A Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Coach on Violence, Discipline, and Nearly Dying from Staph Infection

Vance Crowe [00:00:00] When you were in this moment, was it just rage that you felt? Yes, I was completely outta control. You know, I was in seventh grade, I was about what, 13, 14 years old. And this kid got beat to the pulp and he lost some of his vision on his eyes. And if, if he ever listened to this, I'm truly sorry, I regret that. This is the Vance Crow podcast. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. On Wednesdays, I sit down with an expert to figure out what sort of habits, discipline, or obsession did it take to become a master in your field. And this week we are speaking to a master of, of all things, fighting the ability to exert your will on another person, or at the very least, being able to keep another person from being able to exert their will upon you. I'm talking about Brazilian Jiujitsu coach Mike Rethmeyer, who actually also happens to be my Brazilian juujitsu coach. Now, this interview is a little bit different than other interviews, not least of which, because we're talking to a world class fighter, but also because all of the other people that I've ever interviewed, I've only had an a little bit of knowledge about what their skillset is. I'm not really going to know very much about a cardiologist, and I've never drawn a building like an architect. But because Mike is my coach, I've actually had the experience of grappling with him, of rolling on the ground and trying to choke him out, or to move his arm in such a way that he will give up.

Vance Crowe [00:01:34] And I liken the experience to a 6-year-old trying to fight with their father. And what this has given me is the express knowledge, the visceral understanding of just how high up on the mountain that Mike is in his, the mastery of his craft. I've rolled with people that are every level in between the very new beginner like me, all the way up to other black belts like Mike. And I can tell you that his level of knowledge about how to maneuver his body, about how to control himself is beyond anything that I can ever even imagine getting to. And yet I show up to class two to three times a week trying to learn it. This is an interesting interview. And even if you have no interest at all in martial arts or fighting, the conversation is really about what did it take? What sort of experiences did a child have to have to decide that violence was going to be the route that they were going to go? They were going to develop a knowledge of how to fight and, and push back on other people. It's a really interesting, and I would say at times, a heartbreaking conversation because you understand what Mike had to go through to become the hulking, respected master of fighting that he is today. I am so proud to bring you this interview. I hope you enjoy it. And I especially hope that it is way outta left field for you. I know how different this is than all the other interviews, but Mike was an excellent guest and talked about things with a level of candor that we should all be grateful for.

Vance Crowe [00:03:06] So without further ado, buckle in and enjoy this conversation with Brazilian Juujitsu Coach Mike Rethmeyer. Mike Rethmeyer, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. It is great to see you, coach. I I, I needed somebody to jump in and fill in for Jackie Joiner. Sey. She had been invited to be on the podcast and we're working on it, but she couldn't do this week. And I was like, oh no. Where is there a person I can talk to that I think has an expertise as deep as an Olympic gold medal athlete? And you were the one that came to mind because you have an expertise in Brazilian juujitsu and I have actually rolled on the ground with you. I've tried as hard as I can to choke you to death and I have absolutely no chance of being able to do it. So it's clear to me that you have a deep expertise in Jiujitsu and I am honored that you would come here and talk on the podcast about that expertise. Wow, man, thank you very much. I really appreciate being here right now. It's even a big honor to replace Miss Sey, I guess. Yeah. Well, so let's talk about Juujitsu as a form of martial arts. What is it When, when I tell it to people and I, I can tell their, and I say, do you know what that is? They say, is that like karate? And I, I don't have a good answer for what juujitsu is. It's not defined in my mind. I know it when I see it, but I don't know that I could say this is Juujitsu. Okay, well, so what I tell the, the folks that don't really understand martial arts that well, I basically tell 'em like, think about wrestling.

Vance Crowe [00:04:46] 'cause everybody's familiar wrestl with wrestling, especially American, right? The, the wrestling culture is high here in America. And then I says, measure wrestling with submission holds. And the only difference is that we fight from our back and wrestling, the goal is to put the person on their back. You know, that's includes all of it, you know, that way they can have a better understanding of it. Of course, it's very different than wrestling. But yeah, because in wrestling, I mean, I did it just a little bit. There are rules on, hey, you have to have his arm in order to have his neck. Yes. That does not exist in jiujitsu. No, no, no. But that's probably the simplified form for the, for the just the average person. Yes. The average person doesn't have any idea what it is. But there's also no like kicking or biting or eye gouging. No. So, or breaking of fingers. Let me give you a good general explanation. So jiujitsu itself in Japanese, it means gentle art. Okay. Gentle art, meaning that there's no striking. So it's based off a manipulation of your opponent, rendering them through submission holds, you know, so basically you close the gap to take away the strikes and then you control the person in the ground and then you submit 'em, you know, and when you say submit Yes. You mean make it so they'll say, I give up, I give up. Yes, yes. They gotta tap three times and you apply submission hold. And that's the mutual respect to have amongst when you roll with each other. And then you just basically like have to let go, you know? So that is the categorical difference between juujitsu and literally everything else I do in my life is that I show up to your gym and there are a bunch of guys at varying degrees of skill, technical proficiency at this art.

Vance Crowe [00:06:17] But then when you come in, you take off your shoes, you put on the gi, you bow, you walk onto the mats. And now when you roll with somebody, which is you actually grapple with them. Once you're done with drilling and doing the exercises, you actually roll live and you go as hard as you are capable of going, you are allowed to go full speed. And then when the person says, I've had enough, then everybody stops. And instead of it being like, you leave that place where everybody's fighting or angry at each other, I'm closer with the guys at my juujitsu studio than I've been with any other group of guys in my life. I think, man, that's fantastic to hear. You know, my wife came to me a while back ago and she said that some, some of the folks at the schools told their how they love being there and how the camaraderie, like you said, it's high and everybody just loves being there. And it's like a big family. And that's how I envision my clubs being bands, you know, I wanna make sure people wanna be there. It's like you said, you know, we're, we're trying to technically kill each other when we're training. So I, I don't want people to think that, oh man, this is really hard. I'm sore, I'm achy. 'cause you're gonna be sore and achy the next day when you train. And I don't, but I wanna make sure you guys go there and then exert the energy and learn a very unique skill that will actually teach you how to defend your life. You know? And at the same time, I want everybody to be, be a big brotherhood, you know? Well, and that happens.

Vance Crowe [00:07:48] Yeah. And, and it happens because when you go to jujitsu, you have this surreal experience that somebody can think that they can imagine. But until it's actually happening, you can't, which is somebody takes your collar, for example, and squeezes it in just the right way that you cannot breathe. And you realize, if this person chose not to let me go, I would be done. There would be, there's literally nothing I can do about it at this point. And yet you get that close to the edge. And then when you're done, I, you know, pop up, give the guy a hug, clap hands and say, how did you do that to me? 'cause I wanna learn how to do that. Yeah. That's what it's all about. I mean, it's controlled, you know, it's gives you self-control, gives you awareness of, you know, not hurting a person too. You know, I think this is why it's great for a self-defense style. You know, somebody try to really come out and attack in the street or something. You'd be able to render the person without even hurting you had control of what you're doing. Is that, is that why you learned it? Because you were doing self defense? I mean, 'cause to be, to, to make me make sure everybody understands Yeah. Your full-time job, who you are. Yeah. How you provide for your family. Yes. Is that you run a juujitsu gym that's actually got two separate gyms that people go to. One on one side of the Mississippi, one on the other one in Illinois, one in Missouri. And you run classes day in and day out there teaching people how to do juujitsu. Yes, yes. I, I started because I wanted to learn how to defend myself. You know? Do you wanna hear the background story? Yeah, I mean, like what, what I, I didn't have the fear that I needed to defend myself.

Vance Crowe [00:09:21] Well, other than for my brother, that's it. Okay. So I, let's go back to when I was born. I was born here in the United States. My dad was a Marine, he was in a service. And I, I was born in Camp Pendleton in San Diego. My mom, she was young. They met down in Brazil and they, they came back when I was born. I was born here, you know, and she, my mom is Brazilian. So, you know, I moved down there after I was born. I live in Brazil until I was 19 years old. And I moved back to the us you know, I'm 40 years old now. So basically, I'm not gonna get into much my, my family story, but let's basically talk about how I got involved with Juujitsu. Long story short, I got bullied really bad when I grew up, you know, throughout. You did? Yes. Yeah. I mean, I was just as short little chubby kid, you know, that look different. I look German, you know, my last name is Rath Meyer, so I look German, you know, so I look very different from where I grew up. And I used to get picked on a lot. And I used to get in fights in a lot of trouble. And how did those fights start? What were they over? The kids will tease me about my, me being chubby and, you know, and then I, I didn't know what to do and I didn't accept it. So I, I started beating them up on him, you know, and things just escalated. You're not supposed to get at school, you know. And I got in trouble. I got kicked outta several schools throughout the years, you know. Oh, they were that bad of fights. Yes, yes. I shamefully. But I think that's important for people to listen to this. 'cause a lot of people think that martial arts, you know, they, it induces more violence.

Vance Crowe [00:10:53] It's the biggest BS I've ever heard in my life. You know, martial arts gave me control of my actions, you know, it gives you self-control. You have awareness of what's going on. You know, I have people in the past getting on my face and cussing me, you know? And I just kind of like blow 'em off. I laugh and blow 'em off, you know, because you now feel like I know what I could do to this person. Exactly. But the, the cost of engaging with them physically could be a lot higher than, than he realizes. Yes. Yes. So actually, even in like seventh grade, I heard a, a kid really bad. He was hospitalized, you know? And that's when I decided that I need to do something about it, you know, hospitalized. 'cause you, you were punching him, you were? Yes. We got into altercation. It kept building up. I was going to a Catholic school in, in Sao Paulo. And things got escalated. I kept talking to the head priest, my parents, I tried to do everything in the book I could to make sure to avoid any confrontation, physical confrontation. But it got to the point that I had to do something to defend myself. These two guys tried to jump me, and I called him out one by one and they accepted of the challenge. And then the, they were a little group. I mean, these guys were instigators, you know, they're bad influence around the kids. Some of them were drug dealers. And I basically knocked this kid out and I was so outta control. I got him mounted on him, and I beat him up to the pulp. His face swelled up like a football, you know, imagine a football sideways. That's how his face looked. And the kid, when you were in this moment, was it just rage that you felt? Yes, I was completely outta control.

Vance Crowe [00:12:24] You know, I was in seventh grade, I was about what, 13, 14 years old. And this kid got beat to the pulp and he lost some of his vision on his eyes. And if, if he ever listens to this, I'm truly sorry. I regret that. You know what? And so, and when that resolves, so you get off of him and he gets taken to a hospital. Yes. And then after that, the other kids are thugs. They start doing death threats on me. Oh, it got worse for you. Yes. And then my dad actually had to come and rescue me for the school using his handgun because they said they, they're gonna kill me if I walk outside. That's how bad it was. Even the head priest that know what to do. 'cause he can control him, you know? And it was, that's real, that there were kids there that their threats of violence were so strong. Yes. That, that a man would need to come with a gun. Yes. Yes. Yeah. That was the case. Luckily for me, my dad, he was a Marine and he was a, he actually did private security, you know, and he was allowed to have a gun. And Brazil gun laws were very strict, you know, so in the case my dad had to, because these kids were threatening me, you know, and, and a lot of them were like street thugs. And what was going on in your area that these kind of street thugs were at school or around school? Well, so Catholic sch a lot of Catholic schools in Brazil, they're act a lot cheaper than you think here. United States, the public school system is not the greatest. So if you want a bad education, the, the religious schools are a more affordable way to, for your kid to get a better education. But they also do a, I guess a lot of charity, you know, so they allow a lot of kids too, to come in, you know. So sometimes you get mixed up with a bed. You could be in a, in a neighborhood where that's where that's better than the public school.

Vance Crowe [00:13:58] So it doesn't cost that much. And so kids that are troubled, their parents send them there Yes. Hoping that it's going to help him. Yeah. But maybe it's not. Yes, yes. You know, and that's kinda like how the whole thing fell down, went down. And from there on, I just fully dedicated to studying martial arts. Yeah. But how did you even know where, what to find? I mean, people do that. Did you do go straight to jujitsu? No. No. So I was ready being bullied a lot at that school before this whole incident happened. And my uncle Marcelo, he, he used to do TaeKwonDo, right? So he told me, like, he kept telling, I remember the, have conversation with my mom says, Hey, he's getting in trouble. I think martial arts would be good for him. You know, I'm gonna move this just so it's right in front of you if you, oh no, you don't have to change the way you're sitting. Just make sure you're talking to it. Okay. And so, you know, I was always the kind of person that I wanna do the best. I wanna train with the best. You know, I don't care about convenience. I'll, I'll just drive. I do whatever I have to do. I mean, at, at the time I was 13, 14 years old. And you had to drive to be the best. Yes. At that age, yes, I wanted to, but I wanted to, like, if I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do things the right way. That's how I've always been. You know, I'm not gonna just halfass everything. So I found out about this TaeKwonDo school in ba I grew up in Sao Paulo, Sao Paulo's, like New York City, a giant metropolitan city. And you know, we had this little China area, which is all the, the Asian neighborhood. So for me to get there from where I lived, I had to take two public buses and I had to connect to a terminal and then go to the other place. So it took me just to get there over, well over an hour, you know?

Vance Crowe [00:15:32] So, but I was dedicated and I went, and I, because at that school, at the time, TaeKwonDo student, the Olympics, so they trained Olympic athletes there. So I wanna train with the best. Went there, I start training. I mean, and so TaeKwonDo, yes. My understanding of it is it's kicking, punching Yes. In, in a, in a format where you have some finesse and you can block the other person. It's not just like boxing. Yes. No, yes. TaeKwonDo is mainly like, strikes below the head, you know, so you're not allowed to punch the head and you, it's, it's, it's based off on the point system. You know, this is when I was 14 years old, I went and I was expecting already right off the bat to learn how to spar and do all that kind of stuff. So I had really high expectations. That was always one of my biggest mistakes. You know, the, the old school coach, he was really cool. Korean guy. I liked him, you know, and he gave me this booklet for me to study. That was the first thing he gave me. He says, you need to study this and learn. And then he may be ready to, for your first rank. So, you know, I opened up this booklet. There's a lot of stuff in there in Korean. You know, I, you know, but there's a lot of good stuff, you know, for a kid, you know. So I had to learn how to count. And it's like moves or what? It's, no, it's Korean culture. Yeah, it's Korean culture. I had to learn numbers and some, some terms associated to the, the, the art itself. No kidding. Yeah. And then he also wanted me to have a code of conduct towards me. My homework, my daily chores, my discipline. You know, I thought that was really cool, you know, when I saw that, you know?

Vance Crowe [00:17:04] And what do you mean? Because Yeah. Why, why was that cool? I mean, you don't think of discipline as being something that's cool. 'cause right off the bat, he gave me purpose. You know, when I got there, when I was a kid, I stopped and think about an ez that was purpose, you know? So I understood what the coach did that, you know, so he gave me a book to have some purpose of what I'm doing. You know, that's kind of a lifestyle, right? I have to be a disciplined person to be able to be good at it. And that's why I think what martial arts is all about is discipline. And, but then I spent a lot of time stretching. They, they really want to teach you how to stretch so you can throw those high kicks and spinning kicks and everything that they teach you. And I did it for a few months. And I remember I, I tested for my first stripe and I got it. And I think within the fourth or fifth month, I started asking the coach if I could start sparring a little bit. 'cause I used to watch some of the black belt sparr. And he was very strict about it. He said, no, you need to train more. You need to make it more flexible. Or your kicks need to get better. You need to improve, period. And I was doing everything. I was dropping weight, I was doing everything he told me to. I follow everything to the teeth. Well, the bullying was going on at school at the same time. It's still going on. Yeah. Still going on. This is before the whole incident when I heard the kid, this is at the same timeframe. Okay. So I try to have a heart of heart conversation with him about what's going on. And he says, no, you need to control yourself and this and that, this and that. This is to the, the TaeKwonDo coach. Yes. You're saying this is what's happening at my school. And he says, yeah, yeah, yeah. He says, don't engage, don't engage. And the problem advance is nobody wanna do anything about it.

Vance Crowe [00:18:35] You know? So to any kid out there that's being bullied right now, you know, just don't give up. You know, because you need to do something for yourself. You need to go after yourself. Don't rely on people to do things for you. You know? And that's because yes. The only person you can control Yes. Is yourself. It's yourself. Exactly. And in that physical confrontation Yeah. There is nobody coming to save you. Yeah. Rely on yourself. Exactly. And, you know, so you need to do something for yourself. You need to do something that gives you control, it gives you purpose, you know, and that way when people come and they're rude to you or mean or say ignorant things, you, you, you, it's, it's almost like he created like a, a a, a wall around you. It's not gonna bother you at all. It doesn't bother me at all. You know, people are rude or ignorant. That's just kind of, oh, oh, whatever man. I, because it doesn't get in the way of your purpose. Exactly. And as long as it doesn't get in the way of your purpose. Exactly. Then there's no problem. Exactly. Exactly. But if you don't have a purpose Yeah. Then they can get in the way of it because you're just wandering around and it's like somebody Yeah. Stands in front of you. Exactly. So, you know, I don't wanna ramble too much about this. Lemme just get to the point. So I pushed the coach to the point that, okay, you're gonna spar. So I remember there was this little dude, and he was super fast, but I mean, I was 14 years old. He put me to the spar with him, right? So the guy start, you know, throwing, spinning back kicks. He jacked me in the stomach really hard. I remember this, I out a spike. I threw a big haymaker on him. What's a haymaker? So it's an overhand right punch. Okay.

Vance Crowe [00:20:06] You know, and I hit him crystal clean his temple. He fell down, hit his head on his bench, you know, he was hurt. Coach flipped out on me that I couldn't do that. That's not TaeKwonDo. And I apologize, you know, and I just told him, I just wanna learn how to defend myself. I'm trying to follow everything you're telling me. And this is what's going on right now with my life. Oh. And I am now learning how to defend myself. And now I'm trying, I wanna go full speed. Yes. And now you're telling me I'm doing something wrong. Yes. For going full speed. Yeah. But TaeKwonDo, you're not supposed to punch it the head. I throw a big haymaker in a guy's head and I knocked them down, you know? So you did break the rules, but that's, the rules are set up such that there, there's way more controls on Yes. On what that situation is all about. Yes. Obviously I didn't have the self-control at the time. And so from there, the coach pretty much kicked me outta the school. So the guy that I knocked down, he came up to me and he is like, Hey man, sorry, how things went. You know, I, I understand what you're trying to, to do. And he says, why don't you check out Muay Hai Kick boxing? So I'm like, that's more, I think what you're looking for, you know? And that was one of his top students telling me to check out mut kick boxing. So if you don't know Muai Kick boxing is, it's traditional kickboxing from Thailand. And it's big in MMA right now. Yes, it is. The tie boxers are, it's actually their national sport tie boxers are national sport.

Vance Crowe [00:21:37] And they basically is straight up toe to toe, hard leg kicks to the body, to the legs, you know, elbows and knees. And, and pretty much incorporates some of boxing techniques too, with straight punches and hooks and upper cuts. So it's, it's a really raw form of, of, of striking, you know, it's very cultured, rich, you know, and yeah, it's all over the world. MMA, it's, it's a huge art that's incorporated into MMA, which MMA is incorporates a lot of different arts. And what differentiates it from TaeKwonDo? So the TaeKwonDo is basically point systems, so you don't have to strike hard, you know, you do a strike count of point, you know, which is, it's probably a healthy way. So you can learn how to apply striking. Now Muay Hai is straight up, I'm gonna kick the crap out of you. Oh, it's full speed. Toe to toe. Yes. Yeah. You know, and you're really learning how to basically batter somebody in the most vicious way. How do those guys train for the long term doing Muay Hai? Aren't you? Aren't you gonna get knocked out? Aren't you gonna have broken legs and ribs? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I, the, the ties, they, they, a lot of them get gangrene in your legs, you know, from abusing their legs to condition their shin so they can tolerate the kicks and check the kicks when somebody kicks 'em, you know? Oh man. Yeah. So a lot of 'em have a really, like, short career, you know, so that, that's where you ended up going Yeah. To the Muay Thai dungeon. I know. And here, here's the, the, the, the best part. There was one of the best Muay Haii gyms from walking distance from my house on the entire city, you know, and Sao Paulo has millions of people.

Vance Crowe [00:23:14] So I was so happy about that. It was just a quick mile walk, you know, to the gym, you know? And next thing my, there are people that are thinking a mile walk. Yes, that's so far. But for you, you're like, that's nothing for the city. That's nothing. That's absolutely nothing. It was about four or five city blocks, you know, it was nothing. It was a piece of cake. So I remember getting to that gym and Marcus Rodriguez was my, my coach man. He was an awesome guy. And there's, there's another coach too at the time. His name was ti he was both really good Muay Hai, kick boxers, man, you know, they're Badass guys champions. So for people Whot know that. Have you ever heard of Shoebox? No. Shoebox is the team from K Chiba Brazil. He, they're the, the big Muay Hai team that had Anderson Silva Silva. You heard of those guys, right? Yeah, sure. Er Silva, you know, Shogun Hua. It's so, they're like one of the top teams in MMA, you know, back in the two thousands. Early two thousands. And they're kicking the crap outta everybody. So my coach, Marcus Rodriguez used to follow out of those guys, you know, and he's beaten some of them, you know. Okay. So he was like a legit, like, how many other kids are going to this class? When you show up, what's it like? Ah, man, it was all adults. I was like the youngest guy in the group. Really? They took me right in, you know, they took me right in. They saw, they felt my pain and like, no, let's get in here. Because you were able to tell him what was going on. Yeah. Oh yeah. I was upfront. I said, this is what I wanna do be, and I told him how I got kicked outta the kickbox, the, the TaeKwonDo gym, because, you know, I was trying to, and right off the Batman, you know, we're doing circuit training and that's how I, like, that's, I always like doing my striking how I teach striking to people, especially the MMA guys.

Vance Crowe [00:24:54] I train, you know, that's how I started in mu tie. We did a lot of circuit training. If people don't know what circuit training is, it's kinda like, you know, CrossFit and all that. You set a time, you know, three minutes, five minutes. And let's say I'll make you hit pads for three minutes. Then you go hit the bag for three minutes. Then you know, you might, you might do a, a little bit of shuttle boxing for three minutes or jump Pro for three minutes. And we do that. That's a pretty standard type of training for any kind of a pretty brutal, pretty, you're pretty tired at the end of that. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yes. Yeah. And the coach keep correcting your technique and very repetitive because you gotta focus in repetitive striking. 'cause you gotta build that muscle memory. Your body needs to be acclimated to that. You know, that's the thing that I did not know about fighting before I started coming into Juujitsu. 'cause you know, if I'd gotten in fights as a kid, you don't do it often enough to be able to figure out there's a way that I can make my body move. That no matter what, I'm in a better position than I was in Yes. If I didn't use these move, keep my hands in, keep my elbows in. Yeah. And all of that stuff. You can't read it in a book and do it. You have to do it over and over and over again. Yes. And you have to pay the price for keeping your arm out. Because then vin's gonna grab it and put you in a, in a, in an arm lock and all. And you're gonna be like, oh, IOW, stop, stop, stop, stop. And it's that repetitive, okay, I don't wanna do that again. Along with pain that teaches you. Yeah. And then you're doing this with Muay Thai. When do you start sparring man? I would say then the first two, three months, you know, okay. My coach Marcus used Sparr with me.

Vance Crowe [00:26:26] It was light, of course he didn't wanna hurt me. But, you know, I just remember how important, I remember him telling me this. It's very important, if you wanna learn how to defend yourself, to understand how to take a punch, take a strike, a kick and a punch. Because you can take, you can, you can change the way you get hit. So it doesn't hurt so bad. It's not even that. It is just that. So, okay. So I trained a lot of fighters before. Right. And when my coach taught me that, those was like one of the most valuable lessons I learned from him. He says, a lot of people wanna fight, but they don't know how to take a punch. They don't take a strike or a kick. You know, they flinch, they freak out. They kind of panic. Oh yeah. You know, so to have that self-control, it's, it's, it's a challenge itself. And that's something really tough to teach somebody. You know, some people are fine, they're okay. They know how to take it. You know, but you have to want it. And because, you know, pain is coming. Yeah. And you're putting yourself in the way of that pain Yeah. For hopes that it will teach you something in the future. Yeah. Yeah. And, and to be honest, to be able to learn how to take that punch and stay relaxed, okay, I'm gonna go right back at the guy. That's, that's like some serious stuff to learn right there, you know? And if you learn how to do that, man, that's, I would say that's 50% of the work you need to get done to get better. So if somebody was on the street with you starting to get loud and they went to throw a punch, you wouldn't flinch in the same way that I would like, I would, I would flinch. No, but I'll raise my hands, my palms facing him saying like, I don't wanna have problems. You know, if you're in the street fight, you never wanna keep your hands down because most people get caught by keeping your hands down. So especially when I teach self-defense of people, keep your hands up.

Vance Crowe [00:27:59] Like, you know how the cops say, raise your hands up. So open your palms. That way there's not a threat. Don't make a fist. 'cause when you make a fist, people are gonna take it as a threat. Open your hands up, show your palms to them, and then say like, like this, and says, I don't want any problems. I'm very sorry. And take a step back. Okay. Because you wanna be outta range. And it's that sort of, that sort of presence of mind. Yeah. You get when you're, when you're studying Muay Thai, because now you're like, I can be present in this moment. Yeah. Instead of being afraid. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So he keeps, he So he has you doing this for three months. You're getting ready to take a punch. Yeah. Now you go live Yeah. With adults. Yes. Yes. Yeah. There wasn't a whole lot of kids. I mean, there wasn't kids program. It's just these badass Muay Hai guys fighting fights every month. You know, some Tuto fights or some Muay Hai fights themselves, or they're doing like full contact four men tournaments, which that was vicious and nuts, you know. And I even ended up doing some amateur ones myself, you know. So what are four man tournaments then? So, so Brazil, you, you know, soccer is the national sport. And they had organized cheering for the, for the teams. So they have a place called G ga, which they're, they organized cheering. And they have carnival club too, the Team Corinthians, which is a big soccer team from Sao Paulo. And they used to host on the, they, so they owned this huge, huge warehouse where they did all, they set up all the, the, you know, the, the carnival, what do you call it?

Vance Crowe [00:29:34] Just the festivities? Yeah, yeah, the festivities. So they used to lease that out for a lot of full contact fights in there. So I remember going there and it, it, it, I mean, it literally felt like an underground thing. You know? I feel like when you watch these movies and you know, these guys are fighting the garage, you're like, fight club, you know? So these guys put this little ring, it's not even on the platform. It's flat out on the ground. And it had some ropes going around. And you got these teams coming in, you know, from, and then you'll bring two, three athletes. You know, you had the Chinese boxing guys and the, the, the, the full contact Kush karate guys. Oh. Different styles of martial arts. And we doing ate style fighting. What is ate style fighting. Oh, I never heard the, the story about the, the blood sport. Never seen that movie with Van Damm. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's, it's kinda like that. You know, that's what you were going, how old were you? You were 14 years old. 14, 15 years old. I was going to watch at first and then I participated once, you know, I went one and one, but my matches were different. We were, we were fully geared. I was a kid, of course it was other kids. Okay. And we're just doing like one minute round. But they're introducing you to this blood sport. Yes. They were trying to ease my way in to become this, you know, vicious person, you know, but with self-control, you know, and awareness of what I'm doing, you know. And so Muay Hai was, was good for you? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You'd be surprised. Right after Muay Hai, I still had kids teasing me and bothering me and I just kind of walked out and man, at first my parents thought that, oh no, this is gonna promote more violence in my son. And man, I used to get off school. All my friends were the Muay Hai guys.

Vance Crowe [00:31:05] You know, I used to get off school, go straight to the gym. And the gym was really cool because it was actually like a gold gym type setup. You know? I had all weightlifting equipment and they had different rooms. They had, they had dancing, you know, they had think about anything of extracurricular activity they had there. You know, they also had judo. They had all juujitsu, they had everything. You know, because this, this seems so foreign Yeah. In the us But I guess when you put it in the context of CrossFit or Orange theory. Yeah. Only instead of doing that there was also fighting. Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. Because a lot of people wanna learn a skill. They wanna get in shape and learn a skill at the same time. Yeah. Great. You can get in shape. I'm all for it. I, I, I love working out, you know, I'm very disciplined by the way I work out. But you know, it's a lot of people, a lot of people seek me out 'cause they're bored. They're tired of just going to the gold gym and they wanna learn a skill and get in shape at the same time. I mean, you were describing exactly my path. Yeah. I lifted for four years. Yeah. Before I had the guts to go into the Jiujitsu studio. And now I see I should have been doing 'em in tandem. Yeah. Why did I wait so long? I was afraid that I wasn't gonna be strong enough or fit enough. But you're right. I had taken lifting to the point where I'm like, I'm not gonna become a professional bodybuilder. Yeah. So what's the point of, I'm not, I'm not exercising so that I can exercise more. I'm doing it for some other reason. And that's what juujitsu gave me. Exercise. 'cause you like to exercise, don't exercise because you wanna be a bodybuilder, then it's different. Then you find a go. You know the exercise will help you. You know, I do it. I do it all the time. You know. So how, how long then did you do Muay Hai for Man? It felt like it was a long time, but it wasn't, you know, I, I got ranked to the red striped in Belson Muay Hai.

Vance Crowe [00:32:43] And so I'd say I probably started back in 92 and I had my first contact with Juujitsu in 94. And then my coach ended up retiring and one of his, his right hand man tried to take over, but he was also in the military. So he was, had a really hard time teaching. They closed down the program at that school. So I was going to the other guy to a Gracie Baja school in Sao Paulo. Oh. He was teaching mu there, they had an MMA, no, sorry. At the time it was Vale Tudo. It was K no Bart. So it was different. This is before there was any UFC, any of that stuff. F this is all the beginning of this. Yes. This is the dawn of it. Yes. You know, so I used to go there because he was trying to help this one guy for a fight. And I had no idea who he was fighting. Later on I found out it was Van La Silva from Should Box. It was his very first fight. Okay. Yes. So for people that don't have an understanding of this, Brazilian jiujitsu hit the mainstream when they started holding these special UFC contests, where the, where the guys that knew Jiujitsu would just wall up the hell out of boxers and karate and TaeKwonDo and Kickboxers and the family that started that. Or there are a few, few people that were doing Brazilian juujitsu. But you mentioned the Gracie's. Yes. That is a famous school of thought. Yes. And that's the thing that I didn't understand until I got into going to your gym. It's that the only way you can learn how to fight is if you study under somebody else.

Vance Crowe [00:34:13] Yes. And that, and, and that person has a mastery of it. That is a way that they learned how to make their skill, their, their martial art and actual art. So you are learning the ways of the master of that school. So it really is a school of thought. It's not like you can just go hand out curriculum and be like, Hey, you guys teach these lessons. You have to be kind of, it's an apprenticing program. It's a hands-on. Yes. It's apprenticeship. Yes. And so you were apprenticing at a Gracie facility. Yeah. That, that seems like a big deal. Well, lemme tell you a little bit how my first contact with Jiujitsu was. So at first I thought, okay, just a bunch of dudes grabbing each other, you know? So I thought very low of it, you know, 'cause I say normalize the real deal that that stuff is ridiculous. You know, wrestling, I just saw that stuff was all ridiculous. And then I had a friend of mine, Fernando, and he was training Juujitsu. And then one day he came up, I forgot what it was, maybe it was at the school I train at and I decided, he says, Hey Mike, let's just roll. And I'm like, whatcha talking about, let's roll. And at the time I was still so, so explain what rolling is. So rolling is like what we call, when we wrestle each other in Juujitsu. We're live the live training. You know, we just basically wrestle each other to the submission. You know, do anything you want. It's essentially like, do anything you want. You're standing up, you two are both standing up now. Go, go. Yes. You do a take down. You know, you pin the person down, you attack their arms or neck, do all that, you know, take their back fully live all the way to the point when they say, I can't take anymore and I tap out.

Vance Crowe [00:35:45] Yeah. Yeah. And I'll never forget the first time I got submitted, you know, he called me in a guillotine choke. Okay. A guillotine choke is like him wrapping his hand, his arm around your neck. And he holds his hands together. And then he squeezes, you know, stopping the blood flow from your carat artery going through your brain. You know, that's what most choke holds are working jujitsu stop. Yeah. It's not that you run out of air. No. It's that the circulation goes out. Yes. And it's lights out. Yes. It basically, yes. You go out pretty fast. And I remember he actually jumped guard and my face went straight on in the hard ground. There was no mats. So I remember, you know, seeing like a big light of flash when I hit my head, my head on the ground. And, and then I didn't know what to do, you know? So I kinda like screamed and he let go and it was like, man, you need to tap. And I'm like, you should have told me that. You know, you didn't even know how to tell him Stop, stop, stop. No, no. He was like, this guy's gonna kill me. And then I'm just thinking in my head, I'm like, this is nuts. You know? I'm like, what the hell just happened? You know? And I still kept rolling him. He called me one more guillotine and he caught me in a straight foot lock. Okay. It's a, it's basically a leg lock technique. It was the first. So those was the first three times I ever got tapped out, you know, and I then, and that was my first contact with Juujitsu, you know, and I lost contact with Fernando. He's a great guy. But he's the one introduced me to Juujitsu. And I'll always mention his name for the rest of my life as a white belt in your gym. Yes. I know what it is like to be submitted and have that happen. Yeah. But to imagine you coach, being in a position where somebody could submit you three times in a row is mind blowing to me.

Vance Crowe [00:37:16] Yeah. Because we now have open mats. Yes. Where we'll come on Saturdays. Yeah. And everybody rolls with everybody. There are white belts there with other white belts. And we can go through the belt system in a little bit, but just as a, as a matter of course they get better and better. And you, I I'll roll with black belts and they whip me. But there's something different about rolling with you and like, you know, I would be ashamed to say it other than the fact that I would, I would challenge anyone else to roll with you. When I roll with you. You are so much more powerful and large than I am. And I'm a 210 pounds, six foot, four 37-year-old man. But when I roll with you, I feel like I'm with my dad and I'm like six years old because you're, you have so much power in what you're doing that you let me get any position that I want start and then I can't submit you and you can just kind of laugh as you roll me around. So the reason I'm going through all this explanation is it is difficult for me to imagine you walking into a place and looking foolish at juujitsu. But everyone that is an expert at it had the same experience that you did about just getting their ass Oh yeah. Handed to them. Yeah. That's how it goes. It's iron sharpens iron. There's no other way. If you go to, okay, so if you do ju jit and you're listening to this, you always need to train with the people that kick your ass. There's no other way to be able to be that person. You know? So if you, if you only train with the guys, you can, oh, I can kind of go even with this guy, good luck to you buddy.

Vance Crowe [00:38:47] To get good at it. You know, you have to put yourself through the grinder, you know, and, and embarrass yourself and Yeah. And yeah, it's kinda like that, that big fish in a small pond mentality, you can't have that in a juujitsu in Jiujitsu. It's an not ocean, you know? And everybody's fiending for themselves. You know, you wanna be the on top of the food chain. And it's incredible because size is not the determining factor in Jiujitsu. No, not at all. No. And like you go in there, so there is a guy named Bart. Yes. Who's like a tall, skinny guy. Okay, stop right there. You're talking about Dr. How, right? Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. And he will, he will. So I'll be rolling with him and he will lay on his back. Yeah. Flip his legs over his head. Yeah. And so now I'm just fighting with his feet and you would think I'm a, I'm gonna whip him, right? I'm just gonna grab his feet and push him down or do whatever. No, no, no. Bart will grab you with his feet. Yeah. Use his arms to reach out and grab your ankles and you're all done. And it doesn't matter that Bart is 35% less weight than I am. Yeah. It doesn't matter. No it doesn't. Yeah. That's, that's how jujitsu works man. And he got better because somebody else was whipping on him. Yeah. And somebody was whipping on them. So you start off, somebody has just crushed you in the Jiujitsu studio. Yeah. What's your next step? Well, I didn't thought much at first. And Mark, that was his nickname. My, my mu hai coach. He got married and he decided to retire from mu Hai Vetas. He was off and on 'cause he was fighting. So he didn't really dedicate to be coaching.

Vance Crowe [00:40:18] And that's the thing too about mediating coaching with being a fighter, it's very hard, you know, because they're focused on themselves. Yes. Not on the students. Yes. So, I mean, for anybody out there, if you wanna be able to be a competitor, a fighter and, and a coach at the same time, it's really hard. 'cause you're two, you're doing two different jobs, you know? So I think that you gotta give a hundred percent when you do something. So right now I'm giving a hundred percent of coaching, you know, and I already did my a hundred percent of the fighting. I'll still love to be able to compete someday again, but that's not on my agenda right now. You know, I mean, I see. So we have a guy in our gym right now. Yes. Orlando. Yes. Orlando as we all call him. Yes. And he is going for it. Yeah. Like he wants to be a warrior fighter. Yes. Getting, and I see how exceptionally taxing that is because every minute that you're not spending focused on getting better. Yeah. You could be put in the ring with somebody that did spend that time. Yes. And they'll whip you. Yes. And that's yes. Especially talking about the cage there. I mean, you gotta think that like Orlando, he, that's what he does pretty much all the time. And he won his, he has, he has ambition to be a, a top 10, a UFC fighter eventually. Yeah. And I mean yeah. It's, it's not So he isn't exceptionally athletic. Yeah. I mean he's like lean, fit strong. Yes. But that is not enough. Yeah. To, to like give you a path even to be able to fight in a ring. Right. Even to have anybody say, come on in here, you gotta be good enough. And then you're constantly going up against better and better and better in order to get paid to do it. So you have this long walk of suffering while you're trying to become a professional fighter.

Vance Crowe [00:41:49] So to try and be a coach at the same time, it'd be very difficult. Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's borderline possible, you know. But I mean I can still do a few maybe jujitsu tournaments here and there, you know, eventually when I feel a hundred percent, you know. But it's for me to compete at the, a high level or and to coach at the same time, I'm gonna have to sacrifice something, you know? So I'm, right now I just wanna really help people out. So what was the coach like that? Now the Muay Hai guy has retired, so what happens then? So it kind of worked out at the same time. So most of the jiujitsu came from Rio Ji Janeiro, you know, and that Sao Paulo didn't had a whole lot of jujitsu at the time, but it kind of, everything fell into place, you know, like I says, I had my first contact with my friend and then as Marco was retiring, my very first jujitsu coach move in and he actually started teaching there. His name Wasand Arlo, he was a, a brown bounder called Master Carlson Gracie, you know, and at the time Alexandre was fighting Tuto in Sao Paulo, you know, so he was actually kind of cross trained with us a little bit in, in mu Hai. He was a very open-minded guy, you know, and he understood that he needs to learn some striking as well. You know, I mean you gotta think that MMA wasn't even a thing yet. It was more like style versus style back there, you know, meaning the TaeKwonDo school would come up against the Juujitsu school or, or the other forms. Exactly. So I used to, and then I remember go watch my coach fight. He did like a four tournament until he won. And that was just mind boggling to me to see him going against these guys or look like physical specimens.

Vance Crowe [00:43:26] And they do Muay Hai and stuff and he just goes there and he clinches and takes them down and he gets mount on 'em, start punching their face at will. They turn their back and he chokes 'em. That's a pretty standard way to beat somebody in Juujitsu right there, you know? So that was the whole point. You get the mo you start hitting in the face, get your hips a little loose, the guy turn the belly down, you and you put that, that rear naked choke and chokes the guy out. You know? So to me that was fascinating how you could just, okay, so now I can actually defend myself against one person attacking me and I don't have to really hurt him. You know? That's what you saw when you saw him. Yes, yes. And I was fascinated because, because most people don't see that. They just see the struggle between two people. Yes. One person wins, one person loses. Yes. But you were sitting there being like, finally, yes, I've been searching for this thing that will help me. Yes. And this is it. Yeah. Yeah. And on top of it, I used to go watch the big tuto tournaments tu so tulo translates, everything goes right. And then the United States at the time was called no holds bar fighting. Yeah. So like back in the first UFCs when the guys weren't even wearing gloves, they were just bare knuckle fighting. Right. And they could even punch the groin and doing all that knee to the head and the ground. Ken Shamrock and Yes. Yeah, yeah. Ken Shamrock, the Shamrock Brothers, the lions den, you know, the, the Matt Hughes time. I think Matt Hughes actually came a little bit later. Yeah, A little bit, but not much. Yeah. This is when you could only see it if you got the VHS tapes. Yes. And like somebody would get him a month or two after the, the thing came out. You'd get 'em at your movie store. Yeah. Watch the tapes. No, but here's a fascinating thing. Vance, I believe you can still find on YouTube some of these, you, they used to have 16 men volley toto tournaments.

Vance Crowe [00:45:00] They all fought in one night, you know, and they were straight up, no holds barred fights. They were fighting in the ring. You can, even if the person had long hair, he could grab their hair and punch your face in if you wanted to, you know, it was some savagery. And so what is it like for you as a kid to be around such savagery? You know, I was fascinated 'cause I was around these alpha males constantly. And I think that kind of guided me to be like that because, you know, I had a, I had a pretty bad upbringing up childhood, you know? And, you know, I'm not, I, I think I think of myself when I was a kid. I think I was kind of, kind of a victim of circumstance. And I felt, I, as a kid, I realized I don't wanna be a victim anymore. I wanna be like these guys, you know? 'cause I, I could see these guys, all these guys, the fighters, everybody, they, they have control of what they're doing. You know? They have fulfillment in their life and they, they, they have purpose, you know, they're warriors. Man. That's like the ultimate mentality for a male, I think, you know, to have that, you know? And, and you were feeling like before you found this Yeah. You, you were looking at the world and saying, it's not fair. It's not my fault. Exactly. I was one of these, sorry, pussys, idiots feeling sorry for myself. You know what drives that? So why is that the default state? Oh, man. I guess with my upbringing, childhood, I'd rather not really talk about that much. You know, love my parents, man. They did the best to raise me, you know? But, you know, it's just like, I felt like nobody really listened to me and I have to do something for myself, you know?

Vance Crowe [00:46:32] So that's kind of like what I did. And like I said, when I was around these guys, and I'm seeing all this, okay, this is kind of like what I wanna do, you know? And you know, when I see these 6, 6 16 men tuto tournaments, man, I, I'll never forget this one guy, okay? He was the guy who was really skinny, like Bart, okay. Maybe a little more muscular, more fit than Bart. And I remember this guy and took a beating every single one in the fights. And every single one of his fights, he went with a triangle choke. Oh, and a triangle choke is where you wrap your leg around the back of the neck, the same way that the guillotine cuts off your circulation when you're doing it with your legs. So the power is Yes. Infinitely more, it feels like. Exactly. And that completely blew my mind. And there wasn't like, I think there was weight categories on those tuto tournaments, but I think we were 20 pound increments. So this guy, I mean, I don't know, he maybe was fighting from one 160 to 180 pound division, and he's probably like, soaking, what? 160? Okay. And he's fighting these guys. These guys are like, man, handling him. But he goes to his back and he gets a triangle, you know? So I remember, I remember looking at his face in the hand, I actually went down the stands and I saw it. I'm like, man, he's beat up, but he's a champion, you know? And at the time they were just giving these guys a trophy man, and maybe give 'em a check for like a maybe a thousand bucks or winning the whole thing, you know, going through a hell of a beating for a thousand dollars. Exactly. Exactly. You know, and, and it was style versus style. They'll make sure on that 16 man tournament, it was a karate champion, a couple era champion, hub, keto, and so on, so and so on, all these different styles.

Vance Crowe [00:48:05] And I would say, and this is a pretty conservative number, I would say 80 to 85% of the fights were won by the jiujitsu guys. Wow. Yes. It's, it's, and a lot of times, even the black belt, you see brown belts, even purple belts fighting, you know, I remember this. So you've talked about the belt system. Yes. Why don't you, why don't you explain how does the belt system work in, in martial arts in general, but in Jiujitsu specifically. Okay. So the belt system, basically, it, it takes the, the, the, the, the skill level of the student. At least in Juujitsu, that's how we determine the skill level, you know? But I can't speak for a lot of the other schools and other coaches, you know, a lot, everybody have, people have their own systems and how they approach, how they teach and rank the students, you know. But like I said, I come from that era, you know, and Juujitsu for me is a form of combat, you know? Yeah. I love all juujitsu. I love the sports side of it. I, you know, I love doing all of it, you know, but I, I believe that when I teach, when I teach you vans, you need to learn how to defend yourself. You know, you need to learn how to be a fighter, a warrior, you know? So I make sure that when I rank people is based off of if they can defend themselves or not, you know, especially the very first rank, which is the first rank from adults, the blue belt. Right? They first strives between each ranks. Some, some coaches do strive, some people, some coaches don't. You know, I like it because I think the student can kind of know he's progressing, you know? So I'll say average is maybe one or two stripes a year, and average about two to three years per rank. So that's kinda like our average out, you know? And so just to explain, yes, you have the white belt when people walk in.

Vance Crowe [00:49:40] Yes. And then when you, like you described when you know how to defend yourself, now you're a blue belt. Yes. But that is just the very beginning. Now, if a white belt goes against a blue belt, you have almost no chance of beating the blue belt in my schools. Yes. Yeah. Like, I, I mean, yeah, I mean, there is an exception. Okay. So you, if you get like a, a, a phenomenal wrestler, for example, has a good base, you're not gonna be able to submit 'em real well. I can see him smashing a lot of blue belts. You know, it just happened to A-D-C-C-A couple weeks ago. Well, but in the, in, for the most part, at least my experience has been, if I walk in there, I'm not assuming that I'm gonna lose to the blue belt. Yeah. But I know that I'm, I'm about to get a lesson Exactly. And what not to do. Exactly. And then from blue belt, it goes up to purple, purple belt. Yes. And that's the mid-level rank, right? That's the, I call that I tell every, everybody, every time I get somebody a purple belt, I look at the person in the eye says, you better not fucking quit on me right now, this, 'cause to me it's the belt of point of no return. Really? Yes. So explain that. The, the purple belt is when you start to achieve the high level, you know, it's a transition from the low level student to the high level student. So I honestly think the purple belt is the most important belt in Juujitsu, you know, because that belt's going to dictate if you're gonna become a black belt or not. You know, most people quit a white and blue, you know? And that's pretty sure about that, you know, a as my experience as a coach, and I'm sure that if you look online, that's, that's a lot of memes and jokes about that too, you know? Right. But, you know, for some people, they just wanna be proficient and they quit and understand that, you know, and purple belt is enough that, so the guy that I see at, at one of your gyms, I go on Wednesday night, guy named Steve, he has a purple belt.

Vance Crowe [00:51:16] Yes. And it feels as though there's nothing I can do to him. It's like when you get to purple belt, that's when you're a magician. Yes. And now you can do magical things. Yes. And it doesn't matter, like what position you start in the purple belt is going to win. And he's going to, and he's gonna have fun doing it. Yes. That's exactly how it's, you know, the purple belts are like, okay, this guy can actually gimme a tussle, even though they talk about my level. Okay. The purple belt can present some challenge to me now, you know? And so he's ready for that rank. Okay. And I believe, and then the other, the other ranks, the brown and the black, they're just basically, these guys are pro belts and they're training hard and they're coming through. So now he's a brown belt. And then later on he's actually, so the black belt is more like, to me it's more like, is this person responsible enough to carry my, the black belt? I represent my lineage, you know, where I came from, you know? So is that the way that somebody describes their black belt? I got a Mike Rethmeyer black belt. Yeah. I mean, yeah. The, the lineage in Juujitsu is huge. 'cause it comes back from the traditional background, from the, you know, from field of Japan and, you know, the, the futile class. And so then, and all that. So we should go back to where we left the story off then. Yeah. So you now encountered Jiujitsu. Yeah. What is the name of the school of thought that you get underneath and, and take your path up to purple and then later black belt. Okay. So I started with Ri and man, he is also an awesome coach. So I lost his one awesome coach. And another one came in. And that was, he's the same age as Marco was. You know, he was just dedicated, has so much discipline.

Vance Crowe [00:52:51] His diet, his exercise regimen, his, he's, you know, his, his wife was also a trainer and she was a yoga teacher. And then we did yoga with her. I mean, I remembered everything. I loved everything about it. And I remember he took me to my very first Jiujitsu tournament in 1994 in Osco, outside of Sao Paulo, which is like in the outskirts of Sao Paulo. I had no expectations. I was like 14 years old. And I was a big strong kid. And then I always tell that to people too. I like tell that to the white belts, I can never learn, do a triangle for my back. I had such a hard time. It took me seven months to learn how to do a triangle. But I, I pick up the Kimora Lock really fast. The Kimora lock is like a submission that I tell the kids called Chicken Wing. So you turn, the person goes chicken wing and you bend his hand behind his back, the, the famous Kimora lock. I told, Hey, what do I do this dude pull guard, go for the Kim. So I had four matches. I pull, pulling guard means you pull the person on top of you, on top of you wrap your legs around them. So yes, somebody that doesn't know about fighting, they may think I'm in charge now because this guy's on his back and I'm on top of him. Yeah. But when you know what you're doing, all of a sudden you're like, from here I can take your arm and wrap it behind your back. Yes. And there's very little you can do to stop it unless somebody's taught you how to stop it. Yeah. Yes. And exactly. You know, jujitsu's unique because you can fight from your back, you know, from your, they call the guard position, you know, in theory the guard position is a defensive position. You really wanna be on top of somebody if you're an altercation. But you can also play strategy when you compete by pulling guard.

Vance Crowe [00:54:23] So my strategy was very simple, very basic. And that's kinda like what I tell, like what I'll be telling you, if you do a tournament pull guard attack your favorite submission or your favorite sweep, you know, sweep as a reversal technique, you know. So I pull guard and I went for kimura, four matches for kimura. Wow. That my, my final match was a black bone judo, you know, but I stuck to my guns and I went for it. And then after that day, I got my little medal and I told myself, this is what I wanna do for a living. Back in 1994. I already knew what I was gonna do. How old were you? 14, 15 years old. I can't remember exactly. And was this after you had been in the fight with the kid and you're now Yes. Now you've got these problems at school. Yeah. So who are you becoming when you're in the regular world? No, I went to a different school after that. Okay. You know? Yes. You know, I, they transferred. I, I transferred. I just quit. That school didn't even kick me out. 'cause they, they knew what the circumstances were. And then, no. At that point, man, my life was complete. You know, I was in control what I was doing, you know, I had purpose, I had, I knew what I wanted to do, you know? That is profound. Yes. I wonder if most people ever have that sense of Yeah. Being able to say my life was complete. Like yes. You know, I just, I knew what I was gonna do. Nothing became very relevant to me, you know? And the point that even like if I date a girl or something, you know, I just like, sorry, I gotta do juujitsu. I can't see you tonight. So that's how I was, you know, so that was like what I basically, you know, live for. I think that that's something about discipline that most people don't understand. Yeah. Is that once you get to a place where you see what this sacrifice is that you're making for, for what you have a thing that you're going for.

Vance Crowe [00:56:00] Yeah. The sacrifice is no longer that difficult. Like as soon as you can give up the fact that like, oh, it's hard that I don't get to see my girlfriend because your eye is up on, because I wanna become a champion, or I want to, I wanna get, then going out and running is not a punishment. It's getting you a step further up that mountain lifting weights is no longer like, ugh, I gotta go do this. It's one step closer. Absolutely. So I'm a very goal-driven person, so I'm always looking for a different goal to do. And when I fulfill that goal, okay, what do I do now? And that's how I was since then, you know, so I told myself, okay, my goal is to do this. So I was striving to get good at it. So if I'll ask my coach, what do I need to do to get better, you know, oh, you need to do this, this, and this. So you need to run, you need to lift weights, you need to, you need to do, you know, at least 12 hours of jujitsu training every week. So I was doing everything. Yes. I was doing everything, you know, and 12 hours of juujitsu training. Just, just so somebody, it's not like, Hey, I'm getting in the pool and I'm swimming back and forth for 12 hours. Yeah. This is, I'm gonna learn a technique. I'm gonna do it 50 times. Yeah. Then let somebody do it 50 times to me. Yeah. Switch back, do this over and over again. And then at the end of the training, we're gonna go live and roll as hard as we can Yeah. Against one another. That is intense. Yes. 12 hours a week would be Yeah. A brutal force on your body. Yes, it would. I mean, if you can moderate it, right? And if you know how to use juujitsu properly, you're never gonna get tired or hurt. You know? So that's the, that's the thing. That's what we're talking about, the ranking. Yeah. I'm not there yet. If I did 12 hours a week at, at one point, you can start on how, how, how to roll.

Vance Crowe [00:57:33] And you're not gonna even get that. You're gonna get that tired. It's your body get well acclimated to it, you know? You know, also, back to what you were saying earlier about like, you thought about getting, lifting weights and getting strong and physically more fit before you start juujitsu. Man, I seen people, I, I remember back when I moved to the US and I was training with my coach here for a while. I remember this guy that came and trained with us. He was in the top 50, the Iron Man, you know, and the guy was dying doing jiu-jitsu with us. You know, so it's a different type of, of fitness, you know, so you, you, you can go run, you can go lift weights, you can do CrossFit, you come to Jujitsu's, still gonna die, you know? Yeah. And I think one of the pieces of advice, so when we are rolling Yeah. The thing that you're always saying to me is, quit holding your breath. Yes. Quit holding your breath. Yes. Which is one of those things that I've only just now begun to do that. Yeah. But that took me six months. Yeah. It took a while of, of rolling. I don't know, I'm probably about four or five hours a week, and I still want to grab onto your collar and hold my breath as I pull it to the side. And as your coach, when I'm training with you, I'll tell you that I, I see that. Like, okay, try to relax, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to help you out right now. You know? And, and that's what you can't see when you've never rolled, you've never done juujitsu. Yeah. You don't know that there are some people there that they're not, it's, it's like swimming or drowning, right? Yeah. Like the, when you first get there, all you can do is flail around with your arms in the air and you don't know how to hold your body so it'll float. And so you're gasping for air, but once you know how to tread water, you're fine.

Vance Crowe [00:59:04] Absolutely. It's not that big of a deal. Yeah, that's exactly how it works, is getting acclimated. So it's beyond just teaching you technique or a fancy technique or you, you getting a DVD of some super grappler and learning this stuff, great. You wanna do that, be good at it. You know, there are hundreds of use of techniques out there, styles and strategies types, and, but it only boils down to you setting up a handful of most you to be good at, you know? And so how long did it take you to go from white belt? You know, I got my ass kicked, but now I'm gonna start walking in here and, and do this to getting your blue belt. What was that part of your journey? Because I'm in that right now, and I'm fine with it. I'm in no hurry, but it does feel like I'm crossing the Sahara barefoot. Yeah. Yeah. So here's a, here's the best thing, Vance, this is probably the best advice I can give you. And anybody listening to this podcast, man, just enjoy the journey. Jujitsu's a journey. It's not a, it's not a sprint, you know, and tried to learn one thing at a time. So when I see, okay, so we're talking about Bart earlier, right? Dr. House, right? Yeah. So Bart was the fastest purple belt ever promoted. I believe Bart went from blue the purple within a year, year and a half. Why? Because he listened to what I told him. I says, pick a few moves and get good at him. Next thing he's doing that I watch him roll the students, he's doing that, he's going against me. He does it. He goes to the tournament, submits everybody, like doing a triangle, pulling guard and going for a spider guard. You know? So I'm like, he's getting juujitsu. So he's ready for that. I think he achieved the mid-level rank pretty fast, you know?

Vance Crowe [01:00:38] So now it's a, it's a part of him transitioning to that, getting that confidence that getting that, that responsibility. And okay, for those who don't know, that bar lives in Carlisle, Illinois, and he drives all the way to Belleville, Illinois to train with me. You know? So how long of a drive is that? Ah, man. I would say well over an hour. Whoa. Yes. Let's say hour, 15 hour, 20 minutes dedication. Yes. And he would also draft to the other school on Telegraph, you know, so to me, I can tell that he really wants to do this, you know, and so I'm also pay attention on that. So if I see the person's very dedicated like him, the ranking will come faster. I'm not so concerned about them winning tournaments. I just wanna make sure two main factors is if they're getting proficient at the techniques, they're, they're, they're building their game, their core techniques and their dedication level. You know, if I see the student once a week or so, it's fine, but you know, you're gonna progress a little bit slower. But Bart no bartis, even though he's telling me he's doing his huge job right now, you know, and I'm just thinking in my head, man, he's got a, he's got a wife, he's got kids, you know, and he's the kind of guy he is. He doesn't gimme any excuses. He's there. If I go there tonight, he's gonna be there. I think that that's another interesting difference between Yeah. Weightlifting or running. Yes. Which I do both of those. And Juujitsu is, when you go to Juujitsu, there is a sort of cleansing of your mind, because whatever you were thinking about when you came in, no matter how hard your work was, no matter what's going on with your family, you go in there and you can still have it on your mind until you start rolling. And then if you're not thinking about the guy you're rolling with right there in the present moment, you're gonna get choked.

Vance Crowe [01:02:14] Yeah. And so it's, it's a hundred percent focus and that washes everything out. And so then when you leave there, you have a, I have a level of tranquility Yes. About like, what are my actual problems? Yes. What are the things I actually need to be focused on? Yeah. It makes me so much more present in the moment. Yeah. Because I was there kind of on that edge chaos where you're fighting and getting better. Exactly. Exactly. Gives you self-control. It gives you, what do you call it? It gives you peace, you know, like the shirt here, you know? Yeah. Oh, hey, there you go. Peace int juujitsu jitsu. There you go. W when you were enjoying the journey when you were a white belt, yeah. This is something you knew instinctively, Hey, I'm just on the journey. Or you had a goal and so you became relentless, or how does this work? No, man, I just took a step at a time. I never, you know, one of my good friends do it here in the us you know, when I trained with my former coach that when I moved here, he told me something that stuck with me. And I tell that to people all the time. It's probably one of the best things I ever heard from some, one of my teammates. He says, train with no expectations, don't have any expectations, and then you'll be fine. You know, the moment you put expectations, you know, or, or you know, it makes everything very difficult. You know, it makes, it makes you get disappointed, you know? And that's an interesting thing. Yes. 'cause when you're a kid, I remember when people would be like, your life will be a lot better if you don't expect very much from other people. And I was always like, well then you're not setting yourself. Yeah. Your sights high enough. But in Juujitsu, I think the reason that that's so true is if you have expectations, you are not in the moment.

Vance Crowe [01:03:49] Yes. And the only way to do Juujitsu is in the present moment. Doesn't matter what happened, doesn't matter what's gonna happen. Yeah. It's what is going on right now. Yes. I recently just had these two awful hip surgeries. Right. I had to replace both my hips, you know, throughout. Do you think because of Juujitsu, part of it. The doctors told me it had to be genetics. I mean, it had to be arthritis passed on, you know. But I was, I'm not gonna lie, I was depressed, man. I was miserable and a lot of pain. And it was hard for me. It was hard for my family to see that hard for my students. 'cause a lot of times I couldn't even do things. And when did it happen? When did you start having enough pain that you had to go to a surgery? Okay, so it started back, I had a staph infection on my groin back in 2015. Around this time, around September. Really? 2015? Yes. September, October. And I didn't pay much attention to it. I thought I was, had the flu. So I was having this high fever. It took me a few days to get to the hospital. I got to the hospital. I was almost dying. I was already septic. Oh my God. Yeah. So I had a 50 50 chance to live. And I didn't know that. I, I remember it was pretty bad. I mean, and I remember them isolating me in a room. And I remember these people wearing like masks and hazmat suits and those big face masks with surgery, face masks. And I remember they start, I guess, pumping me with antibiotics. And I remember everything just going blurry, you know. Wait, wait. Is this not very long ago? Yeah, it was 2015. You have kids? Yes. So you literally thought you were going, you could die. Yes. And you had kids. Yeah. Whoa.

Vance Crowe [01:05:21] Yeah. And I mean, I, I was just such an idiot. I was, I thought I only had the flu, man. 'cause I was having these symptoms and I was the kind of person, I suck up everything, you know? But I, I, I learned my lesson, you know, the hard way. So I called my doctor, he's my friend, and I says, Hey doc, this is what's going on. And he is like, get your ass to St. Luke's emergency room right now. And I'm like, all right. So my wife drove me there. She dropped me off. She still had to go back, pick up the kids. We didn't thought it was nothing bad. I says, okay, he's just gonna give me, it's some antibiotics. You'll be on my way. Fine. No man. These people are like, you can tell all the nurse staff got quiet, you know? It was, there was nothing going on in ER and everything. It just got quiet. People started walking away and calling. And I see these people putting gloves and, you know, do little, the little jumpsuits. You're all of a sudden become the, the virus. Like they're afraid of you. Yeah. So I kind honestly, man, I kind of blurted out for the few days because they kept pumping with antibiotics and that infection all over my body. And the worst part wasn't even that, the worst part is the infection spread out to my scrotum. And my scrotum was in excruciating pain and it became the size of a grapefruit, you know? Wow. It was really bad. You know, brother, I can relate. Yes. When I got poison ivy. So I got, I'm allergic to mangoes and I didn't know it. Yeah. So I was eating essentially poison ivy and it went everywhere too. And like the, the ability to explain to another person how much pain that is Yeah. Is, is impossible. Oh. So you know it. But anyway, so I was os ice for a few days, went back home, you know, I think that whole infection.

Vance Crowe [01:06:59] How did you get, okay, they start pumping you with drugs and you Yeah, they pumped me with drugs. I mean, I guess doxycycline and all that good stuff, you know. And they sent me home and I guess I drained for a few days, man. I was wiped out. I, I felt like crap for like two, three months, you know? It was horrible. And after that, my pain, my hip pain started like getting worse. But, so I had this big relapse, right. I was actually really overweight. And I, I was, I was like in a, in a, a really bad spot in my life, I think at the time, because I was trying to do, I was trying to please everybody, you know? And I forgot about myself. I was pretty overweight. I think I was up to 3 0 9 at the time, you know? And I didn't care about anything. And I think when that happened, it was a good thing because then it drove me to appreciate more things in life. To respect life more and to take care of myself. So what did, I did 2016, I said, you know what? Screw this man. I almost died. I wanna go ahead and train a little more, compete a little bit more now, you know. Oh, really? Yes. Made you go harder. Yes. So 2016 I won one. Oh man, let me think. 1, 2, 3. I would say about seven gold medals in the bronze in the world championship. Black Belt Master won. You know, I've never heard that before. I didn't know that I won the PanAms and Nogi PanAms, you know, that year at Master one, which is like, lemme just clarify that from 30 to 5, 35 years old, you know, I was at, at the time, I was already like 37. So I went to the division age below to do it.

Vance Crowe [01:08:30] And then I won the, the, the, the international opening in Chicago. I won the, my division, the opened the class in gi. They go there in the summer and then they go in the winter. So I went there and I won both of them, you know. So you went from hospitalized, you might die. Yes. Staph infection to, I'm going to now take the, take the get to the highest echelons of this martial arts. Yeah. Because this is how my stubborn ass works. I'm like, you know what man? I feel like I'm not gonna do well now. And then I went and I trained hard and I compete and I did all that stuff, just training with my students. You know, I didn't train with some topnotch guys and or anything like that. And even the local guys around here, they're pretty good. But that's an interesting thing, because you have your own school of thought. Yeah. You have guys that you've trained. Yeah. So now you're sharpening your iron. Yeah. On iron. You sharpened. Yes. But on the downside, that's when my hip start acting up. 'cause I, I think that, okay, this is just what I think that infection spread out through my hips and what the doctors explained to me. I guess some people, when they injured their joints, their, their joints build collagen to protect itself. My joints is really good about building calcium. So, you know, me and the doctor made a joke. We always talk about that. I don't have to worry about osteoporosis because I have strong calcium formations in my bones. You know? So the doctor said, yeah, man, most likely that that inf that infection really kind of like attacked your hips a lot. And that was part of the defense that your hips had, you know? But, you know, that's kind of theoretical what we're talking about.

Vance Crowe [01:10:01] But I think that played a big impact because then I, instead of me like doing proper rehab, I, I just went hat on training, competing. And I achieve all these titles again. Which I already won so many stuff in the past. You had won things like that before. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. What have you won? I don't, you never talk about these? I don't like talk about that stuff, man. I, 'cause I do it for myself. You know, I'm not the kind of person I'm gonna brag about that kind of stuff, you know? You know, I just like, I mean, when I made the Jackie Joiner ey reference, I was, you know, being hyperbolic. But I didn't realize, so, so talk about that. What did, what champion level, you're a Brazilian kid doing Juujitsu at 14 to now. What level do you get to? I mean, yeah, at one point in the Midwest, I was ranked number one. I got back in early two thousands. I was doing all the tournaments around the Midwest. Even though St. Louis had no tournaments, you know, and it was me, the guys from Chicago, there was a bunch of guys from Ohio. You know, we're all like, Luca became friends too. You know, I'm, you know, if you guys would listening to that, man, I miss all you guys, you know. And you know, sometimes it'd be people come from Brazil, just people from Florida, you know. So there wasn't a whole lot in the United States back in the early two thousands. So I used to compete in a lot of the grappling tournaments and I made a small name for myself. I wasn't like a big hoist Gracie guy. But, you know, I like to compete a little bit and I earn respect from people, you know. And that's what it was for me a lot of times for me, just to earn respect. 'cause I felt soldiers respected throughout my whole life, you know? And I felt like when I won the title, it was basically like, I accomplished a goal, you know? But I also like losing man, believe it or not, you know, I love losing matches because then I, I, it gives me more of a goal-driven, you found what your limit was.

Vance Crowe [01:11:36] Yes. I'm like, okay, I need to train. What did I did wrong? What do I need to fix now? So I think even Juujitsu losing is actually pretty cool, you know? You know, you going back to your thing about respect. Yeah. I, I don't know how to say this without it getting a little bit awkward, but I, I just wanna say it. Yeah. Like when you walk, when I walk into that gym, everyone respects you. I know. And these are the toughest fricking guys I've ever met. Yeah. Like, and I've worked in on ships, I've worked for paving companies. Yeah. I mean, I've been in the shit and I've never known a tougher ragtag group of people. Yeah. And everybody there is like, Hey coach, what do you have to teach me? Yeah. Hey coach, this is what's going on in my life. Yeah. How did you get to the point where you went from being the kid that felt never being respected or listened to, to having a gym where people are proud to be a part of your school? Well, Vance it all boils down to the one thing, man. Be passionate about what you do. You know, I'm really passionate about what I do, man. So I think everything is just a consequence of my passion, you know? And you know, I, I have some of the students recently, they, they get telling me, oh, coach, what do I need to do to get a sponsorship to compete? Or what do I have to do to have my own club one day? I says, man, just be passionate, man. But you gotta, you gotta chase it. You know? Like when I moved here, I wanna compete. I, you know, I remember I took, when I was 21 years old. What brought you to the United States? Why did you come here? Well, I graduated high school in Brazil, debating about gonna college there. And coming up here, my dad, my dad, so my dad, he, he was doing private security on the side from his job.

Vance Crowe [01:13:14] And he met the Bush family, the he Bush family. And they're offered him a job. So I knew he was gonna move up here. Huh. That's what brought you to St. Louis? Yes. My mom, my, my dad is from Kirkwood. He was born and raised here. Oh, okay. Yeah. So it kind of was kind of like a big coincidence. At the same time, my mom moved across the country in Brazil and I didn't wanna move with her. And, you know, and I didn't know what I was gonna do with my life. I was kind of lost at the time because I knew they were gonna leave. I didn't want to go. At the time too, my jiujitsu coach Alexandre, he moved south, he got a better job offer, he left. So I had a period of time there. I stopped doing Juujitsu, you know, so I stopped for, I don't know, maybe a year or so, because it, it was, it was, it was like a turbulent time for me. So I, I knew my dad was gonna move here, so I decided to come up first, you know? And I moved in with my grandfather. He passed a few years ago. And great guy in here, in North County in Overland, you know, in St. Louis. And from there I still had to work for a while and I wasn't even training. And later on I found What were you doing for work here in the us? Just whatever I could find. I mean, my, my grandma, she had me do some side jobs with her. She did, she cleaned home. So I used to go do landscaping and, you know, just side work like that. I did a little bit of construction here and there, you know, so I liked it. You know, I don't mind doing hard work, man. I hard work. I think it's, working with your hands is very important. I think it defines a, a person. It defines a man, you know? So I like doing that, you know. And then later on, my father moved out here and then I went to go live with him, got a job.

Vance Crowe [01:14:47] My first real quote unquote job was actually working at Walmart overnight, unloading trucks, you know? Really? I loved it. Yeah. So it was awesome. And they love me 'cause I love doing it. So they throw me inside that, that 18 wheeler trailer. And I used to pick up those boxes and loading the conveyor belt all night long. Was it 'cause it was like weightlifting for you? Yeah, I love them, man. It was a workout, you know, I love working out and why not? You know, that's the exact right thing. Yes. Right? Yes. If you can turn your burden Yeah. Into a joy. Yeah. You don't have to suffer under it anymore. Yeah. Wow. That's, that's, that's great. Yeah. So for a full year I worked for them. You know, I used to volunteer for shifts too. I used to do everything, you know, I didn't mind, man. I love working. It was, it was fun. If you work and you have fun, why not, you know? Right. And then I save enough to buy a vehicle. I bought my first vehicle and then, then I started training at, with Coach Laha in St. Louis at the time, you know, he was under Hickson Gracie himself. And I was very fortunate to have him here at the time, back in 2000. So I, I, I stopped training, I guess from, say I graduated in 98 and I still kept off and on training my coach moved. So I, I had different coaches I trained with for a little bit and for a while I trained with this coach here, this coach there. But everything was far. And at the time too, I was also working for my great aunt. And then, so when you come to the US Yes. And you start training Jiujitsu here, what's your belt? What, what belt do you have? I was a blue belt. You're a blue belt? I gave me my blue belt. Yes. So I can defend myself. Yes. But I'm not a wizard yet.

Vance Crowe [01:16:18] I was a two stride blue belt. Yes. Okay. Yeah. And I tore up my knee too, so I had to get a surgery, you know, so that pulled me out. So I tore up the other knee the next year, had to put myself out. But I remember, I, I was training, I was training with my coach when I moved here and Okay. So I'm not gonna mention names because, you know, that's good. Yeah. Some people don't want me to mention some names, so I'd rather not, but, okay. So I had this, so the, the group was just like, you, you described my school, right? It's like these tough guys training. And I got there and it was like that. And I remember when I got there, I started training there in 2000. And they had a, a solid, tough group of guys there fighting MMA and Juujitsu and Winnie, everything. And man, we're like the Reapers here in the Midwest. So the, the school is really tough, you know, the coach was like super way more tougher than my coach I had in Brazil. He was from Rio too, you know, he learned directly under Hicks and Gracie. And he was like, I don't know, man. Think about like, we're like an army of like warriors, you know? And we we're just constantly like fighting in the gym. And, and so you like the toughness of your kids? Oh yeah. You're saying like, oh, hey, hey, hey, this was a step up. Oh yeah. Because this guy is, he's, if we're gonna go down to the dungeon, yes. Let's go down there and get hard. Yes. Yes. So Juujitsu fighters are known as the pit bulls of juujitsu martial arts, I'm sorry, the pit bulls of martial arts, meaning that we're the fighting dogs, you know, and we have tenacity and we're smaller. We're not, we're not a big German shepherd, but we're gonna fuck that German shepherd up.

Vance Crowe [01:17:50] Yeah. You know, so that's how we, we were known as, you know. But I also believe that you need to be respectful and, you know, like, so, okay, so outta subject a little bit. This tattoo here? Yeah, I can see it. That means Busto. Okay. Busto is the way of the warriors. The code of the samurai. Okay. The, did you ever heard about that of, of 10? Like just from the Aboves? Yeah. So the samurai was in the warrior class and field of Japan. And they, they, they live and die by this code. Okay. The code is based off in sovereign virtues. Okay. Integrity, respect, honor, duty, compassion, honesty, and lemme see the other last one. Courage. You know. So that's kinda like how I live, man. You know? So I think when I trained at that gym I had, I always had the back of my head. And some of those guys were more like, you know, we're, we're fighters. You know, we're not gonna follow martial art code of conduct, you know, oh you is there a little too tough go. They're little too tough. And I feel like there's a lot of lack of respect, you know, through a lot of the times there, you know. But regardless, I look up to everybody, man. Those guys are all warriors, you know? And, and I like, I, I know how to see a situation, good or bad, and take the best out of it. So, you know, I always look up to those guys, man. One guy I particularly, I was training with one time, I'll never forget this. So my coach used to sit by the clock and needs to be this little, he used to the, the time, the timer and used to put the timer back.

Vance Crowe [01:19:24] We're rolling, putting the timer back. We wanted to put the timer back. So we kept rolling. I remember I rolled this guy for about 12 minutes and like to put it in perspective, five minutes is long roll. Yes, yes. And I, I was young still, I was like, this is 2000. So I was like 19, 20 years old. This guy's a little older than me and he was really tough. Wrestlers like three time Missouri state champion, Juco champion, you know, so MMA fighter winning everything. So he pins me down on side control, but then he doesn't do anything. He just holds me down for like 10 minutes. And I remember, okay cool. You won. Back then there was not a whole lot of stalling rules in Juujitsu. Okay. Nowadays you can't do that. You can't hold position for more than 20 seconds. You get a stalling call, which I think is great. You know, it promotes movement and it promotes trying things going for things. Yes. So I remember the, the time we ran up and I was trying to be respectful. I look at and says, man, why don't you try something? You just held me down for like 10 minutes. He looked at me and he was like, I won, didn't I? So at the time, this particular person, he actually took like third or second at the Pan Ams. And that was a big deal. The world doesn't even come to the United States. The world was back in Brazil. The Pan Ams was the big tournament here in the United States. And Americans to get placed on that. It was very hard, you know, it was So he's a badass. Yes, he is a badass. So I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna argue, you know. So I quote him, my coach says, Hey man, why don't you, with all due respect, why don't you tell him to like try something else? 'cause we just wasted 10 minutes training there, you know? And he is like, and then my coach told me like, well he just took, you just met on the pan Am so what am I gonna tell him? So he has a valid point. But that drove me to be better than him.

Vance Crowe [01:20:57] That's right. 'cause then you can tell him what to do. Well guess what? Next year I was only training there for about less than a year. I went to the PanAm, Amazon, I took silver medal on the division above his and I, he only scored points on people. I submitted like half of my opponents, you know, iron on iron. You got your knife got sharper. Yes. Yeah. So I really appreciate those guys, man. You have no idea how much I appreciate because they drove me to be where I'm at. You know? I need that drive. I need that challenge. I need people to doubt me. You know? I love being the underdog man. I love people challenge me and, and doubting me. And, and that always gonna drive me. You know, that seems to be the thing that Yes. You have turned into. Yeah. Which I think is an important thing to, to articulate. It's all of these things that could be burdens on you. Things that you could have to carry like a cross. Yeah. That you've instead turned into something that made you stronger. Yes. And that's a mentality. Yeah. And I think that, you know, there's a concept called slaying dragons. Right? Like a dragon represents all that you fear. Yeah. But if you don't look at the dragon, then you can't fight it. And the reason you would fight it is 'cause there's gold down there. Dragons have gold. Yeah. So let's go after the dragon and kill it. And one of the things that it sounds like you do extraordinarily well is instead of hating the journey to go kill that dragon, you find a way to be like, Hey, this is cool. I'm adding this on. Yeah. And I think that's contagious. Yeah. I think when you get around other people that have that mentality, you stop looking at, there's no point when anybody's gonna give you sympathy because things aren't going your way. 'cause you didn't get the job that you were hoping for.

Vance Crowe [01:22:28] 'cause you didn't, I mean, they'll listen to you, but we're here to strengthen iron here. Like this is Exactly, this is not, we're not, we're not messing around. Yes. Yeah. But like I said, I try really hard advanced to make sure everybody has a good time and also becoming super tough. You know? Yeah. I mean, like, so in my class, so for me, when you're just training, when you're a white belt, you often train mostly with white belts. You don't only train with white belts, but within that white belt, you know, there are some people that are brand new. So you, you can really run the table on them. Then there's people that have been there in their fourth stripe or third stripe. Yeah. And they're a lot better than you when you're just starting out. But they're not so good that, that you just, it's not helpful to them. And the comradery that I have with the guys Yeah. On Wednesday night. Yeah. There's, you know, AJ and Almir and, and Lucas and Big John and Rob. Like you develop a bond with them that I see guys that I don't see just anywhere and give a man a hug while I'm walking into the, in from the parking lot. Right. Exactly. And then you're gonna go, and that's the thing that you, your gym really has, which is how do we have this interaction of two people trying to choke each other? Yeah. And then when they get done, they say, you're like me. And how do I know you're like me is 'cause you're willing to get in here and, and fight for the choke. Exactly. You know, it's funny you say that because I, I, I'm so social with all the students, you know, and a lot of times when I'm outside of my element, if, let's say if I go to a function or something with my wife, I'm the quiet guy. Are you really? Yeah. Because a lot of times, I mean, people don't understand me, man. I think that's part of the problem. You know, a lot of people think I'm crazy for doing what I do and destroying my body.

Vance Crowe [01:24:01] They don't look at it what, at my point of view, you know? So to me it's like, man, I don't have anything in common with this person. Do I have to say anything to them? You know? And I've always been a very observant person, so I like to observe people and then I'll do a small talk here and there, you know. But like you said, you're talking about how people don't understand jiujitsu and they think it's like karate and stuff, you know, it's, and then and you do find that being like an obnoxious conversation. Yeah, it does. I mean, I love talking and I can explain stuff, but you're totally right about the Yeah. I don't want to have the conversations for the thousandth time. Yeah. About what is juujitsu. Because people do look at you like you're crazy Vance, you're 37 years old, you're a professional, you know, you stand up in suits. Yeah. Why is it that you then go put on your little outfit and go roll? Yeah. But you cannot experience that level of intensity any other way. I mean, maybe other people that are doing skiing or I would describe surfing to be really similar. Yes. Extreme sports. Yes. Like anything, any, and I would even say something like chess, anything that requires 100% of your focus, that's what juujitsu is. Only, it's like full physical. And that's, that's something that's so lacking. It was lacking in my life. I did not realize how much purpose and meaning could come from this struggle to try and learn how to get better at something. Vince, aren't you afraid how society is turned into nowadays? Man, how, you know, I guess people don't have any ambition, you know, or I mean, their ambition is driven by, you know, you grow up, you go to school, you graduate, you get a job, you work 2 65 years old, then you're, and then you die when you're 72.

Vance Crowe [01:25:36] You know? That's scary, man. I think people were sold on this fairy tale of when you finally get to your job or your wife or your kids, that then everything will, then you'll be happy. And like what people realize as they start getting success is this success, the only thing it did was teach me what did I have to do to get here. It doesn't make me happy. I have to, in order to be happy, I have to still be progressing towards something else. Absolutely. And I think those people that think I need to relax or I want to have more time off, those are the people that end up feeling meaningless. Yeah. Because they, they don't have something that they're pushing towards. Yeah. You know, it's, it's like I, you know, when the people contact me about joining the school, man, I try to be very upfront with them and tell 'em how things are done. You know, I explain to them that this is not an overnight gig. It is not the instant gratification, you know, it's not gonna be like everybody's gonna get a first place medal or your belt's gonna come in within six months because you're gonna pay me, you know, an additional $500 for your belt. You know, which quote unquote, a lot of martial short gyms do that kind of stuff. Do they? Yes. I mean, I only have experience of yours, so I don't really know. So a lot of people will sell the belts out. You know, to me the belt is meaningless if you don't have the skill. You know, I used to do a, because you could go out and buy yourself a black belt and wear it around if you wanted to. Exactly. But it doesn't mean anything. There's a, there's this really funny video that all the juice community ridiculitis is this one guy, we'll put it up. So we'll put it right here as your, so tell me what it, what, what look like, so there's a guy, you know, I'm sure a lot of people listening to this, they, they know what I'm talking about.

Vance Crowe [01:27:10] There's a guy that he puts a brown belt on his own waist. Yes. And he says, in no man will ever put a belt on me. You know, and I'm like, great. Good for you man. But the, the point is, you wanna make sure that when you're a brown belt, you, you gotta be up to par with the other brown belts out there. It's like you just told me like, I don't see anybody really like beating you up anymore. Right. I can probably go with any black belt out there and I'm not gonna say I'm gonna beat 'em or they might beat me, but I'll be able to give him a challenge. Right. You know? Right. So that's, that's where I, that's where you should be at. You know, I don't expect you to be the world champion, the the top tier, the 1% guy winning everything, but I wanna make sure you're tough enough to present challenge, man. Well, and that goes exactly to what you were saying about the purposelessness of people, right? Yes. If you don't have something Yeah. Where you get to take your full self Yeah. And put it all the way in. Yeah. Then you don't really know what you're capable of. No. You know, and it doesn't have to be jiu-jitsu, it's not for everybody. Right. But like, that's the cool thing about it is that like if I go into a meeting, right, and I want to disagree with somebody in an argument, if I just blast them out, if I just roll over them with an argument, like, yeah, you may win that argument, but they're gonna be so pissed off at you and everybody's gonna hate you from that meeting that it doesn't, you don't get to go full blast. Yeah. So this experience of juujitsu being like, here you go, here is a ironically a safe space. If you follow these rules you can go this hard and now you get to hang out with this cool group of people that's gonna love you for the only reason that you're showing up and doing it too.

Vance Crowe [01:28:43] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's how pretty much it works. I mean, it's controlled violence. Right? That's what I heard that term a few times, you know, I like it to say it, you know, or like was a Jocko Wheeling said, you know, was it discipline equals freedom. Discipline equals freedom. Yeah. That's a powerful line. Yeah, it is. It is. You know, I always tease Jared a little bit about that, but hey man, I think that Jared understand that one of the students you met Jared. Oh yeah. I've watched his transformation. I mean he was good before. Yes. Yeah. But something clicked in his brain. Yeah. And you see him Yes. Tightening down what he eats, tightening down his Yes. Lifting routine. Then he shows up and you know what Jared is, is, I don't wanna say kinder, that's not the right word. He is more observant of the people below him. Yes. Than he was before. Yeah. And so it's, it's ironic in the sense that he could do more harm to me right now. But instead he's saying, here, let me show you the position, let me show you, you watch that transformation happen in a person. Yeah. It's amazing. Absolutely. It's, it's inspiring. Yeah. Jerry lost a lot of weight, man. He's very dis like, like Dr. How super disciplined. He's always training, you know, I remember when I gave him his blue belt, man, it was the same thing. You know, he was there five days a week. Hugo, I think he lives in Collinsville and he was driving to Bellville all the nights I was there and he was driving to South County all the nights I was there. So at one point Jared still trains about four or five days a week. And he, back then it was like six days a week. And then he was going and competing and he was listening and you know, he was doing everything and he was working out and pul this food and his, and his and I, I love seeing that.

Vance Crowe [01:30:16] I lo I love seeing people finding fulfillment in their life. And that drives me to, you know, to be a better coach to everybody. And, and I joke around with the guys a lot, you know, and, but I joke with you guys 'cause I really like you guys, man. It's not, it's nothing. Oh, I mean, I think it's, it reminds me of being in the high school crew that you had before your college crew. You know, another interesting experience is watching another white belt walk in. So I'm still a white belt, but when I walked in six months ago, I am a lot further along than I was before. And I, there's this new guy named Josh, and I was with Josh when he first came in. I think his dad brought him in. He had long hair, he had a bunch of piercings and he did not want to be there. He was just kind of doing it. 'cause his dad wanted him to. And now a couple weeks later, I show up at class and there he is. His hair's cut short, his piercings are out and he's brand new, but he is willing to go hard. He was there last night. Was he? I mean, that's exactly right. Yeah. And so you hear a guy that, here he is like, you know, 20 something, trying to figure out his way in the world. Am I gonna go to college? What am I gonna do? And, and I, I wouldn't maybe have that much in common with a guy like that. Yeah. Except for we both show up and we're both like, I'm try and learn. I'm, I'm gonna keep doing this thing. That is, and that's what another thing that I think is so amazing about Jiujitsu is it creates this community where you can have shared meaning. Yeah. Because not only does Jared wanna get better, so does Josh, so does Lando. Yeah. You know, so does Elvin and, and Vance. I took me a long time to understand that. You know, at first, when I started being a coach myself, I mean, I started teaching in my old, my, my old coaches, the, the one coach that I had here for a while in his school.

Vance Crowe [01:31:55] But eventually I started in O'Fallon, Illinois teaching the community center in oh six. And at first I always saw, no, I am a general, we're gonna, I'm gonna build an army. I had that mentality, I'm gonna train soldiers, you know, and later on, and then, then from 2006 to 2009, I opened up my, my, my Bellevue And Jim, by the way, I did lost my job. My wife was pregnant with my second kid. Oh man. I was super poor, man. I was living in li me, I had a really crappy home. You know, people like my house got robbed. I almost, people trying to vape my house at night, you know, it, it was crazy. There was a bunch of crazy stuff going on. And then I lost my job and I was in limbo. I was teaching my side gig. I was teaching Juujitsu twice a week at the, the Katy Kevins Community Center in O'Fallon, Illinois. I was driving from South County all the way, thought I was about 45 minute drive one way. You know? So at the time I had about 18, 16, 18 students and I was in doubt. I had some severance money and I, I was in doubt if I should have opened up a jiujitsu school or keep looking for a job. I keep getting job interviews, but I, I was, I was getting job offers, but people needed that couldn't match what I made before. And I had a family, you know, I had Alex, my oldest were born and Amy was pregnant with, with Ethan. And I'm like, no man, I need benefits. I need this. And then, so I was turning them down and I kept looking, looking, looking. So everything kind of worked out, man. I found this awesome landlord in Belleville. And first I was trying to go to a property management group. But then I went, for some reason, I, I, I forgot how I ran into the landlord and he wanted to work things out with me.

Vance Crowe [01:33:27] He didn't even open lease for a year to see how things went. Wow. Yes. You know? 'cause the guy was kind of desperate. A lot lower risk for you. Yes. More risk for him. Yes. He was desperate to rent a place. You know, the place was vacant for a long time. So he did it. And I had just enough students. He kinda worked with me, man. I had to show him the students how I'm gonna do things to make sure he's getting the income for the rent. So he did gimme the rent, man. And you know, his name is Mr. Veneer man. I'm very blessed, you know, that I had him come into my life at the time back in oh nine. And I had the support of the students, man. And, and so you're imagining I'm gonna turn them into soldiers? Yes. I, well, this was back in oh six and in oh nine. Yes. Until the, I my mentality was still like, we're all gonna be pit bulls, we're all gonna be lions. You know? So that was my mentality, you know, at the time. And, and then yeah, I, so then I, I opened up the club, no expectations, like I told you. And then at the time, I got a, a side gig being a bouncer, you know, up in the central west end, you know. Wow. Because I bounced that for several years and I was bouncing in the club. The owners really liked me. So I was bouncing, I guess Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday nights. And I still teaching juujitsu every day. Are you legit having to deal with people when you're bouncing? Oh yeah. Are there people that get into fights? Oh, and you gotta take 'em out. Oh, I got sucker punch. I got, you know, people, him in the back of my head and, you know, I had people try to tackle me down. And this is the way you're paying for your wife and kids. Yes. Is to, is to be a, I was collecting is to be a thug, like a professional thug. It sucked 'cause I was getting unemployment, but the, the, the club was paying me with a check. So that was getting ducked outta my employment. So, man, I was so poor at the time.

Vance Crowe [01:34:59] And, but I was poor my whole, most of my life, you know. And I even tell people my, my diet regimen for competing was like cans of tuna and, and with hot sauce. Oh man. Yes. That's, that's, that was my protein. You know? And you're competing against guys that are eating lean meats and Yes, yes. I, yeah. It's kind of like, and then I, I mean I beat top tier guys before, you know, like one of the guys just took second year. DCI beat the guy before, you know, so, you know, I, I was going against guys like that and, you know, trying to beat, eat as healthy as possible. I was, I was buying like, you know, bananas and, and now you're having a gym where you're saying, Hey, I'll train you to fight. Yeah. But I need you guys to show up 'cause I need this gym to work. Yeah. Yeah. And then how did you then grow it from 16 people from a community center to you have this gym to now be in. Okay. Be in BJJ Lifestyle Academy. Okay. So this is good for the folks that aspire to open up a school one day. Man, you ke you don't buy more than you can chew because you gotta start small. You gotta plant that seed, you know, and then start with a community center. Start teaching, build a clientele. Very important to build up your name, you know, so it's good for you to compete. And man, I used to max out credit cards paying for my tournaments, you know, and making minimum payments. 'cause that's what I had to do to get there. You know, I then had sponsors. I was waning titles and, you know, and, but I didn't have any sponsor or anything like that. So I was actually like sacrificing a lot. You that's a hell of a risk. Yes. I was sacrificed. It's well, well no great risk.

Vance Crowe [01:36:30] No, no, no. Great sacrifice. No, no reward. Right? That's right. So I, I was trying my hardest and you know, and competing in all these competitions and I did a little bit of MMA too, just to test myself out. I did pretty well. You know, I only competing in MMA for one year and I was a purple belt. But anyway, I kept sacrificing a lot to build some type of a name man. And so I would have to work really hard. Nothing is overnight. People think it was overnight. Good luck. You know, even I think I can speak for most small business owners. 'cause what it is a small business failed within the first year. You know, so my Bellville club just got its 10th anniversary this year in the South county. Fifth, I guess in martial arts, from what I read, eight years is like, you're not gonna go anywhere. If you, if you made through the first eight years, you're gonna be there for good. Well 'cause you have guys that are now Yeah. At the black belt level. Yeah. That they started Yes. With you, right? Yes. From scratch. Yes. And knowing nothing. And so let's talk about that for just a second. Yeah. Earlier you said, when I give somebody a black belt, I'm giving them my lineage, essentially. Yes. Yeah. And so tell me about what that's like to say you have achieved at a high enough level. How much time have they spent with you? How well do you know the person that you have up giving a black belt to? Well, I, I look at a different, I look at it different ways. Okay. So I do look at their age, you know, so I, I don't expect a younger kid to get a black belt fast because I wanna make, make sure they're mature enough to carry the black belt. You know, for, for a younger kid to, to carry the black belt, they need to be super responsible and or they have to be a fantastic top tier champion.

Vance Crowe [01:38:04] I don't have any of those in my school right now. You know, I have some really tough guys and they can be very competitive, but I don't have like a top level. And what's that other, that Josh kid, that little kid? He's good. Yeah. He's really, really good. Yes. Yes. He's, he's, he's good. He's, you know, a little 15 year olds put me in a triangle choke more than once. Yeah. Josh Craigle. Yeah. He started with me since he was a little boy. Wow. You know? Yeah. And he, he absorbs everything as a sponge. You know, the kid's fantastic. You know, his dad and his mom is very supportive. You know, I, I, I wish I had parents were supportive like he did, you know. So I have other friends too. I have another friend too that I used to train with me in the old days, and he's a big champion now too. And his parents supported him a lot. So I see how important it's the parents support that the parents will take him. Like Josh's parents took him to Japan to compete before. Wow. You know, which to me that's like, wow. It's mind boggling. I think they're taking him to the Europeans next year to compete. I think it's in Portugal, you know? And you know what? That kid shows up. He's the most respectful kid Yes. I've ever met. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. He's he's kind, he's quiet. Yes. He's observant. Yes. He's very observant. Very focused. You know, he's got the quality to become a topnotch grappler For sure. You know, so the, with the black belts, if they're older, they generally have mellowed out by the time they've gotten to the level that they're close to getting a black belt. Yeah. I mean, the black belts that I have right now, were Neil Winkler, Anthony Bird and Morgan. Anthony and Morgan, yeah. Yes, yes. All three of those guys, man, they're guys I look up to, man. And I look at 'em as my equals. And they, I'm not saying nobody's not equal to me, but I'm thinking like, okay, so these guys, man, they have busy lives.

Vance Crowe [01:39:38] They have families and they, they're never gonna gimme some bullshit excuse. They're gonna train, they're gonna be there, you know, they're gonna show up. They're gonna still compete here and there. You know, they, they live the jujitsu lifestyle, you know, so, and they're proficient. They're very good about it. I had other friends from Brazil that came up and says, man, these guys are good, Mike, when you gonna give this guy the black belt when you give this guy the black belt? So the Brazilian guys are telling me that, like, okay, so I guess he's ready, you know, so, and they're super responsible guys, man. And I really look up to all three, three of them, you know, you know, that's a a a great example Yes. Of the ti the thing that you have to be willing to do in order to get your black belt. Yeah. The very first thing is to walk in the door. Yes. Right. And most people, I wouldn't, you know, I I, and it's probably worth me telling how I got to your studio. Yeah. But the way that it happened was, my buddy Rob Long and I we're very good friends. We, we focus on how can we get better today and tomorrow. We're doing that all the time. And he just on his own, decided he was gonna do Juujitsu. I think he mentioned it to me offhandedly, but I was like, that's not for me. Yeah. So he calls up his buddy that does Combatives. He teaches military people from all over the world how to, how to do hand to hand combat so his buddy knows his stuff. And that guy, when Rob asked him, I wanna start doing Jiujitsu, where should I go? He's like, you should go to Mike. Okay. This, this is the place that you should go. Yeah. So out of all the, all the trainers anywhere, he was like, this is, you're real lucky that you're in St. Louis 'cause you can go here. Just having heard that it actually made walking in the door more frightening. Mm. And I wish it hadn't 'cause it, it pushed me back.

Vance Crowe [01:41:10] Yeah. Three months or so to, to walk in. 'cause it is so scary that you're gonna walk in and you're gonna embarrass yourself and the other people are gonna beat you or you're gonna look foolish. But you compare that with, the other day I was at open mats and the bird, Anthony, Anthony Bird, he, he ends up watching me roll with another white belt. And I have this sense of like joy while he's watching. Yeah. Because I'm like, there's a chance that he's gonna watch what I'm doing and then tell me how to get better. And that's the thing that flips, it's like being, going from that fear thing of being embarrassed. Yeah. To then hoping the best, one of the best guys in there will watch you to help you get better. Yeah. That's when you that that, that's the thing that you can't tell somebody about that sensation. It only happens if you're there live having somebody that's that that is at his level, take the time to watch you fight. Yeah, no, I know exactly what you're talking about. 'cause that's how I was when my coaches were watching me, you know? So yeah. I mean, like I said, everything is a journey, man. You know, and, and I'm always paying attention to all the students, you know. I know Bird does help me a lot with him. Morgan does it even like Jason Conway, he's not a friend of mine. He comes up, he's a black boy. He trains with us pretty much Saturdays. Oh yeah. Yes. Oh yeah. That dude, he's a praying Manus. Yes. That's another amazing thing about Juujitsu is that everyone, because they come with a different body size. Yeah. Because they come with different body mechanics. Yeah. They all have their own spin.

Vance Crowe [01:42:42] Exactly. On the school that you have. Yeah. So we were talking before about Bart, but, but this other guy, you were just saying the other black belt that comes in, what's his name again? Jason. Right? Conway. Yes. Yeah. And I mean, he's like a praying mantis. Yes. He's not big, he's not bulky, but once he climbs on top of you. Yeah. And it's like being slowly squeezed and it's, it's one of those great experiences of getting choked out by all these different people. 'cause you're like, look at all of these different ways to improvise. It's like jazz and chess at the same time. Exactly. I, a lot of people refer to just as human chess, you know, to basically, you gotta understand how to move, apply your movements and stand a step ahead of your opponent. A lot of anticipation, you know, and everything is based off in leverage and movement, you know. So what was it like for you when your hips started having these problems? You are the man, people come to your gym because you're the man and now your body is breaking down. What's that like? Oh man, it was like my, the door, the the wall was closing in, I felt like was, you know, like I was in a trash compactor in Star Wars, man. Everything kept closing in closing, in closing in the pain kept, you know, taking over. And I, I had, so I'm What took you so long to get a surgery? Man, I think it was just, I thought that I could do all these other treatments and maybe it work. Maybe it will, maybe I should have just jumped right in. Honestly. You know, I made a big mistake. I mean, I was like, the, the, the pain was controlling my life. I mean, I remember even my judgment was clouded. I got K crabby really easy. Some of the parents even told me, like, after my surgery met one of, one of the moms of the, these two little kids that trained me in Bellville told me, she flat out told me, I, I love when people tell me what they see, you know?

Vance Crowe [01:44:22] 'cause it tells me like, you a lot less k crabby now she told me that. So I was like, that's good that that's result right there. You know? But the, it does make you reflect like, who was I when I was under this pain? Yeah. Yeah. It was weird. Vance. I mean, after the pain was pretty much gone. I still have some, you know, but I mean, everything was clouded. You know, I couldn't think. Right. I couldn't speak properly. I couldn't even articulate our conversation like we're right now. It was, it was hard for me because I was in constant pain even sitting down. How was your relationship with your family? It was awful. You know, to the point that I had to ask my doctor for prescription, me for mental illness, you know, for me to be able to handle the stress handle even like talk to my family and help, help things out, man. That's when I realized I need to do surgery. You know? I mean, I tried stem cell therapy. I tried PRP, I tried cortisone shots. And reality is when you have, you know, advanced osteoarthritis in your hips, you need to just get the surgery done to be over with, you know? And that's what I did. I did hip resurfacing. It called the Birmingham hips surface. I did one in the end of November last year, and I did one in mid-March this year. So both of the hips are Yes, both of the hips. Yes. I still need to operate on both my elbows that I know of. And I'm, I'm gonna, I'm postponing that right now. And my should has been acting up too. So, dude, I've been telling you this for a long time, but we, I tried to have my wife be here for this because my wife is like the best physical therapist in the world. I believe you. Like she's an aerospace engineer, turned physical therapist. And you know how you talked about your passion being like, I wanna learn how to choke people and fight.

Vance Crowe [01:45:56] Yeah. Her passion was, I know that if you change somebody how to move differently Yeah. It will change how they interpret pain. And it's how, how they handle it. And it, I, I have seen miracles happen. We walk down the street and somebody will see her, that's one of her patients. And they will hug her and hold her arms and like, and they're like, this woman changed my life. So anyway, I digress. But my wife, we gotta we gotta get you set up there, man. Oh, let's do it. I'm waiting for it because she's the best. Yeah. I'm excited. What should other people be afraid of as far as injuries when with juujitsu? Well, because I got, I got a shiner over here somewhere. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. Okay. So we'll talk about Orlando earlier, right? So Orlando telling me, coach, my elbow's hurting, dude, just take off two weeks, man. Do the therapy. You know, do some therapy. If you don't have a physical therapist, go online study. I sometimes I send videos to him. Do this, learn from others' mistakes. So if, if, if I see any student listening to this right now, any, you're just a practitioner. If you're hurt, don't power through it. Just take a week off or so, you know, call your doctor. Maybe he can give you some anti-inflammatory or something and tell to lay off elevate, you know, do the whole rise thing, right? Yeah. And it's this, it's this difficulty though because yeah, you've got a passion. You're feeling like, Hey, I want to keep going up the hill. Yeah. And and truly there's that voice in your head. Yeah. That when you're, remember when you, like, certainly you've tried to jog before and then you wake up the next day and you're supposed to go jogging, but you're like, I'm a little sore. And your brain talks you outta working out. You know, you should go for a run, but you don't do it. Yeah. I think that that's what happens with people that want to get good at Juujitsu.

Vance Crowe [01:47:27] You've learned how to walk past that voice that talks you outta doing what you know you should do. But then you can take it too far. Oh no, that voice is my inner demon man. I mean, and I, I think you should listen to people that gone through it, you know, I mean, my real life experience here, but I mean a little soreness is one thing. I'm a little sore every day. Me too. But you can, if your elbow's acting up to the point, you can extend your elbow. Just take a week off. Yeah. You know, so, and there's no shame in it. No, there's no shame. It's just, you need to hear your body. How you gonna be perform if you don't have your body Right. You know? And that's how it was for the past few years. I'm trying to train. I can't, it's frustrating. I was down to just training once a week. It was on Saturdays and it was, everything was a challenge, man. Everything, even waking up was a challenge. I can even put my shoes on my socks. I still have a hard time. I'm getting there. You know, I still need to use a little shoehorn. I have this little apparatus outta PVC that I put my socks on, I slipped my foot on. You know? So I still have to do things like that, you know. Do you view that as the price everybody has to pay to Ju Juujitsu? Not necessarily. I know a lot of other peers of mine that, that I fall online. They're no have, as the body is bad or that is destroyed as mine. I think I got to heavy. And I think that's part of the problem. You know, I should have taken better care of myself, you know? And I think as long as you take care of yourself, I think you'll be fine. You know? What are you doing for eating now? You're definitely slimming down. Yeah. Like, well I am trying to, I'm doing like kind of a ketogenic diet with some fasty in the morning, you know?

Vance Crowe [01:49:01] So like I said, I'm trying to do like, yeah, you told me before we turned this thing on you, you fast till three o'clock. Yeah. Two, three o'clock most man, that means you're training at noon. Yeah. Yeah. And then in the morning I hit the gym and I've been doing a lot of full body workouts lately. I start doing back my pull-ups, my dips and all that. 'cause that'll build up all my grip strength, you know? So I try to do, I still, like, my hips still count. Like I don't trust it fully. So I can't really do a whole lot with that, you know? And, but you know, there's a lot of challenges still that I gotta face. But I think within time I think I'll get back to where I wanna be, you know? And, you know, I am excited because you're continuing to expand the gym. What is, if you, if you were to imagine the perfect gym for yourself Yeah. Looking out five, 10 years, the school continues to grow at the right pace. What is, what is your, what is the gym that you would put together if, if money were not an object? So a couple years ago, I, I went to do a seminar. I, one of my friend's gyms in Denver and Colorado. And he had this huge warehouse gym with, I don't know, man. I think one of the mat space, I'm just, just a ballpark number. I think just one mat space was a good, I don't know man, I'm really bad with that. But I would say what, 2000 square feet? Oh man. Huge. It was huge. It was a warehouse. And then he had two or three, I think it was three separate rooms with mat space who teach different classes. I would love to have something like that one day, you know, classes running all day long with multiple coaches.

Vance Crowe [01:50:33] I think they had 18 coaches and staff each class. Yeah. And then class. And then do you, would you foresee a weight room being there? And, and Yes. Yes. Weight room, a cage. Just separate MMA team, you know, like a very organized, and, but I know, I know people here in this area tried those before it, it failed. You know why? I think, I don't know, man. I think it's more because of the air, the mentality, you know? I mean, we're in the area that the, the, the gyms are striving or $10 a month gyms. So the way I look at it, that's how people reflect off on how much their value, they value their health and their fitness. You know, I think that there's, I think there's a new wave coming. You, you, you may be right about that part of it, but I'm watching people spend hundreds of dollars every week for Orange theory or for CrossFit. And I think there's not all of, not everybody that's doing those things wants to go roll. But I think there's a group of men and women, 'cause women show up and, and do this. Like men, there's not that many. Yeah. We got some tough girls. Yeah. Like, and total respect for a woman that shows up and says, I'm, I'm gonna drill with the guys. Yeah. But, but the, there are people that are paying hundreds of dollars, I think they just don't know what, what is out there. I think that once people realize that Juujitsu is something that even a guy like Vance can do, I think all of a sudden you start saying, you start seeing a lot more people show up. And I think things like Joe Rogan and Jocko Willink have done a lot Yeah. For Juujitsu. That's how I learned about it. Oh no. Trust me, when, when they started their podcast, I've been getting a lot more inquiries, especially for guys around our age, you know?

Vance Crowe [01:52:04] Right. Guys that are looking for meaning. Yes, exactly. Guys that, that are saying, there's some part of myself that I know I'm not working out hard enough. Yeah. And I, I mean, for me, the amount of meaning it's brought to my life, this, this May is a good place for us to wrap up. Yeah. 'cause I, I'm so appreciative of your time, but for me, I run and I lift and I've been, I tried, I told you I was, I ran 500 miles this year. I'm almost done with it. I'm 20, 24 miles left in that run. But nothing in my life gave me as much clarity and as much respect and an understanding of how far it is that I have to go. But to not rush for the, not rush to, to achieve it. Just be there and enjoy it. Like you said, enjoy the journey. Yeah. As this, and I would say it is transformative in my life. So I am deeply grateful that you have started your program, that you came up from Brazil, that you've made all this happen. It's made a huge difference in my life. And so have the guys at our gym. I mean, so if people wanted to find out more about your gym, they, they, if they're in St. Louis or they wanted to stop in, how do they find you? How do they, how do they learn more about your school? So my website, I have a new website up is bjj lifestyle academy.com. I'm on Instagram at BJJ Lifestyle Score Academy. And I'm on Facebook too, on the Lifestyle Academy. They can find me through any social media. I have a YouTube channel too. I teach some techniques. I need to update that. But I also offer free week trial for adults and two week free trial for children.

Vance Crowe [01:53:36] You know, they can do it, participate at both clubs, so, so they can at least have a few for it. And I believe that everybody should at least try to have a feel for it. What's the age that a parent that they're thinking, Hey, I want to get my kid in for lessons. What age should they start thinking about it? That's depends on the kid, you know, like sometimes they successfully get a 5-year-old in there, but that's kind of rare, you know? I honestly think that when a kid's in first grade, about six, seven years old, it's about the right age to start. And what kind of kid does well coming to Juujitsu, Annie. Annie, because I teach the kid children to completely differently adults. You know, what's the difference? I give 'em more discipline, more structure, more, the techniques are very basic. I don't teach anything advance with the children that way. They have a good foundation if they want to continue later on in life. They have this really solid foundation for them to, and plus the, the, the self-defense is in the basics, you know? And it would seem to me that much more of their, they do a lot less free rolling and a lot more of like, we're gonna just drill this move over and over and over again. Yeah. And then whenever we're stretching their plan tag and all that stuff. Yeah. It's, it's fun to see. I I, I like the fact that those two classes intersect. I teach 'em that if you work hard, you get rewarded. So they get to play a game in end of class. If they goof off, don't listen then. Okay. No, no game tonight. You know, I, I don't know that I've ever seen such controlled chaos as a room of kids that are all excited, but they're all listening to Coach Mike. Yeah, exactly. Coach, thank you so much for stopping by here. This was a pleasure. And I will undoubtedly have you back on the podcast. Sounds good. Thank you my friend. Thanks for coming by. Yes. Have a good day. Well, that's it for this week's interview with Mike Rethmeyer. Thank you so much for sticking around all the way to the end.

Vance Crowe [01:55:11] Six months ago, I remember walking up to the front door and opening it up so that I could go to my first BJJ class. And it was frightening. I was scared, I was in good shape. I was strong. I had good cardio strength, but I knew that I was gonna go into a place and I was gonna look foolish and I'd probably get embarrassed and I might not be good enough. And everybody might look at me funny. And I had all of these thoughts rolling around in my head for weeks, if not months before I decided to walk in that front door. But once you open it up and you cross the threshold and you make eye contact with somebody in the gym that says, how can we help you? And you say, I'm thinking about starting, the hardest part is over because you've walked past all of the voices of resistance that have told you you can't do it. You shouldn't do it. You're not gonna be capable of it. And now you're there. And once you're there, there's gonna be a group of people that all also had their first day in class when they were afraid of being foolish. And they're gonna know exactly what you're going through. And so they're gonna try and put you on the path and you'll begin to make friends and you'll start to understand the structure. And then all of the physical work, all of the habits that need to be developed, those are not so difficult. They are only things that you have to get your arms around. But the most difficult part, walking through that front door is the thing that keeps most people from trying something new. And I hope if you're out on the internet and you are trying to find podcasts to expand the way you think about things and you're trying to push yourself forward, that sometimes this leads to you trying a new skill and trying to learn something.

Vance Crowe [01:56:55] So I hope that if you have any interest at all in Brazilian Jiujitsu, and you're in the St. Louis area, that you stop by the Lifestyle Academy. But if not, go try it in your own area. And if not Juujitsu, try it in some other domain, but make it a goal to try and walk past all of those voices of resistance. Open up the door and walk towards a new skill or ability. You will be grateful that you did. Thank you so much for listening. I'm glad you've stayed here all this time. And tune in on Friday for another as the Crow Flies episode, where I will be talking about skills that can help you become a tangibly better communicator. Thanks so much and we'll see you later.