Aella_girl Commercial Sex Worker, philosopher and writer on shame, intimacy, and LSD

Aella [00:00:00] Like it is two people using each other to, you know, get their needs met. You know, one is financial and one is sexual. So I'm not gonna deny that, but, but like, I think people don't understand like the degree of, of loneliness that men have and like, it's just like a drive to be accepted, like a drive to be loved in this particular way. I'm Hannah New and Wonderer a production lead at a soybean seed facility in central Illinois. And you're listening to Vance Crow podcast.

Vance Crowe [00:00:31] Welcome back to the podcast. I'm glad you are here. This podcast is not safe for work. This is going to be an edge case and I don't think that this podcast is necessarily for everyone. I had a chance to interview a woman that puts out all sorts of philosophical, sociological ideas, but she is also a commercial sex worker. She has her own cam website on OnlyFans and she's also done in-person sex work. She's been a prostitute. This conversation came about because I'm trying to discover new ideas, new ways of thinking, and I really felt like this was a conversation worth having when I brought it up with my family and my friends. There were some people that said, this is a terrible idea. You are knocking on the door of a person that is doing living their life completely differently and you don't want anything to do with that. And I had a lot of other people say, Hey, I've got this question. Would you ask her about this? Would you ask her about this? And so I went ahead and did the interview and it was really deeply interesting. You are about to meet a woman that is off the charts on the openness scale. Her openness to new ideas to new experiences are unlike anybody that I've ever met before. She is high in intellect, very intelligent and experienced about all sorts of things. So while the conversation does have a lot to do with being in the world of pornography or with prostitution, we're never graphic.

Vance Crowe [00:02:06] We're not talking about the details of sex work or anything like that. We're really talking about what goes on in the mind of a person that's made the decision to go down this path. So I hope you check this out with an open mind and you recognize that this is one of the rare opportunities to hear a person that has experienced the world from a totally different vantage point. I want to thank her so much for doing this because, well, I was really blunt and she seemed to be so open with the questions that I just kept going. And you will find that I ask questions here that are maybe even deeper and more probing than almost any other in interview I've ever done. So I hope that you find this interesting if you're the type of person that really enjoys these types of conversations, things that are on the edge, things that push the way that you're thinking, and you wanna be surrounded by other people that are challenging you, that are worth pushing your ideas around with, through throwing out ideas and concepts and hearing what other people think. You may wanna join the Articulate Ventures network there. We have a few, a little bit more than 50 people all coming together. They listen to the podcast, they participate in the book club, and they interact with one another. Sometimes in the business club meetings, sometimes with just talking and throwing out ideas and hearing what other people think. If you're looking for a community and you want one that's gonna push you, then check out the Articulate Ventures network and you can do that by going to Network dot Articulate Ventures.

Vance Crowe [00:03:38] And now onto my interview with Ella. Ella, welcome to the podcast.

Aella [00:03:44] Hi. Thank you for having me on.

Vance Crowe [00:03:47] So you are an interesting character and you have a job or or a profession for the last few years that many people that if they only use Google and Facebook and they stay, you know, in the places where the guardrails are, they never see your work. But would you mind explaining what it is you do as a profession and kind of how you got into this?

Aella [00:04:08] Yeah, I do basically like independent pornography. So I have an OnlyFans, which is basically like Patreon except for sexy stuff. And I post like nudes or you know, sexy videos or whatever and people pay a monthly fee and sometimes a little bit more to access that.

Vance Crowe [00:04:29] So when I think about somebody that starts in that world, I think of it as one that once you cross the threshold into into doing pornography, you can't ever go back. You don't ever go back to not having done it. What was the experience like when you decided to move down this path? Was it a quick one or something that happened unexpectedly?

Aella [00:04:52] Well, it was, it was sort of a desperation one. So I did not have a good life prospects at the time that I made the decision to try sex work. There was not a lot available to me. And at that point I was at sleeping on a friend's couch and like really trying to make my own business. But I lived in Idaho so I was trying to like do photography or something. 'cause that's the one thing I knew how to do. And a friend of a suggested that I try doing sex work camming at the time. So like, basically live streaming being sexy. And so eventually I gave it a shot and I made a good amount of money, $60 for a couple hours of work, which was the most money I'd ever seen in my life for that little effort. So I decided to just keep trying it. And that was eight years ago.

Vance Crowe [00:05:41] And as you're going through this, are you, like, for me, that's something of a nightmare, right? Like where I could be sleeping at night and have a dream where I'm naked in front of people and that is a completely disarming something I, I clearly am, am fighting. I wanna get away from I feel exposed. Did you have these same fears?

Aella [00:06:01] Yeah, absolutely. It was really scary. 'cause I was raised, you know, very conservatively, like when we did not show off our bodies, you know, we weren't allowed to watch The Little Mermaid because she shut her stomach. Like this is the kind of level. So the, the first time I tried this, it was absolutely terrifying. I was, it was very like stressful and I was very nervous, but I got used to it pretty fast. Like eventually you just realize, oh, like nothing bad happens if I'm naked and it's actually fine.

Vance Crowe [00:06:29] And so, so so talk about like the progress then. Is this something you jump in with both feet, you like move towards some direction? Are you, do you, are you, do you have other friends that are doing this? Are you being guided?

Aella [00:06:44] Yeah, so there's different kinds of sex work and I've tried a couple different ones and it's, the answer's a little bit different for each one. Generally speaking, a lot of girls have done it before and you can go talk to them. I do have a lot of friends who do sex work in various forms as well. You have to do a lot of figuring it out on your own. I was very like tried my own thing a little bit more than most people I think, which is why I did so well. But yeah, there's like some, some things that are cut and dry that you just, you do. 'cause everybody doesn't, you know, it works and there's like other areas where you can experiment.

Vance Crowe [00:07:18] The reason that it's so you're such an interesting character is that I actually did not come to you through camming. I really had very little idea about how this world all worked. But you're a prolific writer, so for whatever reason you've decided, while you're not camming to sit down and pen ideas that are so naked in and of themselves, right? Like they reveal deep parts of what you believe that are heretical in most circles, but then also don't always put you in a light that I think, you know, holds you up with a shining star around you. Like where in the world did the writing and putting yourself up on such an intimate level build into the world you're in.

Aella [00:07:59] Yeah, I started writing my blog on 2017, so it was sort of more recent, but probably through doing psychedelics I did a lot of that and, and there's some way where I, I grew to really deeply accept myself in, in every possible way. At, at some point I experienced that. And so I feel like if I am able to take like the really horrific parts of myself or the things that are unflattering and then present them without shame and as though I accept them, which is true, I do then like maybe that can be a, a, a template for other people to realize that this is possible for them. Like, I feel like in doing this, it is a demonstration of love for others to be like, look, if I can accept this bad part of me, like you can share with me the bad parts of yourself and I'll be okay with it.

Vance Crowe [00:08:48] When I was watching your video, so there's a video, a documentary out about you doing acid and I had seen other people from afar do acid, but it was always, you know, very distant

Aella [00:08:59] From me. Like, like on in the, like, like in the distance, like in a field.

Vance Crowe [00:09:04] Well, like people that I knew at a party were doing it and they were just kinda like over in the corner and you just kinda left them alone. And yeah,

Aella [00:09:11] When I

Vance Crowe [00:09:11] Was watching that video, like, you know, I've traveled all over the world. I've, I've had all kinds of experiences, but I felt like that was one of the most intimate things that anybody could ever record because you are having these experiences that are so raw that your emotions are just pouring out of you. Was this, I mean, because you were on acid, was it no, you know, no big deal to be filmed or was it something that you sat around and thought about

Aella [00:09:41] For what I'm, I'm touched that I feel like you saw that like I think a lot of people watch that and, and don't feel how raw it was 'cause it was very raw. So I'm, I'm grateful that,

Vance Crowe [00:09:50] Oh, I was watching it on a VR headset and I actually stopped

Aella [00:09:54] A VR headset.

Vance Crowe [00:09:56] Yeah, it was, it was way too intense. It was actually like, so when you watch something on vr, you can expand the screen so that it takes up basically your whole vision. And I, I was just sitting there being like, I don't think this is an experience. Like I was suppo, it felt like something I wasn't supposed to see because you don't, maybe you only see that with your partner or like a close family member that pouring of emotion.

Aella [00:10:22] Yeah, I think that's the idea. Like for whatever reason I've ended up in a spot where I feel capable of trying to be that intimate with as many people as I can. And if I can then I, I want to like, I, I want to invite people into that degree. And I had done acid a lot before. I tripped that point. I maybe like 60, 70 times. And so eventually I was like, what am I gonna do with lc now? I'm like, I want to share it with the world. And so we got together with the film crew and shot that. It was really great experience.

Vance Crowe [00:10:57] Can you walk a person through the experience that ha that no, they have never done acid, they have no idea what this is, like what goes on from the moment you take it through the, through the experience that you went through.

Aella [00:11:11] Yeah. So it's difficult to explain and it's a little bit different for everybody. Have you tried it?

Vance Crowe [00:11:15] No.

Aella [00:11:16] Okay.

Vance Crowe [00:11:17] I would, I would like, it's something that I am, so I'm pretty open person. Very, very curious. And for me taking acid is, is like messing with the source code of the thing that makes me me. Yeah.

Aella [00:11:30] And so

Vance Crowe [00:11:31] I am very intimidated to, to try it.

Aella [00:11:33] That makes sense. I think that's a very appropriate response. It's very intimidating and it, it's good to treat it with that level of fear and respect. Yeah. It's not, it's not a joke. I mean it kind of is a joke, but it's like also quite serious. Yeah. And I think that's what I didn't understand when I first took LSDI knew about drugs. I, this was, I was like 21 or something and I didn't, I thought it was gonna be like alcohol. You know, when you drink alcohol it feels like, like I sort of behave differently and, but it also kind of feels like I can watch myself behave differently. Like there's like a little part of myself that's still in the back of my head that's like, oh right ala you're kind of, you know, you're being a little silly right now. You might regret this tomorrow, but it's, it's still like, it's like me in there and that's what I thought LSD was gonna be. I thought it was gonna kind of be like alcohol, but just like a different thing. Like instead of feeling silly, I feel, I don't know, very smart or I don't know. But, but when I took it, it was really terrifying for me to find that the thing that it was attacking was the me that was watching. It was like there was no escape from it or like from being modified by it. And so the very first time I did LSD it was a really bad time because I was afraid of that and I was trying very desperately to be ahold of myself, didn't work out. LSC, you can't fight it, but it's, it's really nice that you, you know, you get the colors moving, you see yourself differently. I think this is why it's so useful for therapy because you, it changes the perspective of where you are when you're relating to yourself.

Aella [00:13:05] So it can help you like realize patterns that you've had that you couldn't see because you were in them. And this is why people have like, it's like shifts in their behavior afterwards. It's like, oh

Vance Crowe [00:13:16] Yeah, and you came from a religiously devout family and from what I've read about people taking things like LSD, it can actually shift you a full or or two standard deviations towards being more open.

Aella [00:13:30] Yeah. Were

Vance Crowe [00:13:31] You a pretty open person before you started doing 70 hits of acid?

Aella [00:13:35] Yeah, I started out pretty open and just went more down that road. I was always pretty open, even as a religious person. I know the stereotype is that religious people are closed, but that wasn't true for me.

Vance Crowe [00:13:50] So you came from a background and in the, in the writing, I've read a lot of your blogs. I was Oh, thank you both like fascinated and in some ways horrified, like in, in some ways thinking like, there is so much intensity here. I don't know if I'm knocking on Dante's Inferno doors and saying like, is this welcoming in an experience that is better locked away? But as I, as I read the things that you're doing, you talk a lot about your religious upbringing and the fact that you were homeschooled. So tell me about your childhood and why that plays such a big role in what you write about today.

Aella [00:14:30] Yeah, I was homeschooled in a fundamentalist evangelical, Calvinist reformed family. So it was a lot of like isolation from the outside world. Like we didn't watch normal media. All of the other people, I do not want to restart computer. Thank you. All of the other people I knew were were religious and homeschooled in the same way I was. So like there's this really disconnect from the outside world that that was pretty very severe and pervasive. Didn't listen to secular music. And my dad is a professional evangelical minister, so he goes around debating, he has like a radio show and writes books and that's a website. So that was like my whole life and family was being really immersed in the Bible and God, and I memorized, you know, over 800 verses over my, the course of my childhood. I had a lot of experience like debating atheists. Even, even when I was young, it was like super ingrained. Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:15:27] Yeah. And you had the, a very interesting take on some of this stuff, as I've heard you talk about in other interviews where you said, look, my religion was not one where we were cloistered off and we said don't listen to other people. In fact it was, we're open to questioning we, we want this type of of interaction. And you spoke of it as being almost like a reinforcing thing because you were so open that

Aella [00:15:50] Ultimately

Vance Crowe [00:15:50] Made you more closed off.

Aella [00:15:51] Yeah, so we were, we were very culturally closed in the sense of like, not, not exposure to secular things. However, we were very open to contradicting ideas. So a lot of people have a stereotype that Christianity like, you're like, Hey, what about this thing in the Bible that seems weird. And then the Christians go, don't, don't ask questions. You know, you're just supposed to believe that was not the case with us. We were encouraged to ask questions. Like I mentioned, my dad is a professional debater and so he basically had the attitude that like anything you can question, please question it because we have the truth and we, it will stand up to any sort of rigorous investigation. So it was super investigative and a lot of debates happened and I, I enjoyed that part a lot.

Vance Crowe [00:16:31] A, a couple of months ago there was an article circulating around in ag Twitter with a Harvard law professor that basically was saying the core of homeschooling is rotten. They're teaching people bad things and the only way the state can protect us from the racist things they say the sexist things. Like basically all of the woke ideology that you hear is to eliminate homeschooling. And so I, you know, reached out to this professor, I, I must have asked her four or five times to come on the podcast. It's the only time I've ever asked somebody multiple times. And she refused it. And I was really pissed off at her because I thought that it was completely unfair what she was saying. And then I, I read your kind of experience and I think, well, I don't actually want kids trapped in that sort of homeschooling situation. So as you look at your background and you look at the direction things go in the public school world and kind of the, the experience that you had from homeschool, how does it strike you today of, of, of the state saying you shouldn't be allowed to do it anymore?

Aella [00:17:39] Yeah, so my homeschooling had a lot of downsides. Like I was taught that the earth was 6,000 years old and evolution was a lie. And like the church, the United States was founded on strictly Christian principles and you know, a lot of, I was, it took me a long time to adjust after I left homeschooling. Like I was had problems with, you know, the way I was conditioned. But even with that, I think it was still significantly better than public school. Like sure. Like homeschool

Vance Crowe [00:18:03] Sucks. Oh, I was not expecting that. Wow. Okay.

Aella [00:18:07] Homeschooling sucks, but you know what? Sex worse, it's not homeschooling. So yeah, like maybe those critiques are legitimate, but like I find them unfair to be leveled at homeschooling independently. So like when I was a teenager, I was homeschooled for all of it except for three months where I went to public school just 'cause they were trying it out and it was, it was awful. Like at some parts of it were better, but like the, the schooling itself. So it took up significantly more time to learn way less our, our time was like regimented by the system, by the teachers, by like the clock. And so it just, my whole day kind of went away. And whereas as a homeschooler, I would just teach myself, I would get the curriculum, I, my mom would like, you have to like do this lesson in this book and I would do it at my own pace, which was way faster than public schools. They don't have to go there, like go between classes, like wait for the teacher to wait for everybody to be quiet, like the teacher like reads through the books. Like it took so long. And then, but the most important part is that I had free time at home and that, I think that was the best possible thing for my creativity and my independence and like ability, like to develop myself just to be able to pursue what I wanted. And that was absolutely crushed with public school. So yeah, I would go through a worse experience homeschooling really before I think I would go to public school.

Vance Crowe [00:19:28] I, I was not anticipating that answer at all. Do you have a good relationship with your parents now?

Aella [00:19:36] It's okay. I don't really talk with my dad 'cause he is an asshole. But my mom, I interact with her actually I'm in Idaho right now. This is why I have this background. I'm traveling. So I just saw my mom last night. Did we get along? Okay.

Vance Crowe [00:19:52] So right now I'm actually in the process of reading the book. I'm just about done with it Lawrence of Arabia, the Seven Pillars of Wisdom by Te Lawrence. And I am struck that I actually think your writing is really similar to his writing

Aella [00:20:07] Really. And

Vance Crowe [00:20:08] Yeah, and I don't, I don't know if you've ever experienced it, but it's, it's that it's direct, it's very poetic, but it's not adorn. It's not, it's not, it's, you don't read it thinking, I'm just waiting for him to get done blowing smoke around here to make it fancy. And so when I read your stuff, I, I have to wonder like how long or what process did it take for you to develop the style that you have?

Aella [00:20:35] It's a really, like, specific and good questions. I, so part of the free time I mentioned from being, when I was a teenager I wrote like a million words of fantasy and I read books all the time. I was just constantly reading books every waking moment and writing. I wrote thousands of words every day. And so I think that really got me used to writing, which is again, is something I would never have been able to develop or focus on if I'd gone to public school. So yeah, I did that. I, I think that's where it comes from. And I was a voracious reader and I'm influenced a lot by rationalist writing. I don't know if you've fo followed any of the blogs like Less Wrong or Slate star codes or something like that. But they, they have like a style speaking that's influenced me quite a lot, which is very like unadorned. I don't like the pretentiousness of like academic writing that is like very vocabulary heavy. And I some, I don't know if I'm being un charitable, but it seems like they're like almost deliberately intending to obscure the concepts they're trying to present. It's like a very inaccessible to layman. And I feel like if you want to write well, you have to be like, like a child in some way. Like you have to be like a, like a child explaining like very basically a thing like in a humble way to other people. And so that's sort of what I've been conditioned around, which I, I I like that a lot. Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:21:59] I totally agree with that. I was working with a physicist yesterday who is just doing some work in statistics and I was reading a report that he wanted to give to regular people and, and basically the conclusion we came down to is you can either be understood or you can be right, you can be precise, but you can't be both.

Aella [00:22:21] Well I feel like that's not true. Like even if the precision is in clarifying that likely you are not going to understand this well.

Vance Crowe [00:22:28] Okay, fair enough.

Aella [00:22:31] But okay. I I get your point though. I don't mean to,

Vance Crowe [00:22:33] You know. Well, another book that you, that also strikes me as one that I think is relevant to you is The Naked Sun by Isaac Asimov. Are you, are you familiar with this

Aella [00:22:43] One? I like Asimov, but I've never read that one.

Vance Crowe [00:22:46] So the reason the Naked Sun is very interesting is they're living in a far off future and there are space creatures that live on this planet. It's essentially humans evolved many thousands of years, but they've come to the conclusion that they never wanna see each other. Their holograms are so good that it is like they are in person. And one of the things that comes as a result of that is women and men have no sense of I need to keep my clothes on or I need to not be sexual because there's no threat that if you turned a man on and he was in your presence, then the presence is only a hologram. So they're always distant from you. And that's,

Aella [00:23:26] That's fascinating.

Vance Crowe [00:23:27] That strikes me as something that you might be able to relate well to, right? That you have this deeply intimate relationship with people or they have it with you only it's from afar. No touch.

Aella [00:23:38] Yeah, I'm a little skeptical that it would permeate culture. I feel like culture takes like many generations to sort of update and at least our culture hasn't really updated. Like, like people are still afraid to take their clothes off on camera even when like, you could do it like, and there's no anybody could do it and there's no threat. But we still are conditioned really not to, like, we still perceive it as a threat. And in some ways it kind of is because like if the information gets back to your own community, like the people who are in contact with you, then it's still a little bit scary for some people. But I guess if in this world there is no any contact ever, then, then it makes sense.

Vance Crowe [00:24:16] So were you worried about that, that the, that the imagery and the stories would get back to your community and that would somehow harm you in the esteem of your people?

Aella [00:24:27] No, well, one benefit I had is that when I left, you know, my faith and my community, I left it. So I was al I left my faith a year or two before I started sex work. So I already had been like recently cut off from everybody that I knew growing up. So it wasn't hard. It's like, what do I have to lose? Really?

Vance Crowe [00:24:52] Wow, that is very interesting. So you had been shunned in a way. They had, they had pushed you out, you weren't gonna be going to dinners and things like that.

Aella [00:25:00] So not, not quite shunned. It, it's, it's a little bit like iffy, like a little bit fuzzy around the edges. So there's, I definitely know that some of the families like don't want exposure to inappropriateness. And I know that there, there would've been some sort of like nervousness if people had known that I was doing sex work. Like, are you gonna corrupt our children? I heard that a lot from, you know, other people. It's like, you don't, don't come onto this forum. You must be trying to seduce people. Like I was trying to talk on a Christian forum at one point and they're like, you can't tell people that you're a sex worker because the you, that's predatory. So I know that that sort of attitude, it's, it's basically like we sort of mutually parted. I just knew that I was not the kind of thing that they would like, so I just stopped trying.

Vance Crowe [00:25:48] So when you think about the, the act of being naked and you're so comfortable with it and you know, you basically say, you know, you could take your clothes off too. Tell me about that. Like what have you learned by being naked in front of other people in a way that, you know, most people will never get anywhere close to if they can help it?

Aella [00:26:08] Yeah, I think people underestimate how contextual things are and how much they can change their behavior if the context changes. I used to host naked parties quite a bit a couple years ago, you know, in the before times. And I would often invite someone and they would say, taking my clothes off at a party, like around people, like is it a sex thing? And I was like, no, it's not a sex thing, it's just a naked party. And then they'd be like, what if I get a boner? Like what if I talk see like all these naked women and it's like very arousing, right? This is the context of, 'cause in our current culture, the only times you get naked around like people that you're not like of the opposite gender is like for sexual purposes, but repeatedly every single time, like the people would go to the party and then at the end I'd be like, how is it like how, how are all these fears that you had? And they would report that this is actually nothing like they thought because this is such a desexualized context that it, like everything sort of changes. They, they, nobody really struggled with having an erection because it was like very clear that that is not what this is about. Like these people are not sexually signaling. And I know that I am sexually signaling when I'm online, but I think the context is super important. Like I still feel uncomfortable taking off my clothes in some context, but they're like, when you are put into sort of the frame where you're given permission to do this thing, it becomes actually quite easy and sometimes even like fun to, to do it.

Vance Crowe [00:27:28] Are you having fun when you're working?

Aella [00:27:31] Sometimes, sometimes not. It's like a job, you know, and some jobs, like you have good days and bad days and you have complaints about the job and sometimes there's parts that you like. So yeah, sometimes I have fun. When I first started, I had a whole lot of fun. I I was extremely creative because it was like a whole brand new world. So I did like burlesque shows, like I developed like mimy or I did, you know, goofy photo sets where I was abducted by gnomes or just a whole bunch of random stuff that was really fun. I really liked it.

Vance Crowe [00:28:05] One of the things that I'm struck by is the difference between what you do and say what, you know, free porn, which is around everywhere. The, the biggest difference as far as I can tell is that people can interact with you. Whereas when it's just a video, they are a passive observer kind of from afar. But there's something to, to, at least it seems to me, when people are paying, they want that interaction. Is that right? Am I reading what goes on with only

Aella [00:28:33] Fans? No, that's absolutely correct. Right? I mean,

Vance Crowe [00:28:37] So what do they want out of that interaction?

Aella [00:28:40] And like, the approval of a woman is very common. So like, there's a lot of things, it's like a nuance sort of ball of motivations that drives men towards OnlyFans are carrying or like this intimacy sort of thing. And a lot of it's sex, so you know, you have urges, but like the reason that it's OnlyFans and not like typical porn is because like, there is this feeling that somebody sees you, like an attractive woman sees you and says like, yes, that is what I want sexually speaking. And I think that's like deeply important for the psychology of, of, you know, everybody but like men more so than women. And so yeah, it, it feels like it fulfills some sort of need for them to be like really accepted by the opposite gender.

Vance Crowe [00:29:24] Can you see the people that are contributing money to you?

Aella [00:29:28] No, not on OnlyFans. It, it depends. Sometimes it's possible, but typically not.

Vance Crowe [00:29:34] And so what have you learned about I I think it's so interesting because I'm a man that has been around many, many men and like I have very deep discussions, I would say venturing into areas that would be normally taboo with a lot of people. But you have a very different view, right? You've seen men being vulnerable in a way that, that I never will. What have you learned about men that that somebody that hasn't seen this much intimacy wouldn't, wouldn't know?

Aella [00:30:05] Yeah, that's a good question. They, they're really humanizing. I think a lot of people who view this sort of thing from the outside view it like with disgust, like men are pigs and women are victims sometimes or women are exploiting men. And, and this is true to some degree, like often there is exploitation that goes on, like it is two people using each other to, you know, get their needs met. You know, one is financial and one is sexual. So I'm not gonna deny that, but, but like, I think people don't understand like the degree of, of loneliness that men have and like, it's just like a drive to be accepted, like a drive to be loved in this particular way because a lot of men can find acceptance like through other men or friends or something. But it's, it's such an important need. I think it's very similar to like women's needs to be attractive. Like people are always like, you know, your beauty standards or whatever, and this is sort of like we have the, the feeling of value when we're desired by other people. And, and men have exactly the same thing. It is just really desperately looking to be desired. And this feels like human and sad sometimes and good sometimes for me. And I, I, I wish that there was more of this compassion for that side of men that was present in the discourse around sex work. And this is, to some degree I find that what I do to be very fulfilling. Not always, sometimes they're like, Hey baby, like show me a picture of your asshole. And that's not, it's not super fulfilling.

Aella [00:31:37] But I mean I've been, I used to do like in person sex work as well and I remember I used to hold men as they cried sometimes, you know, because it's just what they needed. And like skin to skin contact, it was like we would get naked and it wasn't sexual. I would just hold him and it was like being a baby. And it, like, I just, I loved that. Like, and I wish I could do that for so many other people.

Vance Crowe [00:32:00] I, a couple of weeks ago I had somebody on and we were talking about this theory called Bear branches theory in international relations. And what it is, is a fact of, of human nature, which is 50% of men will not be sexually successful. Like they won't have children. And we forget in our society that there are just huge swaths of men that, like you said, they're never touched, they never have intimate engagement. They don't have a woman looking at them saying, I see you. In fact, when you get to a certain level in the hierarchy status, when you're down so low, you don't even want women to look at you. Right? You have a hard time making that eye contact. And a friend of mine pointed out something that I had not thought of, which is when the atomic bomb happened. So the, the way that it used to be that a country would have to deal with their bare branches because eventually you get so many unmarried men that have no hope of getting up in the hierarchy, that they end up joining gangs, getting involved in banditry, going and causing civil insurrection. So this has happened in places like China, in the Middle East, all over the world really, but with the, in invention of the atomic bomb, we no longer go to war where masses of men that are unattached are killed. And so now we have this proliferation of bare branches and something has to, to fill this in in some way. And I have to wonder if the work that you're in or the, or the need that you're filling is actually filling a gap created by the atomic bomb in a weird way.

Aella [00:33:32] Yeah, I would, I would be curious about that. I mean, to some degree, like prostitution has been around, it was very old before the atomic bomb, so obviously there's been some sort of excess, but I wonder to what degree it's been like emphasis, emphasis, emphasis to by stuff like this. And it, it reminds me of more in general, right? Like, like men used to have like a very important and valuable function, which is you go to war. And this was sort of like more ingrained in sort of our atmospheric like, oh, I know Joe like 10 years ago died in the war. Like, that was sort of just the way that people operated. And, and now it's not very clear what men are like good for, you know, in this evolutionary way. So like, men have stopped playing this role 'cause we don't need that role anymore, but women are still playing a role that we need, which is reproduction. So I think there's just asymmetry. I think this is likely why we're seeing certain constraints of feminism going really big because like, what are men, what are men doing, you know, is the question. And you know, that sucks. It really sucks for men to like not have a clear reason why society should value that. And I agree that like the, the overabundance like this is, it's not, it sucks.

Vance Crowe [00:34:41] Yeah. I mean I think that that we're entering a phase where we will have to have some sort of giant phase change because the role of the burly man that locks in his feelings but goes and gets the work done because his body was actually a tool we seem to have transcended. And yet you, you can't, you still have all those people out there. You still have the genetic selection where you've got big guys that have this, the urges and the testosterone and the energy, and yet there's no place for them in a cosmopolitan world where you are valued for your white collar work or for the creativity that you have. And so I don't know how our society will deal with this because just like you were saying, feminism is evolving very quickly because women have have filled a different role and there's not this place for men and they're kind of in this weird amorphous state where 50% of them are gonna be just blocked out of it.

Aella [00:35:43] Right. And, and there's like a, a subtle distinction I want to make here. Like very often the response to this is sort of an anger at, you know, the progression of society. Like, oh, we're going down a bad path and you know, we need to bring it back to the old values. We need to make men, men again. And I I sympathize with this urge. I don't think that this is the way to go. Like when evolution moves, like say you get like a strong environmental change and then like a population is going to go through like a lot of die off and a lot of like struggles to, to be alive until they like modify to fit the environment. And I think this is what we're going through. We have a strong environment shift and the answer is not to undo the environment. It's impossible. There's too many incentives like wrapped up. We can't undo the internet and you know, not having war. So yeah, it's gonna, it is really shitty that we're now having to like these growing pains of a population, like trying to figure out how to modify themselves and leaving a whole lot of people behind. And I think it's like a fine line to walk between, like accepting that and moving forward and like figuring out how to integrate and also maintaining compassion for like, the damage that this is doing to people. But that doesn't mean that it's, it's the wrong motion that we're making.

Vance Crowe [00:36:57] Well, I mean this, I mean it also reflects to, to women as well, like in, in your line of work with sex work like that has always been a part of our society. Prostitution, it's all, it's certainly in the bible, it's in all different ancient books. But there's an interesting thing about the evolution towards women being more liberated in this way or being able to take control of their sexuality in that the, are you familiar with the concept of the euro burros, right? The, the snake that's eating its own tail? Yeah,

Aella [00:37:28] It's,

Vance Crowe [00:37:29] It's the, the, the symbol of,

Aella [00:37:30] I actually never heard it set all up before.

Vance Crowe [00:37:32] I think that's how you pronounce it,

Aella [00:37:34] UR or

Vance Crowe [00:37:35] Yeah, IRA burros. And it's, it's, so I like, it's an interesting thing because when I found out that I was having a daughter, I had a vision that would be as close to the angel singing and the image of the yura burros there.

Aella [00:37:50] Hmm.

Vance Crowe [00:37:50] And that being this, this very sacred role that women play for being able to create a universe. I mean, you are able to, with your body potentially able to create another human being.

Aella [00:38:06] It's crazy.

Vance Crowe [00:38:07] Do you think sex work in some way demeans your role as yra burros? Or is that one that you can choose not to fulfill? That's a really heavy question.

Aella [00:38:19] Yeah. I mean the, like, the word demeans has a lot packed into it. And like, according to some traditions like that is, it is demeaning, like a lot of people perceive what I do as demeaning myself. And in that, in, in that framework that that is true. Like, I understand how that would make sense given like the way that you view the world. I don't think this is true in the way that I view the world. Like for one, I could still reproduce and, and two, like it's, it's still fulfilling an important societal function. Like the word demeaning, like doesn't feel like it really resonates with the sort of things that I've experienced in sex work. It might for other people, but like I just don't really operate according to that way of viewing the world.

Vance Crowe [00:39:05] That's, I that's totally fair. Like the, the, when I use the word demeaning, I, that's probably, yeah, totally unfair. I guess my point about it is, do you feel as though the yura burros is the role that all women must fulfill and it, and it doesn't sound like it does.

Aella [00:39:23] So to clarify by boroughs do you mean reproduction?

Vance Crowe [00:39:27] I don't know actually. Like, I think that this symbol, it means more than just reproduction, but I, I don't know.

Aella [00:39:35] Well, I, and I'm not sure I understand fully what you mean. Could you, could you explain,

Vance Crowe [00:39:40] So you've had some very interesting writing about the differences between men and women and the, and we were just talking about like the gender roles. Do you think there is something intrinsic to being a woman that by doing sex work, it's, it takes you out of the league of the other women that you see around you that are not in sex work

Aella [00:40:05] Out of the league? I mean, yeah, it feels like I'm doing a different thing, like a different strategy or whatever. Like a lot of women like try to maintain resources by marriage, you know, and like, like hooking a man in like a singular, like a centralized source generator or something. And I'm, I'm very decentralized. I'm like the crypto of woman. Like, it's just like a little bit from a lot.

Vance Crowe [00:40:30] Wow, okay. That's super interesting. So I find you're, the way that you answer questions to be very interesting because you've, you're so full of energy and then you just, your answer is done. So it's very like, I'm, I'm like, okay, I've gotta like ask another question and, and, and I don't, I I don't necessarily like, I have lots of questions for you. The, the ones that strike me as interesting are when you said you did in person sex work and like, how would you compare the two between being on camera and being in person with people?

Aella [00:41:09] Well, first off, I, I enjoy like the, the, the perception of my like answer endingness, it feels like good, good, good to have myself described like that. But with in-person sex work, it, I, I like OnlyFans better than in person because I'm like really lazy and I like having my own flexibility, you know, not having like a schedule. But in regards to like fulfillment and if I had to argue something that's like quote unquote good for society, I would say in person sex work was better in that way because like, it feels like much more meaningful and more one-on-one is like much closer to therapy, I would say. And this other thing is more like being a professional, make an influencer or something, which feels like a little bit more disembodied to some degree.

Vance Crowe [00:42:01] Do people, when they're being so intimate, share with you the details of their life as to why they're connecting with you as opposed to interacting with the world? I I you're interacting with the world? I like, I I don't know how to say that. Do you understand what I mean instead?

Aella [00:42:17] Yeah. Like, yeah, like why, why are they, it's

Vance Crowe [00:42:20] Transactional, right? Yeah,

Aella [00:42:21] Yeah, yeah. Lots of reasons. A big, a big chunk of the demographics are married men who don't want to end their marriages or their lives. Like the stereotype would be like, man, he is 65, he's been married for 40 years, his wife has stopped having sex with him 10 years ago. He has like three kids in a house and retirement funds and he's just, and he's like desperate to have sexual intimacy of someone, but he doesn't want to cheat with someone at work because that would very confusing. It would be dirty, you know, maybe she would get pregnant. And so it was like, okay, I'm gonna see a sex worker who's removed. I get to see her have like satisfaction and come back and it's like not gonna damage or threaten or anything. And I still get my ease refill. That's like, like the stereotype of, of a lot of these men. Some of them are younger, some of them have difficulty getting women in the first place. Some of them, I mean, you know, pandemic makes it a little bit harder. So that's a bonus from my end. Yeah. Yeah. It's just people, sometimes people, it's a, they're normal. They have normal lives, they have girlfriends, some of them are cheating on like active girlfriends by watching OnlyFans or something. And something similar to like a pornographic addiction. So that would be closer to like, I get to have an interactive porn thing. Like I get to request very specific sort of movements. Yeah. It's, it's a bunch of different incentives.

Vance Crowe [00:43:45] And has that ever come back, has their own personal lives ever come back to bite? You? Are, are, did they ever drag you into the problems that they're not facing by visiting you

Aella [00:43:56] So far? No. I'm pretty good at keeping boundaries. I, I tend to be like more of like a distant kind of, believe it or not, despite what I'm saying, I'm a little bit more distant than most people. I have occasionally seen clients I've seen like, like online in my spheres of interaction and I'm like, woo, I'm not sure if I should avoid you or not. It's people you wouldn't guess it's just normal people. It's just everyone. Like I'm sure you've seen somebody who's seen a sex worker. It's very likely.

Vance Crowe [00:44:29] Oh, I have no, no doubt about that. So I worked in the, in the shipping world, right? So I was a deckhand and when you get around with guys that have been at sea for three months or they're, they're going out for, you know, basically a year, they aren't gonna go home. There's a whole bunch of that. And in particular, 'cause you're, you're coming into ports where you, it's not like you could build a relationship or something like that. So that, that was yeah, a component of, of a world that I lived in. And it was one of those things where you looked at the people that were doing it and you think, well that would never be me. I would never make those decisions. But if you got yourself into a life position where you were isolated from so many other people, now that I'm an adult and I, I know the value of intimacy, I can completely understand how they, how they got on that path.

Aella [00:45:16] Yeah, makes sense. Well,

Vance Crowe [00:45:20] So what would you say is the comparison choice for men making? So I, I'm, I run a network and in the network I, I posted, I was gonna do this interview and the a conversation got started around the idea of what is the comparable decision for men to make where it's, I'm making a decision about my career and there's no going back from this. And one of the thoughts that got brought up was like MMA fighting, right? Where you're going in and you're exposing yourself to being hit or hurt or any of those things. Is that a fair comparison? Is that one you would make?

Aella [00:46:00] That's an interesting comparison. I would not have thought that. I mean, maybe that's true. It's, there's something like maybe a little bit more absolute about pornography in the sense that like if you do porn and it's sort of like assuming that it's known like your, your image is out there that is irreversible, whereas it's possible to go through an MA fight without recurring damage. But that is interesting. It is, it is also different in the fact that like the pornography problem is socially induced. So it's like you get, like, everybody doesn't like you if you've done the thing. Whereas there's not sort of a social stigma against MMA. When you asked for an analogy, I started thinking like, what are things that stigma has for men? Drug dealing, maybe gambling to some degree.

Vance Crowe [00:46:45] I feel like there's far less shame associated with those, right? There's a lot more of like, eh, I probably shouldn't do it. Probably not a great guy, but I don't,

Aella [00:46:54] I don't, yeah. As one, I remember this is probably different in different circles, but I remember hearing the conversation recently where some, like somebody had had gay sex and they were bisexual and that caused 'em to be stigmatized from having like straight relationships.

Vance Crowe [00:47:11] Oh, I, I would believe that a hundred percent. Yeah. I, in fact, I can remember being in college and, and talking with, with girls about would you, does a, a man that has sex with another man one time, is he gay or not? And I remember women saying, no, he is not gay, but he's not, not, I'm like, I'm not into it anymore. And I, and all of the men said, yeah,

Aella [00:47:33] One

Vance Crowe [00:47:33] Time then you are, you are categorically gay from that point on, which like that always struck me like, there's not very many things that you can do where you do it one time and that is what you are considered by other people.

Aella [00:47:45] Yeah, that makes sense because yeah, because I was thinking like, what is it shameful for a man to be, it's like, it is not shameful for a man to be a drug dealer, but it's shameful to be feminine or to be like submissive or gay or weak, you know, like non masculine in some, so, so like gay sex is like one example of the way some people think about it for the record, I, I've dated people who have had gay sex. I just wanna put it out there that there's women who will still be totally fine with it if that's what you like.

Vance Crowe [00:48:14] Yeah, I mean my sense is that you're gay if you, if you wanna be gay, if like if, yeah, not even one if you're gay, right? Like if, if that's like, I think human sexuality is one of those things where we'd like to believe that it is very ordinary and that it's very clear lines are drawn, but I don't think that's the way human psychology works.

Aella [00:48:35] Right? And it's another problem with like the word versus like the concept. I, I find often that like people are like, am I gay? Is this not like, does this count as fitting under this label? And if you need to communicate with other people, like labels are nice, but like ultimately the labels are do not change what reality is. Like, it doesn't matter what you call it. If you have, like, sometimes you feel a little bit drawn to men, but mostly you're drawn to women except when these certain circumstances are met, then that thing is the truth. It doesn't matter the way that you describe it. Like it does not gonna change the thing that you experience. So it's like, in some sense it's totally irrelevant. Like if we call it gay or not, like who the fuck cares.

Vance Crowe [00:49:19] Do you, are most of your friends as I, Ima have you ever taken the big five personality test?

Aella [00:49:25] Yes.

Vance Crowe [00:49:25] And so are you high on the openness scale?

Aella [00:49:28] Yeah, 99%.

Vance Crowe [00:49:29] 99%, that's right. And are most of the people around you that high on the openness scale?

Aella [00:49:34] Pretty high? Yeah. I don't know if that high, but we're all very high on the openness scale. You really like big five, huh?

Vance Crowe [00:49:41] Oh, I'm, I'm super into that one. That one explained a lot about me. Yeah. To the extent that when I took the test and I got the answers back, I remember like, I printed it out and I was reading it and then all of a sudden I was like, I don't want anybody to see this. I'm like clutching it close to me. And, and, and yeah, I mean really the only person that I shared it with for the first, I don't know, maybe three or four months I had, it was my wife and then we were like, what do you think? You look at this one and I'll look at yours and we'll see. And so I probably put too much stock in it, but it answered things about who I am and how I think about things in a way that I hadn't really understood. Like I'm a very like, pleasant, outgoing, happy person, but I am a one on the agreeable scale. So like I, if I see a problem, I can't, it's like everything in my bot tells me, you know, stop and let's resolve this problem.

Aella [00:50:35] Cool. That's really nice.

Vance Crowe [00:50:37] Well, I don't think it's cool if you don't like argue like I'm the type of person that like, that's true. I, I, you know, I don't mind the conflict. It's like something enjoyable for me. But you're around

Aella [00:50:46] People, so, so you're like your internet experience, like pretty spicy.

Vance Crowe [00:50:51] What do you mean?

Aella [00:50:52] Like, are you like full, like I, because I identify with this, like I feel like I'm like drawn towards the, the this and then I wanna like stick my hand into the, the place where people are fighting.

Vance Crowe [00:51:04] Yeah, I mean I, so, you know, if we think about it in terms of like the, the yin and the yang, right? Where the yin is order and the yang is chaos. I love exploring chaos to the extent that it's, it's dangerous for me. Like I, I have to really think about like, is this an experience I want? Because once I'm drawn into an experience, I will run around in it. And, and adulthood was really about me figuring out what doors not to even open.

Aella [00:51:34] Hmm. That's a, that's a great, it makes me wanna watch like a movie about your life or something just with that, that's a pitch.

Vance Crowe [00:51:45] So what do you like to talk about? I watched a lot of your interviews and I feel like one of the things that would be difficult about your life is that you are so novel because of sex work that that ends up being the impetus behind why people interview you. But yet if you, because if you were just a writer, I probably would've been willing to interview you, but I wouldn't have been like, I gotta pay full attention to this. So what is it like to have that be a thing that people are always like, Hey, can I talk with you about this?

Aella [00:52:15] Yeah, so I don't mind, there's like some need in me to feel like valued in conversations because like I kind of feel unaware of how to become valuable in a conversation otherwise. So having sex work makes me sometimes feel a little bit dehumanized in regards to like how people are interested in it, but it's sort of worth it for me because I feel like I have a role to play, like I can, oh, I can provide something interesting for people to talk about. So I don't mind it. Like I'm always like coming on interviews to, to talk about it specifically. You know, I'm doing this voluntarily and it feels a little bit like I accidentally stumbled into an expert role. Like OnlyFans recently got very popular, and I happen to have the career trajectory such that I am in the correct place to talk well about OnlyFans and also am very successful at it. So it feels sort of like the phenomenon where somebody happens to be in the right place at the right time, and suddenly everybody asks 'em all the questions. So that's fine. And I feel like it's gonna dry up at some point and like the interest is gonna turn to something else. I get asked a lot about like the psychedelics enlightenment thing. It's like, was the last phase before this one, so I don't mind,

Vance Crowe [00:53:24] Your directness strikes me as somebody that's similar to, I don't know if you follow Yosha Bach Plin on Twitter, but he's, I know him. So Yosha and I talk every now and then. He is been on the podcast, and I am struck by his level of clarity in the way that he says things like, it's much like yours, unadorned. And th this may be an odd question, but do you think that you have autistic like tendencies with the way that you

Aella [00:53:54] Yeah, I'm, I'm have Asperger's.

Vance Crowe [00:53:58] Do you?

Aella [00:53:59] Most likely, so I have not been officially diagnosed, but there is very, it's very likely that I do,

Vance Crowe [00:54:05] That's what I thought. I, I, you, you remind me very much of engineers that I know that are high in the openness scale, that they're, they're capable of building things and, and focusing very deeply, but the clarity, like when you ask them a question, it's impossible for them to adorn the answer. They, they don't, they don't know how. And so therefore their direct answer comes off as almost humorous to people because it's so direct. And I find that your answers to be that, that way now. And I love it. Like all of my friends are, are engineering open people. So

Aella [00:54:39] Yeah, it's my favorite way to be. I feel like I don't really understand how to operate otherwise. I was doing interviews for a while, I was interviewing people who claim to be enlightened, and it was a shock to me to, like, I would ask a question, I would ask a very specific question. I was like, do you experience X? And then they would talk like 30 minutes about everything else. And I'm like, that's, I'm, I, I just want to know the answer. And then I would just like, wait. And I'd be like, but do you experience X though? It's like, I don't know, I don't really understand. People seem to have like a different way of approaching like, different goals in conversations. I'm trying to learn how to be better though, because like in interviews I realize that likely people would like me to start talking more like about things like unprompted. So I've been trying to do that sort of like what I'm doing right now.

Vance Crowe [00:55:26] How are you at reading facial cues? Are you good at being able to tell the emotional state of other people?

Aella [00:55:33] I think so, yeah. So I, I I I I'm very likely autistic. And then there's also some things which seem to not fit for me. Like I seem to be pretty in touch emotionally. I tend to be less affected by it than others. As in like, I think I feel like more okay if other people are angry, but I, I haven't noticed that I seem to be particularly unaware of other people's faces yet.

Vance Crowe [00:56:00] No, I think it strikes me the same way with Yosha. He's very capable of understanding the deep emotional lives of people, but it's somehow, like you described his, he's got two selves, one that he's experiencing and one that he's able to observe the experience with. And for me, I don't have that. Like I, I often make the example of if I were to ask you about a room that maybe you and I have both in or been in before, or a building that we've both been in before and I asked you to draw it, how would you go about drawing a room so that you and I would both know it? What, what, what, what, where where would your mind go?

Aella [00:56:40] I would visualize it in memory.

Vance Crowe [00:56:42] From which place? From from in the experience or above the experience?

Aella [00:56:48] I think standing in a corner of the room.

Vance Crowe [00:56:50] Oh, interesting. Okay. I didn't expect you to say that. So tell me more. If you were gonna draw it, you would then draw the walls as though you see them?

Aella [00:57:01] Yeah.

Vance Crowe [00:57:02] Interesting.

Aella [00:57:03] Do is this, do you not have this?

Vance Crowe [00:57:06] No, I am the same way. So, but a lot of the people that I spend time with, and I think a lot of people that are in that autistic scale or in that genre, a lot of times they think about the world from above like an architecture schematic. And so they're able to draw it from above and then can transpose themselves inside of it and kind of see it. My experience of it is I can't draw it from above. I can only draw it from the experience

Aella [00:57:31] Really,

Vance Crowe [00:57:32] But I can, I can bring on with it like extreme shades of color, I could tell you no, that color's off. That's not quite right. I could tell you if the smells were wrong, I could tell you if the sounds were correct, but I can't do it from above. So like I have an experiential mind as opposed to maybe an analytical mind

Aella [00:57:51] That doesn't seem true based on talking to you.

Vance Crowe [00:57:54] Hmm. And

Aella [00:57:54] There's something you said earlier in the thing, you, I forgot what it was. Okay, I'll come back to it. But I had a, I had an example of something you'd said, but I'll remember it later.

Vance Crowe [00:58:05] So the reason I asked, I actually asked that question to a lot of people because I think that it brings in a layer of how people's minds work. And I think when you start to understand how does this person perceive or build mental models, it's very interesting to me. And I think there's probably more than two just above or inside of, but those are the two that I'm the most aware of.

Aella [00:58:27] I'm curious. So, so when I think about communicating it to somebody else, I think about drawing it there. But I am notoriously obsessed with floor plans. I have tweeted about my love of floor plans before, I used to obsessively draw floor plans when I was a kid. I have spent so many ti like hours like making like, like hypothetical floor plans and trying to arrange it. I love thinking about things from the top. And so I'm, I'm like really interested in this because like, it felt to me like there was a difference in goal. Like if I wanna communicate to you like what the room was like then it seems like just like a visual from the inside seems like the best way to do that. But if I want anything else, like, like where in the house was it than a floor plan seems much better. Yeah,

Vance Crowe [00:59:08] The game itself is much better in person because what I would do is I would hand you a piece of paper and I would say just, just draw the room that we're in. I see. And you watch people

Aella [00:59:17] Like I see

Vance Crowe [00:59:18] They, they, it's, it's just like being left-handed or goofy foot or you know, like left eye or right eye dominant because like they don't even think that there is another way to draw this. I see. They just do it the way that they, they do it.

Aella [00:59:31] That's a really cool idea. Have you tried putting in a Twitter poll?

Vance Crowe [00:59:36] No. Huh? Uhuh? No. We should work on that and try and figure out the right wording because it's hard enough to explain it just in in words. So visualizing things actually makes me think of something I wanted to ask you about. So I don't know, have you used a virtual reality headset very much?

Aella [00:59:52] Yes, I have one of those.

Vance Crowe [00:59:54] Do you, so how often do you use it? What do you use it for?

Aella [00:59:59] So I use it every day for exercise. I do audio trip with weights on my arms, but occasionally I use it for other things.

Vance Crowe [01:00:06] Have you used it for sex work?

Aella [01:00:09] No, I have not.

Vance Crowe [01:00:11] So there is something really interesting about the VR headset. Like I, you know, there, you can't live in the internet and not see naked photos. And if you're a man, like you're going to see them, you know, somewhat frequently. But when I had the first experience of putting on that headset and watching a YouTube video where there was a singer right in front of me and the, it was high fidelity imagery and it, it was as though I could touch her. To me that was one of those doors that I slammed shut and locked because I was like, to me, if you go use the VR headset for pornography, your brain cannot distinguish that you did not actually have sex with that person. And to me that seemed like a very a, a very dangerous bridge to cross.

Aella [01:00:57] Wait, so people go into IRL sex stuff all the time, like kink clubs, you can go to kink clubs and watch people have sex. Do you feel similarly like afraid of that?

Vance Crowe [01:01:06] Yeah, I mean, I think like it would be something that I would avoid, right? It would be something that like, I would say, Hey, my marriage, this is just not an area that I'm gonna go towards.

Aella [01:01:16] I see. Okay. So for you it feels like closer to cheating than, or like

Vance Crowe [01:01:22] Yeah. Like a

Aella [01:01:23] Threat to your marriage than other thing. Okay.

Vance Crowe [01:01:24] Well, and not even even so much a threat as much as it is like, you know, a commitment or, or like a, you know, my wife and I are very open with one another, so for me to like have to hold something that I wouldn't want to tell her is something that I really, that's like my barometer, right? Like where where is the line of something that I wouldn't want my wife to know that I'm doing then I should probably back the hell out of that.

Aella [01:01:48] Okay.

Vance Crowe [01:01:50] But any case, the, the larger point was the VR I think is going to, to radically alter the way that people experience pornography.

Aella [01:02:00] Yeah, I I've been hearing that for a while now. I think like five or six years ago there was like a big push for vr. I think you're right, it might, this might be like a bigger thing. 'cause like the Oculus is so easily accessible. Like I never used VR until I think I bought it like a month ago or something. Like, I think finally it's starting to hit everybody's households and, and you're right, this might be the time where we see changes. I think I'm like a little bit less, i I view it like as a little less exciting thing than you maybe, but maybe it's also because I feel like going to King clubs and watching people have sex to be like a little less exciting.

Vance Crowe [01:02:35] And when you say that you go to an experience like that, are you experiencing it like we talked about before with the floor plans versus the experience? Like what is it about the, that experience that would be something you'd be drawn towards doing?

Aella [01:02:49] Which experience?

Vance Crowe [01:02:50] Going to a, to like a kink club for example.

Aella [01:02:53] I would just like, like hang out with friends and sometimes there's dancing at kink clubs. I, I haven't like really recently, I used to when I was younger, the novelty, it's like, ooh, like what's of people having sex in front of each other? Yeah, I've been to like orgies. It's, it's, it's kind of fun.

Vance Crowe [01:03:13] And are there any doors that you've passed through that you would say, Hey, I've been down that door and I don't recommend it?

Aella [01:03:22] N no, I, it would, it would be conditional on the person. Like, I, like this is basically universal to all experiences. Like all experiences like in including like quite excruciating ones I would recommend to them, depending on the person, what their needs are. For some people doing like work, like more extreme stuff than I have would be awesome for them. Like I know someone actually who is with way more extreme stuff in every conceivable way than me, and that's exactly what she wants. Like she loves it. This, that's is her life. And I could never, so yeah, it just depends on who you are, like what you feel like. So, and whenever somebody asks me for advice, like what they should do, I first check like, what, who are you, what are your needs? Like what are you already comfortable with? Like, what are your incentives? And then I give advice based on that.

Vance Crowe [01:04:06] And as you think about your experience, if you were around the Christian faith, particularly people that were, you know, v very devout or very much about, these are the rules and this is how you get yourself to heaven. D does that, do the, do the 800 verses that you have in your mind, do they play in the back of your mind as you're having these experiences saying, I was told not to do this

Aella [01:04:30] Like a little bit, but I don't feel shame anymore at all because it feels like so clearly fine to me. I think like if I were trying to make myself do something, I felt a little bit uncomfortable with that I might be like, oh, they said that for a reason. But it seems like so clearly good that it's just, I can't even, oh, thank you got food. It, it, so it just, it's not, but sometimes I feel like a little bit ironically like, oh it's so funny that like, if only these people could see me now as like in the middle of like a heaving mass of naked bodies. Like that would be funny.

Vance Crowe [01:05:08] So when you, when people come to you and they ask for this advice, are, do you think that this is a path that many people should go down? Like IIII don't really know how to ask the question other than maybe the, maybe the blunt way, which is if you had a daughter, would you want her to go into the line of work that you've gone into?

Aella [01:05:30] I mean, it depends. I went into the line of work I would like my children to not, actually, I'm not sure if I say that. I was gonna say not need to work at all. I don't know if that's true. I would like to have my children in a place where they never had to try to do something that they were uncomfortable with. It's like, I, I did this because like, I didn't have anywhere else to go in, in like a, in a sense. And I would prefer my child not to have to make a decision out of that. I think I would be okay with it given it felt, I felt really convinced that this is good for her, as in this is like aligned with the type of personality she has and like the best option for her out of the other options. I don't think I have like a kind of a disgust reaction towards thinking that, again, I'm not another, so it's possible once I have kids, the feelings will change.

Vance Crowe [01:06:16] You mentioned like not feeling shame. This is an interesting thing, right? Like I I think a lot about the difference between embarrassment and shame, right? And embarrassment being, I was walking with a tray of food and I tripped and I spilled it everywhere. And I get up and my face is red and people clap and I maybe take a bow to like signal. This is a behavior that is different than me. So you're separating yourself, right? And shame being that thing that you do it. And as you experience it, there's no like standing up to take a fake bow. There's no, you just wanna hide your head and, and cover your eyes and get away from people. You wanna crawl into a hole I've always thought of, of shame as a very important role in society to, to maintain the, the layers of culture. Not changing too quickly, but you just said something very interesting that you don't feel shame. So what do you think about shame and its role in controlling culture?

Aella [01:07:16] So I'm gonna use a small analogy for this. I, I'm not religious if, if somebody listening is religious, let's imagine a religion that you don't agree with, like Islam or something. Islam was like very useful for a lot of their culture. Like, it, it gave them like certain behavioral norms that made them more successful in the way that they operated. And this was like, good for that. And they had to like believe it only really worked. They like believed in, you know, all of the, the rules and whatever, but it's not like really true. So something can be like useful in a context, but also not necessarily true or useful in other contexts. And I think the same is very true about shame. I think that shame is, you're right, it is useful for society in a similar way that like ancient religions were useful for their society. I'm not gonna say like, oh, you shouldn't feel shame willy-nilly because like maybe that's like what you need for that, that context. But again, I don't think this is an absolute thing. I think that this is sort of like an invented, I'm, I don't really support that word, but like a constructed emotion that's designed to change your behavior to fit with the whole. And I don't think that it's like tied into anything like really meaningful or true. Like ultimately what, what is there to be shamed about? Like you're just doing what makes sense for you in the moment, given your personality and incentives and the things you've experienced. Like really what else were you going to do? And so if in from this perspective it doesn't make sense to feel shame and I feel no shame.

Aella [01:08:52] That seems to be true. I'm just checking to see if there's any issue there

Vance Crowe [01:08:55] That that's inter like, so in the Jordan ian kind of way of thinking, he describes sin not as like a defiance of god, but a missing of the mark, right? Like where, where it's actually an archery term describing that when you sin you are missing where you were supposed to be headed. Do you think with the, with not having shame, do you still have a true sense of where you are supposed to be or what you, you should be doing?

Aella [01:09:27] So, so those are interesting words like supposed to and should, like, there's a lot in those words it sort of indicates that there's some sort of standard like could be like God and morality, you know, has like of the thing and then you're supposed to like in contrast to that. Or maybe like supposed to in the fact of like, I designed a plan for my life and am I adhering to that? But like my point is that those words assume like some sort of external framework that I either am matching or I'm not. And I don't have that. So like those words don't really make sense because I, there's nothing for me to supposed to do really. I, I enjoy, like I have goals that I like and I have those goals because like I check inside myself and I feel good when I move towards them, but I don't think I feel like I'm supposed to do anything or that I should do anything.

Vance Crowe [01:10:18] And do you think, well, what do you think if, do you think culture is moving more in the direction that you're already at? Or is that you're just a rare person that stands outside on the periphery and the world is gonna go where it's gonna go?

Aella [01:10:33] I'm not sure. So I know that like a lot of people perceive the world as doing something similar to what I'm doing or like moving in that direction. And I think that this is actually kind of untrue or misleading. I think that a lot of people are using some sort of similar ideas to me like, oh, you shouldn't have to do it. There is no truth. Whatever. As a way to like sort of force in their idea of truth. I know this is like a little bit vague in other

Vance Crowe [01:10:59] No, this is great. Keep going. This is great.

Aella [01:11:01] I, yeah, I, I just, sometimes I hear like, people talk about this and I, and I think that it's sort of like they're, they're like sort of hiding actually like full structures and other types of shame inside of saying that there should not be shame. And so I, I don't think I identify with that. And I think if that is where the world is going, if I'm correct about that, then that there's just another version slightly more hidden of like, like the religious styles of the past. And I think it would be unusual in that regard.

Vance Crowe [01:11:33] Wow. Okay. So that, that actually strikes in me the concept of, so my belief is I think the, the amount of chaos that has happened in the world in the last, certainly the last nine months, probably the last 20 years, that I think that religion is going to come back in a big way. And I, I don't think that's projection. 'cause I'm, I'm not a particularly devout person. I'm, I'm definitely open to the idea of the church because I think the fact that it's so Lindy means that it had some values there or some wisdom that is worth deeply trying to understand before I write it off, like the way that I did in college. But I get the sense that people will move more towards that structured center even if it forces them to do things or agree with things that they don't like because it will help make sense of a world that has become too chaotic for multiple generations to be an uncertainty in a way that we've not been in the past.

Aella [01:12:38] Yeah, and this might also be true, like the world is very big and there's lots of different movements that are doing different things with different incentives. And it's possible that like, that is exactly what's going to happen with some people. I don't know to what degree it makes sense to describe that as like an overall mo notion of culture. Like maybe it does, I I have also some friends who are going trad and I'm like, why, why are you becoming religious? Another thing that I, I don't know,

Vance Crowe [01:13:05] What does that mean going trad? You're the second, second guess to use the word. But I think there are a lot of my viewers that have no idea what it means to be tra

Aella [01:13:14] I I'm not gonna do it justice, but I can try, I, when there's a lot of people in my mes who are like trad and they, those are like value women giving birth and men being the provider, like sort of a traditional way of being. I think they kind of do a little bit more like meta sort of like, we're like intentionally doing this as opposed to it being put onto us by our culture.

Vance Crowe [01:13:37] Wow, I didn't even know that. Okay.

Aella [01:13:41] Yeah. I I could be, I could be

Vance Crowe [01:13:43] Wrong. That's the thing that I think is growing that, and I didn't, I didn't realize that's what trad meant. I, I knew it meant traditional values, but I didn't think about it at the meta level. And I think that the reason that that is so important is because that that that choice component, right? It wasn't like you were just raised in the church and you're just perpetuating the beliefs that were handed to you. It was like you left and you decided to come back and then when you came back, you came back on your own terms and so it means something different.

Aella [01:14:12] Yeah, I, I like that idea. The thing that I don't like about it, it's a lot of treads, at least the ones I've encountered might not be all of them tend to really hate me and my sex work. Oh

Vance Crowe [01:14:24] Yeah, that's big, big part

Aella [01:14:25] Of that. Yeah. That's the problem, right? Don't normally my I I I'm very, I like movements regardless of what they are, as long as they feel sort of like inclusive of differences or sort of like, this is what I want and it's okay if you do something else, but like movements that feel reliant on other people who are not like accepting your world's view needs to accept your worldview, then I'm like less a fan of it. So I like the idea of Chad, as long as you, like, you're okay with me doing my thing over here.

Vance Crowe [01:14:55] Yeah. And I think that that like, that, that was in a point that I wanted to talk about, which was the, just for the, in the first, for the first time maybe ever, I've started seeing people push back on sex work as work, right? And so from the moment I was in college where even though it was a Catholic university, they were saying we need to get rights to people that are in prostitution. It needs to be legalized, it should be safer, it should be done in these more institutionalized ways. And so from that run for the next 20 years, I never heard anybody say anything other than that unless they were some kind of crotchety old religious person. And now I'm watching a whole new front move in where there's people saying we shouldn't normalize this and in fact we should stigmatize it. Yes. And I I actually wondered as we were talking like, or before we, we started talking like, is there a, is there a downside to showing the normalness of a person that lives such a, such a different life? And I, you know, I I ultimately came to the conclusion that I was deeply curious about who you were. But I think there are a lot of people that want to push you out now.

Aella [01:16:07] Yeah, that seems true. I think I suspect that a lot of the anti-sex work stuff was present and we're only seeing it more because of the proliferation of OnlyFans is my guess. Like, like if someone listening didn't know OnlyFans, like has a massive up jump in visibility,

Vance Crowe [01:16:24] Talk about what it is from the beginning as though somebody doesn't know what it is.

Aella [01:16:27] Yeah. OnlyFans is like a site like Patreon where basically you make an account and then people can access what you post to your account for a price which you can set. And then you have a feed like kind of like a Facebook page or something, except it's a paid Facebook page that people can access. And, and they got really, really big this year starting in around January, February, March, and it's been all over the news celebrities are joining it and there's been a lot more discourse. And so that's why I'm like wondering like maybe that is what is triggering like more visibility of the people who are anti-sex work.

Vance Crowe [01:17:03] Yeah, I think that's probably, that's probably true. I didn't realize that Coronavirus and OnlyFans kind of came together at the, at the same time and there was probably a lot more loneliness.

Aella [01:17:12] Well, yeah, the argument is that only that Coronavirus created the success of OnlyFans. I don't know how that's true, but some people say that.

Vance Crowe [01:17:21] So when you're not tripping on acid or doing your profession or writing, what else is makes up who you are and how you spend your time?

Aella [01:17:35] I am pretty, pretty unproductive. I've been in the chess lately, as has a lot of people. I'm on clubhouse, so the app, I don't know if you know it,

Vance Crowe [01:17:46] I'm vaguely familiar with it.

Aella [01:17:48] Yeah, it's an app that's just a whole lot of things that make me very mad. So of course I have to go on there and like be mad every day. So that's very fun. And then I hang out with my roommates a lot.

Vance Crowe [01:17:59] And you travel, I was reading that you were, yeah, I believe you said you were braless in Saudi Arabia as as I remember the title of the blog. Where are you going in the Middle East and why of all places does a person like you go to such such a cloistered place?

Aella [01:18:14] Well, I was going to South Africa and so I was, I stopped Saudi Arabia briefly on the way there. Yeah. I go festival hopping, fell in with some hippies a few years ago and they just sort of travel around in like this sort of homeless hippie communal sort of deal, which is really great. I like it.

Vance Crowe [01:18:40] Just kind of wrapping up, one of the questions that I would like to ask people that I think are, are kind of cerebral thinkers is one that's kind of hard, but it's called the Peter Teel paradox. And so the Peter Teel paradox is, tell me one thing that you believe is true that almost no one you know agrees with you on. And the reason this is such an interesting question is because if you say something people already agree with, then you know you failed. And then if you say something nobody's agreed with, now you've gotta figure your way out of this paradox and be able to explain it in a compelling way.

Aella [01:19:15] Right. I love that question. It's very similar. I have like the deck deck of questions. Ask hold io.

Vance Crowe [01:19:21] Oh, I have the, I meant to ask you about that. We should talk about that. Yeah.

Aella [01:19:25] Yeah. And I think my favorite question in there is what's the most controversial opinion you hold up on your peer group, which is I think, similar in in heart to that one. Yeah, awesome question. I like that. It depends on who I'm around. Like, and I'm afraid to say some of my most controversial opinions because it takes a lot of, 'cause some of them are like activate disgust. So like I, I don't have a strong disgust trigger or if I do, it doesn't really influence my beliefs. So I think some things are fine that some people find like really horrifying and I'm like, I'm not sure. I wanna just say, yeah, like for example, there's like sex things like as long as consenting adults, you can do whatever you want.

Vance Crowe [01:20:13] I would say your interview has been pretty much a Peter Teel paradox. The whole, the whole one really, I think, I think you can ask pretty clearly. I mean like, I think just the, the idea of your openness, I think that we're talking about a subject that every single listener will have some experience with, right? They, they absolutely have opinions on and they definitely have some sort of mechanism through which they make the decisions about whether you're a good person or a bad person or a an exciting person or person to avoid. So I think that's true. Your whole time here has been one, one long Peter Teel paradox. Yeah. So tell talk about asshole. 'cause I thought that game was fascinating.

Aella [01:20:53] Oh, thank you. Yeah. As, as you know, I am autistic, which makes it hard for me to operate at parties in a way that other people don't think is weird and also I don't think is boring. So for a while I would go to parties and be like, why? What am I here? What's the point of this? I need to know like, the goal of conversations. So I started asking people questions, like weird questions I could think of. I would just walk up to somebody and be like, Hey, like if you had to have sex with a cow, would you rather the cow be dead or alive? Like stuff like that. And then eventually I started writing 'em down so I could remember them. And eventually I started cutting that on little cards. And then eventually I had a deck of like 300 cards of just questions I was collecting or inventing. And then people started telling me like, if you were selling this, I would buy it because these questions are so good. And a lot of the questions came out of research. So I would, I do my Twitter polls, right? And so I have 1500 or so Twitter polls. And so I checked like, which ones generated the most discussion, which ones like were the most divisive, like 10 to be 50 50 and like ranked them all. So I took like the top ones out of there and like, and then I play tested them for a whole lot. I'm just telling you the whole, telling you the whole process of how I did this. This is great what

Vance Crowe [01:22:02] You wanted to know. I, because it was a profound list of questions. Like there's nobody that could li because as you're reading the questions, you have to ask yourself each one of them. So just the experience of looking at Ask Asshole, you, you're like, wow, I I have to grapple with this. Like the one that I thought was really interesting was talk about it something that your parents did that you don't agree with, right? Like that everyone is going to have an opinion on that. Yeah. And it's

Aella [01:22:29] Gonna

Vance Crowe [01:22:29] Generate a conversation that's gonna bring things out in people. I thought that the particular insight was that every one of the questions that you asked, you almost immediately have an answer and then you kind of have to be like, wait, is that actually what I think? I don't know.

Aella [01:22:44] Oh, that's such a great compliment. That's like the all I've ever wanted to hear about those cards.

Vance Crowe [01:22:50] Well, I and, and the fact that we're talking about you being autistic and that being a function of why you did that, like this makes a lot of sense to me.

Aella [01:22:59] Yeah, it's, it's great to help conversations become less shitty.

Vance Crowe [01:23:05] So what's one of your favorite questions? I mean, you already asked the cow one, but we'll go past that one. I have a lot of,

Aella [01:23:10] I mean, what's the most controversial opinion you hold upon your peer group? That one's really good. I also like, given nobody will ask you the question, what is a question you would refuse to answer?

Vance Crowe [01:23:22] Oh, interesting. Yeah. For me, I'm very reluctant to answer. I, I am highly open about my opinions and what I think and who I am, but my wife is the, you know, yin yang opposite, very, very quiet. So I'm, I'm always very reluctant to answer any questions about what she thinks about things because she will tell you that I never get it right. So I'm, I'm always very reluctant on that.

Aella [01:23:49] That's a pretty good one. That's a wholesome one.

Vance Crowe [01:23:53] Yeah. But I'm also pretty good at this game, so I could probably come up with wholesome answers like that forever.

Aella [01:23:59] Well that's cheating or not following the spirit or something. I should install a rule like don't no wholesomeness.

Vance Crowe [01:24:08] Well this has been a, a really interesting, engaging, fascinating conversation and you are so open that I, I hope you'll come back on. I'm sure that now that we've done the initial thing, I'll have many, many questions I want to ask you because of your unorthodox take on things.

Aella [01:24:25] Yeah. We should see what, what the people who watch this, how, how they take it and maybe riff off of that.

Vance Crowe [01:24:33] Yeah. And I think that, I think that this'll be one that that'll appreciate, right? Like it's totally off the beaten path and that's what my, my listeners say that they like the most. So

Aella [01:24:42] That's, that's really cool. I'm glad.

Vance Crowe [01:24:44] So if people wanted to find out about Asshole or follow you on Twitter or anything that you wanted to share, where would they do that?

Aella [01:24:52] Yeah, my Twitter is Aila girl ala a ELL, ACORE g irl. If you remove the underscore you're gonna get pornography. So make sure you put the underscore there and my website is knowing less.com and yeah, you can find everything from, from those things.

Vance Crowe [01:25:11] Well, thank you so much for joining me and we'll have you back on again. Awesome.

Aella [01:25:14] Thank you so much. This is great.