#290 | Dr. Tim Jordan; What you need to know about raising a daughter

Tim Jordan [00:00:00] They showed the pictures to the women and you know, they started to feel sad and kind of empathetic. And then what they noticed was that nine different parts of their brain activated and both sides, wow. A lot of emotional centers in the female brain. They showed the same pictures to the guys, two parts of their brain and one side.

Vance Crowe [00:00:18] I'm Christina Hudson Kohler, an egg processing manager living in Syracuse, New York, and you are listening to the Vance Crow podcast. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here Today we are in the Mind of the Child Series and this is our second episode where we are trying to explore how is it that children learn and grow and figure out how to navigate the world maybe from a different angle than traditional education. Today we're sitting down with Dr. Tim Jordan, who is a pediatrician that, over his career, decided that his work would best be focused on helping young women learn how to interact and engage with the world, have conflict, have better conversations with their parents, so that that way they can navigate the pressures that are unique in this modern society. Dr. Jordan has his own podcast. He runs retreats and he was recommended to me by a close friend and former podcast guest. And when I sat down with him, I really didn't know how this conversation would go, but I would say I will likely be a better father after having had this conversation. We're gonna get to that interview in just a moment, but many of you know that we use this studio to conduct Legacy Interviews. These are confidential conversations and so it's a little bit difficult for us to tell you very much about what happens in here. What I can tell you is that we sit down for several hours and we talk about the life experiences that a person has. We go through their childhood, their career, the marriage that they had, the parenting that they did, and the legacy that they hope to leave behind.

Vance Crowe [00:01:54] We've been working on some new technology that we're pretty excited about and we now have the capacity to store your interview on a special disc that is expected to last over a thousand years. This is technology used by the archivists at Brigham Young University and the Department of Defense, and we are really excited to have brought this technology into our Legacy Interviews. If you're interested in having me interview one of your loved ones, go to Legacy Interviews dot com to find out more. Alright, without further ado, let's go to the interview with Dr. Tim Jordan. Dr. Tim Jordan,

Tim Jordan [00:02:29] Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me.

Vance Crowe [00:02:33] What is different about growing up as a young girl in today's

Tim Jordan [00:02:37] Day and age than say when you were a child? Wow. How long do we have for that one? Right. You know, one of the things, we just have run three father daughter retreats in the last three weeks, like four day weekends. And we were talking to the dads about what's different. 'cause they always ask, you know, what's different? And I think one of them is when I was a kid, my parents would send us out, like outside on a Saturday morning and we didn't come back till dinner. And obviously they had no idea where we were 'cause there weren't cell phones and, and all those kinds of things. And we had a lot of freedom to just go out and do stuff. And so I was off in the woods shooting BB guns and pellet guns. We were, we were going to different neighborhoods playing hockey games against other neighborhoods. And so we had the freedom to expand ourselves, to learn street smarts, to supervise ourselves, solve our own problems, all those kinds of things. And I think a lot of kids today are missing that. So that's one big difference I see with kids in this generation versus older ones is that that lack of freedom. Why

Vance Crowe [00:03:38] Did that happen? I mean, like, I grew up in a small town and I feel like I had like a 1950s upbringing. Yeah. But when I see now, if you see a kid wandering around in your neighborhood without parents, people are like, well, the police, what's going on? Yeah.

Tim Jordan [00:03:50] Right. What happened? Well, I think a big piece of it was every generation has had their own fears about different things. And I think this generation's fear starting 20, 30 years ago, there's a couple, but one of 'em is my kid's gonna get abducted because we went to the, you know, the milk carton thing and nine 11 different things happened, which scared people. And if you didn't have a phone on nine 11, I couldn't get ahold of somebody. And so there's this sense of I need to be ahold of my kids 24 7. And if I text my kid and I don't get a response within a minute, I'm gonna call the cops and I'm not, they're gonna be looking for them. There's a fear that fear that it's a dangerous, it's more dangerous than it used to be. It, even though data and research and would show that it's not, when it comes to things like kidnappings abductions, it's not worse than it was 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago. But we think it is because something happens and then bam, 24 7 for a week, that's all we hear about.

Vance Crowe [00:04:44] Yeah. That instant ability to be able to get ahold of somebody creates like a, a sort of tension or some, some kind of like rope where you feel like, if I can't get ahold of you Yeah.

Tim Jordan [00:04:56] There's

Vance Crowe [00:04:57] Like, something's wrong or Yeah.

Tim Jordan [00:05:00] I'm even seeing women, I counsel women in college besides grade school, middle school, high school, and a lot of them still have chips in their phone. Their parents are still doing that 360 thing. They know where their, their, their college sophomore is at every second of every day. I'm thinking that's, I, you, you go away to college to get away, to have some space to grow and think and expand and redefine yourself. And it's harder to do that. I think if mommy and daddy are constantly on you or and calling and, you know, I've talked to a lot of, of college teachers, the professors, and they say 30, 40 years ago, I never got one call from a parent. Today. I get 'em every day.

Vance Crowe [00:05:39] Yeah. The co whole college experience I think is radically changed. Even from when I was like, if you had a cell phone when I was in college, you were like a real rich kid or your parents were really hovering. But now can you even imagine a college kid without one?

Tim Jordan [00:05:54] Can you imagine a, a middle schooler without one?

Vance Crowe [00:05:56] I don't know. Is that when they get 'em

Tim Jordan [00:05:58] Earlier? They're like, we just did a weekend retreat last weekend. These are girls who are nine to 12 mostly and about three, four, some headphones. And about a fourth of them are on social media already, which is really scary.

Vance Crowe [00:06:12] So you are a counselor or you counsel young girls, but you are, you started off as a medical doctor,

Tim Jordan [00:06:18] Right?

Vance Crowe [00:06:19] How did you get into this world?

Tim Jordan [00:06:20] I, my original background is I'm a pediatrician and because of a lot of different things, I have lots of points in the line. I, I had an interest in, in child development and those kinds of things. So after my residency, instead of going out into practice, I did a two year fellowship in something called Developmental and Behavioral Pediatrics, which is a mouthful, but, and it can look like a lot of things. But what it looked like for me, I did pediatrics for about two years, general pediatrics, trying to, to do both for a while. And after a couple years I was in a small town south of St. Louis, my partner and I were getting hammered and I had no free time. And back then it was a beeper, so you couldn't just like call somebody like I had to go find a payphone or find a phone. And we had three little kids by that time. So I thought, this is not the lifestyle I want. So I, we moved back up to St. Louis and I started doing my developmental behavioral pediatrics. So I started counseling kids about 30, 35 years. Somewhere in their early thirties. Years ago, back late, late late eighties.

Vance Crowe [00:07:20] In the late eighties. Was it, I mean, when I was a kid, people go into counseling meant like, whoa, something's, something's off with you. I don't feel like it has that sense now. Was that your experience?

Tim Jordan [00:07:30] Yes. It's, it's, I think people are more open, not everybody, but I think most people are, and they're, and the kids are suffering more today. That's one of the things people say. What's different? What are you seeing different in your counseling practice or our retreats? Our summer camps, one of things that I see, 'cause I work with girls, is that the level of anxiety has gone way up. And the level of pressure on girls and stresses on girls has gone way up. And that then looks, ends up looking like sometimes depression or anxiety or not being able to sleep very well, or problems with self-confidence with their image, friendship issues, drama. But I think the pressures and the stresses is much different than it was 30 years ago.

Vance Crowe [00:08:07] So what it, that seems like bizarre when I hear it out loud. Like the pressure is higher on girls today. Why They don't, they don't have to go into the coal mines. They don't have to, you know. Well,

Tim Jordan [00:08:15] It's a different kind of pressure.

Vance Crowe [00:08:17] Okay.

Tim Jordan [00:08:17] For instance, today girls there, there's an author, Stephen Hinshaw wrote a book called The Triple Bind. It's probably 10, 15 years old, but it was, it was a good framework and he talked about three pressures that that girls experience and women. The first one is that girls today 2022 are still supposed to be really good at all. The traditional girl things, female kinds of things. IE they're supposed to be cute and pretty and sexy and thin and really good at relationships and empathetic and nurturing. They're supposed to be good at all that still. But in this day and age, they're also supposed to be really good at all the traditional male things or boy things. So they're supposed to be at the top of their class getting straight A's. They're supposed to be playing club sports and winning college scholarships with athletics. They're supposed to be ambitious and driven and aggressive and be willing to step on people to get to the top and lean in, you know, to become a CEO of a Fortune 50 company. And the third leg of that triple vine was, and they're supposed to grow up to become women who are still pretty and thin and sexy and hot, married to this perfect guy and be a perfect wife to two point and mother to 2.5 perfect children. But she's also supposed to be the CEO of a top 50 co company and making lots of money and working hard and rising to the top. And she's supposed to take care of all the home stuff still. So she's in charge of the relationships, cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents, neighbors, school stuff, school relationships. She's supposed to have all that and do all that and keep it all together and make it look easy and effortless.

Tim Jordan [00:09:53] And if I ask a group of women, which I've done hundreds of times in an audience, how many of you feel that pressure? They all raise their hands. And if it's a group of high school seniors, which I've done dozens and dozens of times, how many of you feel that pressure? They all raise their hand. That's what they're absorbing.

Vance Crowe [00:10:12] And in the past, you think the pressure more was, hey, you've gotta grow up to be able to find a good husband, keep a good house, and you know, raise children, that sort of thing. Yeah. But now it's just tripled with nothing taken away.

Tim Jordan [00:10:28] Yes. And and we've created all these really unrealistic standards like that, that last, last leg of the triple bind of becoming this perfect mother, perfect wife with this incredible job. All that we've created, this standard that girls feel like they need to live up to that. And it's really hard to live up. It's impossible to live up to that. It's not hard, it's impossible to live up to all that. But they feel the pressure.

Vance Crowe [00:10:50] Yeah. I feel myself because I see so many things of like girl power and women can do anything and I I, I naturally feel like men are being left out in this. Right. And it's probably just 'cause my own orientation, but as you're describing it, I'm like, wait, that's true. And in fact, all of the things you're describing are my wife, you know, she was a Yeah. Collegiate level athlete, tried out for the Olympics, excellent student in aerospace engineering, runs the family, manages the relationships. I, I, I guess I really hadn't thought of it in this way. Yeah.

Tim Jordan [00:11:21] And, and girls are feeling that earlier and earlier. And can I tell you about another, another important question? Important pressure. And I talk a lot about this to parents and to kids. I feel like we've, we've created this one path fits all for where you're supposed to end up. And so if I ask the room of parents are kids, this line of questions, how many of you want your kids to get good grades in school? Oh, everybody's hand. Why do you want your kids to get good grades in grade school, middle school, they can get into good high school. How many of you want your kids to get straight a's good grades in high school? All the hands go, why? Why? And they don't say anymore. And kids don't say, because I want to get into college. They say to get into a top college. That's, that's one difference. That, that's a simple word, but it's a important word. Now say, why do you want your kids to go to top college? They can get a good job. Why do you want your kids to get a good job so they can make a lot of money? That is the line of, that all kids are supposed to march on. There's this one single path that everybody's supposed to march on even though that path doesn't fit for a lot of people.

Vance Crowe [00:12:23] When, when do you think it became so like a monocrop of, of what, what the gold standard is or what the top is?

Tim Jordan [00:12:32] I think it's changed in the last 20, 30 years. There's, we've, we've amped up everything, you know, there. It's hard to get into colleges that, that's one of the things that amped it up. We started accelerating these sports programs. I just, I just re did a podcast. It's coming out soon about why and when youth sports went off the rails, because today it's a $19.5 billion business. That didn't happen yesterday. That's, that's, that's been going up in the last especially 20 years. It didn't start that way, but it's been amping up since like 1900. But it's really amped up in the last 20 or 30 years. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:13:05] You know, that's a good point. The, the sports orientation to me feels like it is filling the role that church played for a while. Like when I was growing up in my 1950s town, you couldn't do any sporting events on Wednesday night because every everybody was doing sun. You, you youth group Yeah. The church stuff. And then certainly on Sunday you could never do that.

Tim Jordan [00:13:26] Yeah, right.

Vance Crowe [00:13:26] Like only, only the kids that were so driven by sports that they didn't love God enough were, were doing that. Right. And now I hear my friends that have the teenage kids or even younger than that, they spend all weekend, every weekend for the next, you know, 48 outta 52 weeks of the year doing sporting events.

Tim Jordan [00:13:44] And that's driven, I think, in my experience by a fear in parents that my kid's gonna get behind. My kid's not gonna keep up. So because, and I, I, I tell parents all the time back in the fifties, I'm, I'm 68 as of tomorrow. Back in the fifties we heard a lot about keeping up with the Joneses. And what that meant was, oh my neighbor's got a new a, a product like a dishwasher or a new car.

Vance Crowe [00:14:09] New car. Yeah.

Tim Jordan [00:14:10] Or a new appliance or something. So I gotta go get one 'cause I gotta keep up with the Joneses next door today. Everybody's got stuff. People with no money have, you know, $150 tennis shoes and they haves latest iPhone today. It's not about keeping up with the Joneses in that way. It's about keeping up with the Joneses children because you look across the street and you see their, your your, your daughter's friend over there and she's going to to three soccer camps this summer. Oh my God. She goes to three soccer camps and she's getting what she has professional coaching twice a week. And oh, she got onto this club team. So if I don't give my kid these same kinds of things, they're gonna get behind. If they get behind, they're not gonna be able to make their college their high school school team. They don't make their high school team. These parents can have this. It's this, this fervor this intense fear about I've gotta give my kid an edge. If I heard that once, I've heard it a thousand times in the last 10 years, I wanna give my kids an edge. I wanna give 'em a leg up. That's what childhood has, has become is giving your kids a leg up, not only so that they can compete, but they can be the best and better than and kids absorb that pressure.

Vance Crowe [00:15:16] So just last week I interviewed two teachers from the Waldorf School and close to the end of the interview, I, I didn't exactly know how to ask them, but I was like, you two are a little bit weird. Right? You're a little unusual, right? Yeah. And at first they were kinda like, I don't know. And then they both accepted that they, they were weird and they were like, but isn't isn't everyone unique in that way? Right. And they started talking about how one of the central core tenets of the Waldorf is to enable kids to figure out what it is that they actually want. And you think about that and that actually is pretty rare, right? Yeah. Because in the current system, whether you're talking anything from regular education to, you know, Montessori, not, not way out here, the Yeah. The Waldorf, but the, that really is focused on getting ahead as opposed to finding some inner voice that the child has that wants to be manifest. Right.

Tim Jordan [00:16:09] And that inner voice doesn't get heard because you're on this path. And so if you're at a school, then when I see girls in my counseling practice sometimes who are in high school, oftentimes in high school I'll say, do you know what you, do you have any idea what you're gonna do after high school? And it's really funny 'cause they'll look at me like, well you idiot, I'm gonna go to college. I'll say, whoa, why do you wanna go to college? I act dumb. Why do you wanna go to college? And then I get one of mainly two answers. One answer is so I can get into good, good college and get a good job, make a lot of money, which I know where that came from. And the other three fourths of them go, well, I, they have no answer. 'cause nobody's ever asked them, why do you want to go to college? Why do you wanna play soccer? What kind of grades do you want? We, we talk a lot about how do I motivate my kids? And I always say, that's the wrong question. A better question might be, how do I help my kids figure out their own intrinsic, get in touch with their own intrinsic internal motivation. That's always way more healthy for them. And if they, if they're doing things for their own reasons and they have the autonomy to choose and all that they do way better. They're more engaged, there's more fulfillment. That's, that's how you get. But we don't ask that question enough because we're all in this path.

Vance Crowe [00:17:21] Yeah. In this podcast we talk a lot about this concept, the Damon, right? Like this inner, inner spirit that you don't really control, right? You, you like, it's a voice, it tells you, Hey, you should do this thing, or Hey, you should not do this thing. And it's really, if you're in touch with it, it's really loud. It sounds to me like you're saying parents aren't really pushing their kids to find out what that enter Damon is,

Tim Jordan [00:17:45] Right? I, yes, I, because I think because of that fear. And so if I don't get my kid in these classes and get an enrichment classes, and this is not just wealthy people, this is kids across the board.

Vance Crowe [00:17:57] How do people, how would a parent start to get a child in touch with that inner voice? You

Tim Jordan [00:18:03] Ask more questions. We were at a retreat about a year ago, and we were talking to the dads, my wife and I, about this concept of, of intrinsic motivation all. And I said, it's important to start asking your kids questions. Like, well, why do you like stuff so much? So anyway, there's one. So anyway, the girls came in, these are girls who are like seven to nine. These are young girls and they were sitting with their dads. And so I, so I said, let me, let me just show you what we were talking about before. So there was a girl in the front row who was really spunky. So I said, what's your favorite thing to do? And she said, I love to dance. So I said, oh, why do you like to dance so much? And she said, well, you know, when you first go out there, they tell you what to do and you have to kind of do what they say. Then once I'm into the, the dance, I start doing it what I want, I start to create my own moves. And you could see her just like getting all jacked up. And she, and then she stopped and she said, I love being in control. And her dad was sitting behind her going, never heard that before, because he is never asked. We, my wife and I were at a, a friend's house, oh, about six, eight years ago, having dinner. And their daughter, who was about 12 ish at the time was late because she's a, she was a top level gymnast and that's one of the most intense sports, right? So she goes from after school, three 30, has practice to like eight 30 at night, then comes home. So she comes home, we're about done with dinner, and she sat down just looking exhausted. So we, I said, how often do you practice? She said, well, Monday through Friday from three 30 to eight 30, then we practice Saturday morning for four, three hours and then Sunday and plus these tournaments and all that.

Tim Jordan [00:19:38] I said, wow, that's a lot of time. I said, why do you do it? What do you like about it so much? And she stopped for a second. She actually was thinking for herself, God forbid. She said, you know, I think, and then her dad quickly interjected. He said, oh,

Vance Crowe [00:19:53] Hey

Tim Jordan [00:19:53] Honey, go show the Jordan's your hardware. And we're like, what? She said, show the Jordan's your hardware. She's like, dad. He's like, come on. She's like, fine. She said, follow me. So we, we literally got up from the dinner table, walked down the hallway to her bedroom and she showed I'm

Vance Crowe [00:20:08] Cringing, showed

Tim Jordan [00:20:09] Wall to wall trophies, blue ribbons. That's her hardware. That's what the dad was focused on. And a lot of parents are focused on. So we said, that's what your, that's what your dad's deal is. I said, why do you like it? And she stopped. She said, my favorite thing about gymnastics is the floor routine. I said, why? She said, 'cause I go out there, I'm the only one. I'm standing on the corner of that mat and all eyes are on me. I take some deep breaths and I'm, I'm doing that routine. I'm totally in the moment. I'm totally focused and all eyes are on me. I love to entertain. So she's getting again, excited again. She's saying, this is why I love gymnastics. It's not about these ribbons and trophies. That's whatever. It's more about that feeling I get. So if we can ask kids questions, why, why do you love what you're doing? Why do you like to draw? Why do you like to play soccer? I ask the girls all the time, what kind of grades do you want in school? A's like, dummy, why do you want a's similar response? I say, you might wanna start thinking for yourself, if this is about not wanting to disappoint your parents, if you're getting good grades in school or playing soccer or anything to please your parents, then that's not a very good healthy motivation. That's not gonna last very long. 'cause you're not doing it for you,

Vance Crowe [00:21:25] For you. So when you're counseling one-on-one with girls, whether they're teenagers or in their, they're in college. After you ask that question, you know, what do you wanna do? Where does the conversation go? What, what's the next level after? What is it that you're motivated by to

Tim Jordan [00:21:41] Start thinking what, even, even in that visit, they might start to uncover, you know, like, like that girl did that day, like gymnastics. Because I say, and I'll say that's, you knows how excited you got when you start talking about all that. That's your intrinsic internal motivation. That's always gonna be with you. You don't need people patting you on the back and praising you to keep you going because that'll keep you going because you love to do it. So I I, I think that's, that's one thing. The other thing is I encourage them to have quiet time alone. Quiet time at home regularly to sort of check inside. Like, how am I doing? Like what do I want? Do I, if I wanted to go to college, why might that be? What's my motivation? What's what, what are my interests? What are my passions to start thinking, not just thinking, but tuning into their intuition, their gut, their heart so that they, they can start making decisions based upon not pleasing you or not disappointing you. Or because everybody else in my school goes to college. Because I don't know, it feels right to me.

Vance Crowe [00:22:39] It seems to me that if when someone starts listening to their inner voice, they start doing things that are out of the norm, which has gotta cause kick a lot of challenge into a family that is

Tim Jordan [00:22:50] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:22:51] You know, high functioning under this, this pattern of this is achievement. Yes.

Tim Jordan [00:22:55] There's an old expression that the, the nail that sticks up gets hammered down. So sometimes it does mean they go off on a different tangent. I I had one girl several years ago who, who goes to an all-girl high school here in St. Louis. Very intense, very academic. And she, she didn't, she had decided that she didn't want to go to college. She really wanted to go to cosmetology school. She wanted to do hair. I said to her, why do you wanna do that? What's your interest? She said, she said, I am the happiest on days like homecoming or prom. 'cause all my friends come over and I do their hair, I do their makeup. And I said, I've also done makeup and stuff for the plays at school. So I love doing that. I guess it's

Vance Crowe [00:23:32] Art, it's

Tim Jordan [00:23:33] My way of being. It's it's art and it's also service. It's being there for people in a service way. I said, that's awesome. So when she told the school, I'm not going to college, I'm going to the St. Louis, wherever, cosmetology school, the school almost blew up number one. And when she crossed the stage, this is a true story. When she crossed the stage for her graduation, they didn't say, here's Susie, she's going to the St. Louis School of Cosmetology. They said, here's Susie. She was accepted into these three colleges. Oh. Because there's so much pressure from parents, from the school, from the educational system, from colleges, that this is the path I, when I ask girls, what percentage of people in this country today between the ages of 25 and 35 have a four year degree? Like what would you guess, what's the percentage of people who have a college degree?

Vance Crowe [00:24:20] Four

Tim Jordan [00:24:20] Year degree.

Vance Crowe [00:24:21] 25%.

Tim Jordan [00:24:22] Yeah. You're, you're, yeah, you're right. Most pe most of the girls, when you're close, most of the girls say 80, 60. I say down, they say, I, this is yesterday with a girl, 50 40. I said, it's usually in the thirties. 31, 33, 35. It bounces a little bit, but it's usually about a third. And that's why I say, I'm not saying don't go to college, but I am saying it's not for everybody. There isn't a one size fits all for everybody, even though that's how we're treating all of you.

Vance Crowe [00:24:52] Yeah. When, so I do these things called Legacy Interviews. So people sit in here and we talk about their lives. And a lot of them are women in their sixties to their eighties. And they described going to college and being among the first generation to go to college. But all of them are very clear. I needed enough skills so that if something happened to my husband, I wouldn't have to be in the poor house. Yeah. But that ultimately I was going to get married and I, my income would only be part of what we're doing. Yeah. But this does not seem to be the direction things are headed in now.

Tim Jordan [00:25:22] Well I tell girls, young women, I say you need skills after you graduate from high school. You're not really trained to do anything. Even when you go get outta college. Most employers say, I gotta retrain 'em anyway. So I say, so you need education of some kind. You need some skill building of some kind, but it doesn't have to be college. There's a lot of ways to get that. And also you have to just start to figure out what are my aptitudes, what am I good at? What am I passionate about? What are my interests? 'cause that will start to lead you towards something that, and then that'll tell you what kind of training that you need. But it's not all, it's not always college.

Vance Crowe [00:25:58] Yeah. In my own anecdotal experience, I know a lot of young men right now in their early twenties that didn't go to college. And that's no problem. Some of them work with me. We do stuff that, that's no big deal. But I think it would be a lot harder for a young girl not to go to college at this point than it would be for a young man. It seems like the world is not set up for women not to go to college.

Tim Jordan [00:26:22] Well, it depends upon, one of our campers is a senior in high school, or actually she just graduated and she's in welding school in a small town about an hour from here. She's the only girl slash woman. And she's a free spirit. She's, she should have been born in the sixties. She's got, you know, different colored hair every, every few weeks. She's, she's awesome. Incredible and powerful. So she's in there with these guys learning how to weld. But I think there's less room for that, like what you're saying.

Vance Crowe [00:26:51] Yeah. I mean, I think if you meet a girl and you know, down in the coffee shop and you say, what are you up to? And they say, well, I'm, you know, dropped outta school or something. It's with guys, it's, oh, okay, you wanna do sales? You know, like, what do you want? What do you wanna do? Right. Yeah. There it does seem, I hadn't thought of it. In fact, there's a lot of things you're saying here that I, I find myself, because of the direction culture has gone with, oh girl power and girl, you can do anything you wanna do. And then you go and you look at the statistics, right? Where people will say, oh, the wage gap, women don't earn as much as men. And then you go and dig into it deeper and it's more complicated. So I find myself being very reluctant to girls need more of a special place until I'm talking to you. And I realize, I think they do need some special treatment here relative to just boys. But it's not in the way that society is telling us that they need special treatment.

Tim Jordan [00:27:47] Yeah. Yes. And I, you know, one of the things I, I tell 'em, I, I developed years ago, something I call my dot theory and that looks like I, I will, I'll put some dots on the page and I'll say, have you ever done one of those connect the dot drawings? Did you ever do one of those when you were here?

Vance Crowe [00:28:01] Sure. Yeah.

Tim Jordan [00:28:01] Right. So when you'd look at the dots and I'd say, what is that picture? You're like, I have no idea. It's just a bunch of dots. So you start to connect them 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and eventually enough dots would connect. You go, oh, it's gonna be Santa Claus. Oh, it's Santa Claus. Once all the dots were connected. So I use that as a metaphor to say, you don't need to know when you're 13 or 17 or even 22, what your life career purpose thing is. Like that thing you're gonna be doing when you're 40, 50, whatever. It's like, this is my thing. You don't need to know that. Even though they think they should. And we were getting, it used to be, I, I, 20 years ago, I heard that in high school girls. And then I started hearing it in the last five or so years from middle school girls. Now I'm hearing it now sometimes in grade school. Girls in our retreats, we had a retreat last spring. These are girls who were in third, fourth, fifth grade. And a bunch of 'em were talking about how stressed they were. Okay. Like, okay, you're third, fourth, fifth grade. We said, what? So what are the things that you're stressed about? And guess what the, what what the most, excuse me, common stressor was, it wasn't friends or family or school. Those are, those were some places. But the biggest stressor was college and my career. They're, they're here. Like I, I remember at one time I was running a group for middle school girls. I had a lot of eighth grade girls and they were talking, this is about, hmm, probably eight years ago. They were talking about how stressed they were. I was so stressed out, said, so what's so stressful? You would think they would say, oh, high school's coming up, going to a new school, going to high school.

Tim Jordan [00:29:35] It was college. I said, why are you so stressed out about college when you're in eighth grade? He said, well, we have to pick our classes for our, our first semester in high school. So we've sat down with the school counselor and she was saying things like, well, what do you wanna be when you grow up? 'cause you wanna be an accountant. You should be taking algebra one when you're in eighth grade. So you can be doing geometry when you're in freshman year. So, you know, so by the time you're a junior, you can take pre-calc and you can take AP calc. And it goes like, what? I have no idea. I I hadn't even started high school yet. And you're telling me I need to pick my career. And that's not an isolated incident. They're, they're absorbing that all over the place. Like I should know, I should have. If you ask girls in high school, they, they feel, they all feel behind 'cause they don't know what they wanna do. I say, well if you all feel behind, what does that indicate to you? Yeah. Then you're not behind. No, nobody's behind. It's okay. So I tell them, your job isn't to know that final picture. Your job is just to be open to dots and dots to me. Or any experience that crosses your path that you feel drawn to. That goes back to the intuition thing. Like it might, it I, that sounds like it might be fun or I don't know, I just feel like I wanna do that. Or it just seems right or you don't do it because someday I want to be a airplane mechanic. You do it because it just seems like the right thing to do now. And if you do that dot, then another one comes along and then you do another one, another one. And then months and years goes by until some point you'll be able to look back and go, oh, ah, now I see how, oh, it's interesting how all that now kind of comes together.

Tim Jordan [00:31:06] So that's in my experience or any experience that crosses your path that you feel drawn to do. It could be a class in school, it could be a job, it could be some travel, it could be reading a biography, watching a documentary, having a cup of coffee with one of your parents' friends who's in an industry. You think that might be kind of fun to do. It's just experiences that pop up and heck, it can be totally unrelated going rock climbing, anything like that. You might think, what's that to do with, well, at some point you'll be able to look back. There's a, there's a woman who was one of our campers years ago. Now she's married and has two kids. But anyway, when she was went to college, I met her when she was in eighth grade. 'cause she was a wild child. She was drinking and partying and all over the place and she was just one of those free spirits. And so she started coming to our camps and she was incredible. One of the most powerful young women I'd ever met. And she ended up becoming one of our camp counselors. And then she went to college and she got a degree in psychology. And now she owns a, an office in another state and she's got like five employees. But what one of the things she said to me was when I went to college, she went to Mizzou, university of Missouri. And the first semester she was like, oh my God, all these people are getting wasted. That's all they wanna do. And she'd kind of been through that. She was kind of over that hill. So she, what, what she did was she joined a club, it was a rock climbing club. She loved the outdoors. And so they would go on weekends down to state parks and things. And they would, they would repel. And they were, they were doing like real rock climbing where you put the, you know, the things in, you have to belay each other and all that.

Tim Jordan [00:32:41] She said that was so valuable. I learned how to work on a team. I learned how to trust people. I learned how to, for them to trust me and for me to be on it and be focused. 'cause they were, their life was in my hand. So that was the dot for her that I think helps her a lot in her business now running a business. So I tell girls, just be open to dots and when they come do it. And just trust, this is the hard part. Trust that your life will unfold for you. You don't need to force it. And I think we're teaching girls and probably boys to force it with this OnePath thing and other, all depression and all that. It's like they're all stressed out. Instead of saying, relax, you're 14, you're 16, you're 18, it's okay, you're not behind. Just keep being open to experiences and then, and trust yourself and you'll, and you'll figure it out.

Vance Crowe [00:33:29] There's a paradox in what you're saying, which is, doesn't get talked about very often, particularly around women, is that they do have a clock. And that is for how long you can have children for. And I know in my own personal case, I was, I, I feel like, and it was my responsibility, but I feel like I was given kind of a peter pan sort of, you can be young forever and whenever you want to grow up to be an adult, then you can do it. Then you can have kids. But that's not true. And it's especially not true for women, right? Yeah. If you start pushing that age up, you know, the average age for a college educated woman to have a child is something like 29 or 30. You get much further along and you become a geriatric mom. Yeah.

Tim Jordan [00:34:10] So

Vance Crowe [00:34:10] There is an actual time pressure there, but it's one that's very uncomfortable to talk about now.

Tim Jordan [00:34:16] Well, you said before we've, we've been bombarding girls with the message. You can have it all be it all and have it all. And, but unfortunately, I think the culture says this is what having it all means that perfect woman with the perfect 2.0 all that. And so what I say to the girls or young women is you have to define what having it all means for you. And not, not be so driven by what everybody else is doing or what the culture says or whatever. It's about figuring out you. And if, if it's, if about, if it's about having children, maybe probably about you and your spouse, putting your heads together and saying, what do we want? And or when. And they would need to make some choices about things b based on that. I know I, I interviewed an author for my podcast. Her name is Meg Jay. And she wrote a book, hmm, probably 10 years ago called The Defining Decade. It's an interesting book. 'cause she looks at the twenties because a lot of young people are like, oh, you just blow it off. Right? You become a barista and you party and you smoke pot and you, and you live in your parents' basement and play video games and just, and then when your thirties kick in, now I've gotta kind of get going. And she makes a really good case with a lot of research that says that's not true. That your twenties really are a really important decade for setting the stage for the rest of your life. Doesn't mean you have to have your perfect job or the, you know, all that. It just means those experiences that you hopefully can have in your twenties start to point you towards who you are. She, she, there's a word she uses, I guess it's two words, it's called identity capital.

Tim Jordan [00:35:48] You can start going back in your life looking and trying to get a sense of, based upon all these experiences, what have I learned about me? Like I said before, what are my aptitudes, what are my interests? What are my passions? What, what turns my crank? What, what do I do where I get totally lost in, I get in that flow kind of thing. If I can start to identify that and different jobs I've had, what I like about what kind of people wear inside, outside, you can start to put together that, you know, in your twenties to, that helps to guide you towards, this is what I really wanna do with my life.

Vance Crowe [00:36:18] Yeah. I, and that, that being the operative phase, this is what I really want to do in these Legacy Interviews. Towards the end I ask people, what was the most difficult lesson to learn? That was the most valuable to know? And if you're a woman over 65, about 80% of them say the same thing. Some version of the same thing, which is I wish I would've learned earlier that I didn't need to care what other people thought of me.

Tim Jordan [00:36:41] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:36:42] And you find these women who didn't realize that until they were 55, 60 some, something like that. And the, the what people thought could be what my mother wanted for me. Yeah. It could be what the nebulous kind of society wanted. But you see that this is a, a thing that plagues women like, like and was not an easy thing to overcome. So it's likely the thing that you're just as, as you're going further into the description, it's, it's the pressure, but then amped up by our culture being so much more attuned to this. Yeah.

Tim Jordan [00:37:14] And even though it's the year 2022, girls are still absorbing the, the old good girl conditioning. We do this in our camps and retreats. Sometimes we'll say, let's make a list of all the qualities of a good girl. And a good girl is the kind of girl all your parents and your teachers and adults want you to be. And so they make a list that would, it's scary. It seems like be perfect. Don't stand out, wait your turn, be polite, be nurturing, put other people's needs before your own all, you know, on and on and on. And so they're still absorbing that. And so it makes it hard sometimes to say, wait a minute, that's not what I want. You know, that's what my parents want. That's what, that's whoever wants, but what do I want? And so we, even today we're, I think girls are still fighting that because on the one hand you're supposed to be this aggressive, assertive, leaning into the CEO thing, but on the other hand, you're still supposed to be polite and kinda lead from behind and don't be too out there. Because if you're too out there in the workplace, you'll get the B word attached to you and they won't say, wow, what a great leader. They, for women, they say the B word. And so there's this mixed message thing that they start absorbing when they're girls that carries right into adulthood. So I, I tell 'em, you need to define for yourself what, what having it all means to you. And then, then you can start to plot out. Well then if I wanna have a family, then I need to make sure I understand the biology of when it's it best to have kids. And I need to start making some decisions about like when, when I, my, my, I had seven siblings growing up and my dad was in the car business.

Tim Jordan [00:38:49] He was like a, like the manager of a, of a agency. He was gone all the time and, you know, trying to, you know, pay for eight kids and all that. And so one of the things I decided as a kid, I, I very consciously remember just saying to myself, when I, when I'm an adult and I have kids, I will be there for them. And so early in my career, I made a lot of choices based upon I wanna be there when they come home from school, I wanna coach their teams. It wasn't perfect, but I I, I got to spend a lot of time because I made it important. And I think it did kind of, it probably curtailed my career a little bit in the early going, but I didn't care. But I cared more. I wanted to have more balance. I wanted to be able to have time. I love kids anyway. Obviously I work with kids every day and I wanted to be there for my kids too.

Vance Crowe [00:39:33] Were you able to avoid becoming the dreaded helicopter parent?

Tim Jordan [00:39:37] Yes. We, I think we, my wife and I both were very clear about we're gonna give them a lot of voice, a lot of say so in our home, because none of, in my generation, none of us had a voice. And not none of us, most kids didn't have a voice. We were supposed to be seen and not heard. And so I, I want that different, I didn't wanna have an overpowering, you know, model. And so we, we taught parenting classes for about 15 or 20 years, a long time ago. And that helped us to stay on top of ourselves to make sure that first of all, we're gonna give our kids a voice. We're gonna give our kids a lot of decision making at home, but when we make decisions together as a family, then we're gonna hold 'em accountable. We're not gonna give in and we're not gonna bribe them for grades and stuff. We're gonna make sure that they're self-motivated and that they're, that they're responsible and they know they're gonna be held accountable.

Vance Crowe [00:40:23] When you think about like what a parent wants for their kids, that might be intrinsic, right? You know, you probably, it's, it's not, maybe some people not, but like, you don't want your kids to do drugs, right? Or at least not until their brains are formulated enough that they can make those choices responsibly. How does a parent, once they find out that their daughter has, has started experimenting in this area, how do you even, how do you bring that back and not alienate your kids and push 'em out the door?

Tim Jordan [00:40:51] Well, first I'd wanna know why, because sometimes with any behavior I want, I, I don't wanna just go right to, well then do this or do that. It's like, well, I wonder why they're doing it. 'cause once I figure out why, then, then I can address that. Like, gimme, gimme an example.

Vance Crowe [00:41:06] I didn't. But if I had, it would've been because I am highly open, right? Like I am, I am extremely open to new experiences. And I had the fear of God in me that that's why I didn't do it with drugs. But I, it wouldn't have had like a, I'm trying to escape my parents or something. Like maybe it would've, maybe that's why I didn't do it, I guess.

Tim Jordan [00:41:25] Well, maybe, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm not saying you should say kids, do whatever you want. That's not, that's not how my wife and I parented our kids. But I think I saw a girl recently who she's in high school and she was, and she lost her virginity. And I, I, we, so we, and she was talking about it. And so I, I said, you know, why do you think you did it? Because then like within two weeks the boy moved on, which is not an uncommon story. She said I, and so she was feeling used and all that. So I said, why do you think that you did it? And she said, well, she said, I've had a lot of problems making friends and keeping friends. And so when this guy showed attention and, and he wanted to spend time with me, I, it, it filled me up. It made me feel like, wow, he notices me. I feel more attractive. I feel like wanted, I have never, I hadn't felt that before. So I, I was, she was vulnerable to giving in. So there's reasons I, my wife and I years ago were called into a boys' high school here in town because there was about eight freshman boys who had gotten in trouble on a Saturday night. They were breaking into cars and stealing stuff. And so it was kind of funny 'cause they, this is back when we used to see boys and this actually, maybe it was like more like 15 or 20 years ago. But anyway, and so instead of just expelling them, they said, let's have 'em come in on a Saturday like breakfast club and do something to rehabilitate. I don't know. So he said, okay, we'll do it. It might be fun. So, and my wife and I went in with a couple of our camp counselors and, and so the first thing we did was just said, what, what, what happened?

Tim Jordan [00:42:58] So when kids make mistakes, I like for them to go back to that decision moment. Should I or shouldn't I, should I smoke pot or should I not, should I break into this car or not? There's always that moment where an alarm goes off and we go, I don't know, you might wanna think about this. And all of us have that alarm. So we stop. I always talk with, with those boys. We did, I do it with girls in my practice. I'll say, how do you experience your alarm? We're like, then they think, they say, well, my heart starts to pound. I get this funny feeling in my stomach. Or my chest gets tight or I start to sweat. So it's like, great, your body is just saying you might wanna think about this before you leap. You know, don't jump or don't leap before you, before you think about. Now see, in that moment, did your alarm go off? Yes. Great. Why do you think you ignored it? That's a really important question.

Vance Crowe [00:43:49] Yeah. Because you're in a paradox there. Because sometimes your heart beats faster and your stomach churns and you're about to do something you should do or you need to do. That's difficult. And so figuring out exactly when that's coming up and how to listen to it,

Tim Jordan [00:44:04] Practice. So like with those boys, it, it was, it was really interesting because all the boys said the same thing. They were, they were freshmen. They, and it was the first semester and they didn't have any friends yet. All of them were sitting at home on the weekends alone a lot feeling kinda disconnected, kind of lonely. And then somebody called and said, Hey, you wanna walk around the park? And so I think a bunch of 'em knew, okay, I think I know what this means. And so then their decision was, do I sit at home like this lonely loser, nerd, whatever, or do I go and do it? Okay, I'll go and do it. The second decision point was when the first person, you know, reached, stole something from the car, then another alarm went off and they ignored it again. Why'd you ignore it? If I, if I didn't do it with them, I would probably never be called again. They, they would make fun of me as being lame and whatever. And I have no friends and so whatever, I'll do it. So then the idea is, now that you know why you did that, now it's about what will you do about that? So they all make commitments about, I'm gonna join a sport this, this winter. I'm gonna join some clubs. I'm gonna do some things to, you know, to, to start to be more part of the school. 'cause then I won't be so lonely and vulnerable on a Saturday night.

Vance Crowe [00:45:16] And, and this introspection that you're describing, you think actually works and carries like

Tim Jordan [00:45:21] With practice. With

Vance Crowe [00:45:23] Practice, yeah.

Tim Jordan [00:45:23] They have to learn in those moments when they feel that feeling to stop themselves and say, I know what that means. Just means pause. Just like I, I saw a girl my, in my counseling practice yesterday who gets really anxious and she's upset and frustrated by it. And I said, first of all, your anxiety is there for a reason. Your amygdala, your, the, the feeling center of your brain. When it gets, when it gets triggered for some reason and, and that fear comes up, it's just your brain, which by the way for 150,000 years has done this. It's just your brain saying, you know what? You might wanna check it out. There could be a threat, there could be some danger. And it may not be, but there might be. I'm, I'm, and so just check it out, don't judge it. Just say thank you. I always, I say, thank you for warning me. Now my job is to check it out and say, do I really need to be scared or not? And I think the same way with those mistakes, they can learn to be aware of it and then learn to step back and say, okay, let just check it out for a moment to decide, you know, what's in my best interest right now. It maybe the first time when you're 12, that's not gonna be like, oh, I got it. Thank you for telling me that. I'll never make a mistake. But it's more like you can learn to do that over time and start, that's how your, you can help your prefrontal cortex learn to take care of you.

Vance Crowe [00:46:39] One of your clients, the way that you and I got put in touch was he had just gotten back from retreat and he was over the moon about how important your work was. And he was like, man, you, you really need to talk with this guy. What goes on at these retreats that would make the guy like your client, call me up and do that.

Tim Jordan [00:46:56] What goes on in Vegas is supposed to stay in Vegas?

Vance Crowe [00:47:00] Well,

Tim Jordan [00:47:00] It, it depends on the age group.

Vance Crowe [00:47:03] This was a teenage group, right? I think,

Tim Jordan [00:47:06] Yeah. So it's, if, if it's like middle school girls, that's different than grade school girls. But we, we do a couple things. We do, we do some team building things to start. Then we do some education with just the dads, but we also do some education with the dads and daughters together.

Vance Crowe [00:47:19] So this is a retreat for dads and daughters?

Tim Jordan [00:47:21] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:47:21] Okay.

Tim Jordan [00:47:22] And there's usually about 25, 30 pairs. They come from all over the place, which is really fun. And so there's some fun, they have activities. They, depending upon which place they may horseback ride, they, there's some places where they whitewater raft, there's different, there's ropes. They, this last weekend we were down in Big Cedar with a group of dads and their middle school girls and they did the, a ropes course together. So some of it's just fun together and some challenging things together. But some of it's also learning, like we talked about the amygdala with the dads and the, these middle school girls, because a lot of girls in middle school start getting anxious. So we want not only did, not only do we want them to understand why they get anxious, we want their dads to also have a sense of what is this about? Why does, why do girls get anxious? I, I don't know how to support her. So we gave them some ideas about this is why, and this is what your daughter can do and this is what you can do. So now you have a common language.

Vance Crowe [00:48:13] Yeah. It seems like just, just like we were saying before about counseling not being ordinary, you think about a dad having to make the decision. I want to go on a retreat with my daughter, has to have some level of like, I don't exactly know what I'm supposed to be doing here. Yeah. Some level of self-awareness. Right.

Tim Jordan [00:48:30] So we talked about the female brain, how it's different than the male brain. And when you tell me more about that. Well, for instance, when little girls are born, the centers in their brain for communication and connection and emotional sensitivity are bigger than, than a little boy's brain. So girls tend to talk earlier. Not every girl, but most girls.

Vance Crowe [00:48:51] Oh yeah. My daughter's that exactly. Always most. Yeah.

Tim Jordan [00:48:54] Also there, you know, and the reason, you know, people say, well, why, why is their brain different? What, you know, why do we evolve that way? Well, evolutionary psychologists, kind of people who studied that kind of thing think that, you know, ever since the dawn of man, when it was we were walking around foraging and these little things, there was much more dangerous. And so if you were in a group and you were connected, you had a much better chance of surviving. If you were a woman and you said something stupid or did something wrong and got kicked out of the tribe, the group

Vance Crowe [00:49:25] Big trouble,

Tim Jordan [00:49:25] Then you and your, your children would probably not survive. So that's why when I see girls who have lost a friend, it's like a death. And that's also why they have friends sometimes who treat 'em like, what should I say? I treat 'em badly. And they'll put up with it. And their dads are like, just move on. There's 30 other girls in your class. This girl's a jerk. Why are you hanging out with her? Because losing a friend is like a death. If I lose her, I may lose a group. If I lose a group, I might be alone. If I'm alone, it feels like a death.

Vance Crowe [00:49:56] And that is so different from boys. 'cause two boys don't get along. They get in a fight and they brush each other, you know, brush themselves off, and they're kind of their, their buddies. Oftentimes

Tim Jordan [00:50:04] Girls tend to attach more emotion to memories. And so like when we go to schools like we did today, we teach them skills to resolve conflicts peacefully. One of the ways that girls' brain is wired also a little different is they're wired to, to maintain social harmony for the reason I described before. So girls, women tend in general to avoid conflict like the plague. So if, if you did something to me, if, if we're girls, girls and you did something to me, it's really hard for me to go to you directly and say knock it off. I don't appreciate when you treat me that way. 'cause they're so afraid. Will she be mad at me? If she's mad at me? She might not wanna be my friend and I might lose her as a friend and she might take the whole group and start talking about me. That I'll be sitting at lunch by myself. Death that feels that deep. So they avoid it. So we teach them skills to resolve conflicts peacefully. And what's fascinating, especially if we're at a private school where, you know, the class size are smaller, they've been to the same kids. It might be say a fifth grade class, they, or a sixth grade class. They've been together for six years. When we say anybody want resolve a conflict and we we will show you how we we'll guide you. We get a volunteer, great. They come in the middle and nine times outta 10, they're not talking about something that happened yesterday on the playground. They talk about things that happened three years ago, literally, I'm not exaggerating. Three years ago you said this to me and it really hurt my feelings. And what girls do instead of handling it is look, is say, oh no big deal. It's fine. Just kidding, whatever. And they walk off like, no big deal. But there's still some emotional stuff attached to that memory. And they, they, they just, it's, it's there.

Tim Jordan [00:51:36] It's, it's, it's festers. And so then when I, I I may avoid you or I may talk about you behind your back. I may roll my eyes at you more. There's little things that I'll do to show you, I'm mad, but it's hard for me to go to you and say, let's handle this

Vance Crowe [00:51:51] And that. And therein lies where you're teaching them how to engage in a way that stays in line with their high agreeableness Yeah. But then allows them to resolve it.

Tim Jordan [00:52:00] We teach 'em how to do it peacefully instead of screaming at each other or doing it through drama. But

Vance Crowe [00:52:06] This is actually a profound conversation for me because I am, you know, if you look at the scale of, of zero to a hundred on agreeableness, you know, 100 being totally agreeable and zero, I'm a one, right? And so my way of interacting with people is always like, well, why don't we just go straight to the problem and deal with it? And I'm, I'm imagining my 2-year-old daughter being 12 and having that be the only advice that I could give her would be go deal with this thing as directly as possible. Yeah. Because it's the, it's the way that I naturally do things. Yeah.

Tim Jordan [00:52:38] And I'll I'll tell that girl, if you don't handle it, you don't have to handle it. But if you don't handle it, you probably will. There'll be some drama about it just because you're still angry or frustrated and you'll, it'll come, it'll leak out somehow. But, but if you really wanna have a really good, true friend, if, if you're a really good true friend and you are saying something that I don't like, it, it, I'm really sensitive about that. If, if I go to you and say, you know what, sometimes when you say this about whatever it, I don't know, it's, I don't like it, it it, I have a, I have a little si sister who's got that problem and I'm sensitive to that. So I really wish you wouldn't say that stuff around me. If you're a good friend, you'd say, I'm glad you told me I didn't know that. I'm sorry. I, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll knock it off. I'm glad you told me. If it's not a good friend, they'll, they'll be like, oh fine. Then they'll go off and tell everybody, oh, she's talking about me. That's not a friend that you may not want anyway.

Vance Crowe [00:53:29] Yeah, you were gonna learn it. Eventually

Tim Jordan [00:53:31] A good friend would say, I'm glad you told me. And it won't blow it up, but somebody who's immature or whatever, it might cause a problem. You might lose that friend. But then you might think to yourself, is that really the kind of friend that I want?

Vance Crowe [00:53:44] What other lessons are dad's learning along this retreat? They're learning about, Hey, these are the pressures my daughters are under that I didn't understand. Yeah. This is why they are more agreeable than maybe I am. Naturally. What else are they taking away? One

Tim Jordan [00:53:58] Of the big things we, we do some role plays around how to listen. Because if you go back to the, the, the female versus male brain, when there's this really interesting study they did at Stanford several years ago. They took women in college and men in college and had their brains hooked up to these monitors to see which parts of their brain were being activated in that moment. And they showed them photos of people who were suffering, like people in paint that make them feel, they showed the pictures to the women and you know, they started to feel sad and kind of empathetic. And then what they noticed was that nine different parts of their brain activated and both sides. So they went, wow. A lot of emotional centers in the female brain. They showed the same pictures to the guys, two parts of their brain and one side. So I always tell girls, before you start laughing, it doesn't mean that I don't have feelings. It just means we're wired differently. But even more important, when the female emotional centers activated and they were feeling two other parts of the female brain then activated. One of 'em was their verbal centers. So in general, girls more so than boys, when they're upset about something, like to talk about it with their friends, talk it talk and they like to talk it through. And the other part of their brain they activated was part of their prefrontal cortex. If there's a part of their brain that likes to process through things. So what happens for a lot of girls, unfortunately, I'm gonna get back to the guy part, the dad part. What happens to for girls is something happens. For instance, they're, they're at home on a Saturday night and they open their phone and they go onto Instagram or Snapchat and they see a picture of their two best friends and they're a sleepover and didn't invite them.

Tim Jordan [00:55:31] Ooh. So I always say, well what, what, what do you think? Yeah, I wonder why they didn't invite me, but it doesn't stop there. Then they go, well I wonder if I said something, what'd I do? Oh my God, weren't they becoming really close? Oh my gosh, maybe. What if they're gonna start leaving me out? They, they were on the same team last summer. Maybe they're being become best friends. They might leave me out. Oh my God. They end up going from picture on Instagram to, oh my God, I'm this lonely loser with no friends. I'm be sitting by myself in the lunch room on Monday. They ruminate, overthink, overanalyze, and they tend to ruminate almost always worst case. Now, the boys' brains, when they're emotional, their little tiny two, two centers, you know, activate. And they were feeling those two parts of their brain did, did not activate the part of the brain in the male brain. That activated was a, a part called the temporal parietal junction. It's the part of the brain that likes to fix problems. So I say to girls and spouses, if you go to your, your dad and you're upset, you're crying and you'd say, dad, this girl's been mean to me at school. What your, what's your dad say? Did say, oh, let's fix, why don't you just do this? Well, why don't you just do that? They go right to, and what they found in the study was not only did that part of their brain activate and they wanted to fix it mode, their emotional centers died down. They stopped feeling

Vance Crowe [00:56:46] Ah,

Tim Jordan [00:56:47] And then evolutionary psychologists said, I wonder why that would be advantageous. 'cause we, you evolve only if things are helping

Vance Crowe [00:56:54] Survive helping you. Yeah.

Tim Jordan [00:56:55] So they thought, you know, a cavemen back when our brains were forming, you know, differently, a cavemen were out there hunting and providing. So we were out there in dangerous times. And so we had to be really focused in the moment doing one thing at a time. And we could not allow our emotions to clut our judgment. 'cause if there's any hesitation, we might get whacked. That's what they think. I think that that sort of makes sense.

Vance Crowe [00:57:20] Yeah. It all maps to me. You know, I'm thinking about the research they've done on when men and women find out about infidelity and the, the woman wants to know, did you become close with this other person? Did you share information? Did you teach, tell them things about, you know, what you're feeling and what you're worried about. Because that's their connection with the male. That's the intimacy. And the male wants to know what was the physical experience like and wanting to know all of those details and the, you know, just the, the way you're explaining how their brain lights up, you figure out, wait a second. It isn't just that in these one theory, it's, it's every experience that, that you have throughout your life are mediated through the way your brain lights up.

Tim Jordan [00:58:01] Yeah. So like for instance, those dads, when we, we show them that with their daughters together. So they're like, oh my god, oh, this is my wife. You know, they're making all these aha things. But then we talked about how when your daughter comes to you and with some emotions, especially your brain may go to fix it, but you need to be aware of that and, and, you know, stop it and just listen mirror. So I heard you say is blah, blah, blah. Is that right? Tell me more. And try and get in her shoes. See it from her point of view. It's so valuable. Most girls who come to their dads when they're upset don't want, don't want to be fixed. Most spouses who come with their husbands would say, I just want you to listen. I want you to understand what's going on and what, where I'm coming from. That's what most girls and women want.

Vance Crowe [00:58:46] And men, when they, when they are experiencing like, oh, you want me to listen? And it's like, well then why am I here? You could tell anyone this thing if all you want is to listen. Yeah. Aren't you here for my ideas? But there's something to be said. Everybody knows what it's like to feel heard, you know, the Yeah.

Tim Jordan [00:59:00] Experience

Vance Crowe [00:59:00] Of people doing these Legacy Interviews. You know, you spend two, two and a half hours hearing somebody's life stories. And even though I've said almost nothing at all during these interviews, all I've done is ask questions. Yeah. The bonding that occurs because this person is watching another person listen to them. And you're right. It, it's a, it's an experience people don't have very often.

Tim Jordan [00:59:20] It's validating. It says, I see you, I understand you. It makes sense why you might feel that way. It doesn't mean I agree with you, but it means if I was you and I was in your shoes and had experienced that at the age you're at, it made sense. It makes sense why you feel that way. But I also say to dads, after all that I say, and a lot of girls say to me, I don't usually share much with my dad because he would never understand. He was never a girl. I'll say, that's true. He was never a girl. But you may be surprised, your dad may not have experienced the exact same thing you did, but they, they experienced things that cause some similar emotions. Like for instance, we do it, excuse me, exercise with the dads and the daughters. We, it's called cross the line where they're all 'em together or on one side of the line. And then we throw out little things like cross the line if, if you have a pet, if whatever. But some of the things we'll we'll talk about or we'll say is cross the line and we'll tell the dads, you're your daughter's age right now. Okay, so you're gonna cross or not cross based upon when I was her age, would, would that have been true for me? So she'll say things like, cross the line. If you were ever left out by your friends, all, all the girls crossed and almost all the dads crossed. And the girl's like cross the line. If you've ever been teased, made fun of cross the line. Here's the big one. Cross the line. If you ever felt awkward socially. 'cause they see, they see their dad says this quote unquote finished product. They have this business, they're successful, they have a married and all this. They didn't see us when we were 13 with zits and couldn't talk because our, our testosterone level was high. It was shutting down our verbal centers. They didn't see us back then.

Tim Jordan [01:00:52] So the more more we're willing to share our stories, it says, I do, I think I understand when I was one time when I remember when I was in fourth grade, then you tell your story and tells your daughters, I can relate. I'm not a girl. It may be a little bit different, but the emotions oftentimes are similar. So I I can relate. So please come, come share with me.

Vance Crowe [01:01:12] So say more about this, the how does, what, how does a father look to a girl right? To a to a 13-year-old girl? What is she seeing? What does she know about him? I mean, certainly it depends, but

Tim Jordan [01:01:24] Yeah. Well if he's, if he's present, which is, which is a big thing, right? Because a lot of moms and dads aren't present a lot these days because we're all really distracted with

Vance Crowe [01:01:37] You mean present as in if they're on their phone, if they're, yeah. Spending their time working or, yeah.

Tim Jordan [01:01:43] One of the first things we say to the dads on these retreats, for instance, is we want you guys to keep your phones in your room, don't have meals, don't have, just put 'em away if you have to go to your room at, at a break and just make a couple phone calls and do that. But otherwise we want you to be full. And with the older girls, we said the same for you. We want you to be fully present. When girls show up at our summer camps, they go up to the check-in table. One of the first questions is, where's your phone? Oh, it's here. Give it to your dad. Give it to your mom. I know, but I need to use it for my alarm clock. I need to use that for music. I, I, yeah, I, oh, I've never heard that before. Right? We say, I get it. We'll have somebody wake you up, blah, blah. We, and the reason we say that and we ask, we tell the girls this isn't because we hate phones, we think they're evil or wrong. It's because we want you to be fully at camp. 'cause if you're here and then you're going Mm and you look at it and you go, oh, and look, I got the picture. You're not there.

Vance Crowe [01:02:37] And so if the dad is fully present, how is the daughter view him?

Tim Jordan [01:02:41] I think she views him. It depends. I, you know, there's a lot of variability, but I think they see them as an, as different than mom. They, they did back, back in my, my second year fellowship in Boston with Dr. Dr. Berry brows. And he was a very famous pediatrician. He did these really interesting studies where he, he took a little like three month olds and he had 'em like in a little infant pumpkin seat. And he would have a mom walk in the room and sit down in front of the baby and, and the mom would like squeeze their little thighs and she would coup and talk and the baby would coup back. And it was this nice little back and forth rhythm. And then the mom would go off, then the dad would walk in and as soon as the baby looked over and saw the dad, the baby did this. He called it the pounce look because dad was gonna be fun. Dad's not gonna be like, oh, huh. He, he might, but he is also gonna be like,

Vance Crowe [01:03:34] This is exactly what's happening in my house right now. I have a three month old and this is precisely what happens.

Tim Jordan [01:03:40] Yeah. And so, so well, but they see it, you know, dads in general, like there was a study that they did in Toronto one time where they saw that dads and moms read nursery rhymes differently. Moms would read the nursery rhyme like, you're supposed to 'cause you're a good girl. And dads would make up stuff all along the way. They would change it, make stuff up, make it was more interesting. And so, so there's a different energy that we bring. So I think a lot of times girls see their dads in general. I'm not saying moms aren't fun, but they see their dad's energy is a little bit different because of that. And dads also, one of the things we do at one of the places we go is there's a pool. And the first day after we do this fun exercise, we say, let's go to the pool. We have the, we have the, the dads line up in like this, two lines facing each other. This is in the shallow end, facing the deep end. And the girls are land their backs. Then we throw 'em down like a log bloom right down the line at the end. There's two dads who pick 'em up and they hea them as far as they can. And the girls are squealing and laughing. And we see this sounds so sexist. I'm sorry, I'm saying this, the mothers in the side of the pool are like, not these girls mothers, but just mothers. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:04:45] In general. Right. What are you doing? Yeah, yeah.

Tim Jordan [01:04:47] I'm not saying mothers don't ever throw their kids, but it's different.

Vance Crowe [01:04:50] Yeah.

Tim Jordan [01:04:50] It's just different. So I think the girls looked at their, their dads for that kind of energy. That's one big thing.

Vance Crowe [01:04:55] Yeah. I just, this summer I took my daughter in the pool and threw her up in the air and, and we got a photo of her at the peak. Right. We sent it out to our family. 'cause we thought it was really fun and the guys all sent thumbs up and the women were like, is that, is that safe? That's safe? Is that,

Tim Jordan [01:05:11] How deep was the water?

Vance Crowe [01:05:12] Right? So you, you have a podcast. Talk about that. What do you do on your podcast distance to, it's,

Tim Jordan [01:05:19] It's called Raising Daughters. Yeah. I did, I did blogs for probably five, six years and it was building it up. But then people, I got feedback from parents saying I'd rather listen in the car. I, I, I listen more than I read these days 'cause I have kids and blah, blah, blah. And so I started doing podcasts. I guess it's been about four years or so ago. I've done 190 ish of them. And I just picked topics that are relevant. I interview authors. I've also interviewed girls lots of times who are like starting high school or starting college or finishing college or I've talked to, you know, they had these conversations with girls about what's it like the dating scene today or all those kinds of things. But, and some of it's just me picking a topic like motivation or social media or whatever it might be. And then just talking about it. They're usually like 30, 35 minutes and they, I don't know. I, I enjoy doing it. I, I enjoy reading. I enjoy the research and, and, and I've gotten great feedback.

Vance Crowe [01:06:19] The, the, there's two subjects that you talked about. One here where you said the dating scene. I'd be interested to hear what is the dating scene. And then the other one is, how should parents interact with phones and giving them to kids? And these are both subjects you've tackled on your podcast. What, what would you say, first of all, where's the da dating scene for teenage girls these days?

Tim Jordan [01:06:40] It's, it's all over the place, I think. And also it kind of depends upon the school. It's, it's interesting. I think there is, there is some traditional dating, but there's also a lot of dating around. And one of the things I've noticed with, with girls, I'd say in the last five or 10 years, it seems like they're, their dating relationships are less mature than in the past. It sounds really judgmental. Why

Vance Crowe [01:07:09] Are you cringing when you say that? Well,

Tim Jordan [01:07:10] It sounds so judgmental, but I think there's some truth. Even women in college who I see when I talk to 'em, a lot of 'em are zoom visits. 'cause they're away at colleges. It seems like they're, their, their social emotional intelligence is less, I think we, they're, they're all on top of their, their grades and their studies and their select sports. But I don't think they're spending enough time in schools and at home helping kids develop social emotional intelligence.

Vance Crowe [01:07:33] There's a YouTube channel called Just Purley things. I don't know if you've seen that, but we were talking about YouTube shorts and, and one of the ones that I find to be totally fascinating is a woman, she's about 24 years old and she brings in other women and talks to them about hookup culture and things like this. And you realize as she's asking these other women about how many sexual partners have you had, what do you think men are interested in? The women she's talking to have literally no idea. Like what, what it is that a man wants. What is marriage material? What is, yeah.

Tim Jordan [01:08:07] And

Vance Crowe [01:08:07] It, that's been very surprising to me because I was always taught that women were far more sophisticated and knowledgeable in this area. And when I got married, my wife definitely was. But to, to realize that something's changed in culture maps to what you're saying too.

Tim Jordan [01:08:21] Well the culture. This started back in the sixties, but it's, I think there's been even more so of this in the last 20 ish years. I think it's okay. It's all okay. So there's, I see a lot of girls who say they're bisexual girls who say they're pansexual. They just, they're kind of trying things out because we've, we've given them permission. It's okay. And not everybody's given that permission. But I think in general, the culture has said this, is this normalized more than it used to be. So girls I think are experimenting more and they, and their hookups, I think their, their feelings about sexuality are different than they were obviously when I was growing up, I'm, you're younger than I am. But there were still more stuff about don't do it till you're married and that sort of thing. Whereas today, I mean, whether you look at TV or movies or the culture or anything, it's more like things like living, living together, you know, all that's shifted. And so I think their ideas about sexuality is there's way less shame. And so I think they, they're more like guys in the sense of it's okay to have hookups. There's less emotional attachment. Now I just said that out of this side of my mouth, on the other side of my mouth. But if the guy then doesn't call him, heck, the next week they're hurt. Some of them some, some of 'em like whatever, and they move on. So I think there's sort of a mixture.

Vance Crowe [01:09:40] Yeah. And there's a price to be paid when culture changes. Right. There's a, there could be very good things about it. It could be liberating, it could be, it could throw off shackles that people have had in the past. But the reason that society gets to those conclusions that they put on, you know, social morays and norms is because they were trying to avoid certain consequences. Yeah. And so as you start shucking things off, like whether or not women should hook up with multiple people, there may be benefits to that, but there's going to be drawbacks. And it's very difficult to know what the price will be 10 years down the line.

Tim Jordan [01:10:17] And I think it goes back to our earlier point about what's right for you, this may be going on the culture. You may have older siblings who did it a certain way or what, or your peers may be doing it a certain way. But what feels right to you? Are you in charge? Are you the one who's making conscious decisions based upon I wanna do this and I, and these are my reasons as opposed to, is it if I don't do it, is he gonna move on because I'm lame? Is he, do I want, am I gonna give up something because he's so cute and I've never had a boyfriend? Am I, am I gonna give it up because I, all my friends say they've had sex and I haven't. And I feel behind, like I'm this weird whatever. So I want, I don't want you doing anything for things like that. Again, outside of yourself reasons, other people approval, disapproval, everybody else kind of thing or fitting in kind of thing. So I want you to learn to think for yourself. So you're making conscious choices about everything.

Vance Crowe [01:11:13] Yeah. And I guess if you think about the past, many of those decisions they were making about not having sexual partners wasn't because they had thought through that that's what they wanted. It was because they were reacting to social pressure on that side. Right. It was just on the other side. Right,

Tim Jordan [01:11:25] Right.

Vance Crowe [01:11:26] So what about social media? When, when is the right time for a kid to get a cell phone? And and how do you recommend parents navigate this,

Tim Jordan [01:11:34] This, this is a whole talk in itself, but I'll I'll summarize. First of all, I always tell parents, I want you to understand something. When we were kids, I think that you're saying the same thing. 'cause you grew up in 1950s, not in the fifties, but fifties town. For most of us, we hung out with our friends outside the house. We were down the street, we were out in the woods. We were riding our bikes for miles. That's where we hung out. We had unsupervised time with our friends. We set all kinds of stuff that nobody heard. Nobody checked up on us. And when, and

Vance Crowe [01:12:06] It was forgotten like the wind, right?

Tim Jordan [01:12:07] And, and when, when it was dark, you came home. So we had that kind of freedom to connect and be with our friends. I tell parents, your kids want the exact same things you want. They want time with their friends. That's not supervised. They don't want a parent leaning over their shoulder 24 7. They wanna be able to have conversations and to talk and to flirt and to meet new people. They want the same things that we did. But we have shrunken their geographic freedom a lot in the last 20 years, partly because of what we talked about before with that fear of abductions and stuff. And so we don't let our kids do much anymore. We don't give 'em much leash. We don't let 'em go down the street very often because we're so afraid they're gonna get whatever. And, and so, and then COVID hit and you can't go to school for a year or a year and a whatever it was for your kids. It was different for different schools. And our parents said, no, you can't hang out with your friends. So then, then we really said, I here's your new neighborhood. And that was, but that was before COVID. COVID just jacked it up another couple decibels. But we've sort of forced 'em to, to hang out here. Plus they're busier than we were in general.

Vance Crowe [01:13:15] When you say here, you're saying on their cell

Tim Jordan [01:13:17] Phone. On their phone,

Vance Crowe [01:13:17] Yeah,

Tim Jordan [01:13:17] On their iPad, on their phone, on social media. They're, they're busier in a sense. I didn't have as many activities as, as kids did today. We didn't have club sports. I played baseball in the summer. We had like, what? 20 games and then we were done. Yeah. We, we weren't playing the same sport 12 months of the year. We weren't traveling around the country on tournaments starting at age eight. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:13:39] And what you did in the eighth grade didn't seem like it was going to impact your infinite future.

Tim Jordan [01:13:43] And so I, you know, if a girl walks out on a Saturday afternoon and says, Hey, I'm gonna go out and play with my friends. Where's everybody? Well they're, they're at a tournament, right? They're out of town at a tournament or they're at, they're, they got 14 soccer games this weekend.

Vance Crowe [01:13:58] Fascinating. And

Tim Jordan [01:13:59] So, so again, we're forcing them to hang out here. And so I, that doesn't mean give 'em a phone when they're two. What it means though is commiserate understand there's, there's a reason why this is so important to them. And with girls especially that part about wanting to connect, wanting to be a part of. That's, that's the, that's the peer pressure thing. The FOMO thing, not wanting to miss out because there's a part of our brain, another part of our brain called mirror neurons. Mirror like looking in a mirror. And that part of our brain watches what other people are saying, what other people are doing, looking at what's right, what's appropriate, what are the social mores. 'cause if I make a mistake, say the wrong thing or whatever, I might get kicked outta the group. If I get kicked outta the group, I die. So that if we're talking like this, then if you put your hands down, I might put my hands down. If I cross my arms,

Vance Crowe [01:14:50] Yeah, I can do it too. Yeah.

Tim Jordan [01:14:51] Do the same thing. Because we're trying, I'm trying to mirror you or vice versa because I wanna be close, I wanna connect. So we do that in so many different ways. If I'm, if I'm around a bunch of kids in my school and they're cheating, I'm much more likely to cheat because my mirror neurons say it must be okay. And you don't wanna be different than everybody if, and I also tell girls a lot that emotions are contagious. So if you hang out with a lot of girls who are depressed, guess what? There's a much better chance you'll probably end up being depressed or anxious or stressed out. If you go to some of these private schools these days, especially high school, they're all stressed out and they compete to see who's the most stressed. They come into school on final exams week in December and they say, oh my God, I was up till two o'clock so I was up till four o'clock. I haven't slept in three days. I studied 14 hours. They compete to see who is the most stressed out and they get, which amps 'em all up because it's contagious.

Vance Crowe [01:15:45] How much impact does a parent have on the friendship choices of a teenager?

Tim Jordan [01:15:50] Very little short of extreme extremes, especially with phones and things. But going back to your question about when, I don't have an exact age, like 12 and a half. But I would say this, in my experience of working with girls for a long time, I would say most girls are not ready for social media, especially until they're at least in high school with a really good track record. And my wife and I have a whole list of readiness signs that says I'm ready. Social signs, emotional signs, responsibility kind of signs, self responsibility so they can show you over time that they're ready for it. But things like, if you're embroiled in drama all the time with your friends, guess what? If you get a phone and get on social media, wham, it's

Vance Crowe [01:16:35] Hugely amplified.

Tim Jordan [01:16:35] Hugely. And so if you can't handle it off the phone, it's gonna get worse. Are you able to make your own choices and your own decisions? Are you media savvy? We did a really fun exercise with the dads and the daughters this weekend. This is, you'll find this interesting. We separated the dads and the daughters just for about five minutes. And my wife Ann took the dads, I took the girls. So the dads were, were making a drawing on this flip chart of the ideal daughter, their daughter at age 25. Oh. And the girls at the same time, were making a drawing of the ideal woman at age 25 to 30. I and i, I framed it as, but this is based not upon, this is my personal belief. This is what you've been hearing and seeing and absorbing. What's the culture telling you? What is vo photos and images? What's it telling you like this, this is how you should be. And so, so we come back, we always show the dad's picture first. And dads, there wasn't even a body. I think dancers are awkward about drawing their daughter's body at age. Th you know, whatever. All it was, was words like spiritual and, and and educated and close to their parents and responsible. High integrity. It's beautiful, right? We all open up over the page and the gross drawing is this, you know, I hourglass figure with big breasts, big butt. And I always write the words. They're always saying, well, this and that. She has blo long blond hair. She's got a purse puppy, she's rich, she's got a famous boyfriend. Oh

Vance Crowe [01:18:05] Wow. And she's

Tim Jordan [01:18:05] Tan and she's got perfect skin and blah. It's just all this, it's everything that they're hearing. I mean it's, it's, it makes sense. But the dads are like, this is my 12-year-old daughter and this is her ideal.

Vance Crowe [01:18:18] Wow. Just an

Tim Jordan [01:18:19] Eyeopener.

Vance Crowe [01:18:20] It must be huge

Tim Jordan [01:18:21] Eyeopener. We say. So you gotta have some, you dads have and moms have some educating to do. You have to teach your daughters how to be media and image savvy. In other words. And we started saying, when you, to the girls, we'll say when you see images online or magazines or whatever, there's some questions you might start learning to ask yourselves. Like, I wonder what they're trying to sell me. What are they trying to say to me about me? 'cause the truth is, what they're selling you is not perfume or beer or soda or makeup. What they're selling you is the idea that you are not enough. And if you, and if you wanna have cool friends and beautiful whatever, sexy friends, like these people in the commercial, you need our product. 'cause you in and of yourself are not enough. So they, they're trying to create us and they have these, these needs and these desires and these wishes. They're so unhealthy. But if you're not media image savvy, of course they're gonna buy in. I, I I need to have that.

Vance Crowe [01:19:24] Well, Dr. Tim Jordan, this has been absolutely fascinating. If people heard what you were saying and they thought, you know, it might be right for me to go on a retreat with my daughter, where would they go to find out more?

Tim Jordan [01:19:35] They could go to our website. It's just www dot Dr. Tim Jordan, like doctor dr tim jordan.com. And there's information about our retreats, my books. I've written six books and the, the podcast and there's all kinds of other educational things on there that they could check out. Well

Vance Crowe [01:19:54] This has been a phenomenal conversation. I'm so grateful you came on. I hope we get to do it again sometime.

Tim Jordan [01:19:59] Yeah, for sure. Thanks so much.