Former Teacher Explains Why School Still Uses 18th-Century Military Training Methods

Vance Crowe [00:00:04] As the crow flies on the Vance Crowe podcast, Anna Lorena fga, welcome to the podcast.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:00:13] Hi Vance. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Vance Crowe [00:00:16] So you are in Panama right now and you're a teacher. What in the world do you do?

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:00:24] Actually, I'm a former teacher, so I am in Panama and I moved here about five years ago, so I haven't lived here all my life. I was just born here and then moved when I was 15. And we can talk about that in a moment 'cause I did have an atypical learning experience growing up. But now, you know, after teaching for five years, I, I kind of like left the system. And when was this? Last June. And since then I've been exploring different things in the alternative education space and then coronavirus hit and I was supposed to move to Miami right before Corona. So I'm just waiting for the airports back here in Panama to open up so I can move to Miami and then continue my journey in the alternative education space. So I'm no longer teaching in a school.

Vance Crowe [00:01:06] So I have been a person that believes that education should change radically. And every time that I ever heard somebody talk about how differently they wanted to change education, it was usually they would take the classroom experience and try and pluck it up and drop it online. And it seemed like nonsense to me. And then I came to, I ran into your podcast or whatever it is that you do on Twitter, and I found myself spending probably two or three hours listening to the way that you interacted with the other person that you do this podcast with. And the way you think about education, I think actually has the potential to revolutionize the future. And so I was so delighted when you said you were willing to come on that, I don't even know where to begin. How do you begin to explain to people this, this way you think about online education?

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:01:57] Well, I'm flattered. Thank you. Vance. Maybe, maybe I can walk you through, you know, how I got to this point and, and how I started sharing all this and, and what I've kind of like encountered along the way. So I, like I was saying, I had in a typical learning experience growing up, so I was born in Panama, but my dad worked at a multinational corporation, so we moved around a lot. So, you know, I was born here, but then we moved to Columbia, then Venezuela, India, Mexico, Brazil. And then I came back to Panama when I was 15. And by the time I was 15 I had attended 10 different schools in, you know, seven different countries. So I, I kind of saw how schooling looked in different places and different continents and, you know, around the world. And it was pretty much the same. And obviously I didn't realize this when I was growing up, but now, you know, as I decided to become an educator, I was really passionate about working with kids. I started reflecting on my own experience as a learner and I realized that, you know, it, it didn't matter where I was and how different the culture was and the people and everything. Schooling was pretty much the same. And when I decided to study education, I kind of wanted to do things differently. And I went to NYUI studied childhood education and special education. I did a year of student teaching there. And then I moved to Boston. I taught for a year there in first and third grade while my husband did his MBA. And then we moved back to Panama and that was about five years ago. And then I taught for five years here in a big American school and I taught third and fourth grade. And, you know, that's when I started to really realize that the way that we've been doing things and what I experienced as a kid in all these different schools, it, it hasn't changed much, you know, and it really hasn't changed in the past 120 years.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:03:40] So I started exploring that and you know, like where, where did this whole structure came from? And the moment you start reading the history about education, you start to realize, okay, this is so outdated. This no longer makes sense. No wonder kids are not really learning because it doesn't really matter what you try to do in school, how good of a teacher you are, as long as you're within this structure. There's very little learning happening, there's very little retention in part of the students. So I couldn't help but notice this over and over again and it didn't matter what I did and how much I tried to make it fun and relevant. They were not retaining the information. So it finally got to a point last year when I was like, okay, I no longer wanna teach within this structure and my, you know, my inability to transcend the system. I wanna go out and I still wanna be an educator. I still wanna teach, but I wanna find better ways to do it. And of course there's so many pedagogies out there that I resonate with and I think that are doing things, you know, right. And you know, you have all the Montessori schools and the Waldorf and the Elia and like all these approaches that really put the kid in the center. So I don't think that there's one approach that works. I feel like there are different approaches that work for different kids and I just wanna kind of like explore a different one and, and try out, you know, different experiments to see what works. And when I left school last year, sorry, you wanted to start

Vance Crowe [00:04:55] Something? No, no, go ahead. This is great. You're, you're on fire. Okay. Yeah.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:04:58] I'm just kind of like walking you through to, to explain like how I got here. When I left last year, I, I kind of wanted to see how I could reach more kids. And to be honest, I wasn't really into the whole online learning idea. And the reason why is because like many people I thought it was a very like, passive process and I thought that, you know, what about the social interactions which are so crucial in, you know, when you are helping a kid learn? So I really wasn't really into it. But then I took this course with David Perel, who's now, you know, my business partner and, and he taught writing online. So it was like an online course and I thought that I was just gonna go in there and learn how to write. And for me this was really interesting 'cause I wanted to start putting my thoughts out there. And then it turns out that really what it did was it helped me become what he calls a citizen of the internet. And that's what it started opening my eyes to all the things that you could do in this live online environment. And you said something really relevant at the beginning, which is online education is, is really not grabbing or like trying to recreate schools in the online space that is remote learning. And that is what we are seeing right now with the pandemic. And you know, since teachers have to like quickly migrate to the internet, they're trying to recreate schools online. And that's not online learning. That doesn't work, you know, that is just trying to do what we've been trying to do for the past 120 years in schools but online. And it wasn't working in the brick and mortar schools, of course it's not gonna work online. Like kids are not gonna pay attention to a screen for hours. They are not gonna be engaged to submit assignments, they're not gonna be engaged to interact via, you know, like this forums like that is just not online learning, that's remote learning.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:06:36] So when I saw this other course, the Rite of Passage course that I'm telling you that I took, it was completely different. Like, it was very dynamic. Like we did most of the things, like the instructor who was David was just kind of like imparting a little bit of knowledge and then we all had to interact with each other, share our experiences, produce and get feedback. And I was like, wow, if we are able to flip the model so that it works this way where kids join an online space that is very lively and what they do is actually collaborate and, and talk about the things that they're learning, you know, in their off time and then use that time to actually build things and get feedback, then that model does work and it just, you know, makes things faster. And we waste a lot of time in school, a lot of time that, you know, kids are really not learning for the seven hours that they're there. So I loved how with online education went done, right, it really reduces that downtime and all that wasted time that we have in schools so that kids are in front of a computer for what, an hour, an hour and a half and then that's it. And then the rest of the day they're learning in different ways. So I was really drawn to this model and I wanted to explore it more. And again, I don't think it works for absolutely everyone, but I do feel like it's a more promising approach than traditional education. And you can mix it with other kinds of like homeschooling and micro schools and then other approaches. So that's what I really liked about it and that's how I kind of like started to get into it.

Vance Crowe [00:07:53] I have become fascinated by the education system and in, in my world. So I spend a lot of time with farmers all over the United States and I've gone to places where they've been like, Hey, we just don't wanna send our kids to school anymore. We live in the farmer environment, we want them to be able to, to work on the farm and spend time with us, but when we send them into school, it's just not working out for us. But they didn't have some other option. And if you looked at online classes or the direction of homeschool, it was fitting this pattern that you were describing before of being the old model. What is this old model? How do you describe it? And where did it come from? Because education to me seems like it's the same that it was 20 years ago. And I hear that it's the same that it was a hundred years ago, but I don't know what that means.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:08:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the, so I mean I'm gonna kind of like concise it like the history in, in like, probably like a minute. So I'm gonna miss out a lot of things. But, but the general idea was that, you know, way back in, like in the 18th century, they needed to train younger generations for the military. 'cause there were all these wars between the nations and they needed assembly line workers for the factories. It was the industrial revolution. So in this place called in Prussia, which is, you know, now part of Russia, it's, it, they, they started, they created for the first time the centers where they would bring kids in and they would organize them by age, they would put them in a little environment with one Quadra like instructor leader, which was like the teacher. And they would teach the same thing so that they would come out knowing this, knowing how to follow instructions, how to do things the same way, and then they would be able to transition into the military or into factories. That model proved to work for that specific purpose. So other countries around the world and in the US they started to say, Hey, look at that model, let's go ahead and copy that. So they went to prsa, they got trained in this model, and then that's how it started, you know, to spread around the world, this idea of, you know, unified schooling and compulsory schooling. So I'm just criticizing everything, right?

Vance Crowe [00:09:53] This is great. I didn't know any of

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:09:55] This, this, okay, so, so then that's kind of how it started. And then, but, but if you think about it before that there was obviously a lot of learning going on, but it was very open-ended. And if you go back to like, you know, the schools of Play-Doh, I don't dunno if you say that, that's how you

Vance Crowe [00:10:09] Say it in English. Yeah, please.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:10:10] Yeah. Okay. I'm trying to translate. It was, they were like open environments where people were learning through conversations, through, you know, like thinking and, and working in different, like it was very open-ended or back when, you know, in the farms people would learn through, you know, making and, and watching their parents and or they would learn through stories. So there was a lot of learning and it was a lot more aligned to the natural way that we learned right then when all this happened that we needed assembly line workers in military and kids in the military, it became compulsory and it became mandatory and very, you know, kids had to follow instructions and this and that. And again, it worked back then. But then think about it time, you know, time went by, time went by and we're here. And if you look back, how many industries have changed in the a hundred in the past 120 years, most of the industries have changed because, you know, we are constantly changing in this world and education is one that has not changed. And of course they've added different things to make it more progressive or they've added technology and this and that. But the idea is the same. We still have kids inside a setting for 12 years, for seven hours a day, five days a week, learning with peers their same age, learning the same topics at the same time, at the same pace, and then being tested at the end so that they can enter university for another four years or so. So this model no longer works, right? Like back then we needed assembly line workers and rule followers and people who knew how to follow instructions. Now we need creative thinkers and we need kids who are able to, you know, come up with things and solve problems and who want to keep learning and not necessarily follow instructions.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:11:41] But the problem is that the system is still preparing them for a time that no longer exists and for jobs that no longer exist. And this is really concerning, and yet we continue to do it this way. And to be honest, unfortunately, like I don't think that we're gonna get rid of like traditional schools anytime soon. I do think, especially now with this pandemic, that more and more, you know, alternative approaches are gonna rise and parents are gonna be more aware of these things and hopefully start to, you know, make some adjustments. But the, the schools as such, I don't, I don't think we're gonna get rid of them, especially, you know, for for lower, you know, low, lower economic classes that they cannot afford all this, all these alternative approaches. So, so that's kind of like where, where it comes from and why it's not working.

Vance Crowe [00:12:27] So what, what does a day of a third grader that you're, you're teaching now, what does it look like if they move to a truly online or a virtual experience in education?

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:12:37] So again, the, when when I used to teach in the classroom, we would follow a curriculum and we had like all this parameters and this and that. What I'm trying to do now, I don't know if I told you, but one of the things I'm trying to do with David is we've tried to create an online space and we don't wanna call it a school, but let's say that it's kind of like a virtual school, right? And we're in the process of creating this where kids come and we don't really have subjects and we don't really have grades and we don't believe in this thing. Like you need to be learning with kids the same age. So that's why I cannot tell you like what a third grader would be learning because really it's like right now we're doing it from nine to

Vance Crowe [00:13:11] 12. Oh, you're really breaking the model. Okay, so you're really okay.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:13:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:13:15] Well

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:13:15] Think about it, but here's what I think like when you go out into the real world, you are not just interacting with people your age, right? So it doesn't make sense that for 12 years you are only interacting with people your same age inside a classroom. Like that doesn't really make sense to me. Also, I've seen how well it works when kids are learning with older and younger kids, you know, that dynamic, like the older kids, when they already dominate a topic, they start teaching it to the younger ones and by teaching it they learn more. And the younger ones start learning even more from the older students and from the actual teachers. So having kids different ages, learning at the same time really works. So anyway, that's one of the reasons why we also like to mix things around. But so in terms of like what it looks like, we are trying to do it very differently. So like kids come in and we've created a program where we we're kind of borrowing from this idea of learning through making and project-based approach to, you know, learning and the design thinking process. So kids come in and they, they start to explore their interests and come up with a problem that they feel really passionate about. And it can be anything from, you know, wanting to save street dogs to like wanting to, you know, they're interested in global warming, they're interested in coming up with like alternative for kids not to use so much technology and they can play at home anyway. They come up with different problems that they're curious about and then we help them explore their interest and come up with ideas to create something that solves that problem. And we ran a pilot that lasted a week and it was really interesting 'cause when the kids came in first they were, they were like just staring at me like, okay, what do I do? And I'm like, well actually I, I'm not going to tell you what to do. Like, like you tell me what you are interested in, what you wanna do.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:14:47] And once they come up with a problem, okay, how are you gonna solve this? Like, what do you need to do first? So they are not used to this, right? In school, in a third grade classroom, it looks like the teacher comes and she says, this is what we're learning today. Here's the objective. And you know, at the end, this is what I'm gonna do to assess and to see if you learned here. It's like, okay, so you wanna learn about that or you wanna create this, what do you need in order to be able to create that? Okay, you don't know about this. How can you research about that? Who can you talk to? Okay, you need feedback, I'm gonna pair you up with this kid. And, and it becomes like, it's like we're, we're giving back the, the learning and the, and the power to the kids. And they're so confused at first. They're like, I'm not used to this. But then they start to realize, okay, and they're more engaged and they start to actually conduct and manage their own learning and they end up coming up with things that are incredible in just one week. And, and I did very, very little, we like really take a stance where we step back and we let the kids do the learning and do the teaching. We're just there to facilitate. So it looks very different from what you would see in a classroom, a teacher teaching a group of third graders.

Vance Crowe [00:15:49] The thing you said there that like really deeply speaks to me is you, you let them find a problem that they care about. I, I have always said when, and this is that you're taking it a totally step further than I did, but I've always said when you think you, hey, I need to go to grad school because I'm not making enough money or whatever, people are like, okay, I want to go to school to get another job. And that's the problem that they're solving. And what I've always said is, unless you have a problem that you wanna spend two years focused on, on figuring out how much do I need to learn in order to be able to solve this problem, don't go to graduate school because the problem is what will make you search harder, study deeper, be learning things as opposed to going and hoping somebody's gonna spark your interest and then leading you down a path. And up until you said this right here, I'd never really considered about taking that model and pushing it down as far into the education system as you can.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:16:43] Yeah, well what made me think about that was, I, I I keep seeing over and over again kids leaving 12th grade, you know, and going, they have no idea what they wanna do, like what they wanna study in college. They have no idea what they're passionate about. 'cause in school they rarely ask you like, Hey, you know, v what do you really like? What's something you really enjoy? Let's explore that. What are you curious about? Let's dig into that. Or you know, what, what's something that you feel really passionate about? Like in school, there's no time for that. And it's not no one's fault, it's just because we have to follow a very extensive curriculum and there's so many things that need to be done that that most important thing, which is trying to find out what you're good at and what you like. We don't really have a lot of time for that. So kids, I, I would see over and over again, kids leaving school without a desire to learn because, and this is something that, that I, that I really believe, like kids are are wired to learn. Like when we're born, like we are, we have this natural instinct to learn from everything. And, and you know, we're like sponges. So kids

Vance Crowe [00:17:38] That and bond of mentors to to to bond to people that are doing things that you're like, I wish I knew how to do that. Exactly. And and a big part of that is not even knowing what to admire, but if you stick kids in a room for me, you stick somebody in a room with concrete walls and maybe a couple of windows off to the side, I have nothing to look up to. There's no way to orient myself up. And so you take these kids that are like, I wanna achieve what's the highest achievement I can see? Well, I could be a teacher, I could be a principal, you know, but that's it, right? They don't, they don't, they aren't engaging with other people that could capture their imagination.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:18:12] Absolutely. And the thing is, they're very excited to learn and when they enter this structure, learning suddenly becomes enforced. And they suddenly don't have a saying over the topics, the subjects they wanna learn about, the pace at the at which they wanna learn about suddenly becomes like, it's no longer your learning, it's the school's learning. So kids start to confuse learning with schooling and of course they don't like schooling because it's something again that's enforced and that it's very, they don't see the relevance. So as they get older and older, this desire to keep learning diminishes and diminishes to the point where they graduate and they don't enjoy learning. Most of them, they don't know what they wanna do. They end up going into careers just to see if it works. And then they realize halfway through or when they enter their first job, hey, this is not what I wanted to do. So I was like, oh my gosh, what if we grab kids and we started, you know, having them explore these things and, and build things since they're very, very young and have multiple experience to try things out and, and, and exp and explore what they like. So by the time that they graduate, if they are in school, maybe they, you know, they have, they, they did a conventional path, but they're, they, they know what they wanna do or they're already doing what they wanna do. Which that's something really interesting. I've, I was surprised with what 12 year olds were doing in a week. And I was thinking, wow, if they kept doing this for let's say a year, I wouldn't be surprised if they were building their own companies by the time they're 16. You know what I mean? So if we expose kids, well this is when they're

Vance Crowe [00:19:37] Younger, this is, this is agriculture is is experiencing this, right? So in, when Coronavirus hit, now all of a sudden those kids aren't going to school. So they are spending time with dad and mom out in the farms. And I get photos from my friends, from people that listen to the podcast that are like, Hey look, my kid just learned how to not just turn around the combine, but, you know, change the planter boxes out how to do all this stuff with gears. And, and I think when Coronavirus is done, they're gonna look and say, yeah, my kid was a, was a problem child before, but now he's a great kid. He's, he's learning, he's building stuff. He's sold stuff during the summer at the farmer's market. We're gonna see that there's, I think people that would never have been open to what you're suggesting are gonna be way more open to it now.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:20:23] Absolutely. You know, you just nailed it with, with that comment, I've, I've been having so many people, I send out a weekly newsletter on Fridays and, and I've been having so many people respond since Coronavirus hit saying that they're trying the things that I'm suggesting, which is, you know, make learning at home a lot more, you know, organic and, and you know, like based on their passions and forget about the curriculum and forget about the grades and forget about the tests. Like make it fun and make them create things and do, and, and I've received, I've been receiving so many emails of parents saying, wow, what you just said, like my kid is, I didn't know my kid was this creative. Like the moment that, you know, they're doing all these things, they're exploring their interests, they're building things, they're figuring things out on their own. I see them going on YouTube and learning about these things and then creating videos about it. Like parents are, many parents are surprised with the things that their kids are able to do when they finally have that space. And, and you know, that saying over their learning. And I feel like that is really learning, the learning that's happening in school. I don't consider that to be real learning. What's happening in school is kids are learning how to take a test and how to ace a test and how to pass, you know, go through the motions and pass to the next grade, how to appear like they're paying attention, but they're retaining very little. So to me that doesn't really work. But what you just described that's happening in the farms, what I just told you that parents are telling me that their kids are building and doing and that is really learning and hopefully parents are able to see that now that kids are not in this like, structured environment.

Vance Crowe [00:21:51] My, I I don't, I don't even know how you learn a, I mean I know there are some people that are capable of doing something like learning a language if they're in a classroom and they're studying vocabulary. But I spent, I don't know, three years in high school and two years in college studying Spanish. But it wasn't until I went to work on a paving crew where if I didn't learn how to speak the language of other people, I would be alone. So I had to learn and then all of a sudden my vocabulary explodes and all of a sudden you're figuring out like, hey, that's how those tenses work because I wanted to make friends. And the only way to do that was through that path. That's why immersion language programs are so much more effective than years and years and years of sitting in a classroom.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:22:33] Absolutely. I actually tweeted about this like what, like, like a few days ago, this idea of in school we learn just in case and in real life we learn on demand. And it's exactly what you just said. So in school we learned from a curriculum just in case, you know, with the hopes that someday we're actually gonna use the skills and this knowledge and all the things that our teachers are teaching us. And most of the time we don't end up using most of that stuff. And then in real life, it's exactly what you said, we learn on demand, we learn based on what we need at the moment, what we're interested in learning at the moment or you know, what, what's going on, right? So you learn based on needs and your style and your interest. And that's the kind of learning that I feel like it's valuable when you learn things that you're actually gonna use at the moment or that you're curious about. But that's not what happened, what's happening in schools. And every time I ask this question to people, I'm like, well how much do you remember from school? Like, like actually like, like I'm not talking about your like your friendships and your kind no, like actual things that your teachers taught you or that you learned from a textbook. Like how much do you recall? Most people don't recall a thing, you know, very, very, very little because it's just so disconnected from what we do in our day to day. And again, it's teaching just in case like that kind of teaching like

Vance Crowe [00:23:46] That he doesn't even get stored. I love That's ex that's exactly right. And so to be fair though, I would, I would wonder then how do you make sure your kids have the fundamental skills to do things like reading or,

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:23:58] Or

Vance Crowe [00:23:58] The basic mathematics and basic geometry so that way they know there is a path there that they could take. How do you ensure that happens?

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:24:05] Absolutely. So, so, so that's a really interesting question. Definitely kids need to learn how to read, how to write and basic math skills, but there's plenty of research that shows that this three things can be taught in less than a hundred hours and they can actually be self-taught within the right environment, with the right resources and support. Now I haven't seen it like, you know, a kid being self-taught this, but I do know of examples like for example, like Naval, I don't know if you know of Naval?

Vance Crowe [00:24:33] Oh yeah, Naval ko. Yeah, yeah.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:24:34] So yeah, so I, I, I'm a big fan of his work and one of the things that he says that really like resonates with my views is that he learned how to read just by when he was very, very young, just by having a bunch of books around him. And at first, like his mom or his teacher that like, they wouldn't tell him like, you need to read this, you need to read that. They would just let him read whatever he wanted. And he started reading things that he calls like junk food. Like he started reading like comics and like magazines and things that maybe, you know, an adult or a teacher would see would see it. And they would be like, no, like you're not learning from that. But he was learning the habit of reading and he was getting in love, you know, he was falling in love with with reading, which is really what we want. And once you start reading for pleasure, then you, you automatically make that transition to reading things that are like the healthy foods and the things that are really like teaching you things, right? So schools instead of forcing kids, you know, definitely like one thing that we need to teach is how to read. And then that teaches you like through reading, it's connected with writing, but it starts with like, like falling in love with reading and building that habit. And then you start to build up into all those like other skills. So definitely reading and writing is something that you need to teach and, but the thing is, it can be taught by a parent, it can be taught by a kid, you know, being exposed to reading and you don't need to be in a classroom for seven hours a day, five days a week for 12 years to learn how to do that. And then math is more of a tricky one because you know, you can, I mean now with videos like Can Academy, like they're for free and they do a really good job explaining all these things that a teacher explains in hours. Like you can just boop go in and see specifically what you wanna learn.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:26:06] But also what I say to parents that, that ask me about this, they're like, okay, I can manage the reading and the writing at home. What about the math? Well, you can compliment nowadays with all these amazing programs online. Like for example, there's out school, I don't know if you've heard of them. No,

Vance Crowe [00:26:18] But

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:26:18] It's like a market share of like different classes and they're really cool, they're like engaged, they're like aligned with kids' interests and they have like all these random topics, but they teach you how to read, they teach you math, they teach you everything from, I think it's three years old all the way to like 18 years old I think. But anyway, so you can compliment for this, this, you know, things that have become a little bit more challenging to teach the kids, right? With these alternative things. But you don't, don't need to learn all the other stuff the way they teach you in school, like science and social studies, like all those things. You can learn them today in a much more interesting way. And with the internet, like totally different. Like we don't need to be in that environment.

Vance Crowe [00:26:55] So what do you imagine the, the, the life of, of people, a family that decides they want to engage in this style of education, what does their life look like? You know, what does a regular day look like if they're trying to raise their children in the system?

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:27:11] Right. So I think this work, like the idea that I'm kind of like inclined to is this, it's a mix of like homeschooling and I don't know if you've heard of micro schools. I, I'm a big fan of micro schools. So micro schools are basically like homeschooling, but you, you grab a group of kids, let's say like five, six kids from the neighborhood or from around,

Vance Crowe [00:27:29] I didn't know there was a word for this. I've been advocating for this for years.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:27:33] I, I think it works wonderfully. And there are many, many different like companies that are doing this. So I'll, and I'll share some examples, but basically they either grab an educator, let's say me or a parent that that has the time and the devotion to actually teach a group of kids. And then they would meet just like they would meet in school, you know, every day, but not for seven hours. They would do it like, for what, for a few hours a day. They would be in a cozy environment in a nurturing home of one of their friends and they would be learning different things. And the, the curriculums tend to be around the interest of the kid. And you know, you have companies like Wonder Schools, which they, they, they provide these environments, they facilitate, you know, the advisor and they help the parents set it up and they make sure that the environment is set up correctly. They try to help you. What I also really like is that they see the people in your neighborhood, oh you have a Hispanic community, okay, let's make the curriculum, let's add Spanish to the curriculum and things like that. So it's really around the needs and of, of the kids. And that way the kid is not alone, it's with the little group. So anyway, that's micro schools and then there's actually regular homeschooling which is taking off now, especially because so many parents are actually starting to work remotely and for parents that work remotely, homeschooling really works now because there are companies like, I dunno if you've heard of Primer, but they are, you know, they're, they just started and they're making it super simple for parents to, well I wouldn't say super simple 'cause homeschooling is never gonna be super simple, but it's, it's, it's a lot more doable to teach your kid at home with all the resources that, for example, primer provides. And

Vance Crowe [00:28:54] Because you're not creating it from zero, you're not, you're not happy to write it

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:28:57] Yourself. They're not creating it. Right? Right. And, and you can pick and choose what resonates with your child where you wanna take this. So, so it's becoming a lot easier. And then also when parents are like, well I can't homeschool my kid, I have to work and, and my husband has to work like this wouldn't work. But here's the thing, if you are at home and you're working from home, it's a myth that you need to teach your kid for seven hours. Like again, the schools work almost like a childcare surveys, right? Where kids are just there for all that time. But really when the kids are home, you like the amount, and I've spoken to a lot of homeschoolers, the amount of time that you teach your kid of direct instruction is maximum an hour and a half, maximum two hours. So if you're able to allocate that time to direct teaching, the rest of the time your kid is building things and doing things and learning in other ways on their own so you can continue to do your work and your things and on all these things. So it's becoming more flexible. The problem is that people need to be okay with this idea that learning doesn't have to happen for seven hours and that there doesn't have to be a test and that there doesn't have to be, be homework and all these things in order for learning to happen. You know what I

Vance Crowe [00:30:00] Mean? I think coronavirus might have been the best thing that ever happened to your philosophy here because yeah, I think there were a lot of parents that thought I could never homeschool my kids and now they've gotta look at it and say, man, I really wish I had a couple more hours back in my day. But I think my children are succeeding in ways that they had not succeeded before.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:30:18] Yeah. I mean, yes. And then there's also this big group of parents that are like, I hate this. Like I can't do this. This is horrible. But then again, because that's not the online learning homeschooling that, you know, they say like, I don't like homeschooling. This is horrible. But they're not doing homeschooling right now and they're also not doing online learning again, they're doing remote learning, you know, all this poor parents. I'm just thinking this is crazy that the teachers sent them the schedule and like all these things that the kids have to do and like the kid has to be in front of the computer for so many hours and obviously they're frustrated, the parents are frustrated, the teachers are overworked. Like that whole thing is not homeschooling. Like that's just trying to recreate schools at home. So for

Vance Crowe [00:30:54] Who hate it. Yeah. They had PE teachers being like, do 15 jumping jacks and now like, and it was like, there's thousands of ways to get kids to move and none of them include like, now stand there now do your 15 jumping jacks and now we're gonna jump up in the air 10 times. Like that actually strips out every ounce of fun and excitement out of that. I was about to say,

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:31:15] I was about to say like, like let's come up with another way to suck the fun out of now moving, you know, like, it's crazy.

Vance Crowe [00:31:21] So, okay, so you are filled with energy, right? What were you like as a kid? What were you, what kind of student were you?

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:31:29] So I've also had to reflect about this now that I'm doing all this, right? So it's very interesting 'cause I grew up thinking that I was not a creative kid and that I was very problematic because I, again, I, as you can tell, I have lots of energy and I love to talk and, and I've realized that the way that I think and the way that I'm creative is by talking and by moving two things that ironically you can't really do in school. And it blows my mind how, you know, that's how, and, and just think about how, how, how, you know, kids, the nature of a kid is to talk, to move, to socialize, to ask a thousand questions and all these things are frowned upon in school, right? That kid that asks too many questions, it's like the teacher automatically is like that kid that wants to move. It's like, okay, that kid has a DHD the kid that can't stop talking. You're like, okay parents, like, what's wrong with your your child? And that was me. Like I would constantly get notes, you know, my parents would always get notes saying like, we don't know where to sit her

Vance Crowe [00:32:26] Anymore. Like she talks to

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:32:28] Herself like da da da. And it was like, this is the way that I process things. So it was, it was really hard for me. It was really hard for me. And I, you know, yeah, I was, I was a headache. It's so funny 'cause when I talked to my, my Panama teachers from high school, they're like, we can't believe you're an educator. You made our lives miserable 'cause you wouldn't stop talking. So anyway, and it, it, but I, I did well in school. Yeah, sorry, you were gonna say.

Vance Crowe [00:32:49] Well, I mean, I, I was gonna say the same thing. Like, I, I was a straight up like B student and it wasn't because like my intelligence level wasn't capable. It was that I had a thousand other things that I wanted to do. And once I got outta school and I found mentors, my whole life was changed because I just started attaching. I would find somebody that I admired, nobody taught me to do this. It's just an innate human response. I'd grab onto 'em, I'd follow 'em around, I'd see what they were doing that made them respected or respectable and then I'd mimic it. And like in school, there is nothing to mimic other than the teacher. And I had teachers that I love, that I still stay in touch with today, but they were stuck in a concrete block. You, they, they can't be inspirational in that way.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:33:33] Okay, so you, you just touched upon two things that I, that I wanna talk about. One is, that's exactly right. The role of the educator has changed now. So before the role of the teacher was to kind of like impart knowledge, right? And make sure that you were learning and, and you know, she's the founder of wisdom or he's the found of wisdom and, and you just have to absorb everything. Now really the role of the educator is to be an you. You can't force learning. That's something that I've learned from my studies, from, you know, seeing kids and trying everything. Like you cannot force a kid to learn. You just can't. What you can do is inspire them to learn on their own. So the role of the teacher now is to serve as a, you know, to inspire the kids and to make it entertaining and to make it, you know, to make, like you were saying, become a mentor. And, and for kids to say, wow, I really wanna learn about that. That looks really interesting. You know, she or he cares about what I care about. Let me, let me dig into this. So, so the role has really changed from imparting knowledge to really being inspira a source of inspiration and then also providing the resources, the space and the time for kids to explore and make mistakes and you guide them. So that's really now the role of the teacher. And that is something that we don't see a lot in schools, but it's really, really effective. Like it really works. So, because like you said, that's the way that kids learn, that's the way that we adults learn. Like when you have a, you, you know, you're inspired when by someone and once you're inspired or once you get obsessed over something, you don't stop doing it. You keep coming back for more, right? And that's what learning should be. It should be something that makes you want to come out the next day and keep doing it on your own, right?

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:35:07] So, absolutely. Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:35:09] And, and adults don't need that, right? When an adult finds like, Hey, I, I need to find a way outta the job I'm in, I'm gonna go start a business, right? You have to figure out those problems. And the people that you can tell are the most successful out in the regular world are the ones that don't wait for someone to tell them what to do or what success is. They look around and say, I see a problem and now I'm gonna go run around and and try and figure this out.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:35:34] Absolutely. Because schools, what they're doing is they're conditioning kids to ask, you know, to only work with instructions. So it's so interesting how you, you see kids in, in the classroom and you ask a question and they'll just, they they, they'll stay quiet because they know that eventually you'll give in and eventually you'll tell them the answer or you, you give them an open or

Vance Crowe [00:35:52] The little blonde girl in front that's like, oh, please pick me please.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:35:57] That's too funny. Absolutely. But they're so used to following instructions, they don't know what to do when you don't give them instructions. And that's one of the things that we're trying to do in this creative online school that I'm telling you that I'm doing with David is like, what can kids do when you don't give them instructions? And again, at first they're confused 'cause they're used to this. But I, but after a few days, they start coming up with things that they would have never come up if we had given them, you know, the parameters, the rubric telling them like, this is your final product. What we need is to remove those instructions and let them work on their creative and thinking skills. Right? And, and they need more of this experiences earlier in their, you know, childhood years. So that by the time they are interns and they come to you, for example, they are, you know, looking for problems, looking for how to solve them on, you know, understanding this process and knowing that, for example, in order to create something, it's okay to fail. You need to fail in the process in order to learn. And, and you don't get discouraged by it. You keep going in school, they don't encourage this kind of behaviors that lead you to being creative, right? Like mistakes are, are, are frowned upon. Like, you know, you, you, you, you may you fail and it's like, oh my gosh, I failed. This is horrible. But really,

Vance Crowe [00:37:05] And you fail in front of other people and there's a price to be paid. So I remember when I was in high school, I had a, I had a friend named Whitney and everybody knew Whitney was the smartest girl in our grade. And I, you know, she was awesome. She took a college level calculus class. So like she, she strove for something higher and she lost her perfect GPA. So the other kids that didn't take nearly as hard a classes but got to do that, then they got to be as the valedictorian. And Whitney didn't. And the lesson for all of us kids was like, don't take any chances. Like if you really wanna achieve, don't go take calculus, go take, you know, basic geometry. 'cause you can still be valedictorian and the world doesn't work that way. No, only school does

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:37:46] It. It's, that is such a dangerous, you know, thinking. And when you ask me like, how did you do in school? Well I, I I, what I did was I figured, I figured it out like most kids, like I figured out, you know, what I need to do in order to pass. It's not like I was learning clearly because I don't remember anything. I, I just learned how to play the game of school. I learned what I had to do in order to pass and what I didn't have to do, like take those calculus asse so that I could, you know, be valedictorian or keep going. So we don't want kids figuring out the system and, and pretending and faking learning in order to get to that finish line. Like that doesn't make any sense. That's a waste of, of your entire childhood. Like, we want kids who are, you know, learning because they understand what to the places that you can get if you're constantly learning and creating things. We want kids to like fail in the process and, and, you know, know correct themselves and learn more and, and just keep, keep learning and, and, and that's just not what's happening within this other structure.

Vance Crowe [00:38:42] When I was in high school, I, so I grew up in this very unusual small town. In, in the United States, schools are paid for by your property taxes. So if you happen to live in a really valuable farming area where the property taxes are really high, you know, the, the amount of value of that land is really high. You can have some really good schools. And ours, we did this really cool project. So you were saying like, what do you remember from school? You're right, like most of middle school and grade school, I remember the teachers, but not the lessons. But when we started learning about like John Locke and the Constitution, we did a thing called the survival encounter where they packed everybody up in a bus and they drove you out to a country area and you had to spend the night trying to figure out how are we gonna start a community? So you had to build your own shelter, you had to have your own water, you had to learn how to start fires. And I was a boy scout, so I brought nothing and I just traded, I'll light your fire for water. Okay, now I'll do this for, for this other thing. And for me, this is like cocaine, right? Like, it was like Problems everywhere. But I hadn't thought about how formative of an experience that was until you're bringing this up. And I don't fault schools for not being able to do that. You're not gonna be able to go into Baltimore and do this. You're not gonna be able to go into Peoria and do this. So if you are creating a system where we can maximize problem solving for kids, what can I do to help? Like how can I help you spread this out to more people?

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:40:03] Right, right. Well the example that you just gave me is it's, that is experiential learning. That's the kind of learning that you remember and that's the kind of learning that's valuable. Like you are actually having to use what you've learned and apply it in order to survive or in order to create something in the real world. Like learning has to be more, you know, about the real world, about what's going on. And that happens outside of the classroom, not inside of the classroom. So with all these things like homeschooling and this and online learning and this and that, the whole point is to reduce the amount of time that kids are stuck in these places so that they have more time during the day to do this kind of things and go to this kind of places. You know, like that's the kind of learning that's really valuable and that's gonna help you. So I, I just think that if we are able to, to, to see this and to understand that that's the kind of things that kids remember, then I feel like parents would want to, and, and, and educators would want to create more of these experiences. And it's a, it's way more simple than, than we think. It's, you know, it's, it's following the kids' intuitions and watching them.

Vance Crowe [00:41:04] You, you're in the situation where right now, this week, last week and probably this next week coming up, all of these families are receiving packets and they're anywhere from seven to 70 pages long and they're the school saying, we're gonna try and bring your kids back and we're gonna do every other day or in the morning and then, and not at night. And like they're coming up with all these like, crazy plans to be able to fulfill social distancing. And I think there are gonna be a huge number of parents that just say, I'm not, I'm not gonna do this. I don't wanna do a patchwork of like part school part, whatever. So if parents that are saying, Hey, I'm finally open to doing something new, how would they enter into the world that you're talking about here?

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:41:44] Well, there, there, the good thing is, I mean, I don't know if I, I keep coming across this things because I am like, I live and breathe this topic, but I've been seeing some really cool like programs and startups and teachers and educators and even parents that are realizing like, okay, we, it's time to do something different. And they're coming up with programs that are online and they're based on the interest of the kid and they're teaching kids like things that are actually valuable nowadays, like coding or like how, you know, entrepreneurial schools for kids and things like that. I feel like parents, you know, a quick search on Google will bring up like all these different startups that are coming about with this new experiences for kids. So if, if I were a parent right now and you wanted to do something different, I would look and see which one resonates the most with your kid and then enroll your kid in this experience and see how it plays off and, and go in with the mentality of how am I gonna know if my kid is learning? Because many parents are like, well I know my kid is learning if I see that a in the test. But we've already talked about how that means nothing. Like you can have an a in a test, you know, a is a test and learned nothing at all, which is usually what happens in school. You just figure out how to take the test and how to nail the test. So how do you know if your kid is learning in this, like alternative experiences? Well, if the kid is excited, if the kid wants to come back the next day for more, if the kid is talking about this at home, if you see the kid when the class ends, like working on it or try to figure things out like your kid is learning, is it simple as that? Like you don't need to be concerned. Like, oh, they're falling behind, they're falling behind on what? Like on what? I'm just confused when people say that like, oh my gosh, my kid hasn't been in school, they're falling behind.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:43:16] I'm like, in what? Like they're not learning anything in school, like anything valuable, like use this time productively. So it's just a matter of being more open to seeing these experiences as, you know, different, being more flexible and try to see that there's so much learning going on, on, on these different things. Right.

Vance Crowe [00:43:33] So you have this very global perspective, you lived all over the world. What are you paying attention to right now? You're trying to get back into the United States, you're living on the coast of Panama, but you have this global worldview. So what, what are you, what do you pay attention to right now?

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:43:49] So, so I, we've been trying to move to Miami for a while because of my husband's job, but the visa took a little bit of longer than expected. And finally when I got my visa, the pandemic started. So airports are closed here in Panama. We haven't been able to move. Once that opens, we are planning to move back to the states and then, I mean, I don't really know what's gonna happen now, you know, if we're gonna be able to travel if not, but, but I mean that's why I'm so interested in the online world. So really what I'm trying to do now is I'm really interested in this whole idea of using the internet to learn. And, and that's my main focus right now. How to create, you know, a, a rich learning experience for kids that they are empowered where they are creating things, putting them out there using the internet to share and to connect with peers around the world. And you know, like it's just, I want for kids to become citizens of the internet and use it productively. So that's really my focus right now.

Vance Crowe [00:44:42] Do you have a VR headset,

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:44:45] A

Vance Crowe [00:44:45] Virtual reality headset?

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:44:47] No, I do not. I do not. Have

Vance Crowe [00:44:48] You used one yet?

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:44:49] Yes, I have. My dad has like, he has an educational consulting company and he actually has some of those. Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:44:55] So I, I think the one thing if I were going to like, if there's anything I can offer you as like an insight, the craziest thing about VR is that it gives you a sense of sound proximity. So you know how if we're on a Zoom call and there's 10 people on, whoever turns their microphone on is all at the same volume. Whereas if you're in a classroom, the teacher has the floor, she has a louder voice, but kids can whisper to each other if they're right next to each other. That sound proximity based on where you are in the virtual space changes how you view online because it gives you back this proprioception, the ability to know where you fit in that space. And I think when somebody figures out the audio component of education to make it, so if I'm sitting on one side of a classroom and somebody sitting on the other side, they have to yell to get my attention. It, it will make it so something that's deeply embedded in our brains will be more connected with the online space.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:45:53] Oh, that, that would be incredible. 'cause I really feel like, you know, online education is taking off regardless of, you know, everything that's going on and, and all this improvements are just gonna make it even more like the real experience, right? So we finally have the chance to do it right in the online space and then hopefully with all these things that wow, that that sounds incredible. You know,

Vance Crowe [00:46:13] And I'm totally in agreement that it's not the, the wrong way to do it is to be like, okay, make sure your child has a desk that they can sit at and now they're gonna be in a VR headset where they're sitting in a concrete room where there's a teacher at the front and they're just in that, that that's not the way to do it. The way to do it is to teleport them into some other place where they can do exactly what you're talking about, exploring

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:46:33] Problems. Right? Right. In in, in our, in our virtual camp that we did, the kids are actually at a desk. They have their computer and we can all see each other, but they're all building things. Like they have all their making materials around them and they're all working. We have music, we put them into breakout groups. We're doing the, the, the chat is super lively, but they're all creating things, but we're looking at each other. So it's different, you know, like, like you, you're building something, but we are here like we, so it feels kind of like we are together, even though we're not, it's not like I'm here watching you and listening to a teacher. So yeah, it's about, you know, thinking how to make it more engaging and more, more like the real experience.

Vance Crowe [00:47:09] So tell me about your, your co-part, David. He is a really cool guy. I was listening to him talk about why Combinator and yeah, just having very different perspectives. But you two have, I think, a really great dynamic. You do these show and tell things. It, it's

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:47:26] Very

Vance Crowe [00:47:26] Interesting way that you two work together.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:47:28] Yeah. Together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Abso well, I, I, he, he's a person that I admire a lot and he, he's very young and he has, he's very curious and, and driven. And because of that, he has just built this whole like empire around, you know, online education and, and he's very, he's very good at like voicing his opinion and helping people become citizens of the internet. And he was the one who really got me into this whole thing. And as I was talking to him when I first started taking his course, we realized that we shared the same vision of education. And he came from a similar background. Like he had, he had a similar experience as I, as I did growing up where he, you know, also was a very creative and curious kid, but he didn't think of himself that way because of, you know, teachers would tell you otherwise. And he didn't do that well in school because of the whole structure. But then when he finally was able to liberate himself out of this, he is the most creative person I know, like, hands down. And he has been able to accomplish all these things just, you know, at 25. And that just really inspires me. And I love working with people like that, with people that, that are creative, that inspire me, that push me. And we are very similar in that way. So he, even though he has no experience, like working directly with kids, he does have a very, you know, very similar vision to me. So we decided to partner and create this, explore like this childhood education space and what the future of childhood education looks like. And we're open to trying different things and we love to bounce off ideas. We started this show and tell just to kind of like share the conversations that we are already having, but we're now doing them, you know, so that other people can listen to them.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:48:59] People like it, they like our dynamic and, and we just have so many ideas of things that we want to do. And it's just very exciting. So we'll see where this takes us.

Vance Crowe [00:49:08] I think the thing that I like about it is it would be very easy for two people to get together and be like, the education system isn't fair. We have a better way. And then just kind of complain about it. But you guys are sitting there with so much energy and enthusiasm. I don't have any kids in school. Like I, my wife's gonna have a daughter here in a little, in a couple of months, but we're a long way from education. And so I, but I find your conversation to be one where it's like, if you found two teachers that were in the back of a bar drinking, being like, you know what? I think we can make a break for it. I think if we do these things, we can liberate our kids and we can get 'em outta here. And so you're like, wow, what, what an insightful conversation that normally you wouldn't get to see.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:49:50] Oh, I love, I love to hear that. 'cause that's exactly what we're trying to do with that show. And, and that's what we've realized. Like people from, like, we have like younger people listening to us, we have older people listening to us, we have parents listening to us, we have people that don't have kids listening to us. And I think it's because we're talking about, you know, topics that really interest everyone. Like we all care about education and we've all been involved in education, you know, one way or another. You know, we've all been kids, we've all been through some form of schooling. We will, you know, many of us will have kids and, and, and we, these are things that we need to talk about. And, and again, not in a way like, oh, this is wrong and this is what we have to do. No, let's just talk about it casually. Let's talk about what's working. Let's talk about what's not working. And what I like about what we are doing is that we don't have this one approach that we're advocating for. And we're saying like, this is what works. Let's, let's, you know, brainwash everyone with our approach. No, we are pulling from the things that we see that work and then adding our flare and then trying things out and seeing what works. And, and I feel like that's the approach that we should have, right? Like there's not one approach that works for everyone. So we should just be exploring and testing things and seeing what resonates with the kids. Not what the test tells us or what the grades, no, what are, how are the kids reacting? Does it look like they're learning? Are they excited? Are they creating things that are valuable? Are they sharing their creations? Do we see them motivated to keep learning? Then we're doing things right. And I think that that's where we're trying to go with this.

Vance Crowe [00:51:11] So if, if people wanted to follow you to learn more about what you're doing and how to think about it or ask you questions about what they can do, how would they go about doing that?

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:51:20] Yeah, so they can visit my website. It's anna lorena fga.com and there they can subscribe to my newsletter. I send a newsletter every Friday called FA Fridays where I just share my views about childhood educ. It's

Vance Crowe [00:51:32] Pretty good. I like it. I must have read like seven or eight of them yesterday. It's

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:51:34] Good. Oh, I'm very excited. I'm very excited to hear that. So yeah, I just share, you know, what the experts are saying, but I digested in ways that people can resonate with. I post lots of questions 'cause I think that that's really helpful for when people, you know, if I'm able to kind of like make you think about education in a new way even for a second, then I feel successful. So that's one way I recently started a YouTube channel. I am in the early stages trying to figure out this platform. So you can follow me on YouTube at Anna Lorena fga. I'm very active on Twitter, so Anna FGA 11 is my handle. And I also have an Instagram Miss Fab's learning lab that I'm starting. So, so you can really follow me in all these different platforms.

Vance Crowe [00:52:13] You've been busy while you're waiting for that visa, you're not no waiting around for you.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:52:18] Absolutely. Absolutely.

Vance Crowe [00:52:19] Well, Anna Lorena from Bigga, it has been a wonderful time to have you on and I actually would love to, to have you or David or both of you guys on another time let's, I think, I think a couple of weeks into the fall North America is going to have a, have an awakening. Like, hey, things changed since we left and we tried to restart school. And I, I think it'll be a good conversation to have with, with you guys in a couple of months.

Ana Lorena Fabrega [00:52:43] Absolutely. Vince, this has been wonderful and I will talk to him 'cause I think that would be a great idea.

Vance Crowe [00:52:48] Great, thanks.