Amish Farmer Explains How His Community Rejected COVID Rules and Built Bitcoin Skepticism

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:00:00] I sat down a decade ago and looked at what is the landscape from a macro global perspective of where is agriculture, where are we going, where do we need to go to create the better world that we all know is possible? And I set my, my personal mission and my personal passion is to have region regenerative agriculture become the status quo, mainstream, global standard by 2040. I'm Chris Haworth, a grain originator and accountant living in Pocahontas, Iowa, and you are listening to the Vance Crow podcast.

Vance Crowe [00:00:30] Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here today. John Kemp returns the Amish regenerative farmer that talks about economics and his view on patents. And really one of the best conversations I have had in a very long time agreed to come back on the podcast. So we're gonna get to that interview in just a moment. But I wanted to have a couple of updates. So I right now will be in Canada. As you are hearing this interview, I was invited to Lloydminster, where this is the one of the coolest cities in all of Canada. It sits directly on the border between Saskatchewan and Alberta. And these people are out in the tundra, out on the Cold Plains, and they're figuring out how to raise crops and having lived in that culture for several generations. And one of the reasons I love going there is because the stories are so rich with families that have figured out how to overcome incredible obstacles, to be able to not only survive the harsh winters and the terrible conditions, but really thrive and have culture. So while I'm up there, I'm trying to do some Legacy Interviews and I'm even invited to give a talk on the importance and value of telling your stories. So I'm pretty excited about that. If you are interested in having me sit down to record your family stories so that future generations know where your family came from, what it took to get where you are and the values that you wanna make sure are transmitted, go to Legacy Interviews dot com to find out more.

Vance Crowe [00:02:01] Alright, without further ado, let's head to the interview with my new friend, John Kemp. John Kemp, welcome to the podcast.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:02:10] Glad to be here events. And that was an awesome introduction. A new friend. You know, I think many times I, I speak at conferences and given the, being a podcast host and teaching a lot of webinars, a lot of people know me when I don't know them. And I always try to approach those conversations from the perspective of, these are just new friends that I haven't met yet. So it great, it's great to hear that framing.

Vance Crowe [00:02:32] Yeah. You know, it's, I have to say a little bit flattering that you were willing to accept the interview to come back on. You were a wildly popular guest and I was so excited to do another one 'cause we had so much more to talk about. But I, I actually like, was humbled that you were like, yeah, not only can I get on, but let's rearrange some schedules and make it happen. Why did you accept this again? Well,

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:02:53] It's, it's a ton of fun to meet someone like you. You and I never spoke before. We hit the record button on, on the last episode. And, and to feel that level of rapport and connection that we, we share so much in common in terms of our values and the way that we think it was, it was a really fun conversation. And so of course everyone wants to have fun in their life. Why wouldn't you do that again?

Vance Crowe [00:03:17] Well, I agree and I've spent a lot of time thinking about what are good questions that I can ask, because I think one of the things that we share is an interest in, in things that are beyond us, things are outside of us, and really our two cultures where we come from while we live in the same country at the exact same time, we come from different cultures and I think there's a lot to explore and learn from. So I wanna jump right in and ask about a clash of cultural ideas. What are your thoughts on Bitcoin?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:03:49] Alright, let's go all the way to the

Vance Crowe [00:03:50] End of the spectrum from the get

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:03:52] Go. Well, I think I, I read one of the first books that was published on Bitcoin, studied it quite extensively when it came out. And yeah, I know that might sound odd for an Amish person, but if I haven't, if I haven't carved out my niche as being an odd Amish person yet, I'm not sure what's going to establish that.

Vance Crowe [00:04:12] So

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:04:14] Obviously

Vance Crowe [00:04:14] I'm, I'm

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:04:15] Very intrigued by the idea of a, a for lack of a better term, an uncontrollable cur currency or a, a currency that is not regulated by governments. So I, I'm very intrigued and impressed by that idea, but I've always had this kind of intuitive instinctive of idea that the idea behind Bitcoin is awesome, but this, this, this isn't quite it just yet. And with some of the new information that has come out in the, over the last couple of months about it being connected with the NSA and, and all the stuff that's behind it. And also just, I think part of the discomfort that I had with it was its tremendous energy drain and the amount of energy that it consumes. It's, it's designed by default to consume a lot of energy rather than to consume a minimal amount of energy. And so I've had some reservations around that. So I guess in short, I'm really intrigued by the possibilities of the idea, the philosophy behind it. But I would hope for a future where a next generation comes along and that is perhaps addresses some of the shortfalls of Bitcoin and is a better version.

Vance Crowe [00:05:22] I've never heard anybody talk about this new information that's coming out about the NSA, what have you heard?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:05:28] Goodness, I read so much stuff and skim so much stuff that it didn't, and Bitcoin is not a primary interest of mine, so it barely registered. But I was reading a couple of headlines and, and some, some interactions where they were very clearly describing that the, the origin code of Bitcoin and the folks who were really behind it were really at the NSA. And now, now that you're saying you don't know anything about it, and I'm assuming you're much better informed than I, I'm wondering whether that was actually true or not. But I think it merits further digging.

Vance Crowe [00:05:57] Yeah, I think one of the interesting things about whoever created that code is it the cat is outta the bag, the code is open source, so anybody can go read it all. And there's nobody that like says, well, because I wrote it first, I get to go make changes and I can change the core protocol because the protocol is actually run by the miners. And if you don't mind me, like pushing back a little bit on, on some of your thoughts here, one of the things I think is interesting and, and it's funny I'm talking with an Amish guy about this, is that energy use, you know, it does in fact take quite a bit of consumption of energy, but I think that there's some possibilities with this consumption that most people have never considered. So for example, there is all sorts of energy that we just flare off or we waste in our, in our society all over the world. So you have hydroelectric power that because these company or these countries are highly mountainous, they have all this potential energy, but there's nobody to use it. And so as, as the water falls down the, the, the mountainside, if you're not capturing that energy, it's just wasted. So they're able to capture that and turn it into something usable and then ultimately sell the generation of that energy into the market as like a digitization of energy. And maybe a more clear example would be if you're up in Alberta and you've got to flare off all the natural gas in order to get down to the oil, instead of flaring that off and burning that methane, you could actually just plug a generator into it. That energy was gonna be burned off anyways, and now you're generating energy and that energy is being added to the larger grid that's used to mine Bitcoin.

Vance Crowe [00:07:33] So in a way it is preserving energy or capturing it in a, that would otherwise just be lost as entropy.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:07:41] While I understand what you're describing, van, so I would, I would ask the question, can that energy be better utilized in other ways? And also if, if this energy is going to waste currently with current Bitcoin mining, I guess what you're describing is, sounds to me like a possible vision of the future that doesn't exist yet. And I'm wondering if it doesn't exist yet, why not? Are, is there a, a lack of motivation from stakeholders in the ecosystem to really implement and execute on that? And so obviously we all need to strive and work forward to a better world and create the better world that we all know is possible. So there's, there's lots of golden opportunities that haven't been developed yet, but I I always like to ask the question, why not, why haven't they been developed yet?

Vance Crowe [00:08:31] Well, I think it actually has, I mean, people are doing this right now. I have a good friend Steve Barber, I don't know that I can call him a good friend. He's somebody I really admire and I look up to and he is building the generators that I'm talking about that aren't just in Alberta. They're, they're all over the US and other parts of the world and the energy generation I think, I think it is happening, it's creating more resilient power sources in places like Texas. And then, so I think it is being built and I think one of the things that makes it really important to me to see this vision built is right now the government, when they turn on the printing press, what they're stealing is the people's time, right? Money actually marks your time put towards valuable efforts. You could have put your time or an attention towards anything, you put it towards something that generated value for other people. So they wanted to give you something in exchange for that value. And right now the government at any time and in hundreds of different ways can turn on the printing press and create more money, which in effect just reaches into everybody's store of value and sucks value out of it. And so even if there are parts of Bitcoin that somebody might find questionable, I would say the fact that the supply is limited to 21 million allows you to preserve and protect people's value that they've put into to creating things for other people and, and not allowing governments to steal it from us.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:09:58] Yeah. With and in terms of monetary policy and the need for reform monetary policy of what you're describing, I completely agree with you as, as I understand it, and obviously as it relates to Bitcoin and energy, we've just demonstrated that I'm not well enough informed to have a qualified opinion. So there's no point in me having a conversation about that until I learn more. Well,

Vance Crowe [00:10:17] So this actually brings me to what is your system of money? You, you use the US dollar, do you use the US dollar among other Amish people? How does it work in your community? It

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:10:26] Is no different from society at large, with the exception that there is still a much stronger barter in treating culture present than has, than is true of society at large. So that, that remains in, in varying degrees. But it, it's, you know, a strong barter and trade culture within a community is enough to make a substantial difference. One

Vance Crowe [00:10:49] Of the things that we lost as we, as we made money more and more a part of our everyday lives that it was a part of every transaction is that it takes away from high trust communities. You know, like I think that in cities you have this like really rapid movement of ideas and people can be interchanged, but you end up becoming a cog if if you don't fill that restaurant chair or if you don't fill that job in that business, you can be replaced. But in much lower density areas, Amish communities, farming communities, these are high trust. You have to see people day in and day out and you're not interchangeable and bartering and trading, I think really facilitates that high trust society.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:11:28] Well there's, as, as I was listening to you and just thinking about the answer that I gave a moment ago and thinking about the reality that I get to experience every day, I realized that there's another level of trust that's higher than bartering and trading. And that is, I've heard some people refer to it as a gifting economy, but the reality is it's not just trade and barter there, there's also, if, if I have, if I'm processing a beef or a hog, there, there is the kind of the cultural expectation that you will gift to the people in your family and your friends, the people that come help you process an animal, whatever the case will be. You're, we're constantly gifting and constantly exchanging food with and gifting it with no expectation of return. Like it's not even a formal trade, it's simply we gift it to other people and then when they are processing beef or hogs or whatever, that gets gifted back. So there's this constant exchange and no one really keeps score.

Vance Crowe [00:12:22] Yeah, I mean, and this became very apparent to me during COVID when I have a, I have a small group of people that are in this like high trust network and you start seeing how are other people connecting? The ring brothers, for example, they do exactly what you're talking about. They process a cow, they have a bunch of their friends come, they learn a skill together, they're spending time together and then people are walking away not just with steaks and burgers, but like, you know, the time having spent together creates a much more reciprocity. And so as you move into a society that allows you to have infinite possibilities, what you're actually giving up is the, the, the thing that the almost unnameable quality that comes from trade and and shared interaction.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:13:05] Absolutely.

Vance Crowe [00:13:06] So with the Amish communities, you guys fill out regular tax forms, you go to TurboTax and, and fill out your tax.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:13:13] How does that work?

Vance Crowe [00:13:15] We

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:13:16] Pay taxes exactly the same as everyone else does with one distinct exception. And that is social security. We do not pay into social security and we also do not receive any social security benefits. That that's really the only major distinction. There are also communities that don't pay into Medicare Medicaid and then that also don't receive any of those benefits. So those, those are the major distinctions as I understand them. Other taxes, IRS state taxes on and on the list goes. Absolutely. We pay taxes like everyone else.

Vance Crowe [00:13:47] And you know, is your, because of the way you're separated, you pay taxes like everybody else. Are there other rules that you guys say, Hey, normally in a normal person you, you, not to say you're not normal people, but, but you know what I mean, like are there, are there other things? I mean, because to opt out of social security opt out of Medicare is, is a big deal, right?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:14:11] I'm not sure I understand your question, Ben, can you re can you re reform that?

Vance Crowe [00:14:15] You know, like I think it's a touchy question, but now probably less touchy. There's probably people more interested in it now. Like do you do the, the vaccination programs that are a part of the, the, you know, kind of us system?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:14:28] Well that's, and just as much the same as in society at large, it's really an individual choice. So everyone within the community has the, has the freedom to make individual choices. So all of all of our medical expenses are self-paid to the ability that a person can pay in cash and then if it exceeds their ability, if they require medical treatment that exceeds their ability to pay, then it, it is kind of a mutual medical insurance where the, the community pitches in, everyone pitches in to help pay medical bills. And so it is, it is individual choice, but I would say broadly, I, I don't have hard exact numbers and data to support this up, but just based on people community's relat that I have and people that I know, I would expect that probably less than 20% of people are considered fully vaccinated. It might actually be a much smaller number than that. It's, it's practically no one in my, in, in my immediate circles. But I'm also cognizant of the fact that because of my personal worldview and beliefs, my immediate circle could be a little bit of an echo chamber.

Vance Crowe [00:15:32] Well, that's everybody, right? Like, it, it, it's, it's absolutely unavoidable. When you think about medical, are there, you know, prohibitions on how far medical treatments can go? Are you, I mean, you're wearing glasses that I assume were machined by something.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:15:49] No,

Vance Crowe [00:15:50] No. And and

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:15:51] Again, there's, there might be some community variation between various communities, but the community that I'm a part of, and most of the communities that I'm familiar with, there are no boundaries or no restrictions really of any type.

Vance Crowe [00:16:04] I think that it's, what's funny is if we had had this conversation and I had brought up, you know, vaccinations and, and you had said less than 20% are vaccinated in my community,

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:16:14] Three

Vance Crowe [00:16:14] Or four years ago there'd be gasps, right? You'd have people being like, oh my goodness. But then after having watched how COVID was handled, I think there are a lot of people that would've just gone along with the program before, but are now much, much more cautious about vaccines and, and, you know, participation in, in the expected things that go on with the, with the government. And I think that goes along with things like people's openness to things like raw milk, right? There's just a lot more people saying, I'm going to opt for the, for the choice not that's right in front of me, but that, that I'm choosing.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:16:50] Yeah, we, we could have a really interesting conversation around this. You know, I, I'd like to expand and clarify my answer on vaccines. I was vaccinated as a, as a child, most of my siblings were. And the, the way that I frame my response is that fewer than 20% of people are fully vaccinated. I'd say there are, there's a decent percentage, if I had, this is just a guesstimation, but let's guesstimate 60 to 70% that receive a handful of childhood vaccines, a few key ones that people think they have done their research and their homework on. They think that these might be important and valuable, but not, not the full regime of what is it 90 plus that are recommended at childhood vaccines at this point. And so I don't think the, the culture and the population is, I don't think you could accurately generally describe them as anti-vaccine. They are just more cautious and want to identify which vaccines best fit the risk reward profile from, from their perspective and from what they're able to learn from developing a, an informed opinion. But when you look at what happened the last three or four years with COVID, you know, it was, it was a fascinating experience and we were very fortunate and very blessed. So I, I live here in the, the fourth largest Amish community and in North America, well, in the world for that matter. And the at at, at first, you know, initially early on there were, there were lots of unknowns.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:18:21] Like how, how serious is this really? How significant is it? There were lots of questions, but when the masking mandates came out and the social distancing at first it was two weeks, and then it was two more weeks, and then it got extended out to a couple months. And that narrative lasted inside the Amish community until I would say roughly the four to six week mark after the first mask mandate. And the social distancing came out as, as you know, the, the social fabric within the Amish community is very important. And so in, what was it, I I wanna say roughly March, somewhere in there, school shut down for a couple weeks. I, in fact, I think most of the schools shut down for the remainder of the school year that year. And there were a few church districts that didn't hold church one Sunday, but that the whole narrative, or even a couple Sundays. But that narrative then sh that narrative lasted about four weeks. And then it was game over the, the, the, the community recognized the, the political games that were going on. And there was no masking, no social distancing. We went to church, we went to schools, we had our family gatherings, we worked together. There was, there was none of that at all. And, and so we were, while the rest of the world was experiencing a lot of social and familial trauma and relationship trauma, the Amish community didn't actually get to experience a lot of that. And the, the, the rebellion, if you will, was so effective that the, we had several governor mandates state, state mandates here for mask mandates.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:20:01] And they went after retail stores, retail outlets to that the stores have to mandate the have to mandate people wearing masks or they can't check them out. And we had local grocery stores that refuse to check people out and people would abandon full grocery courts, full grocery carts at the checkout counter because they refused to wear masks even for the checkout process. And as a result of that community-wide effort, there was only one business in all of the local area that was successful in preserving its mask mandate. And that was the bank. 'cause people had no choice to get to the, but what actually happened, what ended up happening is people would line up for the drive through, they would do it outdoors. There would be a line of a hundred people waiting to go through the drive-through no social distancing and no masking because they refused to go into the bank where they had to wear a mask. But grocery stores they buckled in 24 hours because they were losing a tremendous amount of business because people just simply refused to comply.

Vance Crowe [00:21:05] Oh man, this is, I mean, it's shocking to me to believe that the, the, the like voice of resistance and rebellion comes from the Amish, but that makes me feel so good. Right? And I think, like you described this right from the exact right spot, which is the community fabric is so strong that when rules start getting put in place that rip at the fabric of a community, you probably felt it a lot more acutely than other people. A lot of other people that went to churches, I know my parents, for example, decided they were gonna take synthetic church, right? The the church over Zoom and that just wasn't gonna happen in the Hummish community. Right. And I think when people look back, there are a lot of churches that just got decimated by, by the fact that the thing that had held them together for years got broken. Those habits, those connections, and they never came back. I know the Catholic churches around the St. Louis area, I mean, they're closing down churches because they don't have enough attendance. And I would say many people would've expected that the Catholic church of all places would've said, oh, let's, let's keep having mass. But they didn't, they were the first ones to, to bend the knee, so to speak.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:22:12] Yeah. You know, what was interesting is the, and there, there's always, as you would expect of any large group of people, there are a wide variety of opinions and perspectives. And so there were people within the Amish community that were quite insistent and emphatic that we, we need to be respectful of our government and we need to, we need to comply. And as a result of those voices, a group within the Amish community set about and gathering all the data and, and, you know, in a, in a small community as this one is, even though I said it's the fourth largest, that's really not all that big. I'm, I'm probably one degree or at most two degrees of separation away from everyone else in the community. Everyone knows everyone else by extension. And so, and we kept, we keep close tracks of deaths and everything, everything else. So a few individuals set out to, and they collaborated with the local university hospital system to actually collect the data. And in an 18 month period from the beginning of COVD, there were 85 deaths of which six were labeled as COD two were verified, four were unconfirmed. And, and there was, there was no excess deaths. There was none of that. Now, I'm, I'm also cognizant the fact that what is, what is relevant, what worked for our community may not work, may not have been applicable to a population in a city. For example, we live a very rural lifestyle.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:23:44] We grow lots of our own food. And so without question, we have immune systems that are much more robust than a lot of other people's, or at least i, I shouldn't say without question, but that would be my expectation. That would seem like a plausible expectation. And so there, there were no, oh, oh, and by the way, the two that were confirmed, verified COVID also had major other, what's the right word? Not co-infections morbidities, but one comorbidities. Yes. One was hospitalized for diabetes and one was hospitalized for obesity and they contracted COVID in the hospital. And that was listed as the cause of death.

Vance Crowe [00:24:25] I mean, that's, it, it, that's the type of things that you can't really do in a large population. You can't get numbers like that. You can't parse it. You have to trust other people like the government and the fact that you guys are leveraging the, the fact that it's traceable, that you can know the people that are there, that you're one degree of separation. You know, that actually makes me think, you know, you've talked about how large the Amish community there is, I'm kind of a believer in this Dunbar number of you can know about 140 families. Is that approximately the size or are you larger than that? Tell me what do you We are at Dunbar.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:25:04] Yes, I'm familiar with the, with the idea. So the, the Amish community is, or any given community is divided up into various church districts that have geographic boundaries. And they're geographic boundaries because that's what facilitates close neighborhoods and driving together with horses and buggies to church and so forth. And

Vance Crowe [00:25:26] So

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:25:28] A church district will usually have somewhere between 20 and 40 families. And that is the, the size is constrained by how many people we can host in our homes for church services.

Vance Crowe [00:25:41] Oh, 'cause you don't have, and you do it in your homes.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:25:44] We, we, we all rotate and take turns hosting church services in our homes. So once, I mean 40 families is, is getting to the point of straining the capacity for most people's shops, garages, homes, whatever, wherever they're hosting church. And often at that point they will divide it into two. So now you drop back down to 20. And so in the community that I'm a part of, we are, I'm not sure the exact number, but ballpark right around 160 church districts. So that's a, it's a pretty large number.

Vance Crowe [00:26:16] Wow. And I mean the, the I I've actually recently been talking with a good friend of mine that has built up a small community of about, I think it's about 10 young guys in their twenties that are smart and trying to do things. They meet regularly, they try and push each other to do more. And they have now been like, Hey, we want to expand and so how are we gonna do that? Do you just start a new group and send a leader out? And he's been trying to explore like, well, you know, what is the, that we can do to make sure that our, the people that are, that are already here are getting what they need out of this. But as they spread out that when they start a new community, that community has the foundational, the, the DNA, the starter yeast, whatever that is to keep going. What, what you have, what, what advice do you have from watching these churches spread?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:27:08] I don't know that I have advice. Just looking from, from experience and observation. Some of the more liberal Amish groups, those that are called New Order Amish, have a more evangelical perspective and approach of trying to be trying to broaden out and to broadcast their light to the world. And so they, they are very active at, at maintaining smaller communities and spreading those communities out geographically. And so they have the, the approach and the practice of usually sending out a small group, three to five families initially as a starter group in an area, and then using that to attract more people in. And, and so they have, and they of course speci specifically select individuals and families who are very, who are very grounded.

Vance Crowe [00:27:55] And when you say that very grounded, what does that mean?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:27:57] Oh, it means about 50 things at once. Don't, you know, they're, they're,

Vance Crowe [00:28:03] They are

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:28:04] Leaders that people can respect and they are very grounded in reality, but also very grounded spiritually.

Vance Crowe [00:28:11] So let's talk about like leadership and respect. These things all come from people making good choices and, you know, moving past your youth, and I am familiar vaguely with this concept called rumspringa,

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:28:27] Where,

Vance Crowe [00:28:27] Where

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:28:28] Young people

Vance Crowe [00:28:29] Are, are not forced to join the church. They get, they get to have some freedom 'cause they get old enough to be a semi adult. They get to go out into the world and try things and then they have to decide on their own to come back. Would that be an accurate description of that?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:28:42] No, it's a very accurate description if you want to sell lots of TV shows and movies, but it's not an accurate reflection of what's actually a real life. Okay. So, so let's talk about Rome Springer. Rome Springer is a German phrase or Pennsylvania German phrase that if it were translated literally means running around and the there is. So it is act, the, the concept essentially is that this is a, a time, a window of opportunity for young people to get to know other youth throughout the community, to really spread out beyond their immediate family and neighborhood and church circles. And to get to know other people in the community with the eventual objective of finding a life partner and getting married. And so there's, there's one fundamental misunderstanding, which is the way that it's commonly portrayed in the, in the media is that this, this period, there's the expectation that you are, you have free reign, you can go do whatever you want and sow your wild oats, so to speak. And certainly that does happen. And there's the opportunity for that because if you are, if you are not yet baptized, not yet a church membership, there isn't the element of church control that then occurs later in life. But the, so that, that opportunity does exist and that can happen, but the community expectation and the family expectation is that the traditions and the culture will be respected.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:30:19] So while, while there are youth that do go out and sow their wild oats, so to speak, the great majority of them still comply with the community family expectations and they're still an inherent part of the culture. Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:30:33] I feel like I have a, an unusual understanding of this concept that you're describing. I, I'm glad you clarified. 'cause I didn't know that it wasn't like go on to sow your wild oats because I grew up in a community where there were a lot of apostolic Christians, which I would say are probably like plain folk adjacent, you know, so a lot of the people that I grew up with, they didn't have televisions in their homes, may, maybe now they have cell phones, but they'd be very limited, but they weren't, they certainly had electricity and, you know, dishwashers and washing machines. And there was oftentimes a point where somebody would quote unquote join the church. And as a part of the church, you would go around and apologize if you had wronged people before you had done it. And, and sometimes, most of the time that apology would be for people within your community, people you spend a lot of time with. But every once in a while, like as happened with me, a kid joined the church and went to my parents and was like, I'm really sorry I was a bad influence on Vance and got him into all those things. And my parents that are coming to me being like, what exactly was he a bad influence on?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:31:40] But that, that

Vance Crowe [00:31:41] That process then when they do finally go through with the baptism and they join the church, they're not a part of the regular community. They, they don't play sports. The women dress a certain way and they, they are definitely a more fully a full member of that community by decision. It's not something that just happened through inertia. You have to make that choice.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:32:02] That sounds like a very similar process that was very well articulated advance. And that's essentially the exact same process that happens inside the Amish communities. So

Vance Crowe [00:32:10] Your, your clothing, you know, this is something that people, you know, can instantly observe both your beard if they were able to see your face on this podcast or the way that plain folk dress. What, what, what are the, the rules and thinking around that? The

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:32:26] Original intention stems from an interpretation of the Bible verse that we are supposed to be separate from the world. And that could be a whole conversation in and of itself of what that exactly means. I my guess is it probably means things within the spirit and within our hearts and minds rather than how we dress externally or at least, although I will say that what is in our hearts and minds does is reflected in how we dress externally. But it is, what's the right way of describing it? I, I suppose you could say that to, in, in some ways it is almost a traditional culture. It's become a traditional culture. It's become a culture of a dress code. And there certainly is a, a formal church and community expectation around it. But that is, I'm not quite sure how to describe this. The, you know, as, as you develop spiritually, as you develop within the dress code, it becomes, it becomes a lot more important and a lot less important at the same time. It becomes important because you realize that it reflects that dressing conservatively is a reflection of the values that you hold, but the exact details of what a conservative dress looks like can mean very different things to different people. So the exact details of what that means become less important and the concept becomes more important. I'm not sure if I'm articulating that clearly or not, but,

Vance Crowe [00:33:58] Well, I, let me, those are the words that come to mind. Lemme repeat it back for you and, and see if I understand. It's, it's that by being a part of the community you recognize, hey, there's a reason that we want to, to do this, that we wanna dress in this way because of how it, how it gives us some parameters to live our lives around. But we are not driven by these parameters. It's not like you wake up being like, oh, I really wish I could wear shiny buttons and, and, and have a collar popped. It's that like, hey, by the fact that we've done this, I've seen the benefit of it. I I understand kind of where it's coming from. So it's just a part of what you're doing and it does define you, but you are not purposefully defining yourself or your actions based on it.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:34:39] Yes, very well articulated. And also the as as you really settle into or assimilate these core values as, as you mature a little bit and you think about what is really important in life, what's important for you spiritually, the, the desire for fashionable dress or to follows the latest fas or whatever you wanna call it, the, the desire for that just kind of fades away and disappears.

Vance Crowe [00:35:04] Do, do people from the outside world join Amish communities? Have you seen people that were, you know, I dunno what you wanna call us regular folk normies, you know, like outside, within the Amish community we

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:35:17] Refer, we refer to, to non Amish people as English people, just kind of as a broad generalization, but the yes, it does happen. And as, as you might expect, the, the more conservative the a particular Amish denomination is, or a particular community is, the less frequently it happens. Because usual, usually people who are, who really have a desire to join, they will, they will tend to be attracted to people who are perhaps more closer to where they are on the spectrum. So the less conservative groups tend to have that happen much more frequently. But it's, I don't have any good estimation of, of how frequently it happens, but it does happen.

Vance Crowe [00:36:01] Yeah, I would think that it would be a pretty radical culture change within your own country to do it. But really anytime you join a faith that is, you know, as a community, as strong as, as you know, the, the one that you we've been describing probably is gonna be a pretty culture shift. Well,

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:36:19] Well there there are two aspects that, or two pieces that I would like to add to that. One is there, there is, we have a, a fairly significant boundary in that we speak a completely different language. English is a second language for us. I, I didn't learn to speak English until I went to school. And so within church and within the family setting, we speak what is called Pennsylvania Dutch or Pennsylvania German, which is a, a German dialect. And so there's, there's a reasonably significant barrier there. And, but the piece is, the thing is that you don't have to, you don't have to join the Amish church to participate in community. So there are different aspects of community. There is, there is the community culture tradition, the the culture of, of sharing and the gifting exchange that we were speaking about earlier. You don't have to be Amish to participate in that. You can make Amish friends and participate in that tradition simply by living in geographic proximity and, and be a part of that circle if you want to go to the next level and, and participate also in the, in the spiritual practice, not just the community practice, but the spiritual practice being a part of a, a church that aligns with your values of what you believe to be important. You don't have to be Amish to do that either. There are many other church denominations around the world who, and around the country who I think would be fairly closely aligned with what the Amish believes, such as the apostolic church that you were mentioning earlier.

Vance Crowe [00:37:55] When you describe like your, you know, going to church in community and in in people's homes. I think for a lot of people, maybe I'll just speak for myself, like going to churches, a I gotta get there by this time and then I'm gonna get through it and then we're done and then I've like checked that box. Is is that your experience or are you like, man, I just want to get through church as quick as we can and then get back to regular life? It's

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:38:20] Completely dependent on the individual church and that church's leadership and the, the culture that they foster within that church district. So I'm here within a community of, of 160 different church districts roughly. And there are, there are churches where people are there for our church service are usually fairly long, roughly two and a half to three hours. And they will be there for the church service, they will eat lunch together and within 30 minutes of having lunch finished, everyone is cleared out and gone home. There are other church districts where people will still be hanging out and having awesome conversations four to five hours later. So it is really, it's really a question of what is the, what's the environment that is fostered by that particular church's leadership.

Vance Crowe [00:39:07] And when you describe the, the service, are you able to talk about like kind of, is there a pattern to it? Is there, you know, w depends on whose house you're at, how does it work? Well,

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:39:17] There's a very consistent pattern. We'll open with singing two or three songs, sometimes four. And then there are, there's the sermon, there are three different parts of the Thur sermon, three different speakers, several follow up and, and validate to provide testimony on the sermon to validate it or to raise any points that they were concerned about. And then we sing a couple of closing songs and, and as part of the sermon, there's also scripture reading to different scriptures or usually a part of the sermon. And we, we close with a song, again,

Vance Crowe [00:39:50] Points that people were concerned about. This is so antithetical to my Catholic upbringing. Like, you're not, like there's no, you're not supposed to bring up things you're concerned about. You're only supposed to find out, well, am I doing something I need to go to confession for?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:40:06] Well, there is the, there's the recognition that preachers the people who are presenting the sermon are also human. And as a part of the sermon, they are sharing stories. They're Shannon sharing anecdotes. It's, it's supposed to be obviously within a scriptural framework, but it is, as we know, a sermon is much more than just reading and quoting from scripture. And so they, they've set up a very particular structure so that if someone misspeaks or presents someone that others believe to be unscriptural, there is the immediate opportunity for correction or for realignment so that young people or people who are perhaps less mature in the faith, who are in the audience can have a reset, a reality check in real time.

Vance Crowe [00:40:55] I mean, that sounds great. You guys sound open, more open to, to the discussion that and the, and the like, figuring out the finer details than I would've expected. I I mean I think my expectation of the Amish is like, is very rigid. Everything's all set up. So to the idea that you would have like a doctrinal, you know, analysis while, while having this service is, I mean, flabbergasting,

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:41:20] Well we have to remember that the Amish, like everywhere, we're all human. We're all people, we all have inherent flaws and failures and failings and if the system worked as well, this is, I think the, the process that I've been, that I've described was designed very thoughtfully by very wise people. But if it worked as well in practice as it was intended to, then maybe we wouldn't have two dozen different Amish denominations or

Vance Crowe [00:41:50] Maybe we would, who knows. Wow, that's a great point. That's okay. Fair enough. You know, the, that there therein lies the challenge of, of any type. You organize something, if you create it so ordered that nobody can change anything. Yes, you have one centralized, you know, dogma, but you also become very fragile in that way. But then if you have an openness to things, it's great because you can really fit in, you can find exactly the right niches, but it also means you break up and it's much harder to keep the group together as one cohesive whole.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:42:23] Yeah, there's, there's a lot of nuance.

Vance Crowe [00:42:26] You know, the last time we really talked about the prohibitions or not really prohibitions the decisions that people make around technology and family. I, I am quite familiar with the Mormon faith. In fact, a lot of Mormons do Legacy Interviews, so I've gotten to hear a lot about how their faith plays out with their lives. And one of the big things with the Mormons is not just their prohibitions against alcohol, but really all stimulants. So they're not drinking coffee, they're not having black tea. And a lot of that being because it's just a temptation to go towards things that are addictive. And this addiction comes between you and, and your, your connection with God. How are the Amish on, on substances between coffee to alcohol, to, you know, drugs of any kind?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:43:12] Again, obviously speaking broadly and the community is comprised of individuals, but let's just say I, I would say that we parallel society at large in coffee consumption. There are individuals that seem to run on coffee and others that don't at all. But then I think alcohol is much more common in during that, that youth room springer period, late teens, early twenties, and then alcohol consumption for most, again, it's, it's comprised of individuals and everyone has has their own freedom of choice. But I would say broadly speaking, alcohol consumption really fades into the background and is very minimal, almost nonexistent for most people after that point. I personally detest both coffee and alcohol of all types, but that's just me as an individual detest it because

Vance Crowe [00:44:01] Like it or detest it because like a, like a broader philosophical point. I just

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:44:06] Both, a little bit of both. I've, I've always had kind of this intuitive sense that I've been given a gift of a very sharp, clear mind that I'm really grateful for and that I should not abuse it and I should not even provide an opportunity for clouting those faculties. And so I, I've always just had an aversion particularly to alcohol, less, less so to coffee. I, I don't particularly like even the smell of coffee, but then also on alcohol, I've just, like, I've, I've tried it. I mean, my goodness, we serve wine at communion. I get it there and I've, I'll try a sip here or there, but even just, yeah, I don't like the taste, I don't like the smell. It just, it's a personal or version of some type. And then to, to the rest of your question, to drugs in general, there might be, I think it's safe to say again, there's variation from community to community here, but in, in some youth circles, there's some drug experimentation that goes on. It's very, very minimal. And, and that outside of that, I think drug abuse and drug use is next to nonexistent.

Vance Crowe [00:45:15] Yeah, I, I basically quit drinking a while back and that, that was mostly because it made me feel so sick the next day, even if I had a little bit of it. And there's something that happens when you stop drinking alcohol. If you're around people that drink alcohol, you're like, oh, we're not nearly as funny as we thought we were. Oh, we get a lot louder than we thought. And that one becomes apparent. But then I, I, I don't know that I totally quit coffee, but I, I definitely don't drink a very, I'm not a coffee drinker now. And what I noticed is there's a very similar parallel between coffee drinkers and alcohol drinkers, but alcohol or, but coffee is so ubiquitous that we don't realize it, you know, I now people will meet in my office and will, I'll give them coffee and I'm not drinking it. And you notice that their whole demeanor changes, you know, how excited they get, how much they talk with their hands, you know, and, and you realize like, oh, it's because it's not just a stimulant that makes you feel awake. It actually is a stimulant enough that it's changing the way you interact with people. And it's not a judgment. I'm not telling, don't, you know, don't drink coffee. But I think most of the people don't recognize that our coffee is essentially pharmaceutical grade caffeine and that, that we are changing the nature of our interactions with other people by using this drug for better or for worse. But you should know that it is changing in the same way that it's changing. When you take alcohol, you just can't perceive it because you're in it.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:46:37] That's fascinating. I hadn't considered that perspective. And as, as you point out, it is so ubiquitous that we tend to not even think about it. But, you know, I was really fascinated by one of Michael Pollen's recent books. What was the change? What is the title? This is

Vance Crowe [00:46:52] Yeah,

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:46:52] Yeah, this Is Your Mind. Or maybe this Is Your Mind On Plants Change Your Brain, change Your Life. Might have been either one of those two, but one of those, he really deconstructs three different drugs, one of them being caffeine and the influence that it has on our psyche and our personality and our brain and how we show up in life. It was, it was fascinating reading.

Vance Crowe [00:47:13] Well, so you mentioned things that are in plants and the way that we raise them, you actually as the Amish farmer that you are, sent me a press release not long ago, which I thought was really funny. And it's about what you guys are doing to be able to allow farmers that are raising their crops a certain way because you can't see what's in them or on them to have a certification. You wanna talk a little bit about that certification?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:47:40] Yeah, this certification has been something that people have been telling me we need to do for the last decade and a half. And it's, it's finally come about, the certification is called Integrity Grown. And it's intended to validate the quality of the outcomes, the quality of the food, and the fiber and the produce, the grain, whatever it might be that is actually being produced and also is intended to verify that the process that, that the farming system, the farming process used to produce that higher, what we expect will be a higher quality of food or produce is beneficial to the environment and to ecosystems and to rural communities. And so, you know, people took a shot at this 40 years ago with organic certification. And organic certification suffered fundamentally from two flaws, in my opinion. The one flaw is that it is a, it's what I would call a negative process certification. In other words, it simply certifies that you don't do these things well. You can do, you cannot do these things and still produce food that is absolutely abysmally poor quality. Now, that was not in alignment with the original intent of the original organic farming pioneers, but that is what emerged from that as the default. And so what, every half a dozen years or so, it seems, there's a new article that's released in a lot of public outcry that organic certification doesn't prove that or doesn't produce food that is of higher nutritional quality. Well, it's, of course it doesn't because that's not the purpose of organic certification.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:49:15] That's not the way it's framed. It's simply framed that it produces food with lower toxins, with lower pesticide applications. And so the intention of integrity grown is to, there's been a lot of noise and a lot of greenwashing already in the space of re regenerative agriculture. And so we wanted to develop a Regi regenerative agriculture verification process that is based on data of what is happening on the farm, what are the types of inputs that are being applied, and most importantly, the final outcome, the final harvest, if we're harvesting grain or cotton fiber or whatever it is that that is measured both for the quality parameters, does it contain the nutritional, does it have the nutritional integrity that is, that is necessary to provide very healthy food? Does it have the microbiome integrity to support our microbiome? And does it have, what are its toxin modes? What are the measurable levels of pesticides that are on it? And this, I think this is a very important reframing of the conversation because there are many farmers who say, obviously we, we have the intent and the desire to produce healthy food for people. I think there's no farmer who would dispute that, but they feel that they have a need for tools such as roundup, such as glyphosate for weed control. Like I, I would like to reduce my use of Roundup, but in order to do that, that means I need to cultivate until my soil, and I'm farming in a, in a zone where the soil blows and we have lots of wind erosion if we have tilled soil.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:50:50] So tillage is not an option for me. So what really is the most regenerative solution, and I think this is where we had best not take a an idealistic or a dogmatic approach, but the, the ultimate thing that we care about is we need to say we care about producing food that has low levels of glyphosate. I'm just using this as an example. So what that means is all of a sudden the conversation is though, if we are measuring the glyphosate load in the final harvest, all of a sudden it changes the conversation. It's no longer purely a process question of what did you apply? It's a question of how much showed up in the food. And that introduces a, an additional parameter, which is that when you have really biologically active soils, soils that are very healthy, they can actually metabolize glyphosate and its metabolites and take it outta the system. So all of a sudden, if you look at the system outputs, you can now have a ative farming system where farmers can use, if necessary small applications of pesticides, but that the soil biology completely remediates them, and the food that is being produced doesn't contain those toxins.

Vance Crowe [00:51:55] Wow. I actually was not expecting this. I, I gave that press release like a look, and there were some, some signals in it that I was like, Ooh, I'm gonna push on John on these, but I was not expecting you to say like, we're really looking at outcomes because in effect that's what everybody wants to do. But I would say the system moves so fast that to try and measure outcomes as you're producing this commodity, which is at the lowest common denominator, how, what is the cheapest that we can produce the most of it? This part of the conversation just isn't there. So when you think about putting this certification out there, the only way it works, the only way it does anything of value is that, that, that you preserve and protect that certification. So tell me about that. You, you're testing for all chemicals. Who's doing the testing? How does it, how does it all work?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:52:50] We're using independent laboratories to do the testing. We're testing not only for pesticide residues, but also for molds and mycotoxins on the crops for which that is relevant. So we're, we're really, I mean the, the brand is integrity grown. And so we ask ourselves the question, what is it that defines integrity for this particular crop? And the it is, it is not just, it's, it's both the absence of toxins and the presence of quality, whatever defines quality for a given crop. And so the reality is that the laboratory analytics for those, those parameters are, as every year goes by, they become less and less expensive. They're more affordable, they're more readily available. And so it is, it's not that difficult to test wheat from a wheat field and find out exactly what is present and what is absent. Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:53:41] But I mean, that's, if you have a 200 acre wheat field, you know, you may have no key residues on one part of that field and, and a whole lot on the other side of that field. So how, how, how do you think about this?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:53:54] I I'm not sure I would agree with that assessment. It, the, the key question is, was it all managed the same, if it was managed the same, if it was sprayed the same and a similar process would've followed there, there might be some variation given different soil types and so forth. But in terms of the presence and toxins and so forth, it should be relatively uniform.

Vance Crowe [00:54:15] So another thing that I noticed about yours was that your certification was that you specifically pointed out that you wanted to be non GMO. Now that's not an Amish prohibition because some people in Jish community use GMOs. People are shocked to find out. Why did you decide that that was a part of this certification?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:54:34] So that was specifically on cotton at the request of the cotton supply chains. So there is,

Vance Crowe [00:54:45] There

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:54:45] Is, I personally, yeah, the, the GMO conversation is a whole sticky wicket that if we get involved embroiled in that conversation, it could take us a while to extract ourselves from it. But let me, let me frame it this way. A genetic modification has been utilized as a tool to address nutritional and microbiome problems. So with the exception of herbicide resistance, so let's use BT as an example, the reason we have the presence of larvae affecting a corn plant, whether that's corn rootworm or corn earworm, whatever the case might be, if we have larvae attacking a plant, that can only occur when we have a plant that does not have a properly balanced protein profile. And so if you add, if you have a plant that has surplus levels of free nitrogen compounds, excess of ammonium, excess of nitrate and urea present in the plant sap, that is a plant that is very susceptible to wire worm or corn, worm or corn, ear worm, European corn bore, the list goes on and on. The only thing you need to do is to change your nutritional management to make sure you do not apply excessive nitrogen at the wrong time. Make sure the plant has adequate levels of other nutrients, particularly, and specifically magnesium, sulfur, molybdenum, and boron. You address those four elements, you make sure you don't apply excess of nitrogen and those problems disappear.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:56:20] You no longer have these insect larvae attacking the plant. So the root cause of these pests and these diseases showing up, I'm using this as a BT as one particular example, but I could point to many examples. The root cause of these challenges are nutritional imbalances and or microbiome imbalances. It's not a genetic problem.

Vance Crowe [00:56:42] Well, I was just gonna say, you know, I don't know enough to be able to push back on this explanation, but I assure you the inventor of BT Cotton listens to this podcast, Dr. Fred Perla. And I am certain that he will have a perspective on this, is we're it's a great conversation, right? It's a, it, it is a question, you know, why is it that we needed BT so so badly? And, and if there's a way to resolve it without needing certainly to, to run passes over the field where you're sprinkling BT over top of it. But even the genetically modified seeds, you know, I don't think Fred is a diehard, I want BT in in the cotton. I'm trying to solve a problem. And if there's another way to solve it, I'm, I'm sure he is open to it. I I'll be very interested to see if he agrees with you that the reason that those corn root were, or the, the thri so to speak, are, are the, are result of poor nutrition in the, in the soil.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:57:36] Well, I, I respect that there are all of us. Everyone knows things that I don't know, and we benefit from having conversations, having a dialogue, and learning from others' perspectives. We benefit from identifying the many things that we agree on, learning about the few things that we don't agree on, but a lack of agreement or disagreement doesn't make something right or wrong.

Vance Crowe [00:58:02] Yeah, that's right. That's right. And like, I mean, one of the things, so I think I've told you this before, I was the director of millennial engagement for Monsanto. Yeah, you did tell me. And,

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:58:11] You know,

Vance Crowe [00:58:12] I would go out to talk with people. I think their anticipation was that like, Vance is here to have a fight with other people and like, we should be clear, I'm totally fine with the disagreement, like I enjoy back and forth, but ultimately I would go and I'd be like, look, I'm gonna tell you everything that I know, and if you know something that I don't know that I should know about how these guys are doing something bad, then I want you to tell me, because I don't wanna represent those guys if they're bad. And, and like, if I turn into a Synco fan where all I am is representing them, then we're not in a conversation. I'm just a a, a PR person. And I think in a lot of ways I, I was a PR person, but the fact that I actually wanted to know what other people thought and, and would be like, Hey, somebody told me something I didn't know. Now I can go at back and ask these scientists. And this is a great example of it, right? I, I'm, I'll be very interested, I'll probably write 'em right after this interview, is, do you think that a lot of these insect pressures come from poor nutrition? And there's no question that we're putting too much nitrogen on the soil, and nobody talks about the offhand effects. They talk about, oh, we have nitrogen runoff, but I've never heard anybody say, well then that also propagates other than you, that also propagates other disease pressures.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [00:59:27] Well, this is, at this point in my career, I've, I've now been working with nutrition and nutritional management as the solution. Actually, I should expand that to say attrition and microbiome management as the solution for a lot of different disease and insect problems for the last 15 years. And at this point, after having worked on 50 plus different crops in all types of environments across North America, on millions of acres, I can say with confidence that this is, this is not a theory anymore. This is not a hypothesis. This is something that we have executed successfully in the field in hundreds of cases. And it works. It's effective. I mean, we have Vance, the, the, the, the textbook that is used to teach plant pathology at the university level is titled Mineral Nutrition and Plant Disease. It's the single most popular title that has ever been published by the American Phyto Pathological Society. And there's a very good reason for that. When you look into this book, it cor it correlates the, all of these different plant diseases with nutritional imbalances, with surpluses or deficiencies of specific nutrients. And a colleague of mine, Olivier Husan and a, a group of us, he invited me to participate as well, co-authored a paper, it's now a couple years old and I forget the exact title, but it, I think it's EH and pH homeostasis. And it is a, it's kind of an overview of, it's an 80 page paper, if I recall correctly.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:01:00] It has an overview of how nutritional imbalances alter the interior physiology of physiology of a plant and move it to a state where it is susceptible to different types of diseases or different types of insects based on what's happening internally with implant physiology.

Vance Crowe [01:01:19] I'm, I'm game, I think this is, you know, just like last time, it, it's fascinating to me that it opens up a different, a whole new way to think about the way you care for crops. And I think a lot of times the conversation is, are you gonna use a chemical? Are you gonna use a biological, which is, you know, a very, very small part of the market right now, or are you gonna use hardware? But when you start talking about like, all right, we're gonna really dig in and do nutrition agronomists talk about nutrition, but not on the level that that you are. And I think what it's ultimately going to mean is that

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:01:53] You're gonna,

Vance Crowe [01:01:54] If you're gonna bring somebody on to do this, the people that you're working with have to really know what they're talking about. Because when I think of human nutrition, I think of this as like sy and economics, right? It's like bullshit built on top of bullshit. And, and so, you know, no matter how good you can get at it, there's, there's, it, it's too abstract to have real answers. So I am suspicious of nutritionist in the soil, but I trust and like you. So if you're saying there's a way to understand this well enough to help, then I'm open to that.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:02:26] Vince, here's a, here's an analogy that might be useful. When you think about human nutrition, you have, you have two opposite ends of the spectrum. You have for, for lack of a better lexicon, I'll, I'll use the phrase conventionally trained dieticians. What do they care about? They care about carbs, fats, protein

Vance Crowe [01:02:46] Need calories in, calories out.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:02:48] Exactly on the opposite end of the spectrum, you have biohackers who obsess about specific forms of amino acids and specific forms of carbohydrates and fats and everything that they're taking in to, to a level, to the degree that, I don't know, is it a hundred times more detail oriented than, than the conventionally trained dietician? Something like that. Let's call it a hundred x for the sake of discussion. And the same is true in agronomy. You have conventionally trained agronomists who focus on nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium balance, and soil pH, and very little ls and perhaps some trace minerals. On the other end of the spectrum, you have agronomists such as those who work for us at advancing eco agriculture, who are fi who are thinking about what is the trace mineral profile of the plant and how does that correspond to amino acid profiles? How does that co correspond to carbohydrate profiles? Because the reality is that every, when we think about insects or when we think about diseases, they all have nutritional requirements. And very frequently, if, if we try to think about diseases from a plant pathology perspective, if we want to propagate diseases in a laboratory, it's actually quite difficult because every one of these quote unquote pathogens, I don't particularly care for that word, but any one of these pathogens requires a very specific amino acid profile in the culture medium. And that means that the plant is required to have a specific amino acid profile in order to be susceptible to that pathogen. So when you change the plant's trace mineral profile, that results in a changed enzyme profile, which results in a changed amino acid profile, and all of a sudden you remove the susceptibility to a certain pathogen simply because you've removed a food source.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:04:28] This is what I call passive immunity.

Vance Crowe [01:04:31] So you said something very in intro, the whole thing was interesting, but something you said that was very interesting was you don't like the term pathology or pathogen?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:04:39] No, no, I don't. Because I've learned something really fascinating from several mentors, but particularly Dr. James White from Rutgers University. He, his was the most recent that kind of set my worldview on end. So I'm speaking about specifically about soil-borne pathogens, fum and Verticillium and Rhizoctonia and pythium, anthrax nose, others. These organisms infect or penetrate into a root system. And this happens in, if you pick a given crop in a given soil type, it happens almost universally, but some crops or some plants, you can have two watermelon fields side by side, and one field will be severely infected with fum. And the next field, right beside it, has no visible signs of infection. And there is no difference in the presence of fum inoculum in the soil. And what really set my worldview on end was that there is also no difference in the quantity of fum. And that is, was successful in penetrating the root system. You can have f penetrating the root system in both of those fields. But what is different is that in one of those fields, there is a much richer group, a much more biodiverse group and a larger population of other soil organisms that have the effect of competing with the fum for the exudates that the plant is, is sending out. And they change the nature of the relationship with fum and the plant such that the fum enters into a symbiotic relationship with the plant exactly the same as micro AAL fungi, where the plant is feeding the fum carbon and sugars and the fum is feeding the plant's nutrients, much the same as mical fungi.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:06:28] So you change the nature of relationship from a symbiotic relationship to a pathogenic relationship based on the rest of the soil microbiome. Isn't that incredible?

Vance Crowe [01:06:38] It is. I mean, it's, it's, so it's viewing your allies as enemies and because of the way that you, you define the problem or because of the way you define the terms, really. Yeah.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:06:48] And so it's, there was, there's just been this realization that these organisms that we label as pathogens are not inherently pathogenic. That many of them, in fact, can have a symbiotic collaborative, synergistic relationship with plants as long as they are in the right environment. And you know, the key piece about managing the soil environment to have what a, what is called a disease suppressive soil, that's the scientific terminology. A disease suppressive soil versus a disease enhancing soil. It comes down to the farm manager and the management decisions that we make about how we manage that soil profile and manage the soil microbiome.

Vance Crowe [01:07:25] So as you think about this certification that you have put out there that's going to reward people for outcomes that likely come as a result of doing the sort of nutritional management that you're talking about, of the soil, where does this, where, where does this label go? Where what, what does this empower look a little down the way down the path?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:07:47] Well, I, I'm going to give you a, a very different answer from the one you might be expecting. I, I see first of all, that the label, the verification process, any verification process needs to remain alive. It needs to evolve as, as new information comes forward. And when I, when I look at verification, I, I've been very reluctant to get into the verification arena. I kind of got dragged into it kicking and screaming a little, little bit. But when we look at it from, when we look at regenerative agriculture, what regeneration means from a first principle's perspective, it is fundamentally about regenerating relationships at all levels. Regenerating relationships between soil microbes and plants between plants and livestock, between livestock and the landscape between people, between different human organizations at all levels. You can define regeneration in terms of relationships, and I have to be careful here because I'll get on my soapbox and I'll just keep going. But when you think about a degraded relationship, a degraded relationship is one that is extractive. It is one that is very transactional. It's not as a collaborative or cooperative or synergistic relationship. And those types of relationships, this extractive relationships exist, particularly on the offtake side for farms. The, the chain that exists between farms and the retail store shelf is very extractive. And one of the fundamental pieces that needs to be regenerated is the capacity for stewardship. In other words, we need more people in rural landscapes, in rural communities, we need more people who care deeply about the land.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:09:25] So if that is a fundamental piece, how do you drive that? And the pathway to driving that is you have to have more economic flow back into rural communities. So there needs to be this, this fair trade component. So we are not at this point yet with integrity grown, but this is where I want to get to in the near future, is that I don't want, I, I think it's the incorrect pathway for us to go down to have re regenerative verified farms. There needs to be the recognition that re regenerative verified farms are a part of the overall supply chain. What we really need is re regenerative verified CPG companies and re regenerative verified supply chains. And there needs to be this fair trade component because otherwise, if we, if we just focus on having regenerative certified farms, what that means is that we are once more putting 100% of the responsibility, 100% of the burden of proof on the, on the farmer and the CPG companies and others get to extract that value from the farmer. What we really need is we need re regenerative verified supply chains. And a part of that verification needs to be this fair trade component. And this is what one of the pieces that led us to going down this path of launching this integrity grown verification is because we've been, we've partnered with citizens of Humanity for the last year, actually now the last two years on their cotton production. And they have developed actively this, these types of relationships with farmers where they do not have extractive relationships.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:10:57] They have this beautiful collaboration where they are actively supporting the farmers financially significantly through the transition process. And that means a lot.

Vance Crowe [01:11:06] The thought that comes to mind, John, is if you really do get in with the CPG companies, you are an Amish farmer starting to make a deal with the devil. And that those large companies, they, they, they will bastardize literally everything in this bureaucratic inertia that, you know, bringing things up to scale. Are you ready for what it would mean to, to try and to try and balance this and not get hijacked and thrown out of your own thing? And I mean, I I I think there are the past

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:11:41] Yes, Vance yes, the answer is absolutely yes. Like this is, look, I, I don't remember what we got into in our, our last conversation, but sat down a decade ago and looked at what is the landscape from a macro global perspective of where is agriculture, where are we going, where do we need to go to create the better world that we all know is possible? And I set my, my personal mission and my personal passion is to have region regenerative agriculture become the status quo mainstream global standard by 2040. And I believe that's a very realistic, achievable possible goal. But the only way we will get there is to include the major retailers and the major CPG companies. And you know, there is this beautiful example when I've looked at examples of what are other organizations that have employed or have enjoyed similar levels of, of success. There is this organization in France called Blue Blanc Core, and they have developed a quality standard where they are measuring the Omega-3 to six fatty acid ratios in animal products, I think beef, pork, poultry and eggs if I'm, and dairy, if I'm not mistaken. And they were able to bring together a coalition of doctors and government agencies, medical community insurance agencies and consumers to the point where their, their verification standard where they are actually measuring and paying a premium for.

Vance Crowe [01:13:09] And they've also

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:13:10] Measured, by the way, they've also measured the human health impact of this and have published a number of studies on the human health impact. They've done some remarkable groundbreaking research there that's now a couple decades old and no one has imitated it, but they're now at a point where the retailers are paying a premium to the farmers for producing a premium quality product. And the retailers, as a result of a large amount of public pressure, are keeping the retail store shelf price the same. There is no increase in the retail price, but they're paying the farmers a slight premium. And this particular brand for these animal products constitutes 40% of total supply chain in France and is now in 18 other countries in Europe. So it is possible, it's absolutely possible. And this is, you know, the reality is Vance, that when we look at, when we consider what the possibilities are, I prefer to approach life and the world and interactions with other people from the perspective of always giving people the benefit of the doubt and believing that every one of us has a lot of good inside of us. We desire to do the right thing. We may be misinformed, we may be uninformed, but none of us, no one gets out of bed in the morning with a desire to hurt or harm other people. And if we can clearly show a pathway and shine a beacon, that this is a pathway by which you can have a tremendous positive impact on the farming community, rural communities at the environment, ecosystem, planet as a whole, consumers like everyone wins in this scenario. There is literally everyone wins. And if you were the head of sustainability at Nestle or PepsiCo or Hez or Walmart, would you say no to that?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:14:50] Who would say no to that? No one will say no to that.

Vance Crowe [01:14:52] Yeah, I think, I don't know that they would say no to it. I think that their interests are, are driven by self, self, self preservation, which is okay, that's, we're all driven by that to some degree. I, I think I'm excited to see your level of enthusiasm and I am hopeful that you are are one of the rare people that could assemble a group of people to, to actually fulfill the, the name that you're saying there. You know, that, that word integrity really means a lot to me. My mentor, the person that really helped me become the person that I am has a famous quote, his name's Pete Scot, and he always says, integrity isn't a 99% thing, it's a 100% thing. You either have it or you don't have it, and there's no, there's no in-between. And so by taking that name to me, that was, when I saw that on your, on your press release, I thought, hey, this is a symbol from the universe that there's something important here. And I, I I, I'm excited that you've got enthusiasm and I think you are really going to have a struggle to keep it pure. But I think, you know, Bravo, go get it. We're going to go

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:15:59] Get it and we will keep it pure. And that is, that is my personal commitment. But again, I mean, come on man, you were challenging me just a little bit ago about whether I should be including the word, whether we should be excluding GMOs. So you're already applying pressure to me to not keep it pure. Some would argue. So you

Vance Crowe [01:16:19] People I think will like to hear what you have to say and what you're doing. You're also, you have some crowdfunding going on, you wanna talk a little bit about that? The

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:16:29] Why would we choose community fundraising at this point in our, where we are as a company? It was, it was a really interesting choice and the, one of the main drivers is, is actually exactly what I was talking about earlier about regenerative relationships. Like, and, and for us as a company, we want to have more than purely transactional relationships with the growers that we are supplying and with our employees and with our supporters. And so we've had a lot of conversations over the years about what is the pathway for us to, to allow the, the growers that we're working with our supporters, our our employees, to participate in the company's growth and success. And a community fundraising round was an easy pathway for us and, and, and an administratively easy pathway for us to accomplish that. And so here we are, we're a company that is now, well, I founded the company in 2006. We've grown organically with no outside investment funding until, was it, I think maybe now two years ago we did an initial fundraising round, raised some outside investment funds, and now we're doing a community fundraising round of up to a couple million dollars that's going to close out here in another month or two. And it, we'll just, we'll see where it goes and see where it takes us.

Vance Crowe [01:17:52] What is it if, if somebody's doing community fundraising, are they just donating to you or are they getting something back in respect?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:17:57] No, no, no, no. It is, it is, it's an equity fundraising round. So you, you put in, you can put in any amount as little as a hundred dollars and you, it's, it's full equity participation. This is not, this is not, we're not handing out t-shirts in, in exchange for money.

Vance Crowe [01:18:12] And where can people find that crowdfunding?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:18:15] It is on Wefunder Wefunder advancing Eco Ag. You can also find it on our website, advancing e coag.com.

Vance Crowe [01:18:23] So I wanna wrap up with a question that I've thought a lot about since we met before, and it is that you're incredibly well read and you seem very up to date on things. The only way you can be well read in today's day and age is to preserve time to read, is to make the time to be able to absorb new ideas, to expose yourself. How do you set up your day or your week, whatever it is, so that you have the time to read?

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:18:51] Well, I have the joy of a four-year-old little girl, and so it's, it's a little bit catch as catch can the, our our family dynamics are, they keep life interesting and entertaining in the sense that I am really an early morning person and my night and my wife and my little girl are night owls. And so I usually read early in the morning or late at night depending on how they, what they give me permission to do or how life shows up. So

Vance Crowe [01:19:25] It's,

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:19:26] I I used to, I'd say for well over a decade, I was reading three to five books a week and depending on how heavy the material was, and since I have, since we have our daughter, that's definitely slowed down to probably seven to 10 books a month. So it's, it's still, it's a lot less than what it was, but it's still enough to constantly keep my mind stimulated. So yeah, I, I enjoy reading, I read very quickly and, you know, I think if, if I could say this about reading, people are sometimes amazed at the quantity that I read and how quickly I read. I, I never took classes for speed reading or anything like that. It's just something that you learn by doing a lot of, you learn by doing. It's like I, and, and depending on how heavy the content is and how much I need to spend time thinking and assimilating, it's not uncommon for me to read most books at a, at a rate of about a hundred pages an hour. And this is, this is something I, I actually think that most people have the capacity to read a lot faster than they realize. If they just simply practiced, if they practice reading as much as they practice looking at their phone, we would live in a very different world.

Vance Crowe [01:20:40] I think that is exactly accurate, man. John, this has been just a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for coming on.

Amish Farmer John Kempf [01:20:48] Thank you Vance. I've enjoyed it. Thanks to all of our listeners. Please do consider supporting us in our work at Advancing Equal Agriculture and do check out the work that we're doing with Integrity Grown. Thank you all. Well,

Vance Crowe [01:20:57] We'll have you back on again soon. Thanks, John.