, you know, just strolling around, wandered into the projects, never got out. No, I was born there. I was my, you know, I'm a product of what we consider, I guess, you know, a single mom. Like I knew my dad, but I, I mean, to say he had her hand in raising me is, is just inaccurate and really does a disservice to, to my mom. But he was not a ghost, like, you know, I wasn't a bastard in that sense. So I I, I guess maybe I spent, you know, at Kay, I'd see him like four times a week, four times a year and, and really only like one or two days. And then as we got older, I would like go to go for the summer. But I think that only happened like once or twice. And at home though, we lived in, in public housing. My mom was on welfare for, for a while until she got a job. But that didn't happen full-time. Like job that didn't happen until I was like, I was in high school. But that point working on myself. So I didn't really, you know, need that. But everything you hear about the, that, that environment is, is fairly accurate. I had, I had the, the typical project experience, you know, crack heads, gang members, everywhere of violence. I fought a lot until I got to high school where I was, where I went to a high school across town. And, and you see a lot of stuff that you think is normal until you go around people who don't live there and you're like, oh, it's not normal to getting your ass kicked.

Ed Latimore [00:05:27] Like I, I remember I had an experience where I said to a kid, I said, how many times you guys been in fights? And they looked at me like, what? I remember I got embarrassed, man. Like my friend came over and my mom whooped my sister's ass, man. I was like, whoa, this is, because they was like, like these are upper middle class, middle class people. The high school I went to, they don't know anything man like that. Like they've, they noticed stuff the way like I know about prison through the media. Like they don't know. No, but I'm living it every day and it's just like, okay, whatever. But it, it's, it's one of those experiences, the way I describe it is it's an education you can't pay for and it's something you can't learn. You can only be taught. But I, I'm very careful to not, to not say that, oh, you know, because of this harsh environment. That's how you make someone amazing. Like no man, I'm, I'm a clear case of survivor's bias. Like for every, every one of me, there's a bunch of dudes in jail still there, then we got a girl pregnant early, all that stuff. I made it out because I had a a a really good combination of some things that I can't control. I always, I'm always very cognizant of very cognizant and appreciative of those things. You know, I had a mom who, who really, she didn't, she did a lot of stuff wrong, but, but something, she did a lot of things right. She, she put some discipline in the house, you know, I, I didn't wanna get my ass kicked by my mom. And, and that's, that's probably important.

Ed Latimore [00:06:59] She exposed us to books. We, we, we had a sand in the house that a book is a treasure. And she always was reading a bunch of like fiction and not the trashy fiction. Like my mom loved, like Stephen King and, and what is his name? James Patterson and Dean Kuntz. I'm like, like, I don't read these guys, I just know those names from seeing that on the bookshelf. But that got us in the books and, and she, you know, did her best with what she had. And I've, I've gotta think the natural kind of temperament that I have that kept me from, from falling into the crowd, I was never really popular. I liked video games to begin with. That really helps, you know, being an outcast when you're younger. I really came back to help me being an ugly helped when I was a kid because, you know, no girls wanted to mess with me. So I never had a chance to get anybody pregnant. No. You know, dude, I, I'm I'm being so serious. Whereas I'm crazy. I had a nickname. It's actually, well I had a nickname when I was a kid. I don't know if you remember the Michael Creon novel. They turned into a movie, Congo. The kids called me that because I looked like an ape, they said. And so like, that was like the name I had in my housing project. People like, I've run into people today and they'll say that. And I, and, and you know, now I'm now I'm vastly different. And I was just ignore that shit. Like, you gonna call me with my name and I'm 36 years old. This ain't just, but, but that, that kind of stuff goes on mad. I'm, you know, I'm grateful for, for grateful for it.

Ed Latimore [00:08:31] 'cause it's very easy to fall and stay with what you're familiar. And,

Vance Crowe [00:08:37] And so you ultimately became a heavyweight fighter. I mean, I even got to see some of your professional rounds where you were really beat, beaten on some dude.

Ed Latimore [00:08:46] Yeah, the the boxing thing is a really, because, 'cause typically when you have someone with my background, it's like, oh, he must have been boxing to get outta all that. Like, nah man, I didn't, I didn't start fighting until I was 22. And, and it's because, it's because I mean the story I tell people, and this is true, I was dating this girl and, and I had at this point been kicked outta college the first time. Or it was more like, you know, when you're about to get fired and you go, you can't fire me, I quit. That's really what it was like. Like

Vance Crowe [00:09:15] I left,

Ed Latimore [00:09:17] Took off and, and I was on this real big antico rant and I would talk about it to anybody that would listen. And this person though, this girl I was dating, her mother was a college professor biology. So that didn't go over well. And one day she said to me, she goes, okay, let's pretend that you're right and college is worthless. I was 22. She goes, what have you done for the past five years or past four years other than show up to my house and eat my food? And I was like, ouch. And then she threw me out, right? But, but she threw me out. But it got me thinking. I was like, man, I really don't have any sweat equity in this world or anything. And so this was back when u YouTube was getting big. I remember looking at fights and I said, you know what, I can try that. It was either outta the military 'cause. So I went and, and started fighting and I had some early success and just kept building and building lucky braces in a few places that just set me up and set me up. I mean, I wor I worked extremely hard and took some risks that paid off, but fighting probably one of the best things to happen to me because, you know, not just for the discipline aspect. You know, I wasn't even the most disciplined amateur at least anyhow, I was mostly a drunk when I was an amateur that I would fight, drink, fight, drink, right? But one of the things that taught me was, it really taught me the power of being likable. Because what you, what you have to do as a fighter to survive in the, in the local circuit is you need to convince people to come and spend money to see you do this.

Ed Latimore [00:10:51] But you can't, you can't be a pushover. You gotta be likable, but you gotta be yourself. You gotta be unique and interesting. And ideally, if you do this correctly, if you do your job correctly, they're not even gonna really gonna, they're not even really gonna get a full day of entertainment. You should go in there and eliminate the God and be done. Sometimes they gotta drive over an hour to come see this. So to get somebody to part with 30, do 30 minimum most shows, some shows are 50 and do it. So you're in a good grace with the promoter to get put on a show as an amateur and both as an amateur and a professional. People gotta, they gotta support you. So they gotta like you. And that really taught me a lot about bus, the, the people aspect of business, which is what you, you know, everyone, you know, anyone can crunch numbers. Hell, a computer can crunch numbers, but what are you doing? What the humans? And that really taught me the value of, of, of people in that boxing.

Vance Crowe [00:11:45] Oh, that blows my mind because you know, I was doing juujitsu before COVID and you're right, there are some guys that are like, oh, come to my match, come to to my match. And you're like, man, I don't, I don't want to come to your match. And then there's some guys where you're like, I would trip over, you know, large objects, I'd do anything I could to get there. 'cause I love that guy. I wanna see him win. Absolutely. And if I can't make it, I'm gonna watch it online and, and a hundred percent. But it never dawned on me that if you were gonna make it as a professional fighter, that being likable or being, being somebody people wanted to root for is really important.

Ed Latimore [00:12:16] Check it out. Here's what had there, there's a few routes to a career as a professional. This is not so much in amateurs 'cause there's, there's other routes that don't require such charisma in the amateurs, but in the professionals, if you, you, you're, you're matching with guys and you're developing. So you're not fighting good guys. You know, you're moving up moving and moving up and what they have to do, what a promoter has to do on the local show, if you're not signed to a big promoter that has the resources, the TV dates, the money, et cetera, is he's got cover you, your purse and your opponent's purse. And the idea is that you sell enough tickets to make that happen. But if you can't do that, then you're in a weird position. You're still, you still can fight, but no one can really afford to put you on as the a side where they're selecting agon development. So what you do is you get selected as the B side and the B side is a really bad place to be when you're developing. 'cause there's only really two outcomes as the B side. Well, okay, three, but the third one is, eh, okay, one, you go and you start building up a losing record and you start being known as you're, you're gonna be known as the can. You're gonna be the guy they call to develop other guys. They put money in too, right? Then there's the other path, which is you're actually better than they thought. And somehow they missed you and you upset one of the guys. And now they're like, okay, do we sign this guy or not?

Ed Latimore [00:13:48] Because they're not gonna sign you outright. What they're gonna do is they're gonna put you up against another tougher guy. They're gonna see how you do. Now if you make it through that gauntlet, then you're, then you're good, then you're gonna get signed and you're in a different position. But no one gets to that gauntlet. These are smart guys. People don't realize. But the, the same freaking, you know, three, four guys been running boxing for the past 40 years and they're, they're like Harvard educated dudes, man. Like it is not, you know, har Harvard educated dudes are criminals. You know, Don King, Richard Schaefer, the Les. These are like, what the hell? I can't even go Al Hayman. These are like smart guys. They put connections and they know this game inside and out. So very rarely is someone surprised, like when you come in on the B side, you're supposed to be beat. Okay? Now how badly we can get beat determines is determined by the quality of the a side guy that they're bringing up. But they know you're supposed to lose. And if you win, you don't really win. The other guy just loses. They, they, he might lose his contract or something. They, they're not like, oh, you beat him, we're gonna take you in with your Form 15 record. Like, no, there's nothing they can do with that. They can't market you. You go, all right, we'll we'll call you back when we need another guy. But now you're not gonna get as many calls. 'cause now you're too dangerous. So how was your path, man, that sound, that's so much more convoluted. How was my path? Here is the path that is supposed to happen.

Ed Latimore [00:15:19] And this is, okay, so I'm, I'm gonna tell you a little secret about boxing. Anybody can be professional in boxing. It's not like the other sports where there's a drafting process. All you can do, you just go down and say, I wanna fight professional. And you'll become a professional. Or rather you'll be an amateur until that bell rings. Like you could decide you're gonna walk to the ring and then get up there, you know, and, and quiver shit your pants and decide that's not what you're going to do. Okay? But what the purpose of the amateurs are to do when you do this, you skip the amateurs. What the amateurs are supposed to do. They're supposed to teach you the game. They're supposed to give you a chance to earn some accolades, maybe win a national title, get on the Olympic team, get a national ranking, do something so that when you turn professional, you have some bargaining chips to get a promoter. Because remember there are more networks than promoters. So they have their pick of who to work with. There are more, there are, or rather there, there are fewer networks than promoters. That's what I'm to say. There's only like, like six networks and, and I might be overshooting the show boxing, there are some more promoters, right? But the promoters, there are so few promoters relative to the fighters and the promoters are how the fighters get on the networks, right? And so they have their choice. So you gotta have something to make them go, we wanna work with you, we wanna work with you, we wanna work with you. And you get that by your amateur career or, or you do a, a hell of a job upsetting a few people As a pro, what I did, I had a great amateur career.

Ed Latimore [00:16:56] I did everything you could do as an amateur shirt of go to the Olympics. Yeah, right? I didn't, I didn't go to the Olympics or, or, and, and that, that sucks me. But it happens. But when you do that, when you, when you get a national team, when you fight some top guys who go on to have good pro careers or do something else in amateurs, then when they, when you start, when you start talking to a manager, someone that has a, someone who these promoters will pick up the phone for, right? Because the pro, everybody wants a promoter. So you gotta have somebody who's gonna pick up the phone or, or who has enough clout to where they're gonna all We'll talk to this guy. I'm fortunate that I lived around a that lived around the Yankel family. Tommy Yankel the trainer, mark Yankel, the manager. So Mark y Kelo had the connections with my amateur record. You know, you gotta have the sauce, you gotta have something there and then you go market with a manager. And he was able to get me signed to Rock Nation Sports after my sixth pro fight. But that's not common. Or rather that, that that's what's supposed to happen. But a lot of guys, they're not, they're not patient. Especially guys who start fighting later, man, I I, I've heard guys say, I don't wanna fight for prize, I wanna fight for money. And I'm like, finally you knew how little money there really was here. You, you changed your mind. So how did your career then go? How long did you stay in? I stayed, I was fighting, my last fight was December, ah, 16th or 17th 2006. And that fight ended in a draw and I was off my first loss September 23rd, 2016.

Ed Latimore [00:18:35] It's crazy how you remember these dates 'cause like it, it, it, I can go look 'em up whenever I want to on box Rick, but I was, and then I was, I took a year off and I said, I'm gonna go finish my, my schooling and just focus on that. 'cause I had been like, as a pro, I was, I was in school at the same time and in the army at the same time. I never really got a chance to just train as a pro, which I'm so like, like at the time that felt miserable. I am so happy I did that though and put myself through it now because now, you know, a lot of my life is, is a direct, well an indirect result of of doing those extra, extra things. But I had my last fight on, on, on December, 2016. I was slated to come back in 2018 to fight. 'cause I took that whole 2017 off, knocked out a bunch of credits and, and you know, almost dealt with my degree. And I got injured while I was sparring. And I said, what am I doing? Because at this point, an interesting happened thing happened in 2017 and 2018 I figured out how to make money online and, and my writing started to get popular and people started to find out. And so, so I'm, I'm sitting here, I remember May, may is when I graduated, may, may of 2018, right? May of 2018 is when I graduated. That was the same month that I got the injury sparring. I was preparing a fight at God New Zealand for my comeback fight, got this injury of the pullout, the fight. And I'm like, what should I do?

Ed Latimore [00:20:06] I'll just heal and come back. And my coach calls me and he is like, what are you doing? You just got, 'cause I had just finished my degree in physics, which is like not hard, not easy, I mean got that, but I'm also making a, I think that was my first, it was, yeah, it was my first 10,000 plus month and first 10,000 plus week. And so I'm like, okay, well I probably will go travel or do something. It was a, it was a good time and, and you know, 'cause when you fight you don't really get a chance to, to relax because it, it's, it's a weird life. You need to, to be at your best anyhow. Some guys will just take time off and only show up eight in the gym eight weeks before a fight. My coach wasn't having that. I wasn't having that. And so you're, you're in there all the time training and being in shape, which is what I would, which is what I would have to do. And you know, this life I live now of, of pretty much being able to get on a plane and go wherever I want or stay in Europe for months at a time. That would be non-existent. So I, I just waited out and I said, you know what I got, I got a lot out of this game. Like probably more than most people get because I was in an, I was in a great situation as an amateur after, after a three year amateur career. I got, I got lucky and I ended up in a program that paid me to train for the Olympic trials. And then as a pro I had a, you know, a bit of a rough start financially, but I got signed to Roc Nation and I cleared that up, plus I was getting money from the military. I said, okay, I've had a really good run, like, like, like a, like a good enough run.

Ed Latimore [00:21:40] At least let's go do something else and see where that goes.

Vance Crowe [00:21:45] I mean, I'm afraid to ask you 'cause you like dropped all these little things in there like that you studied physics and that you were in the army. But I like, the thing that I really want to get to is I heard you giving a talk that I think a lot of people would be really surprised by. And it was about the how boys are being raised in, in the United States and kind of the red pilling and how that's important. And so I'm totally down with people looking up your bio, but I think you've got a lot to say about red pill that it's gonna shock a lot of people.

Ed Latimore [00:22:16] Yeah. So, so here's the thing about, about the red pill and a lot of the ideas around it.

Vance Crowe [00:22:23] What is the red pill for people that don't know? You use a lot of jargon in your talk that I

Ed Latimore [00:22:27] Think people

Vance Crowe [00:22:27] On the inside know what they're talking about, but

Ed Latimore [00:22:29] People wouldn't, okay, so I'm, I'm going to use the jargon as it's intended and then describe it that way. And, and we may not get to why I need to make that distinction, but we'll see. So red pill is understanding the true nature of intersexual dynamics. Okay? And, and the problem today is that a lot of intersexual dynamics is, is just being outright, mis, mis fed to us or being lied to in many, for many reasons in many ways. And, and you, you kind of see this when you look at some raw numbers or we're below replacement and people aren't dating anymore. Below replacement is our fertility rate. I think it's like 1.7. You need to be at like 2.2 or higher to ensure that like your civilization continues. And for people, you know, all to dive into that. For every two people have one kid that's not good enough 'cause they're both gonna die. So if everyone keeps that up, they're gonna, so you need to have more than two kids on average. And we are not doing that. Not only are we not doing that, we're having them later, much later. And, and this is where the talk focused on society is, you know, it's a pendulum swing. Some would argue not really. And I'm, I'm starting to shift into the not really camp. We aren't honoring the differences in the men and women. We're treating boys like defective girls and we're treating girls like they should be exactly the same as guys.

Ed Latimore [00:24:06] And it is, it is creating this weird world where no one really, certainly under 25 and just because of the nature of my life, I've had the ability to, to talk and interact with a lot of 'em. Dating is very different than it was even when I was 25 and I'm 36. So 11 years ago things really changed and things had changed tender. You know, I was a dog man. Like, like I'm telling, before I met my girl, I was a dog. I was on every app, right? And tender happened so fast, I never had a tender. Not because I'm better than tender, it just wasn't around yet. We've been deliver together for eight years. So it's a quick change and it changed the dating landscape. You're not talking to people directly anymore, right? You're not walking up and approaching the whole rite of passage for, for a god to go get shot down by a girl or have to talk to her father when he calls the house. Days is over man. And on top of that, women are now being encouraged to embrace and flaunt their sexuality without considering like perhaps what, what is that old saying? Don't rip down offensive if you're not exactly sure why I was there in the first place. Well, we don't really, under, people are starting to learn that maybe that's not, not what they do with it. Whether they decide that this whole culture of of the Me Too movement and is, is a, is a, and trust me, I'm not one of those guys that say they didn't do it. I say this, you look at a Hollywood and there's a bunch of names.

Ed Latimore [00:25:37] If it was really a witch hunt, right? Like, which can go after all these guys, everybody would be up there. Nah, there's like a fu dudes and then there's a bunch of stories come up. So you probably should at least, you know, where there's smoke, there's fire. I'm that kind of guy. With that said, you know, one of the things I said when Harvey, and I know I'm, I'm, I'm jumping off on a tangent, but I'll jump back in. One of the things I said about the whole Harvey Weinstein thing was, well, why don't we talk to the actresses that got the part, right? Why don't we see? Because because look, and no one wants to have that conversation, but that conversation is part of what I'm talking about is that we have, we have tried to blur our differences to androgyny, but human nature is like, I know 50 years been good, but I've been around for millions evolving and I'm gonna do what I do. And, and whenever I got a chance to, we, we used to have kind of a system in place to deal with that. And now you're, you're crazy for suggesting it. So what I talk to, you know, I can't talk to what it's like to be a woman. At the very least I have my ideas what I think woman should be, but who's going, you know, listen to me, whatever, whatever, right? I'm like, I'm a guy. What I am though is a guy. So I can talk to guys and I can speak to their issues and do my part there as far as, as far as helping us out because, because I think god's got, are getting the short end of the stick, not just directly in terms of some of the legislation and the way medicine is handled. If you watch a speech, I talked about how guys are like four times more likely to be diagnosed with a DHD and custodial.

Ed Latimore [00:27:12] When, when, when parents are awarded custody in a split. Women get it like 80 something percent of the time. And the suicide rate for men is, is insane. Not just in general, but especially after a breakup. I mean, and, and no one talks about these things because why should they, you know, we're gods, we're toughen up. One of the, one of the burdens of masculinity is you don't complain. Right? To the point that even if you complain about legitimate stuff, other gods like, man, shut up. Like we're not, you know, we're not trying to hear that weak stuff, but someone's gotta talk about it. And, and I'm in a position where no one can call me, you know, weak. And you know, my resume is there. I'm clearly, I I've clearly risen to the challenge many times in my life as a, as a man. So I can talk about these things that are important to me. Because ultimately what happens if, if we don't, if we don't cater to young men, is they grow up to be adults and all of a sudden your daughters don't have a suitable mate. Or you have a guy that's obsessed with porn and OnlyFans and then promotes that culture to make your daughter go to his money there. Okay? Or you have guys that aren't capable of defending themselves against, against guys that didn't get that home training. 'cause there's always wars out there, you know, so someone needs to talk to guys and, and that that, that's just the direct hit. We're not talking about, you know, the, the porn and the video games, it's huge industry and it, and it's not even so much the video games. The video games are, I don't play them, but I can understand how one gets, you know, into them.

Ed Latimore [00:28:46] Okay? But the porn is a big deal because porn is a, is, is, is a, is is a, a single missile that breaks off into many, it's a scatter bomb. It it comes at you and you think, oh, it's just something I'm gonna sneak away and do. But your brain treats it like any other addiction. It's one of those things. Porn is unique in its addiction qualities or, or it's use in the, unlike other drugs, porn is not a social drug you can sink away, do it. No one knows you do it for years. You, you know, you, you ain't never seen our green, most crack heads smoke together, people use together, right? No guys are are getting together going, let's go watch some porn together. No, that's the thing that's done in shame. It's in the dark. It ruins relationships 'cause of that. So once again, we're coming back to what happens when no one, when no one talks to guys and tries to help them deal with the issues. This society is deemed unimportant while society starts to collapse. And it's hard man. And it's very hard because there's not a lot of credit even given anymore to being a good man. All masculinity is lumped in to toxic

Vance Crowe [00:29:50] Too. Yeah. I think that there's like huge social forces that are going on that have changed the fabric of society. And like you had said, we're not, we're not able to talk about these things. And you know, one of the thoughts that I have about human nature is we don't really need soldiers in the same way that we used to. Like once we had the atomic bomb, then the, the way that society started to, to deal with the fact that like it used to be, so we talk about on this podcast the theory called bear branches theory, which is what happens to a society when you have so many single men that they, because they have no chance of getting married, they either haven't been able to collect enough resources, they haven't been, there's, there's one man that's getting several women. And so there's like not a good balance then you start having an unstable society. And that unstable society, like in in pa in ancient times would, you'd have banditry, you'd have people being robbers, you'd have militaries forming. And so countries used to go start frivolous wars to go have those soldiers die. And then the ones that came back, you know, they had a selection pressure. Those are gonna be the strongest ones. The leaders, they're gonna be integrated back into society. But now you don't have that with the atomic bomb. Like now we've got a thing, we've never been able to get rid of this and we're not dealing with the problem.

Ed Latimore [00:31:11] Bombs, drones always tell people, boots in the ground, combat between two developed nations that will never see it again. We will, we will never see something like World War II again, where there or World War i the, the next war. If we have, because I really, I was talking to someone about this today, the, the global global economy and telecommunications has really taken the, taken the, what's the word I want, incentive out of combat. Not to mention life is very comfortable, no one wants to go fight, right? They talked about this in, in a, when you enlist in basic training, the first week you watch a bunch of videos, they call it death by PowerPoint. And one of the things that stood out to me, even though this was eight years ago, non-action, one of the things that stood out to me was that the number of stress fractures increased linearly from 1985. One for people in basic training. And they raised this point about being in shape and training, but they also correlated that they called it the Nintendo year. That's the year Nintendo came out. So more kids were, or more kids were being less active. So when they tried to go do something like enlist, they weren't ready to fight. But that bear branches theory, you know what else happens? There's two, two ways They, like you said the war thing. We, we don't have war anymore. Instead we got the video games Call of duty porn. We, we, we have a way to escape for some guys that ain't good enough. And you know what you get, you get the Alex Manassians, you get the guy that just did Colorado, you get the guy who was in, I can't remember his name, but, but shout out Virginia Tech.

Ed Latimore [00:32:43] You get the, who else was motivated? The, the the guy down in the Parkland shooter. These guys are motivated a lot of times by lot of love. Anders Luon, I, I hope I said his name right, the guy in Europe who flew that plane. Are you saying these people are motivated by lost love? Is that what you just said? They, they have mentioned it that, that it's part of the incel movement guys that can't get laid anymore. I mean, it's a serious problem. And like Elliot Roger had a whole manifesto about it. So, so, so Saudi and I don't know if they're ever going to get to talking about it. They probably won't because, because it'll it'll be something else other than the obvious. Just like, you know, I I I'll never forget 'cause I'm, 'cause I'm, I'm sober and I I'm really big about talking about it. I don't, I'm not liking ab and Jelly is trying to, you know, stop drinking this. Someone wants to talk to me about it. I tell 'em what I can't. I got a lot of articles on my website about it. I wrote a book about it. And when I was researching a section for my book, I called it the Drunk Elephant in the Living Room. I didn't include it because I didn't want people to be distracted by this point. But one of the stories I found, they were the, the people on Stanford's campus, they were dealing with another sexual assault and turns out there was alcohol involved. And in most of these assaults, alcohol was involved to the point where i I crunched numbers based on some data that that was, that's out there on a number of sexual assaults reported and, and the percentage who admit the drinking and surveys and, and what I roughly came up with in my rough statistics math, and I'm not bad at math, I'm good enough to get a physics degree.

Ed Latimore [00:34:22] So I know there's some rigor here. If you removed alcohol from the equation, you would eliminate about 95% of all sexual assaults. But what do they focus on when they talk about the sexual assaults? They talk about tell boys not to do it. They don't mention that, that most of these things that are occurring are happening when, when both parties are ingesting a substance that is proven to, in girls totally ruin their ability to read signs. And guys, and it actually does it both. We, we, you can't read signs about what's going on. So she may be thinking one thing, but her body language is presented another and he's misinterpreting it. He and, and no one knows. And then on top of that, you sober up and you feel regret. And that's a whole different thing entirely. But because we don't want to talk about the actual problem, we can't solve it. And the actual problem, if you look at the numbers is the alcohol involvement. But instead they shift the problem, make it sound like it's, it's a guy's not being trained right issue. And that's just one example. And that's the same thing I think they're gonna continue to do when we, 'cause when you look at, I mean these guys have an, they, they right manifestos talk about what's wrong and no one talks about it. Or when they do, they go, oh, some guys they couldn't get laid, yada yada. Right? But if it keeps happening to them, what is, is it, I i I don't know what the solution is, but it's clear we have a problem and we know what that problem is, which supposed to help you solve if, if humans approach things logically.

Ed Latimore [00:35:57] But we don't do that often.

Vance Crowe [00:36:00] Yeah. There's something really that happens that's rather profound when a man and a woman get married or they, they become long-term partners, is that men end up way lowering their aggression, their, the, the reckless behaviors that they have, the risk taking

Ed Latimore [00:36:15] Behaviors.

Vance Crowe [00:36:15] Absolutely. Because you've already done the actions that you needed to, to rise up the hierarchy to find a mate. And then you don't need to keep expressing those. But if what we're doing is we're making it so people can't find a mate or that the social structures are set up that the really unlikely, then they're not gonna lower those risk taking behaviors. And then we're gonna be like, look at that monster. He's took all these risks or he did these terrible things, therefore we should punish all men or then paint them with that brush. And we're really like, we're not looking at what's actually happening. And, and really like truly the sad thing, I had a commercial sex worker on that goes by a girl and, and she really talked with a great deal of pity and empathy about the men that, that that contract her to have sex. And she's saying, these people are lonely. These, these people aren't like hiring a prostitute because they just love prostitutes. I mean, surely there are some, but there are a lot that the only way they can get affection and respect and somebody caring about them is to pay for it. Because the avenues where they earned it are, are not as plentiful as they once were.

Ed Latimore [00:37:22] I think about this all the time. I used to, I, you know, I was one of those guys. I used to say, man, if it was you guys can't get laid, you know, just, just hire a prostitute. It's not about that. It's not about the sex. The sex is the sex is a, it's quite literally a cherry on top. And, and, and, and the, and the best way I could analogy I can make a metaphor, the real thing that Gods want, they want, they want female validation, they want the affection, they want the companionship, the sex is, you know, that, that just comes with it, right? Well, you know, one of the things I tell my girl all the time, you gotta understand that the, I like you, like I, I'll fall in love with you just by banging you a few times, but I like being around you and that's why I'm still here. And that's what holds the relationship together. I mean, how you look is what made me initially start talking to you. But I'm still here because we, we have, we, we've got shared memories now. I can't replace the time or not, right? So, so there's a real bond that goes on that people are looking for, but they have made our society so counter, counter conducive or anti conducive to this, to this bond being formed. I, I think, think it's, it is crazy that like the, the number of girls, for example, who think it, it's, it's foolish to have kids so early or to or to be in a relationship, but we, we naturally want relationships. It's not to have that be removed or have them only try to consolidate on a few select guys, which is what usually what happens, right?

Ed Latimore [00:38:59] What we were saying in the, in the branches theory, the modern version of that are the guys with like, you know, blue check marks on Instagram or a bunch of money. It's the modern version of the, the the warlords or or the lords who would, who give have all the these, they have a harem or harem. Yeah. Same difference. Now the difference, the difference now though is that the girls don't get anything out of it except, I mean, nothing. They, they just get used up and then eventually some guy be happy. But they, so put you on the spot a little bit. You've mentioned your girlfriend several times, eight years, you're together, why not married? You know, it's funny, why not married? Okay, so this is, this is, I'm, I'm, I almost said proud of myself, but I don't, I don't think most people are gonna be like, this is something proud of. So when we first started dating, I think it was about two years and we had the conversation and I said, I don't, I don't think marriage is is my thing. I'm not interested if this is a problem, this is probably a good time for you to leave. Okay. And, you know, it was, you know, it was kind of depressing, whatever, but it was okay. She, she deals with it 'cause she likes me and I still bring value and I present the argument that like, my time here is, is more proof than any ring I could give you or any commitment. 'cause I'm still here, right? I I, we've known people in the eight years we've been together who have gotten married and divorced, right? So, so time and matters because it's easy to dissolve that certificate. And then some more time went on and I was like, all right, well I'm not, I'm I'm not going anywhere.

Ed Latimore [00:40:33] It's probably, probably around like year five, about five and a five and a half year six. 'cause I looked around 'cause that, that was right around the time where I, I graduated and I was like, I, I be able to see stuff and it's like, yeah, you know, I could really like go on a tear and it'd be a good time for a little while, but they can't cook. They're stupid. Then I have to like learn stuff about them. Like, no, like, I, like, I like, I know my girlfriend's like buttons. Like I kind of know what to do. She knows mom, I noticed she's pressing him at, you know, something's up and we need to deal with that. And I expect, you know, she, she's got the right personality for me. The odds of finding out again, yeah, I'd be able to, but do I really want to go through all that? Man, I'm might fucking die tomorrow or something, you know. So this year, or rather last year we were in Portugal and she's a Portuguese citizen, so she, she wasn't on the clock. I was very much on the clock. I had to leave in six months, otherwise I'd risk not being back allowed back in the eu. And I said, you know, this is dumb. We've been together this long, why am I not married to you? Because it would be a lot easier at this point because we could just stay in Europe. And so I actually, this, this Christmas, I gave our a ring

Vance Crowe [00:41:53] Beautiful

Ed Latimore [00:41:54] Emerald ring. And I said, all right, now we just gotta decide how did the best way to do this I'll probably figure out, you know, because, because I hate weddings like fundamentally just they bug me. But, you know, why

Vance Crowe [00:42:07] Do you hate weddings? This is fascinating. Why?

Ed Latimore [00:42:09] You know why? Because, because it's a lot of attention for something that's already been going on, right? It's not like back in the old days where it was two families coming together for the first time and then, and a couple had had sex and nothing like that. And then, and you know, half your family's meeting her for the first time. You know, now it, it's, it's, it's a holdover from a different time where it meant something different. Okay? Now I, I feel weird one asking people to give up a whole Saturday to come celebrate a relationship that realistically it'll be at least nine years old by the time it happens. Probably, maybe a decade. There's that too. I hate the attention for it. Like I don't mind the attention when I've earned it. We were, I was talking to my girl about this.

Vance Crowe [00:42:58] So you'll invite people if you've been boxing, but not to get married.

Ed Latimore [00:43:02] 'cause I've earned the 'cause I've earned the fight. Yeah. That, that's a lot of trap and a lot of training for that. This, I just had to, you know, not fuck up pretty much.

Vance Crowe [00:43:12] I mean I think that marriages are hard, you know, like being with somebody. So my only pushback on that would be when I got married, I really thought it was about me and the woman I was marrying. And I I really like had this very modern, updated, like it's about us. And I have come to the realization that it is not that, that what it really is is you saying to other people, Hey, we want you to be included in on the fact that we have said something that we are not gonna leave each other and we want you to hold us to that. And if we want you to hold us to it, then we might as well have a celebration about it.

Ed Latimore [00:43:47] Yeah. You know what? That, that is the last wedding I went to. I went to a friend's wedding about a month ago and, and I almost said no, I, I say no to a lot of wedding invites 'cause I don't like them. But I've been, you know, this, this has been a guy that supported my boxing career and I've known him probably the second or third person I've known longest in my life. And I said, you know, let me go. And, and the, the person who did the ceremony said something very similar to that. And I remember I actually said to her when I got back, I said, you know, my, my mindset's changed a little bit about weddings, but then that led to a whole argument. And then I had to, but, but ultimately, no, I think, you know, I think I think we'll get married, but, but what I don't want to do is I don't wanna wait. Like, 'cause for me, like it's a, I'm, I'm, I'm practical is all get out to the point where like, it, it's kind of a problem. But I've been reading a lot of Chris Voss and how to negotiate and, and so I was able to like present my case a little better and make her her feel better about it. But for me, I was like, okay, I'm, I'm gonna get my, my ability to be a resident in Europe outta this without paying for it. Like that's, that's what I get for this. Because normally

Vance Crowe [00:45:01] You're a romantic. I see.

Ed Latimore [00:45:03] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. But, but I, at the end of the day, for, for me, and this is why I'm, I'm fine with saying that without, without any problem. I say it to her all the time. I want to make it clear because at the end of the day, what I've, what I've given you outweighs any, any, you know, a certificate or trinket is, is my time or my commitment here. Like, and, and I enjoy it and I have, and I, I have a great day every day with her. Even when she's in our bad mood. She's, she's, she's fairly quick to, I mean, unless I like did something legitimately wrong and, and I'm self-aware enough to know like I'm, I'm not a, a pig head in that sense. I know because I, I tend to think about that and I think that's one of the reasons why our relationship works so well is because I, I put a lot of effort into reading the people around me, but also being self-aware. So I know if I messed up and I need to have a talk or if she just needs to be ignored and sometimes she just needs to be ignored, but some, but if I really made a mistake and I think about it and I, and I and I, I go, okay, and we, we talk it over. So I I'm, I'm just in a, I'm, I'm in a great, great position in this relationship and I, and I am gonna gonna marry her because it'd be good because you know what? I was too. We just got back from vacation and everybody kept calling me Mr. Harrison. I was like, God, I'm no look or I'll call, I'm, I'm, instead of her being Ms. Latimore, I'm Mr. Harrison.

Ed Latimore [00:46:33] I'm like, all yeah, this is annoying. Like I remember I was like, fundamentally, because this happened before, whenever we dropped, but this time I was like annoyed about it. I was like, yeah, we're going, we're gonna fix this.

Vance Crowe [00:46:43] So what I thought you were gonna say is, is that the institution of marriage in the US is like really not an even playing field. And the more that I've talked with men that have gotten divorced, like for me and my wife, like I'm certain that we're gonna go the distance. Like it it a really horrible hell thing would have to happen for my wife to leave me. And I'm not leaving her, but I know a lot of people that have been divorced and the man got taken to the cleaners and is now another,

Ed Latimore [00:47:14] Another area of that, that, that, now here's what I'll say about that. I'll say two things. One, no one gets in their car thinking they're going to get into a collision, but you wear that damn seatbelt, right? To me, look, I told her, I said I had once again no bones about it. I said we're gonna get a prenup because if this doesn't, if this, if this doesn't work out, I don't want to have to seriously sit and debate killing you because, because she was telling me a story about the alimony and the, and the child support combination that her sister's new husband has to pay his ex-wife. It was something like, it ended up being like 15 grand a month. Okay? And, and he's like in his fifties. So I was like, so I said, I said, when she told me that, I said, okay, he's over 50. That means realistically he ain't going like the, the odds are not for him getting another 25 years outta planet just 'cause that's the average life expectancy. He's got enough money where he might be able to get off that. That sounds like an easy expected value problem to just killer. Like, and I mean, not like with his bare hands, like you gotta hire and do it right? But like, and, and so I said to her, I said, we're gonna get a prenup because I don't wanna ever have to really think about that. And I would think about that because, because I'll be damned if, if we break up and the government says, I got to pay you and you got another man, nah, something, one of us got to go and it ain't gonna be me.

Ed Latimore [00:48:47] I am, I am very far from that guy that would, would, would offer myself. So yeah, there you go. Yeah. I think

Vance Crowe [00:48:55] The thing that, the thing that scares me, and not for my own self, but for the people that I know that have gotten divorces, like when there are children involved, and like you said, the, the wife gets the children 80% of the time because there's still the, you know, we've done, we've made all these other updated beliefs about the egalitarianism of the world and that women and men are equal. But when it comes time for the child, unless the, the woman has like a certifiable, you have

Ed Latimore [00:49:22] Definitely, she like, she's a crack head and she comes into the courtroom with the crack pipe,

Vance Crowe [00:49:27] Right? Like

Ed Latimore [00:49:28] Be these cracking that right now? Or was it No, it, it, it is crazy. But this is one, this is, this is what I'll say about that. You gotta remember something about this whole movement and movements in general. No one fights to a draw. A draw is something they accept what they really want us to destroy and win. It may not, now I'm using malicious language to make a point, but outside of that point, now that I have your attention, when you look at the numbers, when women are kicking our ass and every area except one notable one, there is still more male CEOs because, and then that almost certainly has to do with the continual, uninterrupted timeline you have to put in to be a CEO of something. But in terms of graduation rates from high school and college bachelor's degrees, I mean higher level degrees, masters and PhDs, entry level employment, they're killing us. And, and no one wants to talk about that. It is no longer a thing about equality. It's about where are we not winning and how can we win there and where we already are winning, how can we destroy and dominate. What I mean by the first thing is there's this huge movement to try and push girls more, more women into the t and the E of STEM technology and engineering, right? But they're not really interested. And we know this not from any type of science study on our brains or from anecdotals. No. We've got the data from Norway where they have one of the most egalitarian courses.

Ed Latimore [00:51:01] Like literally they can do whatever they want and women just don't go into those fields. Not interested. But what they're trying to do here is they're trying to push, push, push, push, push. Okay? That's the first area. And in the other one where you can dominate, it's still, I went and spoke at this program. I was very grateful for this program that I was in in middle school. And they, they wanted to bring back some of the, the alumni to speak to the kids. And I had a woman actually pull me aside and say, before I spoke and goes, the girls are doing great, but if you can talk to some of the gods or tailor your messages towards them, that would be fantastic. And that was the first time I'd ever heard a, a woman admit that they're, they're killing us. And, and no, and, and it's still presented as if it's a man's world. Women spend more money, they buy more. I mean, they, they, they, they, they have all the consumer power. Okay? All the, the academic power. If you say something wrong or even remotely or of color in a workplace, they have the power to erase you. Vice versa, not so much. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:52:08] I, I've worked in several environments where like, because I'm in communications, right? So there's a lot of women in that field and like the things that women said to me if I said them back to women or if I said them as like a joke or I made, like women have made jokes about their periods in front of me. They've, you know, made jokes about my looks and I don't, what, what do I care? It doesn't really hurt me or harm me, but if you were to switch the polarity, it would be, people would be

Ed Latimore [00:52:37] So

Vance Crowe [00:52:37] Outraged,

Ed Latimore [00:52:39] Right? And so, and this is the thing, one of the, the greatest tricks any social movement has ever pulled. And that social movement right now being second and now moving in the third wave, feminism not the first wave. You know, they should have the right to vote and work, whatever. But I'm talking about the shit we're dealing with now. The greatest trick they pulled was convincing us that they are losing. And so the whole society, even of the guys, no one who, unless you think about it and you see the numbers, they will convince you that the reality is something else. And you'll fight for, for a thing that, that is not true. Remember that, I dunno if you remember that story. They came out on Google where they, where they ran the numbers about the wage gap in terms of they were paying the women more, right? Like, this is not it, it's, it's amazing 'cause you're one of the first guys I've been able to like, talk to who, who is hearing it, you know, neither either way. But hearing it, and there's kind of way of, from a different angle. I

Vance Crowe [00:53:41] Think that there's like some really interesting nuance that's being lost here. Because, you know, just tomorrow I had to cancel a, a client meeting and it's 'cause I gotta take my daughter to work. And it's just the way that it worked out. That's just the way that it is. And like, that's fine because you, it like, my wife has an important job, I want her to succeed. That's fine. And women do have challenges. Like if you're gonna try and breastfeed a baby and you want to make it so the baby for the first year of its life is breastfed, the woman has to get up at 3:00 AM and feed that baby. And then if you're expecting her to go to work and still be in top form, like that's a real challenge. Like, that's like, and if we do want women in leadership positions that they've earned, not that they've been given because it's some HR policy, then you gotta make some sort of like, you know, accommodations for that. And before I had a child, I really didn't understand this, but it is, it's, I don't know how you solve this problem, but you certainly don't solve it by shoving it down people's throats because that's what it feels like is going on. It feels like what people are saying. Men are all bad. We need, like I saw the other day, the other day, I was flipping through LinkedIn and a, a place that I used to work at had post after post after post of people standing with their photos like this, I kid you not, and they were all taking a pledge for gender equality. So it is just like post after post of people being like, and I was like, this is bizarre.

Vance Crowe [00:55:14] This is like insane.

Ed Latimore [00:55:15] It's, it's very odd. It's, it's,

Vance Crowe [00:55:20] And it's stripping out all the nuance. It's making it so we aren't having legitimate conversations, right? Where we're talking about people that do need to breastfeed shouldn't be knocked out of in, in the environment. But you also don't want to promote people just because they have two X chromosomes. But if we can't have this conversation, we're, we're, we're only going to be in that exact situation where you were talking about where we're going for a draw, we're going for defeat.

Ed Latimore [00:55:45] Which is, which is kind of what you have to do because, 'cause people are really bad at nuance. And, and, and I think some of it's intentional is in, if you simplify an argument to a binary or a digital as opposed to a Grady in our analog, then you, you force someone to make a decision and there's, and if there's only one right decision from a politically correct standpoint, well then, then you win. So I think there is some intentionality there. But another part of it is that, is that, that's a very complex argument and there's many moving pieces to it, right? Like the whole idea of, of like, like I'm a, I'm a huge fan or whatever that I don't, I don't know the term off the top of my head, but the idea that women should have a fairly lo at least way longer than they have now in the United States paid time off when they have a child

Vance Crowe [00:56:43] Maternity leave, right?

Ed Latimore [00:56:44] But, well, it's just maternity leave. I thought it was something else. Yeah. The, the maternity leave should be, should be way longer. Okay. And, and the, a little policy like that, you know, that that little change does, that little change takes the sting out of having kids earlier, having more than one kid. So maybe we get above replacement levels, okay. And when people start reproducing, but, but the way it works right now, 'cause everything is like a battle and no one can sit down and really have these conversations. Certainly, at least not people that matter who can do something about it, then it's one or the other. And no one is no one, one. The other thing I've learned too is that people are really bad at second and third order consequences and reactions. Like, like right there. That was, that was very easy for me to think, okay, well if there was a longer maternity leave, then you make it more likely that people will have more kids and have 'em earlier. Because no longer it's about choosing career kids. It's both.

Vance Crowe [00:57:49] So I'm sure you've heard of the company Monsanto.

Ed Latimore [00:57:52] Yeah. Monta the food, I mean, or, or not food, but, but seeing the

Vance Crowe [00:57:56] Ag company. Yeah, yeah. Seeds. So I used to work there and they, they no longer exist, they were purchased, but one of the things that they did, and they actually had a very strong record of, of women being in definitely middle management, middle upper management, is that they had onsite childcare. And what this enabled moms to do is to bring their kids to work, drop them off, and then when they wanted to do things like breastfeed, they could actually stop by and do this. And it had huge implications because people would take dramatic pay cuts, would not, would not do other things because they really wanted to pr they wanted to be a professional that was able to get into the regular world, but they didn't wanna have to give up everything to make that happen. So they maybe were working in jobs that they didn't love, but the fact that they got to do this made it way better for them. So I, there's definitely ways around it. But, but not if it's either or if they do those binary solutions. Yeah, exactly.

Ed Latimore [00:58:52] And, and you know what, you know, what we're doing here in this, this conversation, this is, you know, because, because the, the, the counter argument that's often made is, oh, you know, a guy has to sacrifice all this time to get to that position. Why? You know, if you can't make a sacrifice like not have kids, then you shouldn't be there. And, and we're hearing and we're talking about the negative of that, and when you have some kind of middle ground, some kind of solution that satisfies all parties, you tend to end up with a better outcome for everyone. Like, like that company Monsato, they, they ended up, they, they retained talent and they probably would court more talent as well. Not just retained, but attract. And then everyone continues to be the, the, the company doesn't solve productivity issues. And, and more people are like, oh, I can do this. This is good. I can have kids if I want and go work here. But, but right now, you know, humanity in general is just, just really awful at solving we capitalism in and of itself when I'm not an anti-capitalist God, all, I just see it for what it is and recognize some of the benefits and some of the drawbacks. And that's, that's everything. Everything has benefits and drawbacks. But capitalism has taken us very far. One would, one would even say probably farther than we thought it would take us. Because when you incentivize people for what they do, they tend to do more of it. And if that is progress, they make more progress, et cetera.

Ed Latimore [01:00:25] Right? Look at what, look at what SpaceX is doing after, after we basically killed off dreams of, of, of outer space travel by defunding NASA like 10 years ago. Now, you know, it's all the rage again, but the capitalism, Elon Musk said, I'm gonna take my money and spend it here. But what it does is that it, it makes it because of the two things it makes is greed and self-interest. It makes it very easy for a person to only see the most profitable solution instead of the most optimal solution. And sometimes that means giving up dollars in the but to, to have a better overall outcome, a more sustainable one. But, but people don't get it. They don't see it. 'cause like my, my coach talks, I was talking about how cheap boxing equipment has got over the years, but the company that that focused on quality, yeah, they gotta charge no more. But, but winning everyone knows what winning gear is. If you got winning gear, you're serious about your craft and they have no problems. If you got some bs, I won't name any companies, but if you got some bs, the, the tier after, you know, freaking 50 rounds on a heavy bag and you're too hard, well it's cheap because they're just trying to maximize profit. You'll come back and buy something.

Vance Crowe [01:01:38] Yeah. I think that one of the biggest problems we have is when people are evaluating capitalism today, they're forgetting two like really major changes to it. One is regulation. When we got the SEC involved and we started having it where you have to report your earnings as a public company every four ev every three months. So you gotta do it every quarter. Like people then start saying like, look, we're gonna lose share price if we don't meet these earnings. Like, so it turned what could have been long term growth into really short term thinking. And, and like that's what Bezos did to grow Amazon was he kept coming up and being like, look, our our, we are not gonna keep returning quarter to quarter. It's just not gonna look very good. We're not gonna have high dividends. Our p and e is gonna be not that great. But the, the over time it made it a really valuable thing. But like many, many companies are so focused on what are you doing next quarter that they burn the ships this quarter in order to make it happen. And then the second one is companies are so worried about being sued, rightfully so for any of these challenges, whether it's like discrimination for whether that's gender or race or age or whatever the things are that they start putting in these really, you know, hardcore bureaucratic things where end, it ends up that corporations operate like the government who is only following regulations. And those two things have made people really suspicious of capitalism when really it's not capitalism, it's the what, whatever you would call that oligarchy or bureaucratic.

Ed Latimore [01:03:12] It is, yeah. That that's probably a, that's a, it's a really good point. It's not the thing that is, that has changed because capitalism at its core is kind of a human nature thing. I want value for whatever I give you. Right? But when you, when you start putting a, when you start putting a system to that, then you, then you end up coming up with something else, whether it's, you know, you produce out of value, I take it and I don't kill you, you know, surf them, slavery or something like that. Or it's, you know, you produce the value and we, we distribute it to the, to everyone else even no matter how much you put in some form of socialism or communism. Those are, those are all things that, that we call it. And I think what we have now is, is something yeah. I mean, I guess an oligarchy is, is is closest, the best way to describe it, what we have now Yeah. Has, has made people like you look at the healthcare system, it's made people very angry and distrustful. It's like, what am I getting right? That's what it is. It's not valuable. You're not getting a return on value anymore. Right? Because, because the idea, right? If I spend so many dollars on my college education, right? In this time, my college education is supposed to guarantee me a certain standard of living. That's why I'm invested in it. It's not supposed to be a bare minimum entry point to a $15 an hour job. That's not what's supposed to happen. But 'cause everyone wanted to go, they just raised the price of it.

Ed Latimore [01:04:42] Well

Vance Crowe [01:04:42] And everybody wanted to go because HR needed a way to be able to say, how do we make sure we don't get sued for discrimination? Well, we'll say the only way you can get a raise is if you go get a master's degree. Okay, now let's go get a master's degree. And money flows into the university so they're happy about it, people pay for it and then the ones that get it, get a, get that higher rage. And so we're watching HR whose, whose only job is to avoid being sued.

Ed Latimore [01:05:07] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:05:08] Wreck the, the, the system that should be the signals that should be sending people to whether they should go back to school or not. Yeah.

Ed Latimore [01:05:15] Peter thi has a great talk about the problem with college and he says it's like, it's like two things that shouldn't exist. An insurance product and a tournament. And in insurance you're trying to minimize risk and in a tournament you're effectively maximizing risk. We don't, we don't call it that, but we know that first place takes most of its second place takes a bit less, but still the majority. And then third down, eh right, better luck next time. And so you have people that go into it with this insurance mindset, this is going to get me the, this is gonna get me a minimum. And then they get out and realize, holy shit, I'm, I'm in a tournament and I am the same as everyone else. There's no way I can win. So I'm gonna settle for leftovers. Which usually mean I worked at Starbucks once and, and I can't tell you, in fact, I can tell you I, my friend myself and one of the person were, we were the only people, people without college degrees or in college when I worked there, everyone else I worked with God's serving coffee man with freaking master's degrees. Like, what are you doing, dude? Like, that's crazy to me. But that's so common. Go or any Starbucks, most of those kids got degrees now because they, because they, they, they tried to play play insurance. They tried to be safe and they were safe, but because it ended up being a tournament, they were really in trying to maximize everyone else was taking the exact same strategy.

Ed Latimore [01:06:46] So it became effectively worthless.

Vance Crowe [01:06:51] Amen, man. Well, we could go on and on forever, but our time has run out. This has been a lot of fun. Ed, if people wanted to learn more about your work, your writing, help some of the, the projects you work on, how would they go about doing that?

Ed Latimore [01:07:05] Oh man. I'm Ed Latimore every place on the internet. My website is@latimore.com. My Twitter is at latimore, my Instagram is at latimore, my Facebook is at latimore. You just type that in and wherever you feel most comfortable in social media interacting or, or if you wanna just shoot me an email. That is how you do it.

Vance Crowe [01:07:23] Well, we'll have to have you back on ma'am. We'll have a conversation about chess and all sorts of other things, man. But this has been a blast.

Ed Latimore [01:07:29] Hey man, I agree. Thank you.