Brian Hopkins: Pet Pharmaceuticals, facing adversity, stoicism and friends you can fight with.

Brian Hopkins [00:00:00] And there's, that's where, that is kind of the crucible moment in sales where you decide, am I gonna cross that line of being a consultant and somebody that they wanna work with? Or am I gonna push them and try and force them to use something that they are telling me they absolutely do not want?

Vance Crowe [00:00:16] I'm Christina Hudson Kohler, an egg processing manager living in Syracuse, New York, and you are listening to the Vance Crow podcast. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Today we interview Brian Hopkins, who is an animal pharmaceutical representative for Elanco. This is an interesting job because he is talking about the changes that humans have made with their pets. We're letting 'em into our houses, we're interacting with them in different ways, and that has some surprising implications for the way that we medicate them, the way that we treat them. And it's a pretty fun conversation. Brian is a good friend of mine that actually we clash all of the time, and those first few times we ever met, if I didn't have another friend saying, no, no, you two need to keep getting together, I probably would've passed him by. But instead, I have a friend that has made me grapple with ideas and change the way that I'm thinking. And it actually became really important during certain times in my life. This interview is a little bit tough at times. You're gonna hear us talking about the struggle to start a family and how both of us had to learn how to look about the present moment and feel good about things when we didn't know what the future held. We also talk about the death of pets, and I know that that can be a really heavy idea for people to grapple with, but the whole conversation is really interesting and Brian is a, a wild thinker that always is bringing up some new idea and we grapple with.

Vance Crowe [00:01:48] So I hope that you enjoy it. Before we go to that interview, I wanna mention that the Articulate Ventures Network announced a, a couple of podcasts ago that we have a Dunbar number that we want to make sure that the group does not grow too quickly. And so we've set some limits on how many people we're going to allow to join between now and the first of the year. And as soon as we put that out there, bang, we had people signing up. So if you've been thinking about joining the network because you wanna get away from the tragedy of the commons the way that social media and Facebook and Twitter are, or you just like to be introduced to some really interesting people that come from all different walks of life, but have something to add to conversations that you probably can't have in most other places, then I would highly recommend you consider joining the Articulate Ventures Network. So if you're interested, go to Network dot Articulate Ventures, and there you can sign up for membership. You can either do it monthly or do an annual subscription. And join us. We are having a great time in there and we would love it if you would join us. And now onto the interview with my man, Brian Hopkins. Brian Hopkins, welcome to the podcast.

Brian Hopkins [00:03:02] Thanks Vance. Good to see you.

Vance Crowe [00:03:04] Good to see you, man. You know, the concept of being a salesman is one of those things that has a pretty bad rap, but as you and I became friends, I got to see a different side of what it means to be a salesman. So when I bring that word up, what does it mean to you that's not the schulze kind of icky guy that a lot of people come to mind.

Brian Hopkins [00:03:25] I, yeah, I think that that is the first thing that comes to mind. And a lot of people have that preconceived notion of somebody being pushy or trying to change my view, but what it's evolved to is, is people trying to find solutions for people. And that human interaction still plays heavy even in, even in the COVID environment. So I think that it's all in the approach, right? I mean, it's, it's how you have conversations with people and if you end up with an outcome that's favorable for you, that's the goal of the job. The used car salesman thing, I think is, is kind of gone to the wayside in most, most, in most areas probably because information is so available, you can't fool people anymore. So you have to be a little more genuine. It's forced the hand,

Vance Crowe [00:04:06] When I think about your work, which is in the sales of like pet pharmaceuticals, I would've thought that this was a drab business. But you pointed out something to me that was like so mind bending that I'd never considered it. And that is that as the relationships that we have with pets has changed over time, that has changed, like how we formulate medications because we're interacting with our pets differently. What, what's changed over time?

Brian Hopkins [00:04:35] I'll explain it to you in the way it was explained to me, which I think is a great analogy. And it's kind of, it starts with where do these pets sleep? Where does your dog sleep? And back when thinking of my grandpa, the dog was outside, the dog barely got to come in the house, you know, it was in a cage, it was outside, had the, you know, the Snoopy style doghouse in the backyard, and that's, that's the relationship. But over time, the dog started to get let into the house. And with the dog coming in the house, you get the parasites and some of the nasty things that people don't think about in terms of pet ownership. So that changed the dynamic. Once the door opened, the pet was in the house and they're hugging him and kissing him and jumping on the furniture. And probably the next evolution was, where does the dog sleep? And you'd be amazed, I don't know about you, I think we've talked about this. You don't let your dog sleep in your bed.

Vance Crowe [00:05:22] Hell no. That dog can get in bed if it gets on the couches in trouble.

Brian Hopkins [00:05:26] But an incredible amount of people do. I mean, if you go ask your friends, I bet you six out of 10 of 'em would say, sure, the dog has or does sleep in the bed. And that human animal bond starts to increase. And because of that, the wellbeing of the pet and the expectations of pet owners changes. And as an industry in pharmaceuticals, we have to meet the new demands. And that's just exploded an industry that was sort of on a growth trajectory. But as millennials have become the largest sector of pet owners, expectations have skyrocketed. So they expect more. And and that's our job and our industry is to provide it.

Vance Crowe [00:06:03] Yeah, I remember when you first see people living in a city and that they have to walk around behind their dog with a little bag and me being like, oh my God, I would never do that. And then you end up getting a dog while living in the city and you're trailing behind it and you realize, well, this is actually a pretty good thing. Because if people just let their dogs just go to the bathroom wherever, it would be a nightmare because there are so many dogs living in the city.

Brian Hopkins [00:06:28] No question. We, we recently did a study in dog parks just to see what's the parasite burden within those areas. And it's crazy the amount that's just in the environment and people with kids don't think about this. And I don't know that pediatricians address it all that much, but there's zoonotic concerns with some of those parasites that can infect children. So part of the role of these pharmaceuticals is to prevent that not just from the dog being sick, but human exposure for some of those parasites. And you're right, I mean, you know, people are, pet ownership has evolved so much that some of the statistics are mind blowing. And one that I know we've discussed is, is the amount of money that people spend on discretionary things, the biggest of which is Valentine's Day for dogs. And last year people spent 1.7 billion with a bee on Valentine's Day gifts for their pet. And you start to think about that, and then you think about, well, if they're doing that, what are they willing to do in terms of veterinary care and and taking care of those animals?

Vance Crowe [00:07:30] Yeah, I think veterinarian care has has, I mean, like from my more country lifestyle where I grew up, it seems to me to have gone off the rails. And I can understand why, because that human pet bond seems to be built up for a bunch of societal reasons. But the amount of care that I see, or the amount of money, and not just that, but like the pain that the animal is going through while they're trying to go through some of these treatments, to me and my sensibilities seems like way too much. But then if you were to ask my wife her tolerance level for how much she's willing to spend on the dog is way higher than mine. And I'm never gonna fight that.

Brian Hopkins [00:08:09] Well, no, I mean, and that's, that's across the board. I mean, there's always people who are gonna say, that's too much for me. But the sensibilities are starting to change. I mean, the way that, I mean, you look at anything in, in the way dogs are used in advertisements, what you see just culturally, they're becoming such a part of life that veterinary care, even in, in areas that might seem a little insane. I mean, recently we entered into the specialty space where we're talking about oncology and thousands and thousands of dollars that people are willing to treat or willing to spend to treat their animal. It's, it's not uncommon. And it's becoming even more common now that millennials have taken up the vast share of pet ownership.

Vance Crowe [00:08:49] I had a chance to go down and speak at the University of Florida, which has an incredible veterinarian program, particularly around pets. So, you know, in, in the world of veterinary care, most of the time it's separated out between large animals and small animals. Right? But University of Florida has an entire oncology department, and at first I was really dismissive of this, like, Hey, come on, the dog gets cancer, probably time for the dog to go. Like, what are we trying to do with life expectancy? But they then went on to talk about how many discoveries have happened in the pet world trying to solve pet cancers that then have been able to translate over into the human world. And in particular, and this is just outside of oncology, but was working on the eyes. So like a dog gets a stick in the eye, the amount of work that they could put into it then was able to transfer. And the ophthalmology department at the University of Florida now comes to the veterinary department to get research because they're able to discover things that they never expected they could do.

Brian Hopkins [00:09:49] Yeah, no, no question. And it has to do with speed. The speed in which the animal pharmaceutical industry can develop and bring products to market is a little bit quicker, but you're a hundred percent right. It is, it, it is a little bit hard to believe how much people are willing to do. And, and from a specialty standpoint, it's the fastest growing part of the business. I mean, they're popping up everywhere and that level of detailed care is becoming the norm. I mean, you're right. A lot of people will say, Hey, what's the point where you say euthanasia is my option? That's becoming longer and longer as as pet ownership has changed.

Vance Crowe [00:10:30] I think pet ownership has changed in large part because people go so much longer before they have kids. And like, I know for me, there was like this period of time where I was like, I don't want a dog. I don't wanna be tied down. And then when I started dating my wife and she had a dog, all of a sudden there's now this thing that we're kind of bonding around. And it seems like, and I've been kicking around this idea of the cosmopolitan culture where there's like a new culture that's not necessarily traditional American. I think it's going on in other countries as well. And some part of that culture is deeply integrated with the fact that people are having children later, and yet they still wanna have something that they care for or something that they're responsible for

Brian Hopkins [00:11:13] It. It's playing out in all the data. And we, I shared that experience too. I had kids later in life, but I had a dog before I got married. And then, you know, as part of the family once we got married, but there's about 35% of the people have a pet in the us but millennials have 70%, they're having kids later, but the pet ownership is expanding.

Vance Crowe [00:11:33] 70% of millennials have pets.

Brian Hopkins [00:11:35] Yeah. That's the statistic that we see through the AV MA. It's amazing. They're, I mean, they are the bulk of the business at this point, and it's because of the reason that you just stated, I mean, they, they're doing things differently. They're spending more, more time before they have kids in. In fact, when we look at areas where we're seeing growth and millennial job increase, one of the big prerequisites for people who are living in those apartments is that they allow for pets. So it's changing dynamics even in real estate to say, we have to have that as part of our, our expectation that pet ownership is gonna come with it.

Vance Crowe [00:12:12] Oh, I remember pushing at Monsanto when I was working there that like, you know, it used to be that you needed to have a daycare. And I think a lot of places, if they really wanna do work-life balance, they have a daycare. But the first Fortune 500 company that has doggy daycare will have people working so much later into the night because now you can know, Hey, my pet's there, I can go pick it up and take it for a walk and then go back to work. I, they never took me up on it, but I would imagine some businesses probably are.

Brian Hopkins [00:12:39] It's a great idea. I mean, you could even expand that to just even, Hey, one day a month we're gonna have people who have dogs come in and we'll groom and bathe your dog, and when you get out, you're, you can pick him up and drive him home. I mean, that's a perk that I think people would say, sure, I'll, I'll, I'll participate in that. So yeah, there's, I mean, people are, companies are starting to have bring your dog to work days, and that's becoming normal. So it's, it's bizarre, but it's undeniable how, how pets are starting to change his everyday life.

Vance Crowe [00:13:13] Yeah, the bizarreness like when you've, when you're standing on the outside, you're living in a small town or you're younger, it, it definitely seems bizarre, but then when you're in, in swimming in the pool, it's, it makes total sense, right? Like for, for my wife and I, we, we consciously waited to have a child for a very long time, and then when we went to have the child, it wasn't anywhere near as simple and as easy as we expected. And so then that dog became something really important to us. And we actually had one dog die and we had another dog. And it, like, if we had not had those two dogs in integrated into our lives, I think that the burden would've been much, much heavier to bear.

Brian Hopkins [00:13:56] Yeah, same. We had a similar experience, Vance, and same thing, we, you know, we would bring our dog to family events because everybody else was bringing their kids. I mean, it was a, an integral part of our life still is. But absolutely, I mean, I think that's part of what we're seeing is it does help bridge that companionship that people are looking for, gives you something to care for. And it changes the way that you feel about the animal when you're put into that type of a situation. For sure. I know I experienced it, and it does, it just gives you a different level of affection and attention to the animal.

Vance Crowe [00:14:30] I remember when, when our Greyhound first got sick and I, I was like, Hey, it's time to put this dog down. And I was telling you about it and just being like, Hey, hoppy, you know, give, gimme some advice here. And you were like, you never, ever, ever tell your wife that you wanna put the dog down. Like that's her decision. If that's what she wants to do, then you support that. And if not, you stick with it. And I remember at the time being like, ah, screw you hoppy. Like, I, we need to just answer this problem, just settle the problem. And now looking back on it, I'm like, oh, thank God. He told me that like, I would've killed my wife's dog. And we ended up having like two more years and it was good. But that's like one of those things that I was unprepared for in adult life.

Brian Hopkins [00:15:13] Well, it's, it's not a normal, I mean, the bond, that bond that your wife had, you'll never understand that. And just coming into it, I think you think, you know, but what they've been through, you'll never know. And it, it's real. I mean, it is real and it's a hard decision. I mean, we talk about that in our industry a lot. The fact that euthanasia is acceptable has created a whole new paradigm of veterinarian suicide, which is, veterinarians are one of the highest groups in America that, that are subject to that. And I think a lot of it has to do with their constant interaction with that life and death decision of this thing is experiencing pain. I can end that pain. And it's a challenge, I think, for a lot of veterinarians to separate that from their home lives and their lives, to think about the pain that they experience and then separate from the work. It's, it's a challenge in, in euthanasia, in, in animal health is is something that I think is driving some of those, those statistics around, around the veterinary suicide for sure.

Vance Crowe [00:16:17] Yeah, because our culture, I mean, like we decided, you know, in humans, we keep them alive as long as we possibly can. And then the individual itself gets to decide, Hey, no more care. But like, when you're in the position that you're caring for that animal, it can't articulate what it's thinking or what it wants or how bad of pain it's in. So then you have this person that's doing it, but then they're not actually the one that's going to take the action. I mean, sure they drive the dog to the, to the clinic, but then they go to a vet and they say like, well, what do you think? Yeah. And then they're, they're looking for that vet to give them some answer about a thing that has, you know, some tie all the way down to, to their soul. And man, that would be such a burden to bear.

Brian Hopkins [00:17:04] No, it's challenging. And, and it's a subjective, subjective opinion on quality of life, right? I mean, they are just trying to balance to say, at what point is quality of life so bad that we should end it? My dog is 14, I have two dogs, but 14. We're at that stage where she's not getting up and walking around as well as she used to. Coming down the steps is a challenge. And you look at her and you say, how much pain are you in? Am I holding onto you for selfish reasons? Or the next day she'll be running around the house a little bit. So it's, it is, it's, it's hard to, to grasp all those things and make that decision rationally.

Vance Crowe [00:17:44] The best thing I ever did, probably in my entire marriage, was to decide before the first dog goes, we're gonna get a second dog. And for me, like I was traveling all the time, it was a huge burden. We had to put the dog into dog daycare, which to me, like, I'd have to tell my brother this and be like, ha, dog daycare, what are you doing? You know, you sissy. And I was like, wow, this is a reality. 'cause if I don't do this, then, you know, we have problems. And, but then having that second dog, before the first dog was put down, ultimately it, it was so deeply valuable to have my wife be able to come home after that bad experience of leaving the dog behind to have another dog there that needs you. And like, I don't know why that inspiration hit me, why, why we did that that way, but thank God we did.

Brian Hopkins [00:18:38] Did you ask her ahead of time whether she wanted a second dog?

Vance Crowe [00:18:42] Oh yeah. I mean, my wife is hyper. Like, she looked into what kind of dog to get for a really, really long time. The first dog she ever had was a greyhound, a racing greyhound. And you're right about that bond because they had some shared similarities in a weird way, because my wife was a competitive swimmer swim all the way through college. That's what paid for her school. And then all of a sudden swimming was done. And I think when she thought of the dog having been run for four years, really successful career, had some small problem and it was out and like, it was a, it was a part of their, who they were that I didn't share with my wife. And it's weird to say, but the dog did. And so when, and all of these things were things that I didn't understand from the outside, but thank God we, we decided to get this other dog, which then gave her a reason to be like, I wanna find a dog that gets along with the Greyhound and can be, you know, integrated into our family. And so it was a long process, which I'm, I'm sure is not very interesting to people listening to how somebody else bought a dog. But to me, I wish somebody I like, had I not had a friend like you, I would have made some wrong decisions here. 'cause I would've thought, hey, the man thing to do here is just roll in and, you know, tell her what to do and let's just do this. And you were like, whoa, they're slow up there

Brian Hopkins [00:20:02] Off the brakes. Well, at least you know, you're wise behind your ears in in this regard because I, we had one dog and I took a comment that my wife made about, you know, Bailey's at home all the time. Maybe she needs a companion. I took that to mean, go get another dog. So for her birthday, I surprised her with a new dog, which was, which was a shock to her. And we loved the dog. But yeah, good advice to plan it out and make a mutual decision because I just showed up one day with one and it didn't land like I thought it was gonna land.

Vance Crowe [00:20:36] So you're in the, like, the pet medicine world, and as people are spending more money on this, that has to be something that the, the pharmaceutical world has to address. Like, well, since it's not being, the price isn't being mitigated through insurance, how do you, how do you think through the challenge of setting the price of, of pet meds? Like is it just supply and demand

Brian Hopkins [00:21:00] Pretty much? I think that's, that's it. I mean, obviously there's certain margins that you look at when you're looking at a brand and you look at the competitive landscape and decide where do we fit with our attributes versus what we see in, in, in the market. But price settings, you know, it's, it's an internal process that I think all companies probably have their system with, which they do it. But a lot of it is what, what will, what can pet owners afford to do that will provide the standard of care that the veterinarian wants? So I don't think there's a magic bullet to that, but everybody has kind of their secret sauce of, of how they develop pricing.

Vance Crowe [00:21:35] So then who are you as, as a pharmaceutical sales for pets? Who do you sell to? You don't sell directly to consumers?

Brian Hopkins [00:21:42] Mostly we sell to veterinarians directly. They're small business owners. It's not, as you mentioned, it's a, it's a cash business where they own the pharmacy. So our number one focus is veterinarians. And it's a big, big industry. I mean, it's a hundred pet care will go over a hundred billion dollars this year. 30% of that is just within veterinary care and wellness. So big market, lots of players. Some of the bigger ones have, have recently spun off to create their own companies. But our focus is veterinarians and making sure that they have the options that they need. And, and pet owners are driving a lot of the decisions too, where they wanna shop, how they wanna shop. We're trying to bring our veterinarians along with us to say, Hey, the way that people are interacting with their pets and, and the way they wanna purchase goods is changing. We gotta be ready for that. So a lot's changing the industry in a short amount of time.

Vance Crowe [00:22:39] Why is it that I can't just go online and get my dog's heartworm medicine or whatever? Why does that have to be done through a, through a veterinarian?

Brian Hopkins [00:22:50] Well, part of it is because there's side effects to, to all these drugs. And if you don't have the proper testing to say your dog is eligible, then you could have some pretty serious reaction. So veterinarians are still the source for that. And they wanna make sure that you're, it's more of a wellness play advance that they wanna make sure your pet is well before they put you on or put your dog on a specific prescription. I mean, the same way that you would need to go in a lot of times to get a checkup before you continue even with, with maintenance medication, the standard of care is high in, in veterinary medicine. And that's a big part of it is that, you know, these, these veterinarians wanna make sure they're providing the best for the animal. And like you said before, they can't say what's wrong, so they need to go in and have diagnostics done to then evaluate what could be wrong before we put them on a particular course of medication.

Vance Crowe [00:23:39] I guess I'd never really thought about that because to me I'm like, I don't know, it's heartworm medicine, we give it to her, I have to shove peanut butter around it and then get it down her throat and do all this crazy stuff.

Brian Hopkins [00:23:48] Right? Yeah. Well, I mean, if, if your dog had heartworms and you gave it heartworm medication, let's say you forgot to give it a couple months or something developed and, and there was a gap, there can be complications with giving those drugs with a dog that has heartworm disease. So your veterinarian can tell you if that's happening. And that's, that's why continually annual checkups are important.

Vance Crowe [00:24:12] So changing the subject entirely, but you made me think of something in, in my, in the Articulate Ventures network, which is a group where it's, it's kind of a private group off of Facebook. People go there and they have these conversations. And the other day we had a discussion around should you medicate your kids if they have a DHD? And like, what are the consequences? What are the long-term problems? And one of the guys in our group who works with elders like the elderly, he pointed out something I did not know about medication. He said, if you are using medication to treat some, some kind of psychological disorder like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder and somebody gets Alzheimer's, all those medications, they don't work anymore. So if you were medicating your depression, if you were medicating your anxiety and you get, there's a few disorders that you get that all of a sudden the medication stop working. And I was like, oh my God. Like just imagine the hellscape that that would be, that you're transitioning from one terrible disease to another and now the way that you handle that is no longer gonna work.

Brian Hopkins [00:25:19] Yeah. And that's maybe at a smaller scale. I mean, it sounds a lot like resistance that we start to see in antibiotics and not using things properly can lead to unintended consequences. We see that in in veterinary medicine too. I mean that's part of the reason why I think maintenance and, and people evaluating what's proper is important. But you know, just letting people run amuck with medications can, can absolutely lead to those type of, you know, unintended results. But that is scary as hell to think that you, you, you get to that point and then something worse comes along and you can't defend against it.

Vance Crowe [00:25:53] Yeah. And Mike, it's one of those things where with your pet, it's kinda like, Hey, veterinarian, tell me what to do and I'll do it. And I, I at least don't think about side effects. You had mentioned they're they're real and they're there. But when you start thinking about kids, like the very first time I ever had to give my daughter a, it was like a vitamin D drop. I did it one time and I was like, I don't care if she needs vitamin D I'm not doing that again. Like that's, to get her to choke that stuff down was like one of the worst experiences of my life. And yeah, I don't know where I'm going with that, but have you had that experience given kids?

Brian Hopkins [00:26:27] Of course, medicine, of course of Oh God, of course. I mean, and even when they get sick and they're helpless and you, they, you know, you know that they have to take this, the fight is real and it's scary. And as a new parent, I mean, it's incredibly intimidating. What I will tell you though is that, you know, first kid you kind of handle 'em with, you know, like they're made outta glass. Second kid, you're gonna shove that vitamin D right down their throat. I don't have any doubt. I don't have any doubt.

Vance Crowe [00:26:55] I mean, I could already tell you like, the learning curve for the poor first child is terrible. Like,

Brian Hopkins [00:27:00] It's hard. I,

Vance Crowe [00:27:01] I just did the discovery of like, how do you actually tie a swaddle? Because before I was like, eh, eh, putting the blankets on there, right?

Brian Hopkins [00:27:07] And

Vance Crowe [00:27:07] Then the baby would get their arms out and then freak out and I was like, baby's being bad. Until you realize like, no, you're doing this all wrong. And that, you know, it just took me about two months to figure that out. And I can't even imagine how many mistakes I will make along the way.

Brian Hopkins [00:27:22] No, tons. Yeah, you'll make tons. But that's normal. Everybody does, right? I mean, we, we had our first kid and we, we made a decision to move to Indiana and, you know, talk about an experience. Your wife is pregnant for the first time. You completely move away from your family and then you have your child with no support system around you and you're making all kinds of mistakes, but, you know, they're resilient and it all worked out. But yeah, I mean, Parenthood's a a rush man.

Vance Crowe [00:27:51] You know, the both you and I had this situation where it took a long time to get pregnant. And without going into any of my wife's side of this, for me, if we had had the child as easily and as quickly as other people, I think this phase of the baby not sleeping and having all of these problems, I think there's a chance I would've been resentful of it because I think I would've been like, ah, can't you just be a good baby that does the right things and just does things? And now a screaming baby to me is like, well, I'm just glad she's here. 'cause it was not inevitable that this was going to happen. And you know, it's, it's weird to say like, I thank God, whatever that means for the fact that it was difficult because that difficulty, which was probably the worst point in my life, was one of the best things that could have happened to me.

Brian Hopkins [00:28:44] Same experience. And we've talked about this and my wife was, we had about a five year run where we were really trying all kinds of methods and we weren't, we weren't getting where we wanted to go. But you're right, I mean you, when, when that happens, it challenges your marriage, it challenges everything. You start to get resentful for other, when other people are having success in that area. And you look at yourself and you say, what? You know, how is that emotion coming out of me? It's a challenge. But, you know, one of the things that, and I know we've talked about this, was the advice that I got when we were going through this was from my wife's, my wife's aunt who happens to be a nun. She said, you know, you gotta stop praying and asking for what you want and start praying for the grace to accept what comes. And when, when that advice was given to me, it was kind of my first step into stoicism in some regard to say, okay, start thinking about what you can control. And it just changed my attitude completely. And you know, we worked through it together and thankfully I have an extremely strong wife that is incredibly resilient. I know you do too. And our marriage was 10 times stronger after going through all this. And it would still be regardless of the outcome because of the challenge. So as much as it was, like you said, the worst maybe, you know, valley of our relationship, it was the best.

Vance Crowe [00:30:09] Yeah, I I, there were a couple of times when you had told me things that were really important, one of which is you're gonna get advice from people that didn't struggle. And you just gotta, you gotta let them be able to give that advice 'cause they just don't know. And that was really true because I had started to become resentful when somebody would be like, oh, you know, just try this thing. And that's what worked for us. And it was like, you know, and I was like, you have no idea how difficult this has been. And the other big thing that, and this is why I try and talk openly about it, I did not know how common it was for people to lose a pregnancy. And so when it happened to me or when it happened to us, I was so shocked because I didn't know that it could happen that I was like, what the fuck? Like, wh why didn't anybody tell me that this could happen? And then, and so now if I'm talking to a young guy and they start opening up in any way, shape or form, I'm like, Hey, you need to be prepared that this could happen. I'm not telling you so you can be afraid. I'm not telling you so you can worry your wife, but if you don't know that this can happen, then when it happens, if it happens, you're not gonna be ready for it. And, and that, that, so that's why I'm, I try and be as open as I can without, you know, my wife is very private person. But to say like, people need to know that young men in particular need to know that.

Brian Hopkins [00:31:35] Yeah, no, there's no doubt. And and it was crucial for me to start to have those conversations too with, you know, friends that I know were experiencing the same thing. Because you're right, you do get just a flurry of advice of, of what you should be doing and your eyes roll and, and you start to think about how challenging it really is. But yeah, I mean it's, it's a difficult situation and I think more conversation about it is, is better for people because you're right, there's so many people that are, that have experienced this, whether they admitted it or not. And again, I think, you know, you just have to get resolute about the fact that, hey, I'm gonna accept these outcomes, but I'll be damned if I'm not gonna try everything I can and support my wife and keep our relationship strong through all of it. That was really the eye-opener, right? I mean, it was just, Hey, we're gonna lock arms and get through this together, regardless of what happens. Really, really helped

Vance Crowe [00:32:33] A amen. Like I, I'm in total agreement with you about how much closer it made my wife and I, and, and I, I firmly believe that even if we had not been blessed with having a child, the the process of going through this would've just tied us together because I had to embrace stoicism. I decided I was gonna run 500 miles and I did that. And that's when I began to start having that process of losing my childhood naivety of like, well, if I just want something bad enough, dreams can come true. Right?

Brian Hopkins [00:33:02] Exactly.

Vance Crowe [00:33:03] And, and because like, you know, it's good to have some level of idealism, but idealism can, can knock you off of seeing what is actually present and in front of you and it can knock you away from, it's not to say like, oh, you know, a stoic is a person that doesn't get happy or doesn't look forward to things, but it's one that says, I accept what is. And by accepting what is allows you to see like, hey, even though my wife and I are struggling right now, I can see the, the amazing tenacity of this woman that I wouldn't have otherwise ignored or I would otherwise have taken adv for, for granted. And that, so for me, I, I know if there's somebody struggling and they haven't been able to make the breakthrough or they've had to go another route and decide for adoption or, or something altogether, the only thing I can say is the best thing you can do is learn how to be in the present and to be grateful for the things that you do have as opposed to desiring the things that you don't have.

Brian Hopkins [00:34:02] Good. No, well said. I mean, was this, is that kind of the catalyst that got you into stoicism? Because our conversations early on, I think we were both kind of at the start of a journey around understanding those concepts. Was this part of it or were you already down the road?

Vance Crowe [00:34:18] Oh, a hundred percent that it took it to a whole new level. You know, when I think when I first was introduced to stoicism, it was me figuring out that the darkness was coming, right? Like, I had had a really good job, I was making money. I, you know, I kind of had the things that I wanted and I started to look around and say like, Hey, I don't, I don't feel great, right? Like if I, if if you had talked to my high school self, I have transcended everything that he wanted and now you have it all. And so what does all this mean? And I realized that I was not actually taking responsibility in some deeper way. And so stoicism started with the, the Jordan Peterson line of clean up your room and, and then starting to take pride in the fact that, hey, my bed is made every day. And once you start on that process and you start going out wider and wider. But I think all the way up until we really hit this challenge, I had never really faced adversity. I mean, sure I'd faced things like I really wanted to get in grad school and I hope I get a job, but I'd never faced something where I truly wanted something and I was standing next to a person that really, really wanted something and, and that we may not get it and that may impact the entirety of our lives. And that was when I had to take stoicism from being this like thing that I was playing with to help me get in shape to being a thing that I integrated into my life to, to transcend the hell that I was in.

Brian Hopkins [00:35:49] No, that and very similar paths, and it's amazing how much those tenants stand the test of time, right? Even, I mean, think about all the different things that you could face. There's elements of stoicism that I've experienced that have helped me through numerous situations, both work and personal. But yeah, that was kind of one of those areas where I knew I had to change my thought process from being just completely optimistic to being realistic. And it helped us as a, as a relationship to start to plan out, okay, let's, let's make some decisions for ourselves and let's, let's take accountability for what we're doing and build that life that we, that we want, regardless of some of those things that we can't control. You

Vance Crowe [00:36:35] Know, it,

Brian Hopkins [00:36:35] It's, it's definitely something that, you know, you never wish that type of thing on someone to have to go through a crucible like that or experience, you know, issues in their relationship or challenges. But, you know, it, it has been one of the best things I think that that happened to me to change just who I am in general.

Vance Crowe [00:36:53] Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's weird to wish people suffering, right? But I do wish people adversity that is not easy to get past because the, the suffering has meaning suddenly when you realize like, okay, this is the way that I, I, it no longer is just me experiencing pain. It's me learning some lesson from this pain. And I guess that's kind of my definition of stoicism. It's saying like, alright, I've identified that I am experiencing pain or suffering or sadness or whatever that is, and that is actually the indication that something's wrong. And rather than wishing it away, it's me saying, how can I become okay with what is?

Brian Hopkins [00:37:39] Yeah. And, and in my office, a quote from Aurelius that I keep that, you know, if it's staring in front of your face every day, you can't help but look at it and, and apply it. And it's the, the quality, the happiness of your life will be dictated by the quality of your thoughts. And as simple as that is, it really is something that you can apply. You know, you can have challenges, but no one can make you feel sad. No one can make you feel angry. It's your decision consciously or not to go that route. And once you, no way it shape or form am I saying I've got this thing figured out, but I have at certain times applied it to say, Hey, why am I thinking this way? And is it my who's making me? I am. So I'm going to change that attitude. And it can, it, it can help in a variety of different ways. At least I've experienced that personally. So it's amazing when you start to take control a little bit that it just changes your whole outlook on life.

Vance Crowe [00:38:38] Yeah. That, that nobody can make you angry or sad. That's one of those things that you can see, you know, for the outsider that's never really thought deeply about this. But I started to get into meditation and during one of the meditations that I was listening to, the guy said, it is proven you cannot be angry for more than 30 minutes unless you choose to be angry, because your, your mind just cannot stay focused on a single thought like that because like, you know, try, try as hard as you can to just think about one thing for 30 minutes. You can't do it, right? Like your mind will wander. It goes to other things. So if you are angry, it's because you're like, oh, oh, oh, that thought that I was angry about, it's starting to slip away. I want to go grab it and bring it back. And it's no different than saying the way that I'm going to feel better is to take this hot coal and instead of throwing it off or setting it down, I'm just gonna clutch it as hard as I can and burn it into my hands. And those are the kind of things that, that, that goes to your point of the quality of your thoughts. Like, are you allowing an emotion to inhabit you?

Brian Hopkins [00:39:45] Right? Yeah. And, and it's, it's a lot of self-control, but that's, it's easier said than done though, right? I mean, you catch yourself getting angry and being veering from that path all the time. So it's, it's not like you ever get to the finish line with something like this. It is, there is no finish line in terms of saying, Hey, I've got, I, I understand stoicism, I understand how to control my emotions. It is just, that is, you know, that is the way that you have to practice going forward all the time. What did you Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:40:16] It's, it's interesting because like, I think when I first started to hear about stoicism, I was like, well, I'm gonna go to the source material. I'm gonna go read some Marcus Aurelius. And as soon as I did, it was like running into a brick wall where I'm like, look, I'm not an emperor. I'm not gonna go conquer some lands. I don't, you know, I don't have enemies at my back. And so I, I tried to go up the face of the, of the mountain instead of going around the back, which is why that idea of clean up your room is a good one because stoicism is actually, to me, a series of mental models that you discover, wait a second. Basically everyone that's gone before me that has transcended to some point that I wanna reach, figured something out and they have some wisdom, and I can take that idea and I can't just automatically apply it. I basically have to run into a situation that I can't get past without applying a new model. And I think that that's a better way to get into stoicism as opposed to being like, just gimme the, the, the hard stuff right. In the veins.

Brian Hopkins [00:41:16] Yeah. Well, I mean, plus it's difficult, it's just difficult to read and comprehend in some ways. And the situations were vastly different, but folks like Ryan Holiday have tapped into that and, and they've, they've been able to create a storyline and, and a better understanding of, of the practicality of it without going, you know, trying to drive a thousand miles an hour right away. But it's an interesting concept, and I see it in business play itself out effectively all the time. And some of the, back to the original comment about, about the sales force, I mean, that's one of those things is, is your ability to overcome adversity in a job like sales where rejection is probably nine outta 10 times. And those people who can grasp this concept of, of, of stoicism, I mean they're the most successful, the ones who are self-aware and just take adversity as it comes and find a way through as opposed to throwing their hands up.

Vance Crowe [00:42:09] Well, and that, that goes all the way back to your very first point about if sales is truly like to be good, it is that you have discovered that you are representing a solution to a problem people have. And if you are focused on, I'm going to find the person that is either aware that they have this problem or they have it, and my job is to help them understand that this thing will help them around that path, then it's much less about sales and it's more about having a really good conversation and understanding the problems that people have.

Brian Hopkins [00:42:43] Yeah. And, and you know, the used car salesman is, is that dirty kind connotation. But what everybody's in sales pants, I mean, you don't talk to somebody that's not everybody's has a concept that they wanna deliver or an idea that they want you to understand. That's what it is. It's that being perva per trying to per persuade people to do something. It doesn't happen in this, you know, archaic sales model, but it happens every single day and the best of the people do it to you when you don't even know that it's happening. It's, that's the concept that I think where the, you know, people that are the best at, at the job, they're just conveying ideas. I mean, people are selling ideas at this point, how to make things better and selling concepts even more than dog drugs or, or items or, or, and you know, the concrete materials.

Vance Crowe [00:43:37] So when you look back and you're thinking about the moments when you really sucked at sales, or you hit a point where you were like, look, I don't, I just don't wanna make any more phone calls or whatever. Like what, what was the, what was the moment? What's a low point that you hit?

Brian Hopkins [00:43:52] Well, I think, you know, rejection is just constant. And if you don't have innovation, if your product isn't the new shiny penny, then it takes a whole nother level of salesmanship to, to get where you want to go. And it really is just getting up every single day and, and keep and keeping, keep going even in the face of that. But I think a low point for me, we've had, we've had areas where we've had, you know, products that just are outshined by the competition and you're staring at somebody who was one of your best customers that you've had a relationship with, and they're telling you, right, to your Facebook, man, I get it, but I'm gonna have to go a different direction because of what I'm trying to accomplish. And there's, that's where, that is kind of the crucible moment in sales where you decide, am I gonna cross that line of being a consultant and somebody that they wanna work with, or am I gonna push them and try and force them to use something that they are telling me that they absolutely do not want? And because of the cyclical nature of, of pharma sales, at least you can be at the top of that innovation cycle one day and, and then the next year you're at the bottom, but you do come back. So those relationships that you could potentially burn by trying to shove somebody into a corner to buy your product, that's critical. And you know, I've been try, I've tried to be conscious about that even when they say, Hey, look, you know, no more, I'm going a different direction.

Brian Hopkins [00:45:23] At some point you have to say, I understand and I'll come back to fight another day.

Vance Crowe [00:45:27] And so then do you come back and start shouting at your r and d department? Like, work faster?

Brian Hopkins [00:45:34] Well, there's always a healthy tension between sales, marketing and r and d. I mean, that's in every company. And sure, I mean, yeah, we want 'em to work faster. I don't know whether they listen or not is is another thing. But every company wants to be the one that leads an innovation. But I think innovation at this point can come from a lot of different ways. It's not just products, it's the way that you teach people to deliver their, their conversations with their pet owner or helping them utilize other channels like online pharmacies to meet pet owner's demand. So you don't have to have the best product, but if you have the best way of communicating to get them to the best medical outcome, you're gonna win. It's just now you have to be a little bit ahead of the curve. You can't just rely on products. You have to be a bit of a chameleon and understand all the market dynamics if you wanna be successful.

Vance Crowe [00:46:27] So we keep making reference to the fact that, you know, oh, I was talking with you, or we talked about this, and it's because you and I have been friends for, I don't know, eight or nine years. And it's one of those things where until I became an adult, I didn't really understand the value of having friends that you could clash with. Like, you know, you, you grow up and you think like, I want friends that I get along with, and you do to some extent, but like, really one of the greatest values of our, of our friendship has been that we have similar ideas, but they're slightly different. And then we slam into one another. And I, and I think that that's something that is being lost right now due to social media. I think that what has happened is you have two things. You either have the people that you agree with in your dms that you're talking about, you know, other people and what's going on, or you see the people that you're willing to clash with in public. And you have the illusion of friendship clash. And I think that this can't, I think this is probably the fundamental reason why we're having so much chaos in our society right now.

Brian Hopkins [00:47:37] And and right now especially, I mean, we're in, during an election year, you're seeing all of this, it's okay to express ideas that are that challenge somebody else. The, I think what we've done well is that yeah, you're right. When we, we have a differing opinion, we don't hold back. It's like, wait a minute, I don't think that's right. But then there's that healthy discourse about why, you know, there's no shutdown to say, I don't wanna hear what you have to say. You know, let's talk about it and let's sit here and just let it go where it goes. It's not necessarily, I'm gonna follow some script or party line. It really just kind of floats up and comes out of the ether in some ways of here's why I think this way. But it's a, it's a willingness to sit back and say, you know, that's interesting. I want to hear what this guy's got to say. Plus it's fun too. I mean, mentally sparring with somebody and challenging each other, that keeps you sharp. I mean, the people who just toe the line, that's boring. And I think they're not growing in any sense. You have to have people that will challenge the way that you think, otherwise you're missing probably one of the most exciting parts of life.

Vance Crowe [00:48:43] Yeah. And having it mitigated through like social media channels where you can be like, you know what? I don't like Brian anymore. I'm gonna shut my computer lid and then he's gone. Whereas when you're in person or, and, or you could do it online, but it has to be where you know, you're going to see this person again. I think that one of the biggest problems with social media is the appearance of a zero sum game, because I can immediately cross you out as soon as I want to unfriend you. But if you and I are meeting, or all of our friends are gonna continue to meet, then the cost of me deciding that Brian's an idiot and I don't like him and I didn't like the way he argued there would be, you know, complete social isolation because you just, your friends wouldn't, wouldn't get together. Like, I think that we have to make a transition back to people getting together in person because it eliminates this zero sum game thing that's going on in our culture right now.

Brian Hopkins [00:49:41] Well, it allows you to press 'em and, and there's, you know, you're playing with live bullets at that point. You know, I could have a million things around here, you know, coaching me on what to say, you wouldn't know. But when you're live, you can see when somebody really hasn't thought about what they're telling you, they just read it on, you know, some Twitter feed. But the other thing that that's pretty cool is, is you know, you gotta have a diverse group of, of personalities. And when we were having time to do that monthly get together and you, you have different opinions and that, you know, you get somebody in there that's kind of the, you the mitigator of the, of the topics, you know, they can sort of recenter people like us who are, you know, a little more naturally challenging and just wanna push. I know we've experienced that in, in the group meetings we've had.

Vance Crowe [00:50:27] Yeah. I mean like, so our group friend is Travis Liebig, who I've had on the podcast before.

Brian Hopkins [00:50:33] Yep.

Vance Crowe [00:50:33] And he is like, he likes everybody to agree. He likes everybody to get along. And in fact, in a conversation, he would rather just let you think like, oh, I, I agree with you, than he would be to, to clash. And like, you need those people to be bridging together other people. And that's, that's the value of community. And I, I, I talk about this a lot and there's still more to iron out here. When I was working at Monsanto, I was very focused on the tribes because the tribes are a group of people that you could go find. You could figure out, hey, how can I get an idea that they agree with or that they see is in line with mine, and then it'll spread through their, their tribe really quickly. But there's a problem with tribes in that tribes war with one another, and that the difference of a, between a community and a tribe is that communities are groups of tribes that have to keep coming together. And then, and then the value of having these people that are bridge people more agreeable, want everybody to get along, become way more valuable than, than when you're all in your own little tribes. Separate from everybody else.

Brian Hopkins [00:51:42] No, and I think the other thing too is that tribes are just fraught with manipulation. I mean, that seems to be a pervasive, is that someone wants to manipulate or the group is manipulating each other from a thought process standpoint. But when you get it in, in groups that have differing opinions, it's, it's more about com commonality. Okay, I have this, you have that. Where's that? You know, sort of Venn Diagram Center. But tribes, they don't care. I mean, they, they just want, we're gonna have this opinion be pushed and if you're not a part of the team and get out. But I agree with you. I mean, diverse groups of friends, I mean, especially as you get older and you're experiencing some of the challenge that we have, it's, it's critical.

Vance Crowe [00:52:23] Yeah. The, the, you know, the idea that somebody can come into a tribe, it doesn't take very many people to come in and hijack the entire group. And, you know, the intransigent minority is best able to operate inside of a tribe. So the group of people that just say, no, this is what we believe, and anybody that doesn't agree, we're gonna scream and yell and, and stomp our feet until that, until everybody agrees, because then the people that are gonna be somewhere in the middle are just gonna say, well, I'll just get lower here. And then that intransigent minority pops into that leadership position. Whereas in a community, you've got so many people that there's a chance that you can mitigate the pressure that comes from that group that comes in there and says, I demand change. And I think that that's what's going on right now. I think because of social media, the intransigent minority has been able to run rampant in a way that they wouldn't in the regular world. Because if you were seeing each other in church, or you were seeing each other at the Elk Club coming in and stomping your feet, eventually people would be like, you're having a tantrum. You need to go away now.

Brian Hopkins [00:53:27] Right. Act like an adult. It's easy to hide on. And I gave up on social media. It was back when we did sober October a couple years ago. You know, I thought that just, just as much of a problem as, as, you know, trying to just take a month and, and get my mind straight and, and go through that just minor challenge. It was harder for me to turn off Facebook in all reality because, you know, you, you just get addicted to it and you wanna see what other people are doing. But one of the best things I did was cut the cord with some of that stuff and start these types of things. Don't text somebody, call 'em, go out, have dinner, have some conversation. I mean, it's been harder now, but you

Vance Crowe [00:54:07] Know that I didn't know you did that. That's actually, yeah. So this, I'm doing sober October this year and giving up alcohol or THC like not that big of a deal, but I decided I'm gonna give up Twitter. And I, I am dead serious when I say this. It was more difficult for me to do that than it was to quit smoking. And it's because Twitter is a dopamine machine. It is like, oh, are you a little bit bored now? Find some novelty. Oh, did you put something out there? Did somebody just agree with it? Oh, here now you get to feel good again. So I was sitting eating Wagyu beef like stew that I had made on the first night that I had given up. What's that?

Brian Hopkins [00:54:48] You used Wagyu beef and stew.

Vance Crowe [00:54:50] Well, it, I had a Wagyu brisket, and so I, or, or like, you know, some, some cut that was not good for steaks. And I did it in a slow cooker. It was amazing, by the way, 'cause all that fat and juices cooked and vegetables. So I'm eating it. And like, it tasted like sand to me because I was like, I'm so bored. Normally when I'm eating and my wife is taking care of the baby, I get to flip through Twitter. This is awful. Everything is terrible. And then all of a sudden you're like, wait a second. No, no, I'm having like the best meal I could have.

Brian Hopkins [00:55:24] Right.

Vance Crowe [00:55:24] And I'm like, not present because I want to be getting that hit of dopamine. And that's when I was like, I may never go back to that because it, it, it is the equivalent of a drug. It's just an electronic drug.

Brian Hopkins [00:55:37] Yeah. I mean, I went back to Twitter. I gave up Facebook. I just didn't see that as having any value to me. But Twitter, in a strange way does because I, I feel the need to know what even dissenting opinions from my own, I feel the need to know. I just wanna hear it. And I probably follow and read more things that disagree with what I agree with than the other way around. I just find it, you know, maybe it's voyeuristic, but I find it interesting to see, wow, that's what they think. I ca this is how they came to that conclusion. And Twitter is just like, you know, the epicenter for that type of of engagement. So I got back on Twitter, but the other ones, yeah, I got rid of completely,

Vance Crowe [00:56:25] I realized by being off of Twitter, that I don't actually have very many places I visit on the internet unless somebody shows it to me on Twitter. Yeah. But the problem for me, the the real reason that I think I may not be able to do your solution, I think it's fine. Everybody's gonna able to handle different things differently. But my, my buddy Rob pointed out, like when I put something out into the world on Twitter, I love having a good discussion or somebody saying like, oh, that's an interesting point, or let me add in here. But the negative feedback, I resist it and I fight it really hard. And it's because I have this sensation that I should be understood in some way. Yeah. So when somebody takes my idea and hijacks it, I can't stop thinking about it. And like, it's, it's, it's one of those things that now that I've been off of Twitter for, I don't know, a week and a half or something like that, I don't care at all what those people say. It doesn't, it doesn't, it has no bearing at all. But I'm sure if I was out there trying to put content into the world, then that, that need to feel understood would, would come to, to pull me under the water.

Brian Hopkins [00:57:35] Well, that's the difference is that you're, I'm an silent observer and you're an active participant. You know, I'm looking at things just reading and you're like putting your ideas out into the world and you're like, come and get it. And that, you know, there's a different level of, of what we're doing to with that, with, with that technology. So it was probably easier for me because I'm just bouncing around trying to figure out what people are saying, whereas you're like trying to maybe convince people of things they hadn't thought of.

Vance Crowe [00:58:04] I think big, big changes come into social media and I think that the, that the idea that people like Stewart Brand or Kevin Kelly had of, well, the internet will be this great equalizer. It will allow everybody to contact everybody else and we'll be able to have these great conversations. One of the things they didn't account for is the tragedy of the commons. And that when you lay out this landscape and you let everyone meet with everyone else, and their megaphone is just as loud as everybody else, there's no way to turn up or turn down or, I think that, that it made it so people, yeah, the, the chaos that they're feeling in here, they're gonna be willing to pay, but not for, like right now you pay for social media, you pay with your attention being sold to an advertiser.

Brian Hopkins [00:58:54] Right. And

Vance Crowe [00:58:55] I think people are gonna be willing to say, well, I'll pay some money to not be advertised to, but also to be away from this tragedy of the commons. And I don't know that that's necessarily gonna be a long-term solution, but I think that's definitely coming.

Brian Hopkins [00:59:08] It could, I mean, I don't, would you pay, would you pay to have to have Twitter if you, you could regulate that?

Vance Crowe [00:59:15] Well, I don't know about Twitter, but I think that, you know, for example, I pay YouTube so that that way I don't get any ads. And it is, it's, I mean, essentially I'm buying time, right? Because a lot of people don't realize you're, you're watching YouTube and then you get a 32nd ad thrown your way. If I can pay $10 a month to have all of those 30 seconds back, well that's awesome. But even more than that, like I think in networks or in private networks, people would pay just so that, that way there's a slight barrier to entry so that, that people are conscious of where they're going and where they're spending time or where they're not going to spend time.

Brian Hopkins [00:59:54] And probably, I mean, I would think adults have some sort of false sense that they can't be manipulated. So they may, you know, some will pay, some will say, yeah, whatever, I'll deal with it. But as a father, thinking about how, how our children could be manipulated by some of this stuff, that's probably an area that, you know, I, I'd wanna regulate a lot more. For example, I mean, I told, you know, when you first have a kid, you're like, I'm never gonna let 'em sit there and watch the iPad bullshit. And then so you'll get there pal. But even then, even then you're gonna wanna say, I need control of this content. I can't, you know, it's, it's very important. And you just, you just don't know what can be shown to somebody who is so impressionable that that's where I think I'd pay for me, you know, probably false bravado, but I, I, I don't really give a shit bad.

Vance Crowe [01:00:43] Oh man. I watched one of my, my nephews playing around on YouTube and first of all, the content that he can get to on YouTube is shocking to me. Like, like stuff that I would, you know, why would you, I, I can understand how they get it or why they do it, or why a parent gives 'em a screen. I, I get all that. But like, you watch it and you're like, this is gobbledy gook. This is just like mush being pushed into their brain. But the more terrifying thing is the ads and like, yes, the kids can sing along with them and they can,

Brian Hopkins [01:01:12] I know it.

Vance Crowe [01:01:13] And it, it's like, and there's something I think different than when we had television, and this might be naive or nostalgic or something, but at least it was a part of the, of the overall culture. Everybody was getting about the same thing. Everybody knew Matchbox Cars or GI Joes, but now it is so hyper targeted to that child that it, it's really pretty scary. I mean, the companies, they're spending a lot of money to figure out how do we get this ad to the type of kid that's going to wanna buy this specific thing. And it's fuck man.

Brian Hopkins [01:01:48] Well, yeah, I mean we, I, my daughter watches YouTube channels of, they're basically just influenced, there are other kids playing with toys and I've sat there and said, Hey, wouldn't you rather just go play with your toys than watch this kid play with his toys and you know, she's just laser focused on this thing. And that's, and and sure enough, whatever that is that they have, my daughter wants to have too, so they know exactly what they're doing. I don't know if it's better or worse than what we had. I mean, let's not give the corporations from when we were kids a pass here. They were coming after us pretty hard.

Vance Crowe [01:02:22] Yeah, that's right. GI Joe, I mean, that was essentially a cartoon designed to sell action figures and Yeah,

Brian Hopkins [01:02:28] Certainly

Vance Crowe [01:02:29] I think maybe the spookiness is, we were all getting it before and we're getting exactly what is targeted to your child. Does your child like Little Pink Dolls? Well then you're, is he gonna be advertising the shit out of Little Pink Dolls?

Brian Hopkins [01:02:44] Yep. Yep. No, it's, it is scary.

Vance Crowe [01:02:47] Well, Brian, you are in the middle of a workday doing your pharmaceutical sales for animals, and I'm glad you're out there. If, if people wanted to learn more about you or any, anything, is there a place you would send them? Or are you too private for that?

Brian Hopkins [01:03:03] Well, I told you I'm off the social media as much as I can be. I'm voyeuristic. I don't need to engage. But yeah, I mean, from an animal health perspective, you know, I think I'll leave you with this. I mean, people are going all over the place to figure out what to do with their pets. Google's a scary place. I'd encourage people to stick with your vet. I mean, if you're gonna do what's right, make sure you're going to talk to your vet about what you're doing. I mean, you know, it, people can get stuff anywhere nowadays, and no doubt about it. Your veterinarian's the right person to see. So I guess I'll just give a plug, plug for, for my colleagues and customer base.

Vance Crowe [01:03:36] Well, all right man. Brian Hopkins, thanks for your time and we'll see you later.

Brian Hopkins [01:03:40] Alright buddy, take care.