American Artist in Japan: From Gallery Director to Painter, Explorer vs Exploiter Mindset

Alex Dodge [00:00:00] You know, as an artist, I was ready to kind of say like, well, that, that day might never come. And I'm okay with that, and I'm just really happy to do what I do. And if I have to work, you know, a side job to make it a, you know, a reality, that's fine. And I think that the, the reason for that, I had that kind of outlook, was that maybe it was from being able to, to know what it was on the other side, being able to work as on the gallery side and understand that perspective. This is Joseph Ring. I'm a cattle feed lot operator in Northern Illinois, and you're listening to the Vance Crow podcast.

Vance Crowe [00:00:36] Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you're here. Today we talk with an artist named Alex Dodge. This is one of the weirdest ways that I've ever found a podcast guest. I got an email, and it was a guy from Japan that was writing me that he too had recently named his daughter Violet, although it was in Japanese. And so I started looking into this guy because it seemed just kind of unusual. And it turns out he is a world famous architect. He has been in galleries all over the world, and when you go look up his art, you see very quickly that what he's doing is something really, really different, special and exciting. And so I asked him, Hey, do you think we could do this interview? And he agreed, and I have been preparing for this for several weeks. Every couple of days I would pull up his art, I would take a look at it, I would go try and find other pieces of art that I could online. And I am so glad I did because we have a wide ranging conversation about textures and about what does it mean to be a creator? He's, what is it like as a father? How living in Japan was during COVID? It was really a fascinating interview. And by the time I was done, I think you'll get the same feeling I do that I just made a friend with a really special person. And so I hope you enjoy this interview. It's something a little bit different than what we've done in quite some time. In fact, we haven't had an artist on since. Our good friend, Heather Hay Mart, who painted the tree behind me.

Vance Crowe [00:02:09] I'm so glad you're here, and I'm really glad Alex came on. Before we get to that interview, if you wanna meet people that are interested in the subjects that we talk about on the podcast, things like these interviews, talking about art, getting goals in shape. Just this month I decided, Hey, I've been a little off my running game. I wanna get a little better. So I, in, in the network, I'm taking on an accountability buddy, where somebody raises their hand and says, Hey, I'll take on some of these challenges. We'll check in with each other regularly. These are the kinds of things that happen in this digital neighborhood that we call the Articulate Ventures Network. If you'd like to join, just go to Network Articulate Ventures and become one of the people that hangs out with the others that love and listen to the podcast. Gets exciting and interesting ideas, talks about things we just got done with the book, Siddhartha for book club. And this month we are reading a Christmas Carol, which is a very quick read. It's only about 68 pages, and we're gonna hold the book club on December 19th. And if you'd like to join, you don't even have to be a part of the Articulate Ventures network, just reach out and let me know you'd like to join and we'll send you a link. Also, we are in the midst of the December season. All of the Legacy Interviews are starting to stack up. If you would like me to interview one of your loved ones, to record their family stories, their histories, their values, messages that they want to live on for a long, long time, go to store Articulate Ventures to hire me to sit down for about an hour, hour and a half with one of your loved ones.

Vance Crowe [00:03:44] If you're in the St. Louis area, we can do it here in my studio. And if not, we can always do it over Zoom. These have turned out wonderfully. We've had so many people telling stories that they don't want lost to the ages, and what an important and exciting thing to do for a Christmas gift. So if you're interested, go to store Articulate Ventures and you can book me during the month of December. Right now, we can still get it in before Christmas. Alright, without further ado, we're gonna head to the interview with Alex Dodge. Alex Dodge, welcome to the podcast.

Alex Dodge [00:04:21] Thank you, I'm glad to be here.

Vance Crowe [00:04:23] So you and I have kind of a fun way that we met. I did Jim Ruts podcast and you happen to catch that. And then a few months later, you wrote me an email that you also just had a daughter and named her not quite the same name as my daughter, but why don't you tell me a little bit about that?

Alex Dodge [00:04:42] Sure. Yeah. So right now we're my wife and I, who's Japanese, we're, you know, living part-time in Japan between outside Tokyo and New York. And yeah, we just had our, our daughter, she was born about six, six weeks ago at the time of this recording. And yeah, we struggled with the name for a long time, but then when we saw her, it was very, very clear that we knew who she was, which was, you know, we named her re re means the Flower Violet in Japanese. And so when I heard, yeah, when I heard your podcast, I mean, there was a lot that I connected to with your take on being a father. But then, you know, just that kind of coincidence and really felt like a synchronicity in a way. So I felt like, well, you know, I, I rarely reach out like that, but it was enough that motivated me to do, to do that. So,

Vance Crowe [00:05:35] So whenever I get listener emails, you know, I'm always kind of curious what would prompt somebody to, to reach out. So I go and look into them, and as I dig into you, I discover very quickly, like, you are a legit artist. You are internationally known, you've done, you know, been in galleries that I've seen in New York, you've been in Kansas, you've been all over in Japan. It is amazing to me. And when I first reached out to you to talk about, hey, would you be interested in doing a podcast? I started with the caveat that, because this is an audio, I mean, yes, of course we're on video, but most people listen to this. It's very difficult for me to even have a language to describe art. In fact, I feel pretty intimidated because I, I, this is not something I have a deep background in. And you're like, nah, I think it'll be fine. So if you are gonna just take a shot at describing your art to someone that can't see it, how would you go about that?

Alex Dodge [00:06:33] Okay. Yeah, I mean, this is, this is the big problem. I think this is like the core of, I think why you've probably had, you know, some, some hesitation in wanting to talk about art in the first place. And I think it's, the, the difficulty there is it's hard to describe something that's visual, you know, you, you to, to put that into language is a very difficult thing to begin with. So for me, I mean, I think that I would say that I, lately a lot of my work has a lot to do with textiles. It has a lot to do with pattern, it has a lot to do with the tactile nature of both the thing being described, but also very much the tactile nature of the surface of, of the paint. So it's about, I think that my work is a lot about paint, it's a lot about pattern and a lot about the visual sort of sensation of looking at, looking at something like that. So there's a lot of different levels to it. I like to say that on a more abstract level, my work sort of has maybe three sort of simultaneous layers to it. On one hand, the first layer is sort of, I would say self-portraiture in a sense. It doesn't mean like I'm literally making self-portraits, but oftentimes, you know, especially now in the past two years, I've actually started to do figurative or character, you know, based work.

Alex Dodge [00:08:04] And so those are, I think, in many ways, self-portraiture ways of, of, you know, describing my own experience as a person, as a, you know, trying to, to do that. But on this, on another layer, I would say that there are themes that, you know, maybe range on on science, science fiction tropes or ideas within science fiction sort of vocabulary. And then I would say the, the third layer of that is oftentimes an extension of that, that it can be a form of, you know, maybe cultural critique or ways of talking about the present through a kind of lens of an alternate timeline or science fiction sort of vantage point. And so I think that all of those things are way, maybe that's a way of kind of talking about the, the way that, that I just, the, the imagery or something that I'm, I'm working with, but on a very, on a more technical or, or kind of process level. You know, it's a lot of the work that I do, most of the work I do now is really coming from a process that starts with, with ideas and might start with with a sketch. But most of the work I do is really in a virtual space. So I'm actually creating rich 3D simulated worlds, really, and then figuring out how to take that virtual object or experience or situation and turn that back into a painting. And so I've kind of created an elaborate process of doing that that uses a lot of different digital and analog tools to, to turn something from an idea to a virtual situation or, or object, and then back into a, a physical acrylic and oil paint painted object.

Alex Dodge [00:09:51] So

Vance Crowe [00:09:52] In preparing for this interview, I've spent quite a bit of time with your art, you know, well, thank you. Whether, whether or not you can see that, you know, in its fullness, now that I'm looking at you and your background, you can see the prints are much larger in your, in your background than they are on my computer. But when I was looking at your stuff, I was very struck by two things. One is I have a very good friend named Rob Long, he's been a guest on the podcast a couple of times. And we would occasionally encounter art at like a coffee shop, and he could really just stop what he was doing and look at the art, even if it was something that I was like, eh, this doesn't look very good. And he would always ask the question, well, this person decided they were going to leave something into the world, they were gonna put it there and just let people react to it. So I'm trying to figure out what it is that they put there. And oftentimes I, I can't really tell unless I, I spend some time with it. And so I spent some time with the very first piece of art on your homepage. Oh yeah. Where it's, it's like Roger, right? And he's this character that at first it just looks kinda like a, like almost a Sesame Street character staring off into space.

Alex Dodge [00:10:58] I would say he's sort of an off-brand Muppet. Yeah. So yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:11:01] Something like that.

Alex Dodge [00:11:02] And, but,

Vance Crowe [00:11:03] But then as you spend a little bit more time with it, you realize like, wait a second, the detail here and the texture with that detail is truly awesome. And that from just looking at this two dimensional space, you can tell that he's got fur kind of right. And it's got this like three dimensional texture to it. He's wearing an Oshkosh, you know, bib overalls, and you can tell that the texture of that, you know, material is different. Then you start looking at the shadow and where his eyes and his gaze are, and you start to realize like, this is not just a collage of off-brand muppets to your point, but it's actually like there's a feeling or an emotion there. And, and I, I, you know, my mentor Pete always talks about what is art? Art is something that makes you feel something. And that, that very first piece absolutely makes you feel something, even though it's just this kind of goofy looking character.

Alex Dodge [00:11:59] Yeah. I think, well, so I, yeah, I'm really happy that you tapped into a lot of the different things that were, that are going on in that piece. And, and so yeah, on one hand, I think for me, you know, giving the viewer an experience, whether it is purely on a formal material, kind of, I mean, the, the thing about the, I think that, you know, on one hand, you know that painting could be made completely with no surface at all. It could be, you know, just a, a very, very lightly flat painted painting on, on, on canvas, and it could look the same from a distance. But I think that there's something about the closer you get to one of my paintings, that it, it starts to reveal that rich kind of dense and and tactile texture of the actual surface. Like that that's something that I think that, you know, for one thing, it's something that makes the, the in-person experience of the painting very special. That's something that you can't, you know, you can get with to some degree with, you know, with a reproduct reproduction detail shot or something of the painting. But so on one le on one level, I think that there's something material and tactile that draws a, a viewer in, and that's an experience in and itself. The other aspect of, yeah, there's something kind of goofy about this character, but then I think what it, what what I was kind of motivated in, in a way to do was wanting to be able to evoke something that I was feeling at the time, which was like, this is really, a lot of that imagery was coming about right at the beginning of the pandemic. There was a lot of uncertainty, just a lot of kind of looking at this upheaval that was going on.

Alex Dodge [00:13:34] And you could either do that in a very serious kind of way, but you can also, I think, use something like this kind of, like I was saying, it's sort of this off branded sort of generic muppet kind of character. It's, it's disarming in a way. It's some somewhat, it, your, your first encounter is sort of lighthearted, but then there is something deeply, you know, maybe introspective and, and kind of brooding about that sort of character that's there trying to make sense of what, what's going on. And I think that, you know, offering that kind of disarming sort of entry point into that kind of experience as an image was something I was trying to do. I, you know, this is all, I mean, the, my work really did change a lot during the experience of, you know, first of all, I mean, we came here, we got to Japan, and the idea was first to, to to come to Japan, set up our studio, and then go back to New York in, in two months. And then we just happened to get here right at the beginning of, you know, it was like, I would say maybe two weeks before Christmas, it was just December. And it just, you know, and at first when, when the, it is like, we're right next to, to China and we used hear this, this news coming out of Wuhan, and then we're like, wow, we better get back to New York where it's safe. Then we waited a couple more weeks, it's like, yeah, I don't know, maybe we're gonna stick around here. So we had eventually, we had basically got stranded here for, you know, we ended up staying here for seven months more, you know, than we thought.

Alex Dodge [00:15:05] And so a lot of like, the stuff that I think that I was going through really influenced the work, and it really started to, to change I, and the, the characters and a lot of the stuff was something that really came out of the last two years. So,

Vance Crowe [00:15:17] Well, it's, I mean, to be in a place like Tokyo during the pandemic, I mean, Tokyo is hyper dense. It is, it's, oh, yeah. It's like density on top of density. And to be in a time when all of a sudden the very thing that makes that city what it is, all of that, you know, those people colliding with one another, you know, slamming into serendipitous collisions, but so many people, you could be anonymous right out in the middle of a crowd and, and yet you're there during a pandemic when e everybody is supposed to be completely separate. So I, I mean, I wanna keep talking about the art, but what was the experience like that for that?

Alex Dodge [00:15:55] I mean, as, you know, I mean, the, the signals that we were getting, you know, I mean, the, at the very beginning, you know, I, I really, you know, was tuned into CDC, and they're like, oh, you don't need to wear masks. And so, you know, this whole experience of like being, you know, being in Japan where it is such a collectivist society where, you know, to begin with, people wear masks out of, you know, courtesy be if you have a cold or, you know, if it's, you know, allergy season, people are wearing masks here all the time anyway, so it was, you know, just a phenomenon that was very, very common. But at the beginning of it, you know, you know, we were like, oh, you know, it's, it's not a big deal. This whole thing's gonna blow over. And like, the CDC says, you don't need to wear one. So I was kind of like, you know, going around and not wearing one at first, and then little by little, you know, you realize that like, this doesn't really, you know, look a lot. And it's like, and actually I had been, my very first time in Japan was 2003, and this was during sars. And so I was, you know, I knew like, like, and I think that that's why, you know, all of, you know, well, China is one thing, but, but Japan was already kind of primed for this. They had knew what, what SARS was like, and so people kind of knew immediately like, yeah, this doesn't look good. And so that was, I think, you know, having a little bit of a memory of that from, you know, that many years ago. But it was kind of that, that experience, you know, very quickly made me realize like, yeah, this is, something's not quite right about this. And, and going in, in through that whole transition into realizing that, yeah, I don't think we're going anywhere.

Alex Dodge [00:17:28] We're gonna be here for a while. And, and at first I think, you know, the, the main thing, yeah, you're right, like you, like Tokyo is this kind of density, but where we are, we're actually out in the sticks. Like, we're very much separated from that sort of energy of like, the urban center of Tokyo. And so in a way, like, we didn't ever feel like, you know, worried in, in, in terms of like the virus or being, you know, like we had no cases. And we still don't have any cases really out where we are. And so in a way, like we, the, the main thing was just the social isolation. 'cause we just, you know, no one was hanging out. We were, weren't able to see friends anymore. But I think, you know, being able to be the, like the, my wife and I have a, a really great relationship, and we're able to just sort of be out here and enjoy this, you know, the nature. We'd go on hikes, you know, we'd, you know, other than, you know, watching the news, like you wouldn't really know that anything was going on. And so we actually had a, a very fortunate and pretty amazing experience during that time. But the isolation was a big thing. And in many ways, being a visual artist and, you know, you know, basically someone who spends a lot of time in a room by themselves doing stuff, you know, my routine didn't change. And actually what it did happen is that it did allow me to kind of dive into the work deeper and go into places that I didn't think I was gonna go. And so ultimately it turned out to be a really good experience. Going back to New York for the first time, spring of 2020 was the real shock, you know, getting back to New York and seeing everyone else wearing a mask, that was like, what happened?

Alex Dodge [00:19:04] You know, it was just, you know, that was a really, really big deal to see that. And then of course, the demonstration started and, you know, it was just like, it was a, a wild reentry back into the United States during that time. So

Vance Crowe [00:19:18] Let's talk about you and your deep dive and go into places that you don't expect, because for somebody that's like me, that's not an, an artist or whatever art I do is in concert with other people, you know, I'm always around other people, and that's what's required. But for you, when you wake up in the morning, do you know what you're going to be painting? Do you know, are you like, Hey, I'm going to experiment with crumpling newspapers today and applying, you know, certain types of adhesive to them to see how they stick together. How, how does this work?

Alex Dodge [00:19:49] I mean, sometimes it's, sometimes it is like that. Sometimes it, it really is, you know, let's, let's experiment. Let's try something that we haven't done before. And oftentimes it isn't a lot of the time, it's more like, let's see if we can do a little, like a slightly iterative version of another thing and like, you know, kind of riff on that and see like, if, if we can take this character and, you know, put it in a, into a slightly different position or lighting situation and, and see if there's some kind of nuanced, I think that, like, you know, thinking in systems kind of talk, like, I think that there's oftentimes you can break down any artist out there into two general kind of categories. And I think that, you know, and, and when I say ex exploitative, it's in a, you know, in a positive sense, but there's like exploration and exploit or, and exploitation in that sense. And it's oftentimes like you find that thread where you discover this amazing kind of new process or this new element in the work, and you can kind of mine that and go deep, or, you know, you can do the thing which is, you know, costly, which is exploring new ideas. They don't always work out and they, it, it can cost a lot of time to go both seeing what visually works or what technically doesn't work material wise. And so I kind of find that for me, like I'm much more of an explorer. I like to experiment with different ideas where a lot of people kind of hit their groove, they find something that works and they can just meditate and riff on that in like, you know, endlessly.

Alex Dodge [00:21:27] And my work tends to kind of, you know, I think that you can see threads that run through it visually and thematically across the years, but, you know, materially process-wise, it tends to, to change quite a bit from year to year even. So

Vance Crowe [00:21:44] It's interesting, the, the, the, the way you were describing that, I thought you were going to say that you're more of an, an exploiter, right? When you were saying, well, it's much more costly to go out and explore, because to me, exploring is the easy thing that I have to avoid doing too much of, right? I, I can just keep going. I can just, oh, I'm gonna keep reading all these new books. I'm gonna keep listening to all these different philosophers. And the hardest part for me is to say, I'm, I'm gonna pick one and then see if I can take it deep enough to be able to discover something valuable. So when you were describing this, I was imagining that you were going to say, you know, I, that's why I have to pick one, and every once in a while I have to force myself out. Tell me more about this. Like, pull towards the exploration.

Alex Dodge [00:22:31] I think that, you know, that's an interesting way of putting it, because like, yeah, I think that in, in that sense, allowing, you know, to find the focus to actually dive, to dive deep into something and, and, and concentrate on that one. Yeah, I think that for me, being able to find that balance, or at least being able to explore and then say, okay, let's stop here. This looks like a good thing that we need to, to actually mine and really understand what the, the extent of this is. I think that's come with age for me, because, you know, when you're young or when I was younger as an artist, it just seemed like I would get either bored or just felt like I had gotten it in one or two paintings, and I, and I can move past and go on to the next thing. And I think that's probably something that, you know, maybe with age, you start to slow down, you start to see that there's much more possibility in, in a single idea. You know, also, I think that one of the big things that I've sort of learned over the years as well, which is kind of related to that, is that rather than fret over getting the painting one painting perfectly right, I oftentimes say like, well just do another one. You know, it just iterate, just, and then in a way that actually turns into an exploitative model because rather than saying, you know, this painting has to be perfect, I have to get everything right in this, you just say like, ah, you're gonna, you're never gonna get it right perfectly, so just do another one and you do another version and then, then another version.

Alex Dodge [00:24:04] And that's actually really what I think where that kind of exploitative mode kind of really, really works because you just, you know, you, you're kind of trying to get that hand right every single time or that, you know, shadow, you know, just perfect or the color, the color relationships, right? And you keep on doing it over and over again, and then you look back and you have 20 paintings that, you know, you know, if you had tried to get it all done in one painting, you know, you wouldn't have had these, this wonderful sort of path to be able to walk through many, many different versions of the same thing. Which is, you know, that's the fortunate side of that, of allowing yourself to not try to do everything in, in one, in, in one kind of motion. So yeah, so I think that that's, that's sort of one way that I've allowed myself to kind of maybe slow down or iterate in a way like that.

Vance Crowe [00:24:57] So it would appear to me that you have seen a, a tremendous amount of success. I mean the, the museums that you've been in, the fact that you're, you're able to, to have two different studios, it would seem like, what is that like as an artist? Because I think most people spend, most artists spend most of their lives never being successful

Alex Dodge [00:25:19] For

Vance Crowe [00:25:19] Whatever that is. Yeah,

Alex Dodge [00:25:20] That's absolutely right. Yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, I, it's incredibly fortunate, you know, I mean, and I will say that, you know, the majority of the time that I have considered myself a professional, you know, dedicated artist, you know, it, it, it, you know, I wasn't able to, you know, I was always working another job. I mean, actually, my, my kind of arc really, you know, I, I arrived in New York 2001 right before nine 11, and that was like a crazy introduction to, you're

Vance Crowe [00:25:50] Not like the luckiest guy really,

Alex Dodge [00:25:53] You know, but they, they're always, you know, they're, yeah, that's, that's, that's kind of another, or that's another way we could take this story, which is, you know, the, the, the intervals of, of, of, you know, global disasters and, and what they, you know, like I, I married my wife in Tokyo was really, I, it would've happened anyway, but I think it was really after the, the earthquake and tsunami that really kind of said like, yeah, let's, let's go to the city hall. And then we did a real wedding, you know, a year later. But that was really one of the motivations. But yeah, getting to New York and then, you know, eventually I ended up working in the gallery. I, I became, I started working in a gallery as an art handler, one of the guys who, you know, puts the art on the wall and patches the, and does the painting and everything. That was my first job in New York, which is a pretty typical thing for a lot of artists young, a lot of young artists to do when they, when they first get in, get into the scene in New York. But I actually, that, like, starting, that was like basically starting in the mail room, then I became, eventually became the director of the gallery. And, and you know, I actually built other people's careers. So I've been on the other side. I was a dealer selling work, you know, I was at Art Balls in Miami, you know, selling lots and lots of artwork to, you know, to collectors. And so I saw that side of it. And then all through that, this whole time, even as a director of gallery, I was still doing my own work in, in studio. So I was like, kind of like living both sides of that, of that lifestyle, which is bizarre, but also, you know, invaluable in a sense to be able to, most artists don't, don't understand the other side of the business and don't respect it.

Alex Dodge [00:27:33] So I, I think that that's been a big deal for me to understand how difficult it is as a dealer to sell work, you know, and to build a, an artist's career and to manage an artist's career in that way. So I did that. And then after 2008, again, another disaster, you know, these moments that kind of, that kind of tipped the scale. And, you know, I decided that I didn't wanna be a, a dealer anymore. And I ended up going to grad school at NYU at a program called ITP, which was the interactive telecommunications program, which is nothing to do with telecommunications, actually, it was just named at a time when telecommunications meant technology. And that program is all about interactive technology. So I dove deep into code. I didn't do any art during those two years, and I just learned how to write code and learned how to do things with, with computers, machine learning, artificial intelligence and all that stuff. And then when I came out of that,

Vance Crowe [00:28:37] What languages were you learning to code in

Alex Dodge [00:28:39] Primarily? I ended up, you know, strangely being a, a person who's, you know, coming from a visual background, I really gravitated towards Python. I thought Python was, you know, and maybe it was because, I mean, Python syntactically is very, very clean and, and looks, you know, it's very readable. It's very much closer to kind of human readable language in that sense. And so I really loved it, and I still do. And I, I still do write code now, and then I actually do write a lot of my own tools for making my work, you know, so sometimes there's just a small thing that, you know, can help me make a 3D model or do something like that. And so that, that does come in handy. I don't write code on a regular basis, but that was a huge, you know, a hugely helpful thing. And I ended up with some friends from grad school, started a company, a consulting, technology consultancy to build interactive visual and it all kinds of interactive tech technology for, for different clients. And we did that for a number of years. But all during this whole time, I was kind of doing my, my artwork on the side. And finally there was that tipping point where I realized that the art was really the thing that was going to make me the most, most happy. And so I would say about 10 years ago, that was really where things started to kind of pivot in the direction. And it was also the main thing was, yeah, financially the success was starting to get to the point where I realized that I could survive off of my art. And that, yeah, you know, with museum kind of collections and things like that, you know, are a huge help and also very validating on a personal level as well.

Alex Dodge [00:30:21] So, so I eventually left the partnership with the company and just ended up doing studio full time. And it's been a pretty wild ride, but it's been amazing and incredibly fortunate. Yeah, you're right, most artists don't get here, but it took, it took me 15 years, you know, to get anywhere close to this. So

Vance Crowe [00:30:43] Yeah, Let's talk about that validation. So you, you know, you, if, if you're putting things out there and nobody cares, nobody notices. I don't, that has to have on some ways to be incredibly frustrating. But on the other hand, like, well, then you can do what you want. Does anything change? When you start getting validation, people start, start buying your art, they start saying, Hey, I want this to be a part of a larger collection. What does that change to the inner psyche of a person that's been, you know, dredging things up from the inside to create on a piece of paper something that didn't exist before? How does it change the way you think about things?

Alex Dodge [00:31:22] I think for every artist it's probably very different. I think that for me, it's something that, yeah, I mean, of course, you know, being able to go to, you know, go to the Whitney Museum and see your own work on the wall, you know, there's something that is, I mean, you didn't, you know, like when, when that happened to me for the first time, I was like, you know, I never thought that this, that, that day would come. And I, I think that in a way, I think on one hand, I think, you know, as an artist, I was ready to kind of say like, well, that, that day might never come, and I'm okay with that, and I'm just really happy to do what I do. And if I have to work, you know, a side job to make it a, you know, a reality, that's fine. And I think that the, the reason for that, I had that kind of outlook was that maybe it was from being able to, to know what it was on the other side, being able to work as on the gallery side and understand that perspective and knowing how, how fragile it can be. Because, you know, even right now, like, you know, even someone who has success and has an established market and has all these things that, that are there, you know, the, the bottom can still drop out and the, the interest can wane in the, you know, the, so it's no, there's no guarantee ever, you know, in, in the, in the art market. And so I think that on one hand it's a, it's, it's also, it's, it can be a, a mental it hurdle in a way to be able to balance on one hand the attention, the great validation that comes with that, but also being able to resist the urge to, to play to your audience in a way, to be able to, you know, make sure that you're still innovating on for your own sake in making sure that you're still pushing boundaries and not worrying whether or not people are going to buy it or not.

Alex Dodge [00:33:23] You know, that's, that's a really tough thing to do. And, but it's essential because, you know, when you can, you can see, I think oftentimes when, when people get too comfortable and they just say, well, I know, I know what an Alex Dodge looks like, I'll just make, make one of those, and then, you know, cash the check. You know, you can do that probably for a while. But I think eventually, you know, you'll, you'll, you can see when, when it's not, there's the, the magic has gone there, there's something that, that, you know, the life has, has kind of left if, if, if you're not pushing yourself anymore. And I think that that's where, you know, I'm constantly wanting to do that. I'm, I'm constantly wanting to explore new ideas, new tools, new ways of thinking about, about the work that kind of push, push the envelope in that way to make sure that I'm still, you know, excited about it. And I, I think that's, you know, ultimately, you know, we could talk a lot about what art is for, for different people in different contexts, but I think ultimately an artist process is sort of taking both the artist's needs and limitations within any given environment and trying to reconcile those or integrate those, those two things and come with and, and come with something that, that I think that you could say, I mean, in, in many ways, I think that an artist's role in society is really as an integrator, as an integrator of culture. And it, and, you know, that culture can go on, you know, or that those integrated objects or, or whatever an artist is making, you know, it doesn't have to be a physical thing, obviously it could be a performative thing as well that continues to evolve and become consumed in a different way even after the artist is, you know, long since, long since and passed.

Alex Dodge [00:35:10] You know, I think right now there's a, a show of Andy Warhol up at the Brooklyn Museum, which, you know, I'd like to see when I get back. But a lot of the re the reasoning about a lot of that work, a lot of it has to, you know, things to do with, with racial injustice. And a lot of his, his, his race riot imagery that's going on there, that stuff has new resonance. It's not that he wasn't interested in that. Obviously he was interested in, in those ideas when he was making that work back in the, the 1980s or seventies when he was doing it. But now it's like, it has a, a new spotlight that's on it. So it becomes a new kind of integration of ideas that are, that are particularly, you know, of interest right now. And so I think that, you know, whatever, whatever it takes to, to make something that is, that has that relevance in a way, but it doesn't necessarily, you know, like the, the timing doesn't always match up with, you know, what is going on on an artist, on a personal, on their personal timescale versus, you know, when it might be consumed. So it's like the, the market and the, the validation with that doesn't always match up the time that the work is being made. And that's unfortunate, but that's just the reality that so much comes down to timing. Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:36:21] Yeah. I mean, I think the inner psyche of, of an artist has to, has to be so much different than somebody that's living for the present moment. Because like you could also just say, well, you know, one day I'll be like Van Gogh and people will really understand and they won't just think I'm totally nuts for cutting off my ear and, and you know, they'll, they'll really embrace me. And, and you're right, like Warhol has, has stood some important test of time so far in our culture. You know, when I look at Warhol's cats, I, I don't get it, I don't understand it, but I know that there are a lot of people that, that really, really like those, right? They, they like what he's doing. And, and it's, it's a fascinating thing to think about how what you are creating in this present moment echoes into the future. Like, and, and whether, whether it will or won't last. And whether or not you as an artist should care about that is, is a, is a really interesting just concept in and of itself. Most people don't have to deal with their own mortality in that way.

Alex Dodge [00:37:27] Yeah, I mean, I, I think that, you know, there's, I mean, again, you know, asking yourself why you're, you know, why I'm making the work, you know, and on one hand it's like, you know, I suppose there are to some degree there is that, that idea of legacy or, you know, actually, I mean, I, I think a lot of it is the integrity of the work on a very physical level, you know, is a big deal for me. And making sure that the ob that the object is going to stand the test of time, that it will have some level of permanence that, I mean, because I think that that's something that is different. You know, a lot of the, I have a lot of friends that are using the same tools that I do, that I use in terms of virtual, virtual means as a way of making work. But everything they do is going to primarily live on a screen and have a relatively transitory kind of lifetime lifespan because of just the way that screen media is sort of maintained is that, you know, who knows what, what is going to be, you know, possibly, you know, viewable in five years, let alone 10, 20 years from now. So I think that there is something really, really crucial and special about the physical object, the physical experience, the in-person experience of, of, of an artwork. And, you know, dare I say, you know, there's something sacred about it. Not necessarily in a religious sense, but I think that in a sense that, you know, in the same way that you can read the same book over and over again and always get something different from it, I think that that's the same thing that a good, you know, you know, you know, a good piece of art, you know, does, is that you can come back to it.

Alex Dodge [00:39:15] That you can view that same painting many, many times and constantly, you know, re re-encounter it and see something different in it, you know?

Vance Crowe [00:39:25] Well, that goes to your point, you know, we were, we met over Jim Rutt, you know, that, that you also listened to his podcast. He just did a five part series on meaning. And during that, that session, the guy talked about the word sacred and you know, what is sacred? Well, it really is making you feel a sense Oh yeah, John

Alex Dodge [00:39:42] Vicki, yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:39:43] Yeah. Feeling a sense of being at home, right? Feeling a sense of having some sort of connection with it, and that, that the sacred transcends wherever you physically are, whatever, whatever is going on with you at the time. It's a feeling of like really being deeply connected. And it's interesting because a physical piece of art, having a, a place to come back to, you know, that that's, and, and until I had started going to museums and going to the same museum multiple times, you know, when I was really young, kinda like we were talking about before about explore versus exploit, I didn't want to go see the same museum. Why, why would you go back there? I've already gone past those, but now that I live in St. Louis and I can come back to the same museum over and over again, the Monets Water lilies are also,

Alex Dodge [00:40:29] It's a great museum,

Vance Crowe [00:40:30] Different thing for you because you can see it under different contexts. You can see it with different people there, and yet there's a sacredness to it that it feels somehow like home to me.

Alex Dodge [00:40:40] Absolutely. You know, I think that going to the Met, you know, and, and you know, like I think that that's, that's such a, and it's such a, a very personal experience, you know, when, you know whether you're going to the museum in St. Louis, or you're going to the Met in New York, you know, I have my per my own, my own kind of route and like the things that I wanna see that are in the permanent collection, I wanna go see the Vermeers and then I wanna go see, you know, the, you know, the sergeant or whatever. And it's, and it's like that, you know, I know what I'm, you know, I think I know what I'm gonna see when I see it, but then it's always, you know, there's always gonna be a different experience and yeah, you're right, it has a lot to do with the people you're with. You wanna share that with someone else, and so you bring them there, you know, I mean, I would, you know, can't wait until I can do that with, with my daughter to be able to take her and, and show her, you know, a Vermeer for the first time. You know, that's, you know, that's gonna be really,

Vance Crowe [00:41:29] Yeah. Oh man, let's go in this direction because I'm quite excited about this. I, I remember, so I was taking Violet to the art museum when, in the first winter. So every Friday I would just, I had a few hours of time and I would always take her, and I remember when we first went, the only thing she would even catch her gaze was pictures of faces or sculptures with faces. Right. Other than that, she just, she couldn't, she didn't even see it. Didn't even register. Yeah.

Alex Dodge [00:41:57] And

Vance Crowe [00:41:57] Then one day I noticed that she could tell the color she started like giggling when she saw something bright. And so then boom, I went straight to the modern art section and she was just giggling and laughing as though this was like the first time it had ever dawned on her with color.

Alex Dodge [00:42:14] Oh man. Yeah. That's exciting. So tell, so we, so how old was she when she started to first get the, the color in that way?

Vance Crowe [00:42:20] So she was born in August, and that would've been early January. So, you know, about six, seven months. I think it was about the time, maybe eight months is when she first started, you know, 'cause you're going through right now, nobody, nobody tells a, a new dad before you have the baby. Like, hey, it's gonna be about four months before the baby laughs. You don't know that you're dealing with just a straight up

Alex Dodge [00:42:41] Terrorist. Like seriously, no, it's, she, she's been pretty amazing and, and you know, pretty good sleeper. But yeah, I, yeah, it's, it's a whole, yeah, it's a among many other realizations. Yeah. You're, yeah, that's, it's a whole, you know, transition into, to figuring out,

Vance Crowe [00:42:59] Yeah. So as a, as a parent and you have siblings that are also artists. I don't know if your parents were, do you, do you believe that it was what you were exposed to as a child that made you an artist? Or were you always quintessentially an artist?

Alex Dodge [00:43:15] Yeah, this is a big, this, that's a big, big question, nurture nature kind of thing in that way. And like, you know, obviously a combination, but I have to say that a lot of it was, you know, growing up, my mother is a painter, so, you know, so being, I don't even know, probably, you know, 2, 2, 3 years old and being in her studio watching her paint. I mean, that had to have been a huge influence. And, and my brother is also a painter as well, so we have, you know, a family of artists and, and so I think that there was also, yeah, there was a lot of influence, but you know, it's my brother's work and mind like, are nothing, like, you know, we are coming at the, the, the problem of making, making paintings from like the opposite ends of, of, of, of how you can go about it. So I think that, you know, in many ways I think that probably I got, you know, maybe more of my father who's, you know, coming from medicine, you know, who's a doctor and, you know, maybe I got more of the analytical side and figured out like, you know, my, my way into it was through, you know, obviously now it's mu much more through technology and through, through systems and figuring out how to take it apart in layers and put it back together again. Whereas my, my brother's a lot more of a, what I would call, you know, a real painter, you know, a real painter's painter. He's really much more about brush to canvas and just figuring it out in the moment.

Alex Dodge [00:44:51] Whereas I'm a lot more, you know, tracked out. I mean, I think that the thing that I've been thinking about a lot, not to, to veer off of, but, but the, the thing I've been thinking about a lot lately are the idea of intermediary languages. And that's something that I've just been sort of starting to try to explore a bit more. But I think in my case, like I've, I've been thinking a lot about, you know, what, why I, I tend to find the virtual, the virtual space is this space that, you know, is in between. And it's, for me, it's like there's, there's a, a con a concept or motivation or even maybe a sketch that I'll do pen, pencil and paper or something like that. And then, but it's the virtual space that is this intermediary space that then comes back into the physical. And I think that, you know, maybe it's sort of like this DNA to RNA to protein kind of like thing where there's like this, this, this in, in between sort of process. And I've, you know, thinking a lot about maybe how natural language is that sort of thing that sort of gets us between the user and, and maybe machine learning and, and, and AI and, and things like that with, you know, language models in that way. But I think that there's something about that sketching space, that space that is, for me, very, very exciting to be able to have that virtual space that is kind of, you know, anything is possible there.

Alex Dodge [00:46:23] Not everything is possible physically, but you can kind of figure out anything you wanna do in that kind of, in that space and then figure out how to translate that into a, a physical work.

Vance Crowe [00:46:34] Yeah. And I think there's something to, I, I actually, so my notes before this interview, I wrote them down on paper, and then before we got on here, I was like, oh, I better type these up on computer because that way they're easier for me to access. Hmm. And there's something that happens in that translation that I don't think it's negative or positive, but it is something like clarifying, right? There's, when you go from one medium to the next, you like the, the very act of moving it, even if I were to write the exact same words, something changes or something changes in my perception. And then of course, almost inevitably, not everything does make that conversion, right? So you, you get rid of some things, you add some new things. And I never thought about this with art or going from the virtual space. Are you in VR or are you, you're doing it on a computer screen, or

Alex Dodge [00:47:25] I have done some in vr and I would actually like to get, like, to do some more of that. So mostly what I, mostly I would say that a lot of what I'm doing is usually yeah, in a, in, in a, in a range of different 3D programs. Like, you know, I have different ones that I do just fabric and some that I do some of the animation and rigging in and then, you know, other things like that. But yeah, but the, the vr I have done some VR sculpting and that's been an incredible experience I'd like to kind of get back to being, doing, to be able to do more of that. Yeah. But

Vance Crowe [00:47:58] I also think you're in an unusual space in that you are an artist in Japan, right? So you are like, I, I watched a video where all of the subtitles, everything in front of you around you was in Japanese, right? And then you're speaking in English, but this same thing must occur here, right? Where you're, where you're going from your English, you know, you know western mind into this. There's some sort of conversion factor that occurs across cultures, I'm sure.

Alex Dodge [00:48:28] Oh man. Yeah, that's, I mean, yeah, ja, Japanese, the language, the cultural kind of transitional spaces that, that I'm, you know, obviously kind of in inundated with on a daily basis here is another, you know, that's definitely another intermediary kind of transitional experience as well. And it's, yeah, especially with the way that the work is interpreted here and, and is understood here, it's different, you know, like the people respond to things differently here that, you know, just the audience, the cultural sort of lens that things are seen through. I mean, that's, you know, a really exciting thing about making work in Japan is that people see things that, you know, just nobody sees in, in the US or, or in Europe or in, in more western context. And can

Vance Crowe [00:49:16] You give an example?

Alex Dodge [00:49:18] Yeah, I would say that, and I think that this might have to do with the tradition of say, printmaking and visual culture in Japan. And, and the way that art is sort of understood, which is very, very different from the Western progression, you know, is that I think that there's a much more of a draw to, to the, the surface and to the, the process of how, so in particular, like the, the newspapers, the newspaper paintings that I have been making were really, I mean, people just were really fascinated and really drawn through to that work. And I think a lot of it was because there, you know, if you see those works in person, there's a lot of this very, very subtle in indentation into the oil paint of the New York Times typography and, and imagery that is, is press. It's, it's a, using a, a process that is very similar to woodblock printing. And so there's a big, you know, tradition of ichie, which is, you know, the, you know, Hoai and Hige, these are guys, you know, that were, you know, the, that, you know, the, the i the tradition of Ichie was the woodblock print. This was a very consumable medium, you know, that's the, the, the difference is that, you know, the western model of, you know, the singular object that is worth a lot of money, and the price, the, the price tag on that is, is, is priced as a scarce, the scarcity of a, of a singular item.

Alex Dodge [00:50:57] Whereas like the tradition of, of bu quie is like, these things were printed, there's no additions. These things were just, you know, hundreds and or thousands of, of, you know, images of Mount Fuji, you know, or something like that. And, and you could, you know, anyone, these were affordable. These were sort of like the, the comics of the day, you know, being able to go and get one of these things. So it was a, it was a mass consumable visual culture. And there are things that are, you know, that were traditionally very, very expensive and, but they don't align very well to a western idea of art. So it's, it's interesting seeing that, that that foundation culturally and where, where it leads to people seeing my work and seeing other, you know, work. But it, yeah, it's, it's a strange thing right now because the, the western model, the western gallery model, the western idea of, of contemporary art is I think now coming into a second sort of wave of, of, of collector and an interest in Japan where I think that, you know, during the 1980s and early nineties, there was an interest in buying Western work. But I feel like it was more, had more to do with status and more to do with, you know, when, when Japan was in its ascendant sort of rise, you know, it was, you know, buying Rockefeller Center was more of a trophy than it was about really the architecture, you know, and it was you know, buying a Van Gogh painting was more, I mean, you could, I'm sure that they liked the, I'm sure that they liked that the, the Van Gogh, but I think it was also a, a trophy of the West for a time when Japan was seeming to be on this astronomical sort of trajectory like that.

Alex Dodge [00:52:45] And now I think that it's much more earnest, it's much more about really being interested in the work and the collectors. You know, I was really surprised when I started to, to, to show my work over here. I really wasn't sure what to expect. I didn't, I knew that there was, first of all, there's just not, that, there's not as much surplus income in Japan. You know, the, there's, you know, versus, you know, if you just look at the number of millionaires in the United States or, or billionaires, you know, for that matter, there's just not that many in Japan because people aren't compensated the same way, you know, in Japan versus United States. So the, the, the market size is not, is not as big, but I was

Vance Crowe [00:53:31] Really,

Alex Dodge [00:53:32] You know, just floored after meeting the collectors who have been responding to my work and collecting it here, that they're just so interested in the work on a very personal level. You know, they are really so passionate about the work and it's, you know, it's just, you know, incredible to meet people that are, that are into it because people collect work for a lot of different reasons and as many reasons as people make it probably, you know, but, but it, yeah, it was really just heartwarming to, to be able to meet people and to see how how touched and, and moved they were by it. And, you know, that's, it's been an, an incredible experience. So yeah, that, that, that divide, being able to, to come here, make work and really connect with people has been an incredible thing, you

Vance Crowe [00:54:22] Know? Well, it appears to me that Japan has changed you in that you can look at your art, and I can't put my finger on why it looks Japanese, but even if I hadn't been told, you know, there's something to do with the coloration, there's something to do with the way that it, it's structured and it's not like, oh, well, he has clearly Asian figures, you know, people in this, that that's why it's not that at all. Right? These are, you know, a a pile of laundry in some way. Like

Alex Dodge [00:54:53] Yeah, no, that, that's, that's right. You know, and it's, it's, it, you know, I think that there's something about the visual culture here that, you know, I was drawn to many, many years ago, and it just, you know, it keeps kind of infiltrating, you know, your subconscious and the way that you're thinking about making an image. Of course. I mean, printmaking in general has been a huge influence both from the western tradition and of course from the Japanese side. But, you know, that's something without a doubt that is that I've, I've found a huge amount of, of inspiration from in Japan.

Vance Crowe [00:55:30] And as you imagine teaching your, your daughter about art, do you think you will teach her more in a western tradition or more in a Japanese tradition? How, how do you think that will go?

Alex Dodge [00:55:43] Oh, I, I think it indiscriminately, you know, like we, you know, all, all across the board. I think that, you know, I think that that's, you know, I don't think that, yeah, I, I think that nowadays, I mean, first of all, I don't know where she's gonna be going to school either, though. That's the, the big thing. So, you know, will she be more, more American or will she be more Japanese? I don't know yet. You know, this is a big question. I mean, right now we're, you know, thinking about finding, finding land here to, to, you know, build a bigger studio and, and set up a bigger thing here so that, you know, you know, but it's hard to say, you know, but that these are big questions, right? We have like a couple years before we really have to know what that is. But yeah, I think that I'd like her to kind of figure out what that, where that road goes on her own as well. But,

Vance Crowe [00:56:33] You know, well, Alex, I know you are in the throes of doing early, early baby things, so Yeah.

Alex Dodge [00:56:40] If

Vance Crowe [00:56:41] People wanted to learn more about your art, if they wanted to see it w you know, where would you direct them?

Alex Dodge [00:56:49] You could definitely go to the, my, my two main galleries, Klaus Fund, Nicks sagan klaus gallery.com, that's Klaus Fund, Nick Sagon in New York, and then Machi Fine Arts in Tokyo. And you can always find, find me on Instagram, Alex Dodge Studio. And I do have a website that I, I try to maintain pretty well, alex dodge.com. So yeah, any of those places you can use generally find what I'm up to, but,

Vance Crowe [00:57:20] Well, I am so grateful that you came on, and I will, without question, have you back on if you'll come on. I, I feel like, oh, I,

Alex Dodge [00:57:27] I would love to, yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:57:28] I feel like there's so much more to explore. We didn't even really get into all of your, I mean, you have your, your background is so diverse. I would recommend, and I'll leave links in the, in the show descriptions for people to be able to really take an exploration. But I would love to, to keep this going, to hear how raising your daughter is going. This has been a wonderful way to,

Alex Dodge [00:57:48] That would be amazing. Yeah. And this has been incredible. Thank you so much fans, for having me on.

Vance Crowe [00:57:52] Thanks so much for checking out this podcast. I hope you enjoyed listening to Alex and I talk about art and being a parent and all of the things that go along with talking about this thing that's normally a visual medium. We really enjoyed it. Alex and I are going to meet up again. I'm really in looking forward to hearing how his experience of raising his daughter around art impacts him and what we can learn from it. So be sure that we will invite Alex back on, if you are interested in doing one of those Legacy Interviews that we talked about at the beginning of the interview, go to store Articulate Ventures, where you can book me to interview one of your loved ones, to record their family histories, their values, those stories that you love hearing him tell, and that way they can live on for generations and generations. I hope you will. And we'll be back next week with another interview. Ah.