How Wealthy Donors Actually Give Money Away (Tax Strategies and Philanthropic Mechanics)

Barbara Carswell [00:00:00] You know, it just kind of shows you that the charitable giving goes way beyond just giving a, a transactional gift basically of a, you know, of a check to your favorite charity. I'm Danica plu, a grad student living in Fort Collins, Colorado, and you are listening to the Vance Grow Podcast.

Vance Crowe [00:00:22] Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Today I sit down with Barbara Carswell, head of Youth Bridge, an organization that helps people that want to donate money to great causes, but don't always know what are the best causes to donate that money to. Barbara has a unique background as an attorney and somebody really well acquainted with the tax system. So you're about to hear a conversation about how people that are in this world of philanthropy think about it, how they use that money to be able to create the largest amount of change, and how they set it up so that the way that they donate it is the most taxed advantaged. It may sound like kind of technical stuff, but you will get a view into the world that you don't get very often. We're gonna get to that interview in just a moment, but first I wanna talk a little bit about Legacy Interviews. This is where I sit down with individuals or couples to record their life stories so that future generations have the opportunity to know their family history. This week, I had the adult child of somebody that did a legacy interview a few months ago come in to tell me about the experience of handing the autobiography that we created to their father. They said it was one of the first times they had ever seen so much emotion out of him because he was able to touch and hold the book that held his stories. And he now is going to be able to pass this on to his grandchildren, knowing that they would be able to know where their family came from, some of his most important stories and the things that he believed in the most. If you would like me to sit down with one of your loved ones to record their life story and ultimately turn it into an autobiography in a single day, go to Legacy Interviews dot com to find out more.

Vance Crowe [00:02:03] Alright, without further ado, let's go to the interview with Barbara Carswell. Barbara Carswell, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Why does anybody need help giving away money?

Barbara Carswell [00:02:18] Well, I think it's fair to say that pretty much everybody who makes a gift or is charitably inclined interested, does it to make a difference. And I believe often people are, aren't sure whether what they do, the money they give away or the time they volunteer really does make a difference. And the reason why they feel most of the time that way is because they don't really know an organization very well. Often they know what cause they like, but they don't know that the specific organization that they're donating to really makes a difference. They don't have that knowledge. They don't have most of the time, the time to investigate in that, and they just want, like most of their things in their life to be somewhat happening efficiently without putting too much cumbersome work into that. And so people like me, I believe, who have knowledge of certain communities or certain areas of, of charitable work, can be a really good resource for somebody to kind of alleviate some of those frustrations.

Vance Crowe [00:03:36] So tell me a little bit about yourself. So what do you, who do you work for and what do you do there?

Barbara Carswell [00:03:41] So I am CEO of an organization called Youth Bridge Community Foundation. We are based here in St. Louis, Missouri, and we basically connect resources with community needs. And what that means is we work with donors, and donors are charitably inclined individuals, families, businesses, maybe even partnering with other nonprofits to help get those resources that they have, whether that's cash money, whether those are certain types of assets that could be used to causes in the community that, that they are interested in. Because we're a community foundation, our work is really mostly focused on our community, which means the greatest St. Louis region.

Vance Crowe [00:04:37] So I worked in nonprofits for a while, and I remember there being this like serious tension occur, which is that people would say, I want my donation not to go to administration, but the administration is what makes the brochures shiny, and the photographs look really good so that people are like, ah, I'm helping those children, or I'm, I'm, you're measuring these things so I can tell whether I'm making a difference. You must face this like tension all the time because people don't want it to go to administration. But administration is the thing that gets people excited or interested about the thing that they're donating to,

Barbara Carswell [00:05:11] Right? So a lot of, a lot of the clients or a lot of the, the, the people that we work with, if they discover an organization that they like, and, and again because they are concerned about making a difference, so very often they say, I want my gift to go to a very specific program or a very specific project that an organization does because I don't, I am worried that they're spending all this money on overhead. And, you know, there's been a lot of bad press around, particularly some of the larger organizations that they waste everybody's money. And so I always talk a little bit to them, particularly when they're business people. If they own a business, I show them a a a pyramid that a consulting group called the Bridgespan Group has developed a few years ago about a nonprofit organization. And it really, it, it shows the, the nonprofit, the charity as a pyramid, and it shows two layers of foundation and one tip of the pyramid. And so your, your very basic first layer of the foundation is a good governance structure

Vance Crowe [00:06:23] That

Barbara Carswell [00:06:23] Any nonprofit organization should have. Like, you know, you, you are dutifully incorporated, you have your bylaws, you have a board that, that runs smoothly. And then there's a second layer which really deals with resilience and sustainability. And that of, that basically evolves around fundraising and the strategic plan. And in building that, that second solid foundation, and then only on top on this very small tip, are really the programs. And what it shows is that no organization can function. You cannot have good, impactful, effective programs if your foundation layer and your resilience layer is not there. And so this is where I encourage a lot of our donors to say, well, look, this is, this is what is kind of labeled the overhead. It's really that foundation that an organization needs. And so I encourage donors to make gifts to those layers because only then will an organization be able to run, you know, impactful programs. Having said that, again, and I think that's where I or my organization can come in and help people, is to really figure out, are the organizations, are those foundations well managed and well, you know, run by an organization?

Barbara Carswell [00:07:55] Is your board structure effective? Do you, do, are your meetings run well? Do your, do you have the relevant policies in place? You know, is there leadership development? Is there succession building? All of those parts that, you know, nobody in a regular business would question as being necessary for some reasons, nonprofit organizations are in a heightened scrutiny.

Vance Crowe [00:08:24] Yeah, I think like there's like a clearing pressure in a, in a capitalist market where you're like, oh, well, if you don't do those things well, your company like fails. But a, a nonprofit could persuade people to thinking that they're doing well and not have those things in place.

Barbara Carswell [00:08:40] That's right. That's, well, although, you know, there is a very, there are very strict public disclosure requirements. So every nonprofit needs to fill out, every nonprofit unless they are associated or, or connected to a church needs to file a tax return. A nonprofit doesn't pay taxes, but they still need to file a tax return. And that is really for disclosure. And so, you know, you can, if you take a closer look at those public documents, you can discern and see at least if they have the, the, the basic requirements for good governance in place. But I also do believe that, you know, that when I look at a business at a for-profit business and the amount of work and the setbacks it takes to develop good products, when you think about a nonprofit, they are always expected to have programs that are, you know, we call that in our whole world evidence-based, but that are proven to be impactful and do the right thing without, or with really having a very difficult time for somebody to pay for that path to get to those products, to

Vance Crowe [00:10:05] Those That's true. Like, like I see, because when you're running a business, you're like, ah, we tried that thing and it didn't work. And oh, we had some people running that program and we had to get rid of 'em, and that took some time and that put us setbacks. But as long as you keep going, you're okay. And people have a, a high level of scrutiny to say, don't make mistakes nonprofit, because we may punish you by not giving you any more money. That's

Barbara Carswell [00:10:26] Exactly right. So we had, my foundation actually a few years ago developed a program, a grant program that specifically funds the, those type of new more innovative programs with maybe not an expectation, but certainly a, a permission to let that program not be successful and fail. Because we do want to encourage an organization to, well, first of all, we do, we, we all want innovative organizations just like we want innovative companies, we want innovative nonprofits because we know that a lot of the established programs have not worked. So we need to encourage that innovation. And, you know, allowing, allowing for that failure, I think is an important part to getting there.

Vance Crowe [00:11:16] Yeah. Because nobody, that's an interesting thing to, to have a grant that specifically allows for that because nobody wants to fail, but in particular, you don't want to have like a, ah, we set up this whole thing and found out, eh, it didn't do the thing we wanted to do. Right. But even worse, if it doesn't do the thing you wanna do, but you keep it going because you don't want the failure.

Barbara Carswell [00:11:33] Right. And then you, and I think that's happens with a lot of nonprofits, you know, then they go to a donor and they put it in a, in, in, in a good light and always highlight the successes. Because typically a program is of mixed success, right? It's either, it's, you have very few situations where this is like, you get a hundred percent success rate. So you, you, you're somewhat meddling in the middle. And then because you need your donors so desperately, you go out and you, you know, highlight the successes about it. And so I, I think that's probably not a good way to, to move forward rather, you know, cut that program and admit this is not working.

Vance Crowe [00:12:24] So I think for most people when they're looking at like, oh, should I donate some money? You know, we try and put money out, but they don't have a lot of resources. They look at things like Charity Navigator or any of these things where there's a number, right? And that number says, ah, I don't know what, I don't know what the numbers are, but let's say it's a outta 10, this thing has seven stars. A group like Charity Navigator would have a lot of power in those situations by just coming up with like a single number or just a couple of numbers. What do you, what are your thoughts on those types of groups?

Barbara Carswell [00:12:57] I think, I actually think they are good because they do hold organizations accountable and do support donor reliance. And I think trust build, build more trust. I think the, the often the issue, particularly with Charity Navigator is it doesn't, it doesn't look at every organization. And so you are in small, in a smaller community somewhere, for example, and you know that you have, you know, a number of organizations doing important work there. You, you may not find that organizational charity navigator because they, they are, they have not looked at every organization. So then I think you run into the issue that because a donor isn't certain, am I doing, you know, am I throwing my money away or am I really, you know, able to make a difference and do something good? They might stay, they may stay clear of the one that is not featured in Charity Navigator and go to another better known and, and larger organization because they say, okay, I have the, the sign of approval from Charity nav, the seal of approval from Charity Navigator here.

Vance Crowe [00:14:11] And does your organization do the types of things that Charity Navigator does?

Barbara Carswell [00:14:15] We, we, we do with, you know, we do when we, when our clients ask us to do that. Yes. So in situations that we work with, we take a, we take a closer look, we ask for basically sets of applications to us, and we look at, we look at financials, which is closely aligned with what the chair, what Charity Navigator does, for example. We look at the type of programs. But then, you know, the other thing I think that, that you, that somebody misses when they're looking at, at a, at only a charity navigator, philanthropy or charitable giving is, is so driven by somebody's passion beyond just the interest. And I think matching the, the, the right organization with someone's passion is something that you can't really do just by looking at a sheet of, you know, a screen or a sheet of paper that gives you a rating about an organization. Because you don't really, you can say, you can see, okay, this is the type of program that they, that they do, for example. But you don't know the people that work at that organization. You don't know the culture that they have. You don't know you, you, we wouldn't be able to say, I can somewhat this, these are the type of people in addition to the type of work that they do that I really want to support.

Barbara Carswell [00:15:50] I think that's a piece that is missing.

Vance Crowe [00:15:52] Yeah. 'cause you, I can imagine if you're representing a, a, a family trust and they say, Hey, we've put money in here that we wanna give away, the people in that trust want to find the projects they're passionate about, the things that they care about homelessness or kids without dads, but like, how are they going to take the time away from their regular jobs and the things that they're focused on to figure out what's really going on at these places? And so then you have this challenge. We, we have money to give away, but we don't know who to give it to.

Barbara Carswell [00:16:23] That's exactly, that's exactly right. And often they also feel not comfortable maybe asking some harder or critical questions to an organization. They sometimes don't feel comfortable saying no, they sometimes don't feel comfortable coming back and saying, Hey, I gave you money for this and that, and you didn't really do it. You really didn't do what you said, or you didn't do it in a timely manner. And so that's where we come in. We kinda, that's your job, the

Vance Crowe [00:16:53] Bad guys in between, is that right?

Barbara Carswell [00:16:56] Yes, yes, yes. And it takes an enormous burden of people because I have, I have gone with donors, for example, this, the one situation that vividly comes to my mind is I work with a donor who supports the school that her daughters attend high school, that her daughters attend. And the school fundra is a private school. And so the school has fundraisers and they obviously know that this is a family that can donate and that does donate. So they have meetings, and I think our, my client is sometimes uncomfortable in the situation where the girls are at school, at that school, you're sitting across from the headmaster, the fundraisers of the school. And yes, you want to give, but you may not want to give as much as they ask. And you don't wanna be the person who says no. And so, you know, me being there, I can ask the critical questions, the difficult questions that would, that would give my client a more in, be able to have my client make a more informed decision. I can be the one afterwards calling saying, no, we're not going to make that gift. And it's not only that, that is not my client making the gift, typically the, the way that we structure gifts, for example, with funds at my foundation also helps because it wouldn't be ultimately coming out of the client's personal checkbook at that time, but it would be a gift from us of one of her funds at, at our foundation.

Barbara Carswell [00:18:46] And so being able to say no and to clearly say no for whatever reason, I think puts her in a much more comfortable situation that she would be, have been able to make, you know, just on a one-on-one conversation. Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:19:01] I think anytime you have a proxy that can be like, well, it's, it's not me. I'm representing somebody else's interests and I'm just helping you to know what they want. Like there's, in our culture that's much, much more appropriate, but is an interesting service to, to, to deliver. How did you get into this world

Barbara Carswell [00:19:20] On a very curvy line? So I started out, I'm originally from Germany. I started out here in the United States working as an attorney tax, a tax lawyer, and then in, in DC and moved to St. Louis and stayed at home for several years to raise our son. And then when it was time for me to go back to work, I was out of my professional field for several years. And I had read that a lot of women make a second career nonprofit. So I became executive director of an education nonprofit and then eventually switched to kind of the foundation, the grant making world. And particularly as a, as a community foundation, not only do we help people give money away, we also work with their professional advisors, whether they are accountants, financial advisors, estate planning attorneys, to really figure out what is an, what is the best structure for a gift or for, you know, a a current gift of a, a long-term gift, an estate gift. What is the, what is the best tax driven or financial driven structure? So having been a tax attorney is a, is a really big benefit to that.

Vance Crowe [00:20:51] So let's open that up a little bit. Like, I think people generally know like, oh, if I, if I donate some money, then when I get my tax return, I get to write, I donated this much money. So it's that much less that they owe on their taxes. But like, how does this work from a wider view from the tax attorney's view?

Barbara Carswell [00:21:11] So you're absolutely right. That is, that's the general concept. You give money away and you get to take a tax deduction for it. Hopefully, you know, with the, for many people with the higher standard deductions, itemizing deductions doesn't make any sense anymore. And so they, there's, there's a, there's a big loss on, on, on charitable deductions, but for a large amount of people, they still itemize. And so charitable deductions lead to some form,

Vance Crowe [00:21:46] And this means, like if you say like writing down very, very specifically, I put this much money to the botanical gardens, I put this much money to the zoo, then you write it up. And for most people they get a standard deduction, which is like, we're just going to assume, right,

Barbara Carswell [00:22:02] That

Vance Crowe [00:22:02] You gave away this much money, whether you did or not. Or people are saying, no, I wanna make sure that my line items get matched up because it actually could be more than what your standard deduction is. Right?

Barbara Carswell [00:22:12] And your standard deduction takes care of more than just your charitable deduction, right? It's your mortgage, it's your state taxes, it's, it's a number of items. It's some medical expenses that you would typically otherwise put on that schedule a for, for itemized deductions. You now, all, you know, if they're not that large, you all put it in that standard deduction. But many people still are able to, to itemize their deduction. And so take specific charitable deductions. So the, in the example that you just described, you know, a number of gifts to different organizations, you would, you would make a number of gifts. And that is sometimes often that that works really well, but sometimes that's not the most tax efficient way to do it. So let's say you have a big cash event in any given year, you get you, you have money,

Vance Crowe [00:23:16] You sold the company, and now all of a sudden you,

Barbara Carswell [00:23:18] You sold the company, you got a big, if you're employed, you got a big bonus somewhere. You, you have, you, first of all, you have to be charitably inclined. You want to give money away, otherwise all of these, you know, transactions don't work. But, but let's say you, you just even a regular person who supports their church, maybe you know, some, a school and a few other organizations, and now you have all this money in one year. So you certainly don't want to give all that money away in this, in this one year to all these different organizations. You may say, well next year I might not have that much money. So is there a way how I could somehow put that money somewhere, take advantage of a tax deduction and actually make the ultimate gifts at a later time? And that is where this, these vehicles known as charitable funds, the, the most well known is a, is what's called a donor-advised fund come in. So you would, in a very specific example, you would establish a donor-advised fund with a community foundation like mine, like mine, like ours, like Youth Bridge Community Foundation. You would take advantage of your larger cash, you know, event and would put money into that fund because we are a public charity, you get an immediate tax deduction that year, but then you have that money in the fund, you invest it, it can grow, and then you ultimately on your own time and terms can distribute that money to the organizations that you want to support.

Barbara Carswell [00:25:05] So that's kind of the general tax concept behind it. Very basic. So it offers you the advantage of being able to basically time your charitable gift. The other advantage that it has is, you know, you were, you, you were talking earlier about I have these assets that most people, when they think about charitable gifts, they think about giving cash away. But we all know that 90% of the wealth in this country is in assets other than cash. And so particularly when you like to support smaller organizations, for example, sometimes they don't have the ability to accept gifts other than cash. So again, foundation like mine, we often get gifts other than cash into that don advised fund

Vance Crowe [00:26:07] Be more specific. So for somebody's so very, yeah, they, so

Barbara Carswell [00:26:10] Very, the most common one is public stock. So instead of, so, so let's say a few years ago you bought stock for $10 a share. Now it has grown to a hundred. And you said, I would like to make a charitable gift. You could sell that stock, you could have $90 in gain, you'd have to pay capital gains tax on that. You'd, and then you'd get a, you'd, you'd get a tax deduction for your $90 that you are ultimately, you know, giving away, but you'd also have to pay capital gains tax on that. So if you donate the stock that's worth a hundred, your organ, the organization that you support gets a hundred dollars gift because they are able to, they take the stock, then turn around, sell it, so they get, you know, a hundred dollars worth of gift. You are never taxed on your $90 in gain because it never hit your,

Vance Crowe [00:27:13] You never took a capital gain on it. Right. Okay. Alright.

Barbara Carswell [00:27:16] And you also get to take a hundred dollars tax deduction because you made a hundred dollars charitable gift.

Vance Crowe [00:27:22] Oh.

Barbara Carswell [00:27:23] But that, you know, some, most organizations by now are able to take these kind of gifts, but there are still some smaller ones that don't. So again, running that through a fund, running that through a don advised fund, for example, is a way how you can, you know, take advantage of, of that type of assets. But you talked about a business, for example, business interest. So you can, you can actually donate a, a, a part of your business, a share in your business. So we worked with a client a few years ago that transitioned, that transitioned his business to his son. So he set up and he was charitably inclined and knew that out of the proceeds from that sale or transition to his, to the next generation to his son, he wanted to have some money for charitable giving set aside so that the business created a certain class of shares. They established a donor-advised fund, they donated, or they, they contributed the shares into that donor-advised fund. We held the shares for a while, and then the company, which was then now owned by the sun, redeemed that stock back and, you know, for a certain price and funded the, the don't advised fund with it. So there are a number of situations, particularly in business transitions that charitable giving is actually really a really good way of ma again, minimizing your, your tax exposure.

Vance Crowe [00:29:07] I, I've heard people talk about the value of doing like donating art and that this is like, but I I don't Is it just the same as donating stock or how how does No, how does it work? Yeah.

Barbara Carswell [00:29:19] So donating art and donating stock, a lot of it depends on the amount that you can deduct. Because as I just, you know, showed you in that example about that stock gift, your stock that you bought for $10 and that has grown to a hundred dollars has this inherent gain of $90 that you want to avoid having to recognize for tax purposes. And in the case of of stock, you are able to take that full a hundred dollars value that you made as a gift, as a deduction with art and other pieces of what we call tangible properties. So, you know, things that you can grasp. See there is a, there is a, a, a criteria of whether you donate something that can be used that is, that is necessary for that organization's mission. So a piece of art that you donate to a museum, for example, to an art museum for you as a donor, will be treated differently for tax purposes than when you give this piece of art to a food pantry that then turns around and sells it.

Barbara Carswell [00:30:51] Because, you know, in that latter case, the food pantry is not using the art to carry out its mission. What that means for you as a donor is if your piece of art is now worth, you know, a thousand dollars, for example, you bought it somewhere for a hundred, you only get to deduct a hundred dollars

Vance Crowe [00:31:14] If you donated it to the art museum.

Barbara Carswell [00:31:16] No, to the food pantry.

Vance Crowe [00:31:17] To the food pantry,

Barbara Carswell [00:31:18] Yeah. Right. If you donated it to the art museum, then you get to you, you get to deduct the value of it because it is carried on in, in that organization's, you know, it is part of that organization's mission. But if it's donated to the food pantry, which really doesn't need the art to carry out the mission, it needs the money, the value from the art to carry out the mission, then you as a donor only get to deduct whatever it costs you to.

Vance Crowe [00:31:50] Oh, this is interesting. And I would imagine there are like games, make it sound not, not like on the board, but like you could probably set up situations in which you give it to an art museum and you still own it for a while, right. While it's appreciating. Right. But they're taking care of the art, right?

Barbara Carswell [00:32:07] There are all these, there are all these structures and I will tell you to, you know, all your listeners on, on this podcast, you always have to be very, very careful when you donate particularly pieces of, of tangible property, but also you know, more complicated assets. You have to be very careful when you do that to really work closely with your accountant because in addition to what is the appropriate amount to deduct, there are also reporting requirements that the IRS is really, really strict about. And so you can just miss a, what you think is a very small formality, and it, there are enough cases, court cases out there, and they can result in a, you know, huge loss of your expected deduction

Vance Crowe [00:33:05] That you don't get. Like what? Like what, what's a tiny formality that somebody didn't, didn't take care of

Barbara Carswell [00:33:09] That you need for, for gifts like the art or, or, or other pieces. You need appraisals, for example. And those appraisals need to be done on a certain, like everything, you know, needs to be documented on a certain tax form with certain requirements on an appraiser for an appraiser, but they also need to be done contemporaneously at the time of the gift. So you have to meet a certain timeframe, you can't get something appraised. And it's like, okay, yeah, three years ago I had this appraisal and now I'm going to donate that. So there are, there are very specific requirements that all need to happen and that all need to come together at the right time to really make these types of gifts to be recognized as a charitable gift and expenditure.

Vance Crowe [00:33:59] So what are the other ways in which people that are thinking about donating money and also using it as a, as a way to protect their themselves from tax events that people might not think of if they're not in this world.

Barbara Carswell [00:34:16] So I, I would think to, to really think about in terms of assets, what is there that, you know, that I have wealth in and that I could possibly use to, to fund my, my shareholder interest. So, you know, we touched on the stock, we touched on the business interest real estate is, is, is another big piece that people often donate that they said, okay, I have a, I don't know what second house, an

Vance Crowe [00:34:51] Apartment complex or okay.

Barbara Carswell [00:34:52] Or, you know, as just, just a, just a piece of real estate, a house or an apartment or something that I really don't need or none of my kids need. So I could donate that to, to charity. So that's, that's in terms of the asset. The other piece is, and we haven't really talked about that are our, our types of structures. So think about saying yes, you know, I I would like to support whatever organization, particularly as I get older though, I also need money. And I'm worried about if I give, you know, that money away now, I won't have,

Vance Crowe [00:35:37] I live, I end up living till I'm a hundred and now I'm not gonna have access to that money. So

Barbara Carswell [00:35:42] Right. Or I want to provide for, I don't know, some, some other person, you know, even still in, in, in my lifetime. So there are certain structures that you can do, whether they are trusts, there's, there's what's called a charitable remainder trust, but there's also a, a what's called a charitable gift annuity that are structures where you actually make a gift. And the gift that you make to the charity is paying you back for certain terms of years. So in, in the sense of a gift annuity and a, and a and a trust, they are just set up a little bit different as legal structures. But the concept is the same. You contribute, let's say a hundred thousand dollars either directly to charity or to a trust that then pays out, you get money back during your lifetime or you and your wife get money back during their lifetimes, or a son or whoever you set this up, or a nephew gets money back during their lifetime or for a certain amount of years. And then the remainder of that goes to charity. So it's not often a question of, okay, I have to give it away all at once now, or, you know, in part with that money completely and never see it again. There are these type of, of, of structures where you actually give the money away, but you for a certain amount of time get to keep some.

Barbara Carswell [00:37:17] There is that situation also for a house, for example, that you live in right now. You say, I would like to give my, you know, house that I live in ultimately to charity, but I need to live in for that house for a while still. So you can give that house on today to charity, but you can retain a life interest in, in living in that house. And

Vance Crowe [00:37:44] So then you could take the tax deduction in that year when you say, Hey, I'm giving this away. Let's say the house is worth $200,000.

Barbara Carswell [00:37:52] You cannot, I you don't take a full deduction, but it does have some tax benefits to it as well. Okay. And this is actually a way how, you know, a lot of people, for example, a fund going into a retirement home, if that retirement home is run as a nonprofit organization as well, because they donate that house. They say, okay, 10 years down the road, I'm going down into that retirement home. And so on day one, they donate the house to the retirement home, but retain an interest in it for 10 years to live in it and then use that donation as part of their expenses at the retirement home. So you, you get into really complicated tax structures there, but you know, it just kind of shows you that the charitable giving goes way beyond just giving a, a transactional gift basically of a, you know, of a check to your favorite charity. No.

Vance Crowe [00:38:57] And if you were giving away your house, just like the art to an art museum, but if you were giving away your house to be used, so let's imagine, hey, I'm gonna use th this house is now going to be become a place for disabled children. Right,

Barbara Carswell [00:39:10] Right, right.

Vance Crowe [00:39:11] Does that change the nature of the gift in the same way that art does?

Barbara Carswell [00:39:16] Whether it changes by, well I don't, I don't know. No, I don't think so. I think real estate is in terms of you give the house to an organization that would actually really use it for their, for their mission and their purpose. Yes. You get, you get, it's, it's basically treated like stock.

Vance Crowe [00:39:38] Okay. Yes. It's, that's for the value.

Barbara Carswell [00:39:40] And then an organization, you know, plenty of organizations get houses that have no need for it. We have received real estate that just as a gift to fund the fund. And then again, we just, we turn around and those organizations would turn around and sell that property. I will say you often get a phone call from, from people that are interested in giving, in donating a piece of real estate to a, to a charity. And then it turns out that the real estate itself is really not that valuable or it's not that sellable and you don't want to, you know, you'll, you'll have a hard time donating that.

Vance Crowe [00:40:21] I see. Because like somebody might imagine, hey, I don't have to go through the trouble of selling this property. Exactly. I can give it away. And then the place getting it is like, well, we don't wanna have to.

Barbara Carswell [00:40:31] Well, and there's a lot of costs associated, right?

Vance Crowe [00:40:32] Yes. Yeah. You gotta pay taxes and you gotta make sure it's maintenance and insurance on it and

Barbara Carswell [00:40:36] Right.

Vance Crowe [00:40:37] So you said you were an executive director, which means you were on the side of the fence where you are needing money from other people, from the generosity of other people. Let's talk about like the experience of the person that is a development director, right? They're trying to develop relationships, they're trying to build the, the, I don't know, the opportunity to ask for money. Excuse me,

Barbara Carswell [00:41:03] Can we pause for a minute?

Vance Crowe [00:41:03] Yep.

Barbara Carswell [00:41:04] A restroom break?

Vance Crowe [00:41:05] Yeah. Alright,

Barbara Carswell [00:41:07] I'll be back in just a moment.

Vance Crowe [00:41:08] Okay, sure.

Barbara Carswell [00:41:10] That's actually really interesting.

Vance Crowe [00:41:12] What's that?

Barbara Carswell [00:41:13] Your questions are very interesting.

Vance Crowe [00:41:14] Good. Oh, I'm glad to hear. Yeah. This is, I'm, I'm totally engaged. This is like something I'm, I I'm, I'm very interested in and I'm certain that

Barbara Carswell [00:41:23] It's very complex.

Vance Crowe [00:41:25] Yes, yes. It's

Barbara Carswell [00:41:26] Very complex and, you know, nobody should ever go and make a gift, you know, and with, I, I think the, the problem is really with those expectations often in terms of really figuring out what the, what the structures need to be. I mean that's, that gets into really sophisticated estate planning. Financial

Vance Crowe [00:41:44] Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. I imagine there's a lot of creativity in this space. Yes, yes. The, the right,

Barbara Carswell [00:41:48] The right

Vance Crowe [00:41:48] Accountant, the right attorney. Yes. The right, like could come up with some,

Barbara Carswell [00:41:52] There is a trust. So, you know, there's that trust that I just mentioned that's called a charitable remainder trust, where you put the money in the trust, you, you get the people, whether it's you as the donor, the grantor, or you know, others will get money for their lifetime or a certain amount of years. And then the remainder goes to charity. There is also the reverse where charity gets, you set up a trust, charity gets money for a certain amount of time, and then the remainder goes to back to you as the Korean tour. Oh,

Vance Crowe [00:42:26] Wow.

Barbara Carswell [00:42:27] And people use that, that is so complicated. You have to have a, the right interest rate structure because the, the whole de deductibility of charitable deduction, right? This is where you get into this time value of money and what can I deduct at that certain amount of time. So you need to have this, the right interest rate environment as well as certain type of assets in there. They put like a lot of, I think, municipal bonds and others because that trust in itself is a taxable entity. And so, but when you, you know, combine that with like tax free assets, I mean, it's so complicated. So we don't, we don't do that. We are the type of people who know enough about that we're, you know, we can talk to the financial advisors and I can run like illustrations on how this would look like. And, but we are the recipients often of these charitable payouts. Because you know, when you think about situations like that, that you know, on day one when you set this up, what charities you want this to go through is to go to is really not likely. You may know, okay, I want this to go to these maybe, you know, two or three charities. There may be others, there may not. So if you let all of this go into a donor-advised fund, you're much better off.

Barbara Carswell [00:43:58] 'cause then at a later point, you know, you have the charity that's the recipient officially, IE the donor-advised fund. But you have, you take your time to really then say, or figure out where you want this ultimately gift, this ultimate gift to go to.

Vance Crowe [00:44:12] And so you're an executive director of a, of a charity and that means you were on the other side of the fence where you were actually needing the generosity of others. And that requires raising money. And I think the, like colloquial term now is a development director. Let's talk about like, what does it feel like to be on the other side of the fence trying to build relationships and then ultimately making that ask for money?

Barbara Carswell [00:44:42] It is, I I, so I'm going back in time when I did, you know, when I was executive director back then. And I think most often it's just like anything else, it's a huge learning experience because you, you, you start out in this job, I think being intimidated often by your donors or your potential donors because you perceive them as people that have money and that can decide not only, you know, are they supporting the organization that you work for, but also in a way are they supporting your professional career, right? Because you're, you make a career in that field, so you have to show something for your work and your gifts are the, the product of your work. So I think people are often, when they start out, are really intimidated, hopefully they develop in their career that they really learn to build the relationship with the donors and really realize that a donor gives out of a deeply human feeling and, and and sense that whatever motivates them, whether they just wanna do something good, whether they, you know, have a loved one that, you know, struggles with a disease or disability.

Barbara Carswell [00:46:18] And so it affects them immediately and they want to support organizations that do that type of work or whether, you know, they, it's, it's their church or school that they want to give. And so I think once, once you are as a, as a direct, as an executive director or a development director, when you understand where these donors come from, then I think you can really start building the relationship with them. And then it's not so much about, I I have to make an ask for the need of my organization. It's kind of you, you really able to, to turn that around into saying, I'm really wanting to help that donor because I know we're the right organization doing that type of work in carrying that mission that that person is passionate about and wants to support. And so your transactional, I'm going to make an ask is really going to turn much more into a partnership or quote unquote friendship where you know, you, you tell your story and about the work that you do and your donor will say, yes, I want to help them.

Vance Crowe [00:47:34] I wanna be a part of that. Yeah,

Barbara Carswell [00:47:35] I wanna be a part of them. I wanna help them get to where they need to get.

Vance Crowe [00:47:37] That transition you're talking about is remarkably similar to sales, right? Where sales is really transactional. If you're saying like, Hey, I have this widget and I wanna see if I can get you to pay for this widget, versus like, Hey, this widget solves a problem that you have and let's like find, like let's find the right way to get this widget integrated into what you're doing is development sales.

Barbara Carswell [00:48:01] It is, part of it is sales, but it shouldn't be really, that's not, you know, the, that's not the good piece. I think to be fair, you probably have to start off in a way because you have to figure out who are the people that, you know, you have to find that person that is interested. But in the long run, if you are, if you are strategy and it's not a sale of a, of a, you know, a gadget for a nonprofit, it's, it's typically kind of that, oh, there's this huge need out there, come and support the need. That's kind of, I see as the, as the equivalent to, you know, that that gadget that your widget that that you are trying to sell and you need to be able, yes. So in that regard, I would say that is that sales component. But you need to be able to say there's a need, but you need to now be able to really turn that into really helping your, helping your donor.

Vance Crowe [00:49:03] You're a development director, you're just starting out in your career. How do you find people that want to give money away to begin with?

Barbara Carswell [00:49:13] That's a, yeah, that's always a sub a struggle for somebody. You, you really should start. And I think there's always the notion, and particularly you get that from a lot of boards saying, we need to find new donors, we need to find more donors, we need to find new donors. And so maybe that concept of just going out and finding all these people is the wrong, is the wrong point to start. You really should build on the existing relationships that you have. So whether they are with your existing donors that you want to see, well, you know, Joe Smith really likes what we do and Joe Smith is, is has been very supportive of us, but nobody has really ever gotten to know Joe Smith and I'm going to spend some time in knowing him a little bit more. And so, you know, because you do that and because you really understand Joe Smith and what he's particularly interested in your organization about, so his a hundred dollars annual gift may now turn into a thousand dollars, for example, because he really gets to know your organization so much better. So, so that is one way to start this. The second start is go to your board and see, you know, people that have joined a board of an organization typically do that already because they have an interest in the organization.

Barbara Carswell [00:50:49] So they are, there is a, there is for a lot of organization and expectation that a board member contributes financially, but again, that expectation is very transactional. So getting to know your board member and really understanding why, why are they on there? Why are they on this board? Why are they interested in what we do? Helps, helps you potentially, you know, to raise some more money from there. But they also, you, you start to develop your board members into being really good ambassadors for you as an organization because it's one thing for a staff member to go out and find the people then, you know, build the relationships, make the case. But if you are a board member of an organization and you go out to dinner with your friends and you say, Hey, I'm on the board of this organization and I'm really, really passionate about that organization and let me tell you about, you know, why I like them. And you say that to your friend, you're not really asking them for money, but they may get really interested and excited as well. And so that that kind of developing that we call that in our world as this professional term of a whole culture of philanthropy in the organization that really saying it is everybody's responsibility to go out and build the relationships that, that bring the support of your organization, I think is a, is an invaluable tool for a development directed to, to find new sources of money.

Vance Crowe [00:52:30] Yeah, I don't Did you watch the show Mad Men at all?

Barbara Carswell [00:52:33] I did. So

Vance Crowe [00:52:34] One of the most fascinating scenes I remember because I I worked in nonprofits and have been on the boards before, is they, they they approach Don Draper and they say, you've just been invited to be on a board, right? And this is a big moment because they're saying one of the benefits of being a part of this is that you will get to meet other people that are spending their times on boards. Is that, is that an accurate representation that people get to be a part of, like a, a different side of culture when they're on boards?

Barbara Carswell [00:53:04] I think for some organization it is, you know, in the nonprofit world, just like in like in so many other aspects of our lives, there is really a difference between, between organizations, between what I would call maybe the institutions in, in, in a certain community versus the smaller organizations that are often grassroots or, or, you know, work more in the trenches. And so people that will join boards of certain well-known institutions, I would say go in probably with that expectation that there is a lot of that, you know, there's a lot of opportunity for kind of networking at the, at that level. There are also often very high financial expectations from board of board members to contribute to the organization. So it is certainly, I I think it, and that's probably the type of board that, you know,

Vance Crowe [00:54:14] Yeah, they were doing management

Barbara Carswell [00:54:15] That Don Draper was, was going on versus, you know, more the grassroots, smaller organizations that often get board members really for their professional expertise. So, you know, they, we all have, I mentioned that earlier, right? The governance, the good governance structure of a board. And so part of really probably the most important responsibility of a board member is to make sure that the financials of an organization are sound. So you do need to review a financial statement every month or so as a board member, you will want to have a CPA on a board typically who can, you know, read a financial statement, understand that you will want, I don't know, depending on what the mission of the organization is, maybe somebody who works in that field professionally, you will want to have a lawyer on there. So, so smaller organizations really recruit board members for their professional experience versus the larger ones and the better established ones, better known ones that often recruit people for their statue in the community.

Vance Crowe [00:55:30] When you're a development director, you meet with maybe your manager and you kind of get together and you put together like an ask for people, how does that get set up? How does, how does a nonprofit decide how much they're going to approach a person for?

Barbara Carswell [00:55:45] There's a lot of research behind it. So there are all types of commercial products available that actually tell you about the wealth of a person. And so at again, at least the larger organizations that have the resources to buy those type of software will invest in it and clearly draw up donor profiles. The smaller ones that may not, you know, be able to invest in that type of sophisticated product though too, will, will internally somehow, you know, develop a profile of a donor or a potential donor and really figure out what are the connections that that person has, what, what's the giving history? So somebody who will, you know, for 10 years for example, will have made a hundred dollars gift every year to an organization. You know, that that person is supportive of the cause. I don't think you need to go back to that person and try to convince them that about the value of the type of, you know, work that you do. They already show that by having supported you for 10 years, but they also may have a much higher potential than just a hundred dollars every year.

Barbara Carswell [00:57:17] And so in that situation, you probably want to think about some kind of plan of really this is the exact type of donor where it's time to kind of maybe make that transition from that transactional a hundred dollar gift to really learn more about that person.

Vance Crowe [00:57:36] Yeah, I remember, oh, go ahead.

Barbara Carswell [00:57:37] And then, you know, see is that a person who is, you know, maybe is just going to give us now, I don't know what 250, 500, a thousand dollars a year or is that even a person that if we really approach them with a specific program that could make, make a major gift to our organization or, you know, even further down the road that we can continue talking about and that maybe is interested to, to make a gift from the estate. So there are, I don't think that there is, nobody will have just one plan. I mean it's to, to really do this well you will, it will be so don tailored and so individually tailored.

Vance Crowe [00:58:26] Yeah. Meaning that if you are running a summer camp and you say, oh, we need new cabins, maybe this is time when we go ask Mr. John Smith, Hey, would you, you know, we've seen you donated a hundred dollars a year for 10 years, you've really been a great supporter. Would you, would you like to give a larger gift and then we would be able to get this cabin built right? And because he was a camper there and sees the value in it, that might be a time when he steps up, right?

Barbara Carswell [00:58:51] But

Vance Crowe [00:58:51] Because you've done the research, you know, he can afford it. He just maybe hasn't been asked.

Barbara Carswell [00:58:56] Right? But you also should have probably had lunch with him three, two to three times before without asking him for anything. I think that's the other piece. And I will tell you now that I work on the other side, now that I am a donor or work with donors, I am still really surprised by how, how little nonprofits invest in that time of just the plain thank you. And by that I don't just mean a plain thank you of I'm writing you a thank you note. I think at least you pick up the phone and call, but you go out with it, you invite that person for lunch and you, or you know, if you don't feel comfortable, if that's not possible physically you pick up the phone, but not just to say thank you, but also to, to just tell them what's going on in the organization and what has, what has your gift accomplished. And even if it's a hundred dollars gift that was part of, you know, a $10,000 project, you really, you talk about that, that big project and what the gift has meant and you do not ask at that point. And the largest gift, honestly, that I have seen happening from donors have come out of absolutely no ask. It is just that an that, you know, an organization has taken the time to think and appropriately and keep that donor informed about what is going on in the organization and how their gift has contributed

Vance Crowe [01:00:36] To it. So I'm super curious though, if you are a donor and you, you know, that people see you as having a lot of money and you go out to several lunches with a person that's trying to raise money in the back of your mind, are you like, here comes the ask, oh here comes the ask or how does that, how does that go? Right?

Barbara Carswell [01:00:55] Oh, I, I'm sure I'm absolutely sure, but then how nice it is if you don't get asked.

Vance Crowe [01:00:59] Is it nice?

Barbara Carswell [01:01:00] I think it is nice often because I do think that you do want to eventually being asked, right? But you don't want to go and see somebody once a year and say, okay, here is exactly that situation what they, what you just described. They are super friendly to me because they know I have money, they take me out once a year, they're going to ask me how refreshing is it? I think because you can always say no if you don't have the time and just be taken out or, you know, write a, write a letter and, and just, you know, tell them what's going on. I will now go back to our, you know, to the start of the conversation. I think again, this is, this is where the help with the giving can come in because, you know, I, as, as working with donors know a lot about them than any individual organization does because you also always have to think about when you think about your own charitable interest and where you give to, you don't just give to one organization, right? You give to I think the average is like five or six that organizations that that people give to. And so I as a kind of, as a, as as an advisor know that donor and know that person's entire interest and what they like and how they like to interact.

Barbara Carswell [01:02:37] So as the intermediary, I can also work with the nonprofits and advise them on this is this is really what this donor is expecting. And so I think I've helped a lot of organizations that way of saying, look, we have, I, I work with a donor for example, for whom it is extremely important that people take the time to, you know, go out with him and tell him what's going on. That people don't just send a three line email saying thank you that, but that they also use his very generous gift, maybe not officially as a match, but as a tool to get others to give. So he wants to see that money used that way. I am able to tell that to an organization. I think, you know, again, we go back to our initial part of the conversation, if it was just the, the, the, the donor and the nonprofit relationship that probably that knowledge would never come through right? Then I work with, with another family that doesn't care about that type of work at all, that that type of thank you at all. Because their giving is very structured and they come together as a family board twice a year and they ask for, you know, very formal applications from organizations and they do go and they do go out and visit those organizations.

Barbara Carswell [01:04:24] But they are all about doing that in a very structured way and getting an, an official report back. And for them it's all about that whole process of having an organized giving versus that donor stewardship and that really personal touch.

Vance Crowe [01:04:45] So what is the type of family that comes to you or, or a trust group that comes to you? Do they have to have a certain amount of money in order to be able to use the resources?

Barbara Carswell [01:04:54] No, they don't. They, we, we work in one capacity or the others with all different types of levels of financial, financial levels. I would say people that, you know, have smaller amounts. They typically come to us because we help them set up a good structure. You know, one of those funds that I mentioned that they will use more as a, as a savings account type for charitable giving. And then, you know, we have others that, that do come to us. And I loosely use the term family because sometimes they are a family in the sense that you, that you think of a family, you know, multi-generational. Sometimes it is a situation of family members slash friends of an original donor that come together as a group. Sometimes it's a single person that, you know, is a divorcee and has, you know, has children that are not yet involved in the giving. So, so, you know, it's, it's all it, it is all different types of, of, of really donors that come and that we help. And again, it's very, very specific about somebody's situation and about somebody's wish and intent, what to do with money.

Vance Crowe [01:06:20] So let's talk about that. When people come to you, do they already know what they wanna donate to?

Barbara Carswell [01:06:26] Some do and some don't. The ones that that do, some of them again, don't require a whole lot of our help outside of just basically using our platform to do this in an efficient way. Others know exactly where they want to give to, but are very, are not organized. And so we help them put all their giving together in a more organized way, even if it's just putting together that fund where everything comes out of one pot of money and showing them in big spreadsheets of, you know, here's where your money goes to these specific types of areas and an organization that helps 'em gain an overview. And then you have others that, that just, that come and say, I'm interested in, for example, early childhood or I'm interested in education, or I'm interested in making, you know, helping the homeless. And then we start working with them on helping identify what are, you know, organizations that they may want to support.

Vance Crowe [01:07:41] So you've been in the, you've focused on the St. Louis region. I've been living here for about 10 years. St. Louis seems like dire straits in some ways, particularly downtown. What do you see about the, the needs that are going on in the community that somebody that's not doing your work might not see

Barbara Carswell [01:08:00] There are, there, there are a lot and, and I agree there is, you know, it seems to, to people always, we always read the bad things about St. Louis. And we, and, and we certainly have so many problems and, and, and, and particularly around violence that make people really feel very pessimistic about St. Louis. But I can also tell you that there is, that there is a lot, a lot of work going on that and a, a lot of good work and a lot of momentum. I think that is that, you know, I'm hopeful that ultimately will lead some results. What what I think that people, you know, often may, may not know or, or should think about is, is really, you know, a lot of the problems that we see are symptoms of, of, you know, rather than they, they're symptoms of something rather than really the, the root cause of it. So I am really, so we as a foundation focus a lot of our work around children and children and families. So we, so I believe education is obviously a critical piece of a, of a, of a child's life in starting early, we know is, you know, children that start early in, in, in a good or decent education are much more likely to be successful later in life.

Barbara Carswell [01:09:35] But I always go back to the situation where a child cannot even learn if it's not connected to its family and not connected to the community. So a lot of work really needs to go on at the, at a at a community development level. I'm very excited. We as a foundation do some of some actually of our financial investments now in communities. I think housing, when you think about the city of St. Louis, there are some really, you know, areas that have a lot of empty, lots rundown houses. But when you look a lot of, at a lot of these places, people live there, children live, their families live there, and a lot of the housing stock is really actually pretty housing stock. So to, to really start investing into those neighborhoods and, and create neighborhoods again that, you know, center around, I don't know, a church, a grocery store, a bank and, and all these, all these places that we take for granted is, is an important piece. And, and there is a lot of work done and work being done. And so I I do think that that that is something that people should take hope in for our, for our community and should support, you know, the other overarching, but, but that is, you know, that is an issue that is facing the entire nation is that we really have a crisis with young people with mental health. I was reading, and this has already been pre COVID and everything has gotten so much worse after COVID, but even pre COVID, we had in, and this is in our suburbs, almost 20% of teenagers have thought about suicide.

Barbara Carswell [01:11:24] So the the thought of that suicide is even somewhere an option in somebody's head. And how many young people really struggle with mental health issues, depression, anxiety, consider, and some, you know, succumb to suicide is, is is awful. So I think, you know, mental health is, is just a very, very important part of, of, of our, you know, of, of, of our support that we need to give now.

Vance Crowe [01:12:01] Yeah, I think that goes in line with all the things you were describing before. I mean, I had a, a guest on the podcast if you weeks ago, Yosha Bach actually also from Germany that talked about community, the lack of community being one of the biggest drivers of people not having strong mental health. And it's because community gives you hope. It gives you something to be a part of, it gives you a way to lift up and if you don't have housing and if you have violence and if you parents, you know, family structures aren't good, like it, it's nearly impossible to imagine how you would have a community that would keep people out of this. And then on top of that, I don't think the mental health is just in those areas. Like if I zoom the camera lens out right, it's going on in, you know, like the nice suburbs of St. Louis. Absolutely. And it's like a, a real challenge because you, like I always described that I grew up in like a 1950s style community and I mean, I didn't know anyone in that was contemplating suicide and maybe it certainly it was going on with some people, people didn't have as like, as integrated of lives as I did. But like it does seem like it is a lot bigger of a problem now.

Barbara Carswell [01:13:11] It is now, you know, having said that, I was at a, i I was at a dinner the other night and a gentleman asked me, he said, I have always given to my church and to my alma mater. And now he wasn't that explicit, but he basically said, now I have a family member that has, as he described it, issues should I support organizations that support that

Vance Crowe [01:13:45] That issue,

Barbara Carswell [01:13:46] That issue, that type of work. Fortunately somebody else jumped in into that conversation and said, well, it's a neither nor, and, and I agree with that, right? And I always take the, I always take the approach with every donor that I work with is I would never steer anybody in any direction of what people should give to. Right? There are issues that we are aware of and that have become more to the forefront, but to me there is not a good or bad charity or, or good or bad cause or anything that should be, you know, is preferable one over the other. Somebody you know, maybe completely passionate about art and is supporting art museums or various cultural institutions that is, you know, as valuable and important as somebody who is supporting the mental health organizations.

Vance Crowe [01:14:47] That's an important distinction for you.

Barbara Carswell [01:14:49] I I I do, I do, I do not pass judgment on that.

Vance Crowe [01:14:52] Yeah, because I was, as we were talking about earlier in the conversation when I said about charity navigator, right? I was describing that as like an immense amount of power, right? Right. Because if they decide, ah, you know, their financials don't look that good, we're gonna downgrade them. That could, that could leave the, that could really leach a lot of money out of an organization. Maybe it's a good thing, but like it's a lot of power. And in your case too, right? If people are coming and they're saying, we trust you to help us get our money towards the activities that we think are benefiting the world, and you, you, you, you are picking and choosing, that's a lot of responsibility,

Barbara Carswell [01:15:29] Right? Where I do pick and choose is within that certain field that, you know, the donor that I work with has identified because I do, I I do believe that there are organizations that are stronger than others. You know, mine is, and I am a little bit in that charity navigator field, I look at organizations very much from a financial perspective because I do want to tell my donor, I I wanna make sure that when somebody supports an organization, that that organization is going to be around, You know, we can all have different opinions on effectiveness of programs. I think you have to be such a specialist in a, in, in a very specific area to really say one specific program is better than the other. And again, let's go back to art because then it's really easy, right? So somebody, you have the contemporary museum versus a traditional museum, for example, that you want to support, right? There is not one that's better than other, it's just, it's very different types of art. But what I would be looking at is, is the contemporary, as you know, art is, is the, is the one museum financially as sound and resilient as the other one. And if I see that it's not because, for example, they don't have any reserves.

Barbara Carswell [01:17:01] They, you know, constantly run deficits. They just, you know, basically survive on an annual appeal and a goal that they have to meet every year. I would not recommend that organization to my donor. So, because I would just say,

Vance Crowe [01:17:18] Because it'd be horrible if their, their art went up for auction, for to pay debts that day, right? They would go out

Barbara Carswell [01:17:23] The business. So, you know, that's that that type of recommendation. Yes, I do that.

Vance Crowe [01:17:32] What a what an interesting like world to have to be in. How do you keep track of all, you must go to a lot of lunches.

Barbara Carswell [01:17:41] I do, I do go, yes. It's, it, it was quite during CO now it's picking up a little bit. Yes, I do go out a lot to a lot of, there are, there are, you know, there are a lot of community events, gatherings, groups that I belong to.

Vance Crowe [01:17:57] Are you a social butterfly? You don't strike me as a social butterfly.

Barbara Carswell [01:18:01] I'm not a antisocial by any means. No, I do, I do like to go out. It's really mostly about learning, you know, what, what's happening in a in our community who's doing the good work, sharing with my peers at other foundations. So yes, there is, I am out and about a good bit.

Vance Crowe [01:18:24] Well, I think you'd have to be, but like, in order to know what all is going on, like there are so many organizations, what are the types of organizations that you think are in a community like St. Louis that people don't know anything at all about?

Barbara Carswell [01:18:41] I don't know. There are too many of them to say. I, I will just tell you this honestly, because I think the first thing that you hear about nonprofits is like, we're always the best, the best kept secret. I think there

Vance Crowe [01:18:54] You mean that nonprofits say that about themselves? Yeah,

Barbara Carswell [01:18:56] About themselves,

Vance Crowe [01:18:57] Exactly. Because

Barbara Carswell [01:18:59] It is so difficult to get the, you know, I thought about this often. I think it's, it's on the one hand difficult to get to, to get your message out because people are inundated with so much. But I remember one time I was visiting an organization in Jefferson County that is doing, that is actually a home for people with severe, severe disabilities. So those are people that cannot, absolutely, cannot live on their own that, for example, have to be on feeding tubes, have to be attended to two, three times, you know, a night. And I was thinking when I came and, and it's pretty hard to take, right? When you're not used to that and you visit places like that, it's hard to take for adults. I've visited places where children where in those situations, and I sometimes think that those organizations have a difficult time being out there and everybody being known because we don't wanna hear that, you know, we don't want to Do you want that in your face all the time? No,

Vance Crowe [01:20:12] No. To even think about it. Not even,

Barbara Carswell [01:20:13] Not even think about thing.

Vance Crowe [01:20:14] Yeah. Yes.

Barbara Carswell [01:20:16] And so I think sometimes it's, it's not that organizations are doing terrible work in their marketing. So first of all, they're all constrained by, you know, they don't have the marketing budget of like an Anheuser-Busch here in town or, or some other big company. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [01:20:33] And as soon as they do, they'll get dinged where you're spending too much money on marketing and not enough.

Barbara Carswell [01:20:38] So, so they have very, they have to do tremendous amount of work with very, very little, with very little money. And I think then that compounded that by often who wants to have their inbox flooded, right? With these messages of all these doom and gloom, it's, it's really difficult. That by the way, is also why you have such a burnout. I think, you know, that's, which is a real problem in the nonprofit world. You have an incredible burnout of staff, particularly, you know, the people that, that are in social services because they, they're not paid that well. They have very difficult jobs and it's, it takes an emotional toll to take that.

Vance Crowe [01:21:29] Gosh, your example is really good because it's visceral, right? And I think of the person, you know, they're always like, tell your story, tell your story, tell your story. And if what you're doing is telling the story over and over and over again about people that are severely disabled and that have to be cared for, and I, I mean, I've been to mental health homes where like the yelling itself, right? These are not things that the, the people can control, but it is like unnerving. And if that's the story you're telling over and over and over again, that's going to leave a mark on you. Yeah.

Barbara Carswell [01:21:58] I never forget. And you know, and I am not, I'm in that good position. I'm not, I'm the one funding those organizations. I don't work in that environment all the time. But I remember one day I was doing, I was visiting two or three organizations the same day, and I, and you know, they are all, all of them, what they have in common is they are addressing issues, shortfalls needs in our community. And so I went from one situation to the next to the third, and I came home and I thought, this is awful. I just, you know, I can't do that much because you start, and then I think I went out that night for dinner with my husband and I saw these people sitting around having a, you know, jolly good time. And I'm thinking that's really, you know, do they even know all the things that are happening and that are going on?

Vance Crowe [01:22:54] Yeah. And these are the, the, the hard part about life, right? Like when people look around, like a young person saying, I want to go out and change the world. I want to do something good. And look, these people are happy and there's so much suffering, but if you only stay in the suffering, right, it's hard to, to make a big difference. Well, Barbara, I had no idea where this conversation would go, but I'm so glad you came in. Good,

Barbara Carswell [01:23:16] Good, good.

Vance Crowe [01:23:17] If people wanted to learn more about your work Youth bridge or just in general, where, where could they go to hear more from you?

Barbara Carswell [01:23:25] The easiest place is probably just to go to our website. It's called youthbridge.org. And you know, there's all the contact information. If somebody really, you know, likes what they see, absolutely give us a call. We're a small team and super accessible and always really excited to talk to people.

Vance Crowe [01:23:46] Yeah. And I met Barbara because she gave a, a speech at a, at an event and I was like, man, she's really poised and, and interesting. And so we called you up and here we are. So thank you so much for coming up.

Barbara Carswell [01:23:56] Absolutely. Glad to have made the connection.