Buck Mulligan: Author of 'Adventures on Drugs' a teetotaler world traveling to experiment with drugs

Buck Mulligan [00:00:00] You can't describe LSD unless you've taken it. You can't understand it. N nothing you've read, nothing you've seen on television. You have to take it and you have to experience it. Cocaine is more or less what you expect. It is confidence up to 100. It is a very intense feeling. Everything feels amazing.

Vance Crowe [00:00:21] I'm Tim Bickett, a grain and cattle risk management advisor from Worthington, Minnesota. And you are listening to the Vance Crowe podcast. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Today we have an interview with a long time friend of mine named Buck Mulligan, who I actually didn't know was writing a book. It's called Adventures on Drugs, and it is a very different sort of book. I've actually never met anybody that decided that they were going to not do any sort of drugs or alcohol their whole life, and then decided that they would try a whole bunch of different drugs while traveling around the world in the place where those drugs are kind of endemic in that part of society. Buck is a character and he is from Ireland with this kind of deep voice and accent, and he's a lot of fun. I have to say. This podcast, it gets a little explicit. Of course, we talk about drugs and drug usage and Buck isn't saying, don't anybody ever do drugs. He has a very moderated approach. But then we also end up talking about sex and different morays and traditions around that. So if you have young people around and you don't want to have the embarrassed look on your faces as you hear awkward things talked about, then you may wanna flip this one off. There's nothing too explicit, but we definitely reference what's going on there and not a lot held back. So this is a very interesting interview.

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Vance Crowe [00:04:58] And now onto our interview with my man, Buck Mulligan. Buck Mulligan, welcome to the podcast

Buck Mulligan [00:05:05] Vance Crowe. Thank you for having me.

Vance Crowe [00:05:08] Hey, it's good to see you, man. You know, the first time I ever saw you, we were on the League of Nerds podcast. You were a co-host and that was the first podcast I'd ever done. So I'm proud to now be hosting my own podcast and having you on because you are now the author of a brand new book called Adventures on Drugs. What is that book about?

Buck Mulligan [00:05:30] So a few years ago now went through a breakup and sitting down, right, and I was thinking about things I could do or you know, it was things to keep your mind occupied and and outta the ether where, you know, everything sort of comes out of, I, I got this idea for a book called Adventures and Drug Land and I'll go on and talk about drugs and I'll maybe go meet some cartel people or do something like this here and then, but then the word, the name Adventures on Drugs sort of popped into my head now IINT total. So I had spent most of my life and never even drank alcohol. I thought it would be an interesting thing to do where if I went to the, the six countries most associated with particular drugs and try those drugs for the first time for the purposes of the book. And so that's what I did. I I went to Columbia and what you'd expect, went to October Fest, got drunk there and went to Stonehenge and, and and, and the, for winter solstice and, and tried magic mushrooms to name half of them. And so just sort of set out, talk mainly about just interesting things that I found along the way. It is also a travel book, so I talk about where I'm staying and the people I've met and, and the science and some of the politics and history and it, the, the, the culture and philosophy around drugs.

Buck Mulligan [00:07:05] So just sort of like, and like it's, it's a, it's a travel book mainly, but it's, it's, I think, I think it's interesting, got some reasonable reviews.

Vance Crowe [00:07:14] But do you not have a mother, I mean, were you not worried about I'm gonna write this book of me doing, you know, illicit activities and my mother is going to, you know, heap shame upon me?

Buck Mulligan [00:07:24] I think, I think I actually mentioned my mother actually. My, my de my dedication there at the start, which will not be fit the say reads to my parents who I hope never read this. It's, it is, it's maybe one of these things that maybe you don't bother discussing with my parents. So it's, I'm, I am, I, I think I like, I one of, I've, I've often enjoyed like traveling to places that's, I was talking today, but I was in Beirut a few years ago, and so when I went to Beirut, I, I just mentioned I was going somewhere warm. I didn't mention where I was going, so I, IIII don't rock the boat in that sense.

Vance Crowe [00:08:16] You know, when you were doing the opening, you used a word that I think I've heard in passing, maybe in old timey movies, but I, I never actually heard anybody refer to themselves as a, what, is that like a common phrase or is that an actual thing that you were

Buck Mulligan [00:08:31] No. Alright, well, so what I was, was a pioneer. So in the late 18 hundreds, which I need to fix in the fact book, put this wrong, the a movement, so there was all across the western world was, it became like tto movements basically people were staying dry. So, so the, the prohibition era was sort of born out of it as well, but ju just groups started saying, okay, now we we're gonna abstain from alcohol in any main altering substances. But the idea really took off in Ireland in the 19 hundreds and a movement called the Pioneer Startup where these people were staunchly opposed to taking any alcohol and born out of what you would expect. So it was born out of firstly as well out the sort of like the growth of like nationalism and this idea of like the Irish identity. And since Irish people sort of, there's sort of a popular quote in Chicago where a teacher asked a student, what do you know about the Irish? And the student replies, will they wear green? And they live on whiskey. So like, and and so it's like this, this is, and to people, you know, people would've cringed this idea. This is just what the Irish were known for as being drunkard and, and all the rest. And in the 1900, a very poor country.

Buck Mulligan [00:10:02] So the, the effects of alcohol was would cause there too. So you have Father Colin began the pioneers. So you were given a, a pin with the, the sacred heart on it, and you've made a pledge say, I'm gonna abstain from alcohol completely. My grandfather was one, my father was one. And then I ended up taking the pledge as well. But it's, it's fairly common like Catholic areas to when you take your confirmation that you take your pledge as well, but you take it till the age of 18. But then I took it then afterwards. So I I I'd never tasted, never took any alcohol. I think it was until this, you know, write about the first occasion in the book in do in doing that there. So that's, that's where that came out. But, but the term tea total is older. Again, it came from a like, I think a 17th century monk who had a stutter. So he was saying he was totally abs you know, totally, you know, going for total absence of alcohol, not just temper, you know, small mer. So he says total and then it, it bled out of that there and, you know, maimed in the way that words often do.

Vance Crowe [00:11:22] So when you decided to take this plunge, I feel like this is a little bit like virginity, right? Like you don't get to go back afterwards.

Buck Mulligan [00:11:30] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:11:30] So the, which was the first drug that you did and like how did you, how like was that a scary experience?

Buck Mulligan [00:11:38] Well, the first drug in the book, because I sort of like touch and everything, 'cause the first thing is, is just sort of in and around this time where I have the drag of a joint and things, I guess here. But, but the first drug I do for the book in for is cocaine. So often I, so it's fairly serious in the deep end and I, I I find myself because it, it, it's, it's funny 'cause I, I, I went to Columbia, the chance had come up a couple of times. She was there for whatever, a couple of gots of a couple of weeks because it's all over Columbia, funnily enough. And I just kept panicking and then not doing it and like, oh, okay, somebody'd offer me. And I'd go, okay, I get to, and I say, okay, I'm definitely going to do it here because it's, you know, home of Pablo Escobar, go visit his grave. It's, it's popular for people to do, from what I understand, the, the top of his grave is spread down with WD 40 to stop people from doing lines of cocaine. It's, so I, I said at that night I would do it in, but I got out and, but there's like extreme poverty there. So, and I decided to stay just in the outskirt of the city center. And so it's, it's like night of the living dead where there's people who are like, at this point, like, you know, you've been in a slum before, so you know that people barely recognizable as people and you know, screaming at one another and shouting and, and and, and life for everybody else just going on as normal shops, working away a mechanic, working away, children going to school, but just walking in amongst around them, just these people, like, just something out of a horror movie.

Buck Mulligan [00:13:37] And I went out that night and this is what was surrounding me and I went in again, just had an awful amount of fear in me and I went, no, I'm not gonna do this. 'cause my, for my silly little book, talking about drugs and, and, and you know, I was sitting outside the hostel with people shooting up just on the doorstep, you know, one man, you know, looking in between his toes to try to find somewhere to jack themself. And it's like, so I ended up not again, panicking. And it isn't, and I don't ever get into this story, but it's, it doesn't actually happen. So I, I shouldn't be allowed to book my own flights. 'cause for some reason I, I left myself a two day layover in Panama instead. So I ended up doing cocaine with an American girl I met in, in Panama. And then just, but I,

Vance Crowe [00:14:29] I mean the way you're describing this, so I've spent some time in Latin America, but I have never, like, I just was not running around in the circles where, you know, the way you're describing it's like cocaine was free flowing and you could just get it anytime you wanted.

Buck Mulligan [00:14:42] Yeah, yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:14:43] It was not my experience.

Buck Mulligan [00:14:44] Were you in a hawk? Okay. Were you in like I was in all sort like

Vance Crowe [00:14:48] No, I was working on a ship at the time.

Buck Mulligan [00:14:49] Yeah. Okay. Well we less cocaine about in the ships now. I was an all the tourist for the first portion. It was like all the touristy areas where everybody was hanging out and everybody was just drinking and stuff I guess here. So it was, yeah, so especially when you're in hostels, if you want drugs, go to a hostel, everybody knows where to get the drugs, you know, not everybody, but it's an easy enough place to find them. So if you're in the holiday areas, yeah, I'm sure it's pretty handy. But again, even, even with like the locals I was talking to there, it seemed to be a fairly, well, well the people who I was talking to while there take taking a line of cocaine seemed to like taking a, you know, talk to anywhere else, taking a beer, you know, this is just something, you know, granny would take a bee bit of cocaine just to get herself going, you know? But I don't, I don't know how representative that is from the groups that people that I was with, but yeah, it's, it's, you you would imagine just, you know, that is where it's made. So it's,

Vance Crowe [00:15:57] And so what was the experience like? I mean, I hear euphoria. I've never done cocaine because I know if I do it one time, I will do it a million times.

Buck Mulligan [00:16:07] No, again, that was the one, I done that once and I've not done it again. So I I I, my as my assumption is you'd be assembly, you'd, you'd try it and enjoy it. No, it was an extremely extreme experience. I mean, with the majority of these other things, for me it was, I'm like, I became very, or I started thinking a lot and thinking about myself and thinking about things going on and, and, you know, become very, what's, what's the word I'm looking for?

Vance Crowe [00:16:38] Introspective,

Buck Mulligan [00:16:39] Introspective, introspective. I came very introspective on, on, on most of the other drugs. No, not with cocaine, no, no introspection there I was just, it was caught a reflection of myself in the wind and thought I am God, you know, I am amazing. This is great. You know, I, there was also the American girl that went back to her room. There was a, you know, one night stand, the, the, it was the way you would want to do cocaine, you know,

Vance Crowe [00:17:09] So you're the first person that's ever said that on this podcast, buck, this is the way you'd wanna do thing

Buck Mulligan [00:17:16] Here, here to lower the tone Vance cross that I'm here for. And so, yeah, no, it was, it, it it was, i i I think with like, so something like with with LSD, you take it and it's like where people give you the description of what's on television, right? You can't describe LSD unless you've taken it. You can't understand it. N nothing you've read nothing you've seen on television, you have to take it and you have to experience it. Cocaine is more or less what you expect, you know, it, it is confidence up to 100. It is a very intense feeling. Everything feels amazing. Touch, you know, you, you feel incredible about yourself. You think insanely and confident. You just, your ability. You just, you're looking everybody around you and you think how lucky they are to be in your company. You know, you just feel fantastic and you just want to let everybody know just how great you are. You know, it, it's, it is that now there is a, an a very intense experience along with that. But it, it, it's, it is exactly what you'd expect.

Vance Crowe [00:18:27] And then what's coming down off of it. Like, because I mean, I know that if I start coming down off coffee, I'll drink so much coffee, I'll make myself shake. So I can't even imagine with cocaine,

Buck Mulligan [00:18:38] Again, the, the, the thing is right, none of my calm downs were particularly bad because I'd like done, you know, a small, again, I have a very, I obviously must have a very low tolerance as well because of the lifetime of not ever doing anything. So where whatever I'd done two bumps, you know, like it was, it was, and it was like that was all night. And then I was a bit tired the next day. But, you know, again, a very small amount. 'cause I would be a, an absolute lightweight. I'm sure

Vance Crowe [00:19:15] I, I remember, so the first time, the only time I've ever taken like a real upper was when I was in Kenya, they have this thing called cot. And so you would take it and it's like these stems from this plant that grows up in Somalia and you would chew them and it was like a mild stimulant. And I think probably the equivalent to like, what it's like to chew a COA leaf

Buck Mulligan [00:19:38] And

Vance Crowe [00:19:38] The exact feeling you're describing is, is the one that I had, although probably on a lower grade, but that like, my mind was just so sharp that I was able to think about things in the past I'd never thought of. I'd been able to like sit down and write and focus and concentrate. And I did that I think two times. And the second time that I did it, I was so exhausted from being up all night that it was a horrible hangover for me. But outside of that, like that, I think that that experience of that hangover is what's kept me from even being slightly curious about cocaine because that feeling that you're talking about the confidence and the energy and the enthusiasm. I mean, I'm already way over the top. I'm a, I'm already an 11 and so I, I don't even know, I think I'd break the scale if I did it.

Buck Mulligan [00:20:27] Yeah, I know, I believe that, I believe that we, I used to train, I do ask me how I fell into it, but I was training door to door salesmen, man. And that that is an industry which is fueled by cocaine. It is. Which doesn't because it's, it's, it's a sort of job where you have to go to a hundred doors to get five, you know, all you need your five sales in the day, but you don't need a knock. You have to deliver with a lot of rejection. And so these guys are just, you know, disappearing off the toilets and whatever pub they're nearby and then going off and doing door after door after door. So it's, it's, it's def I could definitely understand the appeal of it. Definitely understand that drive. And, and, and, you know, I could see why someone would, if, if, if you're gonna get hooked on a drug that could understand why you'd do that.

Vance Crowe [00:21:23] Out of all the drugs that you tried, which were the ones that you did have a pull towards, was there any that you were like, woo, ah, I like that a little too much?

Buck Mulligan [00:21:33] No, it, it's like I haven't really, it's like I, it's difficult because mushrooms was a, a really, really interesting experience. And so it was LSD and again, very, what it does and what I think of looking back on it, I was with a, a guy, it was at stone hen for winter solstice, n field wet as from sitting in the wet grass and uncomfortable cold. And I was with a fellow Tom and Tom, sorry Greg, sorry, Tom was his brother and he was a former drug addict. And we're sitting talking about this here. And I'd managed to get a hand of like liberty caps. So these are the mushrooms that just grow wild and you know, the fields nearby. And what he said, he said, I says, should I take it? And he says, well, are you right in there? And he points at my forehead and I went, yeah, I'm okay in there. And he goes, he goes, well it should be okay 'cause it can only really work with what you've got going on in there. Can't put anything new in there. It can only work with that. And I went, okay, fair enough. Then I take the mushrooms and I sit there and, and what it does, and I was sitting, looking at fire, I was looking at the, the fire and it was cracking and banging away as fires do.

Buck Mulligan [00:23:07] And I was like, that's amazing. Like that's, that's that bit of wood is transforming into like different types of energy. That noise that I'm hearing right now is that piece of wood, that is that piece of wood that I'm hearing right now. I'm seeing that that fires that bit of wood and it's just sitting there thinking about, it's like started getting more and more into that thought. It's like, it's that stone hge. I'm like, for how many millennia people been sitting here looking at fires? How are you connected? Am I to everything that has ever happened before? How many people have been? And I mean like, these are sort of like somewhat pedestrian thoughts, you know? But at that time, these are the most profound things. And in a level that is profound that is, is you become, to me a little towards everything because you get so used to everything around you. But I am the sort of person every so often I'll be standing at the tap and I'll turn on the water and go, that is fucking amazing clean water. You know, the, you know, for the vast majority of human existence, access to clean water has been the main thing that we've been concerned about. And now I'm had to switch on a tap. So I'm would be human being inclined towards these sorts of thoughts anyway. But what, what it done was with the mushrooms, it made everything very profound. But the things that I was thinking about I think are on a level profound. They are meaningful. Now, if you wanna sit there and think about ancient aliens and about how the aliens use lasers to build a stone Stonehenge, the mushrooms will take you down that fucking path and you'll think these are great, really important thoughts that you're having as well.

Buck Mulligan [00:24:47] So there is sort of the danger with that. And, and there is, and there is sort of that consciousness may as a complete outsider to drug culture coming in and talking about this book and talking about this experience and the fucking thing. So I, in, in my entire life, all the drugs that I've done, there's, there's people who I know who've done more drugs in a single night, like easily. I've done more drugs in a single night. So it, it's, it is just this sort of outsider perspective. And I have to appreciate that these experiences that I have, for the most part, most people are just looking to get really fucking smashed. That's, they just wanna get out of their head. But it's, you know, for me, both, for me, the, and that has been the one mushrooms I have done twice more after it, I think of, of everything.

Vance Crowe [00:25:49] And so when you think about like, the time that you've spent on mushrooms, do you feel like you went to a place, whether it's deep inside you and you pulled something back that, that changed your behavior or changed the way you thought about things going forward?

Buck Mulligan [00:26:07] I want to be very, I, I, I think I wanna be just be like very, because there's, there's people who make these sort of like big, very big claims about the potential. And, and, and I think under and my conclusion of the book is that under the right circumstances, but the right mindset and the right place and, and, and these can be like useful tools into changing your perspective and to, you know, maybe shift narrative like negative thought patterns and potentially they can be a useful tool potentially. Like the LSD was an extreme. Like, I mean, so the book is a portion, it was at, at that time a lot of the travel and stuff was a, was still a portion of me like dealing with the breakup. And when I took the, the girl who I took LSD with was going through a, a thing and the thing that I was going through, well again, if people were curious, you have to buy the book. And it was, and she, as we were like sitting in the grass and I, me, me and her were, we clicked like very quickly because we're both things people, we like talking about things, we like talking about events, we like talking about ideas. And we had been with each other for three or four days and not once asked about family, not once asked about other friends, had just asked about you had just talked about ideas the whole time.

Buck Mulligan [00:27:45] And we've taken the LSD and we're walking through Golden Gate, golden Bridge Park in San Francisco. Oh, golden Gate Park. Yeah. Golden Gate Park. So we're walking through that and then suddenly she just opens up to me in this massive way. And what she tells me, and again, I'm not gonna say she can buy the book, I just think I just like it always, the whole thing just connects up for me. 'cause for whatever reason, the book started off with, this is about connect I, and I don't know why I started it, just talking about connection within the universe and what she said to me. It just, the whole, you know, dominoes just started hitting all the lines, started connecting up, was like, holy shit, it's all connected. And this is what LSD did for me. And it was people, I mean, this is what people often say. You, you just start to notice all these connections that are around you. And where I was at that particular time and where she was at that particular time. Like we were the, the right people to be with one another doing LSD in this park at this time. And it was just a fantastic experience. And again, I, I sat and talked to her and again, I'm not a person who likes talking about feelings or emotions or anything out there. I fucking hate talking about those sorts of things. But they're just sort of like sitting on a statue in the park, just chatting to her. And, but it was as, as if I was talking about somebody else's problems, you're sort of like sitting outside your own body looking, I mean not not physically looking down, but I was, it was somebody else's issues.

Buck Mulligan [00:29:26] 'cause it's very easy to talk about somebody else's problems and not your own or total different totally different cattle of fish. But that's, that's what that allowed. So the, and again, so this was half, whatever it was, it was one half of a piece of tiny B piece of paper. So this was a, a small amount of LSD now directly after that experience, a lot of negative emotions, negative feelings, and a lot of, like, a lot of things had shifted in my, but after a time I fell back into the normal way of things and way of thinking. Right? So, so yeah, it, it as a tool for like taking me out of myself and allowing me to address some things there, there and then it, it definitely, it, it, I definitely think it helped. Now was it a long term answer? No. But then and there, yes.

Vance Crowe [00:30:30] So what do you think then of this big push right now in popular culture? We're starting to see people like Michael Pollan write books about, you know, using psychedelics. We're seeing people come out and say openly they think they should be legalized and even states themselves in the United States opening them up, the, it's all being done under the, the premise that this is allowing people to heal traumas and problems that they've had. Do you think this is a facade, like a trick in order to get the gate open? Or is this truly helping people?

Buck Mulligan [00:31:05] I I think a lot of people are full shit. I think like, largely like majority of the conversations you hear in this topic, the majority of people talking about it, the majority of like the, the, the, it's it's, I I remember talking to somebody like the people who are use the most of this stuff, who advocate most for it. Who, and again, I'm probably thinks legalization and regulation, I think that just makes sense. But my position coming down to my, my position really comes from you're funding cartels, you're funding paramilitaries, you're funding this, you're not actually doing anything. They're still widely available. It, it's the sort of sensible, but oh, we're gonna legalize drugs and it's gonna just fix everything. Shut the hell up. I mean like, the people who do most drugs are burnouts. That's the reality. The people who are like the biggest advocates for LSD are doing what exactly. I mean like, it's, it's, people will often, I think I make the reference to this in the book as well, you know, once you start to lock into like something like LSD, the first name you'll hear is Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs said that LSD taking LSD was one of the most important experiences of entire life. Now Steve Jobs done LSDA handful of times, you know, it was a handful of times he heed on it. And, and for, for every, listen Francis Heck as well, one of discovers DNA again Ls on LSD.

Buck Mulligan [00:32:41] But for every profound worthwhile or interest and thought had on some psychedelic, you have a hundred million other people going, what even is truth? Am I even real, are my hands even touching right now? You know, it it's, can these things be useful and yeah, and a and a and a a limited potential. I don't even say, yeah, potentially, potentially these things could have use and value and make you a, a a more a a a more fulfilled, better rounded person, you know? But for the most part, the vast majority of people are taking them, getting smashed, having a decent time or not. And that's what, that's, that's what's going on. And it, the danger is, well this

Vance Crowe [00:33:39] Really reminds me of my like take on on marijuana, right? Like I, there have been a few times, well not, I mean like if, if you use THC, there are a couple of times when you're doing that, when you have some experiences or some thoughts or some conversations that are, that are amazing, right? That, that you, that whatever state you're normally in, you're not capable of doing it, at least for me. But if you get to the point where you're doing it all the time, yeah,

Buck Mulligan [00:34:10] You,

Vance Crowe [00:34:10] You have this sensation of the profound because you still have this euphoria and this like aha moment and your brain is always trying to catch up with a pattern that it kind of sees. And I think that's kind of what what, you know, getting on a lot of drugs allows you to do is it allows you to see patterns that in your ordinary brain you just can't.

Buck Mulligan [00:34:31] And,

Vance Crowe [00:34:31] But the problem is that, you know, the, the definition of genius is seeing patterns that other people can't see. And the definition of madness is seeing patterns that aren't there. And, and you can get into these like cycles where you think you're seeing something so profound and when you wake up the next day from, or you come down off of being high, the pattern either wasn't anywhere near as beautiful as you thought it was, or for some reason you feel like, I know it was a good idea and I can only get it if I get back there, but I can't get it while I'm in my lucid state. So I'm, I'm very much with you. I think there is a ton of potential within the use of psychedelics and different types of drugs, but I think most of the time it's like getting drunk on sacramental wine.

Buck Mulligan [00:35:25] It's, yeah, it's, it's, I I am I don't have any like, like strong conclusions on it. Like, so when I first started writing the book, it was full of, oh, the war on drugs is really bad and the people who support it are really dumb, you know? And which is like hurt so typical and it's like, oh, it's because they're bad and they're dumb that they have this possession and, and the more that maybe you grow up and you mature a bit and stuff like that. And, and as I'm reading 'em back and went, ugh, that's actually very silly. And you take it most of these drugs that I'm talking about, cocaine, LSD Yeah. See, see sort in around a hundred year old. They're not, they're not new. They're not old. It, it's so, so societies that have never had a deal with

Vance Crowe [00:36:22] Us did, you said two things. They're bo are you saying they're new or they're old?

Buck Mulligan [00:36:26] Oh, sorry. They're not misspoke. They're, they're very new. They're not like they're LSD was invented during World War I acts to say. And then nobody realized it had any uses until after World War II acts to say something similar. Cocaine. So coco plants have obviously been around for Milan, you know, you know, for, for a very long time. But the refining process, so people actually know getting the most out of it. So they, they create a thing called coco wine where you have to take as much of the, of the cocaine out of the plant, mix it in with wine, you're fit to transport and sell it. So it was actually, it was endorsed by the Pope such and also what Coca-Cola came out of, you know, famously, but that was only in what, late 18 hundreds and em, so people are taking that as a tonic, as a, as a pain killer. And then after a while there really is, people get addicted to, people are addicted to this, you know, you know, and then start like taking it out. So it, it's, there's been like this, this massive trial. The war on drugs is exactly what you'd expect people to do. You have NN nowadays where we have, you know, we, we have more evidence, you have more science, you have more money to spend on treatment centers and clean needle clinics and, and you know, we are lucky to be in a position where we can be, be more compassionate.

Buck Mulligan [00:38:05] Whereas, you know, 80 years ago they weren't in that position. And so it, it's, they just seen a problem had arisen and it's like, okay, now we need to, we need to, you know, address this. And the way you normally address these things is with a heavy hand. It's the same people who came up with the pro, you know, the idea. It is the same ideas with, with prohibition and with, with all, all the same results. But it's, you need to sort of like come at this with, with or a, a mature, yeah. I lost train of thought here.

Vance Crowe [00:38:49] Yeah, well I mean like, so for me, when I think about, you know, the legalization or the war on drugs, for me, the, I, I'm a libertarian, right? Like I want people to be able to do what they want to do mostly because I want to be able to do what I want to do. And I think that I should extend that to other people. But I will say this, most of the problems that are gonna come with legalization of drugs are gonna come when we go from absolute prohibition. We're sending you to prison for a long, long time to, there are no rules because all you're gonna do is open up a space where people that are not trying to do it just once or twice, but people that are saying, Hey, now this opens up a gateway and I can go there and I can be a part of this drug culture. And you get a massive of people that are now, you know, a part of this whole drug scene and all of the problems that come along with that which are societal that end up causing crime, causing all sorts of other problems. And so then people are like, yeah, see exactly right there. That's why we should have prohibited it. So to me it seems like that interim stage between their illegal and now they're legal should be the one that we take slowly. Like if we're gonna head to Illegalization, step it down, don't do like ding dong, let freedom ring. Let's just make it all happen overnight. Which is why I think Oregon is absolutely insane.

Vance Crowe [00:40:21] They just sent a flag up all over the world to say, everybody come here because we're gonna open up the gates on this.

Buck Mulligan [00:40:29] What have Oregon legalized?

Vance Crowe [00:40:31] Oh, they, they pretty much, I, so I don't wanna misspeak here. They definitely opened up the doors on psychedelics, but I think they way lowered the punishment on possession of, of any kind of narcotics, heroin in those kinds of things. I don't think they're legal, but I think they've just decided we're no longer gonna put people in jail for it. And I think California would be the, the good example that for all intents and purposes, once you've done that, they are legal.

Buck Mulligan [00:40:56] Hmm. Yeah. Well that's, well that's very similar to Portugal system. So Portugal decriminalized everything. A Portugal had a massive drug problem. Portugal was the worst in Europe. So then they went about decriminalizing everything. So if you were caught by the police with an amount that was dealt this deemed for personal use, what you got was a letter, I'm sorry, you have to go into doctors and the doctors examine you probably across the board, make sure you're not actually addicted if you are. And if, if you are addicted, well then they send you off somewhere else for treatment. And if you're just, you know, someone who's, you know, buying some drugs for the weekend, they send you on your way. And that's like massively helped that support that part. 'cause they, they drug problems completely out of the, out of control. But, so I I, I think the decriminalizing of these things, I think that's probably the right first step to make. It's my fear. And this is usually the libertarians gonna disagree with it. My my bigger fear with it is, is the, and I've mentioned in the book as well, is, is it the free market with access to these things? 'cause we already know with, I mean like the cigarette companies are actively advertising towards children in the third world.

Buck Mulligan [00:42:29] They don't make a secretive, they, they put their ban, you know, billboards around schools. They, you know, with coke, when cocaine was legal, it was put into baby tooth medicine, you know, that famous one. So it, it's, so if, if you're in a system where this is like totally unregulated with no stigma around that, why don't you put something that's deep deeply, I mean, like we we're, we're already at this position where, where we now realize that how harmful and addictive sugar is and it's just in fucking everything. Whereas in Europe, where's lot, you know, tighter regulations and this stuff, you know, it's up from

Vance Crowe [00:43:10] Someone. But I would say that the other, the other side of this on at least one other side of this is right now the state of Illinois has legalized marijuana, but the way that they did this was they said, we are only gonna give licenses to a few

Buck Mulligan [00:43:23] People. Yeah. It's bullshit. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:43:25] And then what they've done is they've created an oligarchy. Yeah. Who, whoever could figure out how to get that license now, how to license to print money. And, and so you're choosing winners and these are not small winners, these are winners.

Buck Mulligan [00:43:37] Yeah. Those

Vance Crowe [00:43:37] Ares. Nothing that people want millions and millions of dollars. And so I don't, I don't really want the government making choices like that. And so the trade off that you have to have is how do you open it up without making it so the government now gets, you know, the ability to crown princes.

Buck Mulligan [00:43:54] Yeah. And in a newspaper like I saw would've been done corruptly, no doubt that, you know, there would be, you know, you know, campaign funds and trips. So suitcases full of money and stuff like that done here and there probably some cousins in relations. The, the, one of the loudest voices in the British government against legalization of cannabis is a woman whose husband grows. So for whatever reason, an enormous amount of ampt of, of the Netherlands cannabis is grown in Britain. It's illegal in Britain, but you can grow it to, for, to sail to the Netherlands in Britain. And her husband owns this, this business and legalization of it in Britain would basically sh shut them down. And she's like the loudest voice to keep it legal. So it, it's no, again, I am, you know, there, there's always, always, always gonna be problems with the system, with, with corruption, with incompetence, with, with all these sorts of things. My, my big issue as well, it, it's, when I come down to this, it's, if you, if you hear about someone's overdosing of ecstasy in Dublin or whatever, I don't, I don't care. You know, I don't, I don't care as much as I, I don't care about hearing about somebody having a heart attack and Will Oxford or whatever, somebody died, people die.

Buck Mulligan [00:45:26] My issue comes in, where I am genuinely concerned is with the, the black market that it creates with who this is fund who, you know, the organizations that this is funding, that it's, you know, it's not being regulated, it's not being taxed. It's, it's just money. An enormous amount of money that's going to criminal bodies who are, you know, putting this into weapons and street gangs and things like this. Mexico, a real fear that Mexico could become a, a cartel state. You know, it, it's, and we're not. And so that by itself is reason enough to go, okay, maybe we should legalize 'cause we're not winning this, this way.

Vance Crowe [00:46:04] How do you think, okay, so imagine in a scenario when you legalize it, how did they do drug education for kids in Ireland? Because here we had a thing called the DARE program. And all the DARE program did was be like, Hey, if you take this drug, you'll see pink elephants. And so you don't want to do that one that's really bad. And this other one, if you touch it even one time you will die. You will immediately die. And like people got a little bit older and they're like, one, I'd be down with seeing some pink elephants. Like that's okay. And then the other one is, Hey, my cousin did that drug, they didn't die. That was all a lie. We're not gonna believe any of this. So the drug education program in the United States did, I think virtually the exact opposite of what they planned for it to do.

Buck Mulligan [00:46:49] There's a, there's a famous story. It was a, a British television show called Baker Grove, and they were over for Nancy Reagan's just say no, just say no. That that song they were singing in it. But there's, there's a famous story that they, a couple of, because they're so teenagers, like, so they're on the roof of the White House smoking weed after. So yeah, no, these things don't work. I mean the, I have my my dare t-shirt sitting about in there somewhere. You know, it's, it's like my, my favorite story again mentioned the book is you may have heard about the, you know, the s it's always, you know, there's always a story of someone they take LSD and for one reason or another they jump out of a window and yeah, I, so everybody, everybody's heard that story. I, I was reading a book on LSD, it's in, in My Kitchen. My mother seen it and, and she goes, oh, Garrett, she starts telling me about a story about a girl who's seen the devil and and dare and she jumps out the window. You know, so this story is just pro prevalent. And where that story ended up coming, well that, I think the origin of that story is there's an American game show host. His daughter had jumped out the window and killed herself. And she, he claimed that she'd been on LSD at the time, as it turned out she wasn't.

Buck Mulligan [00:48:23] But then to found out, she'd done that six months previous. And then this with the whole claims about acid flashbacks, which I think I go over. I, I don't believe acid flashbacks are actually a thing.

Vance Crowe [00:48:34] Oh my God, you're blowing my mind. Because my mother used to tell this story about how she had a friend that was chased through a, like a, like a wooded area by a fly. And this used to happen like over and over again because she had flashbacks. So for me that was like, oh God, I'll never do it. I I never want that to happen.

Buck Mulligan [00:48:53] Yeah. It's, it's, it's either, you know, it's a claim sort of the last time I seen it was that's the LST somehow gets stored in your spinal fluid and that then comes out at some point or not. It's like, it's not how spines work, you know? So no, there's, there's a couple of, I can't remember the technical name for it, but there's a couple of like studies, but they've just asked people, do you have, and so the issue is with it, right? So I I I go into my, my basically argument. So, so they say to people, so you take LSD, it has this very particular feeling, right? The colors are all maybe a bit more intense or sound sounds a bit sharper, you know, it is a, it's a, it is a very particular feeling, but every so often. So the first time I ever smoked a joint, it was an very extreme colors noises could hear a music, right? I remember spending time with some Harry Krishna in Australia. I was doing a very intense Chan, Harry, Harry, Rama, Rama, Rama, Rama, Harry, Harry, you know, that's over and over again. And I had like a proper out body experience for maybe, you know, for whatever few seconds that it was. It was like, felt totally detached from myself. Now I, I've also had other people talk about brother, you know, and like where they're having like these wee moments of just like clarity, you know, like my father talked about like that went through an extremely tough time during a business closing and was walking on the beach and it was just as low as he'd ever been in his entire life.

Buck Mulligan [00:50:42] And he just had this click in his head and the sea was blue and the sky was clear and everything was just, it just had this, you know, and everything was okay. So just whatever happened now someone could come along, go, oh, someone had taken LSD beforehand. They go, oh, as an asset flashback. And that's all it is. It's, you have a similar experience to what LSD is. They can look at, oh, that's an acid flashback. So the two cases that I read about were the, both people were on weed at the time. They'd been smoking cannabis. But the, the, the experience was like an LSD trip rather than getting high, you know? And so, so it's, it's it's probably doesn't, I, my assumption is probably doesn't exist. I haven't, I I haven't seen anything to suggest to me that it does. I, and it sort of just helps. There's a bit of like anti-drug propaganda to tell people, oh, you could be up a ladder and you'll have a flashback and you'll fall off. I, I, I doubt. So

Vance Crowe [00:51:43] What is your experience now? You know, you started out as a tea toller and then you do this adventure on drugs. Did you make the decision you want to go back to being a tea toller or you

Buck Mulligan [00:51:54] In my do you in my, i I have like, don't, like I don't do anything. I don't drink. I like, like the, so I, I, I drank four. I think it was five times I've been drunk. 'cause anytime I've drank I've got drunk. 'cause that's was sort of the reason of doing it. And two of those occasions for not good. And I've never drank again. And if no real, like if, if you like I am

Vance Crowe [00:52:22] What, what's not good about them?

Buck Mulligan [00:52:24] Let's not talk about that.

Vance Crowe [00:52:26] You can't come on a podcast and talk about your adventure and drugs and then tell us about

Buck Mulligan [00:52:29] No, it was no, it was sad l no. If it was like, oh, I wreck this thing and I, you know, I've gone to a fight and a threw a boy off a building or it was something like that. No, it was just, it's just sad. And I'm not just, not just not get into it, but it's, it's, it's, it just was just was fairly lean negative but which I've seen a million times before, you know, people, you know, standing talking to themselves and getting worked up and or somebody sitting crying 'cause they're drunk or vomiting or whatever and it's like, it doesn't look worth it. And I'm already, when I'm out, I'm depending on the crowd, maybe the loudest person there. And you know, I'm very fairly outgoing and I'm happy enough to be up dancing and talking to ones and, you know, that that's not an issue for me. I think not drinking as a teenager made me have to, you know, you know, get good at that. That wasn't, not being good at it, it wasn't an option for me. I couldn't just, you know, drink some confidence into myself. So, so it doesn't really, doesn't really affect me. It was, it was a, it was f fun, it was a fun experience. Oh no, what I found about alcohol more than anything, isn't it? And it really, it clicked with me was on nights out talking to drunk people.

Buck Mulligan [00:54:02] It's the most horrifyingly boring thing imaginable. So there was, there was one French guy, I was sitting chatting to him and he, and he started telling me about, you know, his flight from here to there and he got to Germany and then he had to get the bus and then they're going to go here and they have to get in another bus here. And then they're getting a flight and that flight got delayed and then this here and this. And it just kept going on and on. And normally while sober sitting, listening to that sort of conversation, I'd be sitting there going, Jesus, wouldn't it be great if I could just die? And, but while drunk, you're sitting there going a, a bus for three hours. My god, I've never heard the likes of that in my a three hour bus ride. Jesus crass. Fantastic. My god, you know, it, it, this incredibly monotonous born bullshit becomes r becomes interesting, becomes great, you know, you just don't want to hear more of it. And, and so it's like I, I can see the appeal where I can, I can definitely see the appeal of alcohol in that way. 'cause it's, it's just sort of, it's a, a social more than just a social lubricant. It, it's, it's, well it just makes where, whereas I'm like on quite often just get very bored in these places very quickly where I can see how you can be very happy just sitting there and very content getting a bit drunk and talking shit whenever you can. So it, it's, but overall, it's not something that I'm particularly interested in doing.

Buck Mulligan [00:55:35] It's, it's the only one that I am curious about because I would like to try DMT at some point. I would like to try ayahuasca at some point, you know, I, and, and so

Vance Crowe [00:55:48] Wouldn't we all. So that brings up a good point. Like you're talking about drugs that, you know, you could, you could listen to Joe Rogan, who's very popular. Yeah. People love him and he tells you, oh, do this. There's no downside to it. It's fine when, but when you really think about it, you are messing around with the circuitry that makes you, you. Yeah.

Buck Mulligan [00:56:12] So

Vance Crowe [00:56:12] When you think about doing that and, and taking these, you've already taken some drugs that could have altered the wiring in your brain. Are you worried about that at all? Are you worried about losing who buck is?

Buck Mulligan [00:56:25] No, it's like, it's, it's, it's, they're all going. I mean the chemicals are all like flushed out and I think to make actual serious change, you would need to do like some damage or whatever, you know, or these would need to be the, with ioas as like ioas I guess an extremely intense experience, but for like long-term beneficial change, you need to like regularly you, you know, regularly, whatever, a few times a year you need to keep going back and doing this and keep working on yourself and keep doing all these things. And, and so I I I, I doubt I, I I, I'm, I'm here. Here's, here's the thing, I, I think nothing has changed my mindset more has changed the chemistry of my brain more than lifting weights and more than any of those things possibly could if that, that regularly going in, getting those endorphin hits, whatever other chemical changes are happening. I mean, like, it, it lifted my mood lift, it changed me more than, than any of these things did or potentially could have. So there's, you know, I, I am a different person from when I started lifting weights than before I lifted weights. So it's like, yeah. So those, so the worst changes that I am a different person. So, so, so I mean, like, so you're, and you're also constantly changing as well and maturing and your brain chemistry's always shifting.

Vance Crowe [00:57:58] So you went on this adventure at heartbreak, which sounds like the beginning of a hero's journey. Yeah. Did you come out on the other side a better man? Are you, you know, a better mate for, for a woman? Are you better prepared to handle heartbreak?

Buck Mulligan [00:58:14] So this is what, when I started like doing this, this is what you want. Ideally you want to do, you want to have it as a hero's journey and you want to come out a better person at the end. And this, and I had that. I, I, whatever there's 65,000 words in that book. I probably read 250 and deleted and changing and coming back. And, and, but when it came to down to it, when I'm being very, and I'm very glad it did, I didn't release the book years ago. I'm, I'm glad that there was that time of like changing and knocking back and stuff on it because I went away and done some drugs and had some interesting experiences. And that's what happened. There wasn't a hero's journey. I didn't, you know, come out better. I didn't know there was no, you know, call, you know, a bit of a cult adventure. But no, I, I, I done some drugs, had some interesting experiences. Maybe, maybe there were some shifts, maybe there were some changes. But again, I I, I came back because I was, and, and, and while the drugs definitely helped in those moments and for a little while, it, it, these things aren't gonna fix you now, maybe as a part of some small part of a bigger journey maybe, but they aren't going to fix you. That's, that's just the reality. And that's not just from my experiences. I, I the people who, who will tend to tell you, or you know, that that's who will make the, all the big claims about, you know, what's DMT can do, what's cannabis can do, what, you know, they tend to be fully shit.

Buck Mulligan [00:59:59] And it's, it's, it's, and it's, and the people who, who you do look at and go, oh, that is a, a worthwhile, useful, contributing person. If they're talking about it, they've done it occasionally. It has been a small thing. They've had an experience and then they've, they've went on to it. But there's Joe Rogan talks about, you know, smoking weed to help him with his, his comedy. Joe Rogan's comedy's trash. Now I love his podcast and everything. I like the conversations. But as a stand and as someone who really loves standup comedy, Joe Rogan's, standup comedy is even by like the bad American standup comedy standards is really, really bad. If someone got a on an open mic stand and went, I'm so high right now, don't you just love weed? They would get stared at know, he has a, he is a built-in fan base. People like him, people, there's certain people will laugh at whatever he says, but he's, he's, he's just killing my chances of get on Rogan. But he's not a great standup comedian. That's just the reality. And so him talking about, you know, smoking weed to help him loosen up and get better at this, it's like, yeah, it probably sounds about right. You know,

Vance Crowe [01:01:05] Man, that's like sacrilege in the, in the world of podcasting. Podcasting. But I, but I, I, to be totally candid, I had never actually thought about it. I went to one of his comedy shows and it was a good experience. I enjoyed myself, but it was much more about seeing a guy that I think is world class at, at many things, but he was definitely not at the Dave Chappelle level of, of comedy where like, anything that comes out strikes you as like, I would never have thought of that. I, I think he's very quick-witted. I think he knows how to rib and all of those things. But I would, I would agree with that assessment. And I, I don't think I've ever heard anybody say that, buck.

Buck Mulligan [01:01:46] Yeah, no, I'm just fierce. But truth, that's what I'm all about.

Vance Crowe [01:01:51] So what are you gonna, you, you know, you've, you've published this book, how's it going? I mean, you've been all over the world talking about this thing,

Buck Mulligan [01:01:59] So I know it's moving a unit at a time, trying to sell it. If I, I, I want to decided I'm gonna start working on the next book, I'm just gonna do that. Regardless of how this sells or how this goes and

Vance Crowe [01:02:15] What is the next book

Buck Mulligan [01:02:16] Was, do I talk about the next book before everything? Sorry, this one yet, the next book is called, all I Care About is Sex and Violence. So originally I saw you say drugs and I thought, oh, you'd do a trilogy, it'd be show ice. So sex, drugs and violence and you know, sex, drugs, rock and roll, whatever, but sex, drugs and violence. And then as I'm sort of like thinking about this topic, there's actually a, a song by a, a rapper called Dizzy Rascal. And it's, and there's a lyric in it, and all I care about is sex and violence. And so that came to me. But it is what I want to do in the next, right now I'm pretty fat from lockdown, haven't been in a gym in months, haven't got any sort of like targets or anything to go to. But what I've decided to do for this is I'm going to do an MMA fight. So I'm gonna set up, and I'm also set up, I have to find a wife as well this year. So that's one of my other targets. So it's gonna be about, I'm not totally sure what the book's about, but it's gonna be, it's gonna be that journey to that there, it's going to be,

Vance Crowe [01:03:36] Have you seen, speaking of sex that you're talking about, have you seen that there is a new movie, like I think it's actually a miniseries called There's no, I in threesome,

Buck Mulligan [01:03:47] Is there? What's that? No, is what? It's in Netflix. It's supposed

Vance Crowe [01:03:52] Supposed to be a documentary about a guy who's engaged to a woman, and then they decide they're gonna have a polyamorous relationship, meaning like, you know, they, they, they keep each other's relationship at the highest point, but that they allow the other one to have like sexual relationships with other people. And supposedly he, they, the, this is like their documentary journey of this. I was so repelled by this. Oh

Buck Mulligan [01:04:21] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:04:21] Totally disgusted it that I, it was like watching a car wreck, right? Like, I was like a, this'll never work. And I watched the, the previews of it. And I think we're headed into a very unusual time in our culture where, because religion has fallen away because people don't believe in the state because they think like, Hey, dare told me that drug would kill me. And it didn't. I think there, people are gonna be testing the boundaries. And I think the, the challenge of writing a a anything about sex right now is that there are people willing to go really far to talk about this subject.

Buck Mulligan [01:04:59] Yeah, I mean, like, I'm not getting into any of this at the, I don't get into any at the moment, but it, it's where you can sort of, I'm fairly skeptical about any of these, this claims about polyamorous relationships, just that, okay. Right. So human beings, just as we are men, women have sex when they want. Men have sex when they can. So like, I, the joke throughout the book is me constantly trying to pick up women. And I mean the, the vast, vast majority of it's rejection, which just, you know, which is just the

Vance Crowe [01:05:37] Way it is,

Buck Mulligan [01:05:40] Women don't have that issue. Like, it, it's, I was chatting with a, a, a feminist friend and she was claiming that, oh, this, this whole idea that men have a higher sex drive than women. This is a, you know, this is patriarchal, this made up ba you know, all, all of us Nice says, okay, let's, let's start, run an experiment. We're gonna go out onto the street and you're gonna offer to have sex with men. And what we'll do is we'll count how many seconds it takes for one month, say yes.

Vance Crowe [01:06:09] And

Buck Mulligan [01:06:10] I will do the same thing at the other side of the road. And we will count how many SAS it takes before the police are called. And so it's, and so when you're getting into like one of these polyamorous relationships, there's gonna be very one sided. It's gonna be very, very one sided. 'cause it's gonna be much, much easier for one person than it is gonna be for the other, which is already gonna start an amount of division and jealousy and better. Because the reality is relationships are difficult. And so now you're gonna add in this new component into it, it's gonna complicate and make things messy. I think Jordan Peterson referred to it as a adolescent daydream. And I was like, I, I would lean heavily towards that. I'd say it's so the, the, the, the, the one, the relationships that I do know about where I was like when traveling about and meeting these people is like, when you, you know, it, it turns out, you know, he's just really in a co relationship. She's having sex with other people. And

Vance Crowe [01:07:17] I mean, that's almost exactly what I thought. And that's why I was saying that the finding that preview for that show was like a train wreck. And I was total click baited. Like they got me because I, I went and watched as, you know, as many of the previews as I could because I was like, what idiot would, would the guy would be like, yeah, I think this is a great idea and not, you know, not only for your example, but like for the, like, I, I don't know, like having one of the best parts about marriage is that you can reach a point where you have so much trust

Buck Mulligan [01:07:51] That

Vance Crowe [01:07:51] You don't need to have jealousy. Yeah. And removing jealousy from your life removes an entire huge block of adolescent chaos in your life where you're thinking about what somebody else is thinking about you and how you can reciprocate and should you have power dynamics. And like when you get married, if you get married to the right person, that stuff all goes away. You have new problems, but you're transcended to a different level. So when this preview was about this guy like, oh, we're about to get married and we're gonna do this to like see how it can benefit our relationship, I was like, you idiot, you're giving up the very best thing that you have for what? Like why then why get married at all?

Buck Mulligan [01:08:36] Yeah, I know, I know. But this is, it's, I I I, I think a lot of this stuff is, it's where you tend to find where people who are create, right? So you went back generation people are very conservative now. They couldn't explain, and this is sort of what happened, me, you know, would me ever being the edgy internet atheist or whatever, I'm a teenager. 'cause conservative people cannot defend their positions. They don't know why. They believe It's just always worked. These positions have always worked and that's why I'm doing them. And they can't explain why they don't know what's about them.

Vance Crowe [01:09:17] Yeah.

Buck Mulligan [01:09:18] Tradition

Vance Crowe [01:09:18] Is, is the answers to questions that we've even forgotten the questions, right? Yes. We don't know why they work. We just do this tradition. And by the way, then, then our lives succeed.

Buck Mulligan [01:09:29] Yeah, yeah. You, you, the grips that adopt these beliefs and practices survive and the grips that don't don't survive. And so, so it is, the book is, so the next book is, 'cause it's a large, a lot, a lot about evolutionary psychology. 'cause it's, it's, I think you, you've within the, the certain groups it's, it's an unpopular idea. But these, these are the same sort of people who, you know, would've been arguing against creationists, arguing against religious people and claiming that, you know, evolution's through. But then once it comes to psychology, evolution wasn't through no psychology, obviously it evolved. I think clearly it evolved where asked that to come from. And so a large portion of, you know, if we could call it a depression, you know, the, you take even the obesity epidemic, obesity epidemic can only be understood from looking at it as from the perspective of evolution. It's like, oh, we have evolved to desire sugar, to like sugar and now we're completely, you know, this thing that's very rare that we very have very little access to. And now we're completely surrounded with it. We are evolved to live in areas with, you know, live in periods of scarcity where food's gonna run out. So when it's abundant, you take advantage of that. And now we're in, you know, the land time of plenty and it's backfire.

Buck Mulligan [01:11:05] America's two generations away from being unable to defend itself because the population will be too fat. So that can only be understood. And so like how many more other, you know, everything from depression to, to anxiety to, you know what, what whatever can only be understood if you look at it from the perspective of evolution. Alright, well these threats, so depression exists for a reason. It's not a bad thing. You know, it's not something it's, it's there to tell you it, it's again, like these are things that will obviously be more complicated. And there's obviously, you know, some people who are gonna have actual, you know, issues with brain, you know, brain chemistry. It's thrown around too much. But this is something that's there for a reason.

Vance Crowe [01:11:53] Yeah. I think like, I think that goes along, you know, anxiety is one of those things that I talk about. Anxiety is your brain saying something is really wrong and you need to fix it. And when you, when you go around saying we should fix the symptoms, you shouldn't be anxious as opposed to saying, Hey, your psyche is telling you that you're doing something wrong and you need to address it. And by the way, the reason that it takes your psyche is 'cause you don't want to face it. And so I think you're exactly right. Like you really don't know. And you've gotta have an open society where you don't say, Hey, the traditions that we had in the past, we always have to adhere to. You have to have people pushing the boundaries.

Buck Mulligan [01:12:32] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:12:33] But

Buck Mulligan [01:12:33] You

Vance Crowe [01:12:35] Being the person that opens that door, and I, I think this relates to you in your book, like in, in your, in the case of you saying, I'm gonna open the door to these drugs, like you really did take a chance there because you could have been that guy that was on the hostile stairs injecting heroin into, into his, in between his toes.

Buck Mulligan [01:12:56] Yeah. There's a Dr car I've mentioned to you before we started recording, but I can't remember his name. I think it's Dr. Carl Hart. But he is a, a drug expert. He's written several books on the topic, but he has talked out how he's a recreational drug user. He is a recreational heroin user. So, and, and this is actually a lot more common within the medical field. So the argument that they have is that, you know, these are professional people. They're, you know, they're not, not short of money. They have access to, they know how to use a needle. They have access to high quality narcotics. So they're not getting rubbish. They do it occasionally. They do it, you know, they do it occasionally with a group of other people who they trust and who they work with and who also can use needles and have access to high quality narcotics. And it's safe in that scenario, safe until it isn't. And this is sort of the issue. It's, it's, none of it's that good. It, it, it's is because everything's the end of the day is risk and reward. And is that risk even as small as you think it is worth it for, for the, you know, the potential fallout. So, and again, he's a, a tenured professor, he doesn't really have any worries, doesn't really have, you know, it's a, you know, he is a very safe job and a very, you I'd say easy.

Buck Mulligan [01:14:31] I, I don't know exactly what he does, but from, from my experience of tenured people, it doesn't tend to be too strenuous. So maybe he, you know, he has a, a lifestyle where he can get away with recreational heroin use. And it's, it's, it's, but your, your other issue is, I, I normally what they talk about is, oh, what was, call him again. What's Christopher Hitchens brother called again? I forgot his name. Peter Hitchens. Peter Hitchens. Peter Hitchens wrote, and again, this, it's where my position has changed so much. 'cause when I read his book The War That never was, I laughed the whole way through it. I thought, what a song book And now reading over it again. And I'm like, actually it's making a lot of fair points. 'cause it's, he, he's talking about like these upper middle class, secure mortgage pay, you know, paid off or paying off their mortgage educated people talking about their drug use. You know, it should be legalized 'cause I have a joint at the weekend, blah, blah, blah. You know, and all fair and what, but the real, the reality is the majority of drugs are being taken by poor people. The majority of the drugs are being people who are not in secure positions. They're being taken by people who probably don't need to be spending that money or who probably is really negative to their overall lifestyle.

Buck Mulligan [01:16:02] So you have this, you know, this, you know these, this grip of, I you, you've used the terminology to describe the away people. No. Who, what do they call again? The state, the, the type of person who goes away. Oh, the anywhere people. Anywhere people. So you have these anywhere people who are like, who are, you know, we, we need to, well these drugs are fine for me, so it should be fine for everybody. So we should, so all the laws and all the legislation, all the rules is should be built to suit me. Don't think about, and again, the idea that there's other people who with different experiences, different mindsets, different values, different tolerances, that these people are somehow different than them is not, that couldn't be right. So it's, the legislation needs to fit me and my, you know, group of friends. And so there is that, that danger. And I, I have to appreciate why I'm not educated by any means. I, I am in a sort of a privileged position where I'm, you know, secure and I'm in a decent job and I don't have too many pressures or struggles. And my reasons for doing these things is maybe different than another person's reason for doing them. So, and I am, throughout the book very cautious. And e even when I having those like good experience, I am, I think near in nearly every chapter. I'm like, yeah, but remember that bad thing that happened?

Buck Mulligan [01:17:34] So, you know, I-I-I-I-I don't want to. And that, and that only came later on in the book. 'cause when I first wrote the book, it was that, that that sort of like saying like considered sort rezy, just the war on drugs, really dumb possession. But you know,

Vance Crowe [01:17:54] Well Buck, you are a fun adventurer and you've, you've definitely enticed me. I'm interested in getting your book. So if wonderful people wanted to get your book, where would they do it and how would they find you out on the internet?

Buck Mulligan [01:18:08] If you look up, I can never remember this. It's either that buck gay, so that THAT buck, GUY on Twitter, adventures on Drugs in Amazon or on other online bookshops go buy up there. Yeah. So that's, see there, there's the two things. Go buy several copies, backup copies, copies for your friends, your family, you know.

Vance Crowe [01:18:36] Well man, congratulations on writing a book. That is always an accomplishment and it is one that sounds intriguing and something that you can't hear elsewhere. So man, good luck to you on selling the books and thanks for coming on the podcast. Thanks

Buck Mulligan [01:18:50] For having me.